Sidney Crosby is a Top __ Player All Time

[BestRCs]

I've seen him ranked in several spots in different outlets curious what folks here think.

[asujbl]

10

But he’s closer to 10 or 9

But he’s also not done

[DontToewsMeBro]

He's Top 25 all time now

He still has some time left to do more

[mattr27]

Def top 15, maybe up in the top 10

[creasecollector]

Top 10 for me.

[codered]

Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux are the top 4 unquestionably in my mind. You could make the argument for Crosby anywhere from 4-10 but definitely top 10

[aro13]

Good poll. I have never thought where Crosby would rank all-time. Will be interesting to see the results.

[valleynuckfan]

I'd put him in the top 25 and close to cracking the top 15.
There are some seriously good players ahead of him with longevity and awards coming out of their a**es.
Here's 15 off the top of my head in no particular order- and not including a half dozen goalies. Does Sid bump any of these guys right now?
wayne
mario
gordie
orr
sakic
yzerman
messier
bourque
coffey
trottier
bobby hull
potvin
esposito
lafleur
beliveau

[CB Nostalgia]

5 is insane and I see it suggested a lot. He isn’t better than Lemieux or Jagr. He isn’t better than Gretzky, Howe or Orr. He arguably isn’t better than Ovechkin, although their games are completely different. Right now I am pretty comfortable putting Crosby in the same tier as Yzerman and Sakic. Certainly top 20.

[k13]

I'd put him in the top 25 and close to cracking the top 15.
There are some seriously good players ahead of him with longevity and awards coming out of their a**es.
Here's 15 off the top of my head in no particular order- and not including a half dozen goalies. Does Sid bump any of these guys right now?
wayne
mario
gordie
orr
sakic
yzerman
messier
bourque
coffey
trottier
bobby hull
potvin
esposito
lafleur
beliveau

You mention all these players but not the guy who's 2nd in points and has 5 art Ross....:doh:

[k13]

Howe is overrated. He's probably not even top 10.

Gretzky would never dominate in the 1997-2004 era.
Just reality.

Very few players could dominate any era.

[PejaD]

Hockey has changed so much over the years that it makes it difficult to compare eras. In his own era, Crosby is probably #2 or 3 behind Ovechkin and possibly McDavid.

[Inferno]

Howe is overrated. He's probably not even top 10.

Gretzky would never dominate in the 1997-2004 era.
Just reality.

Very few players could dominate any era.

Just get out of here. Seriously.


Hockey has changed so much over the years that it makes it difficult to compare eras. In his own era, Crosby is probably #2 or 3 behind Ovechkin and possibly McDavid.

This.

As for Crosby/Ovechkin you can make arguments either way. I'm a Crosby guy personally but I don't fault anybody for leaning Ovie. They came in together and will be linked together forever.

McDavid though has a loooooong way to go yet to prove he belongs up there. Great start in terms of sheer individual numbers no doubt, but it'll soon be time to buckle down and maybe even change his game if necessary to get his team to the next level. And he needs to be careful to avoid any further knee injuries that could slow him down and take away his greatest asset. Maybe he eventually does what people hope he will do but until then I'm going with proven over potential.

[carlo16]

5 is insane and I see it suggested a lot. He isn’t better than Lemieux or Jagr. He isn’t better than Gretzky, Howe or Orr. He arguably isn’t better than Ovechkin, although their games are completely different. Right now I am pretty comfortable putting Crosby in the same tier as Yzerman and Sakic. Certainly top 20.

Nailed it

[rats60]

I'd put him in the top 25 and close to cracking the top 15.
There are some seriously good players ahead of him with longevity and awards coming out of their a**es.
Here's 15 off the top of my head in no particular order- and not including a half dozen goalies. Does Sid bump any of these guys right now?
wayne
mario
gordie
orr
sakic
yzerman
messier
bourque
coffey
trottier
bobby hull
potvin
esposito
lafleur
beliveau

How many of those guys have led their teams to 3 Stanley Cups? It is difficult to rate a current player against those whose careers are finished. I agree there is a clear top 4 above everyone else, but he is the best player since Mario and Wayne. He is definitely top 10 and by the end of his career he will be in the discussion for #5.

[DoubleD]

I'd put him in the top 25 and close to cracking the top 15.
There are some seriously good players ahead of him with longevity and awards coming out of their a**es.
Here's 15 off the top of my head in no particular order- and not including a half dozen goalies. Does Sid bump any of these guys right now?
wayne
mario
gordie
orr
sakic
yzerman
messier
bourque
coffey
trottier
bobby hull
potvin
esposito
lafleur
beliveau

Wow, no mention of Jaromir Jagr. He is in top ten for sure!

[mooselang]

Top 10.

-Currently 6th all time in Points Per Game, despite missing a large chunk of his absolute peak years.
-One of 3 players all time to average more than a point per game for each of first 15 seasons (others being Gretzky and Lemieux)
-3 Cups
-2 Conn Smythes


There is more to list. I would also go into his advanced stats compared to McDavid, Ovechkin, etc., but I know that would not be well received here.

Top 10, mark it 8 dude....

[valleynuckfan]

You mention all these players but not the guy who's 2nd in points and has 5 art Ross....:doh:
I left him out on purpose just so you could chime in and put him on the list. :D

[valleynuckfan]

How many of those guys have led their teams to 3 Stanley Cups? It is difficult to rate a current player against those whose careers are finished. I agree there is a clear top 4 above everyone else, but he is the best player since Mario and Wayne. He is definitely top 10 and by the end of his career he will be in the discussion for #5.
Uh, most of them? And those that didn't were in a few finals and lost out to better teams.
It's a team game. Crosby would have likely won only a single cup without Malkin spreading the other team's D.

[carlo16]

How many of those guys have led their teams to 3 Stanley Cups? It is difficult to rate a current player against those whose careers are finished. I agree there is a clear top 4 above everyone else, but he is the best player since Mario and Wayne. He is definitely top 10 and by the end of his career he will be in the discussion for #5.

Other than Bourque who on this list don’t have multiple cups?

[valleynuckfan]

Wow, no mention of Jaromir Jagr. He is in top ten for sure!
Was on the list and I dumped him for Bobby Hull. Also I left off Marcel Dionne and most players pre-1960.
JJ won his cups as a young rookie on a very stacked team with Mario/Francis/Trottier down the middle- the '92 and '93 Pens were full value.
But I don't discount that Jags is right there with the best. However the ATG list is vast when you look at the entire history of the NHL.
No one will ever agree on any top 10 list.

[CB Nostalgia]

Was on the list and I dumped him for Bobby Hull. Also I left off Marcel Dionne and most players pre-1960.
JJ won his cups as a young rookie on a very stacked team with Mario/Francis/Trottier down the middle- the '92 and '93 Pens were full value.
But I don't discount that Jags is right there with the best. However the ATG list is vast when you look at the entire history of the NHL.
No one will ever agree on any top 10 list.

You're discounting cups won for various players but acting like Crosby led three depleted teams to the finals on his own back. Crosby has relied on Malkin going into beastmode in the playoffs for several runs and if it wasn't for a leaky Osgood or Maxime "The Sniper" Talbot scoring two goals in game seven of 2009 finals he would be in the horrible class of "only" winning two cups.

Jagr's trophy case is arguably better than anyone not named Gretzky, Orr and Hasek.

[valleynuckfan]

You're discounting cups won for various players but acting like Crosby led three depleted teams to the finals on his own back. Crosby has relied on Malkin going into beastmode in the playoffs for several runs and if it wasn't for a leaky Osgood or Maxime "The Sniper" Talbot scoring two goals in game seven of 2009 finals he would be in the horrible class of "only" winning two cups.

Jagr's trophy case is arguably better than anyone not named Gretzky, Orr and Hasek.
Um, so where exactly did I say that Crosby carried his teams? In fact I specifically mentioned in a post that without Malkin he would have maybe won just a single cup.

[MIRRABB]

Howe is overrated. He's probably not even top 10.

Gretzky would never dominate in the 1997-2004 era.
Just reality.

Very few players could dominate any era.

He's easily top-3 of all time. Look at the scoring in the era he played. Then also look at how long he did it at a very high level. Top-2 is debatable.

[mooselang]

Howe is overrated. He's probably not even top 10.

Gretzky would never dominate in the 1997-2004 era.
Just reality.

Very few players could dominate any era.


Gretzky's last two seasons were 90 and 62 points, when he was 37 and 38, in the dead puck era. Pretty good.

Mario came back from a 3 year retirement in 2000, and put up 1.35 points per game from that point until he retired for good in 2005. 1.35 points per game would rank 5th all time...


I think they could dominate any era.

[pskell02]

Gretzky's last two seasons were 90 and 62 points, when he was 37 and 38, in the dead puck era. Pretty good.

Mario came back from a 3 year retirement in 2000, and put up 1.35 points per game from that point until he retired for good in 2005. 1.35 points per game would rank 5th all time...


I think they could dominate any era.

Hot take. Mario was better than Gretzky but hampered by chronic injuries and lymphoma. Mario stays healthy most of his career, we have a different Great One.

[BestRCs]

Good poll. I have never thought where Crosby would rank all-time. Will be interesting to see the results.

Same here until I heard people starting to rank him.

I heard top 5 (at 5 after the big 4) several times watching random shows and it had me thinking like "really??". Skill wise, he is something else though and so it kind of had me wondering.

[valleynuckfan]

Jagr's trophy case is arguably better than anyone not named Gretzky, Orr and Hasek.
Key word being arguably.
Jagr- 2 cups, hart, 3 pearson, 5 ross and a masterton.
There are a lot of players with full trophy cases besides the 3 you mention-
Lemieux- 2 cups, 3 hart, 4 pearson, 6 ross, 2 smythe, calder, masterson and 3 richard.
Lafleur- 5 cups, 2 hart, 3 pearson, 3 ross, 1 smythe and a richard.
Esposito- 2 cups, 2 hart, 2 pearson, 5 ross and 6 richard
Ovechkin- cup, ross, 3 hart, 3 pearson, smythe, calder, 9 richard
Crosby- 3 cups, 2 hart, 3 pearson, 2 ross, 2 smythe, 2 richard
Bobby Hull- cup, hart, 3 ross, byng and 7 richard
And several more like Messier, Roy, Dryden....

[mooselang]

Hot take. Mario was better than Gretzky but hampered by chronic injuries and lymphoma. Mario stays healthy most of his career, we have a different Great One.

Not a hot take. Mario was the most dominant player ever. But can he be considered the greatest because of injuries? Not sure.

Kind of like Crosby would be going for 1500 points and 500 goals this year had it not been for injuries. But that’s part of life.

[rats60]

Hot take. Mario was better than Gretzky but hampered by chronic injuries and lymphoma. Mario stays healthy most of his career, we have a different Great One.

Not a hot take and Bobby Orr was better than both of them

[kellmuff]

prob in the 5-7 range right now but I think top 3 when he's done. He has been the best player in the most skilled generation of hockey. Won everything multiple times. Massive for his country at every level.

[rats60]

Wow, no mention of Jaromir Jagr. He is in top ten for sure!

Same for Rocket Richard and he is ahead of Jagr and both are top 10.

[anusinha]

Hockey has a clear and small A tier with Gretzky, Howe, Orr, and Lemieux. Crosby definitely is that 2nd tier of great players, but there's a lot of company there (Yzerman, Messier, Jagr, and a pile of others) and its really tough to really say which one in any tier is better than another.

[I pull scrubs]

I'd put him in the top 25 and close to cracking the top 15.
There are some seriously good players ahead of him with longevity and awards coming out of their a**es.
Here's 15 off the top of my head in no particular order- and not including a half dozen goalies. Does Sid bump any of these guys right now?
wayne
mario
gordie
orr
sakic
yzerman
messier
bourque
coffey
trottier
bobby hull
potvin
esposito
lafleur
beliveau

Patrick Roy should arguably be the #1 goalie

[MIRRABB]

Patrick Roy should arguably be the #1 goalie

He is 2 or 3.

[mooselang]

Hasek > Roy

[valleynuckfan]

Same for Rocket Richard and he is ahead of Jagr and both are top 10.
OK, so which 7 players do you drop off my list to put Jags and The Rocket into the top 10?
I'm not saying that my top 15 is definitive by any means- I'd say that probably only 6-7 would be clear locks for most people. I like this open discussion and debate on the ATGs.
I also missed Ovie- he's on the bubble of my top 15 right now, but until a career is finished I can't top 10 anyone not already retired.

[carlo16]

OK, so which 7 players do you drop off my list to put Jags and The Rocket into the top 10?
I'm not saying that my top 15 is definitive by any means- I'd say that probably only 6-7 would be clear locks for most people. I like this open discussion and debate on the ATGs.
I also missed Ovie- he's on the bubble of my top 15 right now, but until a career is finished I can't top 10 anyone not already retired.

I'd put Jagr and Richard ahead or Coffey, Potvin, Trottier. Id probably put Lidstrom ahead of Coffey and Potvin and Coffey is my 2nd all time favorite player. Fun debate. Not enough hockey talk on here.

Sorry noticed youre trying to get them into top ten. Drop Esposito and LaFleur. I honestly think Richard isnt top 10 but legacy wise it's hard not to put him there.

[discostu]

Crosby in the top 5?

All-time?!?!?

Come on.

[valleynuckfan]

Hasek > Roy
I'd agree with this.
Hasek didn't get into the league with the Blackhawks until 1990 and he was 25 and Belfour was the clear#1 in Chicago. The Dominator didn't get a lot of ice until he went to the Sabres and shared the net with Grant Fuhr and Darren Puppa. He became the #1 in '93-94.
Roy had the longevity though and that counts for a lot.

[valleynuckfan]

I'd put Jagr and Richard ahead or Coffey, Potvin, Trottier. Id probably put Lidstrom ahead of Coffey and Potvin and Coffey is my 2nd all time favorite player. Fun debate. Not enough hockey talk on here.

Sorry noticed youre trying to get them into top ten. Drop Esposito and LaFleur. I honestly think Richard isnt top 10 but legacy wise it's hard not to put him there.
OK cool, you're dropping Coffey, Potvin, Trottier, Esposito and Lafleur.
Need 1 more out to put in Jagr. 2 more out to add Lidstrom.
This is fun isn't it! :D

[carlo16]

OK cool, you're dropping Coffey, Potvin, Trottier, Esposito and Lafleur.
Need 1 more out to put in Jagr. 2 more out to add Lidstrom.
This is fun isn't it! :D

Sorry Sakic. Jágr was better.

[clearblue]

Brodeur > Hasek > Roy

[carlo16]

Brodeur > Hasek > Roy

Oh good god no.

[mooselang]

I've never seen a goalie Dominate like Hasek. He did have a fitting nickname. He just willed those otherwise mediocre Sabres to the Cup final. He had the best 6 year stretch of any goalie in history. Roy was good for a longer period of time, but man there was nothing like mid-90s Hasek.

Brodeur never had to will the Devils anywhere. And, as unfair as it is to Brodeur, the Devils system did him no favors when trying to place him all-time.

[valleynuckfan]

...Brodeur never had to will the Devils anywhere. And, as unfair as it is to Brodeur, the Devils system did him no favors when trying to place him all-time.
Same with Kenny Dryden- pretty much my all time favourite player- inspired me to play goal as a youth.
But the 70s Habs were probably the best defensive team of all time, so as much as he did winning 6 cups, there was a reason he stood and leaned on his stick in that iconic pose- boredom!

[aro13]

Same with Kenny Dryden- pretty much my all time favourite player- inspired me to play goal as a youth.
But the 70s Habs were probably the best defensive team of all time, so as much as he did winning 6 cups, there was a reason he stood and leaned on his stick in that iconic pose- boredom!

I am a Bruins fan and I used to feel the same way - thinking Dryden was over-rated. But as time has passed and I have looked at the old game tapes and studied the statistics I have changed that way of thinking. He was truly elite - his numbers were outstanding even with an outstanding defense. He gets lost in the discussion sometimes because he played for Montreal.

Roy has longevity and some Stanley Cups but he had some bad play-offs and while people like to go on about he single handidly won the Cup in 1986 and 1993 it should be remembered that the Habs had the home ice and the better team in all but ONE series each time. They avoided the 119 point Oilers, the 110 point Flyers and the 107 point Capitals in 1986 and in 1993 they avoided the 109 point Bruins who owned Roy back than and the 119 point Penguins. The Canadians actually were the best team in virtually every series goaltending aside. And for all the reviews about how clutch Roy was - check out his game 7 record - you might be surprised.

As for the discussion at hand, I am finding it very interesting where people rank Crosby.

[rats60]

OK, so which 7 players do you drop off my list to put Jags and The Rocket into the top 10?
I'm not saying that my top 15 is definitive by any means- I'd say that probably only 6-7 would be clear locks for most people. I like this open discussion and debate on the ATGs.
I also missed Ovie- he's on the bubble of my top 15 right now, but until a career is finished I can't top 10 anyone not already retired.

Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Richard
Beliveau
Lafleur
Crosby
Hull
Jagr
Esposito
Messier
Hasek
Lidstrom

[TheHeel]

Top 10. Would have been top 5 but injuries during his peak hindered his game.

[joh6018]

1. Lemieux
2. Orr
3. Gretzky
4. Sid
5. Ovy
6. Jagr
7. Coffey
8. McDavid
9. Yzerman
10. Lidstrom

Sid is easily the most complete player in the last 20 years. His ppg speaks for itself in both the regular season and playoffs. I also expect McDavid to move up that list, as he's only been in the league since 2015.

1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Brodeur

Hasek's stats compared to his backups is insanely better than the other two. He just never had the team around him. Roy is my personal favorite though!

[carlo16]

Shocked at how many lists Esposito is on. Where do you guys rank Dave Andreychuk all time?

[kellmuff]

Roy is overrated due to his Conn Smyths because people over value a 20~ game sample over the larger body of work. He's #3, well behind Hasek (the GOAT) and Brodeur though.

If you dont agree that Hasek is the best ever, you're incapable of an objective look at everyones careers.

[greenrebellion]

Roy is overrated due to his Conn Smyths because people over value a 20~ game sample over the larger body of work. He's #3, well behind Hasek (the GOAT) and Brodeur though.

If you dont agree that Hasek is the best ever, you're incapable of an objective look at everyones careers.

Agreed, Hasek was on an entirely different level and is the most unique and gifted goaltenders to ever play the game.

[Bartie]

Roy is overrated due to his Conn Smyths because people over value a 20~ game sample over the larger body of work. He's #3, well behind Hasek (the GOAT) and Brodeur though.

If you dont agree that Hasek is the best ever, you're incapable of an objective look at everyones careers.

Hasek was clearly the most skilled of all time, but unfortunately he started playing full time so late in his career.

I strongly disagree about Brodeur being second, he played behind an iron curtain defense for most of his career, whereas Roy almost single-handedly won 2 cups in Montreal, and then brought Colorado over the top for the next two cups.

[carlo16]

Hasek was clearly the most skilled of all time, but unfortunately he started playing full time so late in his career.

I strongly disagree about Brodeur being second, he played behind an iron curtain defense for most of his career, whereas Roy almost single-handedly won 2 cups in Montreal, and then brought Colorado over the top for the next two cups.

Brodeur=Emmitt Smith

[tcdyess]

A bit off this topic, but relatable... I found a Gretzky RC in my closet that I've had for about 30 years. It got me doing some research before I sent it out for grading. It is amazing how dominant The Great One was, no other sport has had such a distance between the top and everyone else..... I'm no longer a huge hockey guy since the Whale left Hartford, but it amazes me that in all this time no one has even gotten close to Gretzky's level.

[carlo16]

A bit off this topic, but relatable... I found a Gretzky RC in my closet that I've had for about 30 years. It got me doing some research before I sent it out for grading. It is amazing how dominant The Great One was, no other sport has had such a distance between the top and everyone else..... I'm no longer a huge hockey guy since the Whale left Hartford, but it amazes me that in all this time no one has even gotten close to Gretzky's level.

Talent pool is just so deep. The greats probably coulda played in any era but a 4th line center from the 50-80s wouldn’t make it outta juniors today.

[valleynuckfan]

Shocked at how many lists Esposito is on. Where do you guys rank Dave Andreychuk all time?
I don't rank Dave at all until maybe the 50-100 list. He was a great scorer but his career totals were a product of longevity. Only two 50 goal years in 23 seasons.
Espo was a goal scoring machine and point producer.
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/e/esposph01.html
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/a/andreda01.html

[carlo16]

I don't rank Dave at all until maybe the 50-100 list. He was a great scorer but his career totals were a product of longevity. Only two 50 goal years in 23 seasons.
Espo was a goal scoring machine and point producer.
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/e/esposph01.html
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/a/andreda01.html

My comment was a little tongue and cheek but Esposito is very overrated. Garbage man on great teams hence the Andreychuk comparison.

[isles4life]

It's very difficult to evaluate players at different positions. As far as centers go, I would put him in the top 5.

All time? how do you compare him to Orr, Potvin, Roy, Hasek, etc., you can't

[mallowciraptor]

Voted Sid in the Top 25, but he has earned consideration as a Top 15. Still room to move up the list, especially if he can add another Stanley Cup to his resume.

My list would be:


Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Hasek
Howe
Roy
Beliveau
Messier
Jagr
Hull
Rocket
Bourque
Brodeur
Ovechkin
Crosby

[isles4life]

Roy is overrated due to his Conn Smyths because people over value a 20~ game sample over the larger body of work. He's #3, well behind Hasek (the GOAT) and Brodeur though.

If you dont agree that Hasek is the best ever, you're incapable of an objective look at everyones careers.

Conn Smyths are the most important trophy, when a player has 3 (the most of any other player), you can't ignore it. That sample size you are talking about, are the most important/toughest games that an NHL player can play in.

[mallowciraptor]

My comment was a little tongue and cheek but Esposito is very overrated. Garbage man on great teams hence the Andreychuk comparison.

Espo was a major reason why those teams were so great. He gets overlooked among a lot of Bruins fans as one of the best players in franchise history, let alone being a Top 25 NHL player.

[carlo16]

Espo was a major reason why those teams were so great. He gets overlooked among a lot of Bruins fans as one of the best players in franchise history, let alone being a Top 25 NHL player.

Top 25 is fair. Regardless of how he got those numbers, they are still impressive. Seeing him on top 10-15 lists I think is too much.

[valleynuckfan]

Esposito is very overrated. Garbage man on great teams...
IDK about that. Espo had 2 Harts and 2 Pearsons and was 2nd or 3rd in Hart voting 3 other times along with First Team AS Center 6 years in a row. sounds like a steady MVP to me.

[mallowciraptor]

Seeing him on top 10-15 lists I think is too much.

If someone wanted to make the case for it I'd certainly listen to their argument, but I would also agree that is a bit high to place him.

[NHRonin]

Espo was a major reason why those teams were so great. He gets overlooked among a lot of Bruins fans as one of the best players in franchise history, let alone being a Top 25 NHL player.

I don’t know which Bruins’ fans you’re talking to. I live in New England and we know what a great player and Bruin Espo was.

You must be talking to the same fans who think Rask sucks and should be cut. 😜

[valleynuckfan]

Conn Smyths are the most important trophy, when a player has 3 (the most of any other player), you can't ignore it. That sample size you are talking about, are the most important/toughest games that an NHL player can play in.
Yup, his 3 Conn Smythe Trophies pretty much sums it up.
I'll give Hasek the nod as #1, but to discount Roy and not have him in the conversation is utter nonsense.
I'd put Brodeur 3rd at best but you could argue other guys like Dryden, Parent, Sawchuk, Plante, Hall and some of the other old guys
I've been quoted about Dryden being a product of strong teams but you can't deny his 8 year career stat line- 397 GP, 258W, 57L, 74T, .922 S%, 2.24 GAA and 46 SO.

[gregggyf]

Howe is overrated. He's probably not even top 10.

Gretzky would never dominate in the 1997-2004 era.
Just reality.

Very few players could dominate any era.

Hello k13,

Could you please explain to me why Gretzky would not dominate in the 1997-2004,

I would really like to understand the "differences the way the game was played in the different eras."

Thank you very much.

[carlo16]

IDK about that. Espo had 2 Harts and 2 Pearsons and was 2nd or 3rd in Hart voting 3 other times along with First Team AS Center 6 years in a row. sounds like a steady MVP to me.

Yeah but especially in that era the HART goes to the scoring leader with little regard to how the player went about accumulating those points. Don't get me wrong, Espo is an all time great, I just think putting him top 10-15 is overrating his abilities. He really didnt have any one great skill. A self admitted poor skater, not great with the puck. Had a nose for net though and I guess that is a skill.

On to Hasek. Watching him play was amazing. I'm sure we all played against that goalie that always seemed to get lucky, but Hasek got "lucky" for 10 years lol.

[carlo16]

I don’t know which Bruins’ fans you’re talking to. I live in New England and we know what a great player and Bruin Espo was.

You must be talking to the same fans who think Rask sucks and should be cut. 😜

I wouldnt be shocked to hear many Bruins fans name Cam Neely ahead of Esposito on their list.

[Anish]

Definitely behind:
Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Hasek
Jagr

Maybe behind:
Roy
Plante
Shore
Morenz
Lidstrom
Ovechkin
Richard
Bo Hull
Harvey

Somewhere between 7-15. Probably 7-10 by retirement.

[mooselang]

On to Hasek. Watching him play was amazing. I'm sure we all played against that goalie that always seemed to get lucky, but Hasek got "lucky" for 10 years lol.

My buddy used to hate Hasek when we were growing up. He thought he was overrated. He would scream "I don't know why they just don't shoot high on him!" I was like "Dude, these are NHL players. Don't you think after a decade of him being unreal, they would've figured something out!??"

Just "shoot high"

lol

I love Hasek so much.

[valleynuckfan]

Yeah but especially in that era the HART goes to the scoring leader with little regard to how the player went about accumulating those points.
Yeah I'll mostly agree with that.

[mallowciraptor]

I don’t know which Bruins’ fans you’re talking to. I live in New England and we know what a great player and Bruin Espo was.

You must be talking to the same fans who think Rask sucks and should be cut. 😜

I live in Maine and you'd be surprised the amount of "old timers" who forget how good he was. Some of that is probably regency bias as we get further away from Espo's playing days.

And yes the Rask hate is somewhat prevalent up here as well, which is obscene as there is a very legitimate case for him being the best goalie in franchise history.

[valleynuckfan]

And yes the Rask hate is somewhat prevalent up here as well, which is obscene as there is a very legitimate case for him being the best goalie in franchise history.
When you drop the ball in the SCF that's what happens.
Same here in VCR with Luongo- when he crapped his pants in Game 7 2011 vs the Bs he was never forgiven by a lot of local choads.

[carlo16]

When you drop the ball in the SCF that's what happens.
Same here in VCR with Luongo- when he crapped his pants in Game 7 2011 vs the Bs he was never forgiven by a lot of local choads.

Tim Thomas played about as good as I’ve ever seen a goalie play in a Stanley cup finals series.

[k13]

Hello k13,

Could you please explain to me why Gretzky would not dominate in the 1997-2004,

I would really like to understand the "differences the way the game was played in the different eras."

Thank you very much.

Because scoring completely dropped off. Goalies got better and pads got way bigger.

It was the lowest scoring modern era.

The "peak" was 2003-04 with a weak 41 goal leaders and 1 players scoring in the 90's.

Lockout came and scoring went up huge because of power plays.
Ovechkin/Crosby came at the right time.

Scoring came down again and we had a pathetic art ross with Jamie Benn winning.

Rules changes came again for the McDavid era.

[k13]

1. Jaromir Jagr • PIT 127
2. Teemu Selanne* • MDA 107
3. Paul Kariya* • MDA 101
4. Peter Forsberg* • COL 97
5. Joe Sakic* • COL 96
6. Alexei Yashin • OTT 94
7. Theoren Fleury • 2TM 93
Eric Lindros* • PHI 93
9. John LeClair • PHI 90
10. Pavol Demitra • STL 89
11. Martin Straka • PIT 83
Mats Sundin* • TOR 83
13. Mike Modano* • DAL 81
14. Jason Allison • BOS 76
15. Tony Amonte • CHI 75
16. Rod Brind'Amour • PHI 74
Luc Robitaille* • LAK 74
Steve Yzerman* • DET 74
19. Steve Thomas • TOR 73
20. Jeremy Roenick • PHX 72

Look at all these legends and hofemers...and how far ahead Jagr is.
This is when you had goalies under 2.00 gaa

There is ZERO chance Crosby/Mcdavid would score that many points in that era.

Oh wait...they never scored that many in ANY season.

Yet they are GOATS:doh::doh::doh:

[carlo16]

Because scoring completely dropped off. Goalies got better and pads got way bigger.

It was the lowest scoring modern era.

The "peak" was 2003-04 with a weak 41 goal leaders and 1 players scoring in the 90's.

Lockout came and scoring went up huge because of power plays.
Ovechkin/Crosby came at the right time.

Scoring came down again and we had a pathetic art ross with Jamie Benn winning.

Rules changes came again for the McDavid era.

So if Gretzky went from scoring 180-200 when everybody else was at 120-130 to scoring 110-120 points when everybody else was putting up 70-80 would that not still be dominance? If you wanna say his skill set wouldn’t have translated....fine but make some sense in your hate.

[mallowciraptor]

Tim Thomas played about as good as I’ve ever seen a goalie play in a Stanley cup finals series.

His playoff run was otherworldly.

It's a shame people have held to Rask to the same standard without actually realizing his own two Cup Finals runs are likely in the top 20 in NHL playoff history. Shame those teams didn't win either of those series, but Rask was certainly the straw that stirred the drink in both of them.

[johnashleyjacob]

I would think top 5 for sure, if didn’t have the injury trouble during his peak years. His amazing stats would only look even better. Plus, I say the year he was out with concussion is was well on his way to winning the Hart. I would place him in the top 15.


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[isles4life]

So if Gretzky went from scoring 180-200 when everybody else was at 120-130 to scoring 110-120 points when everybody else was putting up 70-80 would that not still be dominance? If you wanna say his skill set wouldn’t have translated....fine but make some sense in your hate.

guys trolling, stop feeding him

[carlo16]

guys trolling, stop feeding him

No I’m gonna win!!!

[bp06km13]

He's somewhere in the top 10 closer to 10. The Golden Goal in the Olympics was a huge factor imo for keeping him above others around the same level.

[DetroitTN]

To be clear, the "top 10" should have 15 total players spanning the different eras. Something like that..

As much as don't like crosby, he is top 25 at a glance and possibly top 15 at the end of his career due to the number of cups. I don't think I'd argue with anyone saying top 10 after he retires, assuming he has several good years left.

So that's my non answer, I guess

[pip]

Howe is overrated. He's probably not even top 10.

Gretzky would never dominate in the 1997-2004 era.
Just reality.

Very few players could dominate any era.Howe and Gretzky would dominate in any era. Howe, in particular, was a beast. He was extremely physical and was a prolific scorer. If anyone would fit well in today's game it would be him. Think Ovi but a better team player and a smoother skater.

[JeremyNick]

It’s amazing the how underrated Crosby is.

My vote is top 5 and if you put I’m out of the top 10 you’re crazy.

[Giroux]

My most hated player throughout the years. I've let it go these days, mostly.

I'd still have him top 10. Have to respect his skill.

[rhineland]

He's just outside of the top 5. Had he not been injured, he would have undoubtedly been in the 5th spot because he would have had the raw numbers to put him there without any questions. In addition to the hardware and stats that he's collected in the NHL, him scoring the Golden Goal in 2010 cannot be discounted. Absolutely iconic moment, and it's awesome that he scored it since he was the guy for Canada.

As others have stated, the top 4 are pretty well locked, so it's a question of whether or not he's the #5 guy. I don't think he's there yet, and you can make an argument for him to be put anywhere from 6-10. His career isn't over, though, so there's still time.

[sportsyard]

He's top 10...

Mount Rushmore - Gretzky, Mario, Howe, Orr, McDavid.

Next Tier

Crosby, Ovechkin, Jagr, Lafleur, Richard

Next Tier

Bure, Yzerman, Sakic, tones of others

[JeremyNick]

He's top 10...

Mount Rushmore - Gretzky, Mario, Howe, Orr, McDavid.

Next Tier

Crosby, Ovechkin, Jagr, Lafleur, Richard

Next Tier

Bure, Yzerman, Sakic, tones of others

McDavid already on Mt. Rushmore?

[anusinha]

McDavid over Crosby?

Crosby is hurt because the end of his career is kinda meh, as opposed to Ovechkin who is still chugging along. But his prime was amazing, I'd have him in the back part of the top 10 overall. Are we including goalies?

[rohara99]

Crosby's career > McDavid's career

And its not even close.

[rats60]

Mount Rushmore - Gretzky, Mario, Howe, Orr

Next Tier

Crosby, Ovechkin, Jagr, Lafleur, Richard, Beliveau, Bobby Hull

Next Tier

McDavid, etc.

[bp06km13]

McDavid over Crosby?

Crosby is hurt because the end of his career is kinda meh, as opposed to Ovechkin who is still chugging along. But his prime was amazing, I'd have him in the back part of the top 10 overall. Are we including goalies?

end of his career kinda meh? He put up 84pts in 69gp last year and even put up 100 in 2018. Not to mention back-to-back Conn Smythes in 2015/2016 including a Rocket in 2016 lol...

[slev]

Crosby is top 5


I think he's the highest touted draft ever? He's met and exceeded all expectations
-He's been face of the league, arguably still is, since he entered
-100 + points in rookie season, narrowly losing the Calder to Ovechkin (in the 2000-present era, who does that? lol)
-3 cups, 2 conns. led his team to SCF year before their first win, and came back next year to avenge
-He's won several arts, rockets, and harts (should have more); Olympic golds, golden goal etc


Also, he is probably the single biggest factor in revamping our hockey hobby too. He carried our hobby, and was the centerpiece in entire new product lines and ways of collecting (like LeBron with Exquisite). People forget too quickly.


He's the blueprint on how to be a modern day pro.


Sid the kid will be cherished

[DetroitTN]

He's the blueprint on how to be a modern day pro.



Let's not get carried away.

[forest]

Crosby is hurt because the end of his career is kinda meh, as opposed to Ovechkin who is still chugging along.

Crosby played at a 104 point pace last year at age 35. I don't think "the end of his career" has even started yet.

[Wyatt2506]

-100 + points in rookie season, narrowly losing the Calder to Ovechkin (in the 2000-present era, who does that? lol)


Believe it or not, it really was not even close. Ovechkin received 125 out of 129 first-place votes for the Calder...while Crosby only received 4 first-place votes.

I would put Sid just outside of the top 25.

[JeremyNick]

I think Crosby is so underrated because he has never been a flashy player. He’s probably the best grinder to ever play the game. He gets the snot beat out of him and just keeps going until he buries the goal. He probably still has the best hands and hand eye coordination in the league.

The play against the Caps in the ‘17 playoffs where Ovi slashed him across the head,, he shot the puck and then got cross checked in the face by Niskanen sums up his playing style.

[JanuaryRains]

I've got him in the top 10 but that's also a function of the fact that over time there just will be too many players for a top 5 or 10. He's closer to 5 than he is to 10 for me though.

In my eyes he helped define an era of hockey with Ovi. He's had a fantastic career and still left things on the table for a variety of reasons, primarily health.

Top 10 player, lived up to the hype right away and did everything he was expected to do and maybe then some.

[rohara99]

I would put Sid just outside of the top 25.

Are you a Flyers fan? LOL

[Wyatt2506]

Are you a Flyers fan? LOL

Worse...Flyers AND Capitals fan:D

But I TRY to set aside my bias when it comes to Sid. I have been a hockey fan for 40+ years at this point. I believe I have seen at least 25 players that I would rank higher than Crosby. I just cannot squeeze him into the top 25. I would be willing to give him #27...but I would put Alexandre Daigle at #26:devil:

[vonhayes]

Sidney Crosby is THE Top Whiniest Player of all time!

But even as a Flyers fan, I must give the devil his due. Somewhere between 5-10. All the guy did for most of his career is win (Both Stanley Cups and International). And he probably has 2 good years left. I love Jagr, but he never won the big one without Lemieux - so wherever Sid is I’m putting Jagr right behind him.

And since we are talking about the whiniest player of all time - I think it’s only fair that I should whine in this thread. Since the mid 80s or so the Penguins have drafted offense among the likes Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, Letang, Straka, McEachern, Jordan Staal, and FrankenMalkin. There are a lot more good players I’m sure, and Pens fans can correct me if I’m wrong or if I’m missing anyone.

Meanwhile, 5 hours down the turnpike, it’s a complete dumpster fire. Flyers pick Peter Zezel (one good year), Scott Mellanby (yes, the Scott Mellanby), Tocchet (saved his best years for Pittsburgh), Ricci + Forsberg (both traded away for the other “Next One”,) Ryan Sittler (career ended before it started), Patrick Sharp + Justin Williams + Vinny Prospal (all had good careers on other teams), Jeff Carter + Mike Richards (The Lonely Island), Giroux (I can’t even), JVR (wasn’t good, went to Toronto and was good, came back and wasn’t good again), Sean Courterier (a great 2nd line player), and Nolan Patrick (spokesman for Imitrex).

How is it the Penguins seem to never miss on a top 5 pick and their rebuild is over in one year while the Flyers have been rebuilding since 1997? Ugh…..now I depressed myself - why do I even watch this sport…..anyway, sorry for the poor spelling. This forum is for cards, so I’ll bring it back by saying don’t buy Flyers rookies (unless it’s Gritty).

Go back to talking about Sid.


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[rohara99]

Worse...Flyers AND Capitals fan:D

But I TRY to set aside my bias when it comes to Sid. I have been a hockey fan for 40+ years at this point. I believe I have seen at least 25 players that I would rank higher than Crosby. I just cannot squeeze him into the top 25. I would be willing to give him #27...but I would put Alexandre Daigle at #26:devil:

Hah, thats fair.

But your ranking of him it totally biased and out to lunch.

[vonhayes]

Worse...Flyers AND Capitals fan:D

But I TRY to set aside my bias when it comes to Sid. I have been a hockey fan for 40+ years at this point. I believe I have seen at least 25 players that I would rank higher than Crosby. I just cannot squeeze him into the top 25. I would be willing to give him #27...but I would put Alexandre Daigle at #26:devil:


Remember when the Flyers had Alexandre Daigle? Pat Falloon? Valeri Zelepukin? Chris Gratton? Geoff Sanderson? Alexei Zhamnov? Shawn Antoski? Alexei Zhitnik? Karl
Dykhuis? Gilbert Dionne? Peter Nedved? Chris Pronger? Keith Primeau? Derian Hatcher? Mike Rathje? They even had…..Jaromir Jagr!!

Interestingly, I think 75% of the 1st round picks/Young Guns cards from 1990-1992 played at least one season for the Flyers. That has to be some kind of record. In hindsight it was not a good thing.

[JeremyNick]

Sidney Crosby is THE Top Whiniest Player of all time!

But even as a Flyers fan, I must give the devil his due. Somewhere between 5-10. All the guy did for most of his career is win (Both Stanley Cups and International). And he probably has 2 good years left. I love Jagr, but he never won the big one without Lemieux - so wherever Sid is I’m putting Jagr right behind him.

And since we are talking about the whiniest player of all time - I think it’s only fair that I should whine in this thread. Since the mid 80s or so the Penguins have drafted offense among the likes Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, Letang, Straka, McEachern, Jordan Staal, and FrankenMalkin. There are a lot more good players I’m sure, and Pens fans can correct me if I’m wrong or if I’m missing anyone.

Meanwhile, 5 hours down the turnpike, it’s a complete dumpster fire. Flyers pick Peter Zezel (one good year), Scott Mellanby (yes, the Scott Mellanby), Tocchet (saved his best years for Pittsburgh), Ricci + Forsberg (both traded away for the other “Next One”,) Ryan Sittler (career ended before it started), Patrick Sharp + Justin Williams + Vinny Prospal (all had good careers on other teams), Jeff Carter + Mike Richards (The Lonely Island), Giroux (I can’t even), JVR (wasn’t good, went to Toronto and was good, came back and wasn’t good again), Sean Courterier (a great 2nd line player), and Nolan Patrick (spokesman for Imitrex).

How is it the Penguins seem to never miss on a top 5 pick and their rebuild is over in one year while the Flyers have been rebuilding since 1997? Ugh…..now I depressed myself - why do I even watch this sport…..anyway, sorry for the poor spelling. This forum is for cards, so I’ll bring it back by saying don’t buy Flyers rookies (unless it’s Gritty).

Go back to talking about Sid.


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I realize that this post was supposed to be funny but the “Crosby whines so much” is about 15 years past it’s expiration date at this point.

[vonhayes]

I realize that this post was supposed to be funny but the “Crosby whines so much” is about 15 years past it’s expiration date at this point.


Hmmmmm interesting……

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/06/sidney-crosby-makes-it-hard-to-root-for-sidney-crosby

https://www.thesportster.com/hockey/nhl-people-who-arent-fans-of-sidney-crosby/


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[sportsyard]

enjoy until he's gone. Ovie and Crosby have been awesome.