Should MiLB stats count towards potential HoF's

[66_Fiat]

Veteran Committees have been rightfully voting in Negro League players that had the skill, but lacked opportunity. This is an apples to oranges comparison due to obvious circumstances.

I'm only drawing the comparison that MiLB players are playing against the best talent among them at the time within a professional baseball league. It's not their fault the owners want to save $3-$20M and a year (or three) despite their talent.

If the MiLB players are also well above their peers, shouldn't that count towards their greatness? Just recently, we can look to Goldschmidt and Bryant. They were ready for Opening Day the spring after they graduated college.

Hell, Goldschmidt had 2 full MLB seasons of ABs (3 years in the minors) and averaged 42HR/132RBI, and a .317/.408/.620 slash line.

Bryant also dominated in his 2+ seasons. 648 ABs in the minors. 212H, 55HR, 152RBI, 18SB, and a better OPS than Goldy (.425/.667)

I'm not saying the stats should count overall (i.e., Ichiro vs Rose for lifetime professional hits), but if the CBA drastically shifts towards younger players getting the call due to a change in arbitration dates/salary constrictions, then maybe those players that got the late call ups should have their early MiLB seasons assessed as well.

I'm not even considering collegiate stats.

[MoreToppsPlease]

No, but post-season stats should count.

Crime Dog would be happy.

[66_Fiat]

No, but post-season stats should count.

Crime Dog would be happy.

Jack Morris says hi.

I do agree with Crime Dog getting in though.

[Archangel1775]

If they do, you'll have people going asking about little league stats in the future

[rwperu34]

I wanted to just say no but the site requires the reply to be at least five characters, so I'll say no way.

[base set]

Baseball Card Hall of Fame only

[jduds]

Veteran Committees have been rightfully voting in Negro League players that had the skill, but lacked opportunity. This is an apples to oranges comparison due to obvious circumstances.

I'm only drawing the comparison that MiLB players are playing against the best talent among them at the time within a professional baseball league. It's not their fault the owners want to save $3-$20M and a year (or three) despite their talent.

If the MiLB players are also well above their peers, shouldn't that count towards their greatness? Just recently, we can look to Goldschmidt and Bryant. They were ready for Opening Day the spring after they graduated college.

Hell, Goldschmidt had 2 full MLB seasons of ABs (3 years in the minors) and averaged 42HR/132RBI, and a .317/.408/.620 slash line.

Bryant also dominated in his 2+ seasons. 648 ABs in the minors. 212H, 55HR, 152RBI, 18SB, and a better OPS than Goldy (.425/.667)

I'm not saying the stats should count overall (i.e., Ichiro vs Rose for lifetime professional hits), but if the CBA drastically shifts towards younger players getting the call due to a change in arbitration dates/salary constrictions, then maybe those players that got the late call ups should have their early MiLB seasons assessed as well.

I'm not even considering collegiate stats.

My initial thought was absolutely not, but you are on to something with players who were kept in the minors too long through no fault of their own. I wouldn't add the stats or anything, but think it is something to consider when evaluating a career as a whole. Maybe on a borderline case it could push one over the top.

[Archangel1775]

Joey Gallo just needs 193 home runs to join the 500 Club and he's only 27. He should reach that mark by the time he's 33. Future Hall of Famer! Invest now!

[Silent George]

The stats shouldn’t count, but the circumstances of an individual player’s career should. If Bryant ends up short of a few milestones and is seen as a fringe player it should be reminded to all of the voters that he was screwed by the baseball rules at the time BECAUSE he was so good.

[jduds]

Joey Gallo just needs 193 home runs to join the 500 Club and he's only 27. He should reach that mark by the time he's 33. Future Hall of Famer! Invest now!

You jest, but will they really keep out a 500 HR guy outside of PED reasons?

[MoreToppsPlease]

If they do, you'll have people going asking about little league stats in the future

Don’t prospectors already do this?

All prospectors say “yes” to the OP’s query. Interestingly they just don’t care about real MLB stats or unis :coffee:

[rwperu34]

Joey Gallo just needs 193 home runs to join the 500 Club and he's only 27. He should reach that mark by the time he's 33. Future Hall of Famer! Invest now!

I, for one, will take it!

[pspa123]

I wanted to just say no but the site requires the reply to be at least five characters, so I'll say no way.

How about Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[PejaD]

No unless you consider Mike Hessman a HoF

[mattsey9]

It would do wonders for Lefty O'Doul, who should already be in for the depth and breadth of his contributions to the game.

[cardsin47]

No - just like your High School Grades help get you in to College, but don’t count towards your Degree once you get there…..

[66_Fiat]

No - just like your High School Grades help get you in to College, but don’t count towards your Degree once you get there…..

I like a good counterpoint, and agree with this face value

[eye4talent]

Minor league performance? No.

But you touch on a potentially interesting point, in that economics of the game could theoretically affect a player’s career totals, if he were held down so that ownership could control him for longer and/or save money.

However, that really isn’t likely to impact a player’s HOF resume, because a player will likely only be held down for a couple weeks or a couple months.

Goldschmidt was an 8th round pick out of Texas State, so he wasn’t exactly expected to be on the fast track to the show. Still, he debuted just a little over two years after being drafted, skipping Triple-A in the process.

There’s an argument that Kris Bryant not only started 2015 in Triple-A because of service-time manipulation, but he probably could’ve handled MLB pitching in 2014. That said, he likely could be on the HOF path, regardless, if his production hadn’t dipped in the past few seasons.


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[66_Fiat]

If they do, you'll have people going asking about little league stats in the future

Don’t prospectors already do this?

All prospectors say “yes” to the OP’s query. Interestingly they just don’t care about real MLB stats or unis :coffee:

I only asked about their professional stat lines, and even stated at the end that collegiate stats don't matter.

Are you two so diluted that you only think about kids and the monetary value they can bring you?

Jesus...

[Archangel1775]

You jest, but will they really keep out a 500 HR guy outside of PED reasons?

I included his Milb stats as the OP suggested. He's actually sitting on 152 MLB home runs. I recalled an active player that mashed in the minors. Gallo was him...he hit 155 Pre-MLB.

But yes, 500 MLB home runs is one hell of an accomplishment and deserves enshrinement(outliers aside).

[cloakroom]

Minor league performance? No.

But you touch on a potentially interesting point, in that economics of the game could theoretically affect a player’s career totals, if he were held down so that ownership could control him for longer and/or save money.

However, that really isn’t likely to impact a player’s HOF resume, because a player will likely only be held down for a couple weeks or a couple months.

Goldschmidt was an 8th round pick out of Texas State, so he wasn’t exactly expected to be on the fast track to the show. Still, he debuted just a little over two years after being drafted, skipping Triple-A in the process.

There’s an argument that Kris Bryant not only started 2015 in Triple-A because of service-time manipulation, but he probably could’ve handled MLB pitching in 2014. That said, he likely could be on the HOF path, regardless, if his production hadn’t dipped in the past few seasons.


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there isn't an argument about KB, only a severely outlandish reach. don't mean to be a dick, but this is quite egregious.

[tlschwerz]

No, stop

[eye4talent]

there isn't an argument about KB, only a severely outlandish reach. don't mean to be a dick, but this is quite egregious.


What’s egregious?


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[cloakroom]

What’s egregious?


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you shoehorning KB into a HoF track because he was held down for a few months. there's no real argument for service time maniplution in '14 despite him hitting well. regardless, he's a great player who had their peak killed by injuires.

[eye4talent]

you shoehorning KB into a HoF track because he was held down for a few months. there's no real argument for service time maniplution in '14 despite him hitting well. regardless, he's a great player who had their peak killed by injuires.


Hmm... Feel free to re-read what I wrote. I suggested he could’ve come up in ‘14, but my point is that when he debuted has little or no impact on his HOF hopes—his production downturn these past few seasons is what has likely dampened any such hopes.


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[cloakroom]

Hmm... Feel free to re-read what I wrote. I suggested he could’ve come up in ‘14, but my point is that when he debuted has little or no impact on his HOF hopes—his production downturn these past few seasons is what has likely dampened any such hopes.


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no, i read it correctly. you implied there's an argument about whether KB would be on an HoF track if he hadn't been held down, and i'm simply saying saying there isn't.

[Silent George]

no, i read it correctly. you implied there's an argument about whether KB would be on an HoF track if he hadn't been held down, and i'm simply saying saying there isn't.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1477683&page=4

I track players on track by war by age and Bryant is indeed on track, at least according to fWAR.

[theshowandme]

I think the basketball hall of fame has an interesting way of evaluating players. They look at college, NBA, and FIBA contributions. That’s why someone like Vlade Divac is a HoFer. Not saying it’s right, but is definitely interesting.

Hideki Matsui is a great example of evaluating ones entire career in professional baseball. He would be a HoFer if everything was considered


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[clsports]

A player is a professional after being drafted and assigned to a minor league team. Why not count those stats too?

Post season should count too.

Having a productive HOF career past age 30 has become more rare. Players will need to be evaluated in a different way when careers are shorter.

[jhssketchcards]

Thee are plenty of MILB players who were tracking towards stardom but became average MLB players. Why should they be considered a HOF because they could hit AA or AAA pitching but not find star level success in the bigs? Think about how many guys the past 10 years alone were minor league studs and major league duds.

I think this question really evolves more around trying to prop up Bowman Chrome 1sts more than anything and seeing them as real RC.


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[clsports]

Thee are plenty of MILB players who were tracking towards stardom but became average MLB players. Why should they be considered a HOF because they could hit AA or AAA pitching but not find star level success in the bigs? Think about how many guys the past 10 years alone were minor league studs and major league duds.

I think this question really evolves more around trying to prop up Bowman Chrome 1sts more than anything and seeing them as real RC.

Huh? Do you really think the question was about players who ONLY excelled in MiLB?

And a pump thread for Bowman 1st? Oh man.

[griffan15]

No - just like your High School Grades help get you in to College, but don’t count towards your Degree once you get there…..

AP credits you earn in high school count towards college credits. Some kids can go to college with a semester worth of credits under their belt on day 1 of college.

[Jaypers]

All prospectors say “yes” to the OP’s query. Interestingly they just don’t care about real MLB stats or unis :coffee:

Fascinating. Every word in those sentences was wrong.

[80s Kid]

No, but I could see the hall taking into account foreign leagues if they really wanted to be a true baseball hall of fame, and not just an American baseball hall of fame.

[hundley]

Everyone is dunking on this question, but there's actually a great active player example of this happening that everyone may need to grapple with quite soon: Nelson Cruz.

I think we're probably back in a baseball epoch where 500 career home runs gets you in the hall of fame. I doubt anybody is going to make a fuss when David Ortiz gets etched into Cooperstown, probably in his first or second year on the ballot. Nelson Cruz is 41 years old and currently needs 52 more home runs to get 500. I personally think he's going to get it, at this point everyone should have learned to never bet against the guy, but there's always a chance he gets some fluke injury or whatever and he's just stuck thirty shy or something, or age just finally catches up to him. The guy has a great chance at getting McGriff'd if that happens.

If you look back at the early days of his career, he was actually just stashed away in Triple A even as late as his age 27 season, despite the fact that he had been completely annihilating minor league pitching for years. Of note was the 2007 season with Texas, when they decided to dump 350 at bats on Brandon Boggs for some completely unknowable reason. Cruz went on to hit 37 home runs in 103 games in Triple A that year(and 7 in 30 games in the bigs during a september callup), and was an all-star the next season. Given what he did when given everyday playing time, it's probably not unfair to conclude that he lost 30-35 career major league home runs during those three seasons when he was raking in the minors and not given serious consideration in the majors.

Cruz is definitely more of the late bloomer type anyway, but I think you could definitely argue that his hall of fame counting stats were hindered by just poor organizational management, not giving him a chance when he pretty clearly deserved it. Cruz is definitely more of the fringe hall of fame type player anyway, REALLY needing those counting stats to add up, and there's a very real chance that they won't because of just unfortunate circumstances. As far as I can tell, Cruz' 600+ career home runs put him in the top 20 of north american baseball history, and it'd be a shame if that just doesn't count for anything.

So yeah, I agree that you definitely do need to consider non-major league stats if the circumstances dictate it, as they do in Cruz' case. And there's a great chance of this happening again soon with how effective player development is nowadays and how aggressive virtually every front office is at getting every drop out of a player's service clock. It's not that those minor league numbers "count" exactly, but more a greater context for why a player's career numbers are what they were, which is something everybody needs to do for those guys in the gray area of hall consideration.

[jhssketchcards]

Everyone is dunking on this question, but there's actually a great active player example of this happening that everyone may need to grapple with quite soon: Nelson Cruz.

I think we're probably back in a baseball epoch where 500 career home runs gets you in the hall of fame. I doubt anybody is going to make a fuss when David Ortiz gets etched into Cooperstown, probably in his first or second year on the ballot. Nelson Cruz is 41 years old and currently needs 52 more home runs to get 500. I personally think he's going to get it, at this point everyone should have learned to never bet against the guy, but there's always a chance he gets some fluke injury or whatever and he's just stuck thirty shy or something, or age just finally catches up to him. The guy has a great chance at getting McGriff'd if that happens.

If you look back at the early days of his career, he was actually just stashed away in Triple A even as late as his age 27 season, despite the fact that he had been completely annihilating minor league pitching for years. Of note was the 2007 season with Texas, when they decided to dump 350 at bats on Brandon Boggs for some completely unknowable reason. Cruz went on to hit 37 home runs in 103 games in Triple A that year(and 7 in 30 games in the bigs during a september callup), and was an all-star the next season. Given what he did when given everyday playing time, it's probably not unfair to conclude that he lost 30-35 career major league home runs during those three seasons when he was raking in the minors and not given serious consideration in the majors.

Cruz is definitely more of the late bloomer type anyway, but I think you could definitely argue that his hall of fame counting stats were hindered by just poor organizational management, not giving him a chance when he pretty clearly deserved it. Cruz is definitely more of the fringe hall of fame type player anyway, REALLY needing those counting stats to add up, and there's a very real chance that they won't because of just unfortunate circumstances. As far as I can tell, Cruz' 600+ career home runs put him in the top 20 of north american baseball history, and it'd be a shame if that just doesn't count for anything.

So yeah, I agree that you definitely do need to consider non-major league stats if the circumstances dictate it, as they do in Cruz' case. And there's a great chance of this happening again soon with how effective player development is nowadays and how aggressive virtually every front office is at getting every drop out of a player's service clock. It's not that those minor league numbers "count" exactly, but more a greater context for why a player's career numbers are what they were, which is something everybody needs to do for those guys in the gray area of hall consideration.


I guess the fact he’s a PED user had nothing to do with possible HOF career


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[Silent George]

I guess the fact he’s a PED user had nothing to do with possible HOF career


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Yeah he’s an especially bad example with PEDs.

There are a lot of players who’s weren’t given a chance until they were older.

Go ahead and tell me Brian Giles wasn’t a hall of fame talent.

But there’s a difference in recognizing a player who got screwed by taken evaluation or game corruption and not counting that against them - and saying the 15 home runs you hit in rookie ball should actually count for your totals.

It’s like giving Buzz Aldrin credit for his vertical because damn that guy had some ups on the moon.

[jhssketchcards]

Yeah he’s an especially bad example with PEDs.

There are a lot of players who’s weren’t given a chance until they were older.

Go ahead and tell me Brian Giles wasn’t a hall of fame talent.

But there’s a difference in recognizing a player who got screwed by taken evaluation or game corruption and not counting that against them - and saying the 15 home runs you hit in rookie ball should actually count for your totals.

It’s like giving Buzz Aldrin credit for his vertical because damn that guy had some ups on the moon.


Giles was one of my favorite back in the day. Dude could mash. To me if you have to dive into minor league totals to make a case for a guys HOF then he shouldn’t be in.


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[Silent George]

Giles was one of my favorite back in the day. Dude could mash. To me if you have to dive into minor league totals to make a case for a guys HOF then he shouldn’t be in.


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I don't care about milb so far in what the numbers were, except the Giles himself crushed the minors and couldn't get a real spot in the majors.

1993 at age 22 his OPS was .861 in AA. he hit .327.
So he gets promoted to AAA for 1994
.869 OPS, hits .313 - granted it's a strike year so there is strategic reason to not bring him up to the MLB.

But that's 1994. He was clearly a major leaguer in 1994.

1995? Back in AAA. 896 in AAA. Hit .310
He got a total of 9 at bats in the majors in 1995. 5 hits and a HR.

1996? BACK IN AAA. DEAR GOD. 25 years old with a .989 OPS in AAA for more than half the season.

The guy still had 52 at bats in AAA in 1998.

So he ends his career a fringey vets choice guy. But he fell 103 hits short of 2,000. And he fell 13 home runs short of 300.

And the answer to those milestones isn't that he couldn't make it, but rather the Indians apparently had no idea what sort of talent he had, and kept him rotting literally through prime years. of COURSE he would have had 2,000 hits and 300 home runs, and a whole lot more if you gave him at least 2 more full seasons in the majors.

And so I think THAT counts. That it wasn't injuries, and it wasn't that he was a late bloomer. It was that he happened to play for the Indians when Albert Belle, Kenny Lofton, and Manny Ramirez were their OF, and Eddie Murray was a DH. That's 4 HOF players right there, by the numbers. and I don't think Giles should be punished because the Indians let him rot instead of trading him.

I think it's dumb to look at minor league numbers and say they count - I think it's smart to look at the context of a player's career and say he was a Hall of Famer without typical career totals because of reasons beyond his control.

By the way, the Indians traded him for Ricardo Rincon. Who was a solid semi-closer for the Pirates, but was never intended to be anything more than a middle reliever for the Indians, so it's pretty clear the Indians just didn't know what they had.

[Triple B]

It won’t, but as much as it is largely ignored, at the end of the day it’s not the MLB Hall of Fame, it’s the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[Silent George]

It won’t, but as much as it is largely ignored, at the end of the day it’s not the MLB Hall of Fame, it’s the Baseball Hall of Fame.

It’s the National Baseball Hall of Fame, which does imply at least that it’s not a worldwide thing.

All of their eligibility rules specify major league criteria.

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning fifteen (15) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.

B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3(A).

C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.

So players must have the major league credentials to make the vote. But the guidelines for what to consider when voting don’t specify only major leagues in them. Just contributions to the teams. But I’d think this is one of those things they didn’t realize they’d have to specify.

[EastonElite]

It's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of STATISTICS.

[no10pin]

Everyone is dunking on this question, but there's actually a great active player example of this happening that everyone may need to grapple with quite soon: Nelson Cruz.

I think we're probably back in a baseball epoch where 500 career home runs gets you in the hall of fame. I doubt anybody is going to make a fuss when David Ortiz gets etched into Cooperstown, probably in his first or second year on the ballot. Nelson Cruz is 41 years old and currently needs 52 more home runs to get 500. I personally think he's going to get it, at this point everyone should have learned to never bet against the guy, but there's always a chance he gets some fluke injury or whatever and he's just stuck thirty shy or something, or age just finally catches up to him. The guy has a great chance at getting McGriff'd if that happens.

If you look back at the early days of his career, he was actually just stashed away in Triple A even as late as his age 27 season, despite the fact that he had been completely annihilating minor league pitching for years. Of note was the 2007 season with Texas, when they decided to dump 350 at bats on Brandon Boggs for some completely unknowable reason. Cruz went on to hit 37 home runs in 103 games in Triple A that year(and 7 in 30 games in the bigs during a september callup), and was an all-star the next season. Given what he did when given everyday playing time, it's probably not unfair to conclude that he lost 30-35 career major league home runs during those three seasons when he was raking in the minors and not given serious consideration in the majors.

Cruz is definitely more of the late bloomer type anyway, but I think you could definitely argue that his hall of fame counting stats were hindered by just poor organizational management, not giving him a chance when he pretty clearly deserved it. Cruz is definitely more of the fringe hall of fame type player anyway, REALLY needing those counting stats to add up, and there's a very real chance that they won't because of just unfortunate circumstances. As far as I can tell, Cruz' 600+ career home runs put him in the top 20 of north american baseball history, and it'd be a shame if that just doesn't count for anything.

So yeah, I agree that you definitely do need to consider non-major league stats if the circumstances dictate it, as they do in Cruz' case. And there's a great chance of this happening again soon with how effective player development is nowadays and how aggressive virtually every front office is at getting every drop out of a player's service clock. It's not that those minor league numbers "count" exactly, but more a greater context for why a player's career numbers are what they were, which is something everybody needs to do for those guys in the gray area of hall consideration.

Barry Bonds isn't in the HOF after 9 years on the ballot because of PEDs. No one is going to have to grapple with Nelson Cruz's HOF chances.

[jhssketchcards]

Barry Bonds isn't in the HOF after 9 years on the ballot because of PEDs. No one is going to have to grapple with Nelson Cruz's HOF chances.


Cruz also is a PED user who actually was suspended. Doubt he gets in


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[discostu]

I think minor league stats are far more applicable to be added for players 100 years ago where they were basically indentured servants, beholden to their owners.

A guy like Lefty Grove was owned by Jack Dunn (the same owner who sold Babe Ruth to Boston), who then sold Grove to Philadelphia after he had won 110 games for the Baltimore Orioles. In these days, minor leagues were unaffiliated, so players had no ability to get "promoted" without a trade or sale of their contract to an MLB team.

My grandfather's best friend spent 8 seasons with the Orioles as Jack Dunn refused to sell him to the numerous MLB teams that wanted him. From ages 19 to 26, he batted .336 and slugged .518 and won numerous batting titles for the International League. There was no reason for Dunn to sell Dick Porter. Dick was the key to Baltimore winning International League titles, and he was an all-star and fan favorite. Only when Dunn died in 1928 did Porter get a chance in the Majors when he was sold to Cleveland for the 1929 season.

Now, am I arguing that Dick Porter is a Hall of Fame caliber player based on his minor league stats? No, not at all. However understanding the playing era is important.

[k13]

HOF getting worse every year and now they want to make it even more weaker....

[Silent George]

It's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of STATISTICS.

Whew! Glad this is settled now. Debate over. We can all go home.

[Silent George]

HOF getting worse every year and now they want to make it even more weaker....

Fun fact. For the last 30 years or so the average WAR of a hall of famer has gone up.

[Westwave]

HOF getting worse every year and now they want to make it even more weaker....

So the HOF is like your daily posts.

[k13]

Fun fact. For the last 30 years or so the average WAR of a hall of famer has gone up.

Because those are the players from the 90's still not recent players.

[ewokpelts]

No. Because if you’re that good in the minors, you’d be in the big leagues.

[cardsin47]

AP credits you earn in high school count towards college credits. Some kids can go to college with a semester worth of credits under their belt on day 1 of college.

I’m pretty sure that most of the Athletic Scholarship Athletes in all Sports don’t even know what an AP credit is, much less have earned them ….. :coffee:

[no10pin]

Cruz also is a PED user who actually was suspended. Doubt he gets in


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I'm aware. That was exactly my point.