So I'm Convinced shilling is the only way! [Archive]

dhcollecting

04-14-2011, 07:12 PM

I am sick and tired of getting low balled on ducking ebay auctions! Every time I sell something I always get less than what the lowest anyone has ever paid. I think to myself why this is and the only answer is that everyone else is bidding up there items.
My feedback is perfect, nothing is misspelled, I end auctions during evening so more people are home, I list as 7 day auctions (I listed as 3 days to see if anything changed, nothing).

????????? what can I do????????

rudyjustinfarrell

04-14-2011, 07:15 PM

pmannings#1fan

04-14-2011, 07:16 PM

Start your auctions at the lowest you want for your card. Wait & you can do that without any fees starting the 19th!!

FreshBreak

04-14-2011, 07:17 PM

If you're already able to view items that have sold, then perhaps you are too late getting you're product to the market. I am sure there is tons of inconspicuous shilling going on though

bravesfan#1

04-14-2011, 07:22 PM

Wait until April 19th and you'll be able to start your auctions at any price for free. Or do what I usually do and only list your items as a fixed price listing. Final value fees may be a little higher than an auction but I always get a premium with buy it now/best offer. Fixed price fees are being lowered in July so that should help some too

Jon

iluvfish2

04-14-2011, 07:31 PM

it all depends on what time your ending your auctions, what day, and what price you start them at. Shipping prices (and/or combined shipping) also effects bids. Lots of theories for each.

ceczerwonka

04-14-2011, 08:03 PM

Another thing might be that you only have a total of 12 DSR's for the last 12 months. Some bidders might look at that and be reluctant to buy, but that's some bidders.

piazza31

04-14-2011, 08:04 PM

You win some and you lose some? Looking at your completed auctions, you got better than average $$ for the Koufax and your Montana.

But... shilling is rampant. Sucks when you really want a card and you lose, only to see it relisted a few days later from the same seller.

lol sorry for the randomness but that totally reminded me of this YouTube - Motörhead - Ace of Spades (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZjEk2QEb8c) lol :D

but ya, i would not resort to shilling, its just not right. i dont know how you start your auctions they sound good but maybe (once again not sure if ya do it) dont start auctions at like 99cents or super cheap because if not many see it it could go low and they could pickup it up for dirt cheap. Just list what you would like to sell it for and see how that works, i have had to list cards multiple times without them even selling yet, i stop because of all the listing fees lol :)! but ya not really sure what else to say but good luck with your situation :)!

Frankp2311

04-14-2011, 08:15 PM

I would not put multiple pictures for a listing that are not part of the auction. When I see someone has scanned 6 images on the same scan to save time I just pass those listings by.

Igman7

04-14-2011, 08:36 PM

I see that you ended a bunch of items on a Friday night...not good as lots of folks actually go out. Also, while you had a number of items end on Monday, you are ending them between 5:00-6:00 in your own time zone. I am guessing that many Californians who would likely bid on items are still in transit from work at that hour. I usually try to end items between 9:00-10:00 EST (6:00-7:00 Pacific) during the week. I also agree with the above, care enough to have single card scans. I personally feel less compelled to bid on something where the sell is too lazy to have a good pic of ONLY the card in the auction.

dmogull

04-14-2011, 08:43 PM

I live on the east coast and I would say 75 % of my sales are to ppl in Cali/West Coast. I think auction ending on Sunday 8:30pm-10pm have the best chance.

kyle1707

04-14-2011, 08:51 PM

I have had great luck with sunday afternoon

h4auto

04-14-2011, 09:09 PM

Shilling aint fun, but get used to it.
The Governement does it, Real estate auctions do it, Automotive industry does it. Shilling is NOT ILLEGAL. Basically every auction venue has/do it. Luckily cards are lower priced and ebay is a good way to learn about auction strategies. Cause when you buy $1,000's - $1,000,000's items, shilling REALLY HURTS!

Shilling is an art in all industry's which require bidding. IT SUCKS! But that is reality.....errrrr
PS: think about it, Ebay makes people think that shilling is illegal for some reason! Usually what ebay makes you think is usually wrong.. EBAY SUCKS.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

37Jetson

04-14-2011, 10:06 PM

Shilling is absolutely and positively ILLEGAL!! Simply put it is fraud. Don't believe me? Read this

New fraud offences in the Fraud Act 2006 - Addleshaw Goddard (http://www.addleshawgoddard.com/www/view.asp?content_id=2448&parent_id=2439)

In addition to illegal it is Douchebaggery.

Shilling aint fun, but get used to it.
The Governement does it, Real estate auctions do it, Automotive industry does it. Shilling is NOT ILLEGAL. Basically every auction venue has/do it. Luckily cards are lower priced and ebay is a good way to learn about auction strategies. Cause when you buy $1,000's - $1,000,000's items, shilling REALLY HURTS!

Shilling is an art in all industry's which require bidding. IT SUCKS! But that is reality.....errrrr
PS: think about it, Ebay makes people think that shilling is illegal for some reason! Usually what ebay makes you think is usually wrong.. EBAY SUCKS.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

h4auto

04-14-2011, 10:18 PM

Shilling is not illegal. It happens at many distress Real estate auctions, Automotive auctions, Classic/muscle car auctions ,Government seizure auctions,etc. It happens and is NOT illegal. Ebay is not law, ebay has Policies that they make up. Ebay is not law makers. Just look at how they change and make up Policies on the "run". Most likely Ebay is more illegal then shilling. Ebay is most likely closer to a monopoly then shilling is illegal. Ebay is not the NORM for auction venues, ebay is more like the minority compared to auction policies that other auction houses run there auctions.

Shilling is absolutely and positively ILLEGAL!! Simply put it is fraud. Don't believe me? Read this

New fraud offences in the Fraud Act 2006 - Addleshaw Goddard (http://www.addleshawgoddard.com/www/view.asp?content_id=2448&parent_id=2439)

In addition to illegal it is Douchebaggery.

After reading that link...
Ebay,Topps, UD,Panini, Redemption cards,sellers and buyers on ebay is WAY MORE involved in illegal activities then Shilling. lol.
G.E. Not paying taxes on $5,000,000,000 profits last year is illegal, OBAMA rubbing shoulders with G.E is illegal.

I DO NOT SELL Cards on ebay, so dont worry about me shilling. I just wanted to let everyone know that shilling is not illegal and dont go thru life thinking that all auctions are "no shill" activities. . .

peafour

04-15-2011, 09:39 AM

I would not put multiple pictures for a listing that are not part of the auction. When I see someone has scanned 6 images on the same scan to save time I just pass those listings by.

I love people like you. If a card has a good enough scan to see corners and edges, I love it when there's a bunch of other cards in there, because less people bid on them. :)

Frankp2311

04-15-2011, 09:50 AM

I love people like you. If a card has a good enough scan to see corners and edges, I love it when there's a bunch of other cards in there, because less people bid on them. :)

I think of it as lazy listing = lazy packaging.

fishacura

04-15-2011, 10:02 AM

I end auctions during evening so more people are home

Depending on where your player is from (East/West coast team) end between Tues and Thurs and 11-1PM local time. I never have a problem and am convinced it's because people spend their nights with family and their days bidding. You have the lunch hour, people are not taking vacation tues-thur as much, etc. That's always worked for me.

fishacura

04-15-2011, 10:03 AM

G.E. Not paying taxes on $5,000,000,000 profits last year is illegal, OBAMA rubbing shoulders with G.E is illegal. .

Time to pack the pickup and find some nice lakefront property and a cabin in Montana.

h4auto

04-20-2011, 04:54 PM

good info , hope it helps

JasonH

04-20-2011, 05:10 PM

I live on the east coast and I would say 75 % of my sales are to ppl in Cali/West Coast. I think auction ending on Sunday 8:30pm-10pm have the best chance.

I agree 100%. My best success has been BIN/BO but if I do auction style I end it as stated above.

ripandlist

04-20-2011, 06:01 PM

a lot of good info here. Nice thread.

houdini

04-20-2011, 07:40 PM

I will often use multiple cards in one picture because it is free advertisement for my other auctions - not always, but often.

I have not missed any of the bidders who "pass by" my auctions as my auctions historically sell higher than most. Perhaps reputation makes up the difference? Either way, definitely bid on the other auctions with the single image - it was probably "borrowed" from another auction anyway.

illadelf

04-20-2011, 07:51 PM

37Jetson

04-22-2011, 07:03 AM

That is not shilling.

When the seller or representative of the seller intenionally bid up a card with no intent of buying, that is shilling. It is illegal no matter what H4Auto thinks. It is called Fraud.

Have you ever watched the show "Storage Wars"? Those guys do it all the time - bid up a lot that they aren't actually interested in buying so that one of the other bidders will have less $ for the rest of the auctions. This is clearly a bit different than Ebay, but certainly not illegal.

XL5

04-22-2011, 09:09 AM

http://blogs.smarter.com/blogs/curtschilling.jpg

Sports Fan Ston

04-22-2011, 11:02 AM

http://sfs.crappyfiles.com/forumpics/shilling-coin.jpg

h4auto

04-22-2011, 11:09 AM

I dont think it is ethical to shill, but in the real world(ebay is not real world) Shilling is NOT Illegal. Shilling happens every where, every day.

That is not shilling.

When the seller or representative of the seller intenionally bid up a card with no intent of buying, that is shilling. It is illegal no matter what H4Auto thinks. It is called Fraud.

37Jetson

04-23-2011, 09:19 AM

Maybe you would be more successful in life if you had some ethics? Just saying.

I dont think it is ethical to shill, but in the real world(ebay is not real world) Shilling is NOT Illegal. Shilling happens every where, every day.

cj52racers

04-23-2011, 09:28 AM

I dont think it is ethical to shill, but in the real world(ebay is not real world) Shilling is NOT Illegal. Shilling happens every where, every day.

You are 100% wrong. I am an antique dealer so I attend estate/storage unit auctions a lot (10-20 a week), and if I am selling something via live auction I am forbid by federal law to bid on the item. That is what shilling is, bidding on your own item. It IS illegal AND unethical. Stop leading people the wrong way by spewing disinformation.

37Jetson

04-23-2011, 09:40 AM

I think that we are confusing him with facts and ethical behavior.

You are 100% wrong. I am an antique dealer so I attend estate/storage unit auctions a lot (10-20 a week), and if I am selling something via live auction I am forbid by federal law to bid on the item. That is what shilling is, bidding on your own item. It IS illegal AND unethical. Stop leading people the wrong way by spewing disinformation.

cj52racers

04-23-2011, 09:52 AM

I think that we are confusing him with facts and ethical behavior.

I guess it just amazes me that people think it is legal to shill bid.

guru

04-23-2011, 09:55 AM

You might want to put the word "Heritage" in your topps heritage auctions. You can't leave that out unless you want to sell your stuff cheap. :eek:

h4auto

04-23-2011, 10:00 AM

Shilling is not illegal and also illegal by LAW. Shilling if you have a reserve is not illegal. example, at an automobile auction a person is selling a corvette with a reserve of $15,000, the owner can bid(shill) up the vehicle to $14,999 not over. If you have no reserve on an item, the the owner CANNOT bid on the item. Shilling is done by the public,government,everyone daily. Shilling is not only related to auctions, shilling is done on forums by posting Shill "testimonials" (unjust enrichment).

Shill = "plant". Police use plants(shills) I am sure the card company has Shill forum posts =false testimonials = hits ,etcc.. . which is illegal.

Shilling is not illegal in many cases, illegal in many cases.

I hate posting long posts, just wanted to let everyone know that shilling is not only related to auctions and shill activity happens on this forum daily but probably the culprits dont even know they are "shilling" because they are not doing it to an auction item........

You are 100% wrong. I am an antique dealer so I attend estate/storage unit auctions a lot (10-20 a week), and if I am selling something via live auction I am forbid by federal law to bid on the item. That is what shilling is, bidding on your own item. It IS illegal AND unethical. Stop leading people the wrong way by spewing disinformation.

cj52racers

04-23-2011, 10:13 AM

Shilling is not illegal and also illegal by LAW. Shilling if you have a reserve is not illegal. example, at an automobile auction a person is selling a corvette with a reserve of $15,000, the owner can bid(shill) up the vehicle to $14,999 not over. If you have no reserve on an item, the the owner CANNOT bid on the item. Shilling is done by the public,government,everyone daily. Shilling is not only related to auctions, shilling is done on forums by posting Shill "testimonials" (unjust enrichment).

Shill = "plant". Police use plants(shills) I am sure the card company has Shill forum posts =false testimonials = hits ,etcc.. . which is illegal.

Shilling is not illegal in many cases, illegal in many cases.

I hate posting long posts, just wanted to let everyone know that shilling is not only related to auctions and shill activity happens on this forum daily but probably the culprits dont even know they are "shilling" because they are not doing it to an auction item........

We are talking about Shilling auctions, and it IS illegal. It is illegal for me to bid on an item which I own. Who cares about the other types of shilling here. We are talking about auctions. If I bid on my own item, I am breaking the law. It still happens, but that doesn't mean it isn't illegal.
Authorities Crack Glass Shill-Bidding Ring on eBay (http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/abn/y02/m02/i08/s02)

h4auto

04-23-2011, 10:21 AM

If you have a reserve, it is not illegal. It happens often at auctions(real estate,automotive).
I have bought many muscle cars at Huge auctions that i know the owner was bidding on his own cars, i know my price and won the cars. I ONCE THOUGHT shilling was illegal, but going to real estate and automotive auctions, I learned that shilling is done at all auctions and auctions lets the bidder bid on there own property up TO RESERVE and it is not illegal. Bidding over reserve is illegal.

We are talking about Shilling auctions, and it IS illegal. It is illegal for me to bid on an item which I own. Who cares about the other types of shilling here. We are talking about auctions. If I bid on my own item, I am breaking the law. It still happens, but that doesn't mean it isn't illegal.
Authorities Crack Glass Shill-Bidding Ring on eBay (http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/abn/y02/m02/i08/s02)

cj52racers

04-23-2011, 10:28 AM

If you have a reserve, it is not illegal. It happens often at auctions(real estate,automotive).
I Have have bought many muscle cars at Huge auctions that i know the owner was bidding on his own cars, i know my price and won the cars. I ONCE THOUGHT shilling was illegal, but going to real estate and automotive auctions, I learned that shilling is done at all auctions and auctions lets the bidder bid on there own property up TO RESERVE and it is not illegal. Bidding over reserve is illegal.

We are not talking about when there is a reserve. Dear lord. I know that bidding to a reserve is not illegal. It doesn't change the floor price of an item, so it is legal. That is not what we are talking about, so I don't know why you keep saying that.

h4auto

04-23-2011, 10:42 AM

We are not talking about when there is a reserve. Dear lord. I know that bidding to a reserve is not illegal. It doesn't change the floor price of an item, so it is legal. That is not what we are talking about, so I don't know why you keep saying that.

Shilling is legal
shilling is illegal.

What i wanted to inform everyone is that shilling happens everyday in life and in many circumstances is legal. I ONCE THOUGHT shilling was totally ILLEGAL when i was buying cards on ebay years ago. THEN, IN REAL LIFE business ,found out that shilling happens in all shapes,forms and venues and can be legally done even related to auctions. Learning that shilling can be legally done, now as a buyer i dont walk into a auction thinking that shilling is illegal and the laws will protect me when bidding on houses and cars. Knowing shilling is legal makes me understand the auction process and become much better buyer for my businesses. If i was ignorant and thought shilling was 100% illegal and nobody would break the law when it comes to buying $100,000's items like house, i would bid wildly and lose alot of money and fall victim to LEGAL Shilling.

Knowledge is power, by telling everyone that shilling is illegal is causing a false confidence and setting them up for future failure in a more significant purchase down the road. Understanding that shill CAN BE LEGAL, makes the buyers study and research the situation and can prevent a more significant loss down that road of life.

I could go more in detail , but i really hate long posts.

cj52racers

04-23-2011, 10:50 AM

Shilling is legal
shilling is illegal.

What i wanted to inform everyone is that shilling happens everyday in life and in many circumstances is legal. I ONCE THOUGHT shilling was totally ILLEGAL when i was buying cards on ebay years ago. THEN, IN REAL LIFE business ,found out that shilling happens in all shapes,forms and venues and can be legally done even related to auctions. Learning that shilling can be legally done, now as a buyer i dont walk into a auction thinking that shilling is illegal and the laws will protect me when bidding on houses and cars. Knowing shilling is legal makes me understand the auction process and become much better buyer for my businesses. If i was ignorant and thought shilling was 100% illegal and nobody would break the law when it comes to buying $100,000's items like house, i would bid wildly and lose alot of money and fall victim to LEGAL Shilling.

Knowledge is power, by telling everyone that shilling is illegal is causing a false confidence and setting them up for future failure in a more significant purchase down the road. Understanding that shill CAN BE LEGAL, makes the buyers study and research the situation and can prevent a more significant loss down that road of life.

I could go more in detail , but i really hate long posts.
But none of that helps for people talking about no reserve cards on Ebay. I attend 1-2 auctions every single day, I have learned the ins and outs, and while there are a few circumstances, shilling is generally illegal. And, as stated, circumstances in real estate and auto (with reserve) auctions do not help in the legality of shill bidding on Ebay, which is illegal.

h4auto

04-23-2011, 10:58 AM

What i am getting at is, just because shilling is 100% illegal on EBAY(policies). Shilling is not 100% illegal in the real world. People think ebay policies is law for some reason. Ebay has policies. Breaking policies doesnt make it illegal. Shhssshh, with the crazy policies ebay makes, everyone on ebay breaks laws(policies).:(

Also the term shilling is not only related to auctions.

But none of that helps for people talking about no reserve cards on Ebay. I attend 1-2 auctions every single day, I have learned the ins and outs, and while there are a few circumstances, shilling is generally illegal. And, as stated, circumstances in real estate and auto (with reserve) auctions do not help in the legality of shill bidding on Ebay, which is illegal.

cj52racers

04-23-2011, 01:07 PM

What i am getting at is, just because shilling is 100% illegal on EBAY(policies). Shilling is not 100% illegal in the real world. People think ebay policies is law for some reason. Ebay has policies. Breaking policies doesnt make it illegal. Shhssshh, with the crazy policies ebay makes, everyone on ebay breaks laws(policies).:(

Also the term shilling is not only related to auctions.

I completely understand that, but you are making the water murky, whereas they are actually perfectly clear. The type of shilling you see on Ebay, IS illegal, and people have been prosecuted on it before. That is what I am trying to say, but you keep bringing up things that do not pertain to that at all.

h4auto

04-23-2011, 01:34 PM

I completely understand that, but you are making the water murky, whereas they are actually perfectly clear. The type of shilling you see on Ebay, IS illegal, and people have been prosecuted on it before. That is what I am trying to say, but you keep bringing up things that do not pertain to that at all.

I think more important then individuals shilling on ebay is the fact that Card companies SHill(plant) boxes to certain companies/individuals to help drive up the prices on products by creating a "false" value upon certain card products, which drives up bids on Ebay. Illegal shilling by forms of Shill boxes,shill posts on forums,etc are just as damaging to bids on individual cards on ebay. Shilling is both Illegal and LEGAL.

On another note, alot of what EBAY CS says is not correct. I run a business and come upon alot of situations where i have to find out the legality of the issue businesses face daily and have the attorney explain the "situation" to me when needed. When talking to Ebay CS they totally have the wrong information as to Legal and Illegal, Ebay is not Law.

AGAIN, At one time long ago, I thought Shilling was 100% ILLEGAL. But after understanding the law and doing research. Shilling is done legally Every where. Probably the President Obama did some shilling(Planting audience,questions,etc) thru his campaign.