1981 Topps Joe Montana RC & The Brady Effect

[roberth404]

Has anyone else noticed a decline in the value of the PSA 9 1981 Topps Joe Montana RC?

I checked back on some sales history and noted that as recently as July 2016 the PSA 9 Montana was consistently (as in, 1-2 times per week as the card is fairly plentiful) selling in the $1,000 range. Recent sales on eBay show consistent sales of the PSA 9 Montana in the $500-$600 range. PSA 10s can now be had for a measly $10K, and these were once selling regularly for $15K.

Looking at trends in sales history it's seems clear to me that the decline in value is reactive to and inversely related to Brady's continued success and accomplishments. Or is something else at play here?

What does this mean for vintage in general? The data appears to contradict the general wisdom that vintage is the safest investment in the hobby -- does that still hold true? What happens to Brady cards when Nick Foles wins the next 7 Super Bowls? What are cards -- what is life?

Very interested to hear everyone's input and/or related observations!!

[TheFrenzy]

I could honestly see Montana RC values start to slip a bit given how he has chosen to live a fairly private life over the past two decade compared to other SB-heavy QBs like Bradshaw, Staubach, Aikman, and even Namath.

Granted, I think Montana is twice the QB Brady has ever been, but rings are rings.

[titletowncards]

I'm one of those who bought a Montana PSA 9 for around $800 and am surprised as well. I think Brady does have something to do with the prices dropping. I didn't buy it for investment reasons but still. I think over time it will make it's way back up some. But most people think Brady has surpassed Montana as the GOAT. Maybe there's more high grade Montana's then we thought.

[majestik101]

Sadly, kids today haven't an idea who Joe Montana is (they don't follow him on twitter or facebook), so the longer time goes on, and the more super bowl rings that Tom Brady adds to his mantle, that could also be a problem moving forward. Part of the reason why I am not so quick to go after vintage.

Pretty soon, these older players will be forgotten except by us old fogeys.

[StevenTormollan]

There are millions of 1981 Topps Montana rookies out there.

You can have one for $20-$40 if it doesn't have to be mint.

A PSA 9 MINT copy is fantastic. Its a pretty tough card to find in graded mint condition.

A PSA 8 goes for what, maybe $100+? So a 10x multiplier for a card with basically the same eye appeal and presentation is a bit much.

Plus its such a common card.

Brady's top rookies are numbered #/350, #/1000, #/2000 etc. And the parallels are #/25, #/50, etc - they're exclusive. At least his top rookies.

Montana rookies are not exclusive, its simply having one in MINT condition that is.

With all of this said, i think $500 for a PSA 9 Montana RC is a nice long(er) term investment. No way it drops down any further than that because of how tough it is, and certainly long term, being one of the best ever, this card will grow.

[Gustomania]

I def agree on the effect, and at current prices love picking up more PSA 9s. I think in general though many vintage are seeing a decrease from 2016 when they were high, I think it's mostly due to market correction and maybe some Brady as well.

However, no matter what you do it's Iconic just like Unitas, Brown, Namath, etc.......and when it's iconic it will never be forgotten. There's something cool about Iconic cards especially when there's only 1 to own and not 1000 different rookie cards.

[altaeria]

You can also directly blame Pete Carroll and Kyle Shanahan for this. And I am only half joking.

[jasonm2121]

Mass produced and old vets are buying Brady.

[ThoseBackPages]

TOM

BRADY

There's your answer. ive learned on blowout that he is the greatest NFL player of all time, now challenging for the greatest human being of all time.

i have no idea why people would buy any NFL cards BUT Tom Brady.

[oplum29]

yep, I mentioned this a couple of weeks back too in another thread.

The Montana 1981 PSA 10's were in the $16K range, and now, you can get them for under $10K, which is crazy.

that's how much of an effect Brady has had in what I would only presume, distancing himself from Montana as the GOAT.

Until 2014, I had them 1A and 1B, but it's probably more 1- Brady, 2- Montana.

What I've never understood overall is how the Montana rookie never got the kind of love other QB cards have.

When I was a kid, around 94-95, it peaked in the $225 range and has never gone up, only the PSA 9 and 10 versions.

[jasonm2121]

The current PSA pop report lists 16,450 graded copies and BGS lists 8,407. That is a lot of copies. That has to be part of it.

[RogerGodahell]

One of my greatest thrills collecting cards was pulling a Montana rookie out of a 35 year old unopened pack last year. Pretty off centered but it felt so good.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4718/26058418568_94c704d7bb_o.jpg

[DotVaDa]

What I think is nuts is that some of these unproven players are bringing the money they are bringing. The Jimmy G NT RPA 10/10 just sold for over 7k. If you really think about it all Brady cards are still a value. The real question is will Brady cards dip once he retires like What we are seeing with the Montana RC? I don’t see Brady staying in the spotlight either.


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[Archangel1775]

The current PSA pop report lists 16,450 graded copies and BGS lists 8,407. That is a lot of copies. That has to be part of it.

I'm not so sure the impact is in the total numbers.With Joe Cool,you have 1 rookie card to choose from. With Brady, his Bowman and Bowman Chrome have over 3500 PSA graded. Tally up the different choices in 2000 and it's probably over 16k.

I do believe what you are seeing is market correction. The Montana PSA 9 went from $400 to $1k in a short time along with other key rookies.

[Gustomania]

Yep agree with this, how many Brady PSA cards are there, that's the comparison. I can STILL buy a paramount or whatever PSA 10 Brady for a small amount.

Most Brady cards will fall over time, many people will lose a interest and you have the true Brady/Patriot fans plus some registry, or various set collectors. All the high end will be in those hands and even the average collector will care less about a contenders or whatever.

Fact is he has how many rookies to choose from? That's the supply. So right now u have the demand of no ceiling and flipping and turning a profit. As Brady retires this will change, believe me the hobby isn't you collect Brady or nothing or else we should all quit. Just take the goggles off....

I'm not so sure the impact is in the total numbers.With Joe Cool,you have 1 rookie card to choose from. With Brady, his Bowman and Bowman Chrome have over 3500 PSA graded. Tally up the different choices in 2000 and it's probably over 16k.

I do believe what you are seeing is market correction. The Montana PSA 9 went from $400 to $1k in a short time along with other key rookies.

[DotVaDa]

The current PSA pop report lists 16,450 graded copies and BGS lists 8,407. That is a lot of copies. That has to be part of it.



Jason, do you know the print run of Brady’s Rookie Ticket or Chromes? Would be an interesting comparison. I am making the assumption that Brady RT and Chromes = Montana Topps


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[Gustomania]

There's only so much money people can spend so the compare is ALL Brady rookies to any vintage where they have 1 card.

Then I suppose you can break down Brady high value and compare it to say a Montana PSA 10, 9,8, e.g. Or a Jordan 10, 9, 8, etc

In the grand scheme numbering matters but take a step back and compare the scope of how many cards, it 50 years if Brady has 30000 psa rookies vs Montana 25000 what is really more rare. Or compare Jim Brown and his 2500 PSA graded (which is more truly a closer real count since most won't touch ungraded) and thats the difference in how rare it is.

Fact is Brady cards are not rare at all, how on earth can they NOT FALL when what maybe in the end you have 100, 200 , or 300 life long collectors. Someone posted that even with Mantle you maybe have 75-100 true collectors looking for high end......the rest just grab low end graded copies

Just my 2 cents, not looking to argue, just don't see it coming from an economics background in terms of supply and demand.




Jason, do you know the print run of Brady’s Rookie Ticket or Chromes? Would be an interesting comparison. I am making the assumption that Brady RT and Chromes = Montana Topps


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[DotVaDa]

There's only so much money people can spend so the compare is ALL Brady rookies to any vintage where they have 1 card.



Then I suppose you can break down Brady high value and compare it to say a Montana PSA 10, 9,8, e.g. Or a Jordan 10, 9, 8, etc



In the grand scheme numbering matters but take a step back and compare the scope of how many cards, it 50 years if Brady has 30000 psa rookies vs Montana 25000 what is really more rare. Or compare Jim Brown and his 2500 PSA graded (which is more truly a closer real count since most won't touch ungraded) and thats the difference in how rare it is.



Fact is Brady cards are not rare at all, how on earth can they NOT FALL when what maybe in the end you have 100, 200 , or 300 life long collectors. Someone posted that even with Mantle you maybe have 75-100 true collectors looking for high end......the rest just grab low end graded copies



Just my 2 cents, not looking to argue, just don't see it coming from an economics background in terms of supply and demand.



Really great points you bring up. When I look at the current sale prices of all of Brady’s cards I often wonder where is the ceiling and when will supply meet demand and level out. Certainly this madness can’t be sustainable as with every price jump more and more people are priced out of the market and the market of buyers will shrink IMO.

What is really mind boggling to me is the money some of the “hot, up and coming, potential super stars” bring compared to these 2 legends.


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[jasonm2121]

I'm not so sure the impact is in the total numbers.With Joe Cool,you have 1 rookie card to choose from. With Brady, his Bowman and Bowman Chrome have over 3500 PSA graded. Tally up the different choices in 2000 and it's probably over 16k.

I do believe what you are seeing is market correction. The Montana PSA 9 went from $400 to $1k in a short time along with other key rookies.

Thanks for the feedback. I am certainly not privy to the flucuation in prices on Montana, did not know they went up very quickly for example. It is probably like the Brady SPA, which was higher around 20K then went back to 14-16 recently. Everything can correct over time for sure.

Yep agree with this, how many Brady PSA cards are there, that's the comparison. I can STILL buy a paramount or whatever PSA 10 Brady for a small amount.

Most Brady cards will fall over time, many people will lose a interest and you have the true Brady/Patriot fans plus some registry, or various set collectors. All the high end will be in those hands and even the average collector will care less about a contenders or whatever.

Fact is he has how many rookies to choose from? That's the supply. So right now u have the demand of no ceiling and flipping and turning a profit. As Brady retires this will change, believe me the hobby isn't you collect Brady or nothing or else we should all quit. Just take the goggles off....

This is true, but I think for modern cards like Brady, you just look at the few main ones, Contenders, SP, SPx and the others in Patriots Uniform that are serial numbered (R and S, Elite, Momentum, Showcase)

Jason, do you know the print run of Brady’s Rookie Ticket or Chromes? Would be an interesting comparison. I am making the assumption that Brady RT and Chromes = Montana Topps


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PSA Population (total)
Bowman Chrome - 2,087 (856 GEM, 96 Refractors with 7 GEM)

PSA Contenders - 142 Total (15* GEM)

PSA SPA - 515 Graded (99 GEM) /1250

PSA SPX - 323 Graded (126 GEM) /1350

Really great points you bring up. When I look at the current sale prices of all of Brady’s cards I often wonder where is the ceiling and when will supply meet demand and level out. Certainly this madness can’t be sustainable as with every price jump more and more people are priced out of the market and the market of buyers will shrink IMO.

What is really mind boggling to me is the money some of the “hot, up and coming, potential super stars” bring compared to these 2 legends.


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I think when we look at these types of comparisons, you have to only talk about the premium, and best RCs for Brady. Forget about the other 40 or whatever it is of the others. The best Brady RCs are always going to have a good price tag in top condition. The other ones will be just like low grade Montana RCs, people who do not have the budget will get the 7 or 8 and for Brady they may just grab a Pacific or regular Upper Deck. Remember, the Chrome does have a high population, but it is one of the most collected brands and is still fairly low when you look at older cards, in both price and quantity available, so it may be the only 1 a standard collector will grab, which will always make it valuable. Will it ever be 16 K, I would think most likely not, but the high end Brady RCs will. The low population of Gem Mint Brady RCs is amazing to me, 18 years later, so how many more can there be?

[Gustomania]

I don't get the up and coming and prices. Take Garoppolo, given his late start, age, etc and assume he is a top 5 an year in and year out statistically he won't compare to guys close to his era unless he ripped of like 4-5 SB's. Granted I hope he does as a Niner fan but Guys like Montana, Unitas will always be iconic and no one can change it......so if you were not in early why buy now. Like someone said if he happens to be similar to a Brady his cards didn't explode until 2015....the risk/reward in buying now makes zero sense in my mind. It's kinda like Stafford, I really like him and if he ripped off a SB or two prices would jump but there's zero reason for me to buy if I'm not a huge fan and meets my PC until he's won a SB.

I think Brady stock has sort of set the tone for modern collecting. I get buy new rookies like Watson and wentz, but I also think year 3 is more telling and don't go crazy year 1.

That's just me, I don't undertand buying a Garoppolo for 7k when I can get a OPC Gretzky 8 or whatever........that makes way more sense.

Keep in mind, I don't have the patience to watch prices and flip for 10 or 20 dollars, i just buy exactly what I think I want to keep forever.....or else it's too crazy for me.

[Gustomania]

I agree with much of what your saying on the high end stuff.....I mean we are talking about a great QB here so that makes sense, but not on the 18 years being long.....there tons of Brady's out there still sealed and tons not graded.

Thanks for the feedback. I am certainly not privy to the flucuation in prices on Montana, did not know they went up very quickly for example. It is probably like the Brady SPA, which was higher around 20K then went back to 14-16 recently. Everything can correct over time for sure.



This is true, but I think for modern cards like Brady, you just look at the few main ones, Contenders, SP, SPx and the others in Patriots Uniform that are serial numbered (R and S, Elite, Momentum, Showcase)



PSA Population (total)
Bowman Chrome - 2,087 (856 GEM, 96 Refractors with 7 GEM)

PSA Contenders - 142 Total (15* GEM)

PSA SPA - 515 Graded (99 GEM) /1250

PSA SPX - 323 Graded (126 GEM) /1350



I think when we look at these types of comparisons, you have to only talk about the premium, and best RCs for Brady. Forget about the other 40 or whatever it is of the others. The best Brady RCs are always going to have a good price tag in top condition. The other ones will be just like low grade Montana RCs, people who do not have the budget will get the 7 or 8 and for Brady they may just grab a Pacific or regular Upper Deck. Remember, the Chrome does have a high population, but it is one of the most collected brands and is still fairly low when you look at older cards, in both price and quantity available, so it may be the only 1 a standard collector will grab, which will always make it valuable. Will it ever be 16 K, I would think most likely not, but the high end Brady RCs will. The low population of Gem Mint Brady RCs is amazing to me, 18 years later, so how many more can there be?

[jasonm2121]

I agree with much of what your saying on the high end stuff.....I mean we are talking about a great QB here so that makes sense, but not on the 18 years being long.....there tons of Brady's out there still sealed and tons not graded.

Very possible, but to make a giant difference is not likely, especially on the Contenders, they are not usually mint out of the pack. That helps this card a great deal, most show some white on the corners and or edge. Wish I grabbed just that card every time.

[Gustomania]

It's a great time in the hobby for Brady collectors, curious if your focus is only on TB? I mean, you and I have gone back and forth a few times and I can't say I don't have a few Brady's hidden away, but with prices being sooo high it's gotta be tough?

Then again with your PC you probably just stare at it all day :)

If TB is in fact having any impact on Montana then I'll quietly say "thank you I'll take another PSA 9"

However vintage across the board has dropped since last year and seems a great time to buy football.

Even for me when I look at anything 1998 - present it's ONLY Brady and I'm not even a fan of him (even though I met him once because myformer Boss was friends with TB mom or aunt and they stopped by where I work).

Very possible, but to make a giant difference is not likely, especially on the Contenders, they are not usually mint out of the pack. That helps this card a great deal, most show some white on the corners and or edge. Wish I grabbed just that card every time.

[tky2dex]

Really great points you bring up. When I look at the current sale prices of all of Brady’s cards I often wonder where is the ceiling and when will supply meet demand and level out. Certainly this madness can’t be sustainable as with every price jump more and more people are priced out of the market and the market of buyers will shrink IMO.

What is really mind boggling to me is the money some of the “hot, up and coming, potential super stars” bring compared to these 2 legends.


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Yeah I really can’t see dishing out $500.00 on a Watson Contenders when guy didn’t finish a season has an ACL tear, I understand he might have been ROY, but he really hasn’t proven anything yet to be at $500.00. This IMP. This goes along with all the other 2017 QB’s. Even Trubisky is over $200.00. I know it’s new product, rookie class etc...

[RW3FAN]

Sadly, kids today haven't an idea who Joe Montana is (they don't follow him on twitter or facebook), so the longer time goes on, and the more super bowl rings that Tom Brady adds to his mantle, that could also be a problem moving forward. Part of the reason why I am not so quick to go after vintage.

Pretty soon, these older players will be forgotten except by us old fogeys.

Then why do Mickey Mantle cards go up every year?

[hofcollector2]

Montana is now considered a poor mans Brady, he is bound to slip in price.

[DotVaDa]

Very possible, but to make a giant difference is not likely, especially on the Contenders, they are not usually mint out of the pack. That helps this card a great deal, most show some white on the corners and or edge. Wish I grabbed just that card every time.



Brady being a late round pick do you think the number of RT cards was very limited. I know the RT are not numbered but I have to believe the total # of these cards has to be low as I can’t see him signing many cards as he wasn’t in demand as the other QB’s in the draft.

The real money card is the Championship Ticket x/100. That card in gem mint condition has to be like a hefty 401k plan in value lol


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[Archangel1775]

Montana is now considered a poor mans Brady, he is bound to slip in price.

Lol, $10-15k PSA 10 isn't for a poor man. It was a different era in the hobby. I'm sure if there was a SPA or Contenders Auto in 1981,they'd be at $30k plus

[majestik101]

I'm sure if there was a SPA or Contenders Auto in 1981,they'd be at $30k plus



https://media.giphy.com/media/ap6wcjRyi8HoA/giphy.gif

[StevenTormollan]

While still extremely iconic... i mean, how exciting is a Montana rookie though?

I get it, i like the card, its awesome... but... its just this one ugly overproduced card that can be had for $40 raw.

Brady has more exciting, better looking cards, autos, parallels, its just a heck of a lot more fun to buy/sell/collect Brady rookies.

Sorry.

But again, i will say i think $500 for a PSA 9 is fairly low and should provide a good return on investment long term. While there will be more PSA 9's coming out in the future, most of them that are 9's... have probably already been graded.

[StevenTormollan]

Also Brady has TOTALLY surpassed Montana and anyone else for best NFL QB ever and i would say easily the best NFL player ever. Win or lose on Sunday.

If he wins again, wow. I mean, its no contest.

If he wins 2 or 3 more rings? Holy cow.

Raw Bowman rookies will be $1k.

[Gustomania]

I realize there's a ton of Brady fans but this is very short sighted considering the history of football.

People are forgetting all the greats like Baugh, Graham, Unitas, Brown, Starr, Payton, LT, Rice.........idk, I'm no longer certain Football has a GOAT at all.

I understand Pats fans are in the moment, but when I step back and look at Football, I see it differently than Hockey or Baseball because the gam has changed soooo much.

Also Brady has TOTALLY surpassed Montana and anyone else for best NFL QB ever and i would say easily the best NFL player ever. Win or lose on Sunday.

If he wins again, wow. I mean, its no contest.

If he wins 2 or 3 more rings? Holy cow.

Raw Bowman rookies will be $1k.

[StevenTormollan]

I realize there's a ton of Brady fans but this is very short sighted considering the history of football.



People are forgetting all the greats like Baugh, Graham, Unitas, Brown, Starr, Payton, LT, Rice.........idk, I'm no longer certain Football has a GOAT at all.



I understand Pats fans are in the moment, but when I step back and look at Football, I see it differently than Hockey or Baseball because the gam has changed soooo much.



LT? Lawrence Taylor. Who's a child molester, habitual drug addict, is more of a GOAT than Tom Brady? Baugh was awesome. Unitas, iconic. Brown was an awesome singular player for a short number of years. Bart Starr better than Tom Brady? That's utterly impossible. I don't know if you look at stats or are just romanticizing your older favorite players but you sound silly, no offense.


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[Gustomania]

LT is widely considered one of the greatest defensive players ever.....so yeah, when your talking 50% of football is defense I think when u speak in terms of greats you include him

Again, take off blinders, take a step back and look at football wholistically, there are guys like LT that changed the game, so they are iconic and great.

So, we are getter by off track, card prices and GOAT are 2 different things.


LT? Lawrence Taylor. Who's a child molester, habitual drug addict, is more of a GOAT than Tom Brady? Baugh was awesome. Unitas, iconic, Brown was an awesome singular player. Bart Sitarr better than Tom Brady? I don't know if you look at stats or are just romanticizing older players but you sound silly, no offense.


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[StevenTormollan]

LT is widely considered one of the greatest defensive players ever.....so yeah, when your talking 50% of football is defense I think when u speak in terms of greats you include him

Again, take off blinders, take a step back and look at football wholistically, there are guys like LT that changed the game, so they are iconic and great.

So, we are getter by off track, card prices and GOAT are 2 different things.


LT was an amazing defensive player, changed the game, sure.

Is he comparable to Tom Brady? No. Nowhere close.

Lots of great players in NFL history, none have the resume Tom has.

Has nothing to do with football cards, their value or popularity.

First off you can't really compare defensive and offensive players. In terms of greatness, even so, Brady totally overshadows Lawrence Taylor.

When talking about offensive players, no one has had his longevity, number of Super Bowl rings, Super Bowl appearances, playoff wins, passing stats, etc. when taken into account in total.

You may LIKE Bart Starr or Unitas or Montana better, but that doesn't mean they're better than Brady.

[Gustomania]

Lol, I disagree 1000%

But, discussing with you is pointless.

LT was an amazing defensive player, changed the game, sure.

Is he comparable to Tom Brady? No. Nowhere close.

Lots of great players in NFL history, none have the resume Tom has.

Has nothing to do with football cards, their value or popularity.

First off you can't really compare defensive and offensive players. In terms of greatness, even so, Brady totally overshadows Lawrence Taylor.

When talking about offensive players, no one has had his longevity, number of Super Bowl rings, Super Bowl appearances, playoff wins, passing stats, etc. when taken into account in total.

You may LIKE Bart Starr or Unitas or Montana better, but that doesn't mean they're better than Brady.

[deemsterz33]

LT was an amazing defensive player, changed the game, sure.

Is he comparable to Tom Brady? No. Nowhere close.

Lots of great players in NFL history, none have the resume Tom has.

Has nothing to do with football cards, their value or popularity.

First off you can't really compare defensive and offensive players. In terms of greatness, even so, Brady totally overshadows Lawrence Taylor.

When talking about offensive players, no one has had his longevity, number of Super Bowl rings, Super Bowl appearances, playoff wins, passing stats, etc. when taken into account in total.

You may LIKE Bart Starr or Unitas or Montana better, but that doesn't mean they're better than Brady.

But Bart Starr threw 16 TDs in a season twice in his career. Those two years happen to mark the most TDs he ever threw for in a season. Sooooooo, ummmmm, take that ;)

[StevenTormollan]

Lol, I disagree 1000%

But, discussing with you is pointless.

I feel the exact same way about discussing this with you.

Before i leave, just let me give you some advice, don't mortgage the house to invest it all in Lawrence Taylor collectibles.

Even though he was the greatest NFL player and human being ever to walk this Earth. Definitively more meaningful to the NFL than Tom Brady ever could be, right?

[Gustomania]

That's not what I'm saying, I'm just saying there are equally talented players across multiple decades than just one Tom Brady. To dismiss this is is short sighted.....you don't think guys like Rice and Jim Brown don't compare??? I never said Starr and LT were better, but to dismiss them is foolish.

What about Otto Graham, I mean 7 championships and 10 appearances.....different time but to dismiss this is silly.

Tom Brady is awesome no doubt, but football didn't start in 2000 believe me.


I feel the exact same way about discussing this with you.

Before i leave, just let me give you some advice, don't mortgage the house to invest it all in Lawrence Taylor collectibles.

Even though he was the greatest NFL player and human being ever to walk this Earth. Definitively more meaningful to the NFL than Tom Brady ever could be, right?

[StevenTormollan]

That's not what I'm saying, I'm just saying there are equally talented players across multiple decades than just one Tom Brady. To dismiss this is is short sighted.....you don't think guys like Rice and Jim Brown don't compare??? I never said Starr and LT were better, but to dismiss them is foolish.

What about Otto Graham, I mean 7 championships and 10 appearances.....different time but to dismiss this is silly.

Tom Brady is awesome no doubt, but football didn't start in 2000 believe me.

The whole conversation started when you chimed in/ refuted my claim that Tom Brady is the best qb ever in the NFL and probably the best overall NFL player of all time.

I didn't say there weren't a multitude of amazing, incredible players in NFL history. Of course there are. I'm not dismissing any of these incredible players you named, i am saying that none of them have the greatness that Tom Brady has as far as being the overall #1 best NFL player ever.

Was Rice, Montana, Unitas, Starr, LT, etc great, of course!

But no one up to this point in NFL history has the greatness of Brady.

I am not from New England and i am not a Patriots fan. But i cannot dispute that Brady is not only the best qb ever but the greatest overall player in NFL history.

Thats a personal kind of claim i guess also, because how i define "the greatest" and how others define "the greatest" can be vastly different.

I'm sure someone out there thinks Jim Brown is the greatest NFL player ever. Because they put stock in his dominance on the field, athletic ability, what have you.

I put stock in Super Bowl wins, Super Bowl appearances, conference championships, MVP's, Super Bowl MVP's, playoff wins, playoff appearances... as well as career passing statistics and records, season passing statistics and records, playoff passing statistics and records... then come the intangibles. Leadership, personality, likability, character, motivation, work ethic.

Personally when i take all of those things into consideration Tom Brady is hands down the greatest NFL player ever.

[Gustomania]

I can respect that.....I am not saying Brady doesn't deserve that, I just think in general footballs rich history deserves respect when discussing greats of the game.

I think it's awesome that I can still pick up many iconic cards for dirt cheap..... as an example a Unitas PSA 6 RC goes for what 500-600, that's crazy.

I hope Brady breaks through too fans as football and it's history is greatly undervalued especially guys like Unitas, Brown to ray nittchke, deacon jones and guys like Bree' and Big Ben who are currently under appreciated in the hobby.

If it takes someone like Brady to revitalize football card so and hopefully put then on the map compared with baseball and basketball that would be amazing.

QUOTE=StevenTormollan;13192635]The whole conversation started wmwhen you chimed in/ refuted my claim that Tom Brady is the best qb ever in the NFL and probably the best overall NFL player of all time.

I didn't say there weren't a multitude of amazing, incredible players in NFL history. Of course there are. I'm not dismissing any of these incredible players you named, i am saying that none of them have the greatness that Tom Brady has as far as being the overall #1 best NFL player ever.

Was Rice, Montana, Unitas, Starr, LT, etc great, of course!

But no one up to this point in NFL history has the greatness of Brady.

I am not from New England and i am not a Patriots fan. But i cannot dispute that Brady is not only the best qb ever but the greatest overall player in NFL history.

Thats a personal kind of claim i guess also, because how i define "the greatest" and how others define "the greatest" can be vastly different.

I'm sure someone out there thinks Jim Brown is the greatest NFL player ever. Because they put stock in his dominance on the field, athletic ability, what have you.

I put stock in Super Bowl wins, Super Bowl appearances, conference championships, MVP's, Super Bowl MVP's, playoff wins, playoff appearances... as well as career passing statistics and records, season passing statistics and records, playoff passing statistics and records... then come the intangibles. Leadership, personality, likability, character, motivation, work ethic.

Personally when i take all of those things into consideration Tom Brady is hands down the greatest NFL player ever.[/QUOTE]

[mlbfan10]

It's tough to compare, vintage and 80's seem to be dropping a lot and not just in Football. Baseball vintage has dropped considerably. On topic with Montana and Brady, Brady's top rookie card is also certified autographed. So funny since Montana is Brady's hero and GOAT.

[MJGOAT23]

One of my greatest thrills collecting cards was pulling a Montana rookie out of a 35 year old unopened pack last year. Pretty off centered but it felt so good.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4718/26058418568_94c704d7bb_o.jpg

wow awesome. Where'd you get the pack? and was it wax, from a box, rack pack etc?

[MJGOAT23]

I dont know guys, I think TECMO clearly proved that Bo Jackson is the GOAT.

[Siberian13]

I feel the exact same way about discussing this with you.

Before i leave, just let me give you some advice, don't mortgage the house to invest it all in Lawrence Taylor collectibles.

Even though he was the greatest NFL player and human being ever to walk this Earth. Definitively more meaningful to the NFL than Tom Brady ever could be, right?

Didn’t you mortgage your home in ghetto on the Pats covering against the jags? Or $50,000 as you said? :). You sound silly when you type. And calling you silly coming from me off all people on this forum, sounds really bad. Hehehehe

[SirTommyWinAlot]

wait let me get this right, Not only does the QB on my team become the GOAT resulting in an increase in his cards, but because of that the 2nd best quarterback who used to be the GOAT has seen his cards decrease so that I can buy his cards at a better price?

Win Win!

Dilly Dilly!

[nman84]

You guys are making too much out of this by saying Brady has caused Montanas Rookie to drop. The peak 2016 price noted was when certain key Rookie cards all spiked in value (buyers group?, dealers overpaying before the national?). I can’t say for certain but supposedly many of these sale went unpaid for. Montana, Unitas, Rice, and other HOF rookies from other sports all soared and have now dropped back appropriately.

Rice PSA 9 was easily going for $600+ and can now be had for around $400, did Brady swing this to? Ok if you want to take the argument from best quarterback ever to best football player ever.

But What about Nolan Ryan as mentioned in a thread in the vintage forum. His PSA 8 and all grades have dropped in value since peak 2016. Why? Because of TB12? Lol

Plenty of other examples from that 2016 summer time frame

[Bassplayah101]

I can respect that.....I am not saying Brady doesn't deserve that, I just think in general footballs rich history deserves respect when discussing greats of the game.

I think it's awesome that I can still pick up many iconic cards for dirt cheap..... as an example a Unitas PSA 6 RC goes for what 500-600, that's crazy.

I hope Brady breaks through too fans as football and it's history is greatly undervalued especially guys like Unitas, Brown to ray nittchke, deacon jones and guys like Bree' and Big Ben who are currently under appreciated in the hobby.

If it takes someone like Brady to revitalize football card so and hopefully put then on the map compared with baseball and basketball that would be amazing.

QUOTE=StevenTormollan;13192635]The whole conversation started wmwhen you chimed in/ refuted my claim that Tom Brady is the best qb ever in the NFL and probably the best overall NFL player of all time.

I didn't say there weren't a multitude of amazing, incredible players in NFL history. Of course there are. I'm not dismissing any of these incredible players you named, i am saying that none of them have the greatness that Tom Brady has as far as being the overall #1 best NFL player ever.

Was Rice, Montana, Unitas, Starr, LT, etc great, of course!

But no one up to this point in NFL history has the greatness of Brady.

I am not from New England and i am not a Patriots fan. But i cannot dispute that Brady is not only the best qb ever but the greatest overall player in NFL history.

Thats a personal kind of claim i guess also, because how i define "the greatest" and how others define "the greatest" can be vastly different.

I'm sure someone out there thinks Jim Brown is the greatest NFL player ever. Because they put stock in his dominance on the field, athletic ability, what have you.

I put stock in Super Bowl wins, Super Bowl appearances, conference championships, MVP's, Super Bowl MVP's, playoff wins, playoff appearances... as well as career passing statistics and records, season passing statistics and records, playoff passing statistics and records... then come the intangibles. Leadership, personality, likability, character, motivation, work ethic.

Personally when i take all of those things into consideration Tom Brady is hands down the greatest NFL player ever.[/QUOTE]


/thread

Well said..

[carlo16]

/thread

Well said..[/QUOTE]

So basically you boiled down all the attributes and adjectives for Brady into "dominance", "athletic ability" and "what have you"for Jim Brown. Sounds fair. Well not you but you did /thread

[Bassplayah101]

/thread

Well said..

So basically you boiled down all the attributes and adjectives for Brady into "dominance", "athletic ability" and "what have you"for Jim Brown. Sounds fair. Well not you but you did /thread[/QUOTE]

huh?
I didnt understand a word of that, sorry..

I was (for the record) agreeing with the rationalization of Gusto's post in that his statement is what it comes down to in my own head.
Performance equates into metrics and statistics, and that's what tells the story.
Bradys performance over the last 17 years has been nothing short of extraordinary, and that cream rises to the top.

[favre3mvp]

Sounds like a bunch of old school
And new school debates.


This should go now where, but...

I’ll be back anyway to read the comments...
Dont let me down old/new schoolers...

I need my entertainment.

[carlo16]

So basically you boiled down all the attributes and adjectives for Brady into "dominance", "athletic ability" and "what have you"for Jim Brown. Sounds fair. Well not you but you did /thread

huh?
I didnt understand a word of that, sorry..

I was (for the record) agreeing with the rationalization of Gusto's post in that his statement is what it comes down to in my own head.
Performance equates into metrics and statistics, and that's what tells the story.
Bradys performance over the last 17 years has been nothing short of extraordinary, and that cream rises to the top.[/QUOTE]

What I'm saying is does Jim Brown not have any metrics or statistics? He just had athletic ability and what have you. Oh and for the record I think Tom Brady is probably the greatest football player of all time.

[nman84]

Bassplayah You quoted two people, I don’t think Gusto was the one you meant to agree with

[dfr52]

https://media.giphy.com/media/ap6wcjRyi8HoA/giphy.gif

Yep :)!

[Bassplayah101]

Bassplayah You quoted two people, I don’t think Gusto was the one you meant to agree with

Youre right, thank you..
It was StevenTormollan's post I was agreeing with. Gusto's response had the quoting window all messed up, so I thought it was him.
In any case, I highlighted the statement that I was in agreement with.

Seems Im not the only one with a messed up quoting window because a post above from Carlo16 shows a quote seemingly from me that I didnt actually type.

[Gustomania]

Took the kids sledding and for fun back on BO.....life is good.

So sounds like the steroid era of football is crowning these modern players as the best at everything.....

My 2 cents as I can appreciate everyone's opinion but TB is not the greatest, but rather one of the best. I really can't say TB was greater than many old school guys like Otto, Brown, Unitas, Montana or Rice......or the other way....just not a fair comparison

[jasonm2121]

Man, went to the bar and lord has this thread gone sideways.

[ThoseBackPages]

Man, went to the bar and lord has this thread gone sideways.

maybe you're intoxicated? :D

[jasonm2121]

maybe you're intoxicated? :D

No, hungover.

[Siberian13]

No, hungover.

Drinking more makes that feeling go away. :)

[jjeanius]

Brady being a late round pick do you think the number of RT cards was very limited. I know the RT are not numbered but I have to believe the total # of these cards has to be low as I can’t see him signing many cards as he wasn’t in demand as the other QB’s in the draft.

The real money card is the Championship Ticket x/100. That card in gem mint condition has to be like a hefty 401k plan in value lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, quite the opposite. The fact that no one cared for Brady at the time meant that he was likely a super cheap auto for the card company...so there are probably MORE RTs for Brady than for other more popular players, as he was really cheap filler.

[jasonm2121]

Drinking more makes that feeling go away. :)

Truth.

[jasonm2121]

Actually, quite the opposite. The fact that no one cared for Brady at the time meant that he was likely a super cheap auto for the card company...so there are probably MORE RTs for Brady than for other more popular players, as he was really cheap filler.

However, because he was late round, collectors didn't pay attention and less took good care of his cards, leaving less in good condition. BaBoom!

[StevenTormollan]

/thread

Well said..[/QUOTE]

Thanks, i actually was the one who said that. Gusto was arguing with me.

[4sportcardguy]

Also Brady has TOTALLY surpassed Montana and anyone else for best NFL QB ever and i would say easily the best NFL player ever. Win or lose on Sunday.

If he wins again, wow. I mean, its no contest.

If he wins 2 or 3 more rings? Holy cow.

Raw Bowman rookies will be $1k.

Easily the best player ever? It’s arguable but I mean common what is Jerry rice? Chopped liver?

[oplum29]

Easily the best player ever? It’s arguable but I mean common what is Jerry rice? Chopped liver?

yeah greatest player ever is gonna be another debate in itself.

I've heard Rice, Walter Payton, and Jim Brown are right up there with the greatest players ever.

Montana for whatever reason, rarely got the top seed, usually 2-5 from the books I used to read back then.

[k13]

Vintage was pumped/schilled a year ago really hard.
Jordan/Gretzky are down too from peaks.

Brady means nothing in the big picture.