NFL Rule Question

[rman112]

4th and 1. Offense goes for it and is ruled short. Offensive coach challenges. After review, they move the ball up a bit, but still short. So it's still a TOD, but at a slightly different spot. Does the offensive coach that challenged lose his timeout, or keep it?

[mike1498]

This wouldn’t happen

[rman112]

This wouldn’t happen

It's actually a specific play I'm referring it. Week 7, Titans/Chargers. Tannehill snuck it on 4th down. Looked like he got it. After they spotted it, they ruled that he actually LOST yardage. And there was no way in hell that that was the case.

[majestik101]

It's actually a specific play I'm referring it. Week 7, Titans/Chargers. Tannehill snuck it on 4th down. Looked like he got it. After they spotted it, they ruled that he actually LOST yardage. And there was no way in hell that that was the case.

And there's your answer. It was the Titans. Bet if it was the Patriots they would've been awarded the first down.

[mike1498]

It's actually a specific play I'm referring it. Week 7, Titans/Chargers. Tannehill snuck it on 4th down. Looked like he got it. After they spotted it, they ruled that he actually LOST yardage. And there was no way in hell that that was the case.

Yeah but they couldn’t rule that because couldn’t we challenge every play and say they are an inch off? It’s kinda a unrealistic idea

[rman112]

I get what you're saying. But no one's challenging a 2nd and 9 to hopefully get a 2nd and 8.

If they review it and see that they were wrong, but maybe not even wrong enough to overturn, it just doesn't make sense to me to keep the ball at the original (wrong) spot, just on principle. But this is NFL officiating we're talking about.

I thought Vrabel should've challenged. Just kinda talking/thinking out loud about the different views on it.

[mike1498]

I get what you're saying. But no one's challenging a 2nd and 9 to hopefully get a 2nd and 8.

If they review it and see that they were wrong, but maybe not even wrong enough to overturn, it just doesn't make sense to me to keep the ball at the original (wrong) spot, just on principle. But this is NFL officiating we're talking about.

I thought Vrabel should've challenged. Just kinda talking/thinking out loud about the different views on it.

Okay why would the rules change from the OP and your example you just posted

[rman112]

Okay why would the rules change from the OP and your example you just posted

What IS the rule? That is my question.

What is the rule? .. Has it ever happened? .. Would it (realistically) ever happen? .... They're all separate questions. I'm not sure which you are answering.

Are you saying that ONLY an overturned spot that makes it a 1D would be a won challenge, or that technically they could change the spot (but it stays a TOD), but most likely wouldn't?

[rman112]

And there's your answer. It was the Titans. Bet if it was the Patriots they would've been awarded the first down.

I just realized why Arians didn't challenge that punter fumble, btw. All they would've gotten was the extra few yards, since the ball couldn't have been advanced. It just would've been Bucs ball, plus an extra 5 yards or so, right where the guy recovered it.

[Fenway55]

4th and 1. Offense goes for it and is ruled short. Offensive coach challenges. After review, they move the ball up a bit, but still short. So it's still a TOD, but at a slightly different spot. Does the offensive coach that challenged lose his timeout, or keep it?
He loses it because he lost the challenge. You can only challenge the spot of the ball if it potentially results in (or takes away) a first down, and in order for it to be a successful challenge, the first down has to be reversed (or awarded).

[Fenway55]

Yeah but they couldn’t rule that because couldn’t we challenge every play and say they are an inch off? It’s kinda a unrealistic idea
No, because you can only challenge the spot of the ball if it impacts a 1st down. So you wouldn’t be allowed to challenge whether the ball was spotted a yard short to set up 3rd and 6 when you think it should be 3rd and 5.

[Willikn]

He loses it because he lost the challenge. You can only challenge the spot of the ball if it potentially results in (or takes away) a first down, and in order for it to be a successful challenge, the first down has to be reversed (or awarded).

This is the rule, but it is a bit gray.

The defense can challenge a spot without changing the down and still get the "win" as a successful challenge.

ex: Player runs for 50 yard gain (no score). Challenge flag thrown stating player stepped out of bounds after gaining 25. Turns out he did, ball moved back, and the defensive team is deemed successful.

The offense cannot challenge "successfully" unless the down is impacted.

[Fenway55]

This is the rule, but it is a bit gray.

The defense can challenge a spot without changing the down and still get the "win" as a successful challenge.

ex: Player runs for 50 yard gain (no score). Challenge flag thrown stating player stepped out of bounds after gaining 25. Turns out he did, ball moved back, and the defensive team is deemed successful.

The offense cannot challenge "successfully" unless the down is impacted.
That falls into the category of “did the player step out of bounds” and is not considered the “spotting of the ball” in the sense of where the ball actually was when the player was down by contact. I mean, yeah, it changes where the ball is spotted but it’s a different category of challenge. When I say “spotting of the ball” I mean that extra yard or two where the ball actually was when the player went down. You can’t challenge a bad spot unless a first down is on the line and in order to “win” the challenge, you need a reversal of the first down. And touchdowns are included in this as if they are first downs (which they actually are for statistical purposes).

[marinocollector]

Its situational. This is why the officiating crew walks over to the coach to see what EXACTLY he is challenging.
In this scenario, the coach is challenging the placement of the ball RESULTING IN A FIRST DOWN.
There is other times the offense can challenge the placement of the ball (albeit difficult for these to occur depending on whistle), but certain situations require that the coach challenge if the placement effects the down.

[Willikn]

That falls into the category of “did the player step out of bounds” and is not considered the “spotting of the ball” in the sense of where the ball actually was when the player was down by contact. I mean, yeah, it changes where the ball is spotted but it’s a different category of challenge. When I say “spotting of the ball” I mean that extra yard or two where the ball actually was when the player went down. You can’t challenge a bad spot unless a first down is on the line and in order to “win” the challenge, you need a reversal of the first down. And touchdowns are included in this as if they are first downs (which they actually are for statistical purposes).

OK. Same scenario, only the challenge surrounds, "knee down" after 25 yards. Ball moved back 25 yards. 1st down and ten either way. For the defense, that's a success. The offense, no.

Both are "spot of the ball".

I realize it seems obvious but in the end the challenge is the same. Spot of the ball whether the difference is 25 yards or six inches.

[Fenway55]

OK. Same scenario, only the challenge surrounds, "knee down" after 25 yards. Ball moved back 25 yards. 1st down and ten either way. For the defense, that's a success. The offense, no.

Both are "spot of the ball".

I realize it seems obvious but in the end the challenge is the same. Spot of the ball whether the difference is 25 yards or six inches.
Yes I understand your situation impacts the “spot of the ball” but you’re not getting the context in which I am using that phrase. A “was his knee down at the 25?” challenge is not the same as “he was tackled right here and we are putting the ball at the 25 1/2 yard line instead of the 25.”

[sethc1020]

4th and 1. Offense goes for it and is ruled short. Offensive coach challenges. After review, they move the ball up a bit, but still short. So it's still a TOD, but at a slightly different spot. Does the offensive coach that challenged lose his timeout, or keep it?
If the refs move the ball after the review they would win the challenge and keep the timeout . The coach is challenging the spot of the ball not whether its a first down or not.

[Willikn]

If the refs move the ball after the review they would win the challenge and keep the timeout . The coach is challenging the spot of the ball not whether its a first down or not.

Not how it works. If they move the ball, but it isn't a first down, the challenge is lost.

[Willikn]

Yes I understand your situation impacts the “spot of the ball” but you’re not getting the context in which I am using that phrase. A “was his knee down at the 25?” challenge is not the same as “he was tackled right here and we are putting the ball at the 25 1/2 yard line instead of the 25.”

I do like the language here. Conversely, if the defense were to challenge a 4th and one spot, the ball moved but it remained a first down, the defense would lose..

You won me over.

[RustyDawg37]

anytime you challenge a spot and the spot is changed you win the challenge. pure and simple. Spots are not challenged all the time simply because you only get two challenges (potentially three) per game. The only part I am not sure of is, there may be situational limitations to actually making the challenge.

To answer the OP question: the coach would not lose a timeout.

[Willikn]

anytime you challenge a spot and the spot is changed you win the challenge. pure and simple. Spots are not challenged all the time simply because you only get two challenges (potentially three) per game. The only part I am not sure of is, there may be situational limitations to actually making the challenge.

To answer the OP question: the coach would not lose a timeout.

See NFL rule book..

the spot of the ball may be challenged in certain cases. In such cases, a decision to respot the football is not enough to win the challenge; only when the ball is respotted and the ruling on the field is reversed by remeasurement is the challenging team not charged a timeout.

[RustyDawg37]

Then I am old and this has changed lol. I have seen the situation described in the op where the coach did not lose a challenge. probably in the infancy of challenges.

[Earlsnake07]

I have not read any responses and did not see the play in question...but here is what I think

Going from the OP it is still a TOD, but the offense does not lose a TO because the challenge was won (you said the ball was moved up a bit, therefore the original spot was incorrect).


Edit - looks like after reading comments I am wrong. I always thought that if a play was challenged and the original call was reversed it was a "win", therefore no TO would be taken.

[Willikn]

Edit - looks like after reading comments I am wrong. I always thought that if a play was challenged and the original call was reversed it was a "win", therefore no TO would be taken.

I believe the line of demarcation (albeit not officially) is the clock. If the clock isn't impacted, then you are challenging a "spot". The challenger agrees that the ball carrier was down at the time they said he was, but the ball was spotted wrong. That means you have to alter the down for success.

If the clock is impacted, that means you are challenging play that should not have occurred. There the down doesn't have to change for a challenge to be successful. (ex: 50 yard gain reduced to a 25 yard gain)

I recall cases where the ball was moved, the chains brought in, and the first down wasn't made. In those cases the challenge was deemed a loss. It is rare though. Even if the spot was off by an inch they generally don't move the ball unless it is to reflect a first down.

[rman112]

Thanks for the replies. Here is the play:

https://twitter.com/PaulKuharskyNFL/status/1186301479340118016/video/1

Or a better view here 8:42:

7rvsXjKMa0w

I wish I could find the whole thing, because the ref that ends up spotting it actually takes a step BACK before spotting the ball, after the first ref stands at the spot.

[rman112]

That "stands" just now on MNF basically answered my question.