BGS to PSA Crossover with minimum grade: Are they just stealing your $?

[Spartanwilliam]

I know this his been addressed before, but I was hoping to get some real numbers on people’s success in crossing BGS slabs to a PSA slabs with a minimum grade.

If you don’t feel comfortable posting it, just DM me, I want to start a list to find out if PSA is just simply pocketing your money without actually reviewing the slab.

I watched this play out in real time today and I’m convinced that PSA didn’t even review my slab but simply took my $ and here’s why:

Purchased a 1985 Nike Promo Michael Jordan BGS 9 within the past two weeks with the following sub-grades:

Centering: 9.5
Edges: 9.0
Corners: 9.0
Surface: 9.0

The card was sent to and graded by BGS in 2012. Which, as far as I can tell, would’ve been the best grading company at the time according to “most” people in the hobby. Obviously perception has changed and the prices have reflected that, so I figured I’d send it to PSA for a cross-over with a minimum grade of 9. You’d imagine a straight 9 with a 9.5 would be an easy cross.

Now, I’ve seen people who will crack their case, but I spent a decent amount of $ and I’m not willing to take the chance of messing up the card because I’m no expert case cracker.

Here’s the card:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/634b88cb08e6daa2be20001ec0c3c0d5.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/87dd5f5664710a0fa01ef007d6bf6e14.jpg




https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/4f01fa7804ec12e6a9c76253dad52d19.jpg
Now you may say, well it looks like there may be a surface issue by his leg. But the picture I took when I got it at home makes it clear that “defect” is not on the card:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/41ff1ca0096f6df13c1bd165c0a88e54.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/0107f75f5b454a8e0000002e4307b445.jpg


So, I get the whole: they may not be able to tell if the defect is on the card or the case, but I call BS. For the most part, it’s pretty easy to figure that out and I don’t have the technology they do.

Send it on an over-night to psa Wednesday and they received it Thursday. Did the walk-through due to the prices of the psa 9’s right now and they started the process today. Check the time stamps in the top right of my computer screen and tell me they’re not lying:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/74a1f094355e016fb378dd77254fc887.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/522f231f2adee91ba29da01b83d3074b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/031a445f8dd44488a63f9d3d2f52c0f2.jpg


Grading didn’t take as long as it seems, but those are the three pictures I had. The longest step of the process was the research and ID. From there it got ridiculous. QA Check is supposed to be a second grader ensuring grader one got it right. Mine went from assembly to QA Check two in less than three minutes. And they’ll charge me $500 plus shipping.

This is a scam right? They don’t even look at the card do they?

I’d love to get some numbers from people who have done this. Interested in probing or disproving my claim that they’re just stealing our money. For how busy they are, it doesn’t surprise me. But why not just be honest and get rid of the slab swap option?

Would love to hear other experiences and to know that I’m an idiot for thinking this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[verona]

With my experience, I will say yes!

Inviato dal mio Redmi Note 7 utilizzando Tapatalk

[KhalDrogo]

How is it a scam? You chose to not crack it out. You’re asking PSA to grade a card through a thick piece of plastic and sleeve. It is difficult to accurately assess the card that way, hence why so many are rejected for min grade.

Same goes for PSA to BGS. You simply need the card raw to best assess. If the company can’t fully assess it, it’s not getting crossed.

[Spartanwilliam]

How is it a scam? You chose to not crack it out. You’re asking PSA to grade a card through a thick piece of plastic and sleeve. It is difficult to accurately assess the card that way, hence why so many are rejected for min grade.

Same goes for PSA to BGS. You simply need the card raw to best assess. If the company can’t fully assess it, it’s not getting crossed.

That's the entire point. If they want to claim they cant assess the card through the case then why allow the service? I can see through the case and the clear plastic and tell what is/what is not on the card. So, despite not agreeing with that logic, if we were to agree with it: why would they allow the service if that is their argument. Just be honest with people and say for crossovers we dont allow minimum grade. Simple.

[KhalDrogo]

That's the entire point. If they want to claim they cant assess the card through the case then why allow the service? I can see through the case and the clear plastic and tell what is/what is not on the card. So, despite not agreeing with that logic, if we were to agree with it: why would they allow the service if that is their argument. Just be honest with people and say for crossovers we dont allow minimum grade. Simple.
Why would they do that? They are a business. Their goal is to make money by proving a service. This particular service is enjoyed by people who don’t want to risk cracking cards out of their case. Some people enjoy good success with it. Some people don’t. Not much else to it.

[dfwsoccer01]

Just like you, I have a 86 fleer MJ that I should do this for, and I just can’t bring myself to do it. Regardless of the higher yield I would get in selling. Paying a couple grand for simply to rebrand my card from BGS to PSA (same grade) is joke. PSA is printing money with their labels at this point.


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[netmasters]

How is it a scam? You chose to not crack it out. You’re asking PSA to grade a card through a thick piece of plastic and sleeve. It is difficult to accurately assess the card that way, hence why so many are rejected for min grade.

Same goes for PSA to BGS. You simply need the card raw to best assess. If the company can’t fully assess it, it’s not getting crossed.

I think you just proved his point. Thanks Khal.

[Spartanwilliam]

Why would they do that? They are a business. Their goal is to make money by proving a service. This particular service is enjoyed by people who don’t want to risk cracking cards out of their case. Some people enjoy good success with it. Some people don’t. Not much else to it.

Is it though? Who enjoys this process? That is what I am trying to figure out. Who enjoys good success with this? Again, that is what I am looking for. The simple answer is great and all but I'd like to either prove or disprove myself. They could be in big trouble if the numbers show what I think they would show.

Essentially taking peoples $ without actually providing the service requested. How do I know someone even looked at the card? It took them over a day to log my item in as received but this little tracker finished up in two hours? I don't buy it.

And I would absolutely guarantee that a second "grader" didn't look at my card in less than 2 minutes. Their own tracker showed this for me, I am sure I'm not the only one.

[SupermanBrandon]

Hard to be a scam when the rules and history are laid out right in front of you. And then you chose to send them your slabbed card with your money. It's on you. I send BGS TG/+s to PSA monthly. I never crack a BGS 9.5 before sending. I understand the game. I happen to win a few more than I lose. That works for me. I choose to do it.

[SupermanBrandon]

Is it though? Who enjoys this process? That is what I am trying to figure out. Who enjoys good success with this? Again, that is what I am looking for. The simple answer is great and all but I'd like to either prove or disprove myself. They could be in big trouble if the numbers show what I think they would show.

Essentially taking peoples $ without actually providing the service requested. How do I know someone even looked at the card? It took them over a day to log my item in as received but this little tracker finished up in two hours? I don't buy it.

And I would absolutely guarantee that a second "grader" didn't look at my card in less than 2 minutes. Their own tracker showed this for me, I am sure I'm not the only one.

I have an approx. 60-65% crossover success. But Im only sending TG/TG+s. And always still slabbed. I find opportunities that I consider a free roll at the casino.

[Spartanwilliam]

I have an approx. 60-65% crossover success. But Im only sending TG/TG+s. And always still slabbed. I find opportunities that I consider a free roll at the casino.

I get it, but the timeline presented to me makes no sense. I have 0 confidence that they actually reviewed the card, let alone twice. Have any of those crossovers occurred recently? I could see them putting in the time needed when they weren't so backed up, but everything considered I am not buying any of this. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and trusted that they would look at it.

Feel free to check the recent PSA 9s of that card. Ive found a few that look better, but quite a few that look a lot worse due to corner issues that are more than clear through the case and plastic.

[SupermanBrandon]

I get it, but the timeline presented to me makes no sense. I have 0 confidence that they actually reviewed the card, let alone twice. Have any of those crossovers occurred recently? I could see them putting in the time needed when they weren't so backed up, but everything considered I am not buying any of this. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and trusted that they would look at it.

Feel free to check the recent PSA 9s of that card. Ive found a few that look better, but quite a few that look a lot worse due to corner issues that are more than clear through the case and plastic.

Has anyone ever confirmed that their system updates every minute or in an instance? Could have been an issue with their system, then everything started updating at once? Not sure this instance should cause us all to put our tin foil hats on. Im sure we can find examples on the internet of high graded cards that dont "look" as good as the lower graded ones we own.

[Spartanwilliam]

Has anyone ever confirmed that their system updates every minute or in an instance? Could have been an issue with their system, then everything started updating at once? Not sure this instance should cause us all to put our tin foil hats on. Im sure we can find examples on the internet of high graded cards that dont "look" as good as the lower graded ones we own.

I completely agree with that. Grading is inherently arbitrary until better strategies/systems are implemented. And I would feel a lot better if my card didn't fly through the process the way it did.

The whole this card being a guaranteed 9 is certainly arbitrary. I can't prove that it is or that it is not a 9. I can only look at their body of work, the current PSA 9's available, and make a determination. And if I can do that, you'd imagine they could.

But I would love to know if other people followed that tracker as closely as I did. I'm currently waiting on a call back from PSA to see their explanation on that, but when I called a few hours ago I think I was 192nd in line.

Yet, somehow, my card flew through the process lol. All outside factors just point to this being something they aren't doing right now. Why spend the time cracking cases and re-grading when so backed up? Which, again, I understand if that's the case. But just let people know and cancel that service until you're caught up.

I'm a criminal defense attorney, so I am inherently suspicious of things, but I do try to stick to the facts and even with those I'm not buying it right now.

Hopefully the phone call will explain to me that I am somehow wrong. I want to be wrong. I like PSA. But that two minute second grader just really got to me.

[KhalDrogo]

I think you just proved his point. Thanks Khal.
Not at all. They look at the card. As soon as they identify a) an issue dropping the grade below the min grade, or b) inability to fully assess the card, the card doesn’t pass. That could take five seconds, and is the same for crossing over any card from any company to any company.

Everyone knows crossover attempts are a waste of money. Just crack the card out and let them actually be able to assess it.

[Spartanwilliam]

Not at all. They look at the card. As soon as they identify a) an issue dropping the grade below the min grade, or b) inability to fully assess the card, the card doesn’t pass. That could take five seconds, and is the same for crossing over any card from any company to any company.

Everyone knows crossover attempts are a waste of money. Just crack the card out and let them actually be able to assess it.

Again, proving my point. If your answer to the issue is: crack it open. Why allow the service in the first place? If they can't assess it through the case why allow a crossover?

[Boomer105]

Person sends in high value BGS card for crossover and PSA charges $500, doesn't give the minimum grade. Person sells their high value BGS card to someone else, the next person sends the same card to PSA for crossover, PSA collects $500 and again sends the card back in the BGS holder. If PSA allows the crossover then the cycle stops and they stop making money. Hope this helps.

[Spartanwilliam]

Person sends in high value BGS card for crossover and PSA charges $500, doesn't give the minimum grade. Person sells their high value BGS card to someone else, the next person sends the same card to PSA for crossover, PSA collects $500 and again sends the card back in the BGS holder. If PSA allows the crossover then the cycle stops and they stop making money. Hope this helps.

Exactly. And if I say f*** it and crack it out I may end up with a PSA 10. Makes 0 sense.

[burke23]

I have this same card at psa for a crossover (sgc 10 hoping to cross to psa 10). I don’t think it will fly but worth the chance. I have had good luck historically trying to cross worthy cards (eg sgc 10 and true gem bgs when shooting for a psa 10), but some cards they will be tougher on if they can’t see it out of the case for sure. I may end up cracking mine and trying raw if it doesn’t cross tbh.

[Dame]

Again, proving my point. If your answer to the issue is: crack it open. Why allow the service in the first place? If they can't assess it through the case why allow a crossover?

Because its private owned who wants to maximize profit.


I’m sure we can all agree that grading companies have deceptive and unfair business practices but it really doesn’t matter. There’s not much regulation there.

[asujbl]

Wait...

People are complaining about PSA not crossing a card you are afraid to crack? Of course they are going to be tight on something that’s slabbed

Then someone would complain they messed up their card if they did crack it for them

What a world

[gopowergoh]

So did it end up being a psa 9?

[Spartanwilliam]

Because its private owned who wants to maximize profit.


I’m sure we can all agree that grading companies have deceptive and unfair business practices but it really doesn’t matter. There’s not much regulation there.

Really wouldn't be THAT hard to hit them with a class-action simply based on the results of their crossovers and the evidence any one can find on YouTube of the results when you crack the case. I was hoping to get some numbers and see If I was way off.

I'm not the type of person to say "Oh well." I'll take the time to put the numbers together and see what happens. I'm sure there are a ton of people who have wasted a ton of money trying to do this.

[Spartanwilliam]

Wait...

People are complaining about PSA not crossing a card you are afraid to crack? Of course they are going to be tight on something that’s slabbed

Then someone would complain they messed up their card if they did crack it for them

What a world

Again, this is my entire point. Why offer the service? I send it to an "expert" so they can do it because they offer that service. If they either (1) cant determine the grade through the case, or (2) are afraid they will mess up the card, then I don't think they should be charging people for that service.

This isn't a hard argument. I know you may have been conditioned by the "reality" of the situation long ago, but that does not justify their failures. If what you say is true: they should not offer the service. And depending on the actual results of these crossovers, they may be committing a legitimate fraud.

[asujbl]

Again, this is my entire point. Why offer the service? I send it to an "expert" so they can do it because they offer that service. If they either (1) cant determine the grade through the case, or (2) are afraid they will mess up the card, then I don't think they should be charging people for that service.

This isn't a hard argument. I know you may have been conditioned by the "reality" of the situation long ago, but that does not justify their failures. If what you say is true: they should not offer the service. And depending on the actual results of these crossovers, they may be committing a legitimate fraud.

Because people are dumb? Why not offer it?

[jr24ai3]

1. you are assuming BGS subgrades are accurate when you say it should cross.
2. How long do you expect the grading process to take? They aren't spending more than a minute or 2 on a card.

Your $500 is basically moving you to the front of the line and possibly covering any additional insurance for high dollar cards.

[interestingcool]

If you're confident about the card, just crack it and submit. IMO.

[MikawlBBC]

Really wouldn't be THAT hard to hit them with a class-action simply based on the results of their crossovers and the evidence any one can find on YouTube of the results when you crack the case. I was hoping to get some numbers and see If I was way off.

I'm not the type of person to say "Oh well." I'll take the time to put the numbers together and see what happens. I'm sure there are a ton of people who have wasted a ton of money trying to do this.

I've not tried this, just have heard of anecdotal experiences but I am sure someone on here has tracked their success rate. Would be hard to evaluate a card in a slab and really the path of least resistance to deem it as not meeting min grading requirements. Conversely, it doesn't make sense to use a min grade for raw cards to me, I would think they would be apt to deem it not meeting min grade and thus, reduce work of slabbing. If it got a less desirable grade, I would just crack.

I would assume PSA has internal data on % crossovers that they won't be sharing with the public any time soon.

[asujbl]

Really wouldn't be THAT hard to hit them with a class-action simply based on the results of their crossovers and the evidence any one can find on YouTube of the results when you crack the case. I was hoping to get some numbers and see If I was way off.

I'm not the type of person to say "Oh well." I'll take the time to put the numbers together and see what happens. I'm sure there are a ton of people who have wasted a ton of money trying to do this.

You should try this

Report back

[Spartanwilliam]

1. you are assuming BGS subgrades are accurate when you say it should cross.
2. How long do you expect the grading process to take? They aren't spending more than a minute or 2 on a card.

I'm not assuming anything. Look at the pictures I provided. Feel free to look up any PSA 9 on Ebay and tell me what I'm missing. Regardless of the subgrades, I look at the card. I just provided them because it's generally accepted that a straight 9.0 should cross to a PSA 9 and a straight 9.5 has a good chance at a PSA 10.

As for the grading process: if they spend so little time and the general consensus is that they "can't see through the slab" why allow the service?

People are brought up on fraud charges for much smaller issues. I can't imagine the amount of $ they have made despite the lack of work they have done as it relates to crossovers. And as I said earlier, class-actions often get put together for much less as well. We know the amount of $ in this hobby. Not hard to see something like this coming in the near future.

[KhalDrogo]

I'm not assuming anything. Look at the pictures I provided. Feel free to look up any PSA 9 on Ebay and tell me what I'm missing. Regardless of the subgrades, I look at the card. I just provided them because it's generally accepted that a straight 9.0 should cross to a PSA 9 and a straight 9.5 has a good chance at a PSA 10.

As for the grading process: if they spend so little time and the general consensus is that they "can't see through the slab" why allow the service?

People are brought up on fraud charges for much smaller issues. I can't imagine the amount of $ they have made despite the lack of work they have done as it relates to crossovers. And as I said earlier, class-actions often get put together for much less as well. We know the amount of $ in this hobby. Not hard to see something like this coming in the near future.
I don’t think you understand grading at all. I also think you should sue PSA. Good luck.

[Spartanwilliam]

I've not tried this, just have heard of anecdotal experiences but I am sure someone on here has tracked their success rate. Would be hard to evaluate a card in a slab and really the path of least resistance to deem it as not meeting min grading requirements. Conversely, it doesn't make sense to use a min grade for raw cards to me, I would think they would be apt to deem it not meeting min grade and thus, reduce work of slabbing. If it got a less desirable grade, I would just crack.

I would assume PSA has internal data on % crossovers that they won't be sharing with the public any time soon.

If they're smart they wouldn't keep the data. Could be their downfall if anyone actually looks into this. But agree on raw cards. I don't do minimum grade for those.

And I understand the criticism. I just expect to be provided with the service I paid for and I have 0 confidence that occurred based on the timeline I was provided.

[Spartanwilliam]

I don’t think you understand grading at all. I also think you should sue PSA. Good luck.

Please explain it to me like I'm an elementary student. Maybe we will both walk away with a better understand of where you're coming from.

[SupermanBrandon]

Honest question OP...how much grading have you done in the past and for how long?

[rebbrooks]

How will you feel if it does cross over? You don't even know yet, do you ?

[ThoseBackPages]

BGS gave it a 9 on corners.

Looks like your Min Grade ask should have been an 8

[Spartanwilliam]

Honest question OP...how much grading have you done in the past and for how long?

If this is to somehow tell me to accept the way things are it's not going to work. My brother has been collecting for much longer than I have. When he started BGS was the preferred company. I have seen that dynamic change over the last few years. I know the fake slab controversies, I have seen cracked slabs go from BGS 8.5 to PSA 10. I have watched hours of results from different people on YouTube who attempted this "experiment" with both cracked and un-cracked slabs.

How does the amount of grading I have done in the past play any role in this? Either they provide the service you pay for or they don't. I promise I'm not some newbie that doesn't understand the process. I get it. Doesn't mean what they're doing is right, or that they have any consistency whatsoever.

[Spartanwilliam]

How will you feel if it does cross over? You don't even know yet, do you ?

MG not met within hours of them starting their 8-step process.

[Spartanwilliam]

BGS gave it a 9 on corners.

Looks like your Min Grade ask should have been an 8

Yeah, I get that argument but look at the corners on the PSA 9's that are out there. Tell me where mine are worse. I can send a few that have much worse corners if you'd like? Some things are pretty easy to see.

[asujbl]

Yeah, I get that argument but look at the corners on the PSA 9's that are out there. Tell me where mine are worse. I can send a few that have much worse corners if you'd like? Some things are pretty easy to see.

Should have cracked it then

[ThoseBackPages]

Yeah, I get that argument but look at the corners on the PSA 9's that are out there. Tell me where mine are worse. I can send a few that have much worse corners if you'd like? Some things are pretty easy to see.

its tough to tell through internet pictures.

im sorry you didnt win this go around, and hope that you can continue to enjoy your sweet postcard!

[SupermanBrandon]

If this is to somehow tell me to accept the way things are it's not going to work. My brother has been collecting for much longer than I have. When he started BGS was the preferred company. I have seen that dynamic change over the last few years. I know the fake slab controversies, I have seen cracked slabs go from BGS 8.5 to PSA 10. I have watched hours of results from different people on YouTube who attempted this "experiment" with both cracked and un-cracked slabs.

How does the amount of grading I have done in the past play any role in this? Either they provide the service you pay for or they don't. I promise I'm not some newbie that doesn't understand the process. I get it. Doesn't mean what they're doing is right, or that they have any consistency whatsoever.

I see you might be a good lawyer. You didn't answer my question at all and then brought up new questions. How much have you graded in the past? Im not talking about you watching YouTube videos or having the same blood line of someone that witnessed BGS being king last decade.

[rebbrooks]

I would just enjoy the BGS 9. Nice Jordan either way.

[Spartanwilliam]

Should have cracked it then

No. They shouldn't offer the service if that's the answer. As an attorney I can't charge people for something, not do it, and send them the bill outlining the work I didn't do. That would result in me losing my license. Ridiculous how quick people are to say: Oh well, that's the way it is.

That type of attitude gets us where we are today with this. No accountability and a bunch of people who say "Oh well" to ensure there is no accountability. Woof.

[asujbl]

No. They shouldn't offer the service if that's the answer. As an attorney I can't charge people for something, not do it, and send them the bill outlining the work I didn't do. That would result in me losing my license. Ridiculous how quick people are to say: Oh well, that's the way it is.

That type of attitude gets us where we are today with this. No accountability and a bunch of people who say "Oh well" to ensure there is no accountability. Woof.

Sounds like you should have cracked it

[dbpsooner]

I have an approx. 60-65% crossover success. But Im only sending TG/TG+s. And always still slabbed. I find opportunities that I consider a free roll at the casino.

That is incredible. I sent 10 TG/TG+ higher end cards into PSA last year and only 1 of the 10 crossed. It was an easy decision for me to never try crossing again.

[asujbl]

No. They shouldn't offer the service if that's the answer. As an attorney I can't charge people for something, not do it, and send them the bill outlining the work I didn't do. That would result in me losing my license. Ridiculous how quick people are to say: Oh well, that's the way it is.

That type of attitude gets us where we are today with this. No accountability and a bunch of people who say "Oh well" to ensure there is no accountability. Woof.

What kind of law do you practice to start this thread exactly?

[SupermanBrandon]

Why do I have the sneaky suspicion that our Lawyer OP was the first to have this thought:

"Topps Project 2020 is the worst product since 1991 Fleer" ;)

[Spartanwilliam]

I see you might be a good lawyer. You didn't answer my question at all and then brought up new questions. How much have you graded in the past? Im not talking about you watching YouTube videos or having the same blood line of someone that witnessed BGS being king last decade.

I have over 350 cards currently at PSA, but obviously at a much lower service level. Highest being a couple 5-days. Which are still at PSA after being sent in early January. Two of the three popped up in the pop report because they are 1/1's and there is a 9 and a 10 so far.

I have plenty PSA 9's/10's in my collection and often have the raw version of that card to compare to the grade. Also have plenty of BGS slabs as well, but the highest being a quad 9.5. Don't understand how that question is relevant to the issue presented but proceed to tell me that because I have not personally submitted as many cards as you I don't understand the process.

[GoBeavs]

This thread would've been a lot more helpful (but less entertaining) if the responders simply would've replied "Yes, they can't grade through slabs. Don't use that service". That's all that needed to be said.

The logical gymnastics of everyone trying to protect PSA's honor beyond that is unnecessary; but pure entertainment though.

[bloodwings19]

I
How does the amount of grading I have done in the past play any role in this?

If you have done grading for years, you would of submitted it again. A lot of vets subbers know that if you think the grade is worse than the card, they would submit again, most likely crack it. Some cards go through 2x-3x grading companies, it is part of the grading machine.

[Spartanwilliam]

If you have done grading for years, you would of submitted it again. A lot of vets subbers know that if you think the grade is worse than the card, they would submit again, most likely crack it. Some cards go through 2x-3x grading companies, it is part of the grading machine.

And my answer to that is: the grading companies are clearly doing something wrong if they completely lack consistency. Don't tell me how to do it, tell me why the companies are so bad at what they do and why are all of you okay with it?

[Spartanwilliam]

This thread would've been a lot more helpful (but less entertaining) if the responders simply would've replied "Yes, they can't grade through slabs. Don't use that service". That's all that needed to be said.

The logical gymnastics of everyone trying to protect PSA's honor beyond that is unnecessary; but pure entertainment though.

Thank you. It's like I'm taking crazy pills for expecting a service I paid for.

[KhalDrogo]

I have over 350 cards currently at PSA, but obviously at a much lower service level. Highest being a couple 5-days. Which are still at PSA after being sent in early January. Two of the three popped up in the pop report because they are 1/1's and there is a 9 and a 10 so far.

I have plenty PSA 9's/10's in my collection and often have the raw version of that card to compare to the grade. Also have plenty of BGS slabs as well, but the highest being a quad 9.5. Don't understand how that question is relevant to the issue presented but proceed to tell me that because I have not personally submitted as many cards as you I don't understand the process.
It is not “generally accepted” that a straight 9 will cross to a PSA 9. And it is not generally accepted that a true gem will cross to a PSA 10. You can read the countless threads in the grading section about crossovers to figure that out.

[KhalDrogo]

Thank you. It's like I'm taking crazy pills for expecting a service I paid for.
You did get the service. You’re crying foul because it went through QA quickly. Congrats on being the first person to ever cry about that. They don’t regrade the card in QA. QA1 is a review of the grades for accuracy, a gross look to make sure there wasn’t a mistake. QA2 is confirming the label and slab are okay. Your card didn’t cross. Therefore QA is a simple formality of it moving through the system.

Next time just crack the card.

[asujbl]

Thank you. It's like I'm taking crazy pills for expecting a service I paid for.

What kind of law do you practice?

[Dame]

No. They shouldn't offer the service if that's the answer. As an attorney I can't charge people for something, not do it, and send them the bill outlining the work I didn't do. That would result in me losing my license. Ridiculous how quick people are to say: Oh well, that's the way it is.

That type of attitude gets us where we are today with this. No accountability and a bunch of people who say "Oh well" to ensure there is no accountability. Woof.

They did provide the service and it went through their process. Now, if you think the service is unsatisfactory, then that's another issue. You're more than welcome not to support their business or if you're desperate enough, file a chargeback.


I agree that it is a flawed process but the component of grading itself is somewhat subjective in the first place. I don't believe there's a regulation in place either, so unless they're conducting criminal activities, this gives them zero liabilities.

[Spartanwilliam]

It is not “generally accepted” that a straight 9 will cross to a PSA 9. And it is not generally accepted that a true gem will cross to a PSA 10. You can read the countless threads in the grading section about crossovers to figure that out.

My words:

"I'm not assuming anything. Look at the pictures I provided. Feel free to look up any PSA 9 on Ebay and tell me what I'm missing. Regardless of the subgrades, I look at the card. I just provided them because it's generally accepted that a straight 9.0 should cross to a PSA 9 and a straight 9.5 has a good chance at a PSA 10."

Good chance does not mean guaranteed. But if you think it's not generally accepted that a BGS 9 with at least all 9 sub-grades is generally accepted as a PSA 9 then we simply disagree.

[Spacemanspif]

There's plenty of evidence of crossovers working, just use the search feature.

Serious question, how much did you scrutinize the details of the card through the slab (yes it's possible... it's difficult, but possible) before sending it in? If you're not able to because the case is scratched up, get it re-cased first so the grader will actually be able to see the card. If you didn't pre-screen it, what exactly is your problem, other than "I WANT AND NO GET!!". Trusting the grades on the slab and not the reviewing grader seems like bias on your part, and "this was graded in X year" doesn't mean anything.

Grading is subjective, so of course there will be discrepancies as not all graders look at things the same way. And sometimes small flaws get through, so the grades on the slab might be better than the card actually deserved. If that's the case, you just take that win. Getting this upset over essentially greed, and attacking a company and a bunch of the strangers on the internet seems like a weird way to spend your Friday afternoon.


edit: here's some posts I've made in the past regarding success/failure. I believe all-time at like 50%
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=16624508&highlight=crossover#post16624508
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=16772379&highlight=crossover#post16772379

[Spartanwilliam]

You did get the service. You’re crying foul because it went through QA quickly. Congrats on being the first person to ever cry about that. They don’t regrade the card in QA. QA1 is a review of the grades for accuracy, a gross look to make sure there wasn’t a mistake. QA2 is confirming the label and slab are okay. Your card didn’t cross. Therefore QA is a simple formality of it moving through the system.

Next time just crack the card.

Exactly. QA is a review of the grade for accuracy. So, if grader one determines it didn't meet MG, common sense would tell you that grader two would check the card to ensure grader one was right and that the card did not meet MG.

[Spartanwilliam]

There's plenty of evidence of crossovers working, just use the search feature.

Serious question, how much did you scrutinize the details of the card through the slab (yes it's possible... it's difficult, but possible) before sending it in? If you're not able to because the case is scratched up, get it re-cased first so the grader will actually be able to see the card. If you didn't pre-screen it, what exactly is your problem, other than "I WANT AND NO GET!!". Trusting the grades on the slab and not the reviewing grader seems like bias on your part, and "this was graded in X year" doesn't mean anything.

Grading is subjective, so of course there will be discrepancies as not all graders look at things the same way. And sometimes small flaws get through, so the grades on the slab might be better than the card actually deserved. If that's the case, you just take that win. Getting this upset over essentially greed, and attacking a company and a bunch of the strangers on the internet seems like a weird way to spend your Friday afternoon.

Yeah, I understand it's a long post and that I'll end up having to say the same thing more than once but I addressed this. I was just using those grades due to the general acceptance of them. But I know that you don't look at the grade, you look at the card due to the fact that grading is subjective and sometimes the grader may get it wrong.

With that said, I was able to examine the card myself though the slab and the plastic and could not notice anything that would be considered a flaw. That card is a bit tough to grade the "centering" so I cant say 100% on that without many reference points on the card itself, but the surface appeared perfect and the corners don't have a single ding on them. They're not as perfect as some of the PSA 10s if you actually look at the ones that are available (some of those are ridiculously sharp) but they're definitely better than most PSA 9's I have seen. The edges look nearly perfect as well. No noticeable marks, dents, dinks or whatever whatsoever.

My entire point is that if this company is unable to do minimum grades on crossovers due to the slab itself they should just remove the service. Why waste your consumers time and money if the service that is being paid for (crossover with a minimum grade while in a slab) is the reason you are unable to complete the service (unable to see through the graded slab)?

I wouldn't have made this post if I didn't feel as if PSA had completely scammed me out of my money. I'm a fan of the company, and understand the volume problem they are having, but it doesn't change the optics of the way my card went through their process. And I keep getting people who want to say this professional company cant see through a clear plastic case and a clear plastic sleeve and that's why I need to break my graded card out and submit it. If that is the reality then the company probably shouldn't offer the service.

[dfwsoccer01]

Exactly. QA is a review of the grade for accuracy. So, if grader one determines it didn't meet MG, common sense would tell you that grader two would check the card to ensure grader one was right and that the card did not meet MG.


I agree here. The second QA (in theory) SHOULD BE reassessing the card. Otherwise, what’s the point of a 2nd QA.

Because this is all manual work, at some point a process engineer reviewed all of their processes and said they needed to implement these QA checks. But here’s the rub, it’s all for show. I guarantee, that 2nd “QA check” is someone literally taking the card and pressing a button. Nobody is actually looking at that card a second time. Maybe a new hire and their first day on the job, but that’s it....


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[SupermanBrandon]

Based on your arguments & thoughts, it screams that you haven't done a lot of grading. Having "sent" cards to PSA means nothing. Owning already slabbed cards means nothing. Looking at photos of slabs online, means nothing! You've not seen how good your eye really is, yet. Grading at a consistent level takes time. And sending in slabs for crossing takes a lot of patience. Everyone thinks their cards are better than the next, when grading. Most people have a poor first sub or two. Are the grading companies perfect, NO! Can we all come up with examples of one grading better than the other, YES! Send your stuff to HGA (and their supposed AI grading). This is the game. If you don't like it, don't play. This is suppose to be fun. Sounds like you might not be enjoying this. If you don't like that they didn't cross it...just put your nuts on the table, crack it and resend. But crying foul over 1 failed crossover attempt, wont get much sympathy here.

[Spartanwilliam]

There's plenty of evidence of crossovers working, just use the search feature.

Serious question, how much did you scrutinize the details of the card through the slab (yes it's possible... it's difficult, but possible) before sending it in? If you're not able to because the case is scratched up, get it re-cased first so the grader will actually be able to see the card. If you didn't pre-screen it, what exactly is your problem, other than "I WANT AND NO GET!!". Trusting the grades on the slab and not the reviewing grader seems like bias on your part, and "this was graded in X year" doesn't mean anything.

Grading is subjective, so of course there will be discrepancies as not all graders look at things the same way. And sometimes small flaws get through, so the grades on the slab might be better than the card actually deserved. If that's the case, you just take that win. Getting this upset over essentially greed, and attacking a company and a bunch of the strangers on the internet seems like a weird way to spend your Friday afternoon.


edit: here's some posts I've made in the past regarding success/failure. I believe all-time at like 50%
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=16624508&highlight=crossover#post16624508
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=16772379&highlight=crossover#post16772379


Appreciate the edited post though. I definitely see that you know what you're doing. Hopefully when I get my card back it will have a note so I know this is not some sham. But that two minute "second grade" still feels wrong.

[Thirsty Whale]

This video is for you:
http://youtu.be/57r_9oYjftQ

[Spartanwilliam]

Based on your arguments & thoughts, it screams that you haven't done a lot of grading. Having "sent" cards to PSA means nothing. Owning already slabbed cards means nothing. Looking at photos of slabs online, means nothing! You've not seen how good your eye really is, yet. Grading at a consistent level takes time. And sending in slabs for crossing takes a lot of patience. Everyone thinks their cards are better than the next, when grading. Most people have a poor first sub or two. Are the grading companies perfect, NO! Can we all come up with examples of one grading better than the other, YES! Send your stuff to HGA (and their supposed AI grading). This is the game. If you don't like it, don't play. This is suppose to be fun. Sounds like you might not be enjoying this. If you don't like that they didn't cross it...just put your nuts on the table, crack it and resend. But crying foul over 1 failed crossover attempt, wont get much sympathy here.

I guess we will find out when I get those raw cards in. First batch only included ones I thought would get a 9 or 10.

And I get how you may feel about me based on the post and the date I joined this forum. Understandable. I may seem like some guy who just read a few online posts about crossovers or watched a few videos and thought this must be easy. You're allowed to think that, and it doesn't bother me one bit. But the bottom line is that based on the timeline it seems like they didn't do their job. Not looking for sympathy, was looking for answers.

FWIW- Just got off the phone with customer service. They wanted to tell me that Q1 was not when a second grader checks the card, despite the status bar saying so, and articles on their own website saying so: https://www.psacard.com/articles/articleview/10241/psa-update-journey-card

So, according to them, all grading occurs in the grading portion of that status bar. There was no need for a second grader in Q1 and that's why it was only two minutes, though he couldn't specifically speak to the time needed to properly complete Q1. Yup, they definitely looked at my card...

[Spartanwilliam]

This video is for you:
http://youtu.be/57r_9oYjftQ

lol I actually watched this a while back. Which basically proves my point. They shouldn't offer a service they can't truly complete knowing what those cards get if they are cracked.

[dfwsoccer01]

So, according to them, all grading occurs in the grading portion of that status bar. There was no need for a second grader in Q1 and that's why it was only two minutes, though he couldn't specifically speak to the time needed to properly complete Q1. Yup, they definitely looked at my card...[/QUOTE]


Like I said, all a show - Let’s make it look “visually” like we are doing our due diligence to avoid errors, etc.


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[Spartanwilliam]

So, according to them, all grading occurs in the grading portion of that status bar. There was no need for a second grader in Q1 and that's why it was only two minutes, though he couldn't specifically speak to the time needed to properly complete Q1. Yup, they definitely looked at my card...


Like I said, all a show - Let’s make it look “visually” like we are doing our due diligence to avoid errors, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


Right. But they said I got what I paid for because it was completed in a day... Wonder what their answer is to people who submit on a 5 day...


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[asujbl]

Like I said, all a show - Let’s make it look “visually” like we are doing our due diligence to avoid errors, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right. But they said I got what I paid for because it was completed in a day... Wonder what their answer is to people who submit on a 5 day...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Still waiting on what kind of law you practice before your lawsuit

[Spartanwilliam]

Right. But they said I got what I paid for because it was completed in a day... Wonder what their answer is to people who submit on a 5 day...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Still waiting on what kind of law you practice before your lawsuit[/QUOTE]


Are you inferring I’m not an attorney? But this was addressed earlier as well: criminal defense. Usually trying to keep people out of trouble, not make accusations.


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[BreaultCards]

I am of the strong opinion crack it or don't send. Think of the business side. They can take a crossover, inspect it, bump it, crack it, reslab, at it to the pop report and make X dollars. They could alternatively send it back untouched and make the same dollar amount. They are jammed with cards. 0 incentive to bump more then the bare minimum %

[mjohnatgt]

Posting threads like this may get you banned from submitting to PSA. Filing a class action lawsuit against them will definitely get you banned. Good luck! As someone who PSA banned for repeatedly pointing out their incompetence, I'll enjoy the company.

[ThoseBackPages]

Posting threads like this may get you banned from submitting to PSA. Filing a class action lawsuit against them will definitely get you banned. Good luck! As someone who PSA banned for repeatedly pointing out their incompetence, I'll enjoy the company.

he's right!

theres another member here who's made his BO career here about talking about how he was banned.

[asujbl]

I am of the strong opinion crack it or don't send. Think of the business side. They can take a crossover, inspect it, bump it, crack it, reslab, at it to the pop report and make X dollars. They could alternatively send it back untouched and make the same dollar amount. They are jammed with cards. 0 incentive to bump more then the bare minimum %

Smart

[asujbl]

Still waiting on what kind of law you practice before your lawsuit


Are you inferring I’m not an attorney? But this was addressed earlier as well: criminal defense. Usually trying to keep people out of trouble, not make accusations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

I’m inferring you dodged the question for a while

[KhalDrogo]

Why did you do walk through? Should have done express. Maybe you would have had better result.

[Spartanwilliam]

Are you inferring I’m not an attorney? But this was addressed earlier as well: criminal defense. Usually trying to keep people out of trouble, not make accusations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m inferring you dodged the question for a while[/QUOTE]


But I didn’t. It was mentioned in the same post that I mentioned I was an attorney. Only reason I mentioned it was to say that I’m usually pretty reasonable and don’t like to make unsubstantiated claims.


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[asujbl]

Cool

I’m a CPA and I wouldn’t post and threaten to not pay Use Tax without backup

It’s what you did

Time to take the L

[Spartanwilliam]

Why did you do walk through? Should have done express. Maybe you would have had better result.


lol so they could up-charge me for putting it in the wrong level? I guess that’s one way to make them earn their $. But that’s brings us back to the conclusion that they really don’t do crossovers, especially not right now given how busy they are.


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[Spartanwilliam]

Cool

I’m a CPA and I wouldn’t post and threaten to not pay Use Tax without backup

It’s what you did

Time to take the L


When did I threaten not to pay? If I wanted to do that I’d call my bank, not the card forum. My backup was provided via photos and responses received directly from customer service. They don’t even follow the process on their own website... but inherent I take the L when they don’t do the job I paid them to do.


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[asujbl]

When did I threaten not to pay? If I wanted to do that I’d call my bank, not the card forum. My backup was provided via photos and responses received directly from customer service. They don’t even follow the process on their own website... but inherent I take the L when they don’t do the job I paid them to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m over it

Let me know how your lawsuit goes

[Spartanwilliam]

I am of the strong opinion crack it or don't send. Think of the business side. They can take a crossover, inspect it, bump it, crack it, reslab, at it to the pop report and make X dollars. They could alternatively send it back untouched and make the same dollar amount. They are jammed with cards. 0 incentive to bump more then the bare minimum %


Exactly. But I’m wrong for assuming that’s exactly what they did with photos to support that conclusion.

Or I should be scared that PSA will ban me for addressing problems?

I’m a criminal defense attorney, I don’t file class action lawsuits nor could I threaten to do so. Doesn’t change the fact that they could open themselves up to one if they’re doing what it looks like they’re doing. Not one to walk on eggshells in hopes of avoiding scrutiny and if they want to ban me for asking questions that’s on them, not me.


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[Spartanwilliam]

he's right!

theres another member here who's made his BO career here about talking about how he was banned.


That’s pretty sad. I’d understand if they were spreading lies, but the truth is the truth. More than willing to be proved wrong, but the customer service callback didn’t provide much hope.


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[KhalDrogo]

lol so they could up-charge me for putting it in the wrong level? I guess that’s one way to make them earn their $. But that’s brings us back to the conclusion that they really don’t do crossovers, especially not right now given how busy they are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They can’t upcharge you if it doesn’t meet minimum grade as they are not assigning a grade, and therefore can’t assign a value. This is a good tactic to use if you do a crossover.

[Spartanwilliam]

They can’t upcharge you if it doesn’t meet minimum grade as they are not assigning a grade, and therefore can’t assign a value. This is a good tactic to use if you do a crossover.


Smart. I appreciate that. Thank you!


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[Kyle213]

I’ve been wondering the same thing. I have a Jordan Rc BGS 7 with 6,9,9,9 sub grades. The 6 is on centering but I think it has a shot at a PSA 9 oc. I don’t want to crack it if I don’t have to but also don’t want to have my money taken for nothing.

[Ferg1945]

One of these days I'd love to see PSA encapsulate a fully intact BGS holder in a PSA slab

[Spartanwilliam]

I’ve been wondering the same thing. I have a Jordan Rc BGS 7 with 6,9,9,9 sub grades. The 6 is on centering but I think it has a shot at a PSA 9 oc. I don’t want to crack it if I don’t have to but also don’t want to have my money taken for nothing.


Based on my experience I wouldn’t do it. Or at at least wouldn’t put a minimum grade.

Unfortunately the majority of the responses have been to crack it.


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[shootit]

That is incredible. I sent 10 TG/TG+ higher end cards into PSA last year and only 1 of the 10 crossed. It was an easy decision for me to never try crossing again.

yup first and last time ever trying for a cross i think got 2/10 and they were the two lowest value lol

[kcroyalsfan8515]

free yourselves from the shackles of grading....is is exhilarating...

[ninjacookies]

Interesting thread, and going exactly as planned.

While I'm here: has anyone submitted a BGS 10 (not black label) in the slab and NOT had it cross to psa 10? Yes, I understand that would be kind of stupid to do since price discrepancy should be negligible or even worse, but just wondering.


I have a few true gem 9.5 slabs with all 9.5 and (2) 10 subs that I'm really itching to try and cross. But threads like these give me pause. And there's no way I'm cracking them since they're 5 digit cards as-is.

[SupermanBrandon]

Interesting thread, and going exactly as planned.

While I'm here: has anyone submitted a BGS 10 (not black label) in the slab and NOT had it cross to psa 10? Yes, I understand that would be kind of stupid to do since price discrepancy should be negligible or even worse, but just wondering.

I have a few true gem 9.5 slabs with all 9.5 and (2) 10 subs that I'm really itching to try and cross. But threads like these give me pause. And there's no way I'm cracking them since they're 5 digit cards as-is.

Really good chance you didn't pay 5 digits for them. Why not spend a couple hundred bucks at the chance of a much bigger upgrade in value? FREE roll at the casino! No reason not to take it. Worst case: you're out a couple hundred and still have your 5 digit TG+ Slabs that you didn't pay 5 digits for.

[ninjacookies]

Really good chance you didn't pay 5 digits for them. Why not spend a couple hundred bucks at the chance of a much bigger upgrade in value? FREE roll at the casino! No reason not to take it. Worst case: you're out a couple hundred and still have your 5 digit TG+ Slabs that you didn't pay 5 digits for.


I definitely gave that some thought from your line of reasoning. I've been wrestling with it. And yes, I'm already way up on all 4 cards. BUT...I just hate the potential idea of cracking them, paying 4 digits to PSA only to have them slabbed 9's....then potentially ruining the true gem designation with BGS on yet...another re-sub.

[SupermanBrandon]

I definitely gave that some thought from your line of reasoning. I've been wrestling with it. And yes, I'm already way up on all 4 cards. BUT...I just hate the potential idea of cracking them, paying 4 digits to PSA only to have them slabbed 9's....then potentially ruining the true gem designation with BGS on yet...another re-sub.

I wouldn't crack them! Min Grad 10. They cross cards in BGS slabs every day. No reason to bust them out.

[dfwsoccer01]

Interesting thread, and going exactly as planned.

While I'm here: has anyone submitted a BGS 10 (not black label) in the slab and NOT had it cross to psa 10? Yes, I understand that would be kind of stupid to do since price discrepancy should be negligible or even worse, but just wondering.


I have a few true gem 9.5 slabs with all 9.5 and (2) 10 subs that I'm really itching to try and cross. But threads like these give me pause. And there's no way I'm cracking them since they're 5 digit cards as-is.


This right here. Like why? And I’m not saying you specifically, because I’m guilty in thinking about this too, simply from a profit perspective...

I just want to know who brainwashed all these people to believe, “PSA had so much more value...”. And don’t anyone say, “it’s always been like this”, because when I got back into collecting 7 years ago, I was getting BGS all day and in no way were PSA at these outrageous levels......


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[Spartanwilliam]

This right here. Like why? And I’m not saying you specifically, because I’m guilty in thinking about this too, simply from a profit perspective...

I just want to know who brainwashed all these people to believe, “PSA had so much more value...”. And don’t anyone say, “it’s always been like this”, because when I got back into collecting 7 years ago, I was getting BGS all day and in no way were PSA at these outrageous levels......


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People like to see 10. Don’t agree with it, but it’s what they’ve been sold.


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[ninjacookies]

This right here. Like why? And I’m not saying you specifically, because I’m guilty in thinking about this too, simply from a profit perspective...

I just want to know who brainwashed all these people to believe, “PSA had so much more value...”. And don’t anyone say, “it’s always been like this”, because when I got back into collecting 7 years ago, I was getting BGS all day and in no way were PSA at these outrageous levels......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

> registry johnson measuring contests
> possible tougher gem rates (though I'd like to see compiled scientific data across all cards)
> placebo effect


That's my best guesses. And yes, 7-10 years ago BGS was hawt fiyah. But seems like the above 3 factors have all but rendered those gold and silver labels antique boomer fossils. And at this point in my life, I value greenbacks and sports cars without roll up windows. #joinedthesheep

[burke23]

> registry johnson measuring contests
> possible tougher gem rates (though I'd like to see compiled scientific data across all cards)
> placebo effect


That's my best guesses. And yes, 7-10 years ago BGS was hawt fiyah. But seems like the above 3 factors have all but rendered those gold and silver labels antique boomer fossils. And at this point in my life, I value greenbacks and sports cars without roll up windows. #joinedthesheep

Man - 7-10 years ago everything I collected psa was still supreme. Have to go back to early 2000’s to when a 9.5 outsold a psa 10 consistently across the board. Bgs to me has been routinely an easier gem than psa in that time.

[Spartanwilliam]

Man - 7-10 years ago everything I collected psa was still supreme. Have to go back to early 2000’s to when a 9.5 outsold a psa 10 consistently across the board. Bgs to me has been routinely an easier gem than psa in that time.


Despite my frustration with this service, I’m generally PSA over BGS. But the centering on some of these PSA 10s [emoji102]... those don’t look like 9.5s to me.


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[ninjacookies]

Man - 7-10 years ago everything I collected psa was still supreme. Have to go back to early 2000’s to when a 9.5 outsold a psa 10 consistently across the board. Bgs to me has been routinely an easier gem than psa in that time.


You're right. My frame of reference was kinda exaggerating. But a BGS label was definitely more respected 7 years ago than it is today. There is literally nobody of note lobbying for BGS in the hobby. It's over.

[daviswr7]

4 cards out. Super express. $200 a pop. Shipping and insurance is $100.


$900 out the door.

If one catches a 10 then it’s all good.

All cards are quad 9.5 or better.

We’ll see..

[Spartanwilliam]

4 cards out. Super express. $200 a pop. Shipping and insurance is $100.


$900 out the door.

If one catches a 10 then it’s all good.

All cards are quad 9.5 or better.

We’ll see..


Please do update


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[daviswr7]

Please do update


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Will do. First time. This one done out of pure curiosity as half my cards are BGS 9.5s and the other half are PSA.


Hugh dollar cards, 1 quad 9.5 and 3 9.5s with a 10.

I’m
Purposely sending in high dollar gems with NO 9 subs.


We’ll see how it goes. Will update shortly.

[Spacemanspif]

You're right. My frame of reference was kinda exaggerating. But a BGS label was definitely more respected 7 years ago than it is today. There is literally nobody of note lobbying for BGS in the hobby. It's over.

You know I like my cards THICC. Any high end RPA/auto, or frankly anything that’s high end and not a 10 I prefer the sub grades. Having a near perfect card with a simple “PSA 9” that doesn’t describe to me the imperfection is extremely frustrating

[cowboyzqna]

Or.... bgs over graded it.



Crack it and send it to psa to see what it "really" grades. Could be a 9. Like someone else said its hard to tell with bgs cases how the surface really is.

[dfwsoccer01]

Man - 7-10 years ago everything I collected psa was still supreme. Have to go back to early 2000’s to when a 9.5 outsold a psa 10 consistently across the board. Bgs to me has been routinely an easier gem than psa in that time.


Please show me the evidence where BGS is “routinely an easier gem”. Because it’s more often than not, I see either with my own eyes or posts of, “wtf... how’s that a PSA10?” Like I get it, you’re a PSA Homer, but let’s be real here, and not throw out blanket statement like that....


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[rustywest]

BGS to PSA Crossover with minimum grade: Are they just stealing your $?

Absolutely.

[cypher]

Why did you do walk through? Should have done express. Maybe you would have had better result.

This guy is an apologist for the entire industry. Yes PSA scammed you.

[JeremyNick]

This thread would've been a lot more helpful (but less entertaining) if the responders simply would've replied "Yes, they can't grade through slabs. Don't use that service". That's all that needed to be said.

The logical gymnastics of everyone trying to protect PSA's honor beyond that is unnecessary; but pure entertainment though.

Probably the best and most succinct post in here.

[arashY]

I've only tried once and went 1 out of 4...

I had Minimum Grade PSA 9 for the 3 that didn't meet requirements.

The LeBron red shimmer used to be a PSA 9 and I cracked it out and sent it to BGS. :o

https://i.imgur.com/abbg4hl.jpg?1

[k13]

Crack it.

Plenty of BGS 9's will end up as PSA 10's.

[kcroyalsfan8515]

The current way grading is done is a very flawed process. Done by humans with bias even some is unintentional id guess. The fact you can get a grade.. crack.. Resubmit... and get a different grade is proof. Hoping HGA can become a real player and that they show some transparency in their process. Non human grading would be the way to go. The way we do it now is more like before instant replay. Ill wait till we use technology. With the videos people like Vintage Card Curator put out to prove their is Pop control occurring im just not as crazy about it at this point. But i realize people go ape over it and will pay insane prices if that flip says 10. To each their own.

[hauntedcomputer]

Or.... bgs over graded it.



Crack it and send it to psa to see what it "really" grades. Could be a 9. Like someone else said its hard to tell with bgs cases how the surface really is.

Well, what if BGS undergraded it and PSA undergrades it more? Isn't this the whole point of the casino? let's face it, no one "really" knows the grade.

[Shaz]

This thread is of great interest to me as I have a high valued card (circa $10k) and I do understand both sides of the argument.

I think you have better odds cracking it and sending it but cracking a case thats worth $200 is different to say $10k. I am quiet nervous to do this.

There isn't a right or wrong - you have to play with what you have in front of you (right or wrong) which is you want a chance for better grades then you need to crack it.

Nevertheless I'm following this thread and keen to see how Davis goes with his sub.

[Anish]

Crack it.

Plenty of BGS 9's will end up as PSA 10's.

And some 9.5’s (with all 10/9.5 subs) end up 6’s. Happened to me.

Really depends on the card. Ones with surface issues that BGS doesn’t check will get 6’s. Be careful

[Shaz]

And some 9.5’s (with all 10/9.5 subs) end up 6’s. Happened to me.

Really depends on the card. Ones with surface issues that BGS doesn’t check will get 6’s. Be careful

Absolutely - it can go whichever way and that is the problem.

You go through the trouble of cracking it, submitting it, waiting a long time for the sub and it could blow in your face. Hence the OP's frustrating and not wanting to crack it.

I personally just want it in a PSA case because its a card that looks cleaner in a PSA case but I would be a cut if it went from quad 4's BGS to say a 6 for whatever reason.

[Spartanwilliam]

This thread is of great interest to me as I have a high valued card (circa $10k) and I do understand both sides of the argument.

I think you have better odds cracking it and sending it but cracking a case thats worth $200 is different to say $10k. I am quiet nervous to do this.

There isn't a right or wrong - you have to play with what you have in front of you (right or wrong) which is you want a chance for better grades then you need to crack it.

Nevertheless I'm following this thread and keen to see how Davis goes with his sub.


Exactly. Whether you agree or disagree I think we need to keep track people’s success/failure. Knowledge is power.


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[KhalDrogo]

PSA has suspended Crossovers. All you "crossovers are a scam" people can rejoice!

[Spartanwilliam]

PSA has suspended Crossovers. All you "crossovers are a scam" people can rejoice!


Hm. Wonder why???


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[KhalDrogo]

Hm. Wonder why???


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I would guess the volume has skyrocketed with the widening gap between BGS 9.5 and PSA 10. It takes too much total time to crack out, even if they are only crossing 10%. And there’s simply too much dollar risk now.

[Spartanwilliam]

I would guess the volume has skyrocketed with the widening gap between BGS 9.5 and PSA 10. It takes too much total time to crack out, even if they are only crossing 10%. And there’s simply too much dollar risk now.

Or they just realized that people would catch on to the fact that if you put a minimum grade right now they just take your $ and send it back. 10% would be a miracle IMO.

[mcgee2134]

How is it a scam? You chose to not crack it out. You’re asking PSA to grade a card through a thick piece of plastic and sleeve. It is difficult to accurately assess the card that way, hence why so many are rejected for min grade.

Same goes for PSA to BGS. You simply need the card raw to best assess. If the company can’t fully assess it, it’s not getting crossed.

It doesn't help that BGS scuffs up/scratches their inner sleeves. Some of my cards look like #@#@#@#@ because of the horrible inner sleeves. PSA does a much better job keeping theirs clean.

[mcgee2134]

To answer the OP, I'm only 2 for 14 on trying to cross BGS to PSA.
2-13 on trying to gem (all subgrades 9.5 or better)
0-1 on trying for a 9. (all subgrades 9 or better)

[dunkindutchmen]

You have to be brain dead to attempt crossovers with PSA. Even if they could see the card sufficiently through the thick plastic, why on earth would they go around undermining their own company by giving out the same or a better grade on a card? It's like saying, "yeah, our competitor here got this one right on the money" or "yeah, our graders are a little less precise, here's a higher grade"

[burke23]

You have to be brain dead to attempt crossovers with PSA. Even if they could see the card sufficiently through the thick plastic, why on earth would they go around undermining their own company by giving out the same or a better grade on a card? It's like saying, "yeah, our competitor here got this one right on the money" or "yeah, our graders are a little less precise, here's a higher grade"

I must be braindead - ha. I know you will want to be picky when trying but it’s doable. I probably crossed 5-6 Mahomes last year and I’m sure just one paid for all other attempts. I even crossed a Jordan Fleer rc years ago with a 9 sub.

[SupermanBrandon]

You have to be brain dead to attempt crossovers with PSA. Even if they could see the card sufficiently through the thick plastic, why on earth would they go around undermining their own company by giving out the same or a better grade on a card? It's like saying, "yeah, our competitor here got this one right on the money" or "yeah, our graders are a little less precise, here's a higher grade"

Yeh my new JetSki's think Im a complete idiot! :doh:

[Spartanwilliam]

In all honesty: Has anyone successfully crossed over to PSA within the last 5 months with a minimum grade?

Looking for one person.

[burke23]

In all honesty: Has anyone successfully crossed over to PSA within the last 5 months with a minimum grade?

Looking for one person.

Most of my “recent” ones were early to mix 2020. Only card I’ve sent recently is an sgc 10 Nike Promo which I am guessing won’t cross. Did well last year on some though. I have recently been more inclined to crack but with Nike Promo being a giant card wasn’t gonna try.

[Spartanwilliam]

Most of my “recent” ones were early to mix 2020. Only card I’ve sent recently is an sgc 10 Nike Promo which I am guessing won’t cross. Did well last year on some though. I have recently been more inclined to crack but with Nike Promo being a giant card wasn’t gonna try.

I did that exact same card. Posted the pictures in here. BGS 9, did a MG of PSA 9.

Mine is surely a PSA 9 at minimum, but despite only going to one grader (not supposed to happen according to PSA's own website) it got returned with a slip saying MG.

People wanted to say I was making things up, or an idiot for not cracking it. My response was: why offer a service if you do not actually offer the service. I didn't want to crack it for the same reason.

Turns out: PSA stopped doing cross-overs. Did they STOP any other service? To me, that is PSA admitting that they were not doing this currently any way and didn't want people to realize that they were simply taking the $ and returning the card. The only service they were providing was that they printed a label off.

I really would love to see one person who successfully completed a cross-over in the last few months with a MG. I haven't found one person. This is a big forum. Just looking for one person....

[Spacemanspif]

I did that exact same card. Posted the pictures in here. BGS 9, did a MG of PSA 9.

Mine is surely a PSA 9 at minimum, but despite only going to one grader (not supposed to happen according to PSA's own website) it got returned with a slip saying MG.

People wanted to say I was making things up, or an idiot for not cracking it. My response was: why offer a service if you do not actually offer the service. I didn't want to crack it for the same reason.

Turns out: PSA stopped doing cross-overs. Did they STOP any other service? To me, that is PSA admitting that they were not doing this currently any way and didn't want people to realize that they were simply taking the $ and returning the card. The only service they were providing was that they printed a label off.

I really would love to see one person who successfully completed a cross-over in the last few months with a MG. I haven't found one person. This is a big forum. Just looking for one person....

I already gave you proof of my crossovers. I don't have any recent examples, but I also haven't been shopping for crossover candidates, and haven't received back my 143 card BGS order back yet, which may have had some candidates. Now that they don't offer the service anymore it's a moot point.

Conversion rate or personal anecdotes were and still are stupid things to go off, because the majority of people bitching about it will admit they didn't inspect the graded card under a loupe, nor were they only submitting True Gem+. If you're upset about trying to upgrade a weak 9.5 into a 10, or an 8.5 into a 9, I don't know what to tell you. By definition, a card is only a half grade better than it's weakest component, so if I can spot a single component that I think is a "9", the whole card is a 9. Give it a rest.

[Spartanwilliam]

I already gave you proof of my crossovers. I don't have any recent examples, but I also haven't been shopping for crossover candidates, and haven't received back my 143 card BGS order back yet, which may have had some candidates. Now that they don't offer the service anymore it's a moot point.

Conversion rate or personal anecdotes were and still are stupid things to go off, because the majority of people bitching about it will admit they didn't inspect the graded card under a loupe, nor were they only submitting True Gem+. If you're upset about trying to upgrade a weak 9.5 into a 10, or an 8.5 into a 9, I don't know what to tell you. By definition, a card is only a half grade better than it's weakest component, so if I can spot a single component that I think is a "9", the whole card is a 9. Give it a rest.


https://media1.giphy.com/media/HX7pvh1mIqImc/giphy.gif


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[Spartanwilliam]

I already gave you proof of my crossovers. I don't have any recent examples, but I also haven't been shopping for crossover candidates, and haven't received back my 143 card BGS order back yet, which may have had some candidates. Now that they don't offer the service anymore it's a moot point.

Conversion rate or personal anecdotes were and still are stupid things to go off, because the majority of people bitching about it will admit they didn't inspect the graded card under a loupe, nor were they only submitting True Gem+. If you're upset about trying to upgrade a weak 9.5 into a 10, or an 8.5 into a 9, I don't know what to tell you. By definition, a card is only a half grade better than it's weakest component, so if I can spot a single component that I think is a "9", the whole card is a 9. Give it a rest.


To clarify: if you read the post, I posted the card. It’s a BGS 9 with all 9’s and a 9.5 centering. Besides the grades: I inspected the card. I compared it to other PSA 9’s and 10’s before sending it in. I wouldn’t have paid $500 for a walkthrough if I wasn’t confident in the grade.

Under your theory: my card is as weak as it’s lowest grade. So it’s a 9, which is the minimum grade I put. But feel free to look at the card and tell me I’m wrong. Reasonable minds may disagree but your response in no way addressed anything I have discussed.


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[Spacemanspif]

There’s a reason nobody is engaging with you.

[22emmittfan]

I know someone who recently crossed over say did ok...

Just last weekhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210303/405cc0c44e31096619dfedd9c59df031.jpg
By me


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[Spartanwilliam]

I know someone who recently crossed over say did ok...

Just last weekhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210303/405cc0c44e31096619dfedd9c59df031.jpg
By me


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At least we have one! Congratulations!

[Spartanwilliam]

There’s a reason nobody is engaging with you.

Plenty of people are. Getting DMs agreeing with me as well. But hey, do you.

[Thor0]

https://i.imgur.com/CGQaSEx.png

https://i.imgur.com/AKE9QCs.png


These are mine, one from September (not quite within the last 5 months) and then 2 cards from the end of January.

BGS to PSA, Min-grade, crossovers.

I'm sorry your Jordan Nike promo did not crossover. Although these two pictures make it seem like I'm successful at it (75% and 50%), I've had cards not cross when I thought they should and that sucks and I'm genuinely sorry it didn't.

I've done many other crossovers in the past (PSA-to-BGS and BGS-to-PSA) and have varying success, but if I were to guess, I'd say no worse than 40%(?)

As many others have noted, grading has (seemingly) gotten tougher since Covid and I think that has effected crossover rates as well. I've read a lot of threads where people used to get 70-90% crossover success pre-Covid and now they're lucky to get 5-20%, which I don't think it's a coincidence that at the same time, raw bulk submitters have said that for years, they'd have 70-90% gem rate and since Covid, they're rates have dropped to 30-50%, despite the same submitter screening the cards the same way prior to submitting.

In my opinion, with the "not being able to see through the case and the sleeve": If I remember correctly, PSA is supposed to back there cards with a guarantee (I actually read a thread the other day where someone was complaining because there PSA 10 wasn't in good enough shape and should be graded lower) and because of that, if they are not 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt positive a card is the minimum grade or higher, they'll just reject it, assuming "better safe than sorry". Hell, I've personally inspected cards through the case/sleeve, thought it was perfect, cracked it only to find a bad surface flaw I couldn't see through the case (I'm not new to this....).

Granted, this is a moot point now with PSA halting there crossover service, but I know you asked "why even offer that service?" and my only response to that would be because some people do have success sometimes. If everyone that tried crossing over got denied, then yes, I would completely agree with you, that they were just taking our money and there is no point, but I know some people have had success with it, albeit a lot more success in the past (Pre-Covid).

Finally, I don't know if this helps or not and unfortunately I don't have screenshot proof, but I had a card do the same thing yours did one time: it went through Grading, QA1, QA2, Assembly, Shipping, etc. in like 2 hours. I thought, "welp, there goes my money", lol, but to my dismay, that card actually DID crossover. Was the Super Express (??? old $200 service?).

[Agent99]

And my answer to that is: the grading companies are clearly doing something wrong if they completely lack consistency. Don't tell me how to do it, tell me why the companies are so bad at what they do and why are all of you okay with it?

Not inconsistency. Too many people are too caught up with the numbers and the labels. The grading companies are a business. They provide a service to make money. They are a unregulated third party who provide opinions that are universally accepted. This is the game. They set the rules.

Like all things, it is up to you as the individual to choose to play this game and engage. There are high stakes here. Less stress if you collect for fun and love of the hobby. Everything else is gravy.

[Spartanwilliam]

https://i.imgur.com/CGQaSEx.png

https://i.imgur.com/AKE9QCs.png


These are mine, one from September (not quite within the last 5 months) and then 2 cards from the end of January.

BGS to PSA, Min-grade, crossovers.

I'm sorry your Jordan Nike promo did not crossover. Although these two pictures make it seem like I'm successful at it (75% and 50%), I've had cards not cross when I thought they should and that sucks and I'm genuinely sorry it didn't.

I've done many other crossovers in the past (PSA-to-BGS and BGS-to-PSA) and have varying success, but if I were to guess, I'd say no worse than 40%(?)

As many others have noted, grading has (seemingly) gotten tougher since Covid and I think that has effected crossover rates as well. I've read a lot of threads where people used to get 70-90% crossover success pre-Covid and now they're lucky to get 5-20%, which I don't think it's a coincidence that at the same time, raw bulk submitters have said that for years, they'd have 70-90% gem rate and since Covid, they're rates have dropped to 30-50%, despite the same submitter screening the cards the same way prior to submitting.

In my opinion, with the "not being able to see through the case and the sleeve": If I remember correctly, PSA is supposed to back there cards with a guarantee (I actually read a thread the other day where someone was complaining because there PSA 10 wasn't in good enough shape and should be graded lower) and because of that, if they are not 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt positive a card is the minimum grade or higher, they'll just reject it, assuming "better safe than sorry". Hell, I've personally inspected cards through the case/sleeve, thought it was perfect, cracked it only to find a bad surface flaw I couldn't see through the case (I'm not new to this....).

Granted, this is a moot point now with PSA halting there crossover service, but I know you asked "why even offer that service?" and my only response to that would be because some people do have success sometimes. If everyone that tried crossing over got denied, then yes, I would completely agree with you, that they were just taking our money and there is no point, but I know some people have had success with it, albeit a lot more success in the past (Pre-Covid).

Finally, I don't know if this helps or not and unfortunately I don't have screenshot proof, but I had a card do the same thing yours did one time: it went through Grading, QA1, QA2, Assembly, Shipping, etc. in like 2 hours. I thought, "welp, there goes my money", lol, but to my dismay, that card actually DID crossover. Was the Super Express (??? old $200 service?).

Thank you! This is so much more helpful than what I have been getting. And I'm glad to be wrong. Unfortunate that it did not work out for me, but at least I know some people have had success during the same time period. That is a big relief in all honesty.

And I truly appreciate you taking the time to explain the experiences you have had in the past as well as the experiences of others. It's all about education within the hobby and it means a lot when others will take the time to educate others. Thank you for this. I hope others can read your response and know exactly what to expect before taking the gamble.

This is how the forum should be. We're all here because we love the hobby. Helping others keeps people around and in the hobby.

Thanks again.

[Spartanwilliam]

Not inconsistency. Too many people are too caught up with the numbers and the labels. The grading companies are a business. They provide a service to make money. They are a unregulated third party who provide opinions that are universally accepted. This is the game. They set the rules.

Like all things, it is up to you as the individual to choose to play this game and engage. There are high stakes here. Less stress if you collect for fun and love of the hobby. Everything else is gravy.

No doubt. I agree with all of this as well. And I'm happy to be proven wrong here. Transparency is all I was looking for considering you cant get much of a response from PSA nowadays. I'll take the L and move forward knowing more than I did before.

Thanks again.