2017 MLB Hall of Fame ballots released

[Hollywood42]

Baseball Hall of Fame ballot unveiled | MLB.com (http://m.mlb.com/news/article/209228862/baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-unveiled/)

Jeff Bagwell
Casey Blake
Barry Bonds
Pat Burrell
Orlando Cabrera
Mike Cameron
Roger Clemens
J.D. Drew
Carlos Guillen
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Jeff Kent
Derrek Lee
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Melvin Mora
Mike Mussina
Magglio Ordonez
Jorge Posada
Tim Raines
Manny Ramirez
Edgar Renteria
Arthur Rhodes
Ivan Rodriguez
Freddy Sanchez
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Matt Stairs
Jason Varitek
Billy Wagner
Tim Wakefield
Larry Walker

[Sanocollector24]

casey blake had like 1100 hits in his career, I dont understand how he's even on the list

[lamiwe21]

am going to guess Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, and Ivan Rodriguez

There is going to b some serious backlog if these guys do not get in this year

[IowaCubs1]

casey blake had like 1100 hits in his career, I dont understand how he's even on the list

Love that guy haha

[Hollywood42]

I think you're automatically placed on the ballot if you spend 10 or 15 years in the league. Forget the actual number, but something like that. There's a lot of guys that everyone knows won't come even close, but are placed on the ballot as a formality before not getting the minimum percentage of votes to stay on the ballot

casey blake had like 1100 hits in his career, I dont understand how he's even on the list

[IowaCubs1]

casey blake had like 1100 hits in his career, I dont understand how he's even on the list

Off topic but how in the hell are you still a member here with 3 positives and 3 negatives?

[LCM1223]

Bags
Vlad
Raines
IRod

[awz50]

Off topic but how in the hell are you still a member here with 3 positives and 3 negatives?

I have asked the same question before.

[Sanocollector24]

Off topic but how in the hell are you still a member here with 3 positives and 3 negatives? I oft wonder why Im a member here too, these forums have taken all of the love I have for this hobby, after not coming on this forum for 3 YEARS cause of snarky comments like yours, I finally got back into things then I'm given a neg cause a member said he wanted to buy my card, so I gave him my PP info, and after waiting more than 24 hours for pymt or even a response, even though he was online, I sell the card elsewhere and get hit with a neg because he really wanted that card even though he never got around to paying for it, its a joke in here.

[LCM1223]

Bags
Vlad
Raines
IRod

Manny

[chezball]

I have asked the same question before.

Maybe someone who doesn't have a neg himself should ask the question.
Not directed at you awz.

[IowaCubs1]

Maybe someone who doesn't have a neg himself should ask the question.
Not directed at you awz.

Back to the topic. I also have 130 positives. This guy has 3 positives 3 negatives.

Again - back to the topic - didn't mean to derail the thread just noticed that.

[SethMurphy]

Barry Bonds
Manny Ramirez
Ivan Rodriguez

that's my ballot

i think Pudge is the only nominee this year honestly, just a hunch. Raines maybe, but that's it

[chezball]

Can someone make a thread in the feedback section about the member in question.

[chezball]

Bags
Vlad


Fixed it for you.

[enbambam6986]

Freddy Sanchez? Lol cmon

Vlad and Schilling would get my vote

[Firerunner4]

Can someone make a thread in the feedback section about the member in question.

Almost 3 years between posts too :cool:

[Firerunner4]

Bonds
Bagwell
Schilling
Raines

is mine

[Sanocollector24]

Almost 3 years between posts too :cool:

Yeah, and I'll probably go another 3 years without posting after dealing with all these snarky, pretentious comments.

[HadWayTooMuch]

IRod and PEDs...I don't know if he's getting in.

[Firerunner4]

Yeah, and I'll probably go another 3 years without posting after dealing with all these snarky, pretentious comments.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af286/Daniel_Patrick/giphy-23_zpscajs5a7p.gif (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/Daniel_Patrick/media/giphy-23_zpscajs5a7p.gif.html)

[centereacan06]

IMO, the only certain one is Vlad. Too many PED speculations with the other guys which will hurt (see, Mike Piazza).

[Homerun]

Arthur Rhodes is the only lock I can see on that list. The rest? Meh.

[green4407]

I'd vote for these guys:

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Jorge Posada
Tim Raines
Manny Ramirez
Ivan Rodriguez
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Billy Wagner
Larry Walker

then add:

Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro

[shortking98]

I think Trevor Hoffman stands a pretty good shot, surprised no one has mentioned him.

[FlashGordon]

Who I think should get in and why...

Jeff Bagwell
( Great all around player, no real weakness at the plate. Could hit for power and for avg. + defender for most of his career. Really solid career, and should be recognized for it as a HOF.)

Barry Bonds
(Hands down the best player I have ever seen play baseball, end of story.)

Roger Clemens
(Arguably the best pitcher I have ever seen play. Only person I could make an argument for would be Pedro, but he is already in.)

Vladimir Guerrero
(Cannon arm, and probably has the largest plate coverage of any player. The guy could hit balls that were 2 inches off the ground 320+ feet. If he didn't play for the expos he would have been more of a household name.)

Manny Ramirez
(What Manny lacked in fielding he sure made up for it in hitting. Other than Barry Bonds, in my opinion, no other hitter was more feared from the late 90's through the 2000's.)

Ivan Rodriguez
(300+ HR for a catcher and his defensive wizardry make him a HOF)

Who are border line HOF's that all have an argument for why they should/shouldn't get in.
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield

*It should be noted that I think the best players of each generation should get in, regardless of PEDS. The HOF is not perfect and is full of people who took performance enhancers of some sort during their playing years. Yes, it can be debated on the effect PEDS had on someone's career, or if they did/didn't take them. So to remove all speculation I just chose the best players who I think deserve to be in HOF.

[chezball]

Yeah, and I'll probably go another 3 years without posting after dealing with all these snarky, pretentious comments.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/11HRNNSgJFRQkg/200.gif#3

[fulltritty]

I think Trevor Hoffman stands a pretty good shot, surprised no one has mentioned him.

I wonder with the writers dislike of closers will they make him wait until after Mariano Rivera is inducted in his first year of eligibility.

[fulltritty]

I think Bagwell and Vlad get in. It would be so nice to see Tim Raines finally get in. I-Rod might get close, but probably has to wait until next year.

[SDcardguy24]

I wonder with the writers dislike of closers will they make him wait until after Mariano Rivera is inducted in his first year of eligibility.

that's what I think. Or at least have them go in together.

[enbambam6986]

Arthur Rhodes is the only lock I can see on that list. The rest? Meh.

At least Arthur Rhodes had a career. Freddy Sanchez wouldn't make the hall of decent

[shortking98]

I wonder with the writers dislike of closers will they make him wait until after Mariano Rivera is inducted in his first year of eligibility.

With over 67% last year in his first year on the ballot and another year without a ton of strong 1st year candidates I wouldn't be surprised to see him get in this year. I think him and Bagwell both have a strong chance to make the jump this year.

[mfw13]

Off topic but how in the hell are you still a member here with 3 positives and 3 negatives?

What does that have to do with anything.....a member's iTrader score has nothing to do with their Blowout membership....

[mfw13]

Who I think should get in and why...

Jeff Bagwell
( Great all around player, no real weakness at the plate. Could hit for power and for avg. + defender for most of his career. Really solid career, and should be recognized for it as a HOF.)

Barry Bonds
(Hands down the best player I have ever seen play baseball, end of story.)

Roger Clemens
(Arguably the best pitcher I have ever seen play. Only person I could make an argument for would be Pedro, but he is already in.)

Vladimir Guerrero
(Cannon arm, and probably has the largest plate coverage of any player. The guy could hit balls that were 2 inches off the ground 320+ feet. If he didn't play for the expos he would have been more of a household name.)

Manny Ramirez
(What Manny lacked in fielding he sure made up for it in hitting. Other than Barry Bonds, in my opinion, no other hitter was more feared from the late 90's through the 2000's.)

Ivan Rodriguez
(300+ HR for a catcher and his defensive wizardry make him a HOF)

Who are border line HOF's that all have an argument for why they should/shouldn't get in.
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield

*It should be noted that I think the best players of each generation should get in, regardless of PEDS. The HOF is not perfect and is full of people who took performance enhancers of some sort during their playing years. Yes, it can be debated on the effect PEDS had on someone's career, or if they did/didn't take them. So to remove all speculation I just chose the best players who I think deserve to be in HOF.

I think both Ivan Rodriguez and Vlad would be considered borderline by a lot of voters as well. There is not a lot of consensus as to HOF standards for catchers, and it's hard to make a case for Vlad when Fred McGriff can't even get over 30%....

I'll be most interested to see what happens to Mussina and Schilling, who are pretty much statistical ringers for Smoltz, who got in easily last year.

[L35guy]

I'll agree that Vlad is borderline, but I'd vote him in. However, there is no borderline about I-Rod. .296 avg, 300+ HR, 1300+RBI, 14 All star nods, 13 gold gloves, an MVP, and an NLCS MVP adds up to a shoe-in. I know the crusty, old writers will punish him for PED rumors, but his PED usage was never proven.

[Ephland]

Bonds
Bagwell
Schilling
Raines

is mine

Curious why not Pudge. Top 5 catcher of all time not good enough for the HOF?

[slugger82685]

Curious why not Pudge. Top 5 catcher of all time not good enough for the HOF?

I think it's the PED speculation, huge fan though and I think he deserves first ballot

[Ephland]

I think it's the PED speculation, huge fan though and I think he deserves first ballot

But he's got Bonds on there...

[BlowoutBuzz]

You get one Baseball Hall of Fame vote … will your guy get 75 percent? (It's easier with 10 votes per ballot.) Vote here >>> BlowoutBuzz.com (http://bit.ly/2fyyA0K)

https://blowoutbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/vladimir-guerrero-1995-bowmans-best.jpg

[rman112]

Vlad isn't even close to borderline. He's a stone-cold lock to get in; 2018 ballot at the latest

The only thing keeping Pudge out is steroids.

[babybull]

None of the above.

[rcmb3220]

Arthur Rhodes is the only lock I can see on that list. The rest? Meh.

He has an advantage because he is eligible to be voted in by the writers or the veterans committee.

[TNP777]

I think these guys should all be in.

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Ivan Rodriguez
Sammy Sosa

[marl1220]

What does that have to do with anything.....a member's iTrader score has nothing to do with their Blowout membership....

It has nothing to do with anything. Some people just have a hard time keeping their "personalities" in check.

[Wolves4Life]

If guys like Bonds, Sosa, Clemens never get in it's not a real Hall of Fame. Don't keep guys out that you can't prove cheated the game. Hell guys in the Hall are known to have cheated.

[CubKings]

Sammy Sosa .



And man, DLee was a beast in his prime for Chicago. But he probably doesn't have a real shot.

I'm also very curious to see what happens when Aramis Ramirez time comes. He was pretty legit his whole career.

[Archangel1775]

Baseball Hall of Fame ballot unveiled | MLB.com (http://m.mlb.com/news/article/209228862/baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-unveiled/)

Jeff Bagwell
Casey Blake
Barry Bonds
Pat Burrell
Orlando Cabrera
Mike Cameron
Roger Clemens
J.D. Drew
Carlos Guillen
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Jeff Kent
Derrek Lee
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Melvin Mora
Mike Mussina
Magglio Ordonez
Jorge Posada
Tim Raines
Manny Ramirez
Edgar Renteria
Arthur Rhodes
Ivan Rodriguez
Freddy Sanchez
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Matt Stairs
Jason Varitek
Billy WagnerTim Wakefield
Larry Walker

The rest will fall off the ballot.

[speedyjg13]

Bonds
Clemens
Vladdy Guerrero

[Hollywood42]

My votes off the top of my head, before doing any research or anything-

Jeff Bagwell
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Tim Raines
Ivan Rodriguez

[SethMurphy]

I'm a Yankee fan, but I don't think Posada is a HOFer, neither is Mussina. I also don't get why people think Curt Schilling is a HOFer? You don't get in the HOF on postseason success alone, and his regular season numbers don't hold water.

It's the HOF and this isn't the watered down NFL where you HAVE to elect a certain number every year. Only the greatest to ever play, only the best should be in.

[BigEd]

Who I think should get in and why...

...

Vladimir Guerrero
(Cannon arm, and probably has the largest plate coverage of any player. The guy could hit balls that were 2 inches off the ground 320+ feet. If he didn't play for the expos he would have been more of a household name.)

...



He could hit balls that bounced (http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v6106853/laabal-angels-take-advantage-of-guerreros-blooper).

[IamRalpho]

Curt Schilling should be a Hall of Famer, gonna be interesting to see how many votes he gets now that hes a certified lunatic scumbag

[free2131]

Jeff Bagwell
Casey Blake
Barry Bonds
Pat Burrell
Orlando Cabrera
Mike Cameron
Roger Clemens
J.D. Drew
Carlos Guillen
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Jeff Kent
Derrek Lee
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Melvin Mora
Mike Mussina
Magglio Ordonez
Jorge Posada
Tim Raines
Manny Ramirez
Edgar Renteria
Arthur Rhodes
Ivan Rodriguez
Freddy Sanchez
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Matt Stairs
Jason Varitek
Billy Wagner
Tim Wakefield
Larry Walker

[Skipscards]

Should eventually be in one day:

Jeff Bagwell
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Jeff Kent
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Tim Raines
Ivan Rodriguez
Curt Schilling
Lee Smith
Larry Walker

Will 100% go in this year:
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines

Will probably go in this year:
Trevor Hoffman

There is an outside chance the Vlad makes it this year, but I predict his chances are slim the year.

Schilling and Mussina will likely make significant leaps this year but still fall short.

[TC KING]

Vlad the Destroyer and that it!

[carlo16]

I'm guessing it's a sabermetrics thing but how is Vlad not a lock? And as far as not reaching 3000 hits or 500 hrs that's a product of him not hanging on and playing forever.

[SethMurphy]

Curt Schilling should be a Hall of Famer, gonna be interesting to see how many votes he gets now that hes a certified lunatic scumbag

Why should he be a hall of famer? On what basis?


0 Cy Youngs, 1 WS MVP, 1 NLCS MVP

162 game averages over 20 seasons - 15-10, 3.46 ERA, 221 IP, 211 K

Only won more than 15 games in a season 8 out of 20 years

I just don't get what makes him one of the greatest pitchers of all-time and warrants the Hall of Fame. Yes he went 11-2 in the postseason, but you don't get into the HOF on 19 starts alone.

[tchronis24]

Why should he be a hall of famer? On what basis?


0 Cy Youngs, 1 WS MVP, 1 NLCS MVP

162 game averages over 20 seasons - 15-10, 3.46 ERA, 221 IP, 211 K

Only won more than 15 games in a season 8 out of 20 years

I just don't get what makes him one of the greatest pitchers of all-time and warrants the Hall of Fame. Yes he went 11-2 in the postseason, but you don't get into the HOF on 19 starts alone.

Over 3k strikeouts, over 200 wins, great postseason pitcher. What's not to get?

[mfw13]

I'm a Yankee fan, but I don't think Posada is a HOFer, neither is Mussina. I also don't get why people think Curt Schilling is a HOFer? You don't get in the HOF on postseason success alone, and his regular season numbers don't hold water.

It's the HOF and this isn't the watered down NFL where you HAVE to elect a certain number every year. Only the greatest to ever play, only the best should be in.

Mussina and Schilling are in the same ballpark statistically as Smoltz...either all three should be in or none of them should be in....

[mfw13]

Vlad isn't even close to borderline. He's a stone-cold lock to get in; 2018 ballot at the latest.

Then explain how Fred McGriff has yet to get more than 25% of the vote?

McGriff and Vlad are pretty similar statistically....Vlad wins hits 2590 to 2490 and OPS+ 140 to 134, McGriff wins HR 493 to 449 and RBI 1150 to 1496, and Vlad has the slighly higher WAR, 59.3 to 52.4.

I don't see Vlad getting 50% more of the vote than McGriff....which it what it would take for Vlad to get elected.

And Edgar Martinez hasn't gotten close despite having both a higher WAR (68.3) and career OPS+ (147) than both Vlad and McGriff.

[Moyni]

Who I think should get in and why...

Jeff Bagwell
( Great all around player, no real weakness at the plate. Could hit for power and for avg. + defender for most of his career. Really solid career, and should be recognized for it as a HOF.)

Barry Bonds
(Hands down the best player I have ever seen play baseball, end of story.)

Roger Clemens
(Arguably the best pitcher I have ever seen play. Only person I could make an argument for would be Pedro, but he is already in.)

Vladimir Guerrero
(Cannon arm, and probably has the largest plate coverage of any player. The guy could hit balls that were 2 inches off the ground 320+ feet. If he didn't play for the expos he would have been more of a household name.)

Manny Ramirez
(What Manny lacked in fielding he sure made up for it in hitting. Other than Barry Bonds, in my opinion, no other hitter was more feared from the late 90's through the 2000's.)

Ivan Rodriguez
(300+ HR for a catcher and his defensive wizardry make him a HOF)

Who are border line HOF's that all have an argument for why they should/shouldn't get in.
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield

*It should be noted that I think the best players of each generation should get in, regardless of PEDS. The HOF is not perfect and is full of people who took performance enhancers of some sort during their playing years. Yes, it can be debated on the effect PEDS had on someone's career, or if they did/didn't take them. So to remove all speculation I just chose the best players who I think deserve to be in HOF.

One of the best posts I have ever read. Well said. I agree 100% Although I would add Trevor Hoffman and Raines to my ballot.

[no10pin]

Then explain how Fred McGriff has yet to get more than 25% of the vote?

McGriff and Vlad are pretty similar statistically....Vlad wins hits 2590 to 2490 and OPS+ 140 to 134, McGriff wins HR 493 to 449 and RBI 1150 to 1496, and Vlad has the slighly higher WAR, 59.3 to 52.4.

I don't see Vlad getting 50% more of the vote than McGriff....which it what it would take for Vlad to get elected.

And Edgar Martinez hasn't gotten close despite having both a higher WAR (68.3) and career OPS+ (147) than both Vlad and McGriff.

All accumulation of stats are not created equal. Guerrero put up better number in a shorter period of time than McGriff.
Guerrero was a career .318 hitter, batted over .300 12 times in a row and never hit below .290.
Guerrero had 4 Top-5 MVP finishes and a win. McGriff had one Top-5 and no wins.
Guerrero had more hits and 50 fewer RBI in over 1000 fewer PAs.

[rman112]

Then explain how Fred McGriff has yet to get more than 25% of the vote?

McGriff and Vlad are pretty similar statistically....Vlad wins hits 2590 to 2490 and OPS+ 140 to 134, McGriff wins HR 493 to 449 and RBI 1150 to 1496, and Vlad has the slighly higher WAR, 59.3 to 52.4.

I don't see Vlad getting 50% more of the vote than McGriff....which it what it would take for Vlad to get elected.

And Edgar Martinez hasn't gotten close despite having both a higher WAR (68.3) and career OPS+ (147) than both Vlad and McGriff.

Because Fred McGriff is nowhere near the quality of hitter that Vlad was.

You mentioned a bunch of stats. Vlad hit .318 for his career. McGriff only hit that high in two seasons - the strike season (.318 on the nose) and 2001 (343 AB's, also .318 right on the nose).

Vlad will get in. Book it.

As for Edgar, you conveniently left out the biggest reason that he hasn't gotten in - DH.

[dbackschamp2001]

Vlad also had an incredible arm from the outfield.

[GoBeavs]

As for Edgar, you conveniently left out the biggest reason that he hasn't gotten in - DH.

Once closers started getting put in (as well as Frank Thomas), the DH-only argument is no longer valid.

[PejaD]

Best Bet: Bagwell
Good Chance: Hoffman
Should Get In, But 1st Ballot Angst: Vlad, Pudge
Should Be In, But PED Issues: Bonds, Clemens, Manny
Should Get In Eventually, But Political Issues: Kent, Schilling
Other Guys Who Won't In '17, But Eventually Will: Edgar, Moose

[ThoseBackPages]

You know youre old when you have seen all the players on the list play their entire careers live lol

[no10pin]

You know youre old when you have seen all the players on the list play their entire careers live lol

Yeah, it sucks when you see all of the Jr's coming up, and you remember when you were in high school and their dads were rookies...

[37Jetson]

Is this the year that the Steroid Banishment is lifted? I doubt it so there may not be a player selected this year.

I just don't get Tim Raiders as a HOF'er.

[Skipscards]

Curt Schilling should be a Hall of Famer, gonna be interesting to see how many votes he gets now that hes a certified lunatic scumbag

Why should he be a hall of famer? On what basis?


0 Cy Youngs, 1 WS MVP, 1 NLCS MVP

162 game averages over 20 seasons - 15-10, 3.46 ERA, 221 IP, 211 K

Only won more than 15 games in a season 8 out of 20 years

I just don't get what makes him one of the greatest pitchers of all-time and warrants the Hall of Fame. Yes he went 11-2 in the postseason, but you don't get into the HOF on 19 starts alone.

Over 3k strikeouts, over 200 wins, great postseason pitcher. What's not to get?

3,000 strikeouts has become similar to the 3,000 hit club. Also, Schilling's k/bb ratio is #1 all-time among any pitchers with more than 10 seasons. He's as much a lock for the Hall as you can be.

[Skipscards]

Is this the year that the Steroid Banishment is lifted? I doubt it so there may not be a player selected this year.

I just don't get Tim Raiders as a HOF'er.

I think you mean Tim Raines.

He retired as the 2nd greatest leadoff hitter in history. His issue is he played at the same time as the greatest.

And no, the steroid banishment will likely continue. It was punted to the Veterans Committee years ago.

[houdini]

I oft wonder why Im a member here too...its a joke in here.

Problem solved.

What does that have to do with anything.....a member's iTrader score has nothing to do with their Blowout membership....

Much like your baseball knowledge, you couldn't be more wrong.

[Firerunner4]

Curious why not Pudge. Top 5 catcher of all time not good enough for the HOF?

He would be on my list as well, I overlooked him when I originally posted

[Skipscards]

Problem solved.

In the season of giving thanks, Houdini grants sanocollector24's wish...

[IamRalpho]

3,000 strikeouts has become similar to the 3,000 hit club. Also, Schilling's k/bb ratio is #1 all-time among any pitchers with more than 10 seasons. He's as much a lock for the Hall as you can be.

Yeah you and I disagree a lot but we are in 100% agreement with Schilling.

Arguably the best postseason of all time too

Posada is gonna be interesting, he is a borderline candidate that might get in one day.

Interesting to see Mannys %'s too since he is a HOF'er but also a cheater

[Skipscards]

Yeah you and I disagree a lot but we are in 100% agreement with Schilling.

Arguably the best postseason of all time too

Posada is gonna be interesting, he is a borderline candidate that might get in one day.

Interesting to see Mannys %'s too since he is a HOF'er but also a cheater

We do disagree a lot but for some reason that damn avatar picture of yours always gives me a chuckle making me like you for some reason.

I know I didn't include him in my post above as I've never been a fan, but I 100% agree about Posada. He is a borderline HOFer and, being a catcher on multiple Championship teams, has the looks of a Veterans Committee selection.

Manny has easy HOFer numbers but yeah, he's not entering anytime soon.

[IamRalpho]

I am one of the few who thinks Bonds, Clemens, Manny should be in the HOF. Manny is gonna be tougher since he was suspended for that junk.

Schilling is despised in Boston now, and probably all over the US. So its gonna be fascinating how the writers are gonna view him going forward.

[nflfans4ever]

How cool would that be to have Vlad & Raines both inducted this year in a Expos uni !!!

[hofcollector2]

Vlad a boarder line player, lol, and compared to Fred mcgriff, even funnier. These guys must not have watch Vlad play one inning. Ridiculous! I dint think Vlad would get in first ballot, I figured second ballot but by looking at the current list, he has a chance. He will get in.

[wood minis]

I would second Mussina. Great career, great win total for the era, and pitched in some classic post season duels.

[pmannings#1fan]

My picks would be Bagwell, Pudge, & Sosa.

[jrosales]

There is no way McGriff is on Vlad's level. Although McGriff had more HRs, Vlad's stats had far more substance. He was far more dominant. I don't consider McGriff a HOFer; to me, he was merely very good, a la Harold Baines. But Vlad - especially with his high average, is definitely a HOFer.

[HadWayTooMuch]

A catcher with a lifetime average of .273 with 275 homeruns and 1664 hits would be a disgrace to the Hall of Fame. Much like Phil Rizzuto, a true embarrassment to Cooperstown. Unless he played say 10 seasons. But alas, this catcher played 15 seasons to average a whopping 120 or so hits per year.

He was a minus WAR defender nearly his entire career.

If Jorge Posada played for any other team, this wouldn't even be a conversation.


Meanwhile, although Mike Mussina had pretty good stats, he's not a HOFer to me. Why? He always wanted to be a #2. He never wanted to be "the man." He never stood up and put his team on his shoulders. He signed with the Yankees because they already had an ace and he didn't want to be one.

That's not a HOFer in my eyes.

And Schilling, he's a douchenozzle!

[FlashGordon]

A catcher with a lifetime average of .273 with 275 homeruns and 1664 hits would be a disgrace to the Hall of Fame. Much like Phil Rizzuto, a true embarrassment to Cooperstown. Unless he played say 10 seasons. But alas, this catcher played 15 seasons to average a whopping 120 or so hits per year.

He was a minus WAR defender nearly his entire career.

If Jorge Posada played for any other team, this wouldn't even be a conversation.


Meanwhile, although Mike Mussina had pretty good stats, he's not a HOFer to me. Why? He always wanted to be a #2. He never wanted to be "the man." He never stood up and put his team on his shoulders. He signed with the Yankees because they already had an ace and he didn't want to be one.

That's not a HOFer in my eyes.

And Schilling, he's a douchenozzle!

This couldn't be farther from the truth. Mike was the #1 or "the man" as you put it for the Orioles from 1992-2000. Led the team in wins/games started/strikeouts/innings/era etc. He was the #1 free agent following the 2000 season and decided he was tired of being on a losing team and signed with a team coming off their 3rd consecutive world series title. (If a top free agent signed with the Cubs today instead of a lesser team, would we all say they are not a HOFer because they want to win?) Ohh and it wasn't like he turned down more money to go to the Yankees so he could be the #2, the Yankees made him the 3rd highest paid pitcher in baseball (88.5 million/6 years) behind only Kevin Brown and Roger Clemens.
Mike took the MOST money from the BEST team at the time. Not sure what else he could do. If he stayed with the Orioles he would have continued to be "the man" but being "the man" doesn't win championships. Not sure when wanting to win a championship made you less a HOFer, but if it does then the HOF is full of people who didn't want to be "the man".

[jrosales]

This couldn't be farther from the truth. Mike was the #1 or "the man" as you put it for the Orioles from 1992-2000. Led the team in wins/games started/strikeouts/innings/era etc. He was the #1 free agent following the 2000 season and decided he was tired of being on a losing team and signed with a team coming off their 3rd consecutive world series title. (If a top free agent signed with the Cubs today instead of a lesser team, would we all say they are not a HOFer because they want to win?) Ohh and it wasn't like he turned down more money to go to the Yankees so he could be the #2, the Yankees made him the 3rd highest paid pitcher in baseball (88.5 million/6 years) behind only Kevin Brown and Roger Clemens.
Mike took the MOST money from the BEST team at the time. Not sure what else he could do. If he stayed with the Orioles he would have continued to be "the man" but being "the man" doesn't win championships. Not sure when wanting to win a championship made you less a HOFer, but if it does then the HOF is full of people who didn't want to be "the man".

Everything you typed here is everything I've ever heard regarding Mussina and his status as a star pitcher. From everything I remember, he didn't want to commit to Baltimore if they weren't willing to put a winner on the field.

[awz50]

Everything you typed here is everything I've ever heard regarding Mussina and his status as a star pitcher. From everything I remember, he didn't want to commit to Baltimore if they weren't willing to put a winner on the field.

Funny though, he never won a Ring..

[carlo16]

Funny though, he never won a Ring..

Neither did Ted Williams.......

[jrosales]

Funny though, he never won a Ring..

Yea, he had the worst luck. Signs with NY immediately after they win the 2000 World Series. Plays his entire NY career without winning a ring, and then the moment he retires, they win the 2009 World Series.

[dodgerfanjohn]

Vlad gets in this year along with Raines and Bagwell I think. Maybe Mussina as well.

Those saying Clemens and Bonds are in are smoking crack. Memories aren't that short.

[Ray27Ray52]

A catcher with a lifetime average of .273 with 275 homeruns and 1664 hits would be a disgrace to the Hall of Fame. Much like Phil Rizzuto, a true embarrassment to Cooperstown. Unless he played say 10 seasons. But alas, this catcher played 15 seasons to average a whopping 120 or so hits per year.

He was a minus WAR defender nearly his entire career.

If Jorge Posada played for any other team, this wouldn't even be a conversation.


Meanwhile, although Mike Mussina had pretty good stats, he's not a HOFer to me. Why? He always wanted to be a #2. He never wanted to be "the man." He never stood up and put his team on his shoulders. He signed with the Yankees because they already had an ace and he didn't want to be one.

That's not a HOFer in my eyes.

And Schilling, he's a douchenozzle!

Your comments about Mussina are misguided. Let me paint a picture for you.

May 14th 1998.. Mussina takes a liner to the face off the bat of Sandy Alomar Jr. The impact breaks his nose and causes a absolutely gross gash above his eyebrow.

http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/slides/photos/002/132/575/bal-6-mussina-takes-liner-off-face-may-14-1998-20120330_crop_north.jpg?w=600&h=389&q=75

He misses just over 3 weeks and comes back as good as ever. Wins a Gold Glove that year and finishes with 13 wins and 175 K's in 200 IP. If someone doesn't want to "be the man" he sure had a funny way of showing it.

[jrosales]

Vlad gets in this year along with Raines and Bagwell I think. Maybe Mussina as well.

Those saying Clemens and Bonds are in are smoking crack. Memories aren't that short.

Mussina won't get in this year. Too much of an uphill climb in the voting.

[awz50]

Neither did Ted Williams.......

So?

Your point being? I was just saying it's ironic he did not win a ring. I loved moose even when he was on the Yankees. Not sure why you would try to take a shot at me saying Williams never won a ring.

[carlo16]

So?

Your point being? I was just saying it's ironic he did not win a ring. I loved moose even when he was on the Yankees. Not sure why you would try to take a shot at me saying Williams never won a ring.

Neither did Jim Rice

[no10pin]

NEITHER DID BUDDY BIANCALANA! Oh wait, yeah he did....

[awz50]

Neither did Jim Rice

Or Carl Yazstremski, Or Johnny Pesky or Bobby Doerr

[Skipscards]

Or Carl Yazstremski, Or Johnny Pesky or Bobby Doerr

Joe Momma also doesn't have a ring.

[carlo16]

Or Carl Yazstremski, Or Johnny Pesky or Bobby Doerr

Don't forget Oil Can Boyd. No ring.

[chezball]

Problem solved.



Much like your baseball knowledge, you couldn't be more wrong.

You should have made it a true daily double.
https://media0.giphy.com/media/7mfNjoBuGweDS/200w.gif#4

[signal_fifty]

Or Carl Yazstremski, Or Johnny Pesky or Bobby Doerr

And of these three names, only two are in the hall of fame and only one belongs there.
The worst time of year; hall of fame ballot time. My only choice would be Bagwell. Raines, never. Vlad, I don't think so(personal opinion, might make it eventually). If schilling goes, Mussina goes.
Should be but wont- Kent, Bonds, Clemens, Edgar.

[signal_fifty]

Neither did Jim Rice

And even though he was voted in, he's not a hall of famer. Hall of decent.

[awz50]

And of these three names, only two are in the hall of fame and only one belongs there.
The worst time of year; hall of fame ballot time. My only choice would be Bagwell. Raines, never. Vlad, I don't think so(personal opinion, might make it eventually). If schilling goes, Mussina goes.
Should be but wont- Kent, Bonds, Clemens, Edgar.

The Giant homer is strong in you voting for Kent...

[Skipscards]

And of these three names, only two are in the hall of fame and only one belongs there.
The worst time of year; hall of fame ballot time. My only choice would be Bagwell. Raines, never. Vlad, I don't think so(personal opinion, might make it eventually). If schilling goes, Mussina goes.
Should be but wont- Kent, Bonds, Clemens, Edgar.

And even though he was voted in, he's not a hall of famer. Hall of decent.

http://media.giphy.com/media/jQmVFypWInKCc/giphy.gif

[rman112]

I'm surprised Bagwell never gets mentioned along with the other steroid names. I get that he (has never been publicly known as having) failed a test, but he had the classic anabolic steroid physique.

[trixstar]

What hitters on the HoF ballot had the best WAR in a single-season

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cyza4-AXEAAuh3J.jpg

[scottagibson]

Barry Bonds is a hall of famer. It's not called the hall of truth or the hall of the most honorable. Barry bonds played in the steroid era and dominated it. Are we really just going to ignore that part of the game altogether? It's ridiculous. He gets in eventually but probably in our grandchildren's lifetime. It is a shame. Do I like the guy? Absolutely not. He was a jerk and I could care less about him being inducted for his sake… But if we are going to have a Hall of Fame, the best players from each era have to be represented in it. This country and the people in it are so full of double standards.

[Skipscards]

Barry Bonds is a hall of famer. It's not called the hall of truth or the hall of the most honorable. Barry bonds played in the steroid era and dominated it. Are we really just going to ignore that part of the game altogether? It's ridiculous. He gets in eventually but probably in our grandchildren's lifetime. It is a shame. Do I like the guy? Absolutely not. He was a jerk and I could care less about him being inducted for his sake… But if we are going to have a Hall of Fame, the best players from each era have to be represented in it. This country and the people in it are so full of double standards.

His being a jerk has nothing to do with it. What's ridiculous is he needed to enhance his performance in order to accomplish his "achievements".

[babybull]

His being a jerk has nothing to do with it. What's ridiculous is he needed to enhance his performance in order to accomplish his "achievements".

This is absolutely correct. He cheated. He's not a Hall of Famer.

[scottagibson]

His being a jerk has nothing to do with it. What's ridiculous is he needed to enhance his performance in order to accomplish his "achievements".

I was simply making a point about him being a jerk and me not caring for him to show that I had no interest in backing him other than the fact that he was dominant in the era in which he played. Many people in this era used steroids… That does not mean it should be ignored from the history of the game.

[Skipscards]

I was simply making a point about him being a jerk and me not caring for him to show that I had no interest in backing him other than the fact that he was dominant in the era in which he played. Many people in this era used steroids… That does not mean it should be ignored from the history of the game.

I get that. I'd say it's not being ignored. It's being weighted accordingly for those who actually used them.

[michaeltgraham]

Almost 3 years between posts too :cool:

Thought I would "chime in" with having a poor positive to negative ratio. My negatives came from people doing everything possible to say they didn't get something from me to get a papypal refund. Now I don't mess with it and read posts on this site almost everyday. You never know someone else's situation.

[bobobaseball]

HOF players are also selected based on honor, intergrety, and how the represent the game of baseball. PED users are considered to be not good representatives of baseball and this is whats holding them back from getting voted in.

[jeterfan95]

Vladdy is the main name that sticks out at me. Pudge is a tough one for me because of the ties to PEDs.

[jmscoggin]

I was simply making a point about him being a jerk and me not caring for him to show that I had no interest in backing him other than the fact that he was dominant in the era in which he played. Many people in this era used steroids… That does not mean it should be ignored from the history of the game.

Really? I think that is EXACTLY what it means.

Do you think that cheating on all of your tests through school makes you a valid candidate to be valedictorian?

We are a nation and society of laws. Without repercussions or consequences, what is to stop people from going full rogue? Barry knew the risks he was taking and cheated anyways, I have zero sympathy for him and/or other cheats be it baseball or any other element of society.

[bethanyb1201]

Really? I think that is EXACTLY what it means.

Do you think that cheating on all of your tests through school makes you a valid candidate to be valedictorian?

We are a nation and society of laws. Without repercussions or consequences, what is to stop people from going full rogue? Barry knew the risks he was taking and cheated anyways, I have zero sympathy for him and/or other cheats be it baseball or any other element of society.

So why do you think Bonds shouldnt get in due to steroids yet Aaron,Mantle and countless others knowingly took speed before and during games? Why the double standards? Most people say Bonds Mcgwire ect are cheaters and dont deserve to get in due to performance gains. Speed(greenies) has been shown to artificially aid in a players performance yet noone talks about them. Double standards much?

[Skipscards]

So why do you think Bonds shouldnt get in due to steroids yet Aaron,Mantle and countless others knowingly took speed before and during games? Why the double standards? Most people say Bonds Mcgwire ect are cheaters and dont deserve to get in due to performance gains. Speed(greenies) has been shown to artificially aid in a players performance yet noone talks about them. Double standards much?

First of all, there is a huge difference between anabolic steroids and amphetamines.

Second of all, at the time amphetamines were not a banned substance.

[bethanyb1201]

It has also been proven that steroids were rampant in MLB in the 60s. Difference is they didnt hit the weights near as hard so they didnt bulk up like they do now.

[Skipscards]

It has also been proven that steroids were rampant in MLB in the 60s. Difference is they didnt hit the weights near as hard so they didnt bulk up like they do now.

Proven by whom? Sources?

[bethanyb1201]

Proven by whom? Sources?

Do a google search. Many MLB players afmittes to taking steroids in the 60s. Even if greenies wernt banned by mlb until 06 it has been a schedule 2 drug since the early 70s. So if players took them without a script it was still illegal. We are talking about performance enhancing drugs. These drugs legal or not have been around since baseball was invented. To think that all of baseball heros are all clean is stupid IMO

[bethanyb1201]

Proven by whom? Sources?

Congress even started an investigation into HGH and anphetamines in 1971 or 73. They chose to discontinue investigation so it wouldnt tarnish the game.

[Skipscards]

Do a google search. Many MLB players afmittes to taking steroids in the 60s. Even if greenies wernt banned by mlb until 06 it has been a schedule 2 drug since the early 70s. So if players took them without a script it was still illegal. We are talking about performance enhancing drugs. These drugs legal or not have been around since baseball was invented. To think that all of baseball heros are all clean is stupid IMO

You are the one spewing anecdotal rhetoric without sourcing it. I am not going to do your homework for you.

Again, amphetamines are not the same as HGH or Steroids. But even if they were, if they weren't against the rules, then it is irrelevant.

[bethanyb1201]

You are the one spewing anecdotal rhetoric without sourcing it. I am not going to do your homework for you.

Again, methamphetamines are not the same as HGH or Steroids. But even if they were, if they weren't against the rules, then it is irrelevant.

So if they were illegal by goverment standards thats ok as long as they were legal in baseball? Wow ok..... I did source it... do your homework and look up how congress looked into steroids in the early 70s in baseball. In your eyes Hank Aaron or Ruth could have killed someone and as long as MLB didnt have a rule against it they wouldnt be guilty. Just live in your dream world and I will live in mine. They were all cheaters..... which is fine by me I like to watch the game and I could careless what they were taking.

[cardboardhoard]

Just to clarify.....Amphetamine became a schedule II controlled substance in the early 70's under the Controlled Substances Act. I'm splitting hairs, but the athletes taking greenies back then were probably taking amphetamine (speed) not methamphetamine (meth, crystal meth). I wouldn't go calling Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle a meth-head.

Regardless, I don't think amphetamines and anabolic steroids are comparable in terms of the athletic performance benefit....these 3 guys took amphetamines for most of their lives, but probably couldn't have run a 100 yard dash or do more than a 12 ounce curl:


http://images.popmatters.com/features_art/w/waylonjenningsnashvillerebel.jpg https://aclbomb.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/middle-aged-johnny-cash.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qKSXCTYrL9M/hqdefault.jpg

[free2131]

HOF players are also selected based on honor, intergrety, and how the represent the game of baseball.

To borrow a GIF...

http://media.giphy.com/media/jQmVFypWInKCc/giphy.gif

[mfw13]

This is absolutely correct. He cheated. He's not a Hall of Famer.

If you take everyone who "cheated" out of the Hall of Fame, there probably aren't too many people left.

Pretty much every major star in the 50's/60's took greenies (i.e. amphetamines).

Lots of pitchers cheated either by throwing spitballs (Gaylord Perry), or scuffing up/cutting the baseball.

As long as people have been playing baseball, players have been cheating in some way, shape, or form to try to gain an advantage.

[mfw13]

The Giant homer is strong in you voting for Kent...

Player A: 55.2 WAR over 17 seasons, 123 OPS+, .855 OPS, 2491 hits, 1320 runs, 377 HR, 1518 RBI, 94 SB & an MVP

Player B: 65.1 WAR over 20 seasons, 112 OPS+, .796 OPS, 3060 hits, 1844 runs, 291 HR, 1175 RBI, 414 SB

Player B got 82.7% of the HOF vote last year, player A got 16.6%....one is Craig Biggio, the other is Jeff Kent....

[Skipscards]

So if they were illegal by goverment standards thats ok as long as they were legal in baseball? Wow ok..... I did source it... do your homework and look up how congress looked into steroids in the early 70s in baseball. In your eyes Hank Aaron or Ruth could have killed someone and as long as MLB didnt have a rule against it they wouldnt be guilty. Just live in your dream world and I will live in mine. They were all cheaters..... which is fine by me I like to watch the game and I could careless what they were taking.

Yes. I'm not going to fault someone for enhancing their performance with something not against the rules. There are plenty of substances that weren't banned until it was determined they impacted performance. Similarly, separate from that, there are plenty of substances that were made illegal "by government standards" as time passes. Two different things that are easily differentiated.

As for murder, last I checked killing someone has no bearing on one's ability to hit homeruns. However, I suspect if Ruth or Aaron had committed murder they would have been in violation of the rules for inappropriate or criminal behavior.

I do not live in a dream world. I live in reality. They were not all cheaters. Saying that is a copout and diminishes the accomplishments of the actual honest, clean players.

So you do care...good to know. :coffee:

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Mffe9a6a077f499da3e54994a5050d15do0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300

[Skipscards]

Player A: 55.2 WAR over 17 seasons, 123 OPS+, .855 OPS, 2491 hits, 1320 runs, 377 HR, 1518 RBI, 94 SB & an MVP

Player B: 65.1 WAR over 20 seasons, 112 OPS+, .796 OPS, 3060 hits, 1844 runs, 291 HR, 1175 RBI, 414 SB

Player B got 82.7% of the HOF vote last year, player A got 16.6%....one is Craig Biggio, the other is Jeff Kent....

Kent should be a HOFer (and I believe he will eventually get in), but comparing him to Biggio isn't fair because Biggio got to 3,000 hits. That will almost always end the debate.

[free2131]

Kent should be a HOFer (and I believe he will eventually get in), but comparing him to Biggio isn't fair because Biggio got to 3,000 hits. That will almost always end the debate.

So because Biggio spent his last two years compiling hits when he shouldn't have been playing (combined -1.7 bWAR for both years), it isn't fair? Kent could have spent two more seasons not contributing and getting about 2700 hits and over 400 HR. Would that make him any more a HOFer than Biggio?

[enyouartist]

Player A: 55.2 WAR over 17 seasons, 123 OPS+, .855 OPS, 2491 hits, 1320 runs, 377 HR, 1518 RBI, 94 SB & an MVP

Player B: 65.1 WAR over 20 seasons, 112 OPS+, .796 OPS, 3060 hits, 1844 runs, 291 HR, 1175 RBI, 414 SB

Player B got 82.7% of the HOF vote last year, player A got 16.6%....one is Craig Biggio, the other is Jeff Kent....

Kent may get in eventually, but 3000 hits is 3000 hits. That's more of a magic number than 500 hrs.

[Skipscards]

So because Biggio spent his last two years compiling hits when he shouldn't have been playing (combined -1.7 bWAR for both years), it isn't fair? Kent could have spent two more seasons not contributing and getting about 2700 hits and over 400 HR. Would that make him any more a HOFer than Biggio?
Sure, it's fair. And no, there is nothing magical about 2,700 hits or 400 Homeruns. But again, Kent already compiled HOF numbers in my opinion so his qualifications are moot to me. But there should be zero surprise that a player with 3,000 hits is an automatic Hall of Famer.

Kent may get in eventually, but 3000 hits is 3000 hits. That's more of a magic number than 500 hrs.

This.

[jmscoggin]

Kent may get in eventually, but 3000 hits is 3000 hits. That's more of a magic number than 500 hrs.

Exactly this. I'm with Jeff, if I had a vote, Kent would already be in. Facts are facts though, milestones matter and 3,000 hits is a big one. Kent will get in eventually but comparing him to Biggio is far from apples to apples.

[tkraft24]

Yes. I'm not going to fault someone for enhancing their performance with something not against the rules. There are plenty of substances that weren't banned until it was determined they impacted performance. Similarly, separate from that, there are plenty of substances that were made illegal "by government standards" as time passes. Two different things that are easily differentiated.


I think this brings up a certain human element to the debate that seldom gets talked about. The rise of PED's happened very quickly with the Big Pharma industry gaining traction. It's clear to many, that before substances were banned, the culture of MLB was very open to using PED's. It made everyone more money and brought more fans to the game.

These are drugs we're talking about. Drugs are addictive and the Big Pharma industry kept pushing out better "stuff". This intensifies addiction and dependencies.

So yeah, it's fine that MLB banned substances but up until that point they groomed a class of junkies. Addiction doesn't have a simple off switch.

[Skipscards]

I think this brings up a certain human element to the debate that seldom gets talked about. The rise of PED's happened very quickly with the Big Pharma industry gaining traction. It's clear to many, that before substances were banned, the culture of MLB was very open to using PED's. It made everyone more money and brought more fans to the game.

These are drugs we're talking about. Drugs are addictive and the Big Pharma industry kept pushing out better "stuff". This intensifies addiction and dependencies.

So yeah, it's fine that MLB banned substances but up until that point they groomed a class of junkies. Addiction doesn't have a simple off switch.

So true. Interestingly, it was a bigger debate with the NFL before it ever got to the MLB. Particularly with Lyle Alzado. His battle with cancer where he blamed steroid, and subsequent death, really put a face to the risks of additction and longterm health.

[mfw13]

So yeah, it's fine that MLB banned substances but up until that point they groomed a class of junkies.

The other element of the discussion that most people choose to ignore is that the fact the MLB willfully turned a blind eye to PED use for quite a few years because of the fact that Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, et al were making the game more popular (and the owners more money).

So to then keep players out of the HOF for using PED's, when MLB had, for all intents and purposes, given players de facto permission to do so, is the height of hypocrisy.

[jmscoggin]

The other element of the discussion that most people choose to ignore is that the fact the MLB willfully turned a blind eye to PED use for quite a few years because of the fact that Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, et al were making the game more popular (and the owners more money).

So to then keep players out of the HOF for using PED's, when MLB had, for all intents and purposes, given players de facto permission to do so, is the height of hypocrisy.

I agree strongly with the first paragraph and strongly against the second. Just because MLB turned a blind eye does not absolve the players of the choices that they made. I'm pretty sick of the 'it's always someone elses fault' defense.

[tkraft24]

I agree strongly with the first paragraph and strongly against the second. Just because MLB turned a blind eye does not absolve the players of the choices that they made. I'm pretty sick of the 'it's always someone elses fault' defense.

I think the point is MLB sent a lot of player down the road of addiction.

[ThePumaLives]

Biggio vs. Kent is apples to oranges as one was a top of the order hitter and the other was in the middle of the order. That being said, Biggio had a better peak and was a better defender. Kent was unfortunately overshadowed by Bonds, but he stands a chance to get in via the VC. Kent is actually a guy that grows on me each year as I look back at all of the candidates, but I don't know if I'd vote for him if I actually had a say.

[jmscoggin]

I think the point is MLB sent a lot of player down the road of addiction.

How so? Did Selig personally inject any players? Did MLB hand out greenies in ST? I think the entire premise of your argument is absurd. Adults need to be accountable for their own actions and quit pointing fingers at someone else for their poor choices.

[tkraft24]

How so? Did Selig personally inject any players? Did MLB hand out greenies in ST? I think the entire premise of your argument is absurd. Adults need to be accountable for their own actions and quit pointing fingers at someone else for their poor choices.

The culture of using PED's (legally) was once embraced by MLB, plain and simple. Yes, some player's were skeptical of using these drugs even when they were legal and they proved to be making the right decision.

However, others saw what other players were doing, saw that it was legal, saw that MLB had nothing bad to say about the practice and jumped on board. They chose to do things that were perfectly acceptable at the time. The drug companies got many hooked before the rules changed.

So yeah, people made mistakes, but the mistakes abusers made were largely before regulations were in place. By the time legality came into play, personal choice was already muddled by addiction.

[jmscoggin]

The culture of using PED's (legally) was once embraced by MLB, plain and simple. Yes, some player's were skeptical of using these drugs even when they were legal and they proved to be making the right decision.

However, others saw what other players were doing, saw that it was legal, saw that MLB had nothing bad to say about the practice and jumped on board. They chose to do things that were perfectly acceptable at the time. The drug companies got many hooked before the rules changed.

So yeah, people made mistakes, but the mistakes abusers made were largely before regulations were in place. By the time legality came into play, personal choice was already muddled by addiction.

That was a lot of words to dance around but not answer my simple and direct question. How does any of the above take the responsibility away from an individual that chose personally to take drugs (performance enhancing or otherwise) and put it on someone else as forcing him to do so?

I've been around drugs my entire life and have never used them, it is called personal responsibility and accountability.

[tkraft24]

That was a lot of words to dance around but not answer my simple and direct question. How does any of the above take the responsibility away from an individual that chose personally to take drugs (performance enhancing or otherwise) and put it on someone else as forcing him to do so?

I've been around drugs my entire life and have never used them, it is called personal responsibility and accountability.

Never said MLB forced anyone to take anything so that might explain the perceived dancing around of the question. People took PED's lawfully with the blind eye of MLB officials for years. Are you saying these players were at fault when everything was kosher? Or were they only at fault if they continued use after the bans/restrictions/laws were put in place?

[jmscoggin]

Never said MLB forced anyone to take anything so that might explain the perceived dancing around of the question. People took PED's lawfully with the blind eye of MLB officials for years. Are you saying these players were at fault when everything was kosher? Or were they only at fault if they continued use after the bans/restrictions/laws were put in place?

For the sake of staying on topic, I'll only address those that used things after they became illegal to do so. Did MLB turn "a blind eye"? Without a doubt. Was a player at a competitive and therefore financial disadvantage by playing clean in the steroid era? No question. Do either of the above make me sympathetic to their HOF chances if they chose to use something that was against the rules? Not in the slightest.

I do want to be clear though. I'm no saint and I'm not without fault. Were I a MLB player in the steroid era and playing clean got me a $10 million contract and using got me a $100 million contract, I can't say that I wouldn't have turned to the dark side. However, I can say that I wouldn't be complaining about my HOF eligibility if I had gotten caught.

[tkraft24]

For the sake of staying on topic, I'll only address those that used things after they became illegal to do so. Did MLB turn "a blind eye"? Without a doubt. Was a player at a competitive and therefore financial disadvantage by playing clean in the steroid era? No question. Do either of the above make me sympathetic to their HOF chances if they chose to use something that was against the rules? Not in the slightest.


I agree with all of your points in the way that you've presented them....yes, this is the kindest objection ever :)

What I think we agree on:
*PED usage was perfectly acceptable for some time in MLB
*Not only was it perfectly acceptable, but it was incentivized by MLB (at least indirectly)

These were all new drugs and more new drugs and then even better, newer LEGAL drugs. No one grew up learning about the negative consequences of PED's.....they weren't even things (in the modern sense). Like all prescription meds, supplements, etc....no information about the long-term usage is disclosed because the consumers are the test rats. No one is told they are addictive.

Guess what, PED's are addictive. MLB groomed a culture of usage and then pulled the plug once they starting catching flack. Addicted players were then told they had to stop being addicts...which is the most insane request ever to an addicted person. Here's one of the many interpretations of what addiction is:

"Duke University professors of pharmacology Wilkie Wilson and Cynthia Kuhn eloquently summarize addiction this way it this way:

So addiction is far more than seeking pleasure by choice. Nor is it just the willingness to avoid withdrawal symptoms. It is a hijacking of the brain circuitry that controls behavior so that the addict’s behavior is fully directed to drug seeking and use. With repeated drug use, the reward system of the brain becomes subservient to the need for the drug."

Applying the circumstances that led to addiction and the definition of addiction itself to your latter point of players "making a choice to use something that was against the rules" doesn't sit well with me. MLB got off easy and players are thrown under the bus.

[jmscoggin]

I agree with all of your points in the way that you've presented them....yes, this is the kindest objection ever :)

What I think we agree on:
*PED usage was perfectly acceptable for some time in MLB
*Not only was it perfectly acceptable, but it was incentivized by MLB (at least indirectly)

These were all new drugs and more new drugs and then even better, newer LEGAL drugs. No one grew up learning about the negative consequences of PED's.....they weren't even things (in the modern sense). Like all prescription meds, supplements, etc....no information about the long-term usage is disclosed because the consumers are the test rats. No one is told they are addictive.

Guess what, PED's are addictive. MLB groomed a culture of usage and then pulled the plug once they starting catching flack. Addicted players were then told they had to stop being addicts...which is the most insane request ever to an addicted person. Here's one of the many interpretations of what addiction is:

"Duke University professors of pharmacology Wilkie Wilson and Cynthia Kuhn eloquently summarize addiction this way it this way:

So addiction is far more than seeking pleasure by choice. Nor is it just the willingness to avoid withdrawal symptoms. It is a hijacking of the brain circuitry that controls behavior so that the addict’s behavior is fully directed to drug seeking and use. With repeated drug use, the reward system of the brain becomes subservient to the need for the drug."

Applying the circumstances that led to addiction and the definition of addiction itself to your latter point of players making a choice "to use something that was against the rules" doesn't sit well with me. MLB got off easy and players are thrown under the bus.

It does seem that we agree on the topic more than we disagree. I think the main point we're at odds with is the culpability of the league vs the players. It is the same argument as concussions in the NFL or smokers vs cigarette companies and I don't buy it in those cases either.

I'm 42 years old and I've known since I was a small child that hitting your head is bad for you, cigarettes are bad for you and doing drugs are bad for you. Heck, Lyle Alzado was a huge deal almost 30 years ago with saying how it was steroids that were killing him. To let the players off the hook as not knowing better just doesn't ring true to me.

Again, the players made their choices for their own reasons but they need to own those reasons and the consequences that go with them. I put none of this on MLB other than taking far too long to crack down. Heck, it can be argued that they still haven't but that mostly goes back to the players (union) fighting against them doing so.

I'm not sure how MLB "groomed" anything. Players have always and will always cheat. MLB slacked off on enforcement but that is a long way from outright encouraging, participating or "grooming".

[tkraft24]

It does seem that we agree on the topic more than we disagree. I think the main point we're at odds with is the culpability of the league vs the players. It is the same argument as concussions in the NFL or smokers vs cigarette companies and I don't buy it in those cases either.

I'm 42 years old and I've known since I was a small child that hitting your head is bad for you, cigarettes are bad for you and doing drugs are bad for you. Heck, Lyle Alzado was a huge deal almost 30 years ago with saying how it was steroids that were killing him. To let the players off the hook as not knowing better just doesn't ring true to me.

Again, they made their choices for their own reasons but they need to own those reasons and the consequences that go with them. I put none of this on MLB other than taking far too long to crack down. Heck, it can be argued that they still haven't but that mostly goes back to the players (union) fighting against them doing so.

I'm not sure how MLB "groomed" anything. Players have always and will always cheat. MLB slacked off on enforcement but that is a long way from outright encouraging, participating or "grooming".

Cigarettes were actually approved by physicians back in the day! haha.

MLB essentially acted as a negligent parent which, in part, resulted in negative consequences for many players. Yes, the players chose to take legal supplements (PEDs). I don't think they chose a path of addiction. Some of that falls on Papa Selig....who oddly enough is in the HOF now, lol.

[jmscoggin]

Cigarettes were actually approved by physicians back in the day! haha.

MLB essentially acted as a negligent parent which, in part, resulted in negative consequences for many players. Yes, the players chose to take legal supplements (PEDs). I don't think they chose a path of addiction. Some of that falls on Papa Selig....who oddly enough is in the HOF now, lol.

I'll say this, if I had any influence in the matter, I wouldn't even let Selig buy a ticket to visit the HOF much less be enshrined in it.

[tkraft24]

I'll say this, if I had any influence in the matter, I wouldn't even let Selig buy a ticket to visit the HOF much less be enshrined in it.

It's a complete disgrace.

[mfw13]

If they're going to let Selig in, then Bonds & Clemens better not be far behind.....

[Skipscards]

I'll say this, if I had any influence in the matter, I wouldn't even let Selig buy a ticket to visit the HOF much less be enshrined in it.

It's a complete disgrace.

If they're going to let Selig in, then Bonds & Clemens better not be far behind.....

Obviously I've been on the keep them out stance and after today's sound rejection of Big Mac, I think Bonds and Clemens have a long way to go.

That being said, LaRussa's induction is pretty funny considering one could argue a lot of his wins were a direct result of the Juice. Just sayin'.

[quantguy]

Prediction of who gets in this year:
Bagwell
Raines
Rodriguez

Who I'd vote for:
Bonds
Clemens
Bagwell
Raines
Ivan Rodriguez
Manny Ramirez
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Larry Walker
Sammy Sosa