Are new comic book speculation sites essentially a Pyramid Scheme?

[fastballspecial]

This was brought up on another site, but its something worth considering.
Think about this. Someone runs a speculator site. They buy up a bunch of low print variants cheap. They run an article on them talking about how rare they are The article runs then the supply disappears and they start listing the books. They get a couple of sales and there it goes.

Is it that far fetched?

[Donkaylove]

No not at all-

yes-its a pretty popular method of pump and dump these days with social media and all the sheeple. Just put it in front of them.......

[Vashalu]

I don't think its entirely far-fetched. But to be honest, they are just profiting on work anyone with an internet connection can do on their own. So I don't see it as a bad thing. I take it as a win when I beat those articles and score the book on the cheap before they report it.

Print run numbers are readily available online for all to see. Having the foresight to do some research on a variant or any other book before you decide to invest is just another way to be ahead of the game if your intention is to make money.

How (or whom) you choose to share that info with is entirely up to you. As the GI Joe cartoon taught me as a kid: "knowing is half the battle".

[bird]

people seem to be upset mostly because sites like CBSI (that is mainly who we are talking about, correct?) are not as transparent as those critics feel they should be. They presumably sell books that they feature on the site. in fact it appears that one of the mods there also partnered in publishing variant(s?) that the site then pumped up. So people see a conflict there.

I see the site as a commercial or marketing vehicle for their comic book speculating. Essentially an infomercial on the net that looks like a newsroom but is really just selling something. There is no content regulation on the web for these things, so as long as knowledgeable people speak up and point out snakeoil salesman things should be okay. Just do your research instead of heading straight to ebay. (In other words, maybe ask Indy.)

[IndySportsCards]

I agree, and it's a lot of why I didn't want to be part of a certain site when asked a while back, it's just not my cup of tea.. I don't mind sharing books when things get picked up or grading books for you guys, but it's a hobby for me, not a business, and nobody is going to get rich doing this, only going to burn people and alienate them from the hobby in the long run.

You can learn a lot from G.I. Joe PSA's!!!

ogEtfIdgjpY

[Spider-Fan]

It's slimey, in a very obvious way. But it's far from a pyramid scheme.

[IndySportsCards]

It's slimey, in a very obvious way. But it's far from a pyramid scheme.

True, that's not really the correct phrase to describe it. I'm not sure what it should be called outside of "Pump & Dump"

[speez22]

True, that's not really the correct phrase to describe it. I'm not sure what it should be called outside of "Pump & Dump"

Pump and dump is the perfect description. Happens A LOT.

[jaymix79]

Buy what you like; do your own research. Enjoy it as a hobby. If you make money enjoying the hobby, then count that as a plus. This is no disrespect to the OP, it's just my view.

[Morgoth]

Buying Keys and holding for 10 years will make you money, everything else is a gamble

[fastballspecial]

people seem to be upset mostly because sites like CBSI (that is mainly who we are talking about, correct?) are not as transparent as those critics feel they should be. They presumably sell books that they feature on the site. in fact it appears that one of the mods there also partnered in publishing variant(s?) that the site then pumped up. So people see a conflict there.

I see the site as a commercial or marketing vehicle for their comic book speculating. Essentially an infomercial on the net that looks like a newsroom but is really just selling something. There is no content regulation on the web for these things, so as long as knowledgeable people speak up and point out snakeoil salesman things should be okay. Just do your research instead of heading straight to ebay. (In other words, maybe ask Indy.)

For me yeah its just about the conflict of interest. You really cant sell books at the same time you are hyping them. You can have a collaboration with another site selling books and trying to claim any sense of impartiality.

All the other personal stuff I don't care about. I don't sell many slabs so I am not in competition with most of them, but at the same time I wouldn't do business with any of them because of the 1st paragraph.

[kaboom]

I can sum up the argument really well. Company A commissions a variant. They partner with two moderators from a website and pay for the books, from a hot artist. The website then places that book up for promotion for sale, "Hey guys we love this artist and here is going to be the hottest new thing." The readers buy it. A third individual offers an exclusive grading club for 9.8 copies. It is placed on the top 10 list. The books come in and many are damaged. People now wonder hot the website guys got great copies or guaranteed 9.8's.

That's the gist of it.

The arguments run from "is it a pyramid scheme" to "was favoritism shown" to "it is a conflict of interest" to "were the books cherry picked". Hard to say. I have no dog in this fight. I am not a member of the group over there nor did I purchase any copies, but I can see both sides of the argument.

[Mysterio]

I can sum up the argument really well. Company A commissions a variant. They partner with two moderators from a website and pay for the books, from a hot artist. The website then places that book up for promotion for sale, "Hey guys we love this artist and here is going to be the hottest new thing." The readers buy it. A third individual offers an exclusive grading club for 9.8 copies. It is placed on the top 10 list. The books come in and many are damaged. People now wonder hot the website guys got great copies or guaranteed 9.8's.

That's the gist of it.

The arguments run from "is it a pyramid scheme" to "was favoritism shown" to "it is a conflict of interest" to "were the books cherry picked". Hard to say. I have no dog in this fight. I am not a member of the group over there nor did I purchase any copies, but I can see both sides of the argument.

You could say that about ANY spec site that sells exclusive covers though. It's not just limited to the CBSI guys. These sites have a platform with thousands of readers. They give information away for free. What's the problem with monetizing a little bit by offering up a product people could potentially want? It's not like they're gating their information and selling subscription fees. You're getting a physical product that you could potentially sell for a profit. Heck, Hoknes was offering paid subscriptions AND pumping variants!

I'm going to table the grading club argument. They only offered up 5 copies. It's not like they had 50 or 100. It's also my understanding that if the books don't grade at 9.8, the buyer can back out of the deal (maybe I'm wrong on that but I thought I saw that somewhere).

At the end of the day, all I can say is "so what?" None of these sites are holding my family hostage and forcing me to buy any of their variants. I buy what I like for a price that I think is reasonable. I've bought books that CBSI, ComicBookScalping and CHU have offered up and passed on others. Full disclosure, I did get one "secret variant" set of the Venom books for my PC. I was fortunate enough to get them at the initial offering price of $50, which I thought was fair and reasonable. I can see people's displeasure with paying more when they tiered them, though.

JayMix said it well "Buy what you like; do your own research. Enjoy it as a hobby."

[kaboom]

You could say that about ANY spec site that sells exclusive covers though. It's not just limited to the CBSI guys. These sites have a platform with thousands of readers. They give information away for free. What's the problem with monetizing a little bit by offering up a product people could potentially want? It's not like they're gating their information and selling subscription fees. You're getting a physical product that you could potentially sell for a profit. Heck, Hoknes was offering paid subscriptions AND pumping variants!

I'm going to table the grading club argument. They only offered up 5 copies. It's not like they had 50 or 100. It's also my understanding that if the books don't grade at 9.8, the buyer can back out of the deal (maybe I'm wrong on that but I thought I saw that somewhere).

At the end of the day, all I can say is "so what?" None of these sites are holding my family hostage and forcing me to buy any of their variants. I buy what I like for a price that I think is reasonable. I've bought books that CBSI, ComicBookScalping and CHU have offered up and passed on others. Full disclosure, I did get one "secret variant" set of the Venom books for my PC. I was fortunate enough to get them at the initial offering price of $50, which I thought was fair and reasonable. I can see people's displeasure with paying more when they tiered them, though.

JayMix said it well "Buy what you like; do your own research. Enjoy it as a hobby."

Mysterio, I am not arguing or saying anyone did anything wrong, I was just summing up the arguments I saw.

The truth is, Frankie's can partner with whomever he wants to fund raise for the variants. The variants were expensive and they split the cost three ways. Nothing wrong with that. They had no idea the books would blow up, it was a risk. Look at what happened with ComicXposures Dell"otto Variants, nothing really. Again, I was just giving a summary to the arguments, not taking sides or casting aspersions.

[Mysterio]

Mysterio, I am not arguing or saying anyone did anything wrong, I was just summing up the arguments I saw.

The truth is, Frankie's can partner with whomever he wants to fund raise for the variants. The variants were expensive and they split the cost three ways. Nothing wrong with that. They had no idea the books would blow up, it was a risk. Look at what happened with ComicXposures Dell"otto Variants, nothing really. Again, I was just giving a summary to the arguments, not taking sides or casting aspersions.

Yes you did! You're arguing with me!!! :D

I like your summary of the concerns. I was just trying to add my 2 cents to the conversation. I was debating whether I was going to say anything at all because I don't like getting involved in all the "drama." My thoughts probably come across as the incoherent ramblings of a partially deranged madman.

End of the day, I have no beef with anyone.

[kaboom]

Yes you did! You're arguing with me!!! :D

I like your summary of the concerns. I was just trying to add my 2 cents to the conversation. I was debating whether I was going to say anything at all because I don't like getting involved in all the "drama." My thoughts probably come across as the incoherent ramblings of a partially deranged madman.

End of the day, I have no beef with anyone.

No, you are arguing with me about not arguing with you. Lol.

But you are right. no one held anyone hostage to buy anything. Also, Frankies had no control over the polybagging (they paid to have them bagged and boarded and this is what they got) which caused the damage to the books which everyone is unhappy about. If all the books came out Gem Mint then everyone would have been happy. By the way, I did get the ComicXposure set of Venom (I love Clayton Crain and think he is under rated) and they arrived beautifully.

[Mysterio]

No, you are arguing with me about not arguing with you. Lol.

But you are right. no one held anyone hostage to buy anything. Also, Frankies had no control over the polybagging (they paid to have them bagged and boarded and this is what they got) which caused the damage to the books which everyone is unhappy about. If all the books came out Gem Mint then everyone would have been happy. By the way, I did get the ComicXposure set of Venom (I love Clayton Crain and think he is under rated) and they arrived beautifully.

You're a braver man than I! While I really like the Crain variant, there was no way I was going to wait 3 months (after it released!) to get a copy. I've had some bad experiences with Comixposer recently and I'm not buying anything from him until he fixes his turnaround times. I may wait and pick one up on eBay when the furor over it dies down.

[kaboom]

You're a braver man than I! While I really like the Crain variant, there was no way I was going to wait 3 months (after it released!) to get a copy. I've had some bad experiences with Comixposer recently and I'm not buying anything from him until he fixes his turnaround times. I may wait and pick one up on eBay when the furor over it dies down.

There is a furor over them? Quick, to ebay!

Seriously I got the three issue set and they are beautiful. Nice clean copies, no issues what so ever.

[fastballspecial]

Mysterio, I am not arguing or saying anyone did anything wrong, I was just summing up the arguments I saw.

The truth is, Frankie's can partner with whomever he wants to fund raise for the variants. The variants were expensive and they split the cost three ways. Nothing wrong with that. They had no idea the books would blow up, it was a risk. Look at what happened with ComicXposures Dell"otto Variants, nothing really. Again, I was just giving a summary to the arguments, not taking sides or casting aspersions.

I like the dialogue here and the summary is pretty good I think. Let me say it is very nice to just have a simple dialogue and discussion.

The area I bolded is the part that I struggle to believe. Its not a knock on the OP just I just think they did everything they could including hyping them on their site to ensure they blew up.

Never seen anything like that on any other site I know.

[Comix Guy]

This is laughable, at best...

[kaboom]

I like the dialogue here and the summary is pretty good I think. Let me say it is very nice to just have a simple dialogue and discussion.

The area I bolded is the part that I struggle to believe. Its not a knock on the OP just I just think they did everything they could including hyping them on their site to ensure they blew up.

Never seen anything like that on any other site I know.

What I meant by it is Dell'Otto is not a guaranteed sale, The ComicXposure Dell'Otto books for Renew Your Vows are still in stock and sell for pretty low prices on eBay.

I am not making comments on efforts to hype or anything else. There is a pretty good (very heated) discussion going on over on the CGC boards I have been following as well. The crux of the argument, in the least, is that there is a conflict of interest that they see. Again, i didn't buy the book and have no horse in the race either way. (I did not take it as a knock, but thank you for saying it, conversations are very civil here and I always appreciate it, unlike other boards and groups "too much drama in the LBC"- Snoop Dog)

[IndySportsCards]

conversations are very civil here and I always appreciate it, unlike other boards and groups "too much drama in the LBC"- Snoop Dog)

Having been here for a long time, this is a great observation for you to make as I see the same thing. It validated what I think, which make me think I'm in a good place here. It's why I like spending my time here with a great group of Junkies. Leave the drama for all those "investor/speculator" sites. These are comic books, it's supposed to be fun and lighthearted. I've seen people "BANNED" for life for offering opinions on other sites, which is ridiculous. Here we all offer opinions in a polite way, nobody gets bent out of shape over it. It's a great place to hang out. :)!

[Comix Guy]

There aren't nearly as many people on here as the other sites. Some on other sites even use their real names.

[IndySportsCards]

There aren't nearly as many people on here as the other sites. Some on other sites even use their real names.

That's fine. I prefer quality over quantity

[Comix Guy]

That's fine. I prefer quality over quantity

That's not the point. The more members the more chances things get derailed and bickering begins.
This is an open forum to join just as any of the others are.

[Spider-Fan]

That's not the point. The more members the more chances things get derailed and bickering begins.
This is an open forum to join just as any of the others are.

What disappoints me about the CGC board is the overwhelming amount to of childish responses and pretty much complete lack of grown up dialogue that any disagreement turns into. Like the sports sections here...

[Mysterio]

What disappoints me about the CGC board is the overwhelming amount to of childish responses and pretty much complete lack of grown up dialogue that any disagreement turns into. Like the sports sections here...

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll171/Designwonk/toughguy_zpsj6unabfi.jpg

Because if you don't have the EXACT same viewpoint as the majority, then you're wrong and you're going to hear about it. The internet has damaged civil dialogue immensely. I guarantee the snarkiness would be reduced to a minimum if these conversations were taking place face-to-face, looking each other in the eye.

[Spider-Fan]

Where did you get that picture of me?!? I was so handsome back then. Time has not been good to me.

[Comix Guy]

Yes, there is a severe lack of anyone ever being wrong.

[IndySportsCards]

Yes, there is a severe lack of anyone ever being wrong.

I'm wrong all the time. I have no problem saying that. I know what you're talking about though, see it a lot other places. :)!

[longisland]

Artificial speculation to sell cards is a real problem for some games, too.

[siro123]

This was brought up on another site, but its something worth considering.
Think about this. Someone runs a speculator site. They buy up a bunch of low print variants cheap. They run an article on them talking about how rare they are The article runs then the supply disappears and they start listing the books. They get a couple of sales and there it goes.

Is it that far fetched?

What is a 'Pyramid Scheme'
A pyramid scheme is an illegal investment scam based on a hierarchical setup. New recruits make up the base of the pyramid and provide the funding, or so-called returns, the earlier investors/recruits above them receive. A pyramid scheme does not involve the selling of products. Rather, it relies on the constant inflow of money from additional investors that works its way to the top of the pyramid.

Speculation Sites are Not Pyramid Schemes.