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View Full Version : Flawless 5-case auction: the after-action report


NickM
05-23-2016, 09:06 PM
Now that a month and a half has passed since the auction, we can look back and see how everyone did.
First off, houdini as the breaker lost several thousand dollars, because the per-team average price realized was over $100 below the price of the cases divided by 32.
I assigned values to the cards based on ebay highest sale +25% for something sufficiently similar of the same player, where available. This is a price that if the card had come up on ebay, you would likely have been able to successfully get it for. It's an optimistic way to calculate value.

Here is the breakdown of cards, value, and cost by team.

49ers: $500
Davis dual patch (college/pro), Craig auto, Lott diamond, Craig dual patch auto, S. Young auto, D. Clark auto
$125 for the Steve Young auto, $112.50 for the Craig dual patch auto, $95 for the Lott diamond, $65 for the Craig auto (based on an outlier sale - 2nd high sale was basically half of that), but only $25 for the Dwight Clark auto and $12.50 for the Davis dual patch. Didn't break even, but not that serious a loss.

Bears: $426
Briggs patch auto, Sayers emerald, Payton emerald, White dual patch (college/pro), Singletary patch auto
$195 for a Payton emerald, $80 for Singletary patch auto, $70 for Briggs patch auto, $62.50 for a Sayers emerald, and $32.50 for the White patch. All of that, and the Bears barely came out ahead.

Bengals: $175
Eifert jumbo patch
Value calculation tops out at about $50. Sizable loss.

Bills: $255
Watkins jumbo patch, McCoy sapphire
Call it $35 on the patch and $60 on the McCoy. Sizable loss.

Broncos: $415
Sharpe ruby, D. Thomas patch auto /5 (part of word Broncos), Bailey jumbo patch
He sold these as a lot for $225. Using my value calculator, It's $162.50 for the Thomas, $92.50 for the Bailey (but that was a far nicer patch), and $37.50 for the Sharpe. A sizable loss, any way you look at it.

Browns: $130
Duke Johnson diamond, Jim Brown diamond
Duke Johnson diamond calculates out at $100, and since the closest thing on Jim Brown that has sold on ebay is his Flawless diamond from last year, I'll call that another $100-$120. Nice win. :)

Buccaneers: $1000
Winston auto /10 (quad pic), Sapp auto, Winston dual patch (college/pro), Winston auto /15
About $295 and $285 for the 2 Winston autos, $65 for the Sapp auto, and $62.50 for the Winston dual patch. Percentagewise, not a huge loss, but still a substantial sum of money.

Cardinals: $200
Fitzgerald diamond, Fitzgerald jumbo patch
$72 for the patch and $50 for the diamond. Sizable loss.

Chargers: $235
Gordon auto (quad pic), 2 Joiner auto, Gordon jumbo patch, Steve Johnson auto
$60 for Melvin Gordon's auto, $40 for his jumbo patch, $112.50 for the 2 Joiners (based on 1 outlier sale - the next sale would put these to about $90), and $31.50 for the Johnson (also based on 1 outlier sale). All of that, and the Chargers barely broke even.

Chiefs: $235
Charles patch auto, Conley auto 1/1, Kelce patch auto, Charles jumbo patch, Conley auto /5
Say $105 for the Kelce patch auto, $100 for the Charles patch auto, $50 for the Charles jumbo patch, and you're already a winner before you get to the Conleys. Oddly, that particular one pose of his auto cards sells for a lot less than the other (no subset apparent), but even at $30 for the emerald, the platinum is a $100+ card. Big win, even if it's hard to quantify the value.

Colts: $465
Dorsett auto (quad pic), Dorsett dual patch (college/pro)
$37.50 for the Dorsett auto and $25 for the Dorsett dual patch. Huge loss. :(:(

Cowboys: $535
Lilly auto /5, Witten auto, Bryant patch auto, Lilly auto
$130 for the Bryant patch auto, $90 for the Witten auto, $92.50 for the Lilly emerald auto, and $50 for his other auto. Great cards, but still a sizable loss.

Dolphins: $356
2 Marino patch auto, Ajayi patch auto
$500 each for the Marinos, and another $125 for the Ajayi. Huge win. :)

Eagles: $140
3 Agholor dual patch (college/pro), Matthews patch auto, Agholor diamond, 2 Agholor jumbo patch
$70 for the Agholor diamond, $65 for the Matthews patch auto, $60 each for the 3 Agholor dual patches (but that value is based on 1 outlier sale - the 2nd high sale would put them at $25 each), and $37.50 for the pair of Agholor dual patches. A big win regardless of the value of the dual patches. :)

Falcons: $175
Ryan auto, Coleman auto
$110 for the Ryan auto and $37.50 for the Coleman auto. Not that big a loss. I was surprised by how high Ryan is selling in comparison to other QBs.

Giants: $225
Strahan dual patch auto, Manning emerald
$150 for the Strahan dual patch and $112.50 for the Manning emerald. That's actually a win. :)

Jaguars: $225
2 Greene ruby, Bortles sapphire, 2 Yeldon auto (quad pic), Yeldon patch auto
$38.50 each on the Greenes, $37.50 on the Bortles, $95 on the Yeldon patch auto, and $36 each on the Yeldon autos. It's a win with a comfortable amount to spare. :)

Jets: $210
Decker auto, Tebow patch auto, Namath dual patch auto, Devin Smith auto
The Namath is $270 by itself. The Decker is $26.25, the Tebow is $78.25, and the Smith is $31.25. Big win. :)

Lions: $278
Stafford auto, Stafford patch auto, Abdullah dual patch (college/pro)
The Stafford patch auto is $125 (although this is based on an outlier sale), the Stafford auto is $45, and the Abdullah is $25. Sizable loss.

Packers: $578
Ty Montgomery auto (quad pic), Favre patch auto, Montgomery dual patch (college/pro) /5, Hundley auto, Montgomery auto, Hundley auto (quad pic), Montgomery ruby
The Montgomery ruby is $47, both types of Montgomery autos are $32.50, and the Montgomery dual patch is $23. The Hundley auto is $130, although this is based on an outlier sale (other sales would put it at $100 or less). The Favre is the big hit at $375. It's a win.

Panthers: $205
Olsen auto, Newton sapphire
Call it $60 on the Olsen (he sells surprisingly well) and $80 on the Newton. Newton diamonds /20 do a lot better than Newton sapphires /10. It's a loss, but if you lose 1/3 of your money, you didn't hit a disaster.

Patriots: $605
Brady patch auto
Big win. Value calculation comes to about $1200. This was a highly risky bet that paid off. If you don't hit a Brady patch auto or Brady auto, there's nothing in the sparse Patriots portion of the checklist that will bring you anywhere close to the price. :)

Raiders: $606
Carr auto, Hendricks ruby, Cooper jumbo patch
The Carr is $80. So is the Cooper. The Hendricks is $22. Ouch. Very big loss. :(

Rams: $750
Foles auto
It's a $25 value tops. And that's being very generous. At the bid price, this is a participation ribbon. :(:(

Ravens: $200
Perriman sapphire, Perriman diamond
The 2 Perrimans have the same value. Unfortunately, they only total up to $75. Sizable loss.

Redskins: $275
RGIII patch auto, Cousins jumbo patch
Value calculator gives $125 for the RGIII and $65 for the Cousins. However, there is one outlier BIN on the RGIII, otherwise it's $80, and the Cousins was a much nicer patch. Sizable loss.

Saints: $175
Shut out. :(

Seahawks: $525
Lynch sapphire, Sherman auto, Lockett jumbo patch
The Lynch is $60. Sapphires just don't sell well. The Sherman is $345, though this is based on an outlier sale, as all other sales would put it at under $200. The Lockett is $112.50, although this is based on another outlier sale, as the next highest would give a value of $50. Based on this method, the Seahawks almost broke even. It's really a loss of some significance.

Steelers: $405
Coates auto, Coates auto (quad pic), 2 Harris auto
2 Harris autos at $100 apiece, and Coates sells surprisingly well - $95 and $57.50 top the value calculator for his auto and Progressions auto respectively. It's a loss, but not that significant.

Texans: $250
Strong auto, Watt diamond
$75 for the Watt, and value calculator gives $50 for the Strong, helped along by a couple of outlier sales on someone whose cards sometimes go under $10. Sizable loss.

Titans: $1600
Mariota auto /15, DGB auto (quad pic), Cobb auto, DGB auto
Call the Mariota auto $375. The DGB autos come to $75 and $40, with the Progressions auto being the cheaper of the two. Cobb's auto would be $20.
While some other teams had similar percentage losses, this is huge in dollar value. :(:(

Vikings: $225
Diggs auto (quad pic)
Diggs is hot, but value calculation tops out at $50. Big loss.


That's 11 of 30 teams with wins at optimistic measures of value.

The worse news is for people considering hit or team drafts.
I assign the Conley as a $150 or greater value for this. That makes 13 of 100 cards with a $150 value or greater. That's the price of a hit draft spot. So, if you get 2nd pick in a hit draft, you have a greater than 50% chance of losing money.
For a team draft (or team random), $45 could get you 1 team in 1 box. If collation never gave you the same team twice in a box, only 69 of 320 slots would have been winners, with 220 slots getting nothing at all.

mrmojorisin71
05-23-2016, 09:20 PM
So what you're telling me is I should stick to singles....innovative thought

IpcSteveYoung
05-23-2016, 10:33 PM
Did someone say S. Young auto???? :)

dhendrix1303
05-23-2016, 10:57 PM
Cool break down. Thanks for taking the time OP.

ninjacookies
05-23-2016, 10:59 PM
Always like these intricate breakdowns. These are the type of sobering tales that keep me from hitting the reply button on open group break threads.

Ouch on the Titans. :/

Reminds me of the 5 caser of Immaculate I joined several years back. The Pelicans got like 15k+ worth of Anthony Davis cards (perhaps even more), while I basically lost my pants.

Ensuing GB I joined I get the Pelicans and got blanked.

So yeah...I quit.

Eckstein197
05-24-2016, 08:06 AM
Wow I'm surprised the Titans went for 600 more than the Bucs. But nice breakdown, thanks!

GuamWax
05-24-2016, 08:59 AM
Man OP can you do this for every product!? Thanks! I feel much better now. lol

:)!:)!:D:D

RogerGodahell
05-24-2016, 10:25 AM
Wow I'm surprised the Titans went for 600 more than the Bucs. But nice breakdown, thanks!

Titans have been going for more all year in every product. There must be a lot of Mariota collectors that don't post on Blowout.

The Accountant
05-24-2016, 10:43 AM
Very nice break down thank you

ncluett
05-24-2016, 10:46 AM
Interesting analysis... thanks!

I had both the Seahawks and Jaguars in this break. Jags did fine, nothing huge, but I did get a lot of cards. :)

Seahawks was a gamble for a big Lockett auto or Wilson, which I lost. However, I really like the Sherman and will PC it, but I'm not sure it will get 300+.

I think I got 5 encased cards. :)! Plus Houdini's breaks are fun....

stryk
05-24-2016, 10:46 AM
I wish Marino Patch Autos were 500 each. I had a 4 color one listed in Blowout for 215 and only had 2 sub 200 offers. Finally unloaded it on eBay for 240, so rose Marinos might be 500 together if lucky.

This stuff has been awful. The football market has not warmed to Flawless like the basketball market has. I also sold a 3 color Manning Gold Patch Auto #1/10 for only $300 off eBay.

mrmojorisin71
05-24-2016, 10:56 AM
I wish Marino Patch Autos were 500 each. I had a 4 color one listed in Blowout for 215 and only had 2 sub 200 offers. Finally unloaded it on eBay for 240, so rose Marinos might be 500 together if lucky.

This stuff has been awful. The football market has not warmed to Flawless like the basketball market has. I also sold a 3 color Manning Gold Patch Auto #1/10 for only $300 off eBay.

The issue is the football market doesn't drop ridiculous sums of money on any one player. The Rodgers 1/1 black rc auto went for like $3000....curry who has waaaaay more cards have cards go for waaaay more than that.

Also, I appreciate group breakers and their degenerate gambling, it allows us little guys to keep getting singles...so really, we don't need anymore analysis posts to deter people from the group breaking.

NickM
05-24-2016, 11:45 AM
I wish Marino Patch Autos were 500 each. I had a 4 color one listed in Blowout for 215 and only had 2 sub 200 offers. Finally unloaded it on eBay for 240, so rose Marinos might be 500 together if lucky.

This stuff has been awful. The football market has not warmed to Flawless like the basketball market has. I also sold a 3 color Manning Gold Patch Auto #1/10 for only $300 off eBay.

My value calculation was the top ebay sale of a comparable card plus 25%. Marino had three patch autos sell for well over $300, with the top being a $400 BIN. The rest of his sales were a lot lower. Yours was actually the 4th sale price.

It's basically a way to measure the peak price if someone decided "I gotta have it" on a card.

13 have sold. 5 are on ebay now (one of those is a flip attempt of something that previously sold on ebay).
Other than 1/1s, emeralds, and jersey #s, most of the big player collectors have gotten what they wanted by now, so the market has softened. It has hit low-demand players even harder.

packman80
05-24-2016, 11:45 AM
Never saw the interest in buying full cases of this. You see so many of these cards sell for under $50 seems the odds are against you that you will hit enough to get your money back out of these cases.

stryk
05-24-2016, 12:43 PM
I think the biggest problem is that Flawless just hasn't sold to justify buy in price. I think if you did this with NT or even an item like Spectra, it would do a better job of justifying the prices. I think the date of release of this product and the amount that is being ripped and flipped during the offseason hurts it substantially. A smart person would be buying up low priced cards with the anticipation that the market picks up steam during the season. I mean why would you sell Perriman On Card Autos in this product for less that $10 a card?

49erRCCollector
05-24-2016, 01:14 PM
I think the biggest problem is that Flawless just hasn't sold to justify buy in price. I think if you did this with NT or even an item like Spectra, it would do a better job of justifying the prices. I think the date of release of this product and the amount that is being ripped and flipped during the offseason hurts it substantially. A smart person would be buying up low priced cards with the anticipation that the market picks up steam during the season. I mean why would you sell Perriman On Card Autos in this product for less that $10 a card?

I think that Panini learned the wrong lesson from that first Flawless Basketball product. That wrong lesson was that that initial price point, as well as the initial "game used" and autographs that showed up, would translate to football.

As has been said MANY times, basketball is a global sport, football is a national one. That first Flawless Basketball set seemed to be geared and curated with high end collectors in mind.

Football is different, and football fans collect differently. Flawless doesn't resonate with me more than contenders or National Treasures. It could, if the checklist was as thoughtfully curated and if we did not have two other products from Panini that visually are very similar.

Overproduction, endless parallels, sticker-dump autos in products... it's not rocket science. I'll bet any one of us could put together a checklist/autograph/insert for a "dream release" that would have collectors satisfied.

NickM
05-24-2016, 01:45 PM
This was basically the perfect large break for me to track and analyze. First, it had a manageable number of total cards. Second, it was a team auction, so everyone's prices reflected an advance estimate of value. Third, tracking Flawless sales on ebay is much easier than tracking many of the other sets, because there have only been 2 years of Flawless FB and every seller with even half a brain puts flawless in the item title, so I can just put flawless and the player last name as my ebay search most of the time. Fourth, every card was in pictures from the auction thread - no additional work necessary to find all the minor cards. Fifth, no randoms were involved. Sixth, even the cheap card prices are high enough I can just ignore shipping (It's not like a NT base card where $3 of your total $4 cost to buy it went to USPS).

NickM
05-24-2016, 01:52 PM
I think the biggest problem is that Flawless just hasn't sold to justify buy in price. I think if you did this with NT or even an item like Spectra, it would do a better job of justifying the prices. I think the date of release of this product and the amount that is being ripped and flipped during the offseason hurts it substantially. A smart person would be buying up low priced cards with the anticipation that the market picks up steam during the season. I mean why would you sell Perriman On Card Autos in this product for less that $10 a card?

Shhhhhhh. ;)
My collection of $10 and under Flawless cards (which has 1 HOFer auto so far and a few patch autos, plus lots of other stuff) would like to keep growing. :D

stryk
05-24-2016, 01:58 PM
Shhhhhhh. ;)
My collection of $10 and under Flawless cards (which has 1 HOFer auto so far and a few patch autos, plus lots of other stuff) would like to keep growing. :D

Smart man. I also think Flawless sells much better in person at shows. I have bought cheaper cards in the past and filled up showcases with them and have had no trouble selling them at all. I am not doing this with he big dogs, but it's so easy to buy a nice Patch/Auto flawless card on eBay for 10 and sell them at shows for 25-30. Heck I even sold a Montee Ball Flawless Patch at a show two months ago for 20-25.

49erRCCollector
05-24-2016, 02:02 PM
Shhhhhhh. ;)
My collection of $10 and under Flawless cards (which has 1 HOFer auto so far and a few patch autos, plus lots of other stuff) would like to keep growing. :D

I too have picked up a bunch of /25 autos for $10-$15.