Potential fraud

[RodneyRx]

Is it against the rules to take a card out of its graded case and try to sell it without disclosing that fact? Person that did it is a member on here but the offense took place on eBay. I do have proof if needed. I can't stand cheaters but wanted to run it by admin

eBay name: kevin34jones34 is ebay name for Ameer Abdullah that was a 7.5 PSA 1/1 Topps Supreme now being sold as ungraded and out of original case for triple what it was purchased for

Persons blowoutcards name would be the name of the only person I've sold to on here but having trouble locating name from past. I literally have sold only one card, so you find that user and you have your man

[PensFan29]

I never get in early on the good ones...I'm in.

[jmscoggin]

This has come up many times and there is rarely ever a consensus. I fall on the side of it being shady. If the card was graded a 9, it's probably OK as that is what most people assume raw cards to be anyways. If it was lower and/or had an obvious flaw or defect, that flaw/defect should be disclosed when selling but that goes for any sale, not just one where a card was cracked out. The fact that it was cracked just makes it worse as it has removed plausible deniability.

[Ray27Ray52]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0HlBwsIWjIgEQXMk/giphy.gif

[BostonNut]

Spill the beans Dr. Rod....who is it?

[glen87]

Is it against the rules to take a card out of its graded case and try to sell it without disclosing that fact? Person that did it is a member on here but the offense took place on eBay. I do have proof if needed. I can't stand cheaters but wanted to run it by admin

need a lot more information

what was it graded?
how did they have it listed condition wise?

[Orangejello727]

Im against people who crack out cards from slabbed grades then try and upsell them. But as a buyer, if you are looking for a BGS 9 or 9.5, go out and buy one instead of trying to scoop up a raw version and hoping to hit that grade you are looking for.

For me personally I treat every raw card for sale to be 8 or less unless the the defect is stated clearly in which case I assume even worse. Stick to buying graded cards in slabs if you want a specific condition

[no10pin]

OP, anything to add? Definitely need more information to answer your questions.

[cardsharkk]

I dont believe it violates any specific rule...
Mostly because grades are just one persons "opinion" against another persons opinion.
And the "opinon" changes so easily it seems now adays.

EXAMPLE: I just had a Bomwan Chrome Mookie Gold Auto /50 BGS 9, with 8.5 subs I RESUBMITTED... Came back 9.5 Gem, with 3 BGS 10 sub grades now!! Biggest bump ive ever seen... So was it a 9 with damage to one of the subs, or a near perfect 10??

The answer is depends who is looking at it...

Also I sold my Aaron Judge Red Chrome Auto /5 BGS 8.5 last season.... it is now a BGS 9/10 since surface damage which was an 8, got bumped to a 9...

So a "grade" is not the end all be all... its just an opinon...which can easily change... which is why some will crack it out and sell raw, or re sub... As they say buy the card not the grade

[nanners13]

If i own a graded card and pop it out and re sell it raw, I could care less if you're bothered by it personally, It's my card to do as i please isnt it? Im not obligated to disclose squat if i throw it up on ebay. People do this Daily, Say you send a card to get graded that you think is a 9.5 and it comes back a 8, you pop it out and re list it raw as you will probably get more for it raw then graded a 8. This happens all the time daily. Nothing to snitch about IMHO

[seabass97166]

If you give an accurate description of the raw card, it makes no difference to me if you take it out of the graded case. That is just an opinion by 1 grader. You can send the same card in 5 times and get 5 different grades. If somebody wants a graded card they can buy a graded card.

If the card is trimmed, etc and sold as raw without disclosing, that is a different story. That is hiding a known defect.

[NYGiants72]

If i own a graded card and pop it out and re sell it raw, I could care less if you're bothered by it personally, It's my card to do as i please isnt it? Im not obligated to disclose squat if i throw it up on ebay. People do this Daily, Say you send a card to get graded that you think is a 9.5 and it comes back a 8, you pop it out and re list it raw as you will probably get more for it raw then graded a 8. This happens all the time daily. Nothing to snitch about IMHO

I think the common (and decent) expectation is that known flaws are disclosed with a sale whether you grade it or not. I think that is why its fair to expect an ethical seller to generally disclose defects for cards that would grade at the 8.5 or below, because these are usually fairly obvious (my few 8.5s are).

Your suggested approach advocates doing something to mask the condition of a card to make more money from a seller. Could the seller have done more diligence or ponied up for a Graded 9? Absolutely. Does that fact make the seller any less unethical in my mind? No.

I'd personally like to know the IDs and names of sellers who do this so I can avoid their ungraded stuff, given the high probability that anything high-end they sell has been a failed attempt to receive a decent grade.

[chezball]

This has potential and we'll see members outing themselves as shady.

[jmscoggin]

If i own a graded card and pop it out and re sell it raw, I could care less if you're bothered by it personally, It's my card to do as i please isnt it? Im not obligated to disclose squat if i throw it up on ebay. People do this Daily, Say you send a card to get graded that you think is a 9.5 and it comes back a 8, you pop it out and re list it raw as you will probably get more for it raw then graded a 8. This happens all the time daily. Nothing to snitch about IMHO

People do lots of things daily, that doesn't make them ethical. Your last line is very telling.

[jcardstore]

Oh boy, this is going to get real good. I love it when shady people out themselves :popcorn:

[Clarka3]

it's definitely shady if you bust it and then don't disclose that it was previously graded at whatever grade it was.

[jmscoggin]

If i own a graded card and pop it out and re sell it raw, I could care less if you're bothered by it personally, It's my card to do as i please isnt it? Im not obligated to disclose squat if i throw it up on ebay. People do this Daily, Say you send a card to get graded that you think is a 9.5 and it comes back a 8, you pop it out and re list it raw as you will probably get more for it raw then graded a 8. This happens all the time daily. Nothing to snitch about IMHO

Just in the last month you've had two Ebay negs, who would have thunk it based on your quoted gem above? Oh yeah, everyone.

Negative feedback rating - BOOTLEG. Bad quality dvd - skips & freezes. NOT at all what seller promised.

Negative feedback rating - Poor quality. Unwearable condition. NOT authentic tour shirt - cheap knockoff.

[NonSportsCardForum]

If i own a graded card and pop it out and re sell it raw, I could care less if you're bothered by it personally, It's my card to do as i please isnt it? Im not obligated to disclose squat if i throw it up on ebay. People do this Daily, Say you send a card to get graded that you think is a 9.5 and it comes back a 8, you pop it out and re list it raw as you will probably get more for it raw then graded a 8. This happens all the time daily. Nothing to snitch about IMHO


This reply made me cringe sooooooo much.

[dherm360]

assemble Posse

[seabass97166]

it's definitely shady if you bust it and then don't disclose that it was previously graded at whatever grade it was.

Don't mean to be difficult but if my card got an 8.5/10 and I popped it out of the case said card is NR-MT+, what is the difference?

What is it got a 9 auto grade and you popped it out - do you need to say "this got a 9 auto"?
Where do you draw the line?

What if you take a card to a Raw Card Review and get a 9, and proceed cut it out - why would they say "keep in mind, this got a 9 at a recent RCR"... That's the whole point of the RCR...quick review..if you like it you can slab - if you don't like it they make it easy to cut it out for a reason. At least now the seller can say card is Mint.

Keep in mind, I have a card currently for sale., slabbed as "authentic" because I want full disclosure, I would never sell a trimmed card trying to pass it off as otherwise

But...I don't know why somebody has to say what a card got if the description reflects what grade it got.
When buying raw..NEVER expect Gem mint. I'm already guessing they would have had it graded 9.5 if they could have.

If they say card is NM-MT+....ok, as a buyer that means this probably would get a 9.5, so if that is my hopes I am being warned.

[Clarka3]

Don't mean to be difficult but if my card got an 8.5/10 and I popped it out of the case said card is NR-MT+, what is the difference?
Lets say it's a thick card, corners don't grade well usually. If I decide to pop it out, it's my card. As long as the description is not misleading. Grading is optional and opinions vary like the wind. Even the same grader probably wouldn't grade the same twice in row.

What is it got a 9 auto grade and you popped it out - do you need to say "this got a 9 auto"?
Where do you draw the line? If you take it a RCR and get a 9, and cut it out - why would they say "keep in mind, this got a 9 at a recent RCR"... they can say card is Mint...because at least now they know it's Mint.

Keep in mind, I have a card currently for sale., slabbed as "authentic" because I want full disclosure, I would never sell a trimmed card trying to pass it off as otherwise

But...I don't know why somebody has to say what a card got if the description reflects what grade it got.
Let the buyer figure it out. Card is NM-MT+....ok, as a buyer that means this probably would get a 9.5, so if that is my hopes I am being warned.



well, i think it's still shady knowing something about it and not disclosing it. You wouldn't want a car salesman to sell you a car that they knew had been serviced recently and didn't get the greatest prognosis. Maybe there's nothing totally wrong about the vehicle, but the guy knows that it isn't in tip top shape. Sure, they are selling it As Is, but i'm pretty sure there are still lemon laws that cover consumers from serious deception.

Translate this to a card. A buyer thinks they are getting a raw card, not a card that was already graded and then busted out in hopes of getting a higher payout.


if you said "busted it out after getting this grade, full disclosure" you're set. You're being up front with your buyers.


i have no dog in the fight though, as I don't buy/grade cards, so i'm not in the business of trying to get a raw card graded and flip for a premium. I just think i'd be a little salty as a buyer if the seller knowingly busted it out of the case and didn't disclose that.


edit to add- would you be happy buying a pound of ground beef from the store that has one date on it for a few days later, but the store previously took it out of it's old package that says it was expiring today?

[seabass97166]

I hear you. I just think if buying raw, never expected a 9.5 because it would already be graded.

I expect the seller to already have done their due diligence and tried to get it graded already.

[nanners13]

Just in the last month you've had two Ebay negs, who would have thunk it based on your quoted gem above? Oh yeah, everyone.

Negative feedback rating - BOOTLEG. Bad quality dvd - skips & freezes. NOT at all what seller promised.

Negative feedback rating - Poor quality. Unwearable condition. NOT authentic tour shirt - cheap knockoff.

i sell clothes on my ebay,,,,,, I received two negatives from the same buyer, i was not given the opportunity to do anything about the buyers displeasure (or else i would have) you clearly saw my reply on these negatives, I have outstanding feedback on my ebay and you can scroll over all the pages to back that. I cant help it one person wasn't satisfied. (that's their right) i took 2 negatives and moved on, Its not the end of the world. I know I always give outstanding customer service and am ok with one bad apple.


So nice of you to Highlight up my feedback. :)!

I dont sell Graded cards. My comment was to the OP that this practice happens daily. I was using a made up example of exactly what happens. People get so butt hurt nowdays (like you,jmscoggin,,., didnt mean to upset you pal)
I think i should have made this part bold in my first post..."I could care less if you're bothered by it personally, It's my card to do as i please isnt it"

[chezball]

I hear you. I just think if buying raw, never expected a 9.5 because it would already be graded.

I expect the seller to already have done their due diligence and tried to get it graded already.

This thinking is very flawed, look at all the members that open new product.
Brent, auctionjim, dback and many others, I'm sure tons of 9.5's are being sold by them.

[jmscoggin]

*****

[nanners13]

Not the slightest bit "butt hurt", I just detest shady people, people that are illiterate and people that come off like a-holes ... people like you.

i sent you a PM we need to talk, you don't know me:)!

[chezball]

*****

Really, wasn't any need to do this.

[Davesportscards]

double post

[Davesportscards]

If i own a graded card and pop it out and re sell it raw, I could care less if you're bothered by it personally, It's my card to do as i please isnt it? Im not obligated to disclose squat if i throw it up on ebay. People do this Daily, Say you send a card to get graded that you think is a 9.5 and it comes back a 8, you pop it out and re list it raw as you will probably get more for it raw then graded a 8. This happens all the time daily. Nothing to snitch about IMHO

Zero moral compass.

[Davesportscards]

i sell clothes on my ebay,,,,,, I received two negatives from the same buyer, i was not given the opportunity to do anything about the buyers displeasure (or else i would have) you clearly saw my reply on these negatives, I have outstanding feedback on my ebay and you can scroll over all the pages to back that. I cant help it one person wasn't satisfied. (that's their right) i took 2 negatives and moved on, Its not the end of the world. I know I always give outstanding customer service and am ok with one bad apple.


So nice of you to Highlight up my feedback. :)!

I dont sell Graded cards. My comment was to the OP that this practice happens daily. I was using a made up example of exactly what happens. People get so butt hurt nowdays (like you,jmscoggin,,., didnt mean to upset you pal)
I think i should have made this part bold in my first post..."I could care less if you're bothered by it personally, It's my card to do as i please isnt it"
Apparently not...

[chezball]

i sent you a PM we need to talk, you don't know me:)!

https://media.giphy.com/media/OqprHEhrBpmdq/giphy.gif

[NYGiants72]

I hear you. I just think if buying raw, never expected a 9.5 because it would already be graded.

I expect the seller to already have done their due diligence and tried to get it graded already.

So I agree with you on your expectations generally. Grade never mattered much to me and the cards I do grade have been for PC purposes only. **EDIT: It has been pointed out to me that 'I like it raw'** But if I buy it raw - I assume its a 9. That said, because I dont care about grading, I have sold a few raw cards that later got a 10 (notified by very happy buyers). To me the time and expense of grading cards isnt worth the margin.

My problem with cracking a case and selling a card raw is that I see no legitimate reason to crack a card out of a case (given it is the best protection) to sell, unless it is to hide the condition of a card.

But yes - no sympathy for buyers who expect an insanely high grade for raw, and my biggest pet peeve are buyers who badger repeatedly to have you speculate regarding the grade of a raw card you are selling.

[chezball]

So I agree with you on your expectations generally. Grade never mattered much to me and the cards I do grade have been for PC purposes only. **EDIT: It has been pointed out to me that 'I like it raw'** But if I buy it raw - I assume its a 9. That said, because I dont care about grading, I have sold a few raw cards that later got a 10 (notified by very happy buyers). To me the time and expense of grading cards isnt worth the margin.

My problem with cracking a case and selling a card raw is that I see no legitimate reason to crack a card out of a case (given it is the best protection) to sell, unless it is to hide the condition of a card.

But yes - no sympathy for buyers who expect an insanely high grade for raw, and my biggest pet peeve are buyers who badger repeatedly to have you speculate regarding the grade of a raw card you are selling.
I just tell them, I'm not a grader then proceed to put them on my BBL.
Because they are only going to be trouble down the road.

[seabass97166]

This thinking is very flawed, look at all the members that open new product.
Brent, auctionjim, dback and many others, I'm sure tons of 9.5's are being sold by them.

Yes, new stuff sure no doubt - I mean high end ..but you're right

[jmscoggin]

Grade never mattered much to me and the cards I do grade have been for PC purposes only. If I buy it raw - I assume its a 9. That said, because I dont care about grading, I have sold a few raw cards that later got a 10 (notified by very happy buyers). To me the time and expense of grading cards isnt worth the margin.

My problem with cracking a case and selling a card raw is that I see no legitimate reason to crack a card out of a case (given it is the best protection) to sell, unless it is to hide the condition of a card.

But yes - no sympathy for buyers who expect an insanely high grade for raw, and my biggest pet peeve are buyers who badger repeatedly to have you speculate regarding the grade of a raw card you are selling.

This is a good point and I too am this way. When I buy raw cards I expect them to arrive in the 8.5 - 9 range. I don't grade and I don't expect cards that would gem. However, I'm sick and tired of receiving cards that would be lucky to get a 7 and rarely do the sellers ever call out any issues ahead of time. The typical shady kick the problem down the road attitude, same as was given by Mr. Snitch.

When I sell I always disclose and/or photograph any and all issues with the item be it sports cards or anything else. I also don't cherry pick out the good cards for grading nor buy sub standard graded cards to crack them and resell them as better than I know them to be. I have sold many cards that later gemmed, that's great for the buyers.

That's how integrity works, always doing the right thing regardless if doing the wrong thing might make you an extra buck or two. My reputation > money.

[Brobocop]

Im against people who crack out cards from slabbed grades then try and upsell them. But as a buyer, if you are looking for a BGS 9 or 9.5, go out and buy one instead of trying to scoop up a raw version and hoping to hit that grade you are looking for.

For me personally I treat every raw card for sale to be 8 or less unless the the defect is stated clearly in which case I assume even worse. Stick to buying graded cards in slabs if you want a specific condition

I think this is how I would feel too. Want a certain grade, pay up for it. Otherwise, just buy the card you want, not the grade you want.

[hche]

Is it fraud? No, unless the card was graded 8 and you listed it as gem-mint.

Is it unethical without full disclosure? Personally, I think yes. I also know other people that think otherwise.

[chezball]

This is a good point and I too am this way. When I buy raw cards I expect them to arrive in the 8.5 - 9 range. I don't grade and I don't expect cards that would gem. However, I'm sick and tired of receiving cards that would be lucky to get a 7 and rarely do the sellers ever call out any issues ahead of time. The typical shady kick the problem down the road attitude, same as was given by Mr. Snitch.

When I sell I always disclose and/or photograph any and all issues with the item be it sports cards or anything else. I also don't cherry pick out the good cards for grading nor buy sub standard graded cards to crack them and resell them as better than I know them to be. I have sold many cards that later gemmed, that's great for the buyers.

That's how integrity works, always doing the right thing regardless if doing the wrong thing might make you an extra buck or two. My reputation > money.
Yeah that's right, what about it.
https://media.giphy.com/media/CdVeTKh3mLSi4/giphy.gif

[jmscoggin]

Yeah that's right, what about it.

That rat would put me to shame. I've been out of the gym for awhile, not sure I could press as much weight as he is, my neck would be snapped by the bar for sure.

[chugga15]

My approach to ethical issues is:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". (learned this gem in preschool)

I would not want to pay more for a card because the seller decided to hide condition issues. Therefore, I have no right to do that to other people.

[jcardstore]

The problem is that you've got shady people like bobby bus driver who buy raw stuff in hopes that they gem and when there's any minute issue "massage" the truth to get out of the deal.

[smacky]

God Bless You Brandin Cooks # To 99

[rcmb3220]

It happens a lot. Some sellers get up at 4am every day just to crack cards out of cases.

[chugga15]

It happens a lot. Some sellers get up at 4am every day just to crack cards out of cases.

Are they trying to reach their, target investment value?

[JMarchand1981]

I am going to use the bathroom later tonight. I hope this thread delivers.

[bigboyd3]

Don't mean to be difficult but if my card got an 8.5/10 and I popped it out of the case said card is NR-MT+, what is the difference?

What is it got a 9 auto grade and you popped it out - do you need to say "this got a 9 auto"?
Where do you draw the line?

What if you take a card to a Raw Card Review and get a 9, and proceed cut it out - why would they say "keep in mind, this got a 9 at a recent RCR"... That's the whole point of the RCR...quick review..if you like it you can slab - if you don't like it they make it easy to cut it out for a reason. At least now the seller can say card is Mint.

Keep in mind, I have a card currently for sale., slabbed as "authentic" because I want full disclosure, I would never sell a trimmed card trying to pass it off as otherwise

But...I don't know why somebody has to say what a card got if the description reflects what grade it got.
When buying raw..NEVER expect Gem mint. I'm already guessing they would have had it graded 9.5 if they could have.

If they say card is NM-MT+....ok, as a buyer that means this probably would get a 9.5, so if that is my hopes I am being warned.

Completely agree. If you are accurately describing the raw card there is no need to disclose if it was graded in the past. You are selling the card in it's current form, not in a graded case. I have seen instances were a BGS 8 was cracked out, sent to PSA and received a PSA 10. If it's sold as a PSA 10 does the seller need to state that it was previously graded a BGS 8?

In other instances, people would prefer to have a raw card then have a card graded an 8/8.5/9 as it displays better. And yes.. we sometimes crack out items but we always describe them accurately. Just yesterday, someone asked about the condition of a Connor McDavid Exquisite Auto Patch and asked for close up corner pictures. The card is described as nrmt/mint or better. To save time, I replied that the card was previously graded BGS 8.5 and had an 8.5 corner grade.

[notsublime]

Completely agree. If you are accurately describing the raw card there is no need to disclose if it was graded in the past. You are selling the card in it's current form, not in a graded case. I have seen instances were a BGS 8 was cracked out, sent to PSA and received a PSA 10. If it's sold as a PSA 10 does the seller need to state that it was previously graded a BGS 8?

In other instances, people would prefer to have a raw card then have a card graded an 8/8.5/9 as it displays better. And yes.. we sometimes crack out items but we always describe them accurately. Just yesterday, someone asked about the condition of a Connor McDavid Exquisite Auto Patch and asked for close up corner pictures. The card is described as nrmt/mint or better. To save time, I replied that the card was previously graded BGS 8.5 and had an 8.5 corner grade.

I'd love to see one of these "for instances"

[4SeamCollect]

I used to sell a lot more on eBay. I used high quality scans and always let people know that I wasn't a professional grader and that they would be getting what was shown. I never sold cards with obvious imperfections and if I did, it would have been noted. If a card had been graded and had imperfections AND I were to bust it out of the case, which I would never do, I would have noted those in the listing. Even great scans don't always pick up minor flaws so I've always sold under the condition of "pack fresh" because I don't want to give false expectations. In my opinion, busting it out and relisting it without the flaws being in the description is plain wrong.

[bigboyd3]

I'd love to see one of these "for instances"

Have seen a centered Kobe BGS 8 cracked out and received a PSA 10. Wasn't recently, 2-3 years ago.

[jmscoggin]

Have seen a centered Kobe BGS 8 cracked out and received a PSA 10. Wasn't recently, 2-3 years ago.

You deal with how many thousands of cards per year yet have to go back "2-3 years ago" to find ONE example? I think you're doing a better job of proving our point than you are of refuting it.

I don't want to overreact, if someone cracks out an 8 and it has no noticeable flaws other than being off centered or something that would be extremely obvious in listing pictures, I don't think it should be mandatory to mention the previous grade in the listing. I would but then again, I wouldn't have cracked it out to sell it raw in the first place. However, if a card has nicks, dimples, creases, chipping etc, that absolutely should be mentioned even if the card had been cracked out of a PSA 10 slab.

[chugga15]

I just don't understand why anyone would crack a case when they are attempting to sell. In my opinion, the only motivating factor would be to increase the sale value at the expense of the buyer. If a buyer thinks it would display better, then they are fully capable of taking the card out of the case. If anything, the case would help protect the card during transit.

[bigboyd3]

You deal with how many thousands of cards per year yet have to go back "2-3 years ago" to find ONE example? I think you're doing a better job of proving our point than you are of refuting it.

We aren't big graders, have probably cracked out 5 BGS cards lifetime and sent to PSA so don't really have a lot of examples. We grade approximately 500 cards per year with PSA. Have not had a card graded by beckett in 10+ years. 95% of all graded cards we sell are purchased graded.

[jmscoggin]

I just don't understand why anyone would crack a case when they are attempting to sell. In my opinion, the only motivating factor would be to increase the sale value at the expense of the buyer. If a buyer thinks it would display better, then they are fully capable of taking the card out of the case. If anything, the case would help protect the card during transit.

Exactly this. I get that many people won't want a big fat silver 8 (or worse) on their PC card. Still, I would do the right thing and sell it honestly. If the buyer chooses to crack it out themselves to keep it or be shady and sell it, that's on them but I won't be doing it. I can't say it enough, I will always choose, integrity > money.

[jmscoggin]

We aren't big graders, have probably cracked out 5 BGS cards lifetime and sent to PSA so don't really have a lot of examples. We grade approximately 500 cards per year with PSA. Have not had a card graded by beckett in 10+ years. 95% of all graded cards we sell are purchased graded.

Fair enough. Even so, it mystifies me that you continue to enter threads like these and even more so that you take the positions that you do once in them. You know full well that you have a very poor reputation as far as integrity and whether it is justified or not is irrelevant, perception is reality.

If I was in your position you wouldn't find me within 100 miles of a thread like this, much less justifying the position that it's OK to crack cards without disclosing that when later selling them. I get you being on the boards, it's good marketing but your execution is lacking. You're definitely entitled to your points of view whatever they may be, I just don't understand why you would continue to take stances that would further leave your integrity open to scrutiny.

[bigboyd3]

Fair enough. Even so, it mystifies me that you continue to enter threads like these and even more so that you take the positions that you do once in them. You know full well that you have a very poor reputation as far as integrity and whether it is justified or not is irrelevant, perception is reality.

If I was in your position you wouldn't find me within 100 miles of a thread like this, much less justifying the position that it's OK to crack cards without disclosing that when later selling them. I get you being on the boards, it's good marketing but your execution is lacking. You're definitely entitled to your points of view whatever they may be, I just don't understand why you would continue to take stances that would further leave your integrity open to scrutiny.


I enjoy the discussion. I'm going to give my honest opinion and we've starting using these boards lately. Have actually spent a lot of money the last couple weeks... There shouldn't be any scrutiny over this. My opnion was already public knowledge on these boards from a previous thread anyway about an Andrew Luck BGS 9/10 Auto that was busted out and sold raw. By your term that was ok though right? But it's not ok to bust out an 8 and list it as nrmt/mint? You make no sense. That's exactly what it is, nrmt/mint. It baffles me why anyone would grade a card that is going to get an 8 anyhow.

I'm not sure why you have a problem with me and want to create conflict. You even entered the Mike Trout thread after we received the card back and said you were "surprised everyone was positive" like you were hoping someone would say something negative. I don't understand why you are so negative and looking for conflict. Oh well. I'm entitled to my opinion and just because you have a different opinion does not mean I am wrong.

[xplainer]

It happens a lot. Some sellers get up at 4am every day just to crack cards out of cases.

I feel ya. :)!:coffee:

[jmscoggin]

I enjoy the discussion. I'm going to give my honest opinion and we've starting using these boards lately. Have actually spent a lot of money the last couple weeks... There shouldn't be any scrutiny over this. My opnion was already public knowledge on these boards from a previous thread anyway about an Andrew Luck BGS 9/10 Auto that was busted out and sold raw. By your term that was ok though right? But it's not ok to bust out an 8 and list it as nrmt/mint? You make no sense. That's exactly what it is, nrmt/mint. It baffles me why anyone would grade a card that is going to get an 8 anyhow.

So which is it?

* But it's not ok to bust out an 8 and list it as nrmt/mint?
* It baffles me why anyone would grade a card that is going to get an 8 anyhow.

You insinuate that there is nothing wrong with cracking out an 8 and listing it without saying it had been an 8 as if an 8 is a perfectly good grade. Then, in your very next sentence, you are baffled why anyone would send in an 8 as if an 8 is the most awful thing in the world. Do you not see the contradiction?

I'm not sure why you have a problem with me and want to create conflict. You even entered the Mike Trout thread after we received the card back and said you were "surprised everyone was positive" like you were hoping someone would say something negative. I don't understand why you are so negative and looking for conflict. Oh well. I'm entitled to my opinion and just because you have a different opinion does not mean I am wrong.

I don't have a problem with you, don't try to play the victim. I've defended you far more than I've criticized. Yes, I was surprised because everywhere you go people attack you and that was the first time I'd seen a thread where it wasn't happening. It was an observation, nothing more.

I've already said that you were entitled to your opinion and I agree that just because your opinion is different than mine doesn't automatically mean it is wrong (it is here though).

My entire post was about the fact that you are trying to run a business. A business that is centered around the same hobby that this site is. Your business has a very poor reputation which is undeniable. Any PR firm in the world would advise you to steer clear of anything that could further hurt your reputation but you refuse to do so.

I don't dislike you, I like that you speak your mind, I have purchased from you and will continue to do so. Having said that, I will also speak my mind, I'm incapable of not doing so, much like you. The difference is, I'm not representing a business that depends on the people in this hobby for it's survival. If I piss people off, meh. If you do, business gets lost.

[bigboyd3]

So which is it?

* But it's not ok to bust out an 8 and list it as nrmt/mint?
* It baffles me why anyone would grade a card that is going to get an 8 anyhow.

You insinuate that there is nothing wrong with cracking out an 8 and listing it without saying it had been an 8 as if an 8 is a perfectly good grade. Then, in your very next sentence, you are baffled why anyone would send in an 8 as if an 8 is the most awful thing in the world. Do you not see the contradiction?


I can see where it can be seen as a contradiction, but did not mean for it to be one. I purchase as many raw cards as anyone and I expect them all to be nrmt/mint (8-9 quality) unless otherwise noted. I would much rather have that card raw (8 quality) than have an 8 graded. My personal preference.




My entire post was about the fact that you are trying to run a business. A business that is centered around the same hobby that this site is. Your business has a very poor reputation which is undeniable. Any PR firm in the world would advise you to steer clear of anything that could further hurt your reputation but you refuse to do so.

It is not undeniable. You are wrong. We have a bad reputation to a handful of people, primarily on these boards, based primarily on misconceptions. We have a very good reputation to 99.99% of people in this business/hobby. Our "reputation" sure hasn't hurt our business on these boards. Have had no problem doing business here.

Now, lets please not make this thread about me and my business, keep it on point.

Never did get your opinion on this - if someone had a PSA 8.5, cracked it and sent to BGS and received a BGS 9.5. Is the seller supposed to say it was graded a PSA 8.5 in the title? In the description? At all?

[jmscoggin]

Now, lets please not make this thread about me and my business, keep it on point.

Fair enough.

Never did get your opinion on this - if someone had a PSA 8.5, cracked it and sent to BGS and received a BGS 9.5. Is the seller supposed to say it was graded a PSA 8.5 in the title? In the description? At all?

I did answer it, just not directly. I'm the same as you, when I buy raw I'm expecting to receive something in the 8-9 range. However, even if the card could ultimately get an overall 9, if it had some type of chipping or noticeable damage, that should be mentioned by the seller when listing.

Having said all of that, if the original card was an 8.5 but had no noticeable flaws other then centering which is plainly apparent, no, I don't think you should be required to disclose that when selling, even taking the other part of the scenario out of the equation. Even so, I personally would still disclose it if I had even cracked it out to begin with (I wouldn't have).

There are only two logical reasons for a seller to crack out a card that he is selling;

1.) The slab is damaged, cracked, scratched or chipped and it is easier and cheaper to just sell the card raw than to reslab it.

2.) To defraud a buyer into thinking the card is better than PSA/BGS/SGC said that it was.

I think we both know which happens more often.

[bigboyd3]

2.) To defraud a buyer into thinking the card is better than PSA/BGS/SGC said that it was.



You are not defrauding a buyer if you are accurately describing the item. Why do people do it? Because, in most cases, a raw nrmt/mint card is worth more than a graded nrmt/mint card. That's obviously why people do it. Okay, I'm done on here for the night.. It's been fun.

[Saraste]

In my listings I only guarantee nm on my cards. Very rarely would a card of mine classify as nm. If there a noticeable flaw that I see, I list it in the description. That said, I have had people come back and say they got 10's on my cards. I just don't grade much. I have only sent in about 30 cards total to be graded and I still have all but 2.

I generally expect raw cards I purchase to be nm or better. In terms of cracking cards, I have no problem with it for resubbing purposes. In terms of reselling raw, if a card is less than an 8, the flaw(s) should be pointed out if there are not obvious centering related. This especially applies if there are surface issues that are generally difficult to show in pictures.

[1yunggun]

When buying cards, I could really care less whether or not it has been previously graded as long as it is in Nm/mt or better conditon when it arrives. That is what you generally agree upon when buying a card anywhere (unless the condition is stated as mint or gem mint). If you are a person who buys raw to grade and resell, please don't buy from me and expect everything gem mint or better as all my cards are nm/mt or better and I will never guarantee anything more.

What would happen if a seller said the card previously graded a 9, and then gets regraded by new owner and gets an 8.5? Would the new buyer be in the right to return it ? No, but I'm sure there are some that would still try!!!

[4SeamCollect]

What would happen if a seller said the card previously graded a 9, and then gets regraded by new owner and gets an 8.5? Would the new buyer be in the right to return it ? No, but I'm sure there are some that would still try!!!

I think they would be in the right to return it. That's basically the seller saying that it is a 9 before the sale. There are too many variables to consider such as damage during shipping. That's why it's a terrible idea to say it unless the seller cracked it themselves and is willing to stand behind that statement of it grades lower. Which is also why cracking it is a bad idea in general. It opens too many doors for headaches in the future. As stated before, grading is so subjective that who evens knows what will grade what? Even saying that the card is near mint could open doors for returns if it got graded a 5 or 6 down the road. This is why I like the "pack fresh" condition. It went from the pack to the sleeve and top loader. There's nothing to argue about later no matter what it may grade.

[1yunggun]

I think they would be in the right to return it. That's basically the seller saying that it is a 9 before the sale. There are too many variables to consider such as damage during shipping. That's why it's a terrible idea to say it unless the seller cracked it themselves and is willing to stand behind that statement of it grades lower. Which is also why cracking it is a bad idea in general. It opens too many doors for headaches in the future. As stated before, grading is so subjective that who evens knows what will grade what? Even saying that the card is near mint could open doors for returns if it got graded a 5 or 6 down the road. This is why I like the "pack fresh" condition. It went from the pack to the sleeve and top loader. There's nothing to argue about later no matter what it may grade.

Just because you disclosed that a card was PREVIOUSLY graded a 9, does not mean that you are buying a 9. It could be a 9.5 or an 8.5 next time. You just never know! You should always assume a raw card to be nm/mt or better , nothing more, nothing less IMO.

Is the same card you said was previously graded a 9 going to get returned to seller when it comes back a 9.5 next time? Heck no! Why should it be any different if it's an 8.5 the next time it's graded??? Just my opinion though.

[4SeamCollect]

Just because you disclosed that a card was PREVIOUSLY graded a 9, does not mean that you are buying a 9. It could be a 9.5 or an 8.5 next time. You just never know! You should always assume a raw card to be nm/mt or better , nothing more, nothing less IMO.

Is the same card you said was previously graded a 9 going to get returned to seller when it comes back a 9.5 next time? Heck no! Why should it be any different if it's an 8.5 the next time it's graded??? Just my opinion though.

Yeah, it's a slippery slope. On one hand, being honest about it is a great thing but can open the door for false claims. On the other, being dishonest by hiding the previous grade makes the seller seem less than stellar. Maybe in these cases it's best to include a disclaimer saying something like "it previously graded a 9 but I offer no guarantee of a future grade due to the subjective nature of grading."

[no10pin]

OP creating this thread

https://img.devrant.io/devrant/rant/r_472693_c9GYn.gif

[DSizzle31]

"I could care less if you're bothered by it personally, It's my card to do as i please isnt it"

Please watch this video. At the 1:07 mark, I think you'll find it very informative.

8Gv0H-vPoDc

[Bcwcardz]

If i own a graded card and pop it out and re sell it raw, I could care less if you're bothered by it personally, It's my card to do as i please isnt it? Im not obligated to disclose squat if i throw it up on ebay. People do this Daily, Say you send a card to get graded that you think is a 9.5 and it comes back a 8, you pop it out and re list it raw as you will probably get more for it raw then graded a 8. This happens all the time daily. Nothing to snitch about IMHO
Why everyone doesn't think like this is beyond me. Just because some joker had it slabbed and I don't want it slabbed so I bust it out. Now I have to disclose this. That's crazy. What else do I have to disclose? That I moved 3 times while the card was in my possession. Its just totally absurd that this has to be disclosed.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[chugga15]

Why everyone doesn't think like this is beyond me. Just because some joker had it slabbed and I don't want it slabbed so I bust it out. Now I have to disclose this. That's crazy. What else do I have to disclose? That I moved 3 times while the card was in my possession. Its just totally absurd that this has to be disclosed.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

This is a horrible argument, and it is chock-full of logical fallacies. No one is saying that is wrong to bust a card out of a slab. However, once you dispose of the slab, and you try to pass it off as a better conditioned card, then that is ethically wrong. A better argument is to ask if you would take the slab off of a 9.5 or 10 graded card and sell it?

Yes, you should disclose the condition of the card. A grade is one metric to describe that card, and more information in a market is a good thing.

[mjwoop]

Please watch this video. At the 1:07 mark, I think you'll find it very informative.

8Gv0H-vPoDc

Haha, I always think of that song when people say they could care less as well.

[4SeamCollect]

Why everyone doesn't think like this is beyond me. Just because some joker had it slabbed and I don't want it slabbed so I bust it out. Now I have to disclose this. That's crazy. What else do I have to disclose? That I moved 3 times while the card was in my possession. Its just totally absurd that this has to be disclosed.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

I guess it all depends on what condition you tell your buyer it is. If you bust a PSA 5 and state that the card is near mint then you are slimy. If you say the card is in excellent condition then you're probably a good seller. The issue isn't whether it has been graded or not but rather if you're trying to deceive the buyer.

[wheeler281]

I have no issues with guys busting out 8s and 9's selling for raw. As long as as stated its nm in the description. So I wouldn't label anyone doing that shady. It would be the lower grades then saying then saying the card is still near mint.
Also, Many guys request a 9 or higher minimum grade when sending them in or they don't get slabbed. I wouldn't expect them to put that in their listing

[Knucklesf05]

Hey guys I don't have a dog in the fight but I can tell you 100% there is a card I just looked into trading for in one of the for sale threads that used to be graded and is not listed as previously graded (not saying it needs to be disclosed) just bringing it to peoples attention so they dont overpay

[Branesergen]

Hey guys I don't have a dog in the fight but I can tell you 100% there is a card I just looked into trading for in one of the for sale threads that used to be graded and is not listed as previously graded (not saying it needs to be disclosed) just bringing it to peoples attention so they dont overpay

Thanks! I have a 1 in 1000 shot at finding it now!

[Knucklesf05]

Dont wanna call out since its only frowned upon...

[cruiserdaddy7]

Hey guys I don't have a dog in the fight but I can tell you 100% there is a card I just looked into trading for in one of the for sale threads that used to be graded and is not listed as previously graded (not saying it needs to be disclosed) just bringing it to peoples attention so they dont overpay

Awfully vague. How is that bringing it to our attention?

[nfcsaints]

I am putting together a master 2001 Topps Archives Reserve set (base, jersey, auto). Two of the autos (Dickerson and Sanders, I think) were purchased as PSA 9s. I cracked the cases so I could keep the set consistent with how I'm storing it (9 pocket in binder). I don't have concerns about the condition because they looked great to me (in my mind potentially undergraded). However, I've kept the PSA labels for this particular reason.....if I ever sell (not likely) I want to be able to provide full disclosure to the buyer (even though I could easily "say nothing"). I don't have a specific reason why I thought I'd want to forward that info to a potential buyer......I just "did".

All that's to say this, I think it just comes down to mental makeup. I happend to think of it and others may simply NOT think of it. People outside of those groups either don't care or are potentially acting shady. The issues of dimples, blemishes, dings, etc on a raw card should be disclosed in all cases. Period. The fact it was once graded (to me anyway) is a non-factor if issues are honestly disclosed.

[RodneyRx]

FB group I'm in spotted it bc he was original seller when it was PSA graded at 7.5. It's now listed on eBay out of case. I'm new to this forum, use my phone and after 20 minutes of trying to post a photo I have given up lol. Sorry for delay in response, my home town was rocked by a tornado. It won't take much research to find out who it is considering it's a 1/1 listed on eBay, at least at the time of my post. JavonRinger or something close to that is name of person on blowoutcards. I can get exact name if needed

[4SeamCollect]

This one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Ameer-Abdullah-Topps-Supreme-Rookie-Autograph-Jumbo-Patch-RC-Auto-1-1-/262976842192?hash=item3d3aa429d0:g:A2sAAOSwq1JZEljb

Here is the graded one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Supreme-Ameer-Abdullah-RPA-1-1-Graded-7-5-/292053883180?hash=item43ffc4992c:g:hRUAAOSw4CFYxeSB

Are those the same? The seller does say it's near mint so he's not really lying or anything.

[RodneyRx]

Guy was purposefully trying to deceive. I don't care what you're selling, I want to know the truth at the very least so that I could make an informed decision and know who I'm dealing with. I'm trying to help the "next" guy so at least he knows who he's dealing with and doesn't get burned. And my reference was a 7.5 graded 1/1 not a 9 vs 9.5. Thanks for all the feedback and I apologize if my posts are a bit disorganized, again, brand new member just trying to help

[RodneyRx]

This one?

2015 Ameer Abdullah Topps Supreme Rookie Autograph Jumbo Patch RC Auto 1/1 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Ameer-Abdullah-Topps-Supreme-Rookie-Autograph-Jumbo-Patch-RC-Auto-1-1-/262976842192?hash=item3d3aa429d0:g:A2sAAOSwq1JZEljb)

Here is the graded one:

2015 Topps Supreme Ameer Abdullah RPA 1/1!! Graded 7.5. | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Supreme-Ameer-Abdullah-RPA-1-1-Graded-7-5-/292053883180?hash=item43ffc4992c:g:hRUAAOSw4CFYxeSB)

Are those the same? The seller does say it's near mint so he's not really lying or anything.

I flat out asked if it had been graded, and his response was no. I gave him every opportunity to tell the truth

[4SeamCollect]

I flat out asked if it had been graded, and his response was no. I gave him every opportunity to tell the truth

If that's the case then the seller is being deceitful. No way they weren't aware when the closed listing still pops up on eBay.

[4SeamCollect]

Hey guys I don't have a dog in the fight but I can tell you 100% there is a card I just looked into trading for in one of the for sale threads that used to be graded and is not listed as previously graded (not saying it needs to be disclosed) just bringing it to peoples attention so they dont overpay

What was the original grade? Please link the thread or tell us what condition the seller is listing it as.

[27tinman]

What was the original grade? Please link the thread or tell us what condition the seller is listing it as.the card was originally slabbed BGS 7.5 (with a 7 subgrade for corners). The new listing for the ungraded card says all cards are nm/mint unless otherwise stated.

[4SeamCollect]

the card was originally slabbed BGS 7.5 (with a 7 subgrade for corners). The new listing for the ungraded card says all cards are nm/mint unless otherwise stated.

I meant the one that Knucklesf05 was referring to.

[rcearley]

This one?

2015 Ameer Abdullah Topps Supreme Rookie Autograph Jumbo Patch RC Auto 1/1 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Ameer-Abdullah-Topps-Supreme-Rookie-Autograph-Jumbo-Patch-RC-Auto-1-1-/262976842192?hash=item3d3aa429d0:g:A2sAAOSwq1JZEljb)

Here is the graded one:

2015 Topps Supreme Ameer Abdullah RPA 1/1!! Graded 7.5. | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Supreme-Ameer-Abdullah-RPA-1-1-Graded-7-5-/292053883180?hash=item43ffc4992c:g:hRUAAOSw4CFYxeSB)

Are those the same? The seller does say it's near mint so he's not really lying or anything.

The description starts out with a mint description and says near mint unless noted, it sounds like it's been noted as mint.

"Very nice card with crisp clean auto, sharp corners and scratch free. You will receive the card you see in scans. All cards are in Nrmt-Mint condition unless otherwise noted."

[rcearley]

the card was originally slabbed BGS 7.5 (with a 7 subgrade for corners). The new listing for the ungraded card says all cards are nm/mint unless otherwise stated.

The description starts out with a mint description and says near mint unless noted, it sounds like it's been noted as mint.

"Very nice card with crisp clean auto, sharp corners and scratch free. You will receive the card you see in scans. All cards are in Nrmt-Mint condition unless otherwise noted."

See above, that's only part of his description.

[RodneyRx]

I love your listing on how to spot a fraud....this same person has hit at least 4 or 5 off of that list. Again just bringing awareness

[Ian]

the card was originally slabbed BGS 7.5 (with a 7 subgrade for corners). The new listing for the ungraded card says all cards are nm/mint unless otherwise stated.

BGS 7 is "Near Mint," is it not?

[4SeamCollect]

BGS 7 is "Near Mint," is it not?

Yeah but when asked, the seller said it had never been graded. Obviously act of deceitfulness.

[27tinman]

Yeah but when asked, the seller said it had never been graded. Obviously act of deceitfulness.That, and even though it's a small difference, BGS7.5 is near mint +, whereas the seller describes it as at least near mint/mint (which would be an 8 on BGS grading scale).

[Vargaman]

I'd say it's fraud if they advertise is as a 9.0 condition when it was a 7.5 but to be honest if it's out of a graded case and I'm buying as fresh from the pack who cares? Not everyone cards about specific grade as long as the card isn't damaged visibly.

Wouldn't it be fraud to send a graded card in to get graded again for hopes of a better score then? [emoji23]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RodneyRx]

God Bless You Brandin Cooks # To 99

Surely Panini could be of assistance and at least tell collectors what that card was. And that was on damn nice cooks card numbered to 99. Best/worst video of all time

[RedMikeC]

Guys - This is hilarious. I stopped reading after page 3 so excuse me if this has been covered:

One key point is - this card you mentioned is a 1/1 - probably should never have been graded anyway and that could have been the logic of the re-seller.

The seller could have thought - This is a 1/1 why is this card graded as the grade has devalued this card. The seller notices an investment opportunity so he purchases this card - remove the case and revalue this card as a raw 1/1 in the seller's opinion. When the seller goes to resell as a 1/1 he is going to be very clear in the description of flaws of the card and take clear pictures so the buyer knows what he is getting and all is fair. Now - if the seller says card is a GEM MINT when it isn't - then I would find a huge problem with that.

Now, I'm not sure if I have the same moral compass as some of you nuns (joke) but I don't see how if this is the seller's reasoning would it be a problem. It is not like the seller is lying and if the seller is clear about the cards condition what does it matter if the card was graded before because as many pointed out - card grading is very subjective.

I am on the side that you do not grade short print serial cards unless you know it's going to grade a 10.

Grading a 1 of 1 is pretty funny to me.

[6celtics33]

Guys - This is hilarious. I stopped reading after page 3 so excuse me if this has been covered:

One key point is - this card you mentioned is a 1/1 - probably should never have been graded anyway and that could have been the logic of the re-seller.

The seller could have thought - This is a 1/1 why is this card graded as the grade has devalued this card. The seller notices an investment opportunity so he purchases this card - remove the case and revalue this card as a raw 1/1 in the seller's opinion. When the seller goes to resell as a 1/1 he is going to be very clear in the description of flaws of the card and take clear pictures so the buyer knows what he is getting and all is fair. Now - if the seller says card is a GEM MINT when it isn't - then I would find a huge problem with that.

Now, I'm not sure if I have the same moral compass as some of you nuns (joke) but I don't see how if this is the seller's reasoning would it be a problem. It is not like the seller is lying and if the seller is clear about the cards condition what does it matter if the card was graded before because as many pointed out - card grading is very subjective.

I am on the side that you do not grade short print serial cards unless you know it's going to grade a 10.

Grading a 1 of 1 is pretty funny to me.

Hmmmm..... sniff sniff

Is that a pbm?

[no10pin]

Guys - This is hilarious. I stopped reading after page 3 so excuse me if this has been covered:

One key point is - this card you mentioned is a 1/1 - probably should never have been graded anyway and that could have been the logic of the re-seller.

The seller could have thought - This is a 1/1 why is this card graded as the grade has devalued this card. The seller notices an investment opportunity so he purchases this card - remove the case and revalue this card as a raw 1/1 in the seller's opinion. When the seller goes to resell as a 1/1 he is going to be very clear in the description of flaws of the card and take clear pictures so the buyer knows what he is getting and all is fair. Now - if the seller says card is a GEM MINT when it isn't - then I would find a huge problem with that.

Now, I'm not sure if I have the same moral compass as some of you nuns (joke) but I don't see how if this is the seller's reasoning would it be a problem. It is not like the seller is lying and if the seller is clear about the cards condition what does it matter if the card was graded before because as many pointed out - card grading is very subjective.

I am on the side that you do not grade short print serial cards unless you know it's going to grade a 10.

Grading a 1 of 1 is pretty funny to me.

Nice 8 month bump out of nowhere. You stopped reading right before the last page?

[RedMikeC]

Yeah - my bad lol. I was searching something pertaining to graded card and it didn't dawn on me this thread might have been old/dead. Whoops.