Did WhatNot Open a FAKE 1986-87 Fleer Basketball Box at The National?

[Thebirdman321]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qthBP-XBTvw


Thoughts?

[tmar214]

Sure seems like it. Thats brutal.

[siebertb]

cesspool

[CanadianKid]

crazy stuff

[gottagitdemjs]

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

I think he's spot on. Someone had about $40k worth of 86-87 fleer cards and a used box with the wrappers and turned it into $100k.

[JustRachel]

Wait, you mean someone who said they knew what they were doing was exaggerating? In the sports card industry? No, say it ain't so! Can't be!

[glen87]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1528266

[mc1]

https://c.tenor.com/siKk_EjvS4gAAAAd/duped-we-all-got-duped.gif

[rifleman69]

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

I think he's spot on. Someone had about $40k worth of 86-87 fleer cards and a used box with the wrappers and turned it into $100k.

$168,000

[gododgersfan]

This is ugly and not a good take for the hobby. Questions: where did the box come from, is the BBCE wrapping original or home made, did BBCE actually authenticate the box, and etc.

[sethc1020]

This is ugly and not a good take for the hobby. Questions: where did the box come from, is the BBCE wrapping original or home made, did BBCE actually authenticate the box, and etc.

Now way that not one of them opening the packs didn't know something was off pulling Johnson after Johnson, consecutive numbering, and in alphabetical order. I really would like to know who all was involved in the entire thing and how much they did or didn't know before hand. Very Very bad look.

[Nomad]

If you subscribe to that theory, guess they got the good and bad boxes mixed up.

[JAMSC]

Uh oh…

https://youtu.be/vL33mtprMZY

[jr24ai3]

Now way that not one of them opening the packs didn't know something was off pulling Johnson after Johnson, consecutive numbering, and in alphabetical order. I really would like to know who all was involved in the entire thing and how much they did or didn't know before hand. Very Very bad look.

It was a really odd box. When I saw the first pack, my first thought it was no good. It seemed like it had the correct cards that would typically be in that pack, however they did not alternate like they should. They were grouped together alphabetically instead. Maybe that's happened before, but I've never seen that type of sequencing in the packs.

It's normally something like:

Kellogg
Williams
Jordan
Williams
Johnson

Instead it was Kellogg/Jordan/Johnson then a separate group with the W's.

It's not unusual to have multiple cards in a pack with the last name Johnson. It's just odd that they were all in a row instead of each Johnson being separated by another card.

[Chris P]

Now way that not one of them opening the packs didn't know something was off pulling Johnson after Johnson, consecutive numbering, and in alphabetical order. I really would like to know who all was involved in the entire thing and how much they did or didn't know before hand. Very Very bad look.

I also kinda thought it was strange when Packman was pulling doubles in the same pack.

[cruiserdaddy7]

BBCE keeps on failing. Scary the blind trust so many have put in that greedy fat pig.

[MIRRABB]

this hobby is constant entertainment

[Aardvark]

BBCE keeps on failing. Scary the blind trust so many have put in that greedy fat pig.

Especially since it seems he authenticates packs for PSA which opens a huge can of worms for them, in my insignificant opinion. .

[cruiserdaddy7]

Especially since it seems he authenticates packs for PSA which opens a huge can of worms for them, in my insignificant opinion. .

There have been issues with his authenticated packs through PSA before as well. Probably not an isolated mistake.

[brettmik59]

I would not feel great about sitting on "sealed" wax of any high value product right now.

[Ferg1945]

Uh oh…

https://youtu.be/vL33mtprMZY

:eek:

Things are about to get interesting

[AbraCalabro]

#hobbystrong
#growingthehobby

lmao

[AbraCalabro]

Uh oh…

https://youtu.be/vL33mtprMZY

vL33mtprMZY

[auburn35]

This is ugly and not a good take for the hobby. Questions: where did the box come from, is the BBCE wrapping original or home made, did BBCE actually authenticate the box, and etc.

Looking at the wrapping, the one Goldin sold, appears to be the same box that BBCE authenticated.

https://shop.bbcexchange.com/ebay/auth/x0851.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZ5qL21UYAEscP5?format=jpg&name=small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZ5qMTSUIAEndvA?format=jpg&name=small

[Tonic3]

I didn't watch the break or follow it, but how many Jordan rc's did they pull out of the box? I guess even if they pulled a couple the person faking the box could have replaced the original ones pulled with lesser quality copies (off center, bad corners, etc...).

[KhalDrogo]

I didn't watch the break or follow it, but how many Jordan rc's did they pull out of the box? I guess even if they pulled a couple the person faking the box could have replaced the original ones pulled with lesser quality copies (off center, bad corners, etc...).
They pulled three. A 5, 5, and 6. And everyone was crying how ridiculous was to grade these pack fresh examples so low.

BBCE will say the box was resealed. Too bad these dumb dumb with whatnot didn’t catch it live.

[GOATcards]

can anything be trusted in this hobby, AbraCalabro, what with the PSA 8 Wagner's history being what it is? :doh:
sXQ940YSD2A

[YayNJ]

It's hilarious (not in a good way) just how many low-life-scumbags there are in this "hobby".

I genuinely can't think of anything else like it, where there is such a concentration of thieving corrupt criminals than sportscards / pokemon.

Look at the state of this whole situation. A crappy selling platform having packs opened by "youtube celebs" most of which are completely and utterly clueless. This hobby since 2018 has been on a rollercoaster to the gutter and is nothing but bulls hit, thieves and fame whores.

[ChefCurry312]

After seeing the BBCE sealed Pokémon case incident, I feel like their authentication is mostly security theater.

[Tonic3]

They pulled three. A 5, 5, and 6. And everyone was crying how ridiculous was to grade these pack fresh examples so low.

BBCE will say the box was resealed. Too bad these dumb dumb with whatnot didn’t catch it live.

Wow, so lets do the math. The box cost $168,000 so a single pack is roughly $4,667. The people that were lucky enough to hit one of the three Jordan's then had to grade it which adds on a few hundred dollars to the cost. A PSA 6 sold on eBay on Aug 9th for $4,450. So essentially the "luckiest" person in the break still lost money. Just shows how stupid the pricing is for these boxes.

Even if all 3 Jordan's would've graded a PSA 9, that's only about $60,000 in value. Nothing like throwing away a guaranteed 80-100k.

[MJGOAT23]

After seeing the BBCE sealed Pokémon case incident, I feel like their authentication is mostly security theater.

I've bought plenty of items from them with no issues, BBCE wrapped or not but when it comes to 86 Fleer, IMO it is far and away the most tampered with product industry wide, and has been for 30 years. Besides that find from upstate NY and the case that was auctioned a couple years ago or whenever it was, are any real boxes actually left of this stuff? I certainly wonder.

[KhalDrogo]

Wow, so lets do the math. The box cost $168,000 so a single pack is roughly $4,667. The people that were lucky enough to hit one of the three Jordan's then had to grade it which adds on a few hundred dollars to the cost. A PSA 6 sold on eBay on Aug 9th for $4,450. So essentially the "luckiest" person in the break still lost money. Just shows how stupid the pricing is for these boxes.

Even if all 3 Jordan's would've graded a PSA 9, that's only about $60,000 in value. Nothing like throwing away a guaranteed 80-100k.
It was a free break.

[YayNJ]

It was a free break.

It wasn't for somebody.

[mindcycle]

The scam fallout from the hobby boom is going to last for years to come.

Too much money to be made for scammers, buyers with more money than hobby knowledge. Social media clout over actually researching what they're buying..

[MJGOAT23]

Wow, so lets do the math. The box cost $168,000 so a single pack is roughly $4,667. The people that were lucky enough to hit one of the three Jordan's then had to grade it which adds on a few hundred dollars to the cost. A PSA 6 sold on eBay on Aug 9th for $4,450. So essentially the "luckiest" person in the break still lost money. Just shows how stupid the pricing is for these boxes.

Even if all 3 Jordan's would've graded a PSA 9, that's only about $60,000 in value. Nothing like throwing away a guaranteed 80-100k.

Box pricing is stupid for any product really but the market value for an '86 box is in the item being authentic and unopened more so than the potential contents. Prices have ALWAYS been higher than a great scenario of pulling 3 PSA 10 MJ's. When these were 30K a box, MJ PSA 10's were in the 10K range and so on.

[RogerGodahell]

I would not feel great about sitting on "sealed" wax of any high value product right now.

The silver lining is at least it was a free giveaway. It's not a good look for BBCE though. I'm glad i never wasted any money sending stuff to them. I thought about it at one time.

I feel pretty confident about the unopened stuff i have. 99% of it was bought as a presale when the product was brand new and wasn't worth a whole lot at the time. But i can see the concern about who is legit to buy from now and who isn't. Worst case scenario i would break the stuff myself and offer refunds to all buyers if i ever found a box that was bogus. I might have to do that someday. I'll cross that bridge when i get there.

[pete2345]

Guy needs to sand down his drywall looks terrible obviously plenty of time on his hands.

[tjforce]

The scam fallout from the hobby boom is going to last for years to come.

Too much money to be made for scammers, buyers with more money than hobby knowledge. Social media clout over actually researching what they're buying..

Can you remember a time in the hobby that wasn't full of scammers?

[boxbuster7]

Can't believe Packman made a surprise appearance. I thought he only opened new products.

[YayNJ]

Can't believe Packman made a surprise appearance. I thought he only opened new products.

I had no idea he was so popular. I've only ever seen him bumbling through retail blaster boxes and doing slow card slide reveals of base prizm cards.

[ChefCurry312]

I've bought plenty of items from them with no issues, BBCE wrapped or not but when it comes to 86 Fleer, IMO it is far and away the most tampered with product industry wide, and has been for 30 years. Besides that find from upstate NY and the case that was auctioned a couple years ago or whenever it was, are any real boxes actually left of this stuff? I certainly wonder.

A majority of BBCE wrapped stuff is probably legit. IMO, BBCE is effective at scaring off scammers and catching the more obvious fakes. I think skilled scammers can pass their authentication because they don't have expert knowledge on particular products and don't dedicate enough time to research/authenticate.

For the Pokemon case, it was a high-value authentication and supposedly the one in existence. BBCE didn't even bother to look into the bar code (1st red flag) or research the chain of ownership (tons of red flags).

[mc1]

I didn't watch the break or follow it, but how many Jordan rc's did they pull out of the box? I guess even if they pulled a couple the person faking the box could have replaced the original ones pulled with lesser quality copies (off center, bad corners, etc...).

Total of three.

Already answered!

[YayNJ]

A majority of BBCE wrapped stuff is probably legit. IMO, BBCE is effective at scaring off scammers and catching the more obvious fakes. I think skilled scammers can pass their authentication because they don't have expert knowledge on particular products and don't dedicate enough time to research/authenticate.

For the Pokemon case, it was a high-value authentication and supposedly the one in existence. BBCE didn't even bother to look into the bar code (1st red flag) or research the chain of ownership (tons of red flags).

Then they shouldn't be offering the service that they do.

C'mon man, this is one of the more famous boxes in Basketball.

[cruiserdaddy7]

Then they shouldn't be offering the service that they do.

C'mon man, this is one of the more famous boxes in Basketball.

Exactly. The fact people make excuses after some massive fails amazes me. And Steve Hart has no guarantees, so what good is the service?

[mc1]

It's hilarious (not in a good way) just how many low-life-scumbags there are in this "hobby".

I genuinely can't think of anything else like it, where there is such a concentration of thieving corrupt criminals than sportscards / pokemon.

Look at the state of this whole situation. A crappy selling platform having packs opened by "youtube celebs" most of which are completely and utterly clueless. This hobby since 2018 has been on a rollercoaster to the gutter and is nothing but bulls hit, thieves and fame whores.

I once worked with and dealt with future medical professionals.

Full of scumbags, cheaters and liars. A couple killers too.

Thats just human nature.

[GOATcards]

speaking of unopened 86 fleer wax, what ever became of the 'Baseball Card Kid' from the '90s who did high volume on that? does chain-of-custody documentation make a 'Kid'-authenticated box carry a premium?

[hxcmilkshake]

speaking of unopened 86 fleer wax, what ever became of the 'Baseball Card Kid' from the '90s who did high volume on that? does chain-of-custody documentation make a 'Kid'-authenticated box carry a premium?If I recall some of his stuff had issues too.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

[boston12]

Why does he yell like that at the end. I’m glad it’s been exposed. But that weird yelling thing at the end was too much.

[imbluestreak23]

It's hilarious (not in a good way) just how many low-life-scumbags there are in this "hobby".

I genuinely can't think of anything else like it, where there is such a concentration of thieving corrupt criminals than sportscards / pokemon.

Look at the state of this whole situation. A crappy selling platform having packs opened by "youtube celebs" most of which are completely and utterly clueless. This hobby since 2018 has been on a rollercoaster to the gutter and is nothing but bulls hit, thieves and fame whores.

Not wrong

[imbluestreak23]

I once worked with and dealt with future medical professionals.

Full of scumbags, cheaters and liars. A couple killers too.

Thats just human nature.

Also not wrong

[zworykin]

Why does he yell like that at the end. I’m glad it’s been exposed. But that weird yelling thing at the end was too much.

Sports Card Radio? That's a big part of their schtick. They're usually pretty tough to stomach. Spot-on in this video, though, until they get into the personal vendetta stuff as you saw.

[RogerGodahell]

Why does he yell like that at the end. I’m glad it’s been exposed. But that weird yelling thing at the end was too much.

Because he's got some screws loose and probably forgot to take his meds. He has a sports card channel but evidently hates sports cards. He tells his viewers to invest in Pearl Jam posters and Rolex watches. Some of his videos are informative but he's pretty cringe worthy other times as well.

[ShoutFan2020]

speaking of unopened 86 fleer wax, what ever became of the 'Baseball Card Kid' from the '90s who did high volume on that? does chain-of-custody documentation make a 'Kid'-authenticated box carry a premium?

Mark Murphy. Lost most of his inventory in a warehouse fire.

[auburn35]

They pulled three. A 5, 5, and 6. And everyone was crying how ridiculous was to grade these pack fresh examples so low.

BBCE will say the box was resealed. Too bad these dumb dumb with whatnot didn’t catch it live.

Not that it makes much difference (resealed box) but the grades were actually 7, 7, 6 and a stained 8 sticker.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZ5727ZX0AAPzsG?format=jpg&name=small

[Giroux]

I once worked with and dealt with future medical professionals.



Full of scumbags, cheaters and liars. A couple killers too.



Thats just human nature.Correct, they are everywhere

[KhalDrogo]

Not that it makes much difference (resealed box) but the grades were actually 7, 7, 6 and a stained 8 sticker.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZ5727ZX0AAPzsG?format=jpg&name=small
Thanks. Nice of the scammer to slip in a couple of near mint copies!

[Grizzkid12]

I once worked with and dealt with future medical professionals.

Full of scumbags, cheaters and liars. A couple killers too.

Thats just human nature.

Any chance there was someone who went by the name "Khal" or "Drogo" in this group?

[JAMSC]

Funny thing is if the scammer had just been smarter about ordering the cards properly, no one would have ever known.

I remember Simmons saying in an interview within the last year that something seemed fishy about all of the sealed 86 Fleer surfacing. Wouldn’t be surprised at all if a good portion of vintage “sealed” wax is fraudulent. Definitely wouldn’t trust putting significant money into it.

[badkarma318]

Wait until you find out about Danny Duped at BBCE admitting to switching out multiple packs in an "authenticated" box of 86-87 Fleer . . .

[gododgersfan]

There's a good chance that we have more of these bogus 1986 Fleer Basketball boxes sitting in someone's collection with the BBCE wrap on it.

[KhalDrogo]

Any chance there was someone who went by the name "Khal" or "Drogo" in this group?
Living rent free still!

[CanadianKid]

Is it just me or how is it someone can go through the process of faking that box yet not paying attention to card sequence issues or alphabetical obviousness.

That is a special kind of stupid or lazy and if so, arrogant.

[mindcycle]

Can you remember a time in the hobby that wasn't full of scammers?

Nope, lol

I just feel with the crazy prices the boom produced we’re going to see a lot more scams show up in the high end and super high end sector. 10 years ago it was mostly hobby nerds buying stuff like that who were very knowledgeable (for the most part). Now it’s guys like Drake and Logan Paul buying it.

Lots of money plus lots of inexperience is a scammers dream.

[Collector only]

[QUOTE=YayNJ;18358315]It's hilarious (not in a good way) just how many low-life-scumbags there are in this "hobby".

I genuinely can't think of anything else like it, where there is such a concentration of thieving corrupt criminals than sportscards / pokemon.


I think you’d find it in any collectible market (I mean hobbies)
Art, coins, comics, cars, antiques, nautical, firearms, books, video games, wine/booze…..did I miss any?

[The_Reverend]

The worse thing is the influencers could have added credibility to themselves as soon as they noticed the sequencing was off. You know they knew something was off when they opened the packs. You could see it in their face. Instead of the. Getting ahead of this, their reputation will be negatively impacted. What a joke. As bad as people pushing fake RPA for NT this year.

[Archangel1775]

The unopened case a few years ago came from the Larry Fritsch collection. It may as well came from Fleer itself. That was a steal. Im speculating but I do believe that they have more of them. Larry was a wise man and if anyone bought the clearance cases from Fleer,’it was him. Again, speculation but my take.

[dunkindutchmen]

The worse thing is the influencers could have added credibility to themselves as soon as they noticed the sequencing was off. You know they knew something was off when they opened the packs. You could see it in their face. Instead of the. Getting ahead of this, their reputation will be negatively impacted. What a joke. As bad as people pushing fake RPA for NT this year.

I like how Packman and Cardcollector 2 were oblivious. "oh wow another Johnson..... and another one..... what are the odds?" Derrrrrrr

[HeyRelaxGuy]

It's hilarious (not in a good way) just how many low-life-scumbags there are in this "hobby".

I genuinely can't think of anything else like it, where there is such a concentration of thieving corrupt criminals than sportscards / pokemon.

Look at the state of this whole situation. A crappy selling platform having packs opened by "youtube celebs" most of which are completely and utterly clueless. This hobby since 2018 has been on a rollercoaster to the gutter and is nothing but bulls hit, thieves and fame whores.

Naw, this all started in the 1980s when boomers started going crazy with baseball cards.

[seanbros55]

It’s easy to authenticate boxes when you live IN A VAN, DOWN BY THE RIVER!

[ninjacookies]

https://www.mbadiamond.com/images/Triple-Plak-Card.png

Imagine paying a premium for a sealed box some dude deemed sealed.




Pretty soon clecters gonna go on the iron lung waiting on the 6 month turnaround for authenticated oxygen.

The cuckathon continues.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CostlySmallLacewing-size_restricted.gif

[Archangel1775]

Seriously though, what are they alternatives? The problem is that scammers are getting better. 1986 Fleer basketball is a BBCE specialty. I'd only trust buying them from Fritsch, BBCE and Reed from DA Card World. Three to four Jordan 57's is what you're supposed to get. Also 3 stickers of each player from what I recall. Were the others not grade worthy?

Apparently scammers know how to fake the factory seal and it intricacies on 1986 Fleer wax packs. That's not good.

[discodanman45]

I just don't get sealed wax. Tuned into Jabs opening a $6000 box of 1977 Topps. Within an hour, that sealed box turned into about $100 of card value.

[IronCladLou]

I like how Packman and Cardcollector 2 were oblivious. "oh wow another Johnson..... and another one..... what are the odds?" Derrrrrrr

Selectively oblivious?

Can't speak out and become the industry pariah

[Woodsy074]

Is there a video of the start of the break anywhere? Would love to see them showing and breaking the wrap. Quick google search isn’t really yielding anything,

[KhalDrogo]

Is there a video of the start of the break anywhere? Would love to see them showing and breaking the wrap. Quick google search isn’t really yielding anything,
You don’t need it. The BBCE wrap was fine.

This was a box that Steve Hart authenticated for one of his friends. These morons even did a video on it. Two of the 36 packs were bad. One was resealed. One had a flap open with an MJ sticker on the back. They say the MJ sticker pack couldn’t have been tampered with because no way anybody would leave an MJ sticker in there (they would leave a low grade example if they were scamming you, can’t have a box with 0 MJ stickers). Steve replaces the two packs with two good packs. The owner later opened one of the packs, and shocker, the cards were out of order.

Box gets sold through Goldin for $168k. Friend asks Steve what needs to be disclosed given the swapped packs. Steve says nothing, because everyone knows the terminology in his authentication letter means that the 36 packs are not original to that box (does everyone really know that?). Box gets opened by whatnot, and here we are.

BBCE’s credibility is gone IMO. It was one thing to get lazy/greedy and authenticate that Pokemon case. It’s another to authenticate a bad box of 1986 Fleer for a friend. Have to wonder how many bad boxes he’s authenticated for friends over the years.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vL33mtprMZY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xJlbgJ7IqeM

[Woodsy074]

You don’t need it. The BBCE wrap was fine.

This was a box that Steve Hart authenticated for one of his friends. These morons even did a video on it. Two of the 36 packs were bad. One was resealed. One had a flap open with an MJ sticker on the back. They say the MJ sticker pack couldn’t have been tampered with because no way anybody would leave an MJ sticker in there (they would leave a low grade example if they were scamming you, can’t have a box with 0 MJ stickers). Steve replaces the two packs with two good packs. The owner later opened one of the packs, and shocker, the cards were out of order.

Box gets sold through Goldin for $168k. Friend asks Steve what needs to be disclosed given the swapped packs. Steve says nothing, because everyone knows the terminology in his authentication letter means that the 36 packs are not original to that box (does everyone really know that?). Box gets opened by whatnot, and here we are.

BBCE’s credibility is gone IMO. It was one thing to get lazy/greedy and authenticate that Pokemon case. It’s another to authenticate a bad box of 1986 Fleer for a friend. Have to wonder how many bad boxes he’s authenticated for friends over the years.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vL33mtprMZY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xJlbgJ7IqeM

Yeah I saw the original video that Steve did with the guy on authenticating his 86 Fleer box. I just want to form my own opinion on this situation first without believing talking heads (which is very hard to do in todays day and age). If they didn't do Breaker 101 and show everyone clearly the box being opened, then you can't absolve Whatnot of this either. They have a pretty big incentive to search the box and swapping out any high grade card examples while looking like a hero by still giving away a six figure box.

[SpartanWarrior]

I'm not sure what is more hilarious.

The fact that not one of the "influencers" had a clue? Or the fact that there are people that seemed shocked and surprised that Steve Hart hasn't a clue?

Come on folks. This hobby has been in the gutter since the 1980's. Rob Lifson stealing cards from the NY Public Library. Bill Mastro trimming and shill bidding. Doug Allen shill bidding. Gary Moser master trimmer (along with about 10 other guys). Mike Baker keeping cards when GAI went under. Mike Baker keeping cards when Global Authority went under. Dave Forman (owner of SGC) having his own cards graded and his brother shilling his cards in Mastro Auctions. PSA dealers getting grade bumps. Those are the good old days!

Now we have Steve Hart wrapping anything that comes with payments. PSA grading tons of trimmed cards. CC2 running fake PSA group submission business. Influencers pumping whatever they are told to pump and receiving "sweet" free stuff for their troubles. Marx Cards eating for everyone and breakers just generally screwing everyone. Fake comps, Fake sales, tons more shill bidding.

And the sheep just keep on handing their money over.

I'm waiting for the first vault company to go BK. That is when the *&*% will really hit the fan. Bet Mike Baker will be there to scoop up some of those cards too! Even put a few stickers on them on the way out the door!

[Davis]

I’m glad this is being brought to light. I watched the video the screaming blez guy open his pack and knew the sequence of the cards was all messed up. I tried to say something but his screaming break boi followers couldn’t believe someone would reseal a jordan.

For the sequencing, look at an uncut sheet of 86 fleer and watch some legit breaks. It’s easy to see how the sequence works and when it will “jump” to a new alphabetical row because it just moves to a different 11-card row on the sheet.

[SupermanBrandon]

You know it’s bad when Kenny G looks like the lesser of the scum in all of this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chris P]

I like how Packman and Cardcollector 2 were oblivious. "oh wow another Johnson..... and another one..... what are the odds?" Derrrrrrr

And in the very last pack Packman opens he pulls doubles of 3 players (brad davis adrian dantley and purvis short)....i'm not a fleer 86-87 expert at all but getting doubles of 3 players PLUS the last name thing in the same pack wouldn't make you think something was up!?

[jmsodpc]

https://youtube.com/shorts/tqW4LnuRsz0?feature=share

[rustywest]

LoL "Influencers"

If you follow an "influencer" in any sphere you need to down a 6 pack and then immediately play frogger on the busiest highway.

Pretty much anybody who knows anything about the basketball hobby knows there is a sequence but just look at these fools with their Johnsons in hand.

[SupermanBrandon]

Reminder: CardCollector2 lost 6 figures (and his clients cards for a while) because he was working directly with a con-artist last year. He's not the brightest "influencer" on the planet.

[seanbros55]

If you allow yourself to be influenced by an”influencer” than you get exactly what you deserve.

[Archangel1775]

Reminder: CardCollector2 lost 6 figures (and his clients cards for a while) because he was working directly with a con-artist last year. He's not the brightest "influencer" on the planet.

If you allow yourself to be influenced by an”influencer” than you get exactly what you deserve.

Actually, CC2 is great for the growth of the hobby. A new generation of collectors watch his videos and what he does. All I've seen him do is promote the hobby and particularly football. His trade nights at his shop is an example what every shop should be doing if we want the hobby to survive. You can see the positiveness he brings at the card shows he attends. The plus is that I don't see him give spiels about what to InVeSt NOW! in.

[SupermanBrandon]

Actually, CC2 is great for the growth of the hobby. A new generation of collectors watch his videos and what he does. All I've seen him do is promote the hobby and particularly football. His trade nights at his shop is an example what every shop should be doing if we want the hobby to survive. You can see the positiveness he brings at the card shows he attends. The plus is that I don't see him give spiels about what to InVeSt NOW! in.

Good for him! He must be a saint because he helps the kids. He trusts con-artists and acts oblivious during a break that was obviously flawed & rigged.

[rustywest]

What the hell, that whole 2 pack swap 'situation' and the box was still authenticated? Flush BBCE credibility down the toilet right there to join the dark depths with the growing list of prominent, but phony hobby players.

Sidenote, does old mate Steve have a tick or is he a serious coffee enthusiast?

[Archangel1775]

What the hell, that whole 2 pack swap 'situation' and the box was still authenticated? Flush BBCE credibility down the toilet right there to join the dark depths with the growing list of prominent, but phony hobby players.

Sidenote, does old mate Steve have a tick or is he a serious coffee enthusiast?

You do understand that wax boxes back then were not sealed from the factory and can contain packs from 36 different boxes, right?

[SHoCKBiZZLE]

Good for him! He must be a saint because he helps the kids. He trusts con-artists and acts oblivious during a break that was obviously flawed & rigged.
Correct me if I am wrong, but he trusted someone, got burned, and made it right - correct?

Now, he SHOULD have made it right, so he doesnt get brownie points for that, but Ill be dammed if ive never been duped by anyone in life. And I read this person had a $1 million debt with PSA, and CC2 accounted for 120k of that - so obviously a lot of other people trusted this person too. Not sure how that points to anything negative on the guy (cc2) unless I have info wrong here.

[mc1]

You do understand that wax boxes back then were not sealed from the factory and can contain packs from 36 different boxes, right?

That should be noted on the box. Maybe it was, not sure.

Especially if they replaced two packs. Might be a good idea to provide that info.

[Archangel1775]

Good for him! He must be a saint because he helps the kids. He trusts con-artists and acts oblivious during a break that was obviously flawed & rigged.

First, from what I gather, there wasn't a blinking light that stated that grading business were made of con artists. There wasn't any nefarious intent by CC2. Mistakes happen and he paid for it. If you can't see passed the error in business judgement, that's fine, I believe he'll survive your opinion. As for the break, was he the one that ran the break for Whatnot? Does he have previous experience with 1986 Fleer basketball unopened? You seem pretty upset at him, I hope you make it through this.

[rustywest]

You do understand that wax boxes back then were not sealed from the factory and can contain packs from 36 different boxes, right?

Yes.

My interpretation of an authentic box is all the packs contained are the same as those which left factory. The moment packs are switched, that's it. Its my interpretation. Alot of people will agree with me and I wouldn't touch a box with packs being fiddled in and out with. It shouldn't have been authenticated

[Archangel1775]

That should be noted on the box. Maybe it was, not sure.

Especially if they replaced two packs. Might be a good idea to provide that info.

The wax boxes are sequenced a certain way. At least an X-amount of Jordans and X-amount of stickers, something like 3 complete sets. They would have to meet that criteria the last I checked. Again, it's an 80s wax box. This is why there is a premium for FASC in general.

[SupermanBrandon]

Correct me if I am wrong, but he trusted someone, got burned, and made it right - correct?

Now, he SHOULD have made it right, so he doesnt get brownie points for that, but Ill be dammed if ive never been duped by anyone in life. And I read this person had a $1 million debt with PSA, and CC2 accounted for 120k of that - so obviously a lot of other people trusted this person too. Not sure how that points to anything negative on the guy (cc2) unless I have info wrong here.

Did he tell his customers that he was subbing and trusting their cards w/ someone else? NO (so he lied to his customers)

Did he wait way to long to get to the bottom of it (while trying to hide it at first)? YES

Does he get "brownie points" for coughing up his own money? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Just because people do good things for the kids or do free giveaways doesn't make them immune. He's either completely clueless (which has its own issues) or he knows exactly what he's doing while smiling and bringing "hobby positivity" and down playing the "haters".

[Archangel1775]

Yes.

My interpretation of an authentic box is all the packs contained are the same as those which left factory. The moment packs are switched, that's it. Its my interpretation. Alot of people will agree with me and I wouldn't touch a box with packs being fiddled in and out with. It shouldn't have been authenticated

You're talking about modern boxes and cases. That is why there is a premium for unopened cases and boxes FASC in general. 1986 Fleer basketball is a different beast. First, there is only one known sealed case. Finally, due to sequencing, X amount of stickers and MJ's are supposed to be in the box. As long as they meet that criteria, I dont see an issue.

[SupermanBrandon]

First, from what I gather, there wasn't a blinking light that stated that grading business were made of con artists. There wasn't any nefarious intent by CC2. Mistakes happen and he paid for it. If you can't see passed the error in business judgement, that's fine, I believe he'll survive your opinion. As for the break, was he the one that ran the break for Whatnot? Does he have previous experience with 1986 Fleer basketball unopened? You seem pretty upset at him, I hope you make it through this.

I have the ability to see past the smiles and free giveaways. Im not looking for his approval or friendship.

[KhalDrogo]

That should be noted on the box. Maybe it was, not sure.

Especially if they replaced two packs. Might be a good idea to provide that info.
It wasn’t. And Steve’s reasoning for not including that information is that everyone knows what his terminology means on his authentication forms. That this was not a box with the 36 original packs.

Steve doesn’t feel that information like taking two resealed packs out of a box and replacing them is necessary to share with buyers. Wonder why not.

[SupermanBrandon]

The fact that ANYONE thinks you can just replace 2 packs or make a box out of random packs is okay...is major problem and completely unacceptable. Not to mention the packs being resealed.

[KhalDrogo]

You're talking about modern boxes and cases. That is why there is a premium for unopened cases and boxes FASC in general. 1986 Fleer basketball is a different beast. First, there is only one known sealed case. Finally, due to sequencing, X amount of stickers and MJ's are supposed to be in the box. As long as they meet that criteria, I dont see an issue.
You don’t see the issue even after this debacle?

Open a legit box. Remove the MJs. Replace with mid-grade MJs. Reseal the packs and box. Scam complete.

[mc1]

It wasn’t. And Steve’s reasoning for not including that information is that everyone knows what his terminology means on his authentication forms. That this was not a box with the 36 original packs.

Steve doesn’t feel that information like taking two resealed packs out of a box and replacing them is necessary to share with buyers. Wonder why not.

Ok. So he still had to inspect each pack and deem each of them as untampered and original. He caught 2 of 36. :doh:

[SupermanBrandon]

Ok. So he still had to inspect each pack and deem each of them as untampered and original. He caught 2 of 36. :doh:

:cry:

[KhalDrogo]

Ok. So he still had to inspect each pack and deem each of them as untampered and original. He caught 2 of 36. :doh:
That’s right. He’s the “expert” but I’d be pretty suspicious of the rest of the box if I caught two bad packs. I might question if I just missed the evidence of resealing in the rest.

[mindcycle]

Pretty much anybody who knows anything about the basketball hobby knows there is a sequence but just look at these fools with their Johnsons in hand.

:cry::cry:

[matt roberson]

The unopened case a few years ago came from the Larry Fritsch collection. It may as well came from Fleer itself. That was a steal. Im speculating but I do believe that they have more of them. Larry was a wise man and if anyone bought the clearance cases from Fleer,’it was him. Again, speculation but my take.

Im pretty sure the local news paper article quoted him as saying it was his only one..... but he could be lying to protect Pricing or even his and his families well being due to the incredible value of a sealed case. I would think at minimum he probably still has some loose boxes stashed somewhere.

LoL "Influencers"

If you follow an "influencer" in any sphere you need to down a 6 pack and then immediately play frogger on the busiest highway.

Pretty much anybody who knows anything about the basketball hobby knows there is a sequence but just look at these fools with their Johnsons in hand.

So that's what happened to Haskins, now it makes sense.

That’s right. He’s the “expert” but I’d be pretty suspicious of the rest of the box if I caught two bad packs. I might question if I just missed the evidence of resealing in the rest.

Apparently expert is a loose term in this hobby. Trust no one in this hobby, only believe to be true what you witness first hand.

[auburn35]

That’s right. He’s the “expert” but I’d be pretty suspicious of the rest of the box if I caught two bad packs. I might question if I just missed the evidence of resealing in the rest.

Yeah, back when Rattle Pokemon covered this 86/87 Fleer box (https://youtu.be/zQzf7SYWBQc?t=506), it was interesting to hear BBCE explain the decision to swap out the packs and recreate a complete box. Obviously would have been better had Steve just refused to authenticate this box of resealed packs.

Similar to when grading companies run into submissions with trimmed/altered cards, it should be standard procedure to at least increase the inspection of the other items and with multiple occurrences, just stop grading the submission.

[SHoCKBiZZLE]

Did he tell his customers that he was subbing and trusting their cards w/ someone else? NO (so he lied to his customers)

Did he wait way to long to get to the bottom of it (while trying to hide it at first)? YES

Does he get "brownie points" for coughing up his own money? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Just because people do good things for the kids or do free giveaways doesn't make them immune. He's either completely clueless (which has its own issues) or he knows exactly what he's doing while smiling and bringing "hobby positivity" and down playing the "haters".
Soooooo basically what youre saying is he got screwed over and made it right. Got it.

[grade]

What next? Swapping out cards from slabs ok? Swapping GU patches as ok? Swapping 1 card out of packs ok ?

[gomiamigo]

Soooooo basically what youre saying is he got screwed over and made it right. Got it.

It pretty clearly obvious he was lying to his customers. Not OK.

Defending that seems....odd.

[auburn35]

The videos have been discussed but here's some direct links.
Similar to the goofs who documented the authentication of the fake Pokemon case, there's several interesting videos recapping the authentication of this 86/87 Fleer box.

Really good photos of the box and packs, prior to shipping off to BBCE
UsdZ008MW-Q

Breakdown of the pack swaps and authentication
I6nqUEkHEPk

History of BBCE
0qDceU7-gos

[shaner1]

[QUOTE=YayNJ;18358315]It's hilarious (not in a good way) just how many low-life-scumbags there are in this "hobby".

I genuinely can't think of anything else like it, where there is such a concentration of thieving corrupt criminals than sportscards / pokemon.


I think you’d find it in any collectible market (I mean hobbies)
Art, coins, comics, cars, antiques, nautical, firearms, books, video games, wine/booze…..did I miss any?

Definitely in the Coin Collecting world... A Local Coin dealer here in FL was busted for fraud a few years ago...scamming customers out of about $300K .
One of the customers was a friend of mine, who lost a $75K rare gold coin to the dealer.

The dealer recommended grading the coin, and it graded very, very high. Then the dealer broke it out of the case, and then graded it with with another company...to try and disguise it.

Ultimately FBI was involved, and I hear the coin was found....in the collection of Ken Kendrick, the owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks.


https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/crime/2017/07/20/melbourne-coin-dealer-charged-300-k-worth-fraud/495614001/

[losangelesfan]

I'm not sure what is more hilarious.

The fact that not one of the "influencers" had a clue? Or the fact that there are people that seemed shocked and surprised that Steve Hart hasn't a clue?

Come on folks. This hobby has been in the gutter since the 1980's. Rob Lifson stealing cards from the NY Public Library. Bill Mastro trimming and shill bidding. Doug Allen shill bidding. Gary Moser master trimmer (along with about 10 other guys). Mike Baker keeping cards when GAI went under. Mike Baker keeping cards when Global Authority went under. Dave Forman (owner of SGC) having his own cards graded and his brother shilling his cards in Mastro Auctions. PSA dealers getting grade bumps. Those are the good old days!

Now we have Steve Hart wrapping anything that comes with payments. PSA grading tons of trimmed cards. CC2 running fake PSA group submission business. Influencers pumping whatever they are told to pump and receiving "sweet" free stuff for their troubles. Marx Cards eating for everyone and breakers just generally screwing everyone. Fake comps, Fake sales, tons more shill bidding.

And the sheep just keep on handing their money over.

I'm waiting for the first vault company to go BK. That is when the *&*% will really hit the fan. Bet Mike Baker will be there to scoop up some of those cards too! Even put a few stickers on them on the way out the door!

Wow, crazy to read this stuff. How about Don West? Or he was just a salesman?

[Spfld Ponies]

I would not feel great about sitting on "sealed" wax of any high value product right now.

Literally moved all my opened packs this morning. Never will I trust Steve Hart again... BBCE is obviously a SCAM. Two+ huge, high profile errors recently. PSA needs to cut ties!!

[Spfld Ponies]

I'm not sure what is more hilarious.

The fact that not one of the "influencers" had a clue? Or the fact that there are people that seemed shocked and surprised that Steve Hart hasn't a clue?

Come on folks. This hobby has been in the gutter since the 1980's. Rob Lifson stealing cards from the NY Public Library. Bill Mastro trimming and shill bidding. Doug Allen shill bidding. Gary Moser master trimmer (along with about 10 other guys). Mike Baker keeping cards when GAI went under. Mike Baker keeping cards when Global Authority went under. Dave Forman (owner of SGC) having his own cards graded and his brother shilling his cards in Mastro Auctions. PSA dealers getting grade bumps. Those are the good old days!

Now we have Steve Hart wrapping anything that comes with payments. PSA grading tons of trimmed cards. CC2 running fake PSA group submission business. Influencers pumping whatever they are told to pump and receiving "sweet" free stuff for their troubles. Marx Cards eating for everyone and breakers just generally screwing everyone. Fake comps, Fake sales, tons more shill bidding.

And the sheep just keep on handing their money over.

I'm waiting for the first vault company to go BK. That is when the *&*% will really hit the fan. Bet Mike Baker will be there to scoop up some of those cards too! Even put a few stickers on them on the way out the door!
I'm not thrilled reading your response as it details many duplicitous scams... but you are RIGHT on each one!! The hobby needs to police itself better, there needs to be a way to bring these thieves to justice.

[Archangel1775]

The fact that ANYONE thinks you can just replace 2 packs or make a box out of random packs is okay...is major problem and completely unacceptable. Not to mention the packs being resealed.

I see you don't buy older wax boxes. Your logic is flawed. They aren't factory sealed. The only exception were late eighties/early nineties Costco/Price Club retail wax boxes. That is why there is a premium on FASC boxes.

[SupermanBrandon]

Soooooo basically what youre saying is he got screwed over and made it right. Got it.

Defending him while knowing he was lying to his customers from the start and only paid the money because he was afraid of lawsuits...is really odd! But you do you.

[Archangel1775]

You don’t see the issue even after this debacle?

Open a legit box. Remove the MJs. Replace with mid-grade MJs. Reseal the packs and box. Scam complete.

We're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about older wax boxes in general. They weren't factory sealed. It's practically impossible to determine if all wax packs are original to the box. All you can do is base that on pack condition and consistent wrapping. Otherwise, you're just taking the word of whomever you are buying them from.

The advantage of 1986 Fleer Basketball is sequencing. Every box is going to have at least 3 Jordan 57's and 3 sticker sets. No less. That's 33 packs with the 11-card sticker checklist. The remaining 3 packs could contain anything. From another Jordan 57 to another Jordan sticker.

In general, we've always discussed, on these very forums, that counterfeit cards will get better over time simply due to technology. I wonder how much this is more about scammers improving their wax reseal technology than anything else. Believing someone took an iron to the back of these wax packs today as they did in the 80's is foolish. We've already seen fake wrapped boxes in 2012 Prizm and National Treasures. It's only going to get worse.

[Archangel1775]

Literally moved all my opened packs this morning. Never will I trust Steve Hart again... BBCE is obviously a SCAM. Two+ huge, high profile errors recently. PSA needs to cut ties!!

What do opened packs have to do with BBCE? Also, what alternative is there? I only know of a handful of people that may have the experience to what BBCE does. They haven't started their own business.

[peterose4hof]

The box only contained one Jordan sticker.

So presumably the two packs that were swapped out replaced two Jordan sticker packs.

[Archangel1775]

The box only contained one Jordan sticker.

So presumably the two packs that were swapped out replaced two Jordan sticker packs.

Did BBCE release a statement yet? That's surprising if true. I can't imagine Steve wrapping a box without 3 Jordan stickers. Was the box opened on video?(Checking now)

Edit: the two packs replaced were 1 MJ sticker and 1 Kareem sticker

Apparently a letter from BBCE was paired with the box stating it contained only 1 MJ sticker. Strange he still did it.

[SHoCKBiZZLE]

It pretty clearly obvious he was lying to his customers. Not OK.

Defending that seems....odd.

Congrats? Im sure it does seem odd to you. From what I understand he just didnt publicaly state he was using a third party? Is this correct? As a consumer I dont see that being too big an issue at all. As long as I get my graded card back. Maybe you see it as an evil plot? I just dont see the situation as a huge negative on him. Had he threw his hands up and closed up shop and said "sorry guys, tough luck" - sure. But that didnt happen.

And I dont even watch his stuff or care one way or another about the man.

[hermanotarjeta]

Couldn’t whatnot easily reseal the box themselves after removing the desired cards and replacing them with bad cards and then pretend to open the BBCE authenticated box on camera just to disrepute BBCE?

[whitmm]

The box only contained one Jordan sticker.

So presumably the two packs that were swapped out replaced two Jordan sticker packs.

The one video states that one of pack had a Jordan sticker, one that the seal was broken but Steve said it was only lifted back far enough to see the Jordan sticker. The other had an Abdul-Jabber sticker

[SHoCKBiZZLE]

Defending him while knowing he was lying to his customers from the start and only paid the money because he was afraid of lawsuits...is really odd! But you do you.

Afraid of lawsuits? lol. All that man would have had to do would be file bankruptcy, close his business and wash his hands of it all. Which he COULD have done. And none of those customers would have gotten a dime, or their cards (unless they worked something out with PSA)

[SupermanBrandon]

Afraid of lawsuits? lol. All that man would have had to do would be file bankruptcy, close his business and wash his hands of it all. Which he COULD have done. And none of those customers would have gotten a dime, or their cards (unless they worked something out with PSA)

Just to be clear...you're okay with him lying to his customers while handling both their money and their cards?

[SHoCKBiZZLE]

Just to be clear...you're okay with him lying to his customers while handling both their money and their cards?

Clarify the lying for me. From what I gather he accepted PSA submissions and used a third party to get them done. Which was a faster and cheaper option for his customers, because he was using someone with a direct link to PSA. He just didnt publicize that? And to be honest that is quite common.

Did he tell customer he was hand delivering them to PSA himself? If so, sure thats a lie, and not cool. But I havent seen that stated anywhere.

[KhalDrogo]

We're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about older wax boxes in general. They weren't factory sealed. It's practically impossible to determine if all wax packs are original to the box. All you can do is base that on pack condition and consistent wrapping. Otherwise, you're just taking the word of whomever you are buying them from.

The advantage of 1986 Fleer Basketball is sequencing. Every box is going to have at least 3 Jordan 57's and 3 sticker sets. No less. That's 33 packs with the 11-card sticker checklist. The remaining 3 packs could contain anything. From another Jordan 57 to another Jordan sticker.

In general, we've always discussed, on these very forums, that counterfeit cards will get better over time simply due to technology. I wonder how much this is more about scammers improving their wax reseal technology than anything else. Believing someone took an iron to the back of these wax packs today as they did in the 80's is foolish. We've already seen fake wrapped boxes in 2012 Prizm and National Treasures. It's only going to get worse.
You stated you don’t see an issue as long as the box meets the criteria you outlined above. Having the appropriate number of each card in the proper order does not exclude the box from being sealed. The intelligent scammer would reseal a box with all the right cards, in the right order, but swap out the big names for lesser to mid-grade conditioned cards.

[auburn35]

Did BBCE release a statement yet? That's surprising if true. I can't imagine Steve wrapping a box without 3 Jordan stickers. Was the box opened on video?(Checking now)

Edit: the two packs replaced were 1 MJ sticker and 1 Hakeem sticker

Apparently a letter from BBCE was paired with the box stating it contained only 1 MJ sticker. Strange he still did it.

Watching the videos it was interesting (not surprising) to see the Goldin sale (https://goldin.co/item/1986-87-fleer-basketball-unopened-wax-box-hobby-box-possible-michael-juywso) occur without the BBCE letter, documenting the contents. This letter wouldn't have benefited the auction price.

https://tripledoublesportscards.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/20211122_152327_resized-2-1.jpg

[SupermanBrandon]

Watching the videos it was interesting (not surprising) to see the Goldin sale (https://tripledoublesportscards.com/shop/1986-87-fleer-basketball-wax-box-36-packs-bbce-authenticated-rookies-jordan-barkley-olajuwon-ewing-wilkins-thomas-worthy-drexler-dozens-more/) occur without the BBCE letter, documenting the contents. This letter wouldn't have benefited the auction.

When Kenny G is the least scummy person in all of this...you know there's a problem.

[MJGOAT23]

Did BBCE release a statement yet? That's surprising if true. I can't imagine Steve wrapping a box without 3 Jordan stickers. Was the box opened on video?(Checking now)

Edit: the two packs replaced were 1 MJ sticker and 1 Hakeem sticker

Apparently a letter from BBCE was paired with the box stating it contained only 1 MJ sticker. Strange he still did it.

So yes, normally the Frankenboxes come with a letter that says it contains 36 unopened, untampered packs, but not the exact 36 original packs as issued by Fleer to further explain the wwording on the back of the box "36 pack box".

Anyway, where did the two replacement packs come from? BBCE's stash? Shouldnt there have been at least 2 legit packs in the break ? Yet there wasnt, right? I didnt watch the entire break video. It is too nauseating.

[GOATcards]

it is blatantly easy to unseal and reseal wax, why would anyone go anywhere near that kind of product without ironclad chain of custody?

[KhalDrogo]

Did BBCE release a statement yet? That's surprising if true. I can't imagine Steve wrapping a box without 3 Jordan stickers. Was the box opened on video?(Checking now)

Edit: the two packs replaced were 1 MJ sticker and 1 Hakeem sticker

Apparently a letter from BBCE was paired with the box stating it contained only 1 MJ sticker. Strange he still did it.
It’s not strange. He authenticated it for a friend. Or does Steve do YouTube videos with all his customers?

[GOATcards]

an Abdul-Jabber sticker

you mean Lew Alcinder?

[mc1]

Couldn’t whatnot easily reseal the box themselves after removing the desired cards and replacing them with bad cards and then pretend to open the BBCE authenticated box on camera just to disrepute BBCE?

Occam’s razor

[GOATcards]

You stated you don’t see an issue as long as the box meets the criteria you outlined above. Having the appropriate number of each card in the proper order does not exclude the box from being sealed. The intelligent scammer would reseal a box with all the right cards, in the right order, but swap out the big names for lesser to mid-grade conditioned cards.

usually a lower-conditioned card right out of the pack is going to be due (on a set like this especially) to poor centering. A sophisticated collector and opener of genuine 86F material won't be able to detect patterns in centering of cards within a pack, whether the color on the jersey and register in "Chicago" match, what kinds of 57s have certain red print dots in the blue border, which ones tend to have a bit of white print marking in the nameplate area, the differences in crispness in the "Fleer premier" logo, the exact (or not) aligning of the black trimline to line up with the yellow trim, the ones with the fish-eye right to the left of MJ's face . . . (I'unno, should I join any authentication team that would have me? lol)

[JAMSC]

Anyway, where did the two replacement packs come from? BBCE's stash? Shouldnt there have been at least 2 legit packs in the break ? Yet there wasnt, right? I didnt watch the entire break video. It is too nauseating.


This is the most important question BBCE needs to answer. They replaced those two packs with two other packs and somehow they also had the same error in ordering? That’s pretty much the smoking gun that BBCE was in on it. It’s at the point that I think having anything BBCE authenticated should be viewed as negatively impacting the value of a product.

[discodanman45]

BBCE is doing the collecting world a favor. Get the PSA 9 Jordans out of the packs and seal up the PSA 6 Jordan's.

[ken161]

I'm not surprised the box was tampered with. There's too much incentive for the crooks. In some of these scams, they can make more than an average American makes in three, five, or ten years. The crooks needn't worry about consequences either. Even if they found out who resealed these packs, the person will probably not face any financial liability, let alone hard jail time.

I just assume all big-ticket items in the hobby have been tampered with at some time. There's still plenty of "collector-grade" stuff out there that's fun to collect. People spending small fortunes on collectibles are encouraging the scammers to do their thing.

[overboosted]

Someone brought this up before. Did anyone see them rip the seal at the event. Another person chimed in that the seal was legit. BUT, did anyone see them rip the seal at the event? It sure would be easy to buy a BBCE box, display it, then when it's time to open the packs, put out a tampered box.


https://media.giphy.com/media/1xlplRrL5kjiftkNhC/giphy.gif

[SupermanBrandon]

This is the most important question BBCE needs to answer. They replaced those two packs with two other packs and somehow they also had the same error in ordering? That’s pretty much the smoking gun that BBCE was in on it. It’s at the point that I think having anything BBCE authenticated should be viewed as negatively impacting the value of a product.

That's where the hobby has surpassed the old gatekeepers. Previously, nobody would ever think about opening those boxes. So just say it's legit and nobody will ever know. Now its super sexy to open this stuff live on camera in front of thousands. The lights are being turned on. Both the old school scammers and todays...are all being pushed out into the light.

[Archangel1775]

You stated you don’t see an issue as long as the box meets the criteria you outlined above. Having the appropriate number of each card in the proper order does not exclude the box from being sealed. The intelligent scammer would reseal a box with all the right cards, in the right order, but swap out the big names for lesser to mid-grade conditioned cards.

You're still not tracking, I'm not talking about the box in this thread and I'm not talking about resealed,tampered packs. It's a general statement about what a box of 1986 Fleer basketball should contain directly from the factory.

Why you would believe anyone is ok with resealed packs except the scammer, is your issue, not mine. If anyone is spending any amount of money on a box, it's always a great idea to know what to look for in compromised packs.

[GOATcards]

so does this mean that the high-grade 57s have basically been mined by the scammers by now, so that should mean a slow in the population growth of high-graded 57s which means a renewed price pump for high-grade 57s soon enough, yes? :)!

[Archangel1775]

So yes, normally the Frankenboxes come with a letter that says it contains 36 unopened, untampered packs, but not the exact 36 original packs as issued by Fleer to further explain the wwording on the back of the box "36 pack box".

Anyway, where did the two replacement packs come from? BBCE's stash? Shouldnt there have been at least 2 legit packs in the break ? Yet there wasnt, right? I didnt watch the entire break video. It is too nauseating.

Honestly, I dont think very many have. Based on the opinions here, many of them seem not to know much about 1980's and older wax boxes. The videos in one of the posts state that the original owner of the rebuilt wax box purchased two PSA graded packs from BBCE to fill the holes of the resealed pack(Kareem sticker) and popped pack(Jordan Sticker).

As for any videos, I see two boxes opened at the National. Cardporn and the Whatnot box. There are HL's of MJ's being pulled but I dont know what box is what. I dont see any original opening of the box except for the Cardporn box. Apparently they do their homework though. If anyone has a link to the original Whatnot box wrap coming off, please link it.

[Archangel1775]

Someone brought this up before. Did anyone see them rip the seal at the event. Another person chimed in that the seal was legit. BUT, did anyone see them rip the seal at the event? It sure would be easy to buy a BBCE box, display it, then when it's time to open the packs, put out a tampered box.


I can't find anything on the original opening of the Whatnot box. Anyone got Twitter, IG or Whatnot to check?

At this point, Steve should record himself authenticating boxes of this caliber with both the front and back of each pack. He knows which packs contain an MJ and MJ sticker.

[cruiserdaddy7]

I can't find anything on the original opening of the Whatnot box. Anyone got Twitter, IG or Whatnot to check?

At this point, Steve should record himself authenticating boxes of this caliber with both the front and back of each pack. He knows which packs contain an MJ and MJ sticker.

The guy shouldn't even be trusted or in business. 2 high profile fails in short time.

[mc1]

Someone brought this up before. Did anyone see them rip the seal at the event. Another person chimed in that the seal was legit. BUT, did anyone see them rip the seal at the event? It sure would be easy to buy a BBCE box, display it, then when it's time to open the packs, put out a tampered box.


The two packs that were replaced were opened later and supposedly they had the same sequencing as the rest of the (tampered) packs. Would be an amazing coincidence if somehow WhatNot found the same source and replaced with tampered packs.

Out of all 36 packs were the two that Steve inserted more legit? Anyone have a complete breakdown of each pack? Would be nice.

[tconte]

Never mind. My bad. It is still there.

[Archangel1775]

The guy shouldn't even be trusted or in business. 2 high profile fails in short time.

The problem here is we can't find the video of the WhatNot BBCE box being opened. Hopefully there is one. Otherwise, saying it was the BBCE wrapped box is just as good as a random breaker unwrapping a box off camera and saying it's factory sealed. This could actually be a disaster for WhatNot if there isn't a video. Kinda sets the precedent for their application.

[Archangel1775]

https://tripledoublesportscards.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/20211122_152327_resized-2-1.jpg

Seriously, that's not on BBCE. That's on the seller. Strange he questions what's right and then doesn't include the letter in the auction. Maybe it was Goldin who didn't though. Thanks for posting this

To add, it's actually sad that people dont do their homework. Why not send BBCE an email and inquire about the serial number? I'm sure the letter would've been brought up in the correspondence.

[Collector only]

[QUOTE=Collector only;18358864]

Definitely in the Coin Collecting world... A Local Coin dealer here in FL was busted for fraud a few years ago...scamming customers out of about $300K .
One of the customers was a friend of mine, who lost a $75K rare gold coin to the dealer.

The dealer recommended grading the coin, and it graded very, very high. Then the dealer broke it out of the case, and then graded it with with another company...to try and disguise it.

Ultimately FBI was involved, and I hear the coin was found....in the collection of Ken Kendrick, the owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks.


https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/crime/2017/07/20/melbourne-coin-dealer-charged-300-k-worth-fraud/495614001/
————————————————————————————————————————
Interesting. Perhaps the coin was resting right next to the strip cut Gretzky T206 Wagner?
If interested in learning of the type of people in the Fine Art world, check out ‘The Last Leonardo’ by Ben Lewis. Many parallels to the sports card world, with bigger #’s.

Ultimately, the best part of this story so far is SCR’s WWE style promo at the end of one of the videos. Hilarious!

[jr24ai3]

The two packs that were replaced were opened later and supposedly they had the same sequencing as the rest of the (tampered) packs. Would be an amazing coincidence if somehow WhatNot found the same source and replaced with tampered packs.

Out of all 36 packs were the two that Steve inserted more legit? Anyone have a complete breakdown of each pack? Would be nice.


I watched a large part of the break. The first pack I noticed the sequence was bad. I do remember there being at least one pack that did have a good sequence.

[whitmm]

Seriously, that's not on BBCE. That's on the seller. Strange he questions what's right and then doesn't include the letter in the auction. Maybe it was Goldin who didn't though. Thanks for posting this

To add, it's actually sad that people dont do their homework. Why not send BBCE an email and inquire about the serial number? I'm sure the letter would've been brought up in the correspondence.

It's on BBCE for certifying that 34 of the 36 packs were good unopened/unsearched packs.

He stated in the video that the Jordan sticker pack that was replaced was pulled out looked like it was natural unsticking of the seal, but it looked like it was lifted up to see the sticker and was therefor a searched pack.

[KhalDrogo]

Seriously, that's not on BBCE. That's on the seller. Strange he questions what's right and then doesn't include the letter in the auction. Maybe it was Goldin who didn't though. Thanks for posting this

To add, it's actually sad that people dont do their homework. Why not send BBCE an email and inquire about the serial number? I'm sure the letter would've been brought up in the correspondence.
How do you know whatnot didn’t inquire before making the purchase?

[Archangel1775]

How do you know whatnot didn’t inquire before making the purchase?

Good point, they could even be bigger idiots.

[Archangel1775]

It's on BBCE for certifying that 34 of the 36 packs were good unopened/unsearched packs.

He stated in the video that the Jordan sticker pack that was replaced was pulled out looked like it was natural unsticking of the seal, but it looked like it was lifted up to see the sticker and was therefor a searched pack.

My comment is referring to why the letter wasn't included in the Goldin auction as it stated the sticker breakdown. Seeing that letter, I know that it's a "put together box" and I'm not paying a premium price for it. Additionally, I'm going to ensure that at least 3 Jordan 57's by sequence are in it by contacting BBCE. I watched the video though, thanks.

[mc1]

Good point, they could even be bigger idiots.

Theyre idiots for buying BBCE authenticated items. Thats for sure.

[KhalDrogo]

People will do anything to defend their BBCE collection!

[duron]

So Hart never had some magical methodology for authenticating boxes?

Thought magic was real.

[Archangel1775]

Theyre idiots for buying BBCE authenticated items. Thats for sure.

Is there a better alternative aside from one's own personal knowledge of what they are buying? The Larry Fritsch company I suppose. I know OPC baseball but he only does OPC that last I checked. The farmer guy Kurt that does FASC boxes. Otherwise, calling ALL people idiots for buying BBCE wrapped boxes is completely unreasonable. It's not like tampered boxes are only coming from them. But yeah, I'll be waiting on the fire sales for 50's, 60's and 70's unopened.

[mc1]

Youre the one that started throwing around insults.

[oldgoldy97]

So Hart never had some magical methodology for authenticating boxes?

Thought magic was real.

Just like grading. Sham show.

[Archangel1775]

So Hart never had some magical methodology for authenticating boxes?

Thought magic was real.

Weird take man. It's about knowledge in the details. It doesn't have to be from BBCE. Just know WTF you are looking at. People are just used to paying a premium for boxes from them. There is clearly added value from BBCE authenticating packs and boxes. Reputation goes a long way and if prices drop because enough people don't believe in the brand, I'm good with that. I like to open sh*t.

In this WhatNot case, there still isn't a video of the box being unwrapped that anyone can find. So there are a couple legit possibilities.

[mc1]

In this WhatNot case, there still isn't a video of the box being unwrapped that anyone can find. So there are a couple legit possibilities.

♫ What a fool believes, he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away ♫

[Archangel1775]

Youre the one that started throwing around insults.

I called the buyer of the WhatNot box an idiot for not doing their homework. If they DID do their homework and STILL bought that frankenstein box to promote their application they should be demoted or fired. If you're the host at the National (Ripping Wax) and didn't unwrap the BBCE box live on camera, that owner is also an idiot. I mean, come on, that's what you do for a living. Additionally, the host should've known the sequence was off and stopped immediately. Are you one of those two idiots? If not, don't take offense.

[mc1]

I called the buyer of the WhatNot box an idiot for not doing their homework. If they DID do their homework and STILL bought that frankenstein box to promote their application they should be demoted or fired. If you're the host at the National (Ripping Wax) and didn't unwrap the BBCE box live on camera, that owner is also an idiot. I mean, come on, that's what you do for a living. Additionally, the host should've known the sequence was off and stopped immediately. Are you one of those two idiots? If not, don't take offense.

Are you buddies with Steve Hart? Why do you keep defending him so much?

[duron]

Weird take man. It's about knowledge in the details. It doesn't have to be from BBCE. Just know WTF you are looking at. People are just used to paying a premium for boxes from them. There is clearly added value from BBCE authenticating packs and boxes. Reputation goes a long way and if prices drop because enough people don't believe in the brand, I'm good with that. I like to open sh*t.

In this WhatNot case, there still isn't a video of the box being unwrapped that anyone can find. So there are a couple legit possibilities.

Genuinely not seeing how it’s a weird take. For years BBCE has been vaunted as basically the sole authority for rewrapped boxes. I’m not talking about the premiums they fetch, since that’s as obvious as graded cards. I’m speaking more to what the actual methodology is that he claims to use. Would love to hear it but I’m pretty sure that’s never discussed.

You mention Fritsch as really the only other authority that doesn’t just specialize in specific brands. Maybe I just need to read up on the history of BBCE. Could be missing the secret sauce here.

There was also a certain Rattle video where he highlighted what Hart deemed rock solid attributes in determining the authenticity of the Pokemon stuff, meanwhile a relative layman knew it signified nothing.

Granted this is all a very small sample size, but I’m forced to think there are way more examples out there waiting to be revealed. Good on you for wanting to open more stuff if confidence wanes, especially given your knowledge. That only makes sense, but most aren’t educated enough and it seems reasonable at this point to give a bit less blind faith.

[Archangel1775]

Genuinely not seeing how it’s a weird take.

You stated it takes magic. I'm telling you it's takes knowledge of what you're buying.


I’m speaking more to what the actual methodology is that he claims to use. Would love to hear it but I’m pretty sure that’s never discussed.
Some of those details are actually discussed in one of the videos in this very thread. But there are numerous details that can be used to authenticate a wax pack. However, just as having the ability to determine fake late 90's basketball inserts isn't discussed widely, as it can be used as an advantage by fraudsters. I'm sure the same applies to wax packs from back then. There are a social media groups that have members with the knowledge to explain it.

You mention Fritsch as really the only other authority that doesn’t just specialize in specific brands. Maybe I just need to read up on the history of BBCE. Could be missing the secret sauce here.

Fritsch is not an authority per se, they just own a lot of unopened that came straight from the factories going back to the 70s. They are pretty secret on what they have in their inventory.

Reed from DACardWorld is another individual I haven't mentioned yet. He has tremendous knowledge on all things unopened. He just hasn't started a company wrapping boxes.

There was also a certain Rattle video where he highlighted what Hart deemed rock solid attributes in determining the authenticity of the Pokemon stuff, meanwhile a relative layman knew it signified nothing.

BBCE f*cked that up big time and rightfully so, effected his reputation. I don't believe he had ill intent though. For the other actors in that debacle, that's a different story. He should've stayed away from doing that case particularly with questionable provenance.


That only makes sense, but most aren’t educated enough and it seems reasonable at this point to give a bit less blind faith.

There are other options out there a previously mentioned. I'm good with the ones I choose. Personally, I don't have much of anything unopened and would only buy from reputable sources anyway if it was that old.

[Archangel1775]

Are you buddies with Steve Hart? Why do you keep defending him so much?

No, I just believe in holding people accountable for their actions or inaction. That includes the original owner,Goldin, WhatNot,Rippling Wax and yes, BBCE. But before I form an opinion about this Whatnot box, I'd like to see that the break was handled properly (unwrapped on video) and the packs weren't compromised after the BBCE exchange wrap came off. It's rather quite simple, don't look to deep into it like you are.

[Woodsy074]

Seriously, is there a video anywhere of this entire break? I found Packman's part on his channel but it was already well into the break.

[ShaqMagic]

Seriously, is there a video anywhere of this entire break? I found Packman's part on his channel but it was already well into the break. It was broadcast on whatnot, which doesn't appear to save past streams. (This is the link to the stream page: https://www.whatnot.com/live/c13d58aa-7630-43a9-9b5f-1787b8c4013f, it has a video there but that is just some promo video not the stream.)

There is a video of the crowd which has the audio, so e.g. you can hear which cards are coming out of a pack here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu-wQsrvLqs&t=5656s. Later the video turns to the stage, but you can't see the cards.

[boston12]

I’m not a BBCE supporter or hater. No skin in the game at all. But this has to put a serious dent in their credibility. I collect sealed wax, but not vintage. There is risk in modern sealed wax but much less so compared to vintage wax. When someone gets a BBCE wrapped vintage box you are putting 100% faith into that authentication. How could anyone put that much faith into BBCE with these high priced products moving forward?

[ninjacookies]

Since when have monopolies been a good thing?

People entrusted Steve's expertise because he found a very unique niche and conquered it, leaving very few if any alternatives in the space. And with virtually zero transparency (gotta protect the trade secrets, amirite?), all the high paying customers are left with are 'dude, just trust me...I been doing this awhile' promises sealed with a cellophane kiss. PSA's following the blueprint.

Unless he has some yet undiscovered x-ray technology able to distinguish Cobra Commander bass from a 57 without compromising factory patina, then I'm calling shenanigans. He's just managed to be a helluva Mike Baker disciple peddling the snake oil.



Dateline investigation with 40 assorted high end, antique cases sprinkled with Justin Beiber S2 packs sent anonymously.

Let's peel back the blinders of clecter idiocracy.

[jr24ai3]

Posted on the collectors/PSA forum.

The following is from Steve himself:

Let me explain how 1986/87 Fleer basketball collation runs within the packs. The cards come in the packs in reverse alphabetical order (Z to A) in 2 separate groups separated by 66. For example,

125
59
124
58
123
57
122
56
121
55

As you can see, the 2 groups of numbers are in reverse alphabetical order, intertwined within each other, separated by 66. This is how people can search out the packs with Jordan in them (or any other card). You just need to see what the top card is and the run is easily figured out.

This pattern is very consistent throughout the print run for 1986/87 Fleer basketball. However, there has been some anomalies that have popped up. Several years ago we were looking through the backs of the packs on a back to view the sticker showing. This helps us determine if the box has had packs switched in and out of it, or if it is a box that is still in its original form from Fleer. I was looking at the back and something crazy was staring at me. It was a Pittsburgh Pirates logo cards. Then another pack had a Kansas City Royals card on back. In 1986, it wasn’t all that important to get it completely correct on the printing. Remember, this stuff was worthless garbage. It probably was at some point they were printing Fleer Basketball Stickers and the Fleer Baseball Stickers (probably came in the 1986 Fleer baseball update set). The point was to print this stuff and get it shipped out. Also, if you look at VCP for the Jordan Sticker, you will see a listing for one with a Cincinnati Reds overlay graded by BGS to confirm this. Then a few years ago, Vegas Dave did a live break on a 1986/87 Fleer basketball box where he had celebrities call in and virtually open a pack. While we were watching this live break, something very rare and odd happened. A pack was opened and it had 2 of the same card back to back. I cant remember exactly who the card was, but for example it was Sedale Threatt fallowed by another Sedale Threatt. And/or there was a pack that had Louis Orr, followed by another card, then followed by another Louis Orr (not exactly sure on the player as this is just an example). Again, this is something we had really never seen before. The whole box was opened and everything about it was 100% good. So this is just another example that while rare, strange things happen.

So that brings us to this box in question. I was informed by email from someone that the cards were coming out in the completely wrong order with multiple cards in the packs (someone told me there was something like 4 Magic Johnsons in a pack). My first reaction was wondering what was going on here. So my team and I sat down and wrote down each and every card in the packs that we can find that were opened and now on the internet. We then studied it very carefully. The cards were not exactly in an order that was “completely off” (and there weren’t 4 Magic Johnsons in one pack, there were 4 Johnsons in one pack, all being a different Johnson). The cards still went in reverse alphabetical order in the packs. They just didn’t have the second run of alphabetical cards intertwined in them. There is also a point where there are doubles back to back. But more importantly, there is a pack where the cards run in this reverse order, then flip the other direction. Then this happens again in another pack in the EXACT same spot. Here were the runs:

Pack A Pack B
Tisdale Thompson
Threatt FLIP TO BLACKMON
Thompson Birdsong
FLIP TO BLACKMON Bird
Birdsong Benjamin
Bird Barkley
Benjamin Bailey
Barkley Bagley
Bailey Ainge
Bagley AGuirre
Ainge Adams
AGuirre Abdul-Jabbar

So as you can see, these packs are not “completely off” in the collation. In fact, the collation is actually spot-on, less the second alphabetical run. I have been doing this basically everyday of my life for the past 33 years. I have seen it all. I have studied not only the packs themselves, but opened the resealed ones to get a feel for the cards also. It would pretty much take the mind of a serial killer to take the cards like this and then have them flip over in the exact same spot then pick up the same alphabetical order again, in 2 different packs.
An addition, we closely watched the packs being ripped open. Not only are the flaps opening the way they should on good packs, the “inner guts”, as I like to call them, are opening correctly also (These are the inner folds of the packs where they got heat/waxed together).

Finally, I have heard some chatter that the Jordan cards graded low. From watching the video of a Jordan card being hit, you can clearly see that the Jordan is centered off to the top (hence the 7 grade) and is centered basically just like the surrounding cards in the pack. Without having the cards in hand to see the condition details, they could very well be mint cards, but get the lower grade of 7 because that’s the best the centering will allow.

Every advanced collector will tell you that when companies made certain collation patterns (for example 1975 through 1981 Topps baseball rack and cello) that there are anomalies that occur. Even if the collation is correct 99.5% of the time, there is and can be an anomaly. Remember, the idea was to print/package/and ship this stuff out ASAP.
In my opinion, this box has not been tampered with nor been resealed. I always knew this would happen someday. I figured that someday someone would open a box that was just crazy off. People would view it as counterfeit/resealed/tampered with. However, as we have just now seen, these things can and will happen. And it will happen again.

Thanks! BBCE

Steve Hart-Owner
Baseball Card Exchange, Inc.
2412 US Highway 41
Schererville, Indiana 46375
(800)598-8656
www.bbce.com
bbcexchange@sprintmail.com

[discodanman45]

Every advanced collector will tell you that when companies made certain collation patterns (for example 1975 through 1981 Topps baseball rack and cello) that there are anomalies that occur. Even if the collation is correct 99.5% of the time, there is and can be an anomaly. Remember, the idea was to print/package/and ship this stuff out ASAP.

The issue is this was a box made from multiple boxes. The weirdness was in all of the packs. If the packs from one box was weird, that is one thing. All the packs were weird. What are chances that all the packs from different boxes combined into this Frankenbox all had this weird anomaly?

[Thebirdman321]

Posted on the collectors/PSA forum.

The following is from Steve himself:

Let me explain how 1986/87 Fleer basketball collation runs within the packs. The cards come in the packs in reverse alphabetical order (Z to A) in 2 separate groups separated by 66. For example,

125
59
124
58
123
57
122
56
121
55

As you can see, the 2 groups of numbers are in reverse alphabetical order, intertwined within each other, separated by 66. This is how people can search out the packs with Jordan in them (or any other card). You just need to see what the top card is and the run is easily figured out.

This pattern is very consistent throughout the print run for 1986/87 Fleer basketball. However, there has been some anomalies that have popped up. Several years ago we were looking through the backs of the packs on a back to view the sticker showing. This helps us determine if the box has had packs switched in and out of it, or if it is a box that is still in its original form from Fleer. I was looking at the back and something crazy was staring at me. It was a Pittsburgh Pirates logo cards. Then another pack had a Kansas City Royals card on back. In 1986, it wasn’t all that important to get it completely correct on the printing. Remember, this stuff was worthless garbage. It probably was at some point they were printing Fleer Basketball Stickers and the Fleer Baseball Stickers (probably came in the 1986 Fleer baseball update set). The point was to print this stuff and get it shipped out. Also, if you look at VCP for the Jordan Sticker, you will see a listing for one with a Cincinnati Reds overlay graded by BGS to confirm this. Then a few years ago, Vegas Dave did a live break on a 1986/87 Fleer basketball box where he had celebrities call in and virtually open a pack. While we were watching this live break, something very rare and odd happened. A pack was opened and it had 2 of the same card back to back. I cant remember exactly who the card was, but for example it was Sedale Threatt fallowed by another Sedale Threatt. And/or there was a pack that had Louis Orr, followed by another card, then followed by another Louis Orr (not exactly sure on the player as this is just an example). Again, this is something we had really never seen before. The whole box was opened and everything about it was 100% good. So this is just another example that while rare, strange things happen.

So that brings us to this box in question. I was informed by email from someone that the cards were coming out in the completely wrong order with multiple cards in the packs (someone told me there was something like 4 Magic Johnsons in a pack). My first reaction was wondering what was going on here. So my team and I sat down and wrote down each and every card in the packs that we can find that were opened and now on the internet. We then studied it very carefully. The cards were not exactly in an order that was “completely off” (and there weren’t 4 Magic Johnsons in one pack, there were 4 Johnsons in one pack, all being a different Johnson). The cards still went in reverse alphabetical order in the packs. They just didn’t have the second run of alphabetical cards intertwined in them. There is also a point where there are doubles back to back. But more importantly, there is a pack where the cards run in this reverse order, then flip the other direction. Then this happens again in another pack in the EXACT same spot. Here were the runs:

Pack A Pack B
Tisdale Thompson
Threatt FLIP TO BLACKMON
Thompson Birdsong
FLIP TO BLACKMON Bird
Birdsong Benjamin
Bird Barkley
Benjamin Bailey
Barkley Bagley
Bailey Ainge
Bagley AGuirre
Ainge Adams
AGuirre Abdul-Jabbar

So as you can see, these packs are not “completely off” in the collation. In fact, the collation is actually spot-on, less the second alphabetical run. I have been doing this basically everyday of my life for the past 33 years. I have seen it all. I have studied not only the packs themselves, but opened the resealed ones to get a feel for the cards also. It would pretty much take the mind of a serial killer to take the cards like this and then have them flip over in the exact same spot then pick up the same alphabetical order again, in 2 different packs.
An addition, we closely watched the packs being ripped open. Not only are the flaps opening the way they should on good packs, the “inner guts”, as I like to call them, are opening correctly also (These are the inner folds of the packs where they got heat/waxed together).

Finally, I have heard some chatter that the Jordan cards graded low. From watching the video of a Jordan card being hit, you can clearly see that the Jordan is centered off to the top (hence the 7 grade) and is centered basically just like the surrounding cards in the pack. Without having the cards in hand to see the condition details, they could very well be mint cards, but get the lower grade of 7 because that’s the best the centering will allow.

Every advanced collector will tell you that when companies made certain collation patterns (for example 1975 through 1981 Topps baseball rack and cello) that there are anomalies that occur. Even if the collation is correct 99.5% of the time, there is and can be an anomaly. Remember, the idea was to print/package/and ship this stuff out ASAP.
In my opinion, this box has not been tampered with nor been resealed. I always knew this would happen someday. I figured that someday someone would open a box that was just crazy off. People would view it as counterfeit/resealed/tampered with. However, as we have just now seen, these things can and will happen. And it will happen again.

Thanks! BBCE

Steve Hart-Owner
Baseball Card Exchange, Inc.
2412 US Highway 41
Schererville, Indiana 46375
(800)598-8656
www.bbce.com
bbcexchange@sprintmail.com


I don’t buy this for a minute lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ShaqMagic]

So my team and I sat down and wrote down each and every card in the packs that we can find that were opened and now on the internet.Did you include this video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu-wQsrvLqs - when you did this? You can't see the cards, but they read out the names. I believe the first pack is opened at 1:22:30. edit-oh im a dumbo and didn't realize you weren't steve.

[whitmm]

Let me see if I understand Steve correctly. He really said that even though the packs did not have the very important second alphabetical run in them, these packs were spot on?

The fact that he's defending these packs despite them not having the very well known order should hurt his reputation more than anything.

[auburn35]

Ignoring the alleged resealed packs, referencing vegas dave as a credible source for this unusual sequence is really funny.

Posted on the collectors/PSA forum.

The following is from Steve himself:

Then a few years ago, Vegas Dave did a live break on a 1986/87 Fleer basketball box where he had celebrities call in and virtually open a pack. While we were watching this live break, something very rare and odd happened. A pack was opened and it had 2 of the same card back to back. I cant remember exactly who the card was, but for example it was Sedale Threatt fallowed by another Sedale Threatt. And/or there was a pack that had Louis Orr, followed by another card, then followed by another Louis Orr (not exactly sure on the player as this is just an example). Again, this is something we had really never seen before. The whole box was opened and everything about it was 100% good. So this is just another example that while rare, strange things happen.

[mc1]

https://c.tenor.com/DozZTQmVXIEAAAAC/oh-sure-john-candy.gif

[ReggieBush22]

Further enforcing why I never bought or trusted BBCE wax. It's just too easy to fake these boxes. All a matter of tangible things of some wrappers, cards, gum, etc being put together. With this much $$ involved, of course the scamsters dig even deeper and get better.

[ReggieBush22]

Of course we can't forget the infamous Pokémon screw up by BBCE. LOL.

[ReggieBush22]

I'm not sure what is more hilarious.

The fact that not one of the "influencers" had a clue? Or the fact that there are people that seemed shocked and surprised that Steve Hart hasn't a clue?

Come on folks. This hobby has been in the gutter since the 1980's. Rob Lifson stealing cards from the NY Public Library. Bill Mastro trimming and shill bidding. Doug Allen shill bidding. Gary Moser master trimmer (along with about 10 other guys). Mike Baker keeping cards when GAI went under. Mike Baker keeping cards when Global Authority went under. Dave Forman (owner of SGC) having his own cards graded and his brother shilling his cards in Mastro Auctions. PSA dealers getting grade bumps. Those are the good old days!

Now we have Steve Hart wrapping anything that comes with payments. PSA grading tons of trimmed cards. CC2 running fake PSA group submission business. Influencers pumping whatever they are told to pump and receiving "sweet" free stuff for their troubles. Marx Cards eating for everyone and breakers just generally screwing everyone. Fake comps, Fake sales, tons more shill bidding.

And the sheep just keep on handing their money over.

I'm waiting for the first vault company to go BK. That is when the *&*% will really hit the fan. Bet Mike Baker will be there to scoop up some of those cards too! Even put a few stickers on them on the way out the door!

Negative much? LOL

[ReggieBush22]

You stated you don’t see an issue as long as the box meets the criteria you outlined above. Having the appropriate number of each card in the proper order does not exclude the box from being sealed. The intelligent scammer would reseal a box with all the right cards, in the right order, but swap out the big names for lesser to mid-grade conditioned cards.

Exactly.

For what a BBCE 1986 Fleer wax sells for, putting in a few MJs is pennies to the dollar for the scammer.

[ReggieBush22]

The problem here is we can't find the video of the WhatNot BBCE box being opened. Hopefully there is one. Otherwise, saying it was the BBCE wrapped box is just as good as a random breaker unwrapping a box off camera and saying it's factory sealed. This could actually be a disaster for WhatNot if there isn't a video. Kinda sets the precedent for their application.

I bet you have a lot invested in BBCE wax huh? Or why so blindly defending them?

[mc1]

From the BBCE letter:

It is in my best opinion that this wax box is not the exact 36 packs issued by Fleer. It appears that the packs were taken from a few different locations to build a full box.

[ReggieBush22]

What drew me away from BBCE years ago is when I saw their Ebay store and they were selling a ton of packs with key stars/RCs on top along with sealed wax. I mean come on. LOL.

[Thebirdman321]

I’m surprised Steve didn’t try this out on the pokemon case. “You see GI Joe and Pokemon were printed in the same country so it makes sense for full packs to find their way into boxes!”

[RogerGodahell]

Let me see if I understand Steve correctly. He really said that even though the packs did not have the very important second alphabetical run in them, these packs were spot on?

The fact that he's defending these packs despite them not having the very well known order should hurt his reputation more than anything.

I think he's saying in normal collation every other card is in sequential order separated by another card that is 66 numbers off like 100, 64, 99, 63. He's saying Fleer messed up the collation on this box by not including the alternate card to break up the perfect sequence. Which made the collation of these packs 100, 99, 98, 97 etc.

I see what he's saying but i don't know if i believe it. I think we'd need to see the entire box break and not a pack here and there. Was every pack like that or just a couple? No one has a full video of the break? I think i've seen 2 or 3 packs from the box opened. Anything's possible i guess but it sounds like he's never seen it himself and he's been authenticating them for what 33 years?

[RogerGodahell]

My math was off it should be 100, 44, 99, 43

Anyways seems fishy to me if he's never seen it out of who knows how many boxes and packs he's seen in his lifetime of these.

[mc1]

Did you include this video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu-wQsrvLqs - when you did this? You can't see the cards, but they read out the names. I believe the first pack is opened at 1:22:30.

I wrote down the first three packs. Its a mess. Sometimes they only say the first name, other times the last name. They probably even skip some.

1st pack
Lewis Lloyd
Lever
Allen (Leavell)
Laimbeer
King
Kellogg
Jordan
Ewing?
English Sticker?

2nd pack
Bagley
Ainge
Aguirre
Adams
Abdul-Jabbar
Checklist
Worthy
Orlando (Woolridge)
Wood
Willis
Olajuwon Sticker

3rd Pack
Vandeweghe
Johnson (#51?)
Kelly (Tripucka?)
Andrew (Toney?)
Craig (Hodges?)
Gervin
Sikma ?
World B Free
Isiah Thomas Sticker

[ShaqMagic]

I wrote down the first three packs. Its a mess. Sometimes they only say the first name, other times the last name. They probably even skip some.

Yeah it isn't great, but you can gather some info from it. Pack 4 (1:40) had an alternating order (7, 73, 6, 72, 5, 71, 4, 70, 3, 69, 2, 68). Pack 5 (1:43) did also (22, 87, 21, 86, 20, 85, 19, 84, 18, 17); either I didn't hear or they didn't say one card, but it looks like it is probably 83 between 18 and 17. Then pack 6 (1:45) we go wacky packy (28, 27, 26, 25, 24, 23, 110, 109, 108, 107, 106, 105).

[jr24ai3]

Let me see if I understand Steve correctly. He really said that even though the packs did not have the very important second alphabetical run in them, these packs were spot on?

The fact that he's defending these packs despite them not having the very well known order should hurt his reputation more than anything.

The packs I saw included both alphabetical sequences. They just were not intertwined like normal. The packs I watched had a run of 4-5 cards(EX letters J-k) and then another group of 4-5 cards in the W's. Correct cards in the pack based on the sequence, just not intertwined.

It's up to each individual person to decide if they believe him or not. I don't deal with unopened wax.

[Archangel1775]

Posted on the collectors/PSA forum.

The following is from Steve himself:

Let me explain how 1986/87 Fleer basketball collation runs within the packs. The cards come in the packs in reverse alphabetical order (Z to A) in 2 separate groups separated by 66. For example,

125
59
124
58
123
57
122
56
121
55

As you can see, the 2 groups of numbers are in reverse alphabetical order, intertwined within each other, separated by 66. This is how people can search out the packs with Jordan in them (or any other card). You just need to see what the top card is and the run is easily figured out.

This pattern is very consistent throughout the print run for 1986/87 Fleer basketball.





Unless he has some yet undiscovered x-ray technology able to distinguish Cobra Commander bass from a 57 without compromising factory patina, then I'm calling shenanigans. He's just managed to be a helluva Mike Baker disciple peddling the snake oil.


It's just math, now you know and knowing is half the battle! Yo Joe!

[Archangel1775]

I bet you have a lot invested in BBCE wax huh? Or why so blindly defending them?

Actually no, I have 1 box from 1977 that I bought over a decade ago for $700 and a couple Desert Shield packs. I open my sh*t, unfortunately.

As for defending anyone, you missed my comment about holding people accountable. Go back and read it. It was a group break. I'd like to see the video of them unwrapping the box. All I've found is video of a 1986 Fleer box with on a table with 1/3 of the packs already opened.

But if you want to go ahead and put blind trust in a breaker opening a box off-camera and telling you it was factory sealed, there are many breakers out there on social media that will take your money.

Moving on, is there anyone that watched the stream and saw the box get unwrapped?

[SpartanWarrior]

Since when have monopolies been a good thing?

People entrusted Steve's expertise because he found a very unique niche and conquered it, leaving very few if any alternatives in the space. And with virtually zero transparency (gotta protect the trade secrets, amirite?), all the high paying customers are left with are 'dude, just trust me...I been doing this awhile' promises sealed with a cellophane kiss. PSA's following the blueprint.

Unless he has some yet undiscovered x-ray technology able to distinguish Cobra Commander bass from a 57 without compromising factory patina, then I'm calling shenanigans. He's just managed to be a helluva Mike Baker disciple peddling the snake oil.



Dateline investigation with 40 assorted high end, antique cases sprinkled with Justin Beiber S2 packs sent anonymously.

Let's peel back the blinders of clecter idiocracy.
---------------------------------------------

+1

[SpartanWarrior]

Wow, crazy to read this stuff. How about Don West? Or he was just a salesman?

----------------------------

Don was the salesman, the hobby expert he partnered with was Ken Goldin.

[SpartanWarrior]

Correct me if I am wrong, but he trusted someone, got burned, and made it right - correct?

Now, he SHOULD have made it right, so he doesnt get brownie points for that, but Ill be dammed if ive never been duped by anyone in life. And I read this person had a $1 million debt with PSA, and CC2 accounted for 120k of that - so obviously a lot of other people trusted this person too. Not sure how that points to anything negative on the guy (cc2) unless I have info wrong here.

------------------------------------------------

Its much more than trusting someone.

He told his customers for a year he was submitting cards to PSA. He wasn't.

There rules/regulations/laws around handling of deferred payments. He outright broke them. Until he got the cards back he actually was in a bad legal spot. Sending money & cards to Marx Cards instead of PSA as advertised was fraudulent.

He knew in November what the situation was (by his own admission). He waited until January when the *&%& was about to hit the fan to let people know Marx cards was insolvent. He kept quiet hoping that Marx cards could get enough submissions to pay him back. So basically he was fine with other people getting ripped off as long as he might get a few more dollars.

Three wrongs don't make a right. Lying to customers, clearly breaking the law and then allowing more people to be scammed in the hopes he sees some money back aren't exactly signs that he's a stand up guy.

[SpartanWarrior]

Actually, CC2 is great for the growth of the hobby. A new generation of collectors watch his videos and what he does. All I've seen him do is promote the hobby and particularly football. His trade nights at his shop is an example what every shop should be doing if we want the hobby to survive. You can see the positiveness he brings at the card shows he attends. The plus is that I don't see him give spiels about what to InVeSt NOW! in.

See post above.

I'd just remind folks that at one point in time Bill Mastro and Doug Allen were considered "great guys" "the very fabric of the hobby" "hobby pioneers".

Fraud is fraud. Lying is Lying. And making sweet videos of yourself patting kids on the head doesn't change that.

[MJGOAT23]

Can someone better explain which cards are Pack A and Pack B in the below list? Is he saying there were 2 good packs with normal(-ish?) alternating sequencing, (ostensibly the two that replaced the tampered packs), and there were 34 wonky ones?

Pack A Pack B
Tisdale Thompson
Threatt FLIP TO BLACKMON
Thompson Birdsong
FLIP TO BLACKMON Bird
Birdsong Benjamin
Bird Barkley
Benjamin Bailey
Barkley Bagley
Bailey Ainge
Bagley AGuirre
Ainge Adams
AGuirre Abdul-Jabbar

[boston12]

I do think this was a compromised box. But I can confirm a close friend of mine pulled two Jordan’s out of one pack in the late 90s. I can’t speak for the rest of the pack but weird stuff does happen. But this really seems off.

[mc1]

The packs I saw included both alphabetical sequences. They just were not intertwined like normal. The packs I watched had a run of 4-5 cards(EX letters J-k) and then another group of 4-5 cards in the W's. Correct cards in the pack based on the sequence, just not intertwined.

It's up to each individual person to decide if they believe him or not. I don't deal with unopened wax.

Some packs had only one run of alphabetical cards. One other jumped like 80 numbers and did alternate. Other packs had multiples. Some guys had 5 stickers and a couple only 1. Its a frankenstein box of packs with wildly inconsistent collation.:)!

I wonder if the box opened by Drake or the one opened with the 97-98 Metal Universe had all these inconsistencies.

[rats60]

See post above.

I'd just remind folks that at one point in time Bill Mastro and Doug Allen were considered "great guys" "the very fabric of the hobby" "hobby pioneers".

Fraud is fraud. Lying is Lying. And making sweet videos of yourself patting kids on the head doesn't change that.

Bill Mastro was never considered a "great guy," even in the 1980s.

[RogerGodahell]

Hard to say i can't believe there's no good video of this. It's like they were opening a box of '87 Topps baseball or something. Damn didn't i feast on that product as a kid. That's how i cut my teeth on sports cards. Bought so much of it. I remember seeing boxes of '86 Fleer sitting on shelves at a few stores collecting dust. Didn't want it, basketball cards weren't worth anything. No basketball Beckett yet to tell us which cards to chase.

[ReggieBush22]

Hard to say i can't believe there's no good video of this. It's like they were opening a box of '87 Topps baseball or something. Damn didn't i feast on that product as a kid. That's how i cut my teeth on sports cards. Bought so much of it. I remember seeing boxes of '86 Fleer sitting on shelves at a few stores collecting dust. Didn't want it, basketball cards weren't worth anything. No basketball Beckett yet to tell us which cards to chase.

Tell me about it!

I remember seeing 1986 Fleer packs for $1 at California Sportscards in Westwood, CA (by UCLA) when, like you said, basketball Beckett didn't even exist. But I collected junk stuff like 1987 Topps baseball LOL. I sometimes wonder if I could go back in time, what would I do. Buying a bunch of 1986 Fleer wax would be one of them.

[Brazenways]

https://i.postimg.cc/yY49NMdq/BA867643-82-F5-477-D-863-F-1-BAD6-D689-F60.jpg

[RogerGodahell]

Tell me about it!

I remember seeing 1986 Fleer packs for $1 at California Sportscards in Westwood, CA (by UCLA) when, like you said, basketball Beckett didn't even exist. But I collected junk stuff like 1987 Topps baseball LOL. I sometimes wonder if I could go back in time, what would I do. Buying a bunch of 1986 Fleer wax would be one of them.

Sportflics, remember those? Those were actually pretty cool when they came out but aren't worth anything either which is kind of surprising. I don't think they were printed at nearly the same quantity of other stuff around that time, but maybe. I had some not a ton of them. They should make those for basketball again that would be kind of neat.

[Beavers98]

Hard to say i can't believe there's no good video of this. It's like they were opening a box of '87 Topps baseball or something. Damn didn't i feast on that product as a kid. That's how i cut my teeth on sports cards. Bought so much of it. I remember seeing boxes of '86 Fleer sitting on shelves at a few stores collecting dust. Didn't want it, basketball cards weren't worth anything. No basketball Beckett yet to tell us which cards to chase.

OMG that's my story too. There was a department store that had rows and rows of discounted 86-87 Fleer at .25 cents a pack, and I was more of a basketball guy. Did I buy any of it, Nope, I went for the full price 1987 Topps at 40-50 cents whatever it was. 87 Topps was the first full box I ever bought too HHA

[rats60]

Basketball cards weren't a thing until 1989 when Jordan took the Bulls to the ECF. Even then it was only 1986 Fleer for the Jordan RC and Vintage, 1948-1957-1961. I remember the promoter of the National in 1989 wanting to have Jordan sign, but passed because they would have charged $50 for an auto when the biggest baseball names were only $20.

[Asian62150]

I've been to BBCE and talked to Steve a few times. Normal interactions, did a few deals with him years ago, seems like a nice guy, etc...

Issue as I see it is he just doesn't take responsibility, which is a major red flag with this kind of thing.

In the Pokemon video, it's "we ALL got duped...agree???" No. When it's your job to authenticate something and it fails...YOU got duped.

Same with this Fleer box. It's just passing the blame or trying to make sure everyone is culpable, not just him.

-It's not a sealed box anymore but hey! the packs are 100% legit
-this one just happens to be the 1 in 10000 that are collated this way
-just a psa...there are more out there like this so don't be surprised if you see others with the same issue in the future

Honestly, there are just some things that aren't meant to be authenticated at this time because they are too easily forged. I would have more respect for BBCE if they had said "we're not well-versed enough in Pokemon to authenticate this." Or "1986 Fleer is too hard to fake so we're not going to touch that stuff."

And like others have said...what's the process for BBCE's authentication? What do they look for? They're just another wizard behind the curtain, happily taking ppl's money. It's telling that even BGS and PSA are more transparent than they are.

[duron]

You stated it takes magic. I'm telling you it's takes knowledge of what you're buying.

It’s pretty clear what I meant with my “weird” phrasing. Obviously it takes knowledge, but why is it so seemingly esoteric?

Hart really is the Magic Man.

3vlAdMeZSfw

BBCE f*cked that up big time and rightfully so, effected his reputation. I don't believe he had ill intent though. For the other actors in that debacle, that's a different story. He should've stayed away from doing that case particularly with questionable provenance.

Outright ill intent isn’t even necessary when you know people will blindly trust you.

If we’re going to boil it down to a comparison between this and keeping counterfeit vs authentic card differences close to the vest, that’s highly debatable.

[GOATcards]

[QUOTE=shaner1;18360031]
————————————————————————————————————————
Interesting. Perhaps the coin was resting right next to the strip cut Gretzky T206 Wagner?
If interested in learning of the type of people in the Fine Art world, check out ‘The Last Leonardo’ by Ben Lewis. Many parallels to the sports card world, with bigger #’s.

Ultimately, the best part of this story so far is SCR’s WWE style promo at the end of one of the videos. Hilarious!

check out Orson Welles' 'F for Fake' for coverage of a guy who could easily forge any great artwork. (Or was this coverage itself a spoof....)

Great movie in any case, maybe top 30 (https://rateyourmusic.com/list/cathcacr/100-essential-films/) all-time.

[k13]

I thought bbce boxes were just packs authenticated and they could come from random boxes so the sequence can be different. Only case fresh boxes were labeled differently.

[thenashcollecto]

He takes payment for authenticating packs and boxes but than holds no liability for them? How can that market survive at this point?

[Archangel1775]

He takes payment for authenticating packs and boxes but than holds no liability for them? How can that market survive at this point?

It's been like that since BBCE started if I remember correctly. Prices have only gone up overall. Ultimately, it's just one man's opinion. People will decide with their wallet. Just go with a reputable source and know what you are buying and what to look out for. I've bought 1981 Topps Rack packs from the back of a trunk and they were definitely good. I inspected the pictures, asked the provenance from the seller and looked over each personally. Everything added up and I have a case worth of racks now. I didn't need BBCE, RVP or anyone else to tell me that.

[Archangel1775]

I'm a simple man, you all shooting big words, poems and song at me isn't going to change the method I utilize to come to and informed conclusion.

Saying that, I'm still curious to know the chain of custody of the box from the National display to the table at the live break. How much time elapsed, did it go from A to B, etc. Additionally, with the recent BBCE statement, I'd like to know more about the original sources of acquisition of the packs from the submitter of this box.

[KhalDrogo]

I'm a simple man, you all shooting big words and poems at me isn't going to change the method I utilize to come to and informed conclusion.

Saying that, I'm still curious to know the chain of custody of the box from the National display to the table at the live break. How much time elapsed, did it go from A to B, etc. Additionally, with the recent BBCE statement, I'd like to know more about the original sources of acquisition of the packs from the submitter of this box.
I like how you're going to die on this hill. You really think someone swapped boxes is the most logical explanation, when the seller of the box through Goldin opened one of the two tampered packs and had the same results? Doesn't even seem like Steve is refuting the box opened was what he sealed.

[mc1]

When you hear hoofbeats…

[xbignick]

When your statement of authenticity includes quoting an event that included Vegas Dave you probably shouldn't bother...big yikes.

[japhi]

Steve has already come out and defended the box so no need to see the wrap being broken. He believes it is legit.

Actually no, I have 1 box from 1977 that I bought over a decade ago for $700 and a couple Desert Shield packs. I open my sh*t, unfortunately.

As for defending anyone, you missed my comment about holding people accountable. Go back and read it. It was a group break. I'd like to see the video of them unwrapping the box. All I've found is video of a 1986 Fleer box with on a table with 1/3 of the packs already opened.

But if you want to go ahead and put blind trust in a breaker opening a box off-camera and telling you it was factory sealed, there are many breakers out there on social media that will take your money.

Moving on, is there anyone that watched the stream and saw the box get unwrapped?

[IronCladLou]

It’s pretty clear what I meant with my “weird” phrasing. Obviously it takes knowledge, but why is it so seemingly esoteric?

Hart really is the Magic Man.

3vlAdMeZSfw



LOL

He's a magic man, oh, he's got the magic hands

[FBCardFan]

I like how you're going to die on this hill. You really think someone swapped boxes is the most logical explanation, when the seller of the box through Goldin opened one of the two tampered packs and had the same results? Doesn't even seem like Steve is refuting the box opened was what he sealed.

Most OBVIOUS conclusion is that Triple Double Sports (the ones who had it certified to begin with) opened a box or a few boxes and repacked it with low grade Jordans and others as it could have still been argued it was real since Jordans came out. He has multiple videos of several Jordans, all PSA 8 and higher, that he has had graded and has had hundreds of cards submitted for grading from this set. This all would have worked had it not been opened at the NSCC and posted all over the internet. Almost every card is either off center, has a print defect or rough edges.

My question is, a company that is valued at $3.5B and gives away a lambo just for pulling and selling a card on its app, are they going to do ANYTHING for those 36 people that won one of these packs with the hopes of even getting a non-Jordan card that could actually grade well? Even a good amount of site credit would be a good start.

[Archangel1775]

I like how you're going to die on this hill. You really think someone swapped boxes is the most logical explanation, when the seller of the box through Goldin opened one of the two tampered packs and had the same results? Doesn't even seem like Steve is refuting the box opened was what he sealed.

No, I just want to rule it out homie.

Steve has already come out and defended the box so no need to see the wrap being broken. He believes it is legit.

I want facts, not what someone believes. I could care less if that's what Steve or anyone else "believes". I'm still shocked that there is no video of a simple $150,000 box break. I see a 3-hour plus video on the Rippin Wax YT page that was live but it was directed at the crowd for some odd reason until they were already into the break. I do see a cameraman up close and personal while its happening though. Where the heck is that video.

[mc1]

Most OBVIOUS conclusion is that Triple Double Sports (the ones who had it certified to begin with) opened a box or a few boxes and repacked it with low grade Jordans and others as it could have still been argued it was real since Jordans came out. He has multiple videos of several Jordans, all PSA 8 and higher, that he has had graded and has had hundreds of cards submitted for grading from this set. This all would have worked had it not been opened at the NSCC and posted all over the internet. Almost every card is either off center, has a print defect or rough edges.

My question is, a company that is valued at $3.5B and gives away a lambo just for pulling and selling a card on its app, are they going to do ANYTHING for those 36 people that won one of these packs with the hopes of even getting a non-Jordan card that could actually grade well? Even a good amount of site credit would be a good start.
Delusional:doh:

[FBCardFan]

Delusional:doh:

That WHATNOT would be a stand up company and do something for those people as an oops we bought a bad box and got dupped by BBCE. Yeah, it is pie in the sky.

[mc1]

That WHATNOT would be a stand up company and do something for those people as an oops we bought a bad box and got dupped by BBCE. Yeah, it is pie in the sky.

The blame lies 100% with BBCE. Theyre the ones that need to make everyone right.

[KhalDrogo]

I want facts, not what someone believes. I could care less if that's what Steve or anyone else "believes".
:cry:

Agreed! I wouldn’t trust Steve’s opinion either.

[Archangel1775]

:cry:

Agreed! I wouldn’t trust Steve’s opinion either.

With the statement that was released.....I'm definitely would like as much info as possible from ALL parties involved.

[Archangel1775]

The blame lies 100% with BBCE. Theyre the ones that need to make everyone right.

No, it 100% does not. Morally, for sure, some of it, if a few other possibilities can be completely ruled out. Legally, none at all, particularly if you read the fine print found on their site.

https://www.bbcexchange.com/authentication

[KhalDrogo]

No, it 100% does not. Morally, for sure, some of it, if a few other possibilities can be completely ruled out. Legally, none at all, particularly if you read the fine print found on their site.

https://www.bbcexchange.com/authentication
Which is why BBCE wrap should be held in much lower regard than it is. I can’t even imagine how many bad boxes and cases Steve has wrapped for his buddies over the years.

[Archangel1775]

Which is why BBCE wrap should be held in much lower regard than it is. I can’t even imagine how many bad boxes and cases Steve has wrapped for his buddies over the years.

It wont be. I havent done the research but has PSA pack submissions slowed down? If not and a $3 million dollar bogus case of Pokemon didn't put a dent in the business, I dont see this doing that. Will it lower confidence, probably for some. Again though, what alternative is there that can immediately gain the confidence of consumers and still overtake BBCE market share? There isn't one. Personally, if I did buy a box off eBay to open, I'm still paying the premium for a BBCE box. If anything comes out of this case, Steve needs to hire a PR manager to filter out these YT peeps. They're using him for clout and the damage is just going to his reputation and business.

[mc1]

Personally, if I did buy a box off eBay to open, I'm still paying the premium for a BBCE box. If anything comes out of this case, Steve needs to hire a PR manager to filter out these YT peeps. They're using him for clout and the damage is just going to his reputation and business.

:confused:Well, if he were a bit better at authenticating cases and boxes then he wouldnt get burned on social media.

[JAMSC]

Personally, if I did buy a box off eBay to open, I'm still paying the premium for a BBCE box.

BBCE wrap should be a negative on any sealed product. Pretty clear Steve doesn’t have any actual expertise to certify these products and BBCE was being used by scammers to add a false sense of legitimacy to resealed products. Incredibly likely he was in on it too.

[Asian62150]

It wont be. I havent done the research but has PSA pack submissions slowed down? If not and a $3 million dollar bogus case of Pokemon didn't put a dent in the business, I dont see this doing that. Will it lower confidence, probably for some. Again though, what alternative is there that can immediately gain the confidence of consumers and still overtake BBCE market share? There isn't one. Personally, if I did buy a box off eBay to open, I'm still paying the premium for a BBCE box. If anything comes out of this case, Steve needs to hire a PR manager to filter out these YT peeps. They're using him for clout and the damage is just going to his reputation and business.

Part of the issue is some of these items just shouldn't be authenticated. Either it is too difficult to know for sure or the technology hasn't been invented yet to really know if something is legit and hasn't been tampered with.

It's ok to say "I'm not comfortable authenticating this." To me, that would be a positive thing because it says you're not just slapping a silly seal on anything that gets you money and the stuff you authenticate you really do know what to look for.

If Steve did that with the Pokemon case, I would have had much more respect for their certification process and what earns a BBCE seal and what does not.

And I'm not even sure how BBCE got their market share. Is it because they were first to do this sort of thing? So many people call Steve an "expert" but what makes him an expert? Just his experience since he was first to create this niche? Was he employed by Fleer back in 1986 and part of the basketball card team so he was able to have this wealth of inside knowledge about how the cards were packaged in packs/boxes/cases? Did he just know enough ppl to start this and drum up enough grassroots business to become "the" guy? He's clearly shown he is not really an expert.

What sort of procedure does BBCE look for specifically in regards to 1986 Fleer that led them to believe the box/packs were legit?

Stuff in the hobby just needs to be more transparent, period. It's easy to search for how to spot Fleer MJ fakes. There's a working database for trimmed cards (thanks BO) but all this stuff just needs to be way more public. Anyone claiming something is "authentic" needs to pull back the curtain and show everyone what goes on to earn that "authentic" label.

It's a shame that BBCE can mess up that many times so terribly and not really see consequences for their incompetence.

PSA/Goldin/PWCC/BGS, etc...should all denounce BBCE's "expertise" or call out the Pokemon/Fleer 86 frauds publicly, but you know they won't because they're all in bed with each other to some degree and they know they each have skeletons in the closet that none of them want exposed or brought up again.

[oldgoldy97]

Is BBCE wrap job for buddies any different than a PSA 10 job for buddies? Both things contained aren’t what they appear to be.

[Archangel1775]

BBCE wrap should be a negative on any sealed product.

I take it you've never bought an old wax pack or wax box off eBay before?

[KhalDrogo]

It wont be. I havent done the research but has PSA pack submissions slowed down? If not and a $3 million dollar bogus case of Pokemon didn't put a dent in the business, I dont see this doing that. Will it lower confidence, probably for some. Again though, what alternative is there that can immediately gain the confidence of consumers and still overtake BBCE market share? There isn't one. Personally, if I did buy a box off eBay to open, I'm still paying the premium for a BBCE box. If anything comes out of this case, Steve needs to hire a PR manager to filter out these YT peeps. They're using him for clout and the damage is just going to his reputation and business.
I don’t keep track of pack pop reports.

Not sure why you keep asking what alternative to BBCE there is. Authenticating sealed wax has proven to be a sham. If BBCE is the best there is, that speaks to how little you can trust any of it.

[Archangel1775]

Is BBCE wrap job for buddies any different than a PSA 10 job for buddies? Both things contained aren’t what they appear to be.

BGS 10 you mean. That's why facts are important, whether it comes in the form of witness accounts, video, statistical analysis or straight up in black and white.

[ninjacookies]

I don't see how this can be a surprise to anyone with a pulse that's been meandering in the kard game over the past few years.


It's no different than PSA slabbing a recolored grail, BGS encapsulating a counterfeit, or JSA notarizing a Mantle jersey scribed by Larry in accounting.

Be it unintentional or willful negligence (more the latter), there is corruption at all levels . Some just choose to ignore or excuse it based on their personal allegiances.

There are individuals in this thread hurling tomahawk missiles that'll purposely ghost a BODA thread on a trimmed lighthouse label.


#whodoyouneglect?

https://c.tenor.com/1iXU7qMdKBEAAAAd/it-is-what-it-is-it-is-what.gif

[Asian62150]

I take it you've never bought an old wax pack or wax box off eBay before?

I haven't but I can accept that it's just better not to buy certain things.

Let's say I really wanted the 74/99 LeBron Exquisite RPA because 74 was my jersey number in intramural sports.

I find out it's altered. That's a huge bummer and I wish that never happened, but it did and that card is ruined for me so I no longer want it. Life goes on.

I'm not going to justify and lie to myself that it's fine when in reality, it isn't.

BBCE is trying to fool a bunch of ppl. If they refuse to stand behind their own work, why should you?

[Archangel1775]

It's ok to say "I'm not comfortable authenticating this." To me, that would be a positive thing because it says you're not just slapping a silly seal on anything that gets you money and the stuff you authenticate you really do know what to look for.

If Steve did that with the Pokemon case, I would have had much more respect for their certification process and what earns a BBCE seal and what does not.

Agreed, if he had PR manager it would've been a lot easier after they researched who they were dealing with. It simply wouldn't have happened at all.



And I'm not even sure how BBCE got their market share. Is it because they were first to do this sort of thing? So many people call Steve an "expert" but what makes him an expert? Just his experience since he was first to create this niche? Was he employed by Fleer back in 1986 and part of the basketball card team so he was able to have this wealth of inside knowledge about how the cards were packaged in packs/boxes/cases? Did he just know enough ppl to start this and drum up enough grassroots business to become "the" guy? He's clearly shown he is not really an expert.

He was a dealer that earned the trust of many over the course of 20 years and filled a void in the hobby that really would still exist, without BBCE. I'm not sure anyone outside of a handful of people are willing or can do what he does. Moving on, establishing a relationship with PSA was the next evolution of his business. It wasn't done overnight. He is an expert for sure but has recently made some really bad mistakes just for taking these YT influencers business. Never mind the authentication side of it.


What sort of procedure does BBCE look for specifically in regards to 1986 Fleer that led them to believe the box/packs were legit?

The sequencing explanation is in the thread. In general though, just like inspecting the condition of a card, you look at the details. Wax packs were manufactured, packaged and sealed a certain way.It could vary from year to year and company to company. Gum size and thickness could be different from year to year as well. The wax being applied to the pack may have rolled off the machine a certain way, the way the corner folds are may be unique. If there were 4 uncut sheets, let's say A,B,C and D, maybe cards from A and B were on one side with C and D on the other side of the flip. Again, the info is out there. If someone made a thread titled "1986 Fleer Basketball Wax Packs", you can simply rename it "How to make fake 1986 Fleer Basketball Wax Packs"

There is a lot of info out there if you're willing to do the work. Here are on these very forums, you can reach out to certain members and ask if x late 90's basketball insert is legit, backdoored or counterfeit. The reason the knowledge isn't readily shared is because it can be used against honest people. Scammers are out there and would glady take advantage of the information.


It's a shame that INSERT COMPANY HERE can mess up that many times so terribly and not really see consequences for their incompetence.


Could be Goldin, PWCC, PSA, BGS, Panini, Topps....it comes to personal choice and what you want to spend your money on.

[Archangel1775]

BBCE is trying to fool a bunch of ppl. If they refuse to stand behind their own work, why should you?

I believe in the saying "To error is human". As a leader it's important that people can learn from their mistakes and recover. They become a better person, employee and team member. However, there is also a certain moral compass that drives that belief. If an individual makes a mistake this is in opposition of those principles and especially done intentionally, then it's time to move on. I've bought from BBCE and Steve for over 15 years going back the PSA forums. I've always found him and BBCE to be trustworthy, honorable and morally sound in my limited interactions. I've seen his business grow from six figures to I'm sure, 8-figures in that time frame with the foundation being his expertise and those guiding principles I mentioned. Of course, the question becomes, has it become too much for him to handle? What's his support system and has anything else changed to effect that foundation? I'm interested in knowing. Who knows though, this event could be detrimental to business or just a blip, though a big one. The hobby will ultimately decide.

[auburn35]

Not sure what Steve plans on detailing (video access and a breakdown of the full break?) but someone mentioned on the CU forums (https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13310369/#Comment_13310369) that he will be providing another response this weekend.

"Steve will be posting publicly about the box later this weekend with data and details that should clarify a lot of the questions being posed here. It is also important to note that collation anomalies from the factory are not always evident until the packs are opened, especially with wax."

[ninjacookies]

Will Mike Baker be available to certify Steve's statement with a rigorous 10 step process? I want to make sure it's legit.

[Asian62150]

I believe in the saying "To error is human". As a leader it's important that people can learn from their mistakes and recover. They become a better person, employee and team member. However, there is also a certain moral compass that drives that belief. If an individual makes a mistake this is in opposition of those principles and especially done intentionally, then it's time to move on. I've bought from BBCE and Steve for over 15 years going back the PSA forums. I've always found him and BBCE to be trustworthy, honorable and morally sound in my limited interactions. I've seen his business grow from six figures to I'm sure, 8-figures in that time frame with the foundation being his expertise and those guiding principles I mentioned. Of course, the question becomes, has it become too much for him to handle? What's his support system and has anything else changed to effect that foundation? I'm interested in knowing. Who knows though, this event could be detrimental to business or just a blip, though a big one. The hobby will ultimately decide.

100% agree that we all make mistakes and everyone deserves a second chance. But part of getting that second chance is owning up and taking responsibility for your mistakes.

Steve saying "We all got duped, agree???" is much different than "Hey guys, I'm sorry. I was the one who got duped here. This is on me." Especially when your job is to authenticate the item. That's the only reason you are in these videos to begin with.

I've also dealt with Steve a few times and each time has been fine. There was an issue with an item one time but Steve was quick to remedy the situation. But I've said it before...someone doing 10 right things doesn't make them perfect. And someone doing one wrong thing doesn't make them the worst person in the world.

In general I think we're too quick to make extreme examples out of ppl.

And I don't think a PR firm would have helped Steve avoid the Pokemon thing. Steve should have helped Steve avoid the Pokemon thing. If you don't know it, don't pretend to know it. Especially if ppl put their trust in you. It's okay to pass on items because you are unsure. If you really had ethical and moral guiding principles, then no amount of money should have made you put your stamp of approval on something you admittedly had zero business authenticating.

And if you do know it, then stand behind your work.

Anyway, everyone makes their own choices. At this point, BBCE wrapping simply makes an item less desirable to me. Part of me wants to say "if you want to keep throwing your money at this stuff, knock yourself out." But when we keep seeing these fakes over and over, it makes the hobby as a whole look bad and scummy and I don't want that.

[duron]

I don't see how this can be a surprise to anyone with a pulse that's been meandering in the kard game over the past few years.


It's no different than PSA slabbing a recolored grail, BGS encapsulating a counterfeit, or JSA notarizing a Mantle jersey scribed by Larry in accounting.

Be it unintentional or willful negligence (more the latter), there is corruption at all levels . Some just choose to ignore or excuse it based on their personal allegiances.

There are individuals in this thread hurling tomahawk missiles that'll purposely ghost a BODA thread on a trimmed lighthouse label.


#whodoyouneglect?

https://c.tenor.com/1iXU7qMdKBEAAAAd/it-is-what-it-is-it-is-what.gif

https://y.yarn.co/2331f437-7300-4581-a631-a782479a4553_text.gif

[FBCardFan]

Not sure what Steve plans on detailing (video access and a breakdown of the full break?) but someone mentioned on the CU forums (https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13310369/#Comment_13310369) that he will be providing another response this weekend.

"Steve will be posting publicly about the box later this weekend with data and details that should clarify a lot of the questions being posed here. It is also important to note that collation anomalies from the factory are not always evident until the packs are opened, especially with wax."

How can he possibly clarify this? A coalation issue or sequence issue may have been explained IF it was a single pack or if another example had already been documented. But it hasn't, and this isn't some new product or something that hasn't had a lot of openings. This is packs/box that has a VERY well known sequence and many many videos of packs and boxes being opened.

Drake's box is a great example of how it works. He pulled 3 Jordan's and 3 stickers. Anyone know who they graded?

[SpartanWarrior]

Will Mike Baker be available to certify Steve's statement with a rigorous 10 step process? I want to make sure it's legit.

LOL +1

[YayNJ]

Steve needs to hire a PR manager to filter out these YT peeps. They're using him for clout and the damage is just going to his reputation and business.

Or you know, he could hire people that actually know how to do what it is he sells as a service?

[KhalDrogo]

Not sure what Steve plans on detailing (video access and a breakdown of the full break?) but someone mentioned on the CU forums (https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13310369/#Comment_13310369) that he will be providing another response this weekend.

"Steve will be posting publicly about the box later this weekend with data and details that should clarify a lot of the questions being posed here. It is also important to note that collation anomalies from the factory are not always evident until the packs are opened, especially with wax."
Must be nice to have a job where you can claim you didn’t make an egregious error, it was just a one of a kind factory variant never seen before.

[lseecon]

Which is why BBCE wrap should be held in much lower regard than it is. I can’t even imagine how many bad boxes and cases Steve has wrapped for his buddies over the years.

Probably way less then 1% of all boxes, packs and cases that he has authenticated or wrapped.

Hes not perfect. Dont think he claims he is. PSA is not perfect, dont think they claim they are. Nobody can have a 100% track record in authenticating or weeding out fakes or tampered with products. Fake paintings, fake autographs, fake money, they get by renowned experts too. Fraudsters and criminals are good at what they do. By having an expert review something and give his/her approval, you are hopefully weeding out 99% of the fakes. Will some good fakes slip through, yep, guaranteed.

It comes down to percentages. 99% chance if a box is authenticated by BBCE its going to be clean an untampered with. We never hear about the thousands and thousands of BBCE boxes and packs that are opened and ripped and have no issues whatsoever. But thousands of us have ripped BBCE boxes and they have been fine, go watch youtube also.

If someone on these boards want to start a company or service that can authenticate sealed product with a higher percentage of accuracy than BBCE, then by all means go for it. You will have a very successful company. Probably make a lot of money. However, BBCE has been in the business longer than most of the whiners and complainers have been alive.

If anyone is naive or stupid enough to believe that BBCE or PSA or SGC or Beckett or any other "expert" is 100% accurate all the time, they need to find a new "hobby" or investment.

Its up to the purchasers to decide how much premium to attach to a BBCE wrapped box versus a non BBCE box. I can assure you that despite mistakes that may be made, the market will still pay a premium for a BBCE wrapped box until someone else can assure a higher level of protection.

I dont know Steve or BBCE personally but I have been buying packs, and boxes and ripping packs and boxes long enough to know that BBCE authenticated pack or box has a much higher likelihood of being untampered with than a random pack or box I may buy from ebay or an auction or show

But again, if you dont like BBCE or think they suck, dont buy BBCE wrapped boxes or PSA graded packs.

[mc1]

How about being a man and accepting that he made a mistake?

Instead we get this:

https://c.tenor.com/siKk_EjvS4gAAAAd/duped-we-all-got-duped.gif

Or this:

https://c.tenor.com/DmrW9-x8oS8AAAAM/one-in-a-million-steve-irwin.gif