Erasing a Sub-Par Sketch: What Say You?

[monkeymcgee]

This situation is raising some interesting discussion on some other venues, so I thought I'd see what you all think about it.

The subject is this sketch:



The owner of the sketch erased the sketch and is now selling the "blank" on eBay for someone to get a new sketch drawn on it.

Details here: Scoundrel Art Community • View topic - Check out this ebay listing

I think there's several things going on here, so I break it down like this:

1. I understand the owner's frustration with that sketch in a product he paid $100 for. I think any of us who have opened wax for sketch cards have gotten some that are in this category.

2. I would never erase a sketch cards, simply because it's a unique piece of art no matter how crappy it may be.

3. Also, once you've created this "blank", you are messing with the integrity of the product. If someone else draws a sketch on it and it goes out into the wild, how would anyone know that the new card was not packed-out and is in fact modified?

4. By selling the blank (or attempting to), the owner is encouraging #3

5. I don't think a satisfactory effort was made by the artist when creating this card

6. I don't understand why Topps would accept and pack out a card like this in a product that MSRP was ~$80 (that's what I read, anyway).

What do you guys think? Ever done this or been tempted to?

[PDawson21]

NO IDEA on any of this but it seems like Numbering it may help?

[PitViper]

I’ve seen crappy artist sell unsigned blanks – which is just as shady in my book.

But I would have to agree with #6 – as a company I would be embarrassed to have my name on some of these “sketches”

[t2554]

It's unethical and just plain wrong. I hope no sketch card artist would agree to something like thst.

[natbornkiller]

number 6

thats swhy i am to this date hesitant to buy any topps non sports product

[marino5084]

Originally Posted by natbornkiller

number 6

thats swhy i am to this date hesitant to buy any topps non sports product

I'm an a$$ man but I gotta say I like the new avatar.

Oh and I have no opinion on the sketch.

[mcguirem13]

I have never thought of this, nor would I EVER do this. Very shady. I guess it's ok if you're going to keep the card after you have someone else draw on it but re-selling it would be tricky...

[jadams]

Bush league.

sketch [skech]
noun
1.
a simply or hastily executed drawing or painting, especially a preliminary one, giving the essential features without the details.
2.
a rough design, plan, or draft, as of a book.
3.
a brief or hasty outline of facts, occurrences, etc.: a sketch of his life.
4.
a short, usually descriptive, essay, history, or story.
5.
a short play or slight dramatic performance, as one forming part of a vaudeville program.

[Mystafet]

Originally Posted by jadams

Bush league.

sketch [skech]
noun
1.
a simply or hastily executed drawing or painting, especially a preliminary one, giving the essential features without the details.
2.
a rough design, plan, or draft, as of a book.
3.
a brief or hasty outline of facts, occurrences, etc.: a sketch of his life.
4.
a short, usually descriptive, essay, history, or story.
5.
a short play or slight dramatic performance, as one forming part of a vaudeville program.

Was gonna say the same thing as Mr. Adams...roughly...most of the sketch cards aren't even sketch cards, they are actual art pieces. This was truly a sketch card. I mean, look at Katie Cook's stuff...very popular, but very very simple. I open Sketch Products because I like the wide range of pieces that can be pulled...erasing it is just horribly wrong and could negatively affect the market.

[monkeymcgee]

Originally Posted by Mystafet

Was gonna say the same thing as Mr. Adams...roughly...most of the sketch cards aren't even sketch cards, they are actual art pieces. This was truly a sketch card. I mean, look at Katie Cook's stuff...very popular, but very very simple. I open Sketch Products because I like the wide range of pieces that can be pulled...erasing it is just horribly wrong and could negatively affect the market.

I get that, but I think we all have a certain expectation of "sketch card" that goes beyond technicalities. I mean technically it does not say you will get a sketch card of any guaranteed quality, but I think we all expect a certain level of skill and effort.

The sketch above indicates to me the artist definitely has skill, but the fact remains it looks like the beginning of a piece that was not completed. Just my opinion.

As I said above, that doesn't excuse erasing it.

[jadams]

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

I get that, but I think we all have a certain expectation of "sketch card" that goes beyond technicalities. I mean technically it does not say you will get a sketch card of any guaranteed quality, but I think we all expect a certain level of skill and effort.

The sketch above indicates to me the artist definitely has skill, but the fact remains it looks like the beginning of a piece that was not completed. Just my opinion.

As I said above, that doesn't excuse erasing it.

For SW releases, artists have been known to do three or four hundred sketches. The absolute minimum is 100. (unless you can talk them into less, which isn't easy I've tried)

And these deadlines are tight. Sometimes the artists bite off more than they can chew. And it was made clear from the beginning that sending back blanks for GF would have consequences.

[dd316]

Originally Posted by Mystafet

I mean, look at Katie Cook's stuff...very popular, but very very simple.

Having owned a Clone Wars sketch of hers for all of 5 minutes, I can tell you some of her work is anything but simple.



I'll say what I said on the other site:
I guess once it's left the roost and found its way into collectors' hands, they can do whatever they want with their sketch cards - including erasing them and trying to re-sell that way.

It's up to artists to have some integrity and not purchase this to draw on.

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

1. I understand the owner's frustration with that sketch in a product he paid $100 for. I think any of us who have opened wax for sketch cards have gotten some that are in this category.

It's a gamble. If you want to make sure you get sketches of a certain style or quality, just buy them on the secondary market. If you're looking for an investment, there are many other less-frustrating options in the world.

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

5. I don't think a satisfactory effort was made by the artist when creating this card

Tell the company, and don't buy any more of their product that doesn't meet your standards.

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

6. I don't understand why Topps would accept and pack out a card like this in a product that MSRP was ~$80 (that's what I read, anyway).

There were other things also in this set adding to the box value. Bottom line is Topps set their artist guidelines and we all followed them our own way. Don't blame the artist for doing what was asked of them, tell the company that commissioned and approved the artwork. If enough people speak up, they will react - it's happened before.



And regarding what Gary said, even my pencil sketches I make sure to sign in ink since crap like this happens.

[NonSportsCardForum]

Originally Posted by dd316

There were other things also in this set adding to the box value. Bottom line is Topps set their artist guidelines and we all followed them our own way. Don't blame the artist for doing what was asked of them, tell the company that commissioned and approved the artwork. If enough people speak up, they will react - it's happened before.

This....

IMO its on the company. Its gone on and been done long enough that collectors should know how Topps operates by now. It should only fool the new collectors.

[sdoug76]

I could not care less about the rest, but agree with points 5 & 6.

Know the artists get paid beans on these, but come on man!!

[aggie4ever]

I know there was a lively discussion about this happening a couple of years ago with the Indiana Jones pencil sketches.

If you are erasing the sketch, then drawing your own sketch and keeping the card in your own collection, I say go for it. However, I would never erase a sketch card myself.

If you are erasing the sketch, then selling the blank, that is unethical and probably illegal as well, since the sketches have to be approved. If you go so far as to mis-represent the blank as some kind of rare unreleased artist proof card (which I think happened on the Indiana Jones cards), I hope the card company comes after you with their lawyers.

[Zerokruel]

I would never do it, because I consider it "damaging" the card. However, that quality should be in the product.

The consumer is paying a pretty good price point as it is - they deserve a better end product. I don't care if it's Topps or the Artist fault - I will put the blame in both areas.

[Incarnadine]

I think companies have it in the contracts they have with artists that they aren't allowed to alter any sketches from the set. This came about after a couple of sets some years back, starting with the 2004 Clone Wars set. Artists (or collectors would commission an artist) would take a poorly drawn light pencil sketch (usually one of the sketches they did for the set, but sometimes a sketch from another artist) and either erase the sketch completely or simply do a heavy full color sketch over top of the old one and resell them. Collectors would buy up the crappy sketches for a few $ and pay $50, $100 or more to commission artists to do full color high quality work. It was actually a thriving business and it lasted for one or 2 more sets after this one before companies cracked down and changed the contracts to stop it from happening in subsequent sets.
Certain artists loved it, they got paid something like $1.50 per sketch from the company but were making a mint altering those sketches. The practice was common enough that these sketches had their own name, they are referred to as After Market Sketches. The more honest sellers of these sketches will refer to them as such, others try to pass them off as pack pulled.

For example, all of Pop Mhan's pack inserted sketches looked something like this:



But the After Markets look like this:

[jam92102]

Originally Posted by Incarnadine

I think companies have it in the contracts they have with artists that they aren't allowed to alter any sketches from the set. This came about after a couple of sets some years back, starting with the 2004 Clone Wars set. Artists (or collectors would commission an artist) would take a poorly drawn light pencil sketch (usually one of the sketches they did for the set, but sometimes a sketch from another artist) and either erase the sketch completely or simply do a heavy full color sketch over top of the old one and resell them. Collectors would buy up the crappy sketches for a few $ and pay $50, $100 or more to commission artists to do full color high quality work. It was actually a thriving business and it lasted for one or 2 more sets after this one before companies cracked down and changed the contracts to stop it from happening in subsequent sets.
Certain artists loved it, they got paid something like $1.50 per sketch from the company but were making a mint altering those sketches. The practice was common enough that these sketches had their own name, they are referred to as After Market Sketches. The more honest sellers of these sketches will refer to them as such, others try to pass them off as pack pulled.

For example, all of Pop Mhan's pack inserted sketches looked something like this:



But the After Markets look like this:

That right there is bs. The artist should be putting out sketches like the second one to begin with. The card manufacturer is to blame as well for even allowing the original.

[vwnut13]

Originally Posted by Incarnadine

For example, all of Pop Mhan's pack inserted sketches looked something like this:



But the After Markets look like this:

Thats a pretty uncomfortable looking position.

[Cujobyte]

The only artist I've been tempted to do this with is "Shum". I hope no one ever gets "Shummed".

[eldavojohn]

Originally Posted by Cujobyte

The only artist I've been tempted to do this with is "Shum".

Originally Posted by Cujobyte

I hope no one ever gets "Shummed".

[SBelcher]

I've never considered erasing a sketch.
I'm torn between the arguments of "It's my property, I can do with it what I please." and the set integrity / license agreements.
Going down your list, Monkey;
1.) I have no sympathy for the box breaker that gets the pencil sketch you showed or any similar sketch (Woodside/Waterhouse). That's the risk you take buying a box.
2.) Couldn't agree with you more - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
3.) I wasn't around for the "After Market" sketch era, but I can understand a manufacturer having an issue with it. Now if an artist who wasn't licensed to be on a set erased someone's work and did their own on the stock, that would be a major issue in my opinion.
4) Yep, nothing else to say.
5) I don't think it's my place to judge "satisfactory effort".
6) I'm assuming they wanted to pack out one sketch per box. Without a few artists putting out 1000+ sketches, they couldn't hit those numbers. Reducing the print run may not be an option, and hiring a few dozen more artists might cause production delays.

[monkeymcgee]

Originally Posted by SBelcher

5) I don't think it's my place to judge "satisfactory effort".

I understand--I couldn't really find the words to say just want I meant there. It's the difference between just not liking the card and being disappointed in the card. Like the card is not what it could have been. It feels incomplete/unfinished.

And to someone else's point, it's not the pencils that I have a problem with. I have some very nice sketches that are just pencils. A good sketch doesn't have to be in ink, but it does need to feel like it's finished.

[Incarnadine]

Originally Posted by SBelcher

3.) I wasn't around for the "After Market" sketch era, but I can understand a manufacturer having an issue with it. Now if an artist who wasn't licensed to be on a set erased someone's work and did their own on the stock, that would be a major issue in my opinion.

That has definitely happened, I know 1 really big name that still does high quality pack inserted sketches to this day that did after markets while not an artist for the set.

[baytowntex]

its actually against the law