Panini Lines - Hold or Fold?

[Pigo]

So say you're Panini (it could happen) and there's some monopoly-threatening disaster going on. Maybe UD get a share of the NBA license, or a time-travelling warehouse fire is eating up your stock for the season and you can only save a few shelves. Whatever it is, you've got to trim the number of different sets that you put out every year, let's say to nine.

Off the top of my head at the moment we've got the following either in production or revivable:

Complete
Hoops
Prizm
Select
Donruss
Optic
National Treasures
Studio
Replay
Limited
Gold Standard
Prestige
Absolute
Aficionado
Black Gold College
Contenders
NT Collegiate
Immaculate
Immaculate Collegiate
Revolution
Mosaic
Threads
Totally Certified
Black Gold
Court Kings
Excalibur
Luxe
Noir
Preferred
Spectra
Flawless
Eminence
Gala
Paramount

Wow, I knew there were a lot, but even accounting for those couple in the list that aren't being produced at the moment, that's a helluva lot.

So, which 9 would you personally save for the good of the hobby, and which 9 would you as Panini save if you had to consolidate and focus your identity as a set of basketball brands?

[SirVolan]

1. National Treasures
2. Flawless
3. Prizm
4. Select
5. Immaculate
6. Gold Standard
7. Court Kings
8. Donruss
9. Revolution

Interesting thread OP, well played.

[Pigo]

I reckon yours will be a popular nine, Volan. Is that your hobby preference or what you think Panini should keep from a business perspective?

[tmar214]

I would save:

Donruss. Prizm. Select. Optic. Revolution. Gold standard. Noir. Immaculate and NT


Donruss = best low end
Prizm, select, optic = chrome fun that isn't overly expensive per pack
Revolution: fills a niche
Gold standard: panini is so bad at the 1 pack box mid end (100-120$ per box) but I think this is the best of the bunch.
noir: all prime patches, all on card autos real nice overall product.
Immaculate/NT: most popular of panini high end between all the Rpas and logoman.

[Luni]

I would keep:

Prizm
Donruss
Optic
National Treasures
Gold Standard
Immaculate
Revolution
Court Kings
Flawless

[SirVolan]

I reckon yours will be a popular nine, Volan. Is that your hobby preference or what you think Panini should keep from a business perspective?

Honestly both. Maybe throw eminence back in there for the guys who can drop a lot of coin, or hoops for your casual fan who doesn't break or collect much. But these offer high end with low end, and still have nice boxes to break on a rainy day.

[ReggieEvansPC]

NT
Immaculate
Flawless
Prizm
Hoops
Revolution
Threads
Preferred
Gold Standard

[Pigo]

Luni, Reggie, give us some context for your top 9s. What gets those sets into your truck while the others go up in flames?

I'll post a running total later on so that we can see which sets are getting the most love (or the most hard-headed business cases).

[The Admiral]

I would keep

Prizm
Optic
National Treasures
Immaculate
Revolution
Court Kings
Noir
Preferred
Flawless

[Pigo]

I would keep

Prizm
Optic
National Treasures
Immaculate
Revolution
Court Kings
Noir
Preferred
Flawless

What's the thinking behind these nine? Just personal favourites, or the most distinctive sets... or something else?

[Yaz1966]

NT
Immaculate
Noir
Flawless
Preferred
Select
Optic
Revolution
Prizm

In no particular order

[Andy5]

Low end:
Prizm
Court Kings
Optic or Threads

Mid end:
Revolution
Select
Gold Standard or Preferred

High end:
Noir
Immaculate
National Treasures

Get rid of Flawless and put more effort into NT/Immaculate/Noir.

[Digerati]

My top 9 will probably be different tomorrow and again the next day but if i had to keep 9 i would choose these for now.
I also try to imagine what would make sense business wise for Panini so i won't just pick 9 high-end products.

I would start with the low end, Hoops just has to be there and the inserts were much better than Donruss this year. Revolution has been fun both years and the autos are nice in a cheap product. Court Kings is a personal favorite of mine even though this year wasn't good IMO.

-Hoops
-Revolution
-Court Kings

Then i would include Prizm because...we'll it's Prizm. Select is always popular, fun to break and has some beautiful autos and SP's. Gold Standard is a product i would miss if it went away so i'll keep that one too.

-Prizm
-Select
-Gold Standard

In the High end stuff i would start with Gala because it is one of my favorite products so recent years and i have some beautiful AD autos from both years. NT is a must every year and Flawless wins out over Immaculate IMO.

-Gala
-National Treasures
-Flawless

[MyckKabongo]

High end:
Immaculate - No reason for 3 different high end brands that all have the same design motif of white backgrounds
Preferred -- catch all brand that has a number of the most interesting auto and relic sets
Gala -- really like the design of this brand

Mid
Select
Court Kings

Low
Contenders--not big on the design but there should be a college set
Complete--ultra low end, important for kids and retail
Hoops--flagship low end set
Prizm

[smalltown]

These would be my 9.

Hoops
Prizm
Select
National Treasures
Immaculate
Totally Certified
Court Kings
Preferred
Flawless

[nabogato]

Prizm
Select
Revolution
NT
Flawless
Immaculate
CK
Hoops
Noir

[indyguy]

I'm slow, so I'd only have time to grab four:

Hoops
Prizm
Select
Immaculate

[kukocitb]

Preferred- The Silos and booklets when done correctly are AMAZING
Totally Certified- Always have enjoyed the looks of these. The base and parallels look nice in hand.
Gold Standard- Cards made out of solid gold. I know they are impossible to hit but definitely a cool concept.
Hoops- Old school. One of the original basketball brands.
Select- somewhat old school since it was introduced in baseball in the mid 90s.
Donruss- old school sports card product. Overall have enjoyed the basketball releases so far.
Prizm- Closest thing to Topps Chrome imo so it has got to be there.
National Treasures- Too much white on the cards but it seems to be one of the most sought after in the world of rookies
Absolute- The design of the product is great. Many nice patch cards and even the base catches your eye.

[yiguiri2002]

First of all, nice thread OP. Cool seeing things like this in the forum.

My "9" releases would be:

Low End

Hoops
Court Kings

Mid End

Prizm
Select

High End

National Treasures
Immaculate

College

Contenders

This is based on: design, ROI and market distribution (not matter how much money you spend, there is a product for you). And yes, I think we'll need a low end college product at least.

Now, there's only 7 products there. On top of that, I would do 2 products a year every 2 years. My 2 combos would be:

Revolution-Flawless
Optic-Noir

I think this would make Galactics more desirable, Flawless would look like the premium high end product, Optic would continue to gain a following and Noir's design would also stand out more. Just my two cents.

[byronscott4ever]

So say you're Panini (it could happen) and there's some monopoly-threatening disaster going on. Maybe UD get a share of the NBA license, or a time-travelling warehouse fire is eating up your stock for the season and you can only save a few shelves. Whatever it is, you've got to trim the number of different sets that you put out every year, let's say to nine.

Off the top of my head at the moment we've got the following either in production or revivable:

Complete KEEP
Hoops KEEP
Prizm KEEP
Select
Donruss DUMP
Optic
National Treasures KEEP
Studio
Replay DUMP
Limited
Gold Standard DUMP
Prestige
Absolute
Aficionado
Black Gold College DUMP
Contenders
NT Collegiate DUMP
Immaculate KEEP
Immaculate Collegiate DUMP
Revolution
Mosaic
Threads
Totally Certified
Black Gold
Court Kings KEEP
Excalibur KEEP
Luxe DUMP
Noir DUMP
Preferred KEEP
Spectra DUMP
Flawless KEEP
Eminence
Gala
Paramount

Wow, I knew there were a lot, but even accounting for those couple in the list that aren't being produced at the moment, that's a helluva lot.

So, which 9 would you personally save for the good of the hobby, and which 9 would you as Panini save if you had to consolidate and focus your identity as a set of basketball brands?

See my notes above...I get why Panini does what they do (any company would do the same) but I try to keep a range of prices in my "keeps" and get rid of the duplicated college stuff and such. I think what Panini should do (and I've said this before) is keep a core group that comes out every year and then have just a few that are done every other year or whatever. Don't do a product and not do it again for five years or more and drop it out of the sky again with the exception of the HOF set which makes sense to space it out.

[jellyboy]

High end
NT
Immaculate
Flawless

Mid end
Preferred
Noir
Spectra

Low end
Prizm
Optic
Revolution

[Hallco]

I think it's time for some re-boots and some new ideas. Here are my thoughts.


Current releases:

1-Hoops-It's the 1st release for a reason and it's affordable. No brainer it stays!
2-Prizm-It's obvious that this is super popular. The sky is the limit with colors!
3-Select-Following the same philosophy as Prizm...popular and not high priced!
4-Court Kings- I am hit or miss with these, but collectors love them!
5-NT-I don't see how you can't have them since they are so in demand!
6-Immaculate- Mostly agree with what has already been said about it!

Reboot:

7-Marquee- This was such a cool set! Why only one year? :confused:

New ideas: If Panini does either one I expect royalties! :cool:

8-Panini "Neon"-Somewhat similarly based on the Titanium concept. High end release where every single card is numbered to only 10 and use neon coloring that really pops in hand. The acetates alone would be phenomenal!

9-Panini "My Hero"- All dual autograph release of a current NBA player and the favorite living retired NBA "Hero" who inspired them to play standing side by side. All on card! Obviously this would be super high end and geared more toward player collectors than set builders!

[GeechQuest]

Here's how I'd do it (including release dates):


Low-End:

-Hoops (1st week of November)
-Donruss (Thanksgiving)

Chrome Type:

-Prizm (Christmas)
-Optic (Mid-March, after trade deadline)
-Select (Before All-Star Break, 2nd week of February)

Rotation:

-Revolution/Totally Certified/Absolute/Limited (Thanksgiving)

High-End:

-National Treasures (1st week of June)
-Immaculate (1st week of April)
-Noir (1st week of May)


Explanation:


Low-End:

My thinking is Hoops is the original low-end set and I'd hate to see it go. I'd like to see the low-end sets (Hoops and Donruss) have ALL opening day players included. So that would be a 449 card checklist. Keep the HOF content out and let the low-end really encompass the current NBA season.

Hoops could come out the opening week of the season with Donruss a month or so later. This would allow an entire month of Hoops set building, parallel chasing. Then we'd get Donruss which would also be a 449 player checklist, but we can add coaches and refs to get to a total set of roughly 500.

Rotation:

The "Rotation" slot would go to products that are similar (Absolute, Limited, Totally Certified), as well as an extremely niche Revolution. My thought is that these products have a place and a following, but aren't the most sought after. If Absolute came out every 4 years, it would feel somewhat fresh. This is also the product you can dump the Next Day Autographs in to keep up with that set and have a feel of continuity each year.

Revolution shouldn't be an every year product either, as the Galactics (HUGE chase cards) will become more and more watered down as time goes on. Panini would have 4 years to tweak the design and keep them going as chase cards.

Chrome Type:

Prizm comes out first. It's a standalone product and if it comes out before X-mas it becomes a big chase for the RCs during the holidays. Prizm is what Prizm is...it's not a set product and doesn't need to be configured as such. It's all about chasing rainbows but with the rise in Silvers it's more than enough to carry the brand for the future.

Select comes out before the All-Star Break and gives more rainbows plus On-Card Auto's of the Rookies on chrome cards. Select also has memorabilia, and they need to bring back the RPAs (preferably on-card this time).

Optic Comes out a few weeks later, after the trade deadline. The reason for this is that Optic can become an "update" style product, in all chrome technology. Have the entire Donruss set, but add SSP base with players on their new teams. This past season (16/17) there were 44 players traded. It would be a very cool thing to have the cards of the players traded about a month after the deadline passed, and perhaps give Optic a little more value.

High-End:

Immaculate comes first and during the last month of the NBA season. This gives us a High-End Product with an RPA chase during the actual season. The big problem with the current High-End releases is that they don't come out until most of the league is done playing. We need the expensive products to come out last, so that they don't water down the lower-end products throughout the year, but AT LEAST one needs to be released while all teams are playing. Hopefully this can bump or keep Immaculate RPAs higher for a little longer.

Noir Comes out the following month. Since Noir is completely different than Immaculate, there's no reason why it should cut into Immaculate's market share too much, and it also provides a nice buffer between the 2 high-end brands.

During the Finals you release National Treasures. Panini's biggest product released when all eyes are on the NBA. Immaculate is 2 months gone, so it gives collectors a bit of time to focus on NT RPA's throughout the summer. It also marks the end of the season.




Panini then uses their "Instant" platform to release cards over the summer if they choose. We do not need cards released out of season, but Panini can still be releasing something and basketball fans can either go back in the catalog if they choose to bust or collect the "Instant" cards.

Also, I didn't include any Mid-End product because honestly the market seems to have spoken and if we're only doing 9 products there doesn't to be a need for one. I love Gold Standard, but Chrome cards are King. It would be nice if Panini could take the energy of designing a Mid-End Product (On-Card Autos, Nicer Patches, etc....) and incorporate them in some lower-tier brands. If the "Mid-End" became that "Rotation" product I mentioned, basically swapping sticker autos for on-card, it would only bolster those brands.



Sorry for the long read, but I'm pretty slow at work today.

[Jin]

1) Replay
2) Black Gold College
3) Complete
4) Studio
5) Prestige retail
6) Kobe Anthology Packs
7) Father's Day Promo Packs
8) Eminence
9) Replay a second time






Reason: laugh at the ensuing riots while my PC increases 100x in value

[yiguiri2002]

1) Replay
2) Black Gold College
3) Complete
4) Studio
5) Prestige retail
6) Kobe Anthology Packs
7) Father's Day Promo Packs
8) Eminence
9) Replay a second time






Reason: laugh at the ensuing riots while my PC increases 100x in value

Don't be shocked if Studio and Eminence make a few lists here and there.

[WaiverWire]

Prizm (my favorite)
NT
Immaculate
Flawless
Revolution
Gala
Optic

[the27guy]

1. Complete
2. Hoops
3. Prizm
4. Gold Standard
5. Immaculate or NT. Some combination between the two
6. Flawless
7. Eminence

I can't get past 7,

[NeilCO]

I would keep

Prizm
Optic
National Treasures
Immaculate
Revolution
Court Kings
Noir
Preferred
Flawless

I think this is my 9 exactly. Just personal preference. I think these are the nicest products Panini produces, and covers all price levels.

[bjho852]

1. Flawless
2. Immaculate or National Treasures (maybe combination of two)
3. Court Kings
4. Revolution
5. Noir
6. Preferred
7. Select
8. Hoops

......and (revive) 9. Classics

[Tarheelsfan2012]

1. NT
2. Immaculate
3. Flawless
4. Prizm
5. Select
6. Hoops
7. Gold Standard
8. Optic
9. Preferred

[irfuji]

1. Hoops - have to have that super low end to keep the kiddos involved
2. Prizm - no brainer
3. Immaculate- I'm just really partial to this set
4. Flawless- I know lots of people hate it, but I like many of the designs.
5. Court kings- Another lower end set that really has differentiated itself.
6. National treasures- had some concerns adding this, but the RPA sets are just so desirable.

Other ones I would do.

Combine select and gold standard. Love portions of both of these, and if you take the best of both this would probably be my favorite set.

Combine Optic and Donruss. Same reasoning as above.

Combine revolution with pref. Add in another mid level set. Love pref's silhouettes but the checklist is so insanely watered down its just throwing money in the drain.

[SirVolan]

I'm surprised people are considering prizm to be low end. Prices on these boxes have gotten a little ridiculous. Seems less is being busted and I can't build on my Stanley Johnson hoard.

[ReggieEvansPC]

1. Complete
2. Hoops
3. Prizm
4. Gold Standard
5. Immaculate or NT. Some combination between the two
6. Flawless
7. Eminence

I can't get past 7,

I find it surprising you didn't mention Gala...

[d2t]

Low:
Hoops
Revolution

Mid:
Optic
Prizm
Select
Gold standard

High:
Eminence
National treasures
Immaculate

I definitely wouldn't renew Spectra, Aficionado.

Totally certified maybe some years

[Saraste]

Hoops
Revolution
Prizm
Court Kings
Flawless
National Treasures
Immaculate
Gold Standard

That is eight sets. That is because I include a new one here, sort of. It would still be named Optic, but it would be a partial parallel of Hoops instead of Donruss. This is similar to how Topps and Topps Chrome are in baseball. I think most would agree that Hoops is the basketball equivalent of Topps flagship. If this is the case, why not have Optic mirror the flagship set?

Personally, I think we don't need all three of Flawless, National Treasures, and Immaculate, but the popularity of them says otherwise. I have Gold Standard in place of Select or Certified because sets like Select and Certified have a bunch of color, similar to Optic and Prizm. Do we need three or four of those out of nine sets? I would rather have some diversity, hence a set like Gold Standard.

[Chain]

I just want all on card autos.

Hoops (Ok, I'll forgive stickers autos on these; just want cheap cool-concept inserts and nicely designed case hits and SP cards such as Championship Portraits, and tribute cards to milestones of the past season)
Optic (Put on-card autos on these and ill take it as a replacement for both Donruss and Prizm)
Revolution
Preferred
Grand Reserve (Has not yet been release but I already like it more than the other options)
Gala
Immaculate
National Treasures
Flawless

Also, bring back 'Hall of Fame' every 5 to 10 years (I want more Hall of Fame Monikers inscription cards).

And is anyone tallying the votes?

[SKOL28VIKINGS]

Immaculate
NT
Noir
Preferred
Select
Flawless
Prizm
Revolution
Spectra

[Luni]

I would keep:

Prizm
Donruss
Optic
National Treasures
Gold Standard
Immaculate
Revolution
Court Kings
Flawless

To expand on my picks...

I think any good lineup has to have a combination of low end, middle and high end products.

With this breakdown you have Donruss, Revolution and Court Kings as low end and all different styles. Donruss is a traditional low-end style set with lots of inserts, parallels, but sticker autos and the like. Revolution is the low end set with really rare, but high value hits. I personally love this set and would be in my top 3 to be honest. Lastly, Court Kings is a very stylistic set that is only 1 pack per box. It has nice on card autos of rookies, but not much else which is okay in my book for people who want to chase that.

For mid-tier products you'd have Prizm, Optic and Gold Standard. Prizm and Optic are very similar so I could see dropping one of them to be honest, but Prizm has a foothold now as one of Panini's premier products and I like that Optic is a chrome version of Donruss. I think there is room for 2 chrome products in most collector's worlds so I'm okay with that. Lastly, Gold Standard has always seemed to me to be a good middle of the road 1 pack per box for the price. Certainly something like Gala is generally better when it drops in price by half, but at MSRP, I like Gold Standard.

Lastly, the high end products that I think Panini does best are NT, Immaculate and Flawless. I think NT has solidified itself as the set of choice for rookie RPAs, while Immaculate has some absolutely gorgeous acetate and multi-auto cards. Flawless has proven itself to me as the most premium set that has remained fairly consistent since it has launched. Base rookies, logomans and super premium patch autos of all stars is what makes it great. It also isn't priced completely insane like Eminence.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. A lot of the choice came down to personal preference opening the cards too. The ones I listed seem to have a good feel to them and an identity. A lot of the other sets blend together for me.

[Oldschool42]

The amount of NBA releases is stupid. Here's my picks:

Flawless, Immaculate, NT for those with deep pockets, Prizm, Optic, Revolution, Donruss, Hoops for everyone else. Prizm released for Xmas (Thanks Santa!) and Optic released after the All Star game. Hoops and Donruss get a jump on things but spaced out 5-6 weeks. Revolution would fill in nicely between Prizm and Optic. This would make parallel chasing fun and breakers wouldn't be on to the next hot thing 2 weeks after something gets released.

[Duvalier]

Prizm
Select
National Treasures
Flawless
Immaculate
Revolution
Court Kings
Noir
Hoops

[Pigo]

Thanks for some really interesting takes on this, guys. I love the idea of combining sets and ordering priorities by 'tier' in particular.

Overall then, this is what we're getting if this forum were the collective split personalities of Panini (percentages of the vote in brackets):

1. National Treasures - 93%
2. Prizm - 93%
3. Immaculate - 93%
4. Flawless - 73%
5. Revolution - 70%
6. Hoops - 67%
7. Select - 60%
8. Court Kings - 53%
9. Optic/Preferred - 50%

A strong showing from Optic there, just making it in.

[yiguiri2002]

I'm actually shocked that Preferred beat Donruss, Noir and Gold Standard and got as many votes as Optic. I always felt that the only good thing about it was the Silos and the Finals/Stat Line booklets (more about the concept 'cause I hate booklets).