Panini has made bots obsolete - Select Hobby

[theleica]

Bots are dead now. Is everyone happy?? $425 a box for Select hobby.


https://www.paniniamerica.net/2020-panini-select-nba-trading-cards-hobby.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ThoseBackPages]

INSANE times!

[Bob Ross]

Not this again.

[theleica]

Not this again.

Yep.

I wonder if distributers and resellers got pissed at Panini over Optic Hobby and that is why we are seeing these changes. Offering boxes selling for $450 at $100 and folks undercutting resellers on eBay.

[CircleTheWagon]

$20 cello, $40 blaster, $80 mega coming soon to a Walmart/target near you!

[theleica]

$20 cello, $40 blaster, $80 mega coming soon to a Walmart/target near you!

No....

Those will be Panini's prices if they list them on their website.

[eastbayak]

They’re selling non-FOTL Select basically at the floor of FOTL Select...

LOL! Wow! It’ll still sell out too.

[theleica]

They’re selling non-FOTL Select basically at the floor of FOTL Select...

LOL! Wow! It’ll still sell out too.

No it won't. Cheaper to buy from BO.

[Supercomputers]

Wont sell out at all. Big mistake by Panini. It shows you how poorly its run. You cant buy buzz like they were getting with the sell outs and chatter and shortages. Plus they were making good money at the prices they were charging. Now it will sit there and rot and they put a ceiling on the last products. Perception is key.

[yaoming]

How do you know that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RogerGodahell]

Yep.

I wonder if distributers and resellers got pissed at Panini over Optic Hobby and that is why we are seeing these changes. Offering boxes selling for $450 at $100 and folks undercutting resellers on eBay.

What do you mean? Did Panini sell Optic hobby direct? I can't keep up with all of the releases maybe they did. I remember Optic choice. And how are bots dead?

[ThoseBackPages]

Wont sell out at all. Big mistake by Panini. It shows you how poorly its run. You cant buy buzz like they were getting with the sell outs and chatter and shortages. Plus they were making good money at the prices they were charging. Now it will sit there and rot and they put a ceiling on the last products. Perception is key.

Panini was making good money on the $60 Optic Hobby Boxes they sold to distributors?

[BreaultCards]

Definitely not a bubble...

[eastbayak]

No it won't. Cheaper to buy from BO.

You’re making a few assumptions:

- You’re assuming they’ll release a lot (they could but historically have not)
- You’re assuming I meant immediate sell out (not the case, just that they’ll sell out whatever they list whether it be 10 minutes or 10 days)
- You’re assuming everyone knows about BO (many do, but not all)

They’ll sell out.

[nickha2]

Could not be happier. The bots can suck a fatty.

[theleica]

How do you know that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That it won't sell out? Simple math.

Panini - $425 + 26.99 tax = $451.99

Blowout - $450 a box + $0 tax = $450 - $10 promotion = $440

[theleica]

You’re making a few assumptions:

- You’re assuming they’ll release a lot (they could but historically have not)
- You’re assuming I meant immediate sell out (not the case, just that they’ll sell out whatever they list whether it be 10 minutes or 10 days)
- You’re assuming everyone knows about BO (many do, but not all)

They’ll sell out.

Since Panini has implemented the price hike, nothing has sold out except FOTL...

[mwheeler27]

They will sell out.

Maybe not instantly, but they will sell them all. And FOTL prices will likely climb higher.

[RogerGodahell]

I don't understand how this will stop the bots? What if the bots buy them all at $425?

[ThoseBackPages]

wait wait wait...

people think this WONT sell out?

cant even find Donruss Retail, but this wont sell?

:cry:

[theleica]

I don't understand how this will stop the bots? What if the bots buy them all at $425?

If there is no money to be made, bots go away.

[mwheeler27]

wait wait wait...

people think this WONT sell out?

cant even find Donruss Retail, but this wont sell?

:cry:

People can wish, can’t they? ;)

[Bob Ross]

Does anyone have the MSRP and wholesale price that shops paid for these?

[RogerGodahell]

If there is no money to be made, bots go away.

I guess i don't get it. BO was selling pre orders for $5400 case. If you buy 12 direct from Panini at $425 that's $5100. It's still cheaper.

[gomiamigo]

Could not be happier. The bots can suck a fatty.

Completely agree. Why should botbois steal the profits and the cards?

[tommyboiazn23]

You’re making a few assumptions:

- You’re assuming they’ll release a lot (they could but historically have not)
- You’re assuming I meant immediate sell out (not the case, just that they’ll sell out whatever they list whether it be 10 minutes or 10 days)
- You’re assuming everyone knows about BO (many do, but not all)

They’ll sell out.

They will sell out.

Maybe not instantly, but they will sell them all. And FOTL prices will likely climb higher.

Agreed. It just won't sell out in 2 minutes and clog up the site where you can't check out and get the spinning wheel of death lol

[Kelso242424]

It will sellout in 5 mins or less......folks are CRAZY over ANY & ALL Basketball.

[Supercomputers]

It will sellout in 5 mins or less......folks are CRAZY over ANY & ALL Basketball.

I guess that's why optic fast break has sat there all day at 319.00

[RogerGodahell]

It wont sell out immediately but it will sell out. It's still cheaper than you can get it from the big 3.

[Jhampton92]

No more MSRP products. FOTL sells for the high and now the few boxes of hobby we had "chance" at.. Oh well. Singles it is

[KhalDrogo]

This is great news. I don't see Panini doing a non-Dutch auction for FOTL again this season. They left way too much money on the table with Crown and Origins, even though both products suck.

[brothertona]

This is the ideal way to release new products honestly. I wish they had done this with Prizm - $350 or $400 a box on the site - keeps bots at bay and allows you to pick up product.

[allstarcomics]

Does anyone have the MSRP and wholesale price that shops paid for these?

Mapp is $150

[Bob Ross]

Mapp is $150

Incredible.

[kobemagee29]

So does no one else think its kind of odd how optic fast break & now select are now priced almost identical to blowouts price,
Coincidence, I don't think so

[yodude91]

Props to Panini ! Screw the bots ! +1 for the collectors

[Jhampton92]

So does no one else think its kind of odd how optic fast break & now select are now priced almost identical to blowouts price,
Coincidence, I don't think so

Definitely not a coincidence. Maybe distributors raised issue with Panini throwing bones at MSRP.

[theleica]

Props to Panini ! Screw the bots ! +1 for the collectors

How is this +1 for collectors?

[Jhampton92]

How is this +1 for collectors?

My question as well. Even with bots scooping most of hobby boxes that were offered at MSRP there were still some deals on eBay to be found for lower than market.

[avicke]

So does no one else think its kind of odd how optic fast break & now select are now priced almost identical to blowouts price,
Coincidence, I don't think so

It’s almost like Panini has the Internet in their offices...

Sure, prices aren’t like previous years, but singles are selling at much higher levels for the top rookies and top vets. Bubble? Absolutely. But the prices are in line.

What is a Zion zebra going to go for? I sold Lukas courtside zebra last spring for $800 (not one of my more intelligent moves). Will this years LeBron parallels outsell his from last year at release? Absolutely. Giannis? Yup. Not to mention have Luka 2nd year stuff be very viable. Throw in Ja. And the mid tier guys.

Will people lose their asses on this? Oh very much so. Just watch that FOTL break and see those prices. But how many of us have or will have thousands, yes thousands, of extra money to spend because Panini put in some extra effort on those optic factory sets? Or the fanatics Prizm megas below msrp?

Plenty of this will sell, and be ripped. Can’t stomach the price point (like me?)? Buy singles or put that money in more logical places.

It kills the desire to resell this, but gives us a fighting chance at hitting that add to cart button once or a dozen times as opposed to a hundred clicks a minute and still strike out and rip it.

What most of you really want is to push all that new money, and Zion hype, out of the hobby and going back to the way things were. It will get much worse before then. Whether that means things continue to rise or the bubble bursts and we all lose a good amount of money. I’d rather take the higher prices, and be smart about how you approach the hobby. My (mostly) baseball cards from the 80s and 90s agree.

[avicke]

My question as well. Even with bots scooping most of hobby boxes that were offered at MSRP there were still some deals on eBay to be found for lower than market.

At the very least, probably more of this being ripped as opposed to flipped/held. More singles, sooner. Easier to pick and choose how to spend that $450 or so you’d save from not buying a box.

Also love watching select breaks, think a lot more of this product will end up in the hands of people who want to rip it. Not the sneaker heads.

[Giantrobot]

The only rookies selling at elevated prices are Zion and Ja, and mostly Zion. Everything else is comparable to years before, save for LeBron stuff also at a premium. We had Luka and Trae last year, and even that didn’t reach these levels until late in the season.

[kobemagee29]

I will also add that Blowout was sold out of fast break hobby boxes for at least the last week. Then for some reason, when I looked at them today at 9am, they were still sold out, but around 10am, they were back in stock

[avicke]

I will also add that Blowout was sold out of fast break hobby boxes for at least the last week. Then for some reason, when I looked at them today at 9am, they were still sold out, but around 10am, they were back in stock

I feel like it’s a decently known rumor but probably fact that Blowout has a very impressive warehouse(s) with product that may or may not be in stock. 2018 Topps Update comes to mind. It is very much a business and is smart to sell in quantities at certain levels but also hold back some for the inevitable product growth pretty everything worthwhile experiences. As long as total production levels are kept in check. Don’t need another junk era. But it does probably prop up prices a bit.

Not much different than stashes of graded cards, hot rookies, sealed wax, etc. that most all of us have. Allows me to excessively rip stuff that I know won’t resell well but is fun to open either way.

[fdjizm]

I haven't bought a panini box of anything, and I will keep it that way.
Singles for me.

[majorflippers]

This is the ideal way to release new products honestly. I wish they had done this with Prizm - $350 or $400 a box on the site - keeps bots at bay and allows you to pick up product.

What a stupid comment.

This hobby is now for whales and breakers.

[ninjacookies]

This is what happens when a product has no retail.


>tfw Hackler realized how much money they left on the table with Optic hobby

https://media1.giphy.com/media/eb4WGfjWeIsgM/giphy.gif

[mc1]

wait wait wait...

people think this WONT sell out?

cant even find Donruss Retail, but this wont sell?

:cry:

There’s loads of 19-20 Hoops and Donruss in my area. Hoarders/flippers have only bought up Optic and Prizm.

[CircleTheWagon]

There’s loads of 19-20 Hoops and Donruss in my area. Hoarders/flippers have only bought up Optic and Prizm.

A few sales of 2x retail on those donruss hanger boxes. If anything, it’s worth grabbing to sell down the road as I don’t see prices dropping on sealed 2019 wax.

[spacejammer]

Title should be panini has made collecting obsolete

[carl2001]

Why is it so expensive?

[tommyboiazn23]

Why is it so expensive?

2019 Draft Class+Zion+Demand=

https://media.giphy.com/media/d3mmdNnW5hkoUxTG/giphy.gif

[mma138]

Only 12 packs a box ?hope you at least get a zion ?

[daviswr7]

Can we get to next year already!!!! Good lord this is crazy.

[bigjbasketball]

This isn’t even a hobby anymore, I don’t know what you call this. First we get Optic Fast Break (a $105 product) for $320, and now we’re looking at $425 + tax for Select? I don’t see these selling out, especially when Fast Break sat there all day. The only way these will sell out is if BO pulls their stock offline and lists their hobby boxes as “sold out.” Then, after Panini is all out of stock, BO can put theirs back up at $500 per box. Easy money!

[majestik101]

This will sell out quickly.

It's simply amazing how the ripper and flipper gamblers continue to just blindly buy up these absurdly priced boxes from the suppliers. edit: With ZERO guarantee of even pulling a base card of the hottest young rook.

Panini got ya by the balls, ya junkies.





.

[Boa]

Bite it bots....even though I pay the same.

What’s better - Panini makes the money or boters?

I’d rather buy a box from direct from Panini then eBay for several reasons

[regularp]

This is sickening. Panini should be selling more boxes to local shops instead of 75% of their inventory to BO, DA and the breakers.

[Bob Ross]

This is sickening. Panini should be selling more boxes to local shops instead of 75% of their inventory to BO, DA and the breakers.

https://i.imgur.com/KgTSksql.png

[Jopeal]

I’m a bit confused about the complaints “collectors” are having with this decision by Panini.

This is the inevitable result of supply & demand in the 21st century. Why should Panini sell their Prizm hobby boxes for $125 only to have everything purchased en masse by price gouging resellers?

Why do some collectors feel entitled to the best quality products (including autographed cards of NBA superstars) for pennies on the dollar? Do you want to purchase some cheap Zion Williamson autographed RCs? So does everyone else hence the exorbitant prices we are seeing.

There are still many quality low-end products for collectors on a budget.

[indyguy]

I’m a bit confused about the complaints “collectors” are having with this decision by Panini.

This is the inevitable result of supply & demand in the 21st century. Why should Panini sell their Prizm hobby boxes for $125 only to have everything purchased en masse by price gouging resellers?

Why do some collectors feel entitled to the best quality products (including autographed cards of NBA superstars) for pennies on the dollar? Do you want to purchase some cheap Zion Williamson autographed RCs? So does everyone else hence the exorbitant prices we are seeing.

There are still many quality low-end products for collectors on a budget.

You mean like Hoops for $100 per box? Where are all these quality low-end products you speak of?

[doubledribble]

This is sickening. Panini should be selling more boxes to local shops instead of 75% of their inventory to BO, DA and the breakers.

Agreed. They have the power to change the hobby. Make it sustainable for regular folks.

[brothertona]

Where are these local shops? Most people don't have LCS's. It is almost an hour to go to a LCS. As much as I love LCS's they are a dying breed and it's for the best - the internet can largely do their job better than they can. If I want to buy a pack of cards I can order them online, if I go to my LCS I can't buy a pack I have to buy the entire box. It's not like my LCS is cheaper either, it's the same price as Blowout - most all of them price according to Blowout.

[theleica]

I guess i don't get it. BO was selling pre orders for $5400 case. If you buy 12 direct from Panini at $425 that's $5100. It's still cheaper.

You are correct. BO is preselling 2019-20 Select at $5400 a case. BO does not charge sales tax. Shipping is free.

My total with BO is $5400.

Panini is selling boxes at $425 a piece or $5100 a case. Panini charges sales tax. For me, the rate is 6.35% or $323.85.

My total with Panini is $5423.85.

[Boo]

This is sickening. Panini should be selling more boxes to local shops instead of 75% of their inventory to BO, DA and the breakers.

Yes because that's what companies are setup to do, sell things lower than market price and not make as much money as possible.

[k13]

If Panini sold it for a $100 all these cockroaches would be reselling it on ebay for $400 anyway just like they do with their garbage retail.

[brothertona]

Right, if they sold it on the site for $100 bots would grab it immediately and put it on the bay for $400. It's not like we'd have a shot at getting it if they put it on at MSRP. Panini needs a membership club or something.

[oldgoldy97]

Right, if they sold it on the site for $100 bots would grab it immediately and put it on the bay for $400. It's not like we'd have a shot at getting it if they put it on at MSRP. Panini needs a membership club or something.

A FOTL customer loyalty program. I was buying FOTL products before they became hot. Now I can’t even find a blaster at retail price.

I’d pay a few hundred a year to buy products at MSRP.

[Brobocop]

A FOTL customer loyalty program. I was buying FOTL products before they became hot. Now I can’t even find a blaster at retail price.

I’d pay a few hundred a year to buy products at MSRP.

Wouldn't all the bot bois do this too?

[Cheken]

If Panini sold it for a $100 all these cockroaches would be reselling it on ebay for $400 anyway just like they do with their garbage retail.

Maybe after a while these bot peeps will move on to another get rich hobby. Wishful thinking but it’s a shot lol

[oldgoldy97]

Wouldn't all the bot bois do this too?

They haven’t been around as long. 2017 was before the bot revolution.

[bigjbasketball]

I think the issue is that this is not a $425 product. The original MSRP was $150 and Panini shouldn't just get to mark up the product because it's "hot" and people will pay more. Before everyone chimes in with "but but but, capitalism! supply and demand!" just look at any other industry that sells similar goods. If Nike has a hot product, do they jack up the price themselves and sell it for what the re-sellers are selling it at, or do they sell it directly at their original MSRP? This is a little different obviously because Panini's bread and butter is not selling direct to the consumer like Nike does, but the same principles should still apply.

I hope everyone is smart enough to pay less at BO and the boxes on Panini's site just sit and gather dust. I'll be interested to see what my LCS charges for these if they get some boxes later this week. I'm sure their distributor is charging through the roof for them.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

I’d love to see the unopened market collapse....

[yodude91]

How is this +1 for collectors?

My question as well. Even with bots scooping most of hobby boxes that were offered at MSRP there were still some deals on eBay to be found for lower than market.

My definition of collectors is the buyers that buy, open and collect. Granted the price isn't bottom price of MSRP, but that's just the manufactured suggested retail price. Yes you can find cheaper deals if you look for it but you're raising your risk as well. I'd buy direct from the company directly most of the time since it'll be cheaper but this time BO's cheaper with no tax and has coupons that work.

You can't win them all. I manage my spending and expect losses going in when I buy cards. But it's fun collecting.

[brothertona]

Peach State sure ain't giving us any discounts down here. Panini has shown again and again that they could give a sh.. about distributors blasting their product through the roof. The problem lies there, Topps has been good about this, yes products go up during the cycle but it's usually well after allocations. Panini refuses to do anything about distributors marking up product and until they do something to control their distributors everyone will suffer these high prices. The Blowouts/DA/SC are selling for what they could replace it at from the distributors/dealernet - they are still obviously getting great deals as it comes with the WalMart effect of being able to buy massive amounts of inventory so you get much lower prices.

[yiguiri2002]

You mean like Hoops for $100 per box? Where are all these quality low-end products you speak of?

I don't know if you are joking or not but in the last 3 months I've purchased 18-19 retail products under MSRP from Blowout. And that was just basketball and not including Black November.

The last month and a half has sucked but I have enough to last me until Black November or when prices crash.

[indyguy]

I don't know if you are joking or not but in the last 3 months I've purchased 18-19 retail products under MSRP from Blowout. And that was just basketball and not including Black November.

The last month and a half has sucked but I have enough to last me until Black November or when prices crash.

I was referring to just this year's products. But, yes, you are right, past years have some decent sales.

[oldgoldy97]

Peach State sure ain't giving us any discounts down here. Panini has shown again and again that they could give a sh.. about distributors blasting their product through the roof. The problem lies there, Topps has been good about this, yes products go up during the cycle but it's usually well after allocations. Panini refuses to do anything about distributors marking up product and until they do something to control their distributors everyone will suffer these high prices. The Blowouts/DA/SC are selling for what they could replace it at from the distributors/dealernet - they are still obviously getting great deals as it comes with the WalMart effect of being able to buy massive amounts of inventory so you get much lower prices.

I guess you don’t buy Bowman products. Or Topps Series 2. Don’t act like Topps gives a rip about collectors, either.

[Wiseysez]

I don’t know about bots, but they’ve made me (a ripper) obsolete.

[TheTruth17]

I think the issue is that this is not a $425 product. The original MSRP was $150 and Panini shouldn't just get to mark up the product because it's "hot" and people will pay more. Before everyone chimes in with "but but but, capitalism! supply and demand!" just look at any other industry that sells similar goods. If Nike has a hot product, do they jack up the price themselves and sell it for what the re-sellers are selling it at, or do they sell it directly at their original MSRP? This is a little different obviously because Panini's bread and butter is not selling direct to the consumer like Nike does, but the same principles should still apply.

I hope everyone is smart enough to pay less at BO and the boxes on Panini's site just sit and gather dust. I'll be interested to see what my LCS charges for these if they get some boxes later this week. I'm sure their distributor is charging through the roof for them.

So you endorse that it is Completely fine for blowout to mark up the cases to 5400 a piece, but not ok for the actual producer of the cards to charge less than that on a per box rate? Strange take.

[Soxfanguy]

What's a MSRP?

-Panini

[byronscott4ever]

What's a MSRP?

-Panini

Mocked
Suggested
Retail
Price

[TheTruth17]

MSRP - Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price — also known as “sticker” price — which is a recommended selling price that the MANUFACTURER of the goods decides.
Panini can decide whatever they want the SRP to be. Nobody else makes that decision. With this year's basketball products the only entities out there following any SRP are the likes of Target, Walmart, etc... Blowout? DA? Breakers? Flippers? Not a chance. I don't blame Panini one bit for trying to get the most they can out of some of these products. Why should they give it away just so the next guy in line can quadruple his money on their product. This isnt a trend that they can make habit once the hype of this year's bkb has passed, so they... like everybody else, are trying to cash in.

[Onepocketj]

MSRP - Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price — also known as “sticker” price — which is a recommended selling price that the MANUFACTURER of the goods decides.
Panini can decide whatever they want the SRP to be. Nobody else makes that decision. With this year's basketball products the only entities out there following any SRP are the likes of Target, Walmart, etc... Blowout? DA? Breakers? Flippers? Not a chance. I don't blame Panini one bit for trying to get the most they can out of some of these products. Why should they give it away just so the next guy in line can quadruple his money on their product. This isnt a trend that they can make habit once the hype of this year's bkb has passed, so they... like everybody else, are trying to cash in.

What happens when the prices stay the same but the draft class is horrible? I highly doubt they'll go back to $100 next year.

[TheTruth17]

What happens when the prices stay the same but the draft class is horrible? I highly doubt they'll go back to $100 next year.

If the prices are the same and the class is horrible then nobody will buy the product. Then prices will have to come down. Never really been an issue until zionmania, so it would be just like every other year prior to this.

[danimal875]

Your watching a global market clamoring for a relatively tiny amount of product. The only thing I see slowing this freight train down is the FBI clamping down on online breaking as a form of gambling and regulating it as such. So much pressure on box prices comes from that world it seems. Either that or we need a couple ho hum draft years to settle things down. However I don't see that coming, the NBA makes it easier and easier for the offensive stars to play unencumbered. In the past, a player like Ja Morant would have 10 concussions by now with how much he invades the paint.

The players have really eased up too. In the first Pelicans Lakers game, Lebron literally did not take 1 step toward Zion as he drove to the hoop for a dunk, he was maybe 10 feet away, tops. I realize its regular season, which is played almost like an all-star game now, but that culture is firmly in place, the games are played as almost an exhibition of each others skills, stopping your opponent seems like an afterthought and intimidation is completely gone from the league.

[mikesmonopoly]

Could not be happier. The bots can suck a fatty.

Amen. LCS should be upset by this, but I dig it. Might actually buy one.

[OldManLightning]

bots obsolete AND rippers LOL.

[bigjbasketball]

So you endorse that it is Completely fine for blowout to mark up the cases to 5400 a piece, but not ok for the actual producer of the cards to charge less than that on a per box rate? Strange take.

I'm not condoning what Blowout is doing, I think that's just as terrible, and I also think it's terrible that the distributor that supplies my LCS jacks up all the prices so that the card shop owner is forced to sell boxes at inflated prices to his customers, like me. The whole system is rigged, and the customer wants the product, so as long as enough people are willing to pay the marked up prices, nothing will change.

I just think it's ridiculous that Panini comes out with an MSRP for THEIR OWN PRODUCT of $150, then proceeds to sell it directly at triple the price. I was just saying that looking at simple economics, it's cheaper to buy from BO. So if you must buy, then I'd buy from BO instead of Panini. If Panini wants to sell directly to the consumer and cut out the middle man, then that's fine, but don't mark up your own MSRP to insane levels.

[Bob Ross]

I'm not condoning what Blowout is doing, I think that's just as terrible, and I also think it's terrible that the distributor that supplies my LCS jacks up all the prices so that the card shop owner is forced to sell boxes at inflated prices to his customers, like me. The whole system is rigged, and the customer wants the product, so as long as enough people are willing to pay the marked up prices, nothing will change.

I just think it's ridiculous that Panini comes out with an MSRP for THEIR OWN PRODUCT of $150, then proceeds to sell it directly at triple the price. I was just saying that looking at simple economics, it's cheaper to buy from BO. So if you must buy, then I'd buy from BO instead of Panini. If Panini wants to sell directly to the consumer and cut out the middle man, then that's fine, but don't mark up your own MSRP to insane levels.

https://i.imgur.com/KgTSksql.png

[TheTruth17]

If my kid was making lemonade and selling it for $0.25 a glass outside my house, then another kid was buying it and walking around the corner to sell it for $1.25 a glass, you better believe my kid is going to mark it up to that $1.25 ;)

[Wade Mulroy]

5wAlQf4WdiE

[Chris P]

I don’t know about bots, but they’ve made me (a ripper) obsolete.

Me too, I've only opened two boxes of Absolute Memorabilia hobby wise, everything else has been retail, Prizm, Hoops, Donruss and Dollartree packs

[kyle1707]

$20 cello, $40 blaster, $80 mega coming soon to a Walmart/target near you!

Just buy 2 hobby cases for 10 thousand dollars

[bigjbasketball]

If my kid was making lemonade and selling it for $0.25 a glass outside my house, then another kid was buying it and walking around the corner to sell it for $1.25 a glass, you better believe my kid is going to mark it up to that $1.25 ;)

A more accurate analogy would be that your kid makes some lemonade in his house, then sells the finished lemonade to the kid down the street, and that kid sells it to the public. Your kid sells it to the kid down the street for $0.25 and he could make a nice profit selling for $0.50, but everyone wants to buy it so he sells it for $1.25 instead. Your kid says, hey, why don't I just sell it myself for $1.25 and keep all the profits?

[TheTruth17]

A more accurate analogy would be that your kid makes some lemonade in his house, then sells the finished lemonade to the kid down the street, and that kid sells it to the public. Your kid sells it to the kid down the street for $0.25 and he could make a nice profit selling for $0.50, but everyone wants to buy it so he sells it for $1.25 instead. Your kid says, hey, why don't I just sell it myself for $1.25 and keep all the profits?

But my kid has been selling his homemade beverages to the public all year and watching the kid around the corner mark it up. His newest batch of lemonade he finally says enough is enough.

[bigjbasketball]

But my kid has been selling his homemade beverages to the public all year and watching the kid around the corner mark it up. His newest batch of lemonade he finally says enough is enough.

Yep, that's exactly what is happening, I'm just voicing my displeasure. I guess I can't fault Panini for trying this while there is extra money to be made. We'll see what happens next year when (hopefully) nobody is chasing LaMelo Ball rookies.

[Wade Mulroy]

A more accurate analogy would be that your kid makes some lemonade in his house, then sells the finished lemonade to the kid down the street, and that kid sells it to the public. Your kid sells it to the kid down the street for $0.25 and he could make a nice profit selling for $0.50, but everyone wants to buy it so he sells it for $1.25 instead. Your kid says, hey, why don't I just sell it myself for $1.25 and keep all the profits?

Whether we realize it happening around us or not, simple economics and human nature prevent your scenario from coming to fruition in a stable manner over the long-term.

Other than simply doing it for charity, what reason would an individual have to sell a product at a lower price than what the market is demanding?

If a discrepancy does exist (i.e. - Panini selling products at MSRP directly to the public) the market naturally corrects itself with arbitrageurs, who take advantage of the price discrepancy (i.e. - bots, flippers, retailers, etc.).

Simply put, assuming there are no restrictions on buying and selling, the market will ALWAYS correct itself in this manner. Even if the bots and retailers didn't exist, all of us would be happy to max out our available cash and credit to buy hot product at MSRP to sell at market prices to meet demand.

Not being accusatory by any means, but it's interesting that the folks who get upset at Panini for charging higher prices to increase their profits practice the same methods when buying and selling singles. All of us generally try to get fair market value for our cards... or maybe I'm just missing all the posts in the B/S/T section where users are happy to sell their singles under market value, because they're making a "good profit" and want to pass along some good-will and additional profits to the next guy.

[bigjbasketball]

Whether we realize it happening around us or not, simple economics and human nature prevent your scenario from coming to fruition in a stable manner over the long-term.

Other than simply doing it for charity, what reason would an individual have to sell a product at a lower price than what the market is demanding?

If a discrepancy does exist (i.e. - Panini selling products at MSRP directly to the public) the market naturally corrects itself with arbitrageurs, who take advantage of the price discrepancy (i.e. - bots, flippers, retailers, etc.).

Simply put, assuming there are no restrictions on buying and selling, the market will ALWAYS correct itself in this manner. Even if the bots and retailers didn't exist, all of us would be happy to max out our available cash and credit to buy hot product at MSRP to sell at market prices to meet demand.

Not being accusatory by any means, but it's interesting that the folks who get upset at Panini for charging higher prices to increase their profits practice the same methods when buying and selling singles. All of us generally try to get fair market value for our cards... or maybe I'm just missing all the posts in the B/S/T section where users are happy to sell their singles under market value, because they're making a "good profit" and want to pass along some good-will and additional profits to the next guy.

This all makes sense and I understand why Panini is doing this from an economics standpoint, I think the part that just frustrates me is the $150 MSRP that magically became $425 because Panini knew they can get away with it and people will pay it.

From the example I gave earlier, look at Nike. A couple weeks ago they released a pair of Jordan I's (Retro High 85 Varsity Red) for $200. They sold out instantly and they've been selling on StockX for roughly $500-$800 per pair since then, depending on the size. I'm sure Nike knew these would be a hit, but they sold them at their original MSRP and it's been hot on the secondary market after it sold out on release. If Panini really wants to be a direct-to-consumer business, this is how they should approach it. They just got mad they were leaving money on the table with the distributors marking things up for big bucks.

Maybe Panini should have put some sort of limit on how much the big outlets are allowed to charge for their product? I admittedly am not knowledgeable about B2B or B2C sales, so I don't know how something like that would actually work, but that seems like a better solution rather than essentially becoming a re-seller of their own product.

[Wade Mulroy]

This all makes sense and I understand why Panini is doing this from an economics standpoint, I think the part that just frustrates me is the $150 MSRP that magically became $425 because Panini knew they can get away with it and people will pay it.

From the example I gave earlier, look at Nike. A couple weeks ago they released a pair of Jordan I's (Retro High 85 Varsity Red) for $200. They sold out instantly and they've been selling on StockX for roughly $500-$800 per pair since then, depending on the size. I'm sure Nike knew these would be a hit, but they sold them at their original MSRP and it's been hot on the secondary market after it sold out on release. If Panini really wants to be a direct-to-consumer business, this is how they should approach it. They just got mad they were leaving money on the table with the distributors marking things up for big bucks.

Maybe Panini should have put some sort of limit on how much the big outlets are allowed to charge for their product? I admittedly am not knowledgeable about B2B or B2C sales, so I don't know how something like that would actually work, but that seems like a better solution rather than essentially becoming a re-seller of their own product.

Understood... admittedly, I’m really unfamiliar with Nike’s sales practices and have never been a shoe guy. Do they primarily sell their hot releases in-store, or is it more online?

I guess my point in my previous post, is there’s is always going to be someone or something that squeezes the profit out of a hot release. Even if you take out the distributors and somehow eliminate bots, the big fish are always going to be the ones that get the bulk of the product. There just isn’t a scenario (that I can see) where everyone gets an equal and fair opportunity to buy their share of product at SRP, without placing some extreme restrictions and/or mass produce so much that supply equals demand at the SRP equilibrium.

As I mentioned earlier, I’m small beans compared to most in this hobby, but if I knew I had first dibs on a hot basketball product like NT at SRP, I’d use every inch of available credit I have for it, simply because the SRP price is significantly lower than the market price.

[mrchipz]

I'm not condoning what Blowout is doing, I think that's just as terrible, and I also think it's terrible that the distributor that supplies my LCS jacks up all the prices so that the card shop owner is forced to sell boxes at inflated prices to his customers, like me. The whole system is rigged, and the customer wants the product, so as long as enough people are willing to pay the marked up prices, nothing will change.

I just think it's ridiculous that Panini comes out with an MSRP for THEIR OWN PRODUCT of $150, then proceeds to sell it directly at triple the price. I was just saying that looking at simple economics, it's cheaper to buy from BO. So if you must buy, then I'd buy from BO instead of Panini. If Panini wants to sell directly to the consumer and cut out the middle man, then that's fine, but don't mark up your own MSRP to insane levels.

EXACTLY this!
how the hell is the msrp $150 a box then the own damn manufacturer is charging $450 a box!
makes no sense. they are the manufacturer and should be selling it for $150.

i dont know where all these super rich people on this board come from that can afford to bust $400+ boxes of cards that you will be lucky to get back $50 from and take a 80-90% loss on average per.
Im sure everyone has no credit card debt and has savings and bills paid but something tells me the banks and credit card companies will be getting richer by the day getting all this interest from people.

[Rogue]

Why doesn't panini just have a captcha to prevent bots from buying?

[theleica]

Why doesn't panini just have a captcha to prevent bots from buying?

Bots can solve them...

[oldgoldy97]

EXACTLY this!
how the hell is the msrp $150 a box then the own damn manufacturer is charging $450 a box!
makes no sense. they are the manufacturer and should be selling it for $150.

i dont know where all these super rich people on this board come from that can afford to bust $400+ boxes of cards that you will be lucky to get back $50 from and take a 80-90% loss on average per.
Im sure everyone has no credit card debt and has savings and bills paid but something tells me the banks and credit card companies will be getting richer by the day getting all this interest from people.

So only resellers can make a killing?

[Bob Ross]

EXACTLY this!
how the hell is the msrp $150 a box then the own damn manufacturer is charging $450 a box!
makes no sense. they are the manufacturer and should be selling it for $150.

i dont know where all these super rich people on this board come from that can afford to bust $400+ boxes of cards that you will be lucky to get back $50 from and take a 80-90% loss on average per.
Im sure everyone has no credit card debt and has savings and bills paid but something tells me the banks and credit card companies will be getting richer by the day getting all this interest from people.

https://i.imgur.com/IhQy6Xp.gif

[mrchipz]

So only resellers can make a killing?

No body should be making a killing except the people that open the packs in my opinion.

panini should cut out distributors and only sell direct on their site and retail.
they should implement a bot free system where collectors have a chance and they should only sell to hobby shops at cost and have a deal where hobby shops cant sell the product for more then 10% above msrp.
the hobby shops then have 30 days to sell the product. whatever they dont sell must be returned to panini and then panini can then sell it on their site at msrp.

there are a lot of ways to bring normalcy back to the market.
but it NEEDS to start with panini.
its terrible what is going on right now and in the long term will have a severely negative effect on the entire market and collector base in time and that time is not too far away.

[Eighty]

You all wasting your time typing all this out. Either buy the boxes or wait for the singles to pop up on Ebay. Even those will be jacked up in price to cover losses on buying a hobby box. Choose your poison.

[mrchipz]

You all wasting your time typing all this out. Either buy the boxes or wait for the singles to pop up on Ebay. Even those will be jacked up in price to cover losses on buying a hobby box. Choose your poison.

I used to think that as well before prizm came out when i seen the price of it this year.
But its not the case.
i figured to offset the high cost of the wax prices the cards would be selling for a ton, but they are not.
there are so many rookies i couldnt give away this year.
all everyone is buying is zion and ja and even then you are losing.

lets say you buy a hobby box of optic for $475.
which means you would have to sell the cards for 10% more to offset the 10% ebay fees taking your break even number about $525
even if you got lucky and hit both ja and zion the ja sells for $20 and zion sells for $50.
now lets say you got extremely lucky and hit a ja silver and sold it for $200
that only makes back $270 for you.
maybe you hit a few other rookies and holos and get back $10-$20 for them total you are still down a ton!
hell the zion silver only sells for $550-$600 so even if you hit one of those you would barely be breaking even after fees and everything.
and thats with hitting zion and ja base and a ja silver.

one of 2 things needs to happen for this trend to continue.

1, the box prices need to come way down.
2, the card single prices need to go way up.
i really thought singles would be selling way better but really good rookies and top picks like herro, hacimura , barret and such sell for barley nothing.
there all $2-$3 cards each.

its hit a super rare card of zion or ja to make money or lose.
and thats a gamble i dont think many are gonna want to take over and over.
so some type of correction needs to happen.

[Cujobyte]

If Panini sold it for a $100 all these cockroaches would be reselling it on ebay for $400 anyway just like they do with their garbage retail.

huh?? Garbage retail?? Optic Retail has 1/1's and /10 golds. Love the Optic retail more than the hobby I've opened.

[ninjacookies]

Ya'll may have a case.


Just have to convince Congress that sports cards are essential goods and should technically be classified as a drug. Would subject Panini to the Freedom From Price Gouging Act.


Get on it.

[Wade Mulroy]

No body should be making a killing except the people that open the packs in my opinion.

panini should cut out distributors and only sell direct on their site and retail.
they should implement a bot free system where collectors have a chance and they should only sell to hobby shops at cost and have a deal where hobby shops cant sell the product for more then 10% above msrp.
the hobby shops then have 30 days to sell the product. whatever they dont sell must be returned to panini and then panini can then sell it on their site at msrp.

there are a lot of ways to bring normalcy back to the market.
but it NEEDS to start with panini.
its terrible what is going on right now and in the long term will have a severely negative effect on the entire market and collector base in time and that time is not too far away.

If you think people are frustrated by people “hoarding” wax now, under the system you propose, it would be even worse.

How is a hobby shop supposed to confirm or deny how much of a product they sold? What’s stopping them from ordering tons of a hot product from Panini, sticking 90% of it in a back room, and making a couple boxes available at the mandated prices? What’s stopping nefarious hobby shop owners from collaborating with buddies to “buy out” all their product to prove sales to Panini, only to sell it higher on the secondary market?

I really appreciate the desire and effort to make things more affordable, but you’re just replacing one boogeyman with another.

Again, I mentioned this a couple times, but there will always be arbitrage in the market if price is below the equilibrium point of supply and demand. Placing trade restrictions definitely changes this dynamic, but is that what collectors really want? Prices may be tough to swallow right now, but I would much rather have a free market system as opposed to a faceless entity dictating how I collect, purchase, sell, and enjoy the hobby; knowing full well their own interests are going to come way before mine.

[bigjbasketball]

Understood... admittedly, I’m really unfamiliar with Nike’s sales practices and have never been a shoe guy. Do they primarily sell their hot releases in-store, or is it more online?

I guess my point in my previous post, is there’s is always going to be someone or something that squeezes the profit out of a hot release. Even if you take out the distributors and somehow eliminate bots, the big fish are always going to be the ones that get the bulk of the product. There just isn’t a scenario (that I can see) where everyone gets an equal and fair opportunity to buy their share of product at SRP, without placing some extreme restrictions and/or mass produce so much that supply equals demand at the SRP equilibrium.

As I mentioned earlier, I’m small beans compared to most in this hobby, but if I knew I had first dibs on a hot basketball product like NT at SRP, I’d use every inch of available credit I have for it, simply because the SRP price is significantly lower than the market price.

You’re right, I agree with all this. I’m not really expecting anything to change, just venting. And in the end, I’m a collector and I have fun busting open boxes, I just won’t be able to open as much as I used to due to the prices right now. Hopefully next year it will come back down to earth at least a little bit. Hopefully I can get at least one box of Select at a semi-reasonable price just to try it out. At this point, it might sound crazy but anything under $400 would be semi-reasonable.

Nike is all over the place, so they’re probably not the best comparison here. They have their own app (SNKRS) where you can buy directly, you can buy in-store, and they also have tons of authorized retailers (SNS, END Clothing, etc.) that hold raffles for the big releases, so there are a lot of ways to get the sneakers at SRP. However, even with all those options, it’s still very easy to strike out at all of them for the most sought-after releases, and then you’re forced to pay re-sell if you really want them.

[hermanotarjeta]

I used to think that as well before prizm came out when i seen the price of it this year.
But its not the case.
i figured to offset the high cost of the wax prices the cards would be selling for a ton, but they are not.
there are so many rookies i couldnt give away this year.
all everyone is buying is zion and ja and even then you are losing.

lets say you buy a hobby box of optic for $475.
which means you would have to sell the cards for 10% more to offset the 10% ebay fees taking your break even number about $525
even if you got lucky and hit both ja and zion the ja sells for $20 and zion sells for $50.
now lets say you got extremely lucky and hit a ja silver and sold it for $200
that only makes back $270 for you.
maybe you hit a few other rookies and holos and get back $10-$20 for them total you are still down a ton!
hell the zion silver only sells for $550-$600 so even if you hit one of those you would barely be breaking even after fees and everything.
and thats with hitting zion and ja base and a ja silver.

one of 2 things needs to happen for this trend to continue.

1, the box prices need to come way down.
2, the card single prices need to go way up.
i really thought singles would be selling way better but really good rookies and top picks like herro, hacimura , barret and such sell for barley nothing.
there all $2-$3 cards each.

its hit a super rare card of zion or ja to make money or lose.
and thats a gamble i dont think many are gonna want to take over and over.
so some type of correction needs to happen.

I used to think “by the box” as well, but now the breaker argument for driving up prices makes sense now.

A breaker can sell 30 $200 slots for a 30 team random, which thus commands a case price of $6000. Us individual box breakers get hurt in the process because you essentially have to pay the breaker rate to open boxes, ie you are committed to all 30 teams in a single box break. Thus as an individual box opener, you cannot win.

Degenerate gambler guy will pay $200 all day/all night for the 1/30 chance of hitting the pelicans.

Degenerate gambler guy thinks differently than individual collector box opener.

The individual guy fears losing $400 by opening one box of optic hobby.

Degenerate gambler guy doesn’t think twice about spending $200/time for a 1/30 chance to get the pelicans, cause $200 is nothing when you have the chance of hitting a $150,000 card.

That is our hobby mentality today.

Until degenerate gambler guy loses his house, family and car, these insane wax prices will persist.

[ninjacookies]

That's always been the hobby mentality.

The difference is, the stakes have been raised tremendously, but the overall ROI is probably the same or fairly close if you were able to somehow crunch the overall numbers.

Anyone who rips wax or participates in GB's and expects to come close to breaking even in the longrun....I got bad news for ya.


I fondly remember getting about 15 cents on the dollar returns back on my 5 case Immaculate GB back in 2013. Fun times. AD/Kyrie obviously ruined the hobby.

[mrchipz]

That's always been the hobby mentality.

The difference is, the stakes have been raised tremendously, but the overall ROI is probably the same or fairly close if you were able to somehow crunch the overall numbers.

Anyone who rips wax or participates in GB's and expects to come close to breaking even in the longrun....I got bad news for ya.


I fondly remember getting about 15 cents on the dollar returns back on my 5 case Immaculate GB back in 2013. Fun times. AD/Kyrie obviously ruined the hobby.

Agree with you.
last year and years before you buy a box of select for $130-$150 and hit $50 worth of cards it sucked but it wasnt that bad.
now you buy a box of select for $450 and hit the same $50 worth of cards its a massive hit.
only so many times the newbies and ignorant people can do this until they go broke and leave the hobby.
then there is massive supply with little demand.
the correction will be coming soon in the next year or 2.
wax prices cannot stay this high if the singles prices dont rise as well.
something has got to give.

[mrchipz]

I used to think “by the box” as well, but now the breaker argument for driving up prices makes sense now.

A breaker can sell 30 $200 slots for a 30 team random, which thus commands a case price of $6000. Us individual box breakers get hurt in the process because you essentially have to pay the breaker rate to open boxes, ie you are committed to all 30 teams in a single box break. Thus as an individual box opener, you cannot win.

Degenerate gambler guy will pay $200 all day/all night for the 1/30 chance of hitting the pelicans.

Degenerate gambler guy thinks differently than individual collector box opener.

The individual guy fears losing $400 by opening one box of optic hobby.

Degenerate gambler guy doesn’t think twice about spending $200/time for a 1/30 chance to get the pelicans, cause $200 is nothing when you have the chance of hitting a $150,000 card.

That is our hobby mentality today.

Until degenerate gambler guy loses his house, family and car, these insane wax prices will persist.


i seriously think this is going to happen very very soon.
i have been in this hobby for almost 30 years and have seen the junk wax era , the comic book overproduction 90s and seen it all.
there is going to be a lot of people in some issues soon paying these prices.
like i said if the singles were selling for more to justify it then so be it.
but its just like it has always been people buy asap and scan and sell that same day.
market gets flooded and its a race to the bottom and next thing you know you have tons of rookies you cant sell for $1 each and you just lost 90% on a box.
if people werent so desperate to try to recoup instantly and sell everything for pennies on the dollar to repay some of that credit card debt then maybe prices could increase on singles.

[ninjacookies]

Agree with you.
last year and years before you buy a box of select for $130-$150 and hit $50 worth of cards it sucked but it wasnt that bad.
now you buy a box of select for $450 and hit the same $50 worth of cards its a massive hit.
only so many times the newbies and ignorant people can do this until they go broke and leave the hobby.
then there is massive supply with little demand.
the correction will be coming soon in the next year or 2.
wax prices cannot stay this high if the singles prices dont rise as well.
something has got to give.



It is indeed a crazy time.


However, I'm trying to figure out when group breaking was ever viewed as a legit financial investment vehicle. I always thought it was more a straight up lottery. You recovering nearly half your buy in was a gift, not a given.

First, you're not assured to walk away with product...second, some formats subject your take to randomizers. I enter a GB and I expect to come away empty handed, save for some rather worthless base cards if it's a product like Chrome or Prizm.

Speaking of...this is the first year where base cards have seemingly taken off like a bat out of hell. Across the board. So while the buy in for breaks this year may seem extraordinarily high, this is the first time where a base card of a prospect could net you over a hundred dollars and close to 4 digits graded.


Realistically, the fear mongering should only last for a couple more months. Could Panini/distributors try the same model next year? Perhaps...but it's probably not going to result in many sales. I don't know of too many people that are going to be jumping hurdles to secure a lion's share of James Wiseman/ Lamello mojo.

It's not the end of the world or hobby as we know it. Every market has cycles.

[Diesel55]

I was thinking of spending $450 of buying Hobby Select Basketball but I my target restocks some optic basketball last night. I was able to get 5 Mega and 18 Cellos, total of about the same price of a box of Select. Retail win vs hobby on this one I think.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

[marinocollector]

Wow. A lot of the fear mongering and craziness in this thread is totally baseless. Its been happening for years.
Collectors are the ones who cause these prices to go up. You want a big hit? You have to pay for it. No more are the days of getting a $5000 card from a $100 box. The products are too limited, there's too much demand.

As someone who wholesales, none of my product in my warehouse can be purchased by my customer base at a lower price direct from the manufacturer. So if a manufacturer sells product directly to my customer base, I don't carry their product. No reason for me to be in competition with my supplier. The only exceptions I have are when a manufacturer provides a discount to me so sharp that I can make my margins and provide the product at or less than what the manufacturer direct to consumer cost is. Not only is Panini going to make more money selling boxes at a higher price, but it also is treating the wholesaler who bought their product to sell to the consumer fairly.
This is how the world is going to work as we get smaller and shipping gets easier. Manufacturers will cut out the middle man and can fluctuate their pricing rapidly to consumer demands. Panini spent all their money buying up Donruss/Playoff and getting all these exclusive contracts, creating in demand products, and creating a way to get consumers to flock to their website. Why should they not capitalize on their efforts?

[Eighty5Hundo]

[/B]

....if people weren't so desperate to try to recoup instantly and sell everything for pennies on the dollar to repay some of that credit card debt then maybe prices could increase on singles.


Couldn't agree with this more. Sellers need to be patient, if you need to flip everything you buy in a 30 day window you are overextended.

[E B]

I guess i don't get it. BO was selling pre orders for $5400 case. If you buy 12 direct from Panini at $425 that's $5100. It's still cheaper.

The current price is close enough to the market you cant flip and make a profit. There are transactions costs, Ebay and now sales tax.

[E B]

Wow. A lot of the fear mongering and craziness in this thread is totally baseless. Its been happening for years.
Collectors are the ones who cause these prices to go up. You want a big hit? You have to pay for it. No more are the days of getting a $5000 card from a $100 box. The products are too limited, there's too much demand.

As someone who wholesales, none of my product in my warehouse can be purchased by my customer base at a lower price direct from the manufacturer. So if a manufacturer sells product directly to my customer base, I don't carry their product. No reason for me to be in competition with my supplier.

As a matter of fairness I do not believe retailers should sell items below market. I'd rather even Target charges market value so I'd have the option of buying cards there as opposed to being shut out. Makes no sense for retailers to put items on the shelf for much less than they're worth

[E B]

Right, if they sold it on the site for $100 bots would grab it immediately and put it on the bay for $400. It's not like we'd have a shot at getting it if they put it on at MSRP. Panini needs a membership club or something.

Last thought on this--Panini selling at market is a good thing which could lead to lower prices. As long as Panini has stock online resellers cant increase the price and if inventory is stagnant then prices will fall to a true market value.

[oldschooldude]

EXACTLY this!
how the hell is the msrp $150 a box then the own damn manufacturer is charging $450 a box!
makes no sense. they are the manufacturer and should be selling it for $150.

i dont know where all these super rich people on this board come from that can afford to bust $400+ boxes of cards that you will be lucky to get back $50 from and take a 80-90% loss on average per.
Im sure everyone has no credit card debt and has savings and bills paid but something tells me the banks and credit card companies will be getting richer by the day getting all this interest from people.

Using a credit card to fund any type of sports card purchase is the one of the most financially irresponsible things someone can do. If you can't pay cash for it, you can't afford it imo.

[allabtsprt]

All this jibber jabber is useless at this point and I will say, that up until recently, I was a part of it. Remember, actions speak louder than words. The answer to all of this is very simple: DON'T BUY THE PRODUCT! Hit them in their pocketbooks. For those that are standing up for the big manufacturers and distributors, that's fine and dandy as it says a lot about your character. There are things such as ethics, morals and credibility, and once you begin to lose those, the smart people will go elsewhere. Greed will either be their down fall or make them go back to what got them here in the first place. Everyone just needs to ride this out as it won't last forever. I don't know about the majority, but I can certainly live without buying Panini products because I am a true collector and could care less what a piece of cardboard is worth as it has no intrinsic value. I do it because it is my hobby! We all need to stop being their puppets and quit following the sheep. Just look at what greed is doing in our world. You can no longer trust the grading companies, altering and trimming are a huge problem as is shilling, sky high prices and over production are only growing, big names and auction houses have been outed, people have been trained to pay artificially inflated prices for cards that will be worth a fraction of what they paid for them with the exception of a few truly rare cards and we can't even trust the card companies to use real game used items any longer. Yet, with all of this going on, the hobby seems to be thriving. Wake up people! Don't be a part of the problem, be the solution.

[blackbears86]

All this jibber jabber is useless at this point and I will say, that up until recently, I was a part of it. Remember, actions speak louder than words. The answer to all of this is very simple: DON'T BUY THE PRODUCT! Hit them in their pocketbooks. For those that are standing up for the big manufacturers and distributors, that's fine and dandy as it says a lot about your character. There are things such as ethics, morals and credibility, and once you begin to lose those, the smart people will go elsewhere. Greed will either be their down fall or make them go back to what got them here in the first place. Everyone just needs to ride this out as it won't last forever. I don't know about the majority, but I can certainly live without buying Panini products because I am a true collector and could care less what a piece of cardboard is worth as it has no intrinsic value. I do it because it is my hobby! We all need to stop being their puppets and quit following the sheep. Just look at what greed is doing in our world. You can no longer trust the grading companies, altering and trimming are a huge problem as is shilling, sky high prices and over production are only growing, big names and auction houses have been outed, people have been trained to pay artificially inflated prices for cards that will be worth a fraction of what they paid for them with the exception of a few truly rare cards and we can't even trust the card companies to use real game used items any longer. Yet, with all of this going on, the hobby seems to be thriving. Wake up people! Don't be a part of the problem, be the solution.




That's a long-winded paragraph there, but I understand what you are saying.



1.don't buy if you can't afford it.
2.switch your buying habits to singles: let someone else take the kick to the nuts when they open a $400 box of cards and get back $50 in value.
3.don't be a sucker to inflated group break prices because you are addicted.
4. pick your poison: If you feel like you must buy hobby at these inflated prices, use common sense: it will likely end in a bloodbath.

[notoriousrmb]

Just like in the rest of life, people get outraged when something hits their own ability to make a buck.

People who can't buy FOTL product because of bots are mad THEY aren't able to flip cheap product for a buck.

Bot users get mad when Panini charges the same price they were so THEY can't flip.

Lower budget buyers get mad when THEY can't find retail boxes to flip.

Not sure why we even have these threads, it's just people complaining when they lose their way to flip product.

[marinocollector]

Just like in the rest of life, people get outraged when something hits their own ability to make a buck.

People who can't buy FOTL product because of bots are mad THEY aren't able to flip cheap product for a buck.

Bot users get mad when Panini charges the same price they were so THEY can't flip.

Lower budget buyers get mad when THEY can't find retail boxes to flip.

Not sure why we even have these threads, it's just people complaining when they lose their way to flip product.

Adults like to complain. They always have. They've always ruined this hobby. Even in the think tanks in the 90s. They always said kids dont want this crap. Stop making Metal. Stop making cards for kids. They're not worth anything. Now? Those are the most valuable cards.

All you adults complaining about the hobby need to realize, you forgot what a hobby is.

[Giantrobot]

Or, reasonable sane collectors complain when boxes are priced 3x what they should sell for, and they won’t pay those prices because it is usually throwing money away. Sheep will just follow along and pay whatever, while the companies laugh all the way to the bank.

[marinocollector]

Or, reasonable sane collectors complain when boxes are priced 3x what they should sell for, and they won’t pay those prices because it is usually throwing money away. Sheep will just follow along and pay whatever, while the companies laugh all the way to the bank.
I fail to understand why you have to call someone a sheep for wanting to spend their money the way they want to.
Also, I would say no reasonable or sane person would say "something is worth 1/3 of the market rate," when all reality points to the item selling for the full amount.
Maybe you fail to see the value and you feel the value should be less, but the reality is, the market dictates otherwise. If this product was worth 1/3 of the selling price, the market will correct itself. Unfortunately, if that were to happen, the product will have even lower resale value in singles, and one would assume you still would feel like the product is 3x too much.
Busting wax is always a losing proposition. The house always wins, and right now, Panini is winning. Same thing has always happened with wax that has a lot of demand and potential value.

[Digitaljordan]

The breaker 1 of 1 is charging $600 for one box breaks!

Why do people just not do simple math and avoid this kind of scam? Do they just see $20 per team and throw money away like scratch tickets?

[brothertona]

The breaker 1 of 1 is charging $600 for one box breaks!



Why do people just not do simple math and avoid this kind of scam? Do they just see $20 per team and throw money away like scratch tickets?



Exactly that, I saw that and was like yep avoiding that.


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[ShaneFalco]

The breaker 1 of 1 is charging $600 for one box breaks!

Why do people just not do simple math and avoid this kind of scam? Do they just see $20 per team and throw money away like scratch tickets?

I've been watching their breaks to get some eyes on hobby openings. Damn, some of these boxes are rough!!! Most have $50-$125 return, which is understandable for MSRP. But at 3x mark up, absolute bloodbath!

[dasiegel]

wait wait wait...

people think this WONT sell out?

cant even find Donruss Retail, but this wont sell?

:cry:

thisssss

[packfan15412]

Site is already broken... cant buy any lol

[TigerPower]

Seriously??? At $425 plus tax I can’t even get in!!!

[Bob Ross]

https://i.imgur.com/yY4cr9w.gif

[mrdallas]

I could buy these at 425 more like 450 after taxes. But I like to open boxes so I am saving my money. Had 5 in my cart but I cant hit the purchase button. AND wont

[DUCKanay]

Sold Out, had em in my cart, but let it linger.

[Diesel55]

You can get em on BO for 450 and $10 off with code, I dont think they charge taxes the last time I bought something from them. I guess its cheaper if they don't charges tax.

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[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

How do we know on stuff priced this high, that even the bot boys won't touch to flip, that Panini isn't manipulating things. They could be selling so few boxes that it looks like demand is through the roof, so they can set up to sell their other stuff for even higher. I want to see all the people buying Select at 400+ a box

[TheTruth17]

The breaker 1 of 1 is charging $600 for one box breaks!

Why do people just not do simple math and avoid this kind of scam? Do they just see $20 per team and throw money away like scratch tickets?

Maybe they bought the boxes from Blowout for $450.... $600 total prior to paypal fees, supplies, shipping, etc... a little margin for profit? Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I would like to see what somebody in the group breaking section of this Forum would be charging since they Have to Buy the product from Blowout to do so.

[senorlaverga]

Haha so I’m not the only guy who had five sitting in his cart but JUST COULDNT DO IT.

[Onepocketj]

https://i.imgur.com/yY4cr9w.gif

Lol. I stared at this gif for about a minute before I realized I was in a trance.

[packfan15412]

I don't get why people are complaining about pricing... Panini is being smart... why miss out on $300 profit? We can either buy them at 425 from Panini or buy them for 425 from some Guy who has bots set to buy 100 of these and sell them for 425. At the end of the day this is a pretty expensive hobby that keeps growing... if you can't afford the game then don't play it. This is the same as those people who sit on facebook and whine about other's prices... if you don't like it move on.. pretty simple.

[blackbears86]

https://i.imgur.com/yY4cr9w.gif



Best popcorn GIF ever.

absolutely mesmerizing.

[Rogue]

Bots can solve them...

Oh okay, well I guess it'll never be solved.

[kobemagee29]

I don't get why people are complaining about pricing... Panini is being smart... why miss out on $300 profit? We can either buy them at 425 from Panini or buy them for 425 from some Guy who has bots set to buy 100 of these and sell them for 425. At the end of the day this is a pretty expensive hobby that keeps growing... if you can't afford the game then don't play it. This is the same as those people who sit on facebook and whine about other's prices... if you don't like it move on.. pretty simple.

Think your wrong, just my opinion. I don't believe this hobby is growing, I believe this hobby, especially the basketball side, has gone to crap

[mwheeler27]

Think your wrong, just my opinion. I don't believe this hobby is growing, I believe this hobby, especially the basketball side, has gone to crap

Blasphemy!

[mc1]

Just like in the rest of life, people get outraged when something hits their own ability to make a buck.

People who can't buy FOTL product because of bots are mad THEY aren't able to flip cheap product for a buck.

Bot users get mad when Panini charges the same price they were so THEY can't flip.

Lower budget buyers get mad when THEY can't find retail boxes to flip.

Not sure why we even have these threads, it's just people complaining when they lose their way to flip product.

Well don’t you have it all figured out? Such a smart cookie. None of use here have ever busted boxes. None of us here have ever put together base sets or inserts sets. None of us here have ever collected or hoarded certain cards.

Nope, we must all be flippers and investors.:cool:

[yiguiri2002]

Based on their preview, there are only 3 numbered cards per box. Ouch.

[DUCKanay]

Haha so I’m not the only guy who had five sitting in his cart but JUST COULDNT DO IT.

Yup, saw the $2.3K and I was like :(

[bigjbasketball]

Why did anyone here even attempt to buy these directly from Panini? You can get them cheaper on BO right now and there are boxes in stock.

[senorlaverga]

Why did anyone even attempt to buy these?.

Fixed it

[KhalDrogo]

Based on their preview, there are only 3 numbered cards per box. Ouch.
But 5-6 Silvers per box!

[yiguiri2002]

But 5-6 Silvers per box!

I'm shocked at how high silvers are going. Both Zion and Ja's silvers are going for more than 50% of their Prizm and Optic Silvers.

I'm gonna try to pick up a few Select Silvers if that becomes the norm. For other past rookies, it's normally 20 to 30%.

[Giantrobot]

I'm shocked at how high silvers are going. Both Zion and Ja's silvers are going for more than 50% of their Prizm and Optic Silvers.

I'm gonna try to pick up a few Select Silvers if that becomes the norm. For other past rookies, it's normally 20 to 30%.

They should go for more than that IMO, even with there being 3 versions. Select as a set just completely destroys both Prizm and Optic in many ways.

[yiguiri2002]

They should go for more than that IMO, even with there being 3 versions. Select as a set just completely destroys both Prizm and Optic in many ways.

Having 3 versions of the RC kills them. I'll be more than happy if it settles at above 50%, that could boost older silver Selects.

[Giantrobot]

Having 3 versions of the RC kills them. I'll be more than happy if it settles at above 50%, that could boost older silver Selects.

I’d say being hobby-only combats that somewhat, but yeah, even if the easiest Concourse Zion is fetching $75-100, that is extremely solid for Select.

[Digitaljordan]

Maybe they bought the boxes from Blowout for $450.... $600 total prior to paypal fees, supplies, shipping, etc... a little margin for profit? Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I would like to see what somebody in the group breaking section of this Forum would be charging since they Have to Buy the product from Blowout to do so.


Well considering what other breakers are charging for 1/2 case RT his price is an absolute joke as always.

[TheTruth17]

Well considering what other breakers are charging for 1/2 case RT his price is an absolute joke as always.

I wouldn't know, I don't follow this breaker's website or facebook etc.... I was just playing Devil's advocate here. I always say though, in the end.... nobody is putting a gun to these people's heads and forcing them to join the breaks. For whatever reason they choose to join this particular breaker's offering.

[thelistofjustin]

If only they can take care of the bots buying all the blasters from Walmart.

[packfan15412]

I think you're dead wrong... I believe the hobby is growing because of these new young stars like Luka, Zion, Trae Young, Morant etc... everyone wants to get in on them because of what cards have become... a Huge Investment piece. The return rate in cards right now are better than stocks etc. How often do you get a $500 jump in return in 4 weeks?

Think your wrong, just my opinion. I don't believe this hobby is growing, I believe this hobby, especially the basketball side, has gone to crap

[packfan15412]

At this point what are people thinking about the release price of this stuff? Seems like everyone likes the product

[Giantrobot]

At this point what are people thinking about the release price of this stuff? Seems like everyone likes the product

$400 is a bit much, but compared to Prizm and Optic hobby it is a far better rip imo.

[Supercomputers]

$400 is a bit much, but compared to Prizm and Optic hobby it is a far better rip imo.

I was not a fan at first but being hobby only and whats coming out looks like its going to do real well. Good be a nice sleeper product for the year.

[packfan15412]

I bought 2 boxes and can't decide if I'll hold them or Rip them... not sure how much they can go up in prices!

I was not a fan at first but being hobby only and whats coming out looks like its going to do real well. Good be a nice sleeper product for the year.

[chazzzbotttt]

Select hobby is by far the most fun rip of the year IMO, but at $450 I can get two retail boxes of Prizm. 48 packs vs 12...its gonna be much less fun, but a ton more cards and in terms of making your money back at the moment all you need to do is pull a base Zion in each box which has been pretty standard in retail boxes.

If you have the cash to just have the most fun rip get some Select!

[Diesel55]

Select hobby is by far the most fun rip of the year IMO, but at $450 I can get two retail boxes of Prizm. 48 packs vs 12...its gonna be much less fun, but a ton more cards and in terms of making your money back at the moment all you need to do is pull a base Zion in each box which has been pretty standard in retail boxes.

If you have the cash to just have the most fun rip get some Select!True, I got 5 mega and 18 cellos from target for about the same price.

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[Chris P]

I thought about biting the bullet and trying a couple boxes but I just can't do it. Not for $450. I was able to buy a Cosmic Parallel Zion Rookie and a Zion Blue Parallel Crown Royale Rookie, and a Luka Donruss Yellow and Green Laser and still have money left over over two boxes of Select.

[chazzzbotttt]

True, I got 5 mega and 18 cellos from target for about the same price.

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Exactly. If you’re simply Zion hunting or looking to make money, Select is equal to playing an expensive slot machine with each pack you open. Can be fun as hell and lots of shiny colors etc, but the odds are stacked against you so you gotta go into that break looking to have some fun.

If you want value, look just about anywhere else..

[theleica]

Another slight of hand by Panini.

We all though Panini sold out of Select....

It's back up for sale on Panini if anyone wants some...

[WhacksPacks]

I just saw that. Still 2X more than I'm willing to pay. SO none for me today.
424.99 will get you some mighty fine singles

[guru]

still sitting on the site for sale. Has been all day.

[fdjizm]

Grab it up! lol

[Boa]

Grab it up! lol

With a side of fast break

[beavers]

Interesting to see this back up. Wonder what the heck happened. This seems to be against their own dutch auction policy. The price should technically be falling to the floor instead of being stopped.

[TheTruth17]

Maybe a botboi had to file a credit card chargeback when they realized the flip wasnt profitable. Now Panini has more product left to sell... or maybe an employee stumbled upon a couple sealed cases that were misplaced in the janitor closet.

[theleica]

Maybe a botboi had to file a credit card chargeback when they realized the flip wasnt profitable. Now Panini has more product left to sell... or maybe an employee stumbled upon a couple sealed cases that were misplaced in the janitor closet.



Or maybe Panini didn’t really originally sell out and wanted to give the impression this was a “hot” product right before Impeccable FOTL to increase FOMO.


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[beavers]

Maybe a botboi had to file a credit card chargeback when they realized the flip wasnt profitable. Now Panini has more product left to sell... or maybe an employee stumbled upon a couple sealed cases that were misplaced in the janitor closet.

They are probably opening themselves up to more returns and chargebacks by not following their own policy on dutch auctions. They should have re-announced them and started the clock and price drops again from where it left off. Holding the price and continuing to sell them there is unethical and probably wouldn't pass scrutiny if someone made a fuss.

[bravesfan#1]

Interesting to see this back up. Wonder what the heck happened. This seems to be against their own dutch auction policy. The price should technically be falling to the floor instead of being stopped.

What floor? Hobby Select was never Dutch auction, it was always priced at $424.99. FOTL Select was sold at Dutch auction and it hit $437.50 before selling out.

[avicke]

They are probably opening themselves up to more returns and chargebacks by not following their own policy on dutch auctions. They should have re-announced them and started the clock and price drops again from where it left off. Holding the price and continuing to sell them there is unethical and probably wouldn't pass scrutiny if someone made a fuss.

These aren't the FOTL dutch auction boxes. Just regular Hobby.

If these were FOTL - even at this price, would be sold out fast.

[beavers]

Gotcha, I was confused as per usual

[Bob Ross]

Panini <

[Diesel55]

Anybody got a coupon code?

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[AlexHunter]

That it won't sell out? Simple math.

Panini - $425 + 26.99 tax = $451.99

Blowout - $450 a box + $0 tax = $450 - $10 promotion = $440

I know I’m late to the game here. But if I was gonna pay those prices for a select box- I would buy it from panini. Cuz for me it doesn’t cost $451.99, it costs $425

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

How do we know on stuff priced this high, that even the bot boys won't touch to flip, that Panini isn't manipulating things. They could be selling so few boxes that it looks like demand is through the roof, so they can set up to sell their other stuff for even higher. I want to see all the people buying Select at 400+ a box

Or maybe Panini didn’t really originally sell out and wanted to give the impression this was a “hot” product right before Impeccable FOTL to increase FOMO.


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Agreed....

[riceoroni]

https://blog.paniniamerica.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/19-20SelectBK_PIS_HOBBYHYBRID.pdf

panini really milking it.

[ninjacookies]

Black disco should have been a february release, imo.

[coltssteve]

This is pure genius by Panini. They are clearly playing the Gary Vee "investor/flipper" crowd for all their dollars. Unopened Panini basketball products are priced for the "investor/flipper" who has no intention of opening the product. Clearly, these renters of products are making a killing, just like a ticket scalper. By dropping additional boxes, they are trying to break the re-sale "investor/flipper" market in the near term, or at least limit the extreme resale value.

I think the bigger question is who is really driving prices higher? Clearly people with deep pockets have got to be buying all these singles and unopened product? Is it Gary Vee and his basketball player friends?

If this is the truth, they should take some time to learn about what happens when you corner a market in something. Ask the Hunt brothers how that corner of Silver went in 1980.

[Bob Ross]

Black disco should have been a february release, imo.

https://i.imgur.com/WXdgdu1.gif

[Cavaliercards]

https://blog.paniniamerica.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/19-20SelectBK_PIS_HOBBYHYBRID.pdf

panini really milking it.

NBA Gotta make their money!

[fdjizm]

Or maybe Panini didn’t really originally sell out and wanted to give the impression this was a “hot” product right before Impeccable FOTL to increase FOMO.


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Blackguythinkingface.gif

I know the question everyone is asking, WHEN WILL WE GET MORE SPARKLES!

[IndySportsCards]

I don't like Basketball enough to spend $450 on a $100 box

[Diesel55]

I don't like Basketball enough to spend $450 on a $100 boxNext year prices should go back to norm.

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[eastbayak]

Next year prices should go back to norm.

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It’ll go down but don’t expect it to be like 2017-18 or before.

With new/more demand, prices will definitely be more inflated than the norm.

[Diesel55]

It’ll go down but don’t expect it to be like 2017-18 or before.



With new/more demand, prices will definitely be more inflated than the norm.I guess Somewhere in the middle and reasonable

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[eastbayak]

I guess Somewhere in the middle and reasonable

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Hahaha anywhere not like 2017-18 (or before) is unreasonable. I’ll still buy some to rip and/or flip though, sadly.

[Diesel55]

Hahaha anywhere not like 2017-18 (or before) is unreasonable. I’ll still buy some to rip and/or flip though, sadly.I'm predicting $275 for a hobby box of prizm, hoops will be same

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[trmpetyjo]

Can't tell if the stuff is legit loaded or not. Layton opened a case yesterday with 2 Black 1/1, 5 Gold /10, 2 Green/5, and a lot of red and blue. Every box in the case had something.

Interesting to hear the Panini rep in the background at one point tell Layton that he was told "the case was padded" for the break.

Steph Curry black in the first pack.

Just reaffirms what I already thought was going on. Panini does know what is in the cases and they can easily load up cases for certain breakers if they want.

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It was a Hybrid case

[yaoming]

Can't tell if the stuff is legit loaded or not. Layton opened a case yesterday with 2 Black 1/1, 5 Gold /10, 2 Green/5, and a lot of red and blue. Every box in the case had something.

Interesting to hear the Panini rep in the background at one point tell Layton that he was told "the case was padded" for the break.

Steph Curry black in the first pack.

Just reaffirms what I already thought was going on. Panini does know what is in the cases and they can easily load up cases for certain breakers if they want.

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It was a Hybrid case



Wow that s disgraceful and disgusting


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[E B]

Wow that s disgraceful and disgusting


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This makes me never want to buy a card again from Panini.

[trmpetyjo]

This makes me never want to buy a card again from Panini.Yeah, I was shocked when I heard him say that. Layton just ignores him too, gets all quite when the rep says it, lol

You know he must have been thinking. "This guy's gonna cause a big problem if he won't shut up and stop being so chatty"

Later on in video the lady next to him makes a comment as well about how Hybrid Select only cost them 43 cents more per pack and once again he gets real quite, gives her a look like "would you not talk about costs during a loaded case break, how are we gonna charge 50% per spot on this stuff now when you just told everyone it only cost a couple bucks more per box"

The video is on youtube if you're interested. Would love to see Panini have to deal with some questions about it, or at least get their list of "special breakers" so I know where to buy spots in breaks

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[pharmboymatt]

Yeah, I was shocked when I heard him say that. Layton just ignores him too, gets all quite when the rep says it, lol

You know he must have been thinking. "This guy's gonna cause a big problem if he won't shut up and stop being so chatty"

Later on in video the lady next to him makes a comment as well about how Hybrid Select only cost them 43 cents more per pack and once again he gets real quite, gives her a look like "would you not talk about costs during a loaded case break, how are we gonna charge 50% per spot on this stuff now when you just told everyone it only cost a couple bucks more per box"

The video is on youtube if you're interested. Would love to see Panini have to deal with some questions about it, or at least get their list of "special breakers" so I know where to buy spots in breaks

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Can you please post link to this video so I don't have to see any more of the Laytons than absolutely necessary? Thanks.

[trmpetyjo]

Can you please post link to this video so I don't have to see any more of the Laytons than absolutely necessary? Thanks.https://youtu.be/TiuRGUUSaOQ


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[avicke]

It was fairly obvious sarcastic in tone. I think they, and we know that this stuff should sell out no problem. It seems way more fun than Optic fast break. Even without the guaranteed auto.

[trmpetyjo]

I went back and listened to it again. I can definitely see how I may have misunderstood the sarcasm. Either way, I wouldn't blame Layton at all. They are just doing what any business would do. Selling the product given to them.

I hope every case is loaded, would be nice. Fotl Select sure is, so it is definitely within the realm of possibility.

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