Jokic vs Doncic

[IndianaCards]

What's the difference between these two guys in terms of how they SHOULD be valued in the hobby?

Jokic is putting up a more impressive stat-line, a triple double no less, and the potential front runner for MVP.

Doncic is younger, and I guess that drives things, people get that young phenom vibe and feel like guys are just gonna get better and better year after year, and that may be the case in a marginal, efficiency kinda way, but it's not always gonna translate to statistical greatness.

I understand the two have different games obviously, two different positions and play styles, but they share a lot of similarities too and it stretches deeper than just being Euro style ballers. Both have that "at their own pace" play speed, where it looks like they're moving really slow but at the same time it generally results in points, be it via them scoring or finding the open man. Neither is overly athletic, and both use skill and efficiency to thrive.

The difference in hobby value between these two guys is insane, and I'm not sure that it's justified. I think Jokic has a TON of room to run. I'm sure you guys will chip in with your opinions and I'm interested in hearing them.

[sebreg]

Imo Doncic has a higher ceiling and his play style is more exciting than Jokic. Doncic is a ballhandler who can penetrate and shoot (well, the shooting part is maybe more tenuous lately), that kind of player will almost always generate more interest than a talented big man (big-man bias hurts Jokic).

[sethc1020]

Love both of them but the main difference is that one brings the ball down the court and controls the offense and the other does not. Jokic is a "big man" although a very special "big man" but values have never been the same for the "big men". The hobby loves the floor generals and guys that control the ball. But I agree that Jokic is criminally undervalued

[Vinny1984]

To put it very simply: Jokic is a big man. Same as Embiid/Towns. I have no idea why big men still don’t compete with other stars value wise. Same can be said for defensive players in football. I think it’s because when new folk entered the hobby, they were all told what does and doesn’t hold value and understandably followed along. Maybe the bigs will have their time to shine but if it hasn’t happed yet, I’m not holding out hope.

[KhalDrogo]

Joker is a PF. End thread.

[NeedChapmans]

Two things.

(1) I think the people so far that have said Doncic is a ball handler and/or shooter don't watch the games because Jokic is just as much those things if not more. There is no spot on the floor he cannot get an assist from and no spot on the floor he won't take a 20 foot arching shot somehow finds a way. I don't believe that to be it.

(2) You must appreciate that for almost three full years, I owned about 70% of the entire Jokic high end RC market. I current have 61 of his 99 RPA's (his only RPA) and owned roughly 60% of all Prizm Silver and 70% of all Prizm color. I had more than 100 of the /199 blues, more than 200 of the /350 Rubies, more than 50% of the Gold / Mojo / White Sparkle, Orange and Purple as well. And the Black 1/1.

I say this because in doing this, it has an unintended negative effect on value. When you consider the threads on this board, and the "hype" ... there isn't any because nobody owns any. And I'm not a hype man so I don't post; and that lack of market share from the public hurts his value. It's undeniable IMHO but is starting to change as I've begun unloading all the Prizm, all the Silver PSA 10's and all the Prizm color. I'll hold onto about 200 Silvers and ~40 Immaculate RPA's but everything else goes. And when the market starts to take in some of the share, I think you'll start to see more action and better prices.

Not Doncic prices but much more comparable prices.

[dkcardman]

Two things.

(1) I think the people so far that have said Doncic is a ball handler and/or shooter don't watch the games because Jokic is just as much those things if not more. There is no spot on the floor he cannot get an assist from and no spot on the floor he won't take a 20 foot arching shot somehow finds a way. I don't believe that to be it.

(2) You must appreciate that for almost three full years, I owned about 70% of the entire Jokic high end RC market. I current have 61 of his 99 RPA's (his only RPA) and owned roughly 60% of all Prizm Silver and 70% of all Prizm color. I had more than 100 of the /199 blues, more than 200 of the /350 Rubies, more than 50% of the Gold / Mojo / White Sparkle, Orange and Purple as well. And the Black 1/1.

I say this because in doing this, it has an unintended negative effect on value. When you consider the threads on this board, and the "hype" ... there isn't any because nobody owns any. And I'm not a hype man so I don't post; and that lack of market share from the public hurts his value. It's undeniable IMHO but is starting to change as I've begun unloading all the Prizm, all the Silver PSA 10's and all the Prizm color. I'll hold onto about 200 Silvers and ~40 Immaculate RPA's but everything else goes. And when the market starts to take in some of the share, I think you'll start to see more action and better prices.

Not Doncic prices but much more comparable prices.

Holy moly!

[IndianaCards]

Two things.

(1) I think the people so far that have said Doncic is a ball handler and/or shooter don't watch the games because Jokic is just as much those things if not more. There is no spot on the floor he cannot get an assist from and no spot on the floor he won't take a 20 foot arching shot somehow finds a way. I don't believe that to be it.

(2) You must appreciate that for almost three full years, I owned about 70% of the entire Jokic high end RC market. I current have 61 of his 99 RPA's (his only RPA) and owned roughly 60% of all Prizm Silver and 70% of all Prizm color. I had more than 100 of the /199 blues, more than 200 of the /350 Rubies, more than 50% of the Gold / Mojo / White Sparkle, Orange and Purple as well. And the Black 1/1.

I say this because in doing this, it has an unintended negative effect on value. When you consider the threads on this board, and the "hype" ... there isn't any because nobody owns any. And I'm not a hype man so I don't post; and that lack of market share from the public hurts his value. It's undeniable IMHO but is starting to change as I've begun unloading all the Prizm, all the Silver PSA 10's and all the Prizm color. I'll hold onto about 200 Silvers and ~40 Immaculate RPA's but everything else goes. And when the market starts to take in some of the share, I think you'll start to see more action and better prices.

Not Doncic prices but much more comparable prices.

Well lol, I'm certainly interested in buying some Jokic. If you're doing individual or volume sales please PM me. Thanks.

[mwheeler27]

Two things.

(1) I think the people so far that have said Doncic is a ball handler and/or shooter don't watch the games because Jokic is just as much those things if not more. There is no spot on the floor he cannot get an assist from and no spot on the floor he won't take a 20 foot arching shot somehow finds a way. I don't believe that to be it.

(2) You must appreciate that for almost three full years, I owned about 70% of the entire Jokic high end RC market. I current have 61 of his 99 RPA's (his only RPA) and owned roughly 60% of all Prizm Silver and 70% of all Prizm color. I had more than 100 of the /199 blues, more than 200 of the /350 Rubies, more than 50% of the Gold / Mojo / White Sparkle, Orange and Purple as well. And the Black 1/1.

I say this because in doing this, it has an unintended negative effect on value. When you consider the threads on this board, and the "hype" ... there isn't any because nobody owns any. And I'm not a hype man so I don't post; and that lack of market share from the public hurts his value. It's undeniable IMHO but is starting to change as I've begun unloading all the Prizm, all the Silver PSA 10's and all the Prizm color. I'll hold onto about 200 Silvers and ~40 Immaculate RPA's but everything else goes. And when the market starts to take in some of the share, I think you'll start to see more action and better prices.

Not Doncic prices but much more comparable prices.

That is so very, very true. Most people have never thought about that before. I too have collected something to where I owned the vast majority of all made.

When others don’t have and can’t get what they’d like to have, they stop talking about and chasing those items.

It’s painful letting PC items go to others at times, but it’s healthy for your PC to do so.

[Vinny1984]

Two things.

(1) I think the people so far that have said Doncic is a ball handler and/or shooter don't watch the games because Jokic is just as much those things if not more. There is no spot on the floor he cannot get an assist from and no spot on the floor he won't take a 20 foot arching shot somehow finds a way. I don't believe that to be it.

(2) You must appreciate that for almost three full years, I owned about 70% of the entire Jokic high end RC market. I current have 61 of his 99 RPA's (his only RPA) and owned roughly 60% of all Prizm Silver and 70% of all Prizm color. I had more than 100 of the /199 blues, more than 200 of the /350 Rubies, more than 50% of the Gold / Mojo / White Sparkle, Orange and Purple as well. And the Black 1/1.

I say this because in doing this, it has an unintended negative effect on value. When you consider the threads on this board, and the "hype" ... there isn't any because nobody owns any. And I'm not a hype man so I don't post; and that lack of market share from the public hurts his value. It's undeniable IMHO but is starting to change as I've begun unloading all the Prizm, all the Silver PSA 10's and all the Prizm color. I'll hold onto about 200 Silvers and ~40 Immaculate RPA's but everything else goes. And when the market starts to take in some of the share, I think you'll start to see more action and better prices.

Not Doncic prices but much more comparable prices.

We have a winner.

[NeedChapmans]

That is so very, very true. Most people have never thought about that before. I too have collected something to where I owned the vast majority of all made.

When others don’t have and can’t get what they’d like to have, they stop talking about and chasing those items.

It’s painful letting PC items go to others at times, but it’s healthy for your PC to do so.

Yes; the demand starts to fade.

The conversation on this site is driven by those who have a stake in certain players. The people who create the threads are people who generally own $$$ in said player and you can tell who's in and who's out simply by the way they talk.

Other than YAGA, who I know is not a hype man himself (who also owns a good amount of Jokic outside Prizm and Immaculate); nobody else on this board is likely to own much. And it's why there was a thread created three years ago about Jokic, which I think has 3 pages and gets bumped once every couple of months.

If people on this board owned his cards, he's be a front page daily kind of player. And some of that is on me because I horded (in the way I know how).

[davemri]

Another thing to consider.. There are over 15K PSA 10 Prizm Luka's (26k total graded)vs. 500 Jokic (1100 total graded). I would think Jokic would be closer in price based on that alone.

[sebreg]

Jokic can pass from anywhere but the playmaking mold of penetrate and score/dish is a big difference. The use of the dribble as a weapon is more exciting to a lot of fans. Doncic has the creative ability with the ballhandling, Jokic does not have that same level.

[Dnic]

Another thing to consider.. There are over 15K PSA 10 Prizm Luka's (26k total graded)vs. 500 Jokic (1100 total graded). I would think Jokic would be closer in price based on that alone.

I think it's funny when people compare pop reports personally I don't care if Luka had 30k PSA 10 and Jokic still only had 500 I'm buying Luka everytime guys like Jokic while fun to watch just don't do it for me. Please refer to David Robinson and Tim Duncan both great players but as far as hobby value just not there.

[jcardstore]

I think Doncic has a chance to be the greatest player of all time. :coffee:

[IndianaCards]

Jokic can pass from anywhere but the playmaking mold of penetrate and score/dish is a big difference. The use of the dribble as a weapon is more exciting to a lot of fans. Doncic has the creative ability with the ballhandling, Jokic does not have that same level.

The fact that Jokic is still able to dish out that many assists in spite of this is a tribute to his skill, imo. Guy is crazy underrated.

[IndianaCards]

I think Doncic has a chance to be the greatest player of all time. :coffee:

That's a really spicy take. There's zero chance he will be considered better than Jordan or LeBron imo

[IndianaCards]

If he's to be the GOAT he better start winning titles like last year because athletically he isn't in the same stratosphere as Jordan or Bron. That body style isn't gonna hold up into his mid 30s, unless he makes some dramatic changes, which is possible.

[jcardstore]

That's a really spicy take. There's zero chance he will be considered better than Jordan or LeBron imo

That's fine. 90% of the board also told me there was a 0% chance he would be the best player in his draft class and well...

[jcardstore]

If he's to be the GOAT he better start winning titles like last year because athletically he isn't in the same stratosphere as Jordan or Bron. That body style isn't gonna hold up into his mid 30s, unless he makes some dramatic changes, which is possible.

lmao what? This doesn't even make any sense

[sebreg]

The fact that Jokic is still able to dish out that many assists in spite of this is a tribute to his skill, imo. Guy is crazy underrated.

Absolutely. Jokic is ridiculously skilled, I love him. I was just pointing out what I think is a difference in their games and that style-wise, if choosing, people will more often than not will gravitate to players who can create via ballhandling.

[Bruin7]

Jokic is only 25...high IQ (like Mensa smart) passing big man that can shoot from anywhere if he were allowed to. He is the one big man that can break the mold for collectors.

[Dnic]

If he's to be the GOAT he better start winning titles like last year because athletically he isn't in the same stratosphere as Jordan or Bron. That body style isn't gonna hold up into his mid 30s, unless he makes some dramatic changes, which is possible.

He is 21 and pending any major injury has atleast another 12-15 years I don't want to speculate on how many champions he can win but I guess we will see :D

[IndianaCards]

lmao what? This doesn't even make any senseI love when guys do this overly dramatic reply, like they're seriously unable to comprehend something that was clearly explained. I'll try again.

Guys with uber athletic body styles, i.e. physiques or athletic abilities, generally age better than pudgy dudes that look like they deliver pizzas for a living, not playing professional sports. That body style, naturally based on the laws of human physics and dynamics or lack thereof, isn't going to hold up as well as an athlete like Jordan or LeBron.

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[RedMike]

Buy them both.

[RedMike]

I love when guys do this overly dramatic reply, like they're seriously unable to comprehend something that was clearly explained. I'll try again.

Guys with uber athletic body styles, i.e. physiques or athletic abilities, generally age better than pudgy dudes that look like they deliver pizzas for a living, not playing professional sports. That body style, naturally based on the laws of human physics and dynamics or lack thereof, isn't going to hold up as well as an athlete like Jordan or LeBron.

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dirk and tim duncan.

I guess they aren't pudgy but the defo isn't athletic.

[Derekbauer]

Long term, Luka by a mile. But in the short term, Jokic is probably a better buy low(ish), sell high because the Nuggets are better suited to win an NBA title at the moment. At currently I would have Jokic as my MVP choice.

[PSA2Pac]

I think it's funny when people compare pop reports personally I don't care if Luka had 30k PSA 10 and Jokic still only had 500 I'm buying Luka everytime guys like Jokic while fun to watch just don't do it for me. Please refer to David Robinson and Tim Duncan both great players but as far as hobby value just not there.

This.

Its also what most people miss. Even in regards to this conversation.

I'm a die hard Nuggets fan, born and raised in Denver. I love Joker!! I also currently own 0% Jokic. I would own some and have looked, but, for what things are going for, I'd rather put most of my money into Doncic.

[IndianaCards]

dirk and tim duncan.

I guess they aren't pudgy but the defo isn't athletic.We're talking about being the GOAT, better than Jordan and LeBron. Those 2 dudes weren't dominating their game in their mid 30s, still athletically superior to essentially everyone. Luka won't be either, but those guys are probably safe comps for him in his 30s.

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[Scottish Punk]

I get what you are saying IndianaCards. He is already playing "old man" basketball. What I mean is that he plays at his pace, doesn't blow by anybody, stays below the rim, and exploits lots of different shooting/passing angles. This may help is longevity though, he isn't reliant on athletism to get his spots.

I just looked at his build, I didn't realize he is 6' 7''. I need to look closely the next game I watch.

[IndianaCards]

I get what you are saying IndianaCards. He is already playing "old man" basketball. What I mean is that he plays at his pace, doesn't blow by anybody, stays below the rim, and exploits lots of different shooting/passing angles. This may help is longevity though, he isn't reliant on athletism to get his spots.

I just looked at his build, I didn't realize he is 6' 7''. I need to look closely the next game I watch.Dude isn't the GOAT, and won't be, is all I'm saying. Jordan and LeBron were just cut from a different cloth. Could Luka be a Dirk or Larry Bird like legendary player? Absolutely. Best ever is an extremely hot take, that's gonna take 4-5 probably more titles and I just don't see it.

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[sebreg]

I get what you are saying IndianaCards. He is already playing "old man" basketball. What I mean is that he plays at his pace, doesn't blow by anybody, stays below the rim, and exploits lots of different shooting/passing angles. This may help is longevity though, he isn't reliant on athletism to get his spots.

I just looked at his build, I didn't realize he is 6' 7''. I need to look closely the next game I watch.

Conversely, if a player doesn't have elite athleticism, one can argue they have less margin as they age and lose their baseline athleticism. Guys like Luka/Harden don't have ridiculous athleticism so will be interesting to see how well their game ages as they lose a step. A lot of their playmaking might not be predicated on elite athleticism, but it does require a baseline level of athleticism (the ability to get by your man and dish/drive is a huge part of their playstyle).

[IndianaCards]

Conversely, if a player doesn't have elite athleticism, one can argue they have less margin as they age and lose their baseline athleticism. Guys like Luka/Harden don't have ridiculous athleticism so will be interesting to see how well their game ages as they lose a step. A lot of their playmaking might not be predicated on elite athleticism, but it does require a baseline level of athleticism (the ability to get by your man and dish/drive is a huge part of their playstyle).Exactly. I think Dirk is probably pretty spot on in terms of career arc, tho I think Dirk was slightly more athletic than Luka, he wasn't as skilled.

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[brock]

I think the issue is that Jokic is goofy and not aesthetically pleasing to watching. His shot is funky. He does too many rip throughs and foul hunts. He is very slow and seems to lumber around the court.

This isn't meant to minimize his skills, but rather explain why I have no emotional connection to him and don't want his cards.


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[daeve]

Yeah I'm gonna blame NeedChapmans for the dry Jokic market haha.

That's a really good point and I really don't think of that often - but it's very true re: the hype market.

Also it's painfully obvious a lot of people still don't watch Jokic regularly. Which isn't anyone's fault, but if your reasoning is "Jokic = big man", that's just 1) very outdated and 2) Not even the case anymore.

Jokic brings the ball up very often, he uses his ballhandling abilities [and his body] as a weapon. Yeah it's not as quick as a g/f would go, [though Doncic isn't 'quick' either] but he does use it as a weapon. It frees his game up so he can attack from the get-go / rebound without the defense being on high alert. And because he's now normalized the idea of him bringing the ball up and initiating the offense, we get highlights like this:

https://streamable.com/8ertul

Which is straight-up some Magic/Bird game. The man is truly a 'unicorn' when that label was being tossed around very often a few years ago. He's a 7' Point-Center and he is the primary distributor in the offense, he basically is the Denver offense.

[calculusdork]

Yeah I'm gonna blame NeedChapmans for the dry Jokic market haha.

That's a really good point and I really don't think of that often - but it's very true re: the hype market.

Also it's painfully obvious a lot of people still don't watch Jokic regularly. Which isn't anyone's fault, but if your reasoning is "Jokic = big man", that's just 1) very outdated and 2) Not even the case anymore.

Jokic brings the ball up very often, he uses his ballhandling abilities [and his body] as a weapon. Yeah it's not as quick as a g/f would go, [though Doncic isn't 'quick' either] but he does use it as a weapon. It frees his game up so he can attack from the get-go / rebound without the defense being on high alert. And because he's now normalized the idea of him bringing the ball up and initiating the offense, we get highlights like this:

https://streamable.com/8ertul

Which is straight-up some Magic/Bird game. The man is truly a 'unicorn' when that label was being tossed around very often a few years ago. He's a 7' Point-Center and he is the primary distributor in the offense, he basically is the Denver offense.

Haha, he ROASTED Naz Reid on that pass :cry:

[NeedChapmans]

Yeah I'm gonna blame NeedChapmans for the dry Jokic market haha.

That's a really good point and I really don't think of that often - but it's very true re: the hype market.

Also it's painfully obvious a lot of people still don't watch Jokic regularly. Which isn't anyone's fault, but if your reasoning is "Jokic = big man", that's just 1) very outdated and 2) Not even the case anymore.

Jokic brings the ball up very often, he uses his ballhandling abilities [and his body] as a weapon. Yeah it's not as quick as a g/f would go, [though Doncic isn't 'quick' either] but he does use it as a weapon. It frees his game up so he can attack from the get-go / rebound without the defense being on high alert. And because he's now normalized the idea of him bringing the ball up and initiating the offense, we get highlights like this:

https://streamable.com/8ertul

Which is straight-up some Magic/Bird game. The man is truly a 'unicorn' when that label was being tossed around very often a few years ago. He's a 7' Point-Center and he is the primary distributor in the offense, he basically is the Denver offense.

It's not just me, but it is partially.

Jokic doesn't get a lot of hype for a lot of other reasons too. He's in Denver, which is not a good market to be in for hype; and you won't find a lot written / created about him online or on TV.

He'll have to force his way onto the train. And he can do that one of two ways. Winning the '21 MVP or winning a title in the next couple of years. Outside of those two outcomes, he's always going to be a guy who takes a backseat to the more athletic, more hype driven talent in the league. Is this his year to break out, IDK but he's off to a good 10 game start.

[Vinny1984]

Also it's painfully obvious a lot of people still don't watch Jokic regularly. Which isn't anyone's fault, but if your reasoning is "Jokic = big man", that's just 1) very outdated and 2) Not even the case anymore.

While it is correct to say Jokic is not a big man with the way he plays (I’ve watched plenty and his “non-big man skills” are undeniable), the vast majority of collectors are not watching him play. He is viewed as a center. When assessing value in the card market, the most important variable is what the majority of the market thinks. The difference between hobby-good and basketball-good can be pretty vast in some situations.

[IndianaCards]

While it is correct to say Jokic is not a big man with the way he plays (I’ve watched plenty and his “non-big man skills” are undeniable), the vast majority of collectors are not watching him play. He is viewed as a center. When assessing value in the card market, the most important variable is what the majority of the market thinks. The difference between hobby-good and basketball-good can be pretty vast in some situations.Basketball good generally predicates hobby good tho, and is a surefire prerequisite for long term hobby value.

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[Vinny1984]

Basketball good generally predicates hobby good tho, and is a surefire prerequisite for long term hobby value.

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Not always. Not a whole lot of people are throwing money at Jason Kidd or John Stockton. Or more recently Brook Lopez or Patrick Beverley.

[GeechQuest]

Is the Jokic market dry like NC says?

Jokic Silver PSA 10s have moved through eBay more in the past year than say, Devin Booker (32 sales to 31), and more have moved over the past 3 months as well (10 sales to 8).

Seems like their pretty comparable in volume. Both have more sales than KAT.

Just doesn’t seem like the supply is dry relative to demand and THAT’S why his market isn’t “where it should be”.

[jcardstore]

I love when guys do this overly dramatic reply, like they're seriously unable to comprehend something that was clearly explained. I'll try again.

Guys with uber athletic body styles, i.e. physiques or athletic abilities, generally age better than pudgy dudes that look like they deliver pizzas for a living, not playing professional sports. That body style, naturally based on the laws of human physics and dynamics or lack thereof, isn't going to hold up as well as an athlete like Jordan or LeBron.

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Because he's not a super amazing athlete he's going to have a shorter career?

If you have a study or any sort of evidence to back up your claim I'd love to see it.

I'm guessing you don't.

[NeedChapmans]

Is the Jokic market dry like NC says?

Jokic Silver PSA 10s have moved through eBay more in the past year than say, Devin Booker (32 sales to 31), and more have moved over the past 3 months as well (10 sales to 8).

Seems like their pretty comparable in volume. Both have more sales than KAT.

Just doesn’t seem like the supply is dry relative to demand and THAT’S why his market isn’t “where it should be”.

Up until last week, I owned 68/111 PSA 10 Jokic Silvers. (I actually have sold 60 of them in the last 10 days).

Many of the sales you see are to me. But that's a touch besides the point; my argument is that strangling the market is/was a contributing factor, not the only factor; and it plays into the much larger issue discussed which is that Jokic simply isn't felt / hyped like others. Part of that, absolutely is that few to none on this board own anything of the man.

[IndianaCards]

Because he's not a super amazing athlete he's going to have a shorter career?



If you have a study or any sort of evidence to back up your claim I'd love to see it.



I'm guessing you don't.No buddy, I don't have scientific data to back it up. I think it's pretty clear, like someone above stated, there's a baseline athleticism that's required to compete at this level. You can look at guys like Dirk late in his career, or Jordan late with the Wizards. They were able to compete because they're both superbly skilled basketball players, but the dominance was all the way gone.

In order to be the GOAT, you're gonna have to be dominant into your mid 30s, in order to compile the resume necessary to dethrone guys like Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe. I don't think he wins any titles in Dallas, they just don't have the team to beat LeBron and AD in the short term. He's gonna have to get out of dodge to start compiling titles, if he doesn't have 2-3 by the time he's 30 its not happening. Again, he isn't athletically gifted enough to dominate like Mike and Bron into his mid 30s. Dominate, not compete. We're talking about the absolute pinnacle of professional basketball when you say he will be the best ever, there's no margin for error.

Bron isn't even done winning titles yet, and has showed zero signs of stopping/decline. He could win 2-3 more before he hangs em up, the bar is gonna be insanely high in the end, and even if LeBron wins nothing else the bar is astronomical with Mike's 6 titles. Mike should've had another title or 2 honestly if it wasn't for baseball and Jerry Kraus, but that's another topic altogether lol.

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[GeechQuest]

Up until last week, I owned 68/111 PSA 10 Jokic Silvers. (I actually have sold 60 of them in the last 10 days).

Many of the sales you see are to me. But that's a touch besides the point; my argument is that strangling the market is/was a contributing factor, not the only factor; and it plays into the much larger issue discussed which is that Jokic simply isn't felt / hyped like others. Part of that, absolutely is that few to none on this board own anything of the man.

But wouldn't you strangling the market and depleting the supply drive his prices higher because the supply is smaller?

Isn't the answer just as simple as Jokic is a big man and they, historically, don't get the hobby love. This leads to less hype because what is there to hype? Embiid doesn't get a hype thread on the forums either. Nor does Kat. Anthony Davis' hype thread may be 23 responses long. It's just because these are big guys and not flashy guards.

It seems like fewer people have Devin Booker cards (or at least aren't selling them), but it hasn't hurt his market whatsoever. In fact many would say guys like Gary hoarding are what DROVE the Booker market.

I guess I just fail to see the logic. Few people own it because few people want it, which is also how you were able to acquire so many. By few, I mean relative to other guys like Booker (same class) and Doncic (same thread).

[Bruin7]

His Select Prizm is oddly low pop. Only have one in the collection.

[Vinny1984]

Because he's not a super amazing athlete he's going to have a shorter career?

If you have a study or any sort of evidence to back up your claim I'd love to see it.

I'm guessing you don't.

Man, I swear every one of your posts is a backhanded attempt to belittle someone else’s intelligence. They’re called opinions for a reason. Not everything has to have 17 pages of data analysis. If that’s how you operate, you do you. I’m sure you’re a smart guy. You don’t need to prove it.

[Derekbauer]

No buddy, I don't have scientific data to back it up. I think it's pretty clear, like someone above stated, there's a baseline athleticism that's required to compete at this level. You can look at guys like Dirk late in his career, or Jordan late with the Wizards. They were able to compete because they're both superbly skilled basketball players, but the dominance was all the way gone.

In order to be the GOAT, you're gonna have to be dominant into your mid 30s, in order to compile the resume necessary to dethrone guys like Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe. I don't think he wins any titles in Dallas, they just don't have the team to beat LeBron and AD in the short term. He's gonna have to get out of dodge to start compiling titles, if he doesn't have 2-3 by the time he's 30 its not happening. Again, he isn't athletically gifted enough to dominate like Mike and Bron into his mid 30s. Dominate, not compete. We're talking about the absolute pinnacle of professional basketball when you say he will be the best ever, there's no margin for error.

Bron isn't even done winning titles yet, and has showed zero signs of stopping/decline. He could win 2-3 more before he hangs em up, the bar is gonna be insanely high in the end, and even if LeBron wins nothing else the bar is astronomical with Mike's 6 titles. Mike should've had another title or 2 honestly if it wasn't for baseball and Jerry Kraus, but that's another topic altogether lol.

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Dude is 21 and no chance Cuban won’t spend every dollar possible to build him a championship roster. He will be a Mav for life barring something catastrophic.

When Luka is paired with a future hall of famer like MJ and Lebron were to win their titles then the Mavs become the instant favorite.

[jcardstore]

Man, I swear every one of your posts is a backhanded attempt to belittle someone else’s intelligence. They’re called opinions for a reason. Not everything has to have 17 pages of data analysis. If that’s how you operate, you do you. I’m sure you’re a smart guy. You don’t need to prove it.

If you say something matter-of-factly like "players with x body style have shorter careers than uber athletes" you need to have actual data to back that up.

That's not an opinion.

[mc1]

That's not an opinion.

Thats your opinion.

[IndianaCards]

Dude is 21 and no chance Cuban won’t spend every dollar possible to build him a championship roster. He will be a Mav for life barring something catastrophic.



When Luka is paired with a future hall of famer like MJ and Lebron were to win their titles then the Mavs become the instant favorite.I'd bet almost anything that dude leaves Dallas. While it's a large market, it's nothing on the big boy markets with huge fan bases. In order to win the titles necessary to be in the conversation he's gonna have to have a lot of help, and I don't see superstars scrambling to go to Dallas.

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[Derekbauer]

I'd bet almost anything that dude leaves Dallas. While it's a large market, it's nothing on the big boy markets with huge fan bases. In order to win the titles necessary to be in the conversation he's gonna have to have a lot of help, and I don't see superstars scrambling to go to Dallas.

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I mean I understand your market argument. Cant argue that it’s not the biggest market, but not everyone is chasing that allure. Looking at the careers of the overseas players they seem less likely to bolt their franchises for more fame.

Doncics popularity has less to do with where he plays than almost every player in the game. Europeans could care less if he plays for dallas or the knicks. At least that’s my opinion.

[IndianaCards]

If you say something matter-of-factly like "players with x body style have shorter careers than uber athletes" you need to have actual data to back that up.



That's not an opinion.It is a fact, there's been like 1 player to dominate into his mid 30s, and that's LeBron. Jordan was just such a beast he compiled his mountain of titles before he hit that age range.

You're saying one of two things is gonna happen, because nobody will be in the conversation with Mike -Lebron included- until they compile the requisite number of championships. 1) He's gonna go on a Michael Jordan style run and just dominate for 8-10 years winning way more titles than not, or B) He's gonna maintain his dominance into his mid to late 30s, compiling enough championships along the way.

Good luck on those.

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[mbuch21]

I own a looooot of Jokic (Not NeedChapmans stratosphere but a looooot by normal market standards).
I also watch a ridiculous amount of Denver. I believe with 100% certainty that Jokic’s talent is generational and he will ECLIPSE Wilt on career triple doubles for a center and over the long run, his hobby love will appreciate.
The trajectory here is 150+ triple doubles (3rd all time behind Robinson and Westbrook), 12x all star, 5-7x All NBA and MVP runner up, and somewhere down the line, he will join a big-3 and win a ring or two, because anybody in their right mind (cough, Luka) will want Joker as their championship big man.
But all of this isn’t going to happen overnight. It’s going to be an upward slope that lasts 10 years. Patience is going to be a key. There will be ups (like now) and downs (like the end of the season when Denver won’t make the playoffs) along the way.

[IndianaCards]

I mean I understand your market argument. Cant argue that it’s not the biggest market, but not everyone is chasing that allure. Looking at the careers of the overseas players they seem less likely to bolt their franchises for more fame.



Doncics popularity has less to do with where he plays than almost every player in the game. Europeans could care less if he plays for dallas or the knicks. At least that’s my opinion.It's not about him staying, it's about getting superstar players to join him in Dallas. It doesn't matter how good a guy is, you have to have either A) A great team (i.e. Spurs 2000s) or B) Multiple dominant players (i.e. 1998-99 Lakers, 2007-9 Heat).

I guess A is possible, but they most certainly aren't there yet.

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[Derekbauer]

It's not about him staying, it's about getting superstar players to join him in Dallas. It doesn't matter how good a guy is, you have to have either A) A great team (i.e. Spurs 2000s) or B) Multiple dominant players (i.e. 1998-99 Lakers, 2007-9 Heat).

I guess A is possible, but they most certainly aren't there yet.

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When they have cap available, I would be very very surprised if they weren’t able to land a superstar. Some guys just want to win.

[IndianaCards]

When they have cap available, I would be very very surprised if they weren’t able to land a superstar. Some guys just want to win.Look, I'd love to see it, I love competition and greatness. If I had to bet tho, my bet is going on Luka leaving Dallas to win some titles. It won't be about money, he's getting the max regardless.

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[jcardstore]

It is a fact, there's been like 1 player to dominate into his mid 30s, and that's LeBron. Jordan was just such a beast he compiled his mountain of titles before he hit that age range.

You're saying one of two things is gonna happen, because nobody will be in the conversation with Mike -Lebron included- until they compile the requisite number of championships. 1) He's gonna go on a Michael Jordan style run and just dominate for 8-10 years winning way more titles than not, or B) He's gonna maintain his dominance into his mid to late 30s, compiling enough championships along the way.

Good luck on those.

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So if it's an objective fact you need data to back that up, which you don't have.

Idc whether you think he's gonna be the goat or not, that's your opinion but to say he has a 0% chance because he's not athletic enough to have a long career is laughable at best.

[Derekbauer]

Look, I'd love to see it, I love competition and greatness. If I had to bet tho, my bet is going on Luka leaving Dallas to win some titles. It won't be about money, he's getting the max regardless.

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We shall see. Would be surprised myself, but hey I’ve been surprised before!

[NeedChapmans]

But wouldn't you strangling the market and depleting the supply drive his prices higher because the supply is smaller?

Isn't the answer just as simple as Jokic is a big man and they, historically, don't get the hobby love. This leads to less hype because what is there to hype? Embiid doesn't get a hype thread on the forums either. Nor does Kat. Anthony Davis' hype thread may be 23 responses long. It's just because these are big guys and not flashy guards.

It seems like fewer people have Devin Booker cards (or at least aren't selling them), but it hasn't hurt his market whatsoever. In fact many would say guys like Gary hoarding are what DROVE the Booker market.

I guess I just fail to see the logic. Few people own it because few people want it, which is also how you were able to acquire so many. By few, I mean relative to other guys like Booker (same class) and Doncic (same thread).

Here in lies a key point to the rub.

I'm not a hype man. I'm extremely low-key in my collections; I don't push them, publish them, promote them. I recognize that this is a flaw in the way which I hope to gain value in my investments but it's not in me to spend the time in doing that; or my nature to do it.

I am 100% absolutely positive that if GV or VD owned what I did in Jokic and promoted it the way they have promoted their other collections; Jokic would have more value than he has today. Undeniable.

[KhalDrogo]

Joker is amazing. Hope he joins Luka in a few years.

[Dnic]

Here in lies a key point to the rub.

I'm not a hype man. I'm extremely low-key in my collections; I don't push them, publish them, promote them. I recognize that this is a flaw in the way which I hope to gain value in my investments but it's not in me to spend the time in doing that; or my nature to do it.

I am 100% absolutely positive that if GV or VD owned what I did in Jokic and promoted it the way they have promoted their other collections; Jokic would have more value than he has today. Undeniable.

I could be mistaken but wasn't you the one that was "hyping" Blake Bortles a few years ago :confused: And I also remember a hype Jokic thread before as well.....

[IndianaCards]

I could be mistaken but wasn't you the one that was "hyping" Blake Bortles a few years ago :confused: And I also remember a hype Jokic thread before as well.....Uh oh lol

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[fitch123]

Joker is a PF. End thread.

Zion is a PF...

[k13]

I think Doncic has a chance to be the greatest player of all time. :coffee:

He's the worst 3point shooter in the NBA right now.
He's getting worse.
He's already peaked.
He can't carry a team.
Just a stat padder like most of the NBA.

[pejc300]

Two things.

(1) I think the people so far that have said Doncic is a ball handler and/or shooter don't watch the games because Jokic is just as much those things if not more. There is no spot on the floor he cannot get an assist from and no spot on the floor he won't take a 20 foot arching shot somehow finds a way. I don't believe that to be it.

(2) You must appreciate that for almost three full years, I owned about 70% of the entire Jokic high end RC market. I current have 61 of his 99 RPA's (his only RPA) and owned roughly 60% of all Prizm Silver and 70% of all Prizm color. I had more than 100 of the /199 blues, more than 200 of the /350 Rubies, more than 50% of the Gold / Mojo / White Sparkle, Orange and Purple as well. And the Black 1/1.

I say this because in doing this, it has an unintended negative effect on value. When you consider the threads on this board, and the "hype" ... there isn't any because nobody owns any. And I'm not a hype man so I don't post; and that lack of market share from the public hurts his value. It's undeniable IMHO but is starting to change as I've begun unloading all the Prizm, all the Silver PSA 10's and all the Prizm color. I'll hold onto about 200 Silvers and ~40 Immaculate RPA's but everything else goes. And when the market starts to take in some of the share, I think you'll start to see more action and better prices.

Not Doncic prices but much more comparable prices.

If you look at the definition of humblebrag in the dictionary it will lead you to this post. But I don't even care, because that's freaking amazing. Chapmans, you never cease to amaze me with your card prowess and vision. Well done man.

[NeedChapmans]

I could be mistaken but wasn't you the one that was "hyping" Blake Bortles a few years ago :confused: And I also remember a hype Jokic thread before as well.....

This man sticks to me like some kind of bad penny.

But no. You mistake hype with having a few posts discussing why I invest in a player. I don't have social media, I don't go to shows, I don't do anything other than discuss in a thread (like this) why or why now I've invested.

There is a Joker thread. It has 62 posts and is two years old. I do have three posts in there over two years. Hype train baby!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1267313&highlight=Jokic

[k13]

Hype sells. Young prospects.
Obviously just looking at numbers that's a different story.
Then zion/trea/luka would not sell that great.
In 5-7years that will change.

They'll just be old played out stars like Blake griffin and John wall.

[NeedChapmans]

If you look at the definition of humblebrag in the dictionary it will lead you to this post. But I don't even care, because that's freaking amazing. Chapmans, you never cease to amaze me with your card prowess and vision. Well done man.

I think in this particular instance, it adds valuable context. Today's releases don't really allow for such a market capitalization because there are thousands upon thousands of "shares" where the supply is overwhelming.

But for a '15 second round pick with limited releases and print runs; it was much more attainable to own a lions share. I have absolutely zero complaints and of course w/ my bias, I'll be the first to tell you Jokic is criminally undervalued for a variety of reasons; but one of those reasons, I believe, is my very own doing (and lack of doing).

[KhalDrogo]

Zion is a PF...
The two are not mutually exclusive.

Zion is a hobby superstar despite being a PF.

Joker is not a hobby superstar because he is a PF.

If Joker spent a year wrecking the NCAA at Duke in a way we haven’t seen in decades, he could be a hobby superstar too.

[k13]

Tatum is just as good if not better. More athletic. Plays on Celtics. Less overproduced cards.
He'll pass Luka in the future barring injuries.

[Dnic]

This man sticks to me like some kind of bad penny.

But no. You mistake hype with having a few posts discussing why I invest in a player. I don't have social media, I don't go to shows, I don't do anything other than discuss in a thread (like this) why or why now I've invested.

There is a Joker thread. It has 62 posts and is two years old. I do have three posts in there over two years. Hype train baby!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1267313&highlight=Jokic

All I'm saying is don't claim to never try to "hype" someone and you have lol 😂😂😂

[NeedChapmans]

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Zion is a hobby superstar despite being a PF.

Joker is not a hobby superstar because he is a PF.

If Joker spent a year wrecking the NCAA at Duke in a way we haven’t seen in decades, he could be a hobby superstar too.

99% of the NCAA Zion played against in the NCAA is working in the insurance business right now.

100% of the NBA Jokic plays against right now is the best of the best.

I'm not arguing your point but it is amazing to me that the former is more valuable than the latter. Logic of value will break you if you let it, but you must accept the statement as reality and work within it to be successful.

[pejc300]

I think in this particular instance, it adds valuable context. Today's releases don't really allow for such a market capitalization because there are thousands upon thousands of "shares" where the supply is overwhelming.

But for a '15 second round pick with limited releases and print runs; it was much more attainable to own a lions share. I have absolutely zero complaints and of course w/ my bias, I'll be the first to tell you Jokic is criminally undervalued for a variety of reasons; but one of those reasons, I believe, is my very own doing (and lack of doing).

You are the first person I ever really saw hoard a player/card (Lebron Topps Chrome), although I think you were maybe doing it with Chapman before I was back into cards. I know you've had some misses (Moncrief, at least I'm assuming) and maybe you don't advertise those, but I know you've said many times (and no one listens) that you made good money even on Bortles. Your strategy has helped me over the years, and I have never seen you pump your stuff like others do. I appreciate your analysis on the Jokic situation and I look forward to (not) hearing about who you funnel that insane money you just made to next.

[NeedChapmans]

All I'm saying is don't claim to never try to "hype" someone and you have lol 😂😂😂

If you want to die on the sword of "anything positive you say about someone is hype" than I concede.

But I've always been clinical for why I invest in a player and try to explain it openly because I think it leads to interesting discussion and ultimately helps me think of things I haven't thought of. Starting on here 8 years ago, I can tell you I've learned a mountain about this industry/market, simply by continuing to fail and talking about my constant failures.

[KhalDrogo]

99% of the NCAA Zion played against in the NCAA is working in the insurance business right now.

100% of the NBA Jokic plays against right now is the best of the best.

I'm not arguing your point but it is amazing to me that the former is more valuable than the latter. Logic of value will break you if you let it, but you must accept the statement as reality and work within it to be successful.
Have to build your hype/collector base somewhere. Zion was able to do that not necessarily in high school, but in the months leading up to the 2018-19 season. RJB and Reddish were both rated higher that year. YouTube videos of Zion that offseason and at Midnight Madness, then Duke crushing Kentucky in the opener got Zion to where he is now. Joker has never had that.

[mbuch21]

If you want to die on the sword of "anything positive you say about someone is hype" than I concede.

But I've always been clinical for why I invest in a player and try to explain it openly because I think it leads to interesting discussion and ultimately helps me think of things I haven't thought of. Starting on here 8 years ago, I can tell you I've learned a mountain about this industry/market, simply by continuing to fail and talking about my constant failures.


The ceiling on Zion is marginally higher.
The floor on Jokic is substantially higher.

[GeechQuest]

Here in lies a key point to the rub.

I'm not a hype man. I'm extremely low-key in my collections; I don't push them, publish them, promote them. I recognize that this is a flaw in the way which I hope to gain value in my investments but it's not in me to spend the time in doing that; or my nature to do it.

I am 100% absolutely positive that if GV or VD owned what I did in Jokic and promoted it the way they have promoted their other collections; Jokic would have more value than he has today. Undeniable.

I’m positive if those guys hyped Jokic he’d be worth more too, but that wasn’t the point.

The point was Jokic isn’t as “valuable” because you’ve hoarded the supply. Hoarding supply is actually another way of causing spikes in value—-see almost every other instance in this hobby.

Hell, you’re the original hobby hoarder! You know this.

Jokic isn’t “valuable” like other players because he’s a big man. That’s it.

[NeedChapmans]

You are the first person I ever really saw hoard a player/card (Lebron Topps Chrome), although I think you were maybe doing it with Chapman before I was back into cards. I know you've had some misses (Moncrief, at least I'm assuming) and maybe you don't advertise those, but I know you've said many times (and no one listens) that you made good money even on Bortles. Your strategy has helped me over the years, and I have never seen you pump your stuff like others do. I appreciate your analysis on the Jokic situation and I look forward to (not) hearing about who you funnel that insane money you just made to next.

Don't count your chickens on that one.

Was just discussing w/ a friend that Jokic may be my end game. Goals may be reached and thus I have to figure out if it funnels into someone else, or something else.

But I apprecaite the kind words. Jose Fernandez, Oscar Taveras, Henry Owens, Donte Moncrief, Tyler Austin, Zack Wheeler, Tony Cingrani, Mike Zunino (probably Luis Severino unless he finds his health post TJ surgery). Quarter million in losses there combined.

Then take Jokic. At my peak a few months ago I had 369 Silver Prizm RC's of various grades for an average cost basis of $78 a piece. Failure sucks but in context, all you have to do is to be right once in a while and watch the $$ fly. Value in this space, and in the NBA specifically is there if you want it.

[MIRRABB]

99% of the NCAA Zion played against in the NCAA is working in the insurance business right now.

100% of the NBA Jokic plays against right now is the best of the best.

I'm not arguing your point but it is amazing to me that the former is more valuable than the latter. Logic of value will break you if you let it, but you must accept the statement as reality and work within it to be successful.

Agreed, I would add the manner in which a player enters the hobby is crucially important, regardless of how good the player actually is. Jokic as a second round pick out of Serbia, had such an uphill battle to gain any hobby relevance. The vast majority of players peak in hobby value their rookie or second year, so it's such an important jumping off point for where their value can go long term.

[IndianaCards]

One day soon (it's already happening, honestly) people holding Zion are gonna realize he isn't the transcendent superstar he was thought to be, and that market is gonna take a significant dive. His cards to start the year were climbing like crazy, they've done nothing but drop since then, every chart on the planet shows that. I feel for the people that are heavily invested. How can you be that big and athletic and not rebound the sh*t outta the ball? Someone needs to sit him down and make him binge Charles Barkley "tape".

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[sethc1020]

I love both players

[NeedChapmans]

I’m positive if those guys hyped Jokic he’d be worth more too, but that wasn’t the point.

The point was Jokic isn’t as “valuable” because you’ve hoarded the supply. Hoarding supply is actually another way of causing spikes in value—-see almost every other instance in this hobby.

Hell, you’re the original hobby hoarder! You know this.

Jokic isn’t “valuable” like other players because he’s a big man. That’s it.

Jokic isn't valuable because he's not hyped. Why he isn't hyped is open to all kinds of interpretations. Big man maybe, supply maybe, Denver maybe, unathletic maybe ... it's open to interpretation.

But you conceded my point a bit yes? Because I'VE hoarded the supply. I have no followers, no megaphone, no desire to have those things and thus, contribute zero to the hype. Also, taking the supply out of the hands of those that could hype certainly doesn't help.

[IndianaCards]

Don't count your chickens on that one.



Was just discussing w/ a friend that Jokic may be my end game. Goals may be reached and thus I have to figure out if it funnels into someone else, or something else.



But I apprecaite the kind words. Jose Fernandez, Oscar Taveras, Henry Owens, Donte Moncrief, Tyler Austin, Zack Wheeler, Tony Cingrani, Mike Zunino (probably Luis Severino unless he finds his health post TJ surgery). Quarter million in losses there combined.



Then take Jokic. At my peak a few months ago I had 369 Silver Prizm RC's of various grades for an average cost basis of $78 a piece. Failure sucks but in context, all you have to do is to be right once in a while and watch the $$ fly. Value in this space, and in the NBA specifically is there if you want it.This. Geoff Wilson, Gary Vee, and other investors see what's happening in the hobby and it's causing huge amounts of money to funnel into the hobby. When they create what's essentially a hobby card mutual fund on a major scale you know this thing is here to stay. I'm glad I got back in when I did, this thing is gonna produce really steady gains in the coming years, there's a ton of money to be made if you have the ambition and diligence.

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[NeedChapmans]

One day soon (it's already happening, honestly) people holding Zion are gonna realize he isn't the transcendent superstar he was thought to be, and that market is gonna take a significant dive. His cards to start the year were climbing like crazy, they've done nothing but drop since then, every chart on the planet shows that. I feel for the people that are heavily invested. How can you be that big and athletic and not rebound the sh*t outta the ball? Someone needs to sit him down and make him binge Charles Barkley "tape".

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The bolded is true. I think I stated such in the Zion thread, so long as that's possible, value will rise. Once buyers and sellers collectively realize this is not true, value will begin to fall. But this is true of every young superstar today. They can't all be the biggest star of the generation and once the market realizes it, values will move accordingly.

Not because of print runs, or scarcity, or stats, or much anything else. This idea is the primary driver of all value, in all sports. The next Brady, the next Trout, the next LeBron / Jordan, the next Gretzky.

[Spacemanspif]

Two things.

(1) I think the people so far that have said Doncic is a ball handler and/or shooter don't watch the games because Jokic is just as much those things if not more. There is no spot on the floor he cannot get an assist from and no spot on the floor he won't take a 20 foot arching shot somehow finds a way. I don't believe that to be it.

(2) You must appreciate that for almost three full years, I owned about 70% of the entire Jokic high end RC market. I current have 61 of his 99 RPA's (his only RPA) and owned roughly 60% of all Prizm Silver and 70% of all Prizm color. I had more than 100 of the /199 blues, more than 200 of the /350 Rubies, more than 50% of the Gold / Mojo / White Sparkle, Orange and Purple as well. And the Black 1/1.

I say this because in doing this, it has an unintended negative effect on value. When you consider the threads on this board, and the "hype" ... there isn't any because nobody owns any. And I'm not a hype man so I don't post; and that lack of market share from the public hurts his value. It's undeniable IMHO but is starting to change as I've begun unloading all the Prizm, all the Silver PSA 10's and all the Prizm color. I'll hold onto about 200 Silvers and ~40 Immaculate RPA's but everything else goes. And when the market starts to take in some of the share, I think you'll start to see more action and better prices.

Not Doncic prices but much more comparable prices.

Wow 4 pages in just one morning? And I see it brought out all the Luka circle jerk hype beasts, well done!

I think the whole point of "unavailable to the public" is a good one, and while it's been discussed marginally in the Retail vs Hobby discussion, I don't think we've ever been able to see it play out in reality (because nobody has the ability to actually monopolize a market with wax). For those that don't know what I'm talking about, the discussion basically circles around why Prizm / Optic, which are available in both Retail and Hobby, are miles ahead of Hobby-only products like Select or Revolution, or even (formerly) Retail-only products like Donruss or Hoops. If you're not in people's saved searches, you don't get bought. I have one Silver (definitely not a 10) and one Spectra auto (semi RPA?), but after that I gave up on trying to find Jokic cards.

I agree that Jokic is undervalued, but I think in addition to being a big man, and the general lack of availability, being from the 2013-2015 era hurts. I feel like those years were pretty dead in terms of hobby darlings (until Giannis blew up), so it's going to be tough to stir up momentum in a player unless you have a Gary V hype machine behind it. Luka being a perimeter player and widely available helps both for stylistic / hobby purposes, and being available in so many products let people in at various price points, so no matter what they can tell themselves they "bought low" and made a smart decision.

Anyway, I'd love to see some of those Jokic Immac RPAs, I'm not even sure I've ever seen one. And if/when you decide to move some I'd be interested.

[GeechQuest]

Jokic isn't valuable because he's not hyped. Why he isn't hyped is open to all kinds of interpretations. Big man maybe, supply maybe, Denver maybe, unathletic maybe ... it's open to interpretation.

But you conceded my point a bit yes? Because I'VE hoarded the supply. I have no followers, no megaphone, no desire to have those things and thus, contribute zero to the hype. Also, taking the supply out of the hands of those that could hype certainly doesn't help.

But again, while you have hoarded quite an impressive amount, you haven’t taken the supply out of peoples hands. He’s sold more than Devin Booker in the past year (PSA 10 Silvers). Quite the fear considering Booker Silver 10s sell for considerably more, Booker has been hyped, AND Booker’s silver pop is about 50% greater.

So while we can all speculate as to why Jokic isn’t hyped and why his prices aren’t high, I think it’s completely safe to say it’s not because you’ve hoarded and so his stuff doesn’t sell through, which was point 2 on your post and isn’t backed by the reality of eBay completed sales.

Full disclosure: I’ve also sold Jokic PSA Prizms (Color down to base) in the last year.

[NeedChapmans]

But again, while you have hoarded quite an impressive amount, you haven’t taken the supply out of peoples hands. He’s sold more than Devin Booker in the past year (PSA 10 Silvers). Quite the fear considering Booker Silver 10s sell for considerably more, Booker has been hyped, AND Booker’s silver pop is about 50% greater.

So while we can all speculate as to why Jokic isn’t hyped and why his prices aren’t high, I think it’s completely safe to say it’s not because you’ve hoarded and so his stuff doesn’t sell through, which was point 2 on your post and isn’t backed by the reality of eBay completed sales.

Full disclosure: I’ve also sold Jokic PSA Prizms (Color down to base) in the last year.

I have a hard time believing that something is as finite as you suggest because of one small anecdote.

31 PSA 10 Silver Prizms sold over 12 months when compared to Devin Booker. It certainly a piece of evidence to strengthen your argument but it can't be the whole argument IMHO.

[GeechQuest]

I have a hard time believing that something is as finite as you suggest because of one small anecdote.

31 PSA 10 Silver Prizms sold over 12 months when compared to Devin Booker. It certainly a piece of evidence to strengthen your argument but it can't be the whole argument IMHO.

That's fair, but it's not just one small anecdote.

Supply vs Demand is a fairly universally accepted truth.

You have the majority of the supply, but the demand isn't there.

The supply for Booker is pretty similar, but the demand is there.

I just don't think you can say the demand isn't there for Jokic because you have an inordinate amount of supply. I think that's a silly assumption. I'm also an idiot compared to you so I'm probably completely off base. It hasn't stopped the desire for Booker, KAT, and others from the 2015 class who have had fewer public sales of their Prizm cards.


What I'm more interested in is why you chose to go the way you did with Jokic. I think that's compelling. I'd love to know how much you put into Jokic total and what else you could have purchased instead and see where you're at.

Only peaks my interest because I'm pretty positive that, as great as the incremental rise in ALL cards has been, the guys atop the hobby Mount Rushmore have seen rises that exceed the rookie Prizm plays.

[LeonfromNC]

Maybe because jokic is not as handsome and doncic has the hotter mom?

[yiguiri2002]

I think using Silvers is a bad example. Even with everything being hoarded, the print run was big enough that year to have a decent balance between supply and demand for Jokic. Some of his more limited cards should be a different story. I won't be shocked if the multiplier for those is bigger.

Also, bare in mind that a lot of people are hoarding/collecting for good. I assume at least 20% of the print run for guys like Booker are not moving hands in the short run.

[dbpsooner]

I rarely come into the basketball forum as I am not much of an NBA fan. I am glad I did today, as this thread has been extremely enjoyable/thought provoking. I know I certainly appreciate the openness and honesty shared by some in here. To me this is an excellent case study which does present a lot of interesting questions.

[Chris P]

When they have cap available, I would be very very surprised if they weren’t able to land a superstar. Some guys just want to win.

This is a real problem though with Dallas, and it always has been, I know Dirk isn't Luka but he's still an all time great and they could never attract any big name free agents during his 20 years as a Mav. They were linked to them all, but outside of a meeting none of them ever came. Already people were salivating at the idea of Giannis and Luka together and that door slammed shut. I really hope guys would want to play with him and but it's definitely easier said than done

[Derekbauer]

This is a real problem though with Dallas, and it always has been, I know Dirk isn't Luka but he's still an all time great and they could never attract any big name free agents during his 20 years as a Mav. They were linked to them all, but outside of a meeting none of them ever came. Already people were salivating at the idea of Giannis and Luka together and that door slammed shut. I really hope guys would want to play with him and but it's definitely easier said than done

I don’t know the Mavs history too well, admittedly, but I think the overall NBA is way different now as it comes to free agency. Short, SUPER lucrative, player friendly contracts allow the superstars to move around the league more freely. And as we’ve seen sometimes these guys don’t even last two years on a max deal. I can’t speak for how the other players view Luka but you would think a few of them would be all aboard to put together a dynasty right?

[daeve]

Jokic adding his name to more exclusive clubs

Jokic joins Oscar Robertson as the only 2 players to record more than 200 points, 100 assists and 100 rebounds in their first 10 games.

Westbrook was some rebounds shy in 16-17.

To me this adds to the "he's not your typical big man" if you watch him or even look at his stats, he's extremely unique and is just going to keep adding to it, especially once he blows by Wilt's triple-double totals while still in his 20s.

[mbuch21]

Jokic adding his name to more exclusive clubs



Westbrook was some rebounds shy in 16-17.

To me this adds to the "he's not your typical big man" if you watch him or even look at his stats, he's extremely unique and is just going to keep adding to it, especially once he blows by Wilt's triple-double totals while still in his 20s.


He’s going to pass Wilt’s triple doubles this season. That leaves 3 more years in his 20s to gain ground on an aging Westbrook (though he’s not yet showing it). That’s the real chase.

[sebreg]

Agreed, I would add the manner in which a player enters the hobby is crucially important, regardless of how good the player actually is. Jokic as a second round pick out of Serbia, had such an uphill battle to gain any hobby relevance. The vast majority of players peak in hobby value their rookie or second year, so it's such an important jumping off point for where their value can go long term.

That's a good point. Those factors along with Jokic being a big-man I think have been some of the biggest hurdles.

[bberns]

So if it's an objective fact you need data to back that up, which you don't have.

Idc whether you think he's gonna be the goat or not, that's your opinion but to say he has a 0% chance because he's not athletic enough to have a long career is laughable at best.

I was with you back when you called Luka's greatness 1.5 years ago. In fact, I'm on record in one of the threads saying that he would make 2nd team all-NBA before last season started.

However, he's not a good defender. GOAT status requires elite two-way play. Not going to happen.

[Campbelljh3]

I think Doncic has a chance to be the greatest player of all time. :coffee:

Agreed!

MJ will always be one of the best!

Lebron doesn’t deserve to be in conversation with MJ. Soooo overrated

[LovelyLlamas]

I still remember buying two Jokic silvers for $1 after a good game in his rookie year. His stuff was crazy cheap and I’m kicking myself for not buying more. He only really started to spike after the 40-point game in MSG back in 2017 when he outplayed Porzingis. Jokic was still cheap after that but you really didn’t find his rookies in the dollar bins anymore. It’s nice to see more people paying attention to him now because he’s pretty much been amazing since his rookie year.

[daeve]

since a lot of the Jokic bigwigs are viewing this thread, figure this might be a good place to ask... anyone seen or owned one of these?

https://i.imgur.com/08MMPa1l.jpg

This was the only 'high-end' Jokic I bought early, probably for around $150ish iirc. It had a weird 'rough patch' on the surface and then I sold it for a very modest profit probably early in 2018. I'm pretty sure he only inscribed 'Serbia' on the gold /10 variation, and though I haven't actively been looking, I think I only saw 1 other around the time I bought mine shortly after release.

[ninjacookies]

One is a big man. The other is not. So the value discrepancy will remain, unless Lulu suddenly wakes up and forgets how2basketbol.

[mbuch21]

since a lot of the Jokic bigwigs are viewing this thread, figure this might be a good place to ask... anyone seen or owned one of these?

https://i.imgur.com/08MMPa1l.jpg

This was the only 'high-end' Jokic I bought early, probably for around $150ish iirc. It had a weird 'rough patch' on the surface and then I sold it for a very modest profit probably early in 2018. I'm pretty sure he only inscribed 'Serbia' on the gold /10 variation, and though I haven't actively been looking, I think I only saw 1 other around the time I bought mine shortly after release.


Mine is numbered /75. Doesn’t say Serbia.
I believe there is one up on eBay at the moment that does. Not going to get it for $150 though [emoji12]

[daeve]

Mine is numbered /75. Doesn’t say Serbia.
I believe there is one up on eBay at the moment that does. Not going to get it for $150 though [emoji12]

Ah yes, looks like one of the industry / aftermarket 1/1's ... Those aren't my favorite chases, but thanks for mentioning it as I broadened my search to find it.

Will be interesting to see what it goes for, though I'd much rather have the pack-inserted gold /10 and I think most others would agree. It is good to note though, so now we know there's definitely more than 10 with the Serbia inscription.

[sickmantz]

(Edit: This is from a hobby perspective).

Doncic has 3 things over Jokic.

1) Doncic scores more/more consistently
2) Jokic is not an attractive man (straight men still prefer a guy who's nice to look at - eg. professional wrestling)
3) Doncic is not a center

The only tangible on-court difference among those things is #1 and it's marginal.

I don't really understand the problem with #3. If you can ball, you can ball. The NBA is the most positionless its ever been. The only reason Jokic plays center is cuz he's huge.

[daeve]

It's early, but Raptor has a pretty clear favorite this year

https://i.imgur.com/VxrRSDhl.png

[kellmuff]

if you bought Jokic like a month ago you'd be making money. His prices are crazy now.

[daeve]

if you bought Jokic like a month ago you'd be making money. His prices are crazy now.

crazy or just corrected? He's a top 6 player, I'd argue possibly higher but top 6 at this point is pretty definite. I sold a PSA 10 Prizm through a cosignor that got bumped from a September to an October auction, and it sold for under $300 - yeah I wasn't pleased, when I submitted it they were closer to $500. While at that same time Murray was selling for $550-650 and that continued into mid December.

Jokic is by far the better player, so that was due to be corrected and it finally is.

[Bruin7]

Jokic also has very few true rookie cards comparatively speaking. He doesn’t have a Court Kings but an insert rookie. Only the Premier Level Select but not concourse/courtside like KAT or Porzingis. He’s still somewhat affordable given he’s only 25. Plenty more years of $$$ growth. The true rookie numbered stuff are still cheap imo.

[daeve]

Jokic also has very few true rookie cards comparatively speaking. He doesn’t have a Court Kings but an insert rookie. Only the Premier Level Select but not concourse/courtside like KAT or Porzingis. He’s still somewhat affordable given he’s only 25. Plenty more years of $$$ growth. The true rookie numbered stuff are still cheap imo.

I agree, what I have now, given his current level of play - I'm not at all interested in selling. Very few guys who can lead a team to conference Finals despite many injuries / personnel changes and no other all-stars. Actually recently, that's it, it's just Jokic who can do that.

[mbuch21]

crazy or just corrected? He's a top 6 player, I'd argue possibly higher but top 6 at this point is pretty definite. I sold a PSA 10 Prizm through a cosignor that got bumped from a September to an October auction, and it sold for under $300 - yeah I wasn't pleased, when I submitted it they were closer to $500. While at that same time Murray was selling for $550-650 and that continued into mid December.

Jokic is by far the better player, so that was due to be corrected and it finally is.


This is spot on.
The Jokic discount was tragic all last season, given he finished 4th in MVP voting at age 24 the year before. It took a handful of triple doubles in a hot market for people to wake up. It’s never going back.

As a PC collector, I also agree that Jokic just doesn’t have enough rookie cards. There are 2 NT, the immaculates (aforementioned), Prizm, Select, Noir plus a few lower tier brands like Donruss and Limited. But more importantly those print runs were tiny compared to what we see from ‘19 or ‘20.
I’d venture in pure numbers Luka has 10x the number of rookie cards printed vs Jokic. There may even be more Luka Chronicles RCs than Jokic total.

[brock]

I agree, what I have now, given his current level of play - I'm not at all interested in selling. Very few guys who can lead a team to conference Finals despite many injuries / personnel changes and no other all-stars. Actually recently, that's it, it's just Jokic who can do that.


Technically true on the all-star front with murray, but Murray had 8 playoff games in the bubble with at least 30 points. So don't make it out like he had no help.

Also, Millsap has been an all-star before and was on the team. So also technically wrong.

Also, once in the bubble, who was hurt? Gary Harris and... Craig? Am I missing anyone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[daeve]

Technically true on the all-star front with murray, but Murray had 8 playoff games in the bubble with at least 30 points. So don't make it out like he had no help.

Also, Millsap has been an all-star before and was on the team. So also technically wrong.

Also, once in the bubble, who was hurt? Gary Harris and... Craig? Am I missing anyone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sap hasn't been an All-Star since 16-17, he's nowhere near an All-Star now. I'm not counting Dwight as an All-Star/NBA player for the Lakers either, that's just playing technicalities.

Harris and Barton were both hurt in the playoffs, Harris came back but clearly wasn't 100%. Those are their two best wing defenders. MPJ was hurt a bunch, and was very raw for being a rotational / depended on playoffs player.

And yeah Murray stepped up big-time in the playoffs, someone had to. Still doesn't mean he's an All-Star type yet.

Point being, Jokic is doing this all without a clear-cut 'All-Star/NBA #2' - every other contender/conference finals team has something similar to that, or more.

[frobebryant]

jumping on the jokic train as well. Im a amateur in card investing but hardcore basketball fan.

If jokic can get his team to 4th or 5th in the west (esp given how the team is playing) I think he's MVP. Was considering buying more cards or just going to vegas and putting down the 18 to 1 earlier this year. I've seen him move down to +1200 and even +700 in certain places.

And this is another stat I look up that lines well with MVP. 8/9 years it has lined up


Season Lg Player WS/48 Tm
2020-21 NBA Nikola Jokić .2953 DEN
2019-20 NBA Giannis Antetokounmpo .2788 MIL
2018-19 NBA Giannis Antetokounmpo .2922 MIL
2017-18 NBA James Harden .2891 HOU
2016-17 NBA Kevin Durant .2775 GSW
2015-16 NBA Stephen Curry .3177 GSW
2014-15 NBA Stephen Curry .2881 GSW
2013-14 NBA Kevin Durant .2955 OKC
2012-13 NBA LeBron James .3220 MIA
2011-12 NBA LeBron James .2983 MIA

[Bruin7]

Technically true on the all-star front with murray, but Murray had 8 playoff games in the bubble with at least 30 points. So don't make it out like he had no help.

Also, Millsap has been an all-star before and was on the team. So also technically wrong.

Also, once in the bubble, who was hurt? Gary Harris and... Craig? Am I missing anyone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can tell you from watching games courtside before Covid that Jokic is not a fan of Murray. Murray, MPJ and other ex-players like Malik Beasley cared more about chicks in the stands than the game. Obviously things can change and I haven’t been to a game in forever but doubt their personalities have changed much. Jokic & Doncic one day Forever LOL

[DragniThirty]

I mean I understand your market argument. Cant argue that it’s not the biggest market, but not everyone is chasing that allure. Looking at the careers of the overseas players they seem less likely to bolt their franchises for more fame.

Doncics popularity has less to do with where he plays than almost every player in the game. Europeans could care less if he plays for dallas or the knicks. At least that’s my opinion.

If you was refering to us european fans, I can guarantee you that it does matter a lot to us on which team a player is. We enjoy the nba and the hobby as much as everyone else, we just can't go the games. Although some teams may have a bigger following compared to to the US - dallas (dirk), spurs (tony parker) for example.

[Derekbauer]

If you was refering to us european fans, I can guarantee you that it does matter a lot to us on which team a player is. We enjoy the nba and the hobby as much as everyone else, we just can't go the games. Although some teams may have a bigger following compared to to the US - dallas (dirk), spurs (tony parker) for example.

So you’re saying if Dirk played for the Knicks it would mean he would have had more fans in Europe than if he played for the Mavs? Ok maybe a little, I can concede that.

Your last sentence kind of points to what I’m getting at. The popularity of these “small” market teams in the US is not comparable to other countries when they have global superstars like Dirk and Doncic....

Again, just my opinion but if you look at the true global superstars of the era like Dirk, Yao, Giannis, Parker, etc... they didn’t bolt their franchises for larger US market teams. So I think the chances of doncic leaving Dallas for a bigger market is much less than with most superstars

[RedMike]

So you’re saying if Dirk played for the Knicks it would mean he would have had more fans in Europe than if he played for the Mavs? Ok maybe a little, I can concede that.

Your last sentence kind of points to what I’m getting at. The popularity of these “small” market teams in the US is not comparable to other countries when they have global superstars like Dirk and Doncic....

Again, just my opinion but if you look at the true global superstars of the era like Dirk, Yao, Giannis, Parker, etc... they didn’t bolt their franchises for larger US market teams. So I think the chances of doncic leaving Dallas for a bigger market is much less than with most superstars

I'm from Dallas, and I may be bias - but from just looking at Doncic and everything you seen so far - and knowing the kind of owner , GM and coach the Dallas Mavericks have, I just believe that the only way Luka is off this team is because the Mavericks don't want him here.

Also, Jokic been amazing this year and his career so far.

[DragniThirty]

So you’re saying if Dirk played for the Knicks it would mean he would have had more fans in Europe than if he played for the Mavs? Ok maybe a little, I can concede that.

Your last sentence kind of points to what I’m getting at. The popularity of these “small” market teams in the US is not comparable to other countries when they have global superstars like Dirk and Doncic....

Again, just my opinion but if you look at the true global superstars of the era like Dirk, Yao, Giannis, Parker, etc... they didn’t bolt their franchises for larger US market teams. So I think the chances of doncic leaving Dallas for a bigger market is much less than with most superstars

I mean that the Popularity of small and big market teams is Kind of the same to us, but because of sucessfull careers of european players, Teams like dallas or the spurs have an extra following. These are exceptions, other small Teams are perceived the same way as in the US from my experience. Of course noone here wants luka to play in sacramento ;)

But Yes, some alpha europeans sticked to their smaller franchises and I would love to see more US players to do the same.

[KhalDrogo]

I'm from Dallas, and I may be bias - but from just looking at Doncic and everything you seen so far - and knowing the kind of owner , GM and coach the Dallas Mavericks have, I just believe that the only way Luka is off this team is because the Mavericks don't want him here.

Also, Jokic been amazing this year and his career so far.
Exactly right. Luka isn’t leaving Dallas. Cuban will bring the talent necessary to get them to be a perennial title contender. I hope that talent includes Jokic.

[Derekbauer]

I mean that the Popularity of small and big market teams is Kind of the same to us, but because of sucessfull careers of european players, Teams like dallas or the spurs have an extra following. These are exceptions, other small Teams are perceived the same way as in the US from my experience. Of course noone here wants luka to play in sacramento ;)

But Yes, some alpha europeans sticked to their smaller franchises and I would love to see more US players to do the same.

I think we actually have the same viewpoint haha.

Unfortunately, I don’t see many of the US guys taking that route anytime soon.

[Paderborn1907]

So you’re saying if Dirk played for the Knicks it would mean he would have had more fans in Europe than if he played for the Mavs? Ok maybe a little, I can concede that.

Your last sentence kind of points to what I’m getting at. The popularity of these “small” market teams in the US is not comparable to other countries when they have global superstars like Dirk and Doncic....

Again, just my opinion but if you look at the true global superstars of the era like Dirk, Yao, Giannis, Parker, etc... they didn’t bolt their franchises for larger US market teams. So I think the chances of doncic leaving Dallas for a bigger market is much less than with most superstars

Some might say European players are more loyal, but it's also the better marketability on their home markets to stay with the same team.

In Soccer players would also leave for the highest bidder and bigger market teams. US sports have a salary cap so your small market team can give you the same Super Max contract. Your marketability though gives you a boost if you're associated with the franchise that drafted you or where your were becoming a star (heck I had Detlef Schrempf Supersonics jersey myself, everybody was routing for Seattle).
Only exceptions maybe the Lakers and the Bulls and for China the Rockets, those teams have generally large fan bases (Pau Gasol was definetely more popular as a Laker).

Doncic is now kind of the European heir of Dirk, his brand is the strongest with the Mavs.

[RogerGodahell]

I can tell you from watching games courtside before Covid that Jokic is not a fan of Murray. Murray, MPJ and other ex-players like Malik Beasley cared more about chicks in the stands than the game. Obviously things can change and I haven’t been to a game in forever but doubt their personalities have changed much. Jokic & Doncic one day Forever LOL


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50832134016_96263c4d8e_o.gif

[RogerGodahell]

4dCmDLyj-A0

[mindcycle]

Man... How am I so late to this thread, lol. I guess it just shows how often I actually get on here nowadays (sadly), but cool to see a Jokic thread. Even if it is another Doncic thread in disguise.. :D

I started collecting Jokic in 2015 simply because he was a rookie on the Nuggets and I collect all things Nuggets as many of you know. I was able to early on acquire a Gold/Mojo Prizm, several NT RPA's, Immac RPA's, etc.. Nothing compared to NeedChapmans, but no one will likely ever top you're collection man. Epic can't even describe what you were able to put together. I did have 10+ prizm silvers at one point when they were selling for $1 each. I actually used to pass on them if shipping was too high, lol. Yaga and I used to talk a lot back then since he was going after silvers around that time too. Although he was after them a fair bit more than me since I was more focused on Mudiay cards at the time.. lol

Anyway, I didn't come in here to brag about my Jokic collection or anything, but more just to explain where i'm coming from. I'm not really one to invest, but since the question was asked who is the better buy, to me it's Jokic all day long. And yeah.. I'm certainly biased a bit being a Nuggets fan, but to me Donicic's prices are so extraordinarily high right now I don't see how anyone buying today would have a chance at any sort of long term gain unless he surpasses LeBron at some point before the end of his career. Even though Jokic prices are a lot higher right now than say 2019, i'm still buying Jokic when I can. Mostly rarer cards as I don't really care about base graded Prizms whatever, but even his high end cards are still much more obtainable (price-wise) than anything Doncic right now. That plus the print run between the two as already mentioned. It's much harder to track down "high end" Jokic RC's compared to Doncic, but if you can find a rare Jokic chances are it will be cheaper comparatively.

Long term will Jokic prices hold up? Hard to tell. No one can predict the careers either of these guys will have. I also personally believe the market on everything will cool over the next few years as I firmly believe were right around year 1993 on the relative "junk wax" era scale, but that's maybe a topic for another time, lol. But let's just say both of these guys keep putting up historic numbers and the card market never cools, I still think Jokic is the better buy.

Ultimately, buy who you like though. If you're just in it to see a return you could probably buy either right now while prices go up and sell for a gain if you do it short term. But to me you'll have more fun buying the guy you actually follow and watch play. I enjoy watching Doncic but prices keep me from buying any of his cards.

[Moneychrome20]

(Edit: This is from a hobby perspective).

Doncic has 3 things over Jokic.

1) Doncic scores more/more consistently
2) Jokic is not an attractive man (straight men still prefer a guy who's nice to look at - eg. professional wrestling)
3) Doncic is not a center

The only tangible on-court difference among those things is #1 and it's marginal.

I don't really understand the problem with #3. If you can ball, you can ball. The NBA is the most positionless its ever been. The only reason Jokic plays center is cuz he's huge.

Um what @ number 2

[mindcycle]

since a lot of the Jokic bigwigs are viewing this thread, figure this might be a good place to ask... anyone seen or owned one of these?

https://i.imgur.com/08MMPa1l.jpg

This was the only 'high-end' Jokic I bought early, probably for around $150ish iirc. It had a weird 'rough patch' on the surface and then I sold it for a very modest profit probably early in 2018. I'm pretty sure he only inscribed 'Serbia' on the gold /10 variation, and though I haven't actively been looking, I think I only saw 1 other around the time I bought mine shortly after release.

Yeah I never saw the inscription on any of the /99 versions. I think you're right that is was only on the /10 version, but possibly not even on all of them. Cool card for sure though.

[PelicanFly]

https://i.imgur.com/UNBszAi.png

Beautiful card but you can buy LULU rookie autos for less than this /199 Prizm. Will be interesting to see if this gets paid or relisted.

[GOATcards]

(Edit: This is from a hobby perspective).

Doncic has 3 things over Jokic.

1) Doncic scores more/more consistently
2) Jokic is not an attractive man (straight men still prefer a guy who's nice to look at - eg. professional wrestling)
3) Doncic is not a center


Um what @ number 2

yeah I'd like this explained :popcorn:

[GOATcards]

It's early, but Raptor has a pretty clear favorite this year

https://i.imgur.com/VxrRSDhl.png

any ideas on whether RAPTOR is better than B-R's VORP?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::vorp

I notice that RAPTOR credits players quite more strongly for WAR. (Updated RAPTOR rankings with Jokic credited with 6.6 WAR vs. 3.5 with B-R's measure: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/ )

[burke23]

https://i.imgur.com/UNBszAi.png

Beautiful card but you can buy LULU rookie autos for less than this /199 Prizm. Will be interesting to see if this gets paid or relisted.

But what would an equivalent Doncic prizm cost? No skin in this game but the Doncic market is crazy high yet. Consider this is still how much cheaper than a Doncic silver psa 10? I feel Luka is probably the better investment but neither is a guarantee- and it isn’t crazy to take the guy on the better team on pace for an MVP.

[daeve]

any ideas on whether RAPTOR is better than B-R's VORP?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::vorp

I notice that RAPTOR credits players quite more strongly for WAR. (Updated RAPTOR rankings with Jokic credited with 6.6 WAR vs. 3.5 with B-R's measure: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/ )

I like looking at them as a whole - and don't have to dive deep to realize it's no contest who's been MVP this year. Check it out, even #3 in DBPM

https://i.imgur.com/JDMHrL2l.png

[jcardstore]

I got Jokic at +2000 for MVP. Feeling pretty good about that