Browning Top Loaders

[grade]

What to do with browning top loaders ?
Some questions:

1- Do they effect the card eventually?
2- Just change the top loader? (it is sleeved and in a team bag when first stored)
3- Just slab them for safe keeping with a cheap company like CSG or wait till PSA fees come down?
4- Any newer advancement in top loaders that dont brown ?
5- Any idea would be interesting.

I mostly collect vintage pokemon cards and took great care of the Pokemon Cards in climate controlled areas. The sports cards i collected decades ago were just top loaded and stored in boxes and left where ever in the closet or garage over the years.

:confused:

Have few boxes of browning top loaders , cannot even find a couple of other boxes that i know i have somewere. errr:doh:

https://i.imgur.com/QPEKSWu.jpg?1

[heatdawg]

I tossed all of mine but I am interested to hear what other ideas are thrown around.

I should have kept them for grading though looking back, or is that not a good idea to send your expected PSA 10's in a beat up top loader? I would think it should be fine but ya never know.

[discodanman45]

I have sent in many cards from my youth to PSA that existed 30 years in top loaders that were extremely yellow. None of the yellowing hurt the card, but they were also stored in penny sleeves. The only damage I have seen from these top loaders were cards not stored in penny sleeves and cards with glossy coating stuck to the top loader. I have seen lots of paper product stored without penny sleeves in yellowed top loaders and they were completely fine.

I sold all my yellow top loaders during the height of the grading frenzy when no Card Savers or top loaders were available. Making a huge profit on disgusting top loaders made me feel bad for the buyer, but they were happy for sending in their cards for grading.

Eventually plastic will have issues. The newer top loaders will probably last longer than older generations, but nothing is forever. They will eventually break down, yellow, crack, etc... We have only been grading cards for a few decades. Eventually all these graded cases will have issues, but it will be decades from now.

[Grid]

Fun fact. Bromine was used in those old ABS plastics. When exposed to UV light, those bromine molecules can destabilize and leech through to the surface, causing the plastic to turn yellow (or even brown if left long enough).

This leeching can, and most likely will over time, degrade anything that touches it. If your cards are in a sleeve (typically poly) that sleeve should prevent any damage from the bromine break down.

Newer ABS plastics are higher quality, and do not use much Bromine (which itself is just a fire retardant) BUT, since much of the plastics used today actually use older recycled plastics (that had Bromine) it is still very much around.

Your old top loaders have the same yellowing/browning effect as old keyboards and desk top PCs and such. Those all turned dingy after awhile.

If you care about the cards, use a new top loader and Id even replace the penny sleeve, as it might have some leeching plastics on it from the old top loaders.

If they are just dollar cards you wanted to bag, chances are they will still be fine in those older holders.

[grade]

I have sent in many cards from my youth to PSA that existed 30 years in top loaders that were extremely yellow. None of the yellowing hurt the card, but they were also stored in penny sleeves. The only damage I have seen from these top loaders were cards not stored in penny sleeves and cards with glossy coating stuck to the top loader. I have seen lots of paper product stored without penny sleeves in yellowed top loaders and they were completely fine.

I sold all my yellow top loaders during the height of the grading frenzy when no Card Savers or top loaders were available. Making a huge profit on disgusting top loaders made me feel bad for the buyer, but they were happy for sending in their cards for grading.

Eventually plastic will have issues. The newer top loaders will probably last longer than older generations, but nothing is forever. They will eventually break down, yellow, crack, etc... We have only been grading cards for a few decades. Eventually all these graded cases will have issues, but it will be decades from now.

They all penny sleeved and team bagged. If the browning does not effected the card, less handling is better . Maybe just leave them as.

Now, send them in to a cheap grading company like CSG to just have them slabbed or wait to PSA fees come down?

Do PSA and grading companies still accept top loaders for subs or they want Card Savers 1 again?

The inconsistencies of grading. :doh:

[jplarson]

I reuse them as packing material around a clean top loader with the card(s) inside.

[51CardDeck]

should be able to get rid of most of the yellowing/browning by soaking in Hydrogen Peroxide, wrap in a plastic bag and leave out in direct sunlight for several hours.

This works on many plastic items such as old toys, so should work on top loaders too.

[Grid]

should be able to get rid of most of the yellowing/browning by soaking in Hydrogen Peroxide, wrap in a plastic bag and leave out in direct sunlight for several hours.

This works on many plastic items such as old toys, so should work on top loaders too.

I wouldn't stick a card back into a loader after you do this. While it might work to reduce the yellowing, you are also leaving that chemical behind. Which does not interact well with cardboard.

And once you seal the loader in a team bag, you are then creating a sealed environment, and Hydrogen Peroxide can produce heat.

[Promethius88]

I thought this was going to be a post about Browning SA-22's.

[grade]

I thought this was going to be a post about Browning SA-22's.

i aint that old
:D

[DynaEtch]

Your old top loaders have the same yellowing/browning effect as old keyboards and desk top PCs and such.

Ah, so that's why all those old snes consoles have yellowed. Assuming they used ABS plastic. Interesting.

[CicadaMound]

Toploaders are made of PVC, not ABS. Coin collectors hate PVC because it leaves a residue on coins stored in it over time, especially if it's the soft kind with plasticizers. I imagine the hard kind also leaches chlorine and could damage surfaces. I collected coins before I started with cards so I'm inherently suspicious of any toploader, and if I'm using one I always use a penny sleeve. I have most of my stuff other than base in sleeves only or sleeved in acid-free, polypropylene binder pages. That said, I don't sell much so I don't need anything that can survive rough handling.

[discodanman45]

They all penny sleeved and team bagged. If the browning does not effected the card, less handling is better . Maybe just leave them as.

Now, send them in to a cheap grading company like CSG to just have them slabbed or wait to PSA fees come down?

Do PSA and grading companies still accept top loaders for subs or they want Card Savers 1 again?

The inconsistencies of grading. :doh:

Until you are ready to grade, I would just leave them as is. I had some in top loaders that were so yellow that you couldn't make out the card inside that I put in the top loader ins 1988. Thirty something years later, they were in the same condition as I put them in from the pack.

Don't use Top loaders to send in. PSA says it can add time to your order. CSG gives out kits with Card Savers. In my opinion, it is much easier to get a card out of a Card Saver and less risk to the card. Plus the people working there mainly deal with Card Savers.

[RAV2773]

I also use them as packaging protection on cards I ship. One on each side of a good top loader inside of a team bag works well.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[dantheman514]

My yellowed or browned toploaders go into the recycle bin.

[Dielon]

I usually always throw them out. I have a stack of toploaders a mile high, I dont need to use the brown ones.

[thenwhatjk]

The Browning Nagle 1000 stripe I once pulled is housed in a toploader

[dantheman514]

The Browning Nagle 1000 stripe I once pulled is housed in a toploader

Is the toploader browning? It seems appropriate to have a Browning Nagle in a browning toploader. :D

[willcurt76]

I use them as extra protection when shipping cards, either that or just trash them

[matt roberson]

I wouldn't stick a card back into a loader after you do this. While it might work to reduce the yellowing, you are also leaving that chemical behind. Which does not interact well with cardboard.

And once you seal the loader in a team bag, you are then creating a sealed environment, and Hydrogen Peroxide can produce heat.

Which chemical? the oxygen or the water? lol.

[longhornjunkie]

Put them in your stack of emergency filler stock along with the marked and scotch-taped ones in case the supply/prices get haywire again.

[longhornjunkie]

Which chemical? the oxygen or the water? lol.

Since you mentioned it... not sure I want water getting on my cards.

[matt roberson]

For the cost of one or two cards to be graded buy a couple hundred new top loaders that are made of much higher quality plastic then the ones from the 80's and give them a new home. A new top loader should last you another 50 years plus they now have much better UV protection.

You could still grade some of the more high value ones that look clean but blanket grading them is probably a bad idea.

[matt roberson]

Since you mentioned it... not sure I want water getting on my cards.

Me either, I would probably let the water evaporate first.

[BostonNut]

Good grief...I can't believe what some of you guys throw away. Look on eBay for what used toploaders go for for crying out loud! :cry:

[cms11]

Good grief...I can't believe what some of you guys throw away. Look on eBay for what used toploaders go for for crying out loud! :cry:

I throw them out too. A pack of 35 are under $5 new.

[Grid]

Which chemical? the oxygen or the water? lol.

Why is this funny? You do know that Hydrogen Peroxide is a chemical compound , right? And that it is also used as a bleaching agent, right?

No way I would put a card into a top loader that was soaking in Hydrogen Peroxide. But feel free to do so, and report back to base!

[matt roberson]

Why is this funny? You do know that Hydrogen Peroxide is a chemical compound , right? And that it is also used as a bleaching agent, right?

No way I would put a card into a top loader that was soaking in Hydrogen Peroxide. But feel free to do so, and report back to base!

Yes I know it is a chemical compound..... H2O2

I also know that the bond of the second oxygen atom is very weak and it reacts with almost anything reverting back to H2O and O2, both of which are constantly in the atmosphere you are currently breathing and you cards are currently exposed to.

That's why it's funny to me, because I understand simple chemistry, and know in diluted form its not very harmful.

In a high concentration, like any oxidizer, it can be nasty! And if mixed with sulfuric acid (piranha solution) it will dissolve any organic compound down to its base elements (H,C,O)

Our world is made up of chemical compounds, just because it is a chemical compound does not make it hazardous or damaging to you or your cards.
So no its not going to do anything to your cards on its own, what it does when it reacts with bromine I do not know and that could be an issue, but I just throw them away and get a new one so not something I will ever think about again.

[Grid]

Yes I know it is a chemical compound..... H2O2

I also know that the bond of the second oxygen atom is very weak and it reacts with almost anything reverting back to H2O and O2, both of which are constantly in the atmosphere you are currently breathing and you cards are currently exposed to.

That's why it's funny to me, because I understand simple chemistry, and know in diluted form its not very harmful.

In a high concentration, like any oxidizer, it can be nasty! And if mixed with sulfuric acid (piranha solution) it will dissolve any organic compound down to its base elements (H,C,O)

Our world is made up of chemical compounds, just because it is a chemical compound does not make it hazardous or damaging to you or your cards.
So no its not going to do anything to your cards on its own, what it does when it reacts with bromine I do not know and that could be an issue, but I just throw them away and get a new one so not something I will ever think about again.

I am not denying that it can be used as a cleaner. I am just saying I wouldn't use it to clean something I would then stick a card inside of.

You understand simple chemistry, and compare this compound to the hydrogen that is in our air, and around our cards? You do understand that the hydrogen around us is barely measurable, right? 0.00005%

Even if diluted down to 6%, its still strong enough to bleach hair. I still don't see why its funny, and I still wouldn't recommend someone to saturate a top loader in it, and then place a card and seal it all up in a team bag.

Which was my comment, that you found so funny. But you do you!

[matt roberson]

I am not denying that it can be used as a cleaner. I am just saying I wouldn't use it to clean something I would then stick a card inside of.

You understand simple chemistry, and compare this compound to the hydrogen that is in our air, and around our cards? You do understand that the hydrogen around us is barely measurable, right? 0.00005%

Even if diluted down to 6%, its still strong enough to bleach hair. I still don't see why its funny, and I still wouldn't recommend someone to saturate a top loader in it, and then place a card and seal it all up in a team bag.

Which was my comment, that you found so funny. But you do you!

Re read my comment…. I said nothing about Hydrogen. I mentioned water and oxygen (in its natural state, also it’s most stable state…O2)… humidity may vary depending on where you live or time of year but is always in the air, and O2 which makes up about 19-21% of our atmosphere.

Neither of which you can or would want to be without.

Normally your comments are pretty on but with this thread you are way off the mark, that’s why I found it funny.

[CicadaMound]

Thermal degradation of PVC: A review (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0956053X15302233)

Here's some thoughts after reading the abstracts of one or two papers.

When PVC breaks down, it turns into hydrochloric acid and polyene. The hydrochloric acid can damage paper, which is why you always sleeve cards before toploading them. Penny sleeves are made of polypropylene, which doesn't break down to form acid, and acts as a barrier between the acid and the card. Over time, if it's stored without a team bag, the acid will vent off the open end of the toploader, but some might fall back down over the open end of the sleeve and cause the top of the card to become brittle.

The other compound that forms is polyene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyene), which isn't a single chemical but a class of chemicals with similar structures. Polyenes have long chains of alternating single and double bonds, which causes many of them to be brightly colored. An example of a polyene is beta-carotene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%92-Carotene), the compound that makes carrots orange. What forms in a toploader is a mixture of lots of different polyene compounds. As more and more PVC reacts to form polyenes over time, the toploader will get darker and darker.

Polyene compounds are probably better for your cards than hydrochloric acid, but the double bonds in the structure make them more reactive than polypropylene, which only has single bonds. Basically, they're "stickier" than the plastic in a penny sleeve and could, theoretically, cause damage if it gets on a card. The polypropylene penny sleeve would protect the card from that, too.

Despite being "stickier" in a sense, polyene is also more rigid than PVC and is more brittle. PVC only has single bonds, so the long strands of the molecules can wrap around each other and get tangled, while the double bonds in polyene mean they're more like rods and slide past each other more.

1- Do they effect the card eventually?
Probably. The acid and sticky polyene would harm cards over time but cards are hurt more by water, mechanical damage from falls, and fading by light to worry too much about chemical damage.

2- Just change the top loader? (it is sleeved and in a team bag when first stored)
For longer-term storage in a toploader it's better to keep them sleeved but unbagged, somewhere protected from water. Changing the toploader would add more acid into the system, but would protect it better from falls. Bagging it protects from falls and water but keeps the acid in. It's your call.

3- Just slab them for safe keeping with a cheap company like CSG or wait till PSA fees come down?
Slabbing is a better long term solution to keep cards safe, but it's expensive and not worth it for many cards. If you think it's worth it go ahead. All slabs
from serious companies (ie, one level higher than some guy in his basement) are going to be made of more archival material than PVC.

4- Any newer advancement in top loaders that dont brown ?
No idea, but other common clear plastics seem either too soft or too rigid and thus brittle to exactly replace PVC toploaders. Otherwise there'd be an obvious product to recommend.

5- Any idea would be interesting.
I think a good middle ground between the expense of grading, the archival safety and bulk of magnetics, and the ease of handling of toploaders is the Pro-Mold Mini Snap (https://pro-mold.com/minisnaps.html). I've never used them, but they're thinner and cheaper than mags and slabs and made of safer material than toploaders. You could even bag them without trapping acid. There has to be a reason no one uses them, though.

I have no idea what semirigids are made of, but they never claim to be "archival" so I assume they're PVC too.

Like I said earlier, I keep most of my cards that I want to look at in 9-pocket pages, and better bulk cards penny sleeved in cardboard boxes.

Sources: I have 3ish years of a chemistry degree and a longstanding passing interest in archival storage (I'm a hoarder but want to be scientific about it).

[pro-mold]

Thermal degradation of PVC: A review (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0956053X15302233)


5- Any idea would be interesting.
I think a good middle ground between the expense of grading, the archival safety and bulk of magnetics, and the ease of handling of toploaders is the Pro-Mold Mini Snap (https://pro-mold.com/minisnaps.html). I've never used them, but they're thinner and cheaper than mags and slabs and made of safer material than toploaders. You could even bag them without trapping acid. There has to be a reason no one uses them, though.



We sell a lot of regular mini-snaps actually and they are archival safe. An even better product is our new improved version with the recessed, arrowhead corners: PC1II (http://www.pro-mold.com/pc1ii.html)


Ed Neugebauer Jr.
Vice-President
Pro-Mold