What’s Worse?

[jhssketchcards]

I’ve thought about asking this question before, and with the revelation lately that one of the games biggest at young stars has been suspended for taking PEDs, I thought now would be a good time.

Is cheating by taking PEDs worse than cheating by stealing signs like the Astros and other teams did?

We all know the Astros saga, and we also know about the other teams that stole signals against league rules, but the Astros capitalized in their efforts winning the WS in 2017. As a lifelong fan of the Astros until that year, I was disappointed, angry and upset. I saw them as frauds, cheats and liars. I got rid of my hats, shirts and other collectibles that commemorated that hollow championship. I lost respect for the team and it’s coaching staff. While I root for new guys there, I still can’t find it in me to cheer in any way for Bregman, Altuve and Gurriel which makes it difficult because their success helps Alvarez and Tucker particularly succeed. Many people across sports have rightly vilified that team and it’s players. MLB players also have shown outrage at them and have shown that by throwing at the players and being vocal to the media. Springer, Correa and Marwin Gonzalez moved on to new teams and were welcomed with open arms. Springer and Correa and cheered by new fans who once blasted them for cheating. Current Astros are booed and hissed at by fans now at opposing stadiums, and are still thrown at and vilified. I do understand the anger believe me I do. They cashed in their scheme to become more wealthy, become celebrities and bigger stars, all the while being frauds, cheats and liars. But if the popular belief is that all teams steal signs (and they do), is it the worst baseball crime?

We all know about the steroid era and how baseball was experiencing a sort of second dead ball era between 1970s and the late 1980s. It wasn’t uncommon for the league leader in HR to hit just north of 30 HR, with occasional 40 HR guys. In the 1980s alone, only Evans, Dawson, Mitchell, Bell, McGwire, Murphy, Armas and Schmidt hit 40 HR. Contrast that with the 199s, where we saw 7 players hit 50+ and another 30+ players hit 40 HR at least once. Many of the players on those leaderboards have either been accused or confirmed PED users. Several of them are HOFers, and most of them are widely collected and still respected. We saw several of them brake records and cash their fame towards stardom and celebrity all the while being frauds, cheats and liars. So if the popular belief is everyone in the league was/is doing it, is it the worst baseball crime?

There are jerks, scumbags and overall bad guys in the HOF. Racists, pricks, criminals, illegal drug users, abusers of women, thieves and scoundrels or all shapes and sizes that have played the game and become stars and even some found the HOF. It seems we are forgiving for some and not for others.
Fernando Tatis Jr is another name in a long list of star baseball players fail PED tests. He is not the first to lie about why he did it, and won’t be the last to do it. Many will vilify him as a cheater, fraud and liar. Many will excuse his behavior because he’s young and immature. Many will gloss over it and still see him as a superstar and potential HOFer. Opinions vary in what’s unforgivable and what isn’t, but cheating is cheating. Right? It is odd to me that pitchers don’t throw at players who get caught cheating considering hitting a HR using PEDs off a pitcher is kin to stealing the signals and doing the same. Both were done amusing an unfair advantage. Is it more acceptable to use PEDs since so many are doing it - sort of a professional courtesy? Not saying I want that, but it is interesting.

It sucks for the game, but then again maybe it IS the game. Cheats, liars, frauds… same as it ever was.


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[Siberian13]

I can’t read

[vinson24]

Im a die hard Astros fan (so no bias at all), but are you talking card values or perception? Altuve’s cards have never been higher in value, though I kind of think the reasoning is because all the information points that he didn’t cheat. Perception is the Astros because it was a lineup cheating which has more weight on a game than a single player and that people hold it against mlb for no suspensions. I mean nobody cares anymore that Frankie Montas popped for PEDs.

[hermanotarjeta]

What’s worse - getting in a car and running over someone who pissed you off or getting drunk and accidentally running over someone you don’t know, killing the person in both instances?

The way I see it, your decisions lead to the same consequences - you took a life.

Cheating is cheating - just because someone gets away with it doesn’t make it right. People get drunk and get behind the wheel all the time.

Sell your Tatis stash, he doesn’t belong in anyone’s collection.

You keep or buy Tatis, you condone cheating.

And people will question your moral compass for doing so, lol. Why you collecting a roider, bro?

[oldgoldy97]

PEDs are fine. Your body, your choice.

[jhssketchcards]

Im a die hard Astros fan (so no bias at all), but are you talking card values or perception? Altuve’s cards have never been higher in value, though I kind of think the reasoning is because all the information points that he didn’t cheat. Perception is the Astros because it was a lineup cheating which has more weight on a game than a single player and that people hold it against mlb for no suspensions. I mean nobody cares anymore that Frankie Montas popped for PEDs.


I’m not speaking of cards at all. I get those are built in to this debate, but my question is about the BM game itself. Altuve is a part of that team, and for whatever reason, didn’t address it outright other than the cookie cutter apology they all gave. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t cheat with the others, but he is culpable being the veteran and star of that team that year. He’s been thrown at ever since, and that’s what I’m speaking of. Why are guys thrown at for cheating one way but not another? Always been curious about that.


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[KhalDrogo]

Astros.

[JRX]

There's no difference unless someone slipped the player peds without their knowledge, they're both intentionally cheating.

[vinson24]

I’m not speaking of cards at all. I get those are built in to this debate, but my question is about the BM game itself. Altuve is a part of that team, and for whatever reason, didn’t address it outright other than the cookie cutter apology they all gave. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t cheat with the others, but he is culpable being the veteran and star of that team that year. He’s been thrown at ever since, and that’s what I’m speaking of. Why are guys thrown at for cheating one way but not another? Always been curious about that.


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How do you know Altuve didn’t address it? And Altuve was the star but Beltran ran the clubhouse that year

[n1nesports]

I'd say cheating by stealing signs and the likes is worse than PEDs, cause with PEDs the pitcher can still outpitch you. The PED user doesn't know what's going to be thrown, they're not intruding on the opposing player's personal space. But with stealing signs you are intruding and that'll piss people off more.

[jhssketchcards]

How do you know Altuve didn’t address it? And Altuve was the star but Beltran ran the clubhouse that year


He could have been more outspoken about it. He could have demanded them stop it as a team or gone to the front office. Did he? We don’t know but it’s unlikely. He was the MVP that year, not a rookie or a guy like Josh Reddick. Beltran didn’t have the power to end lien e without it being given to him as a whole. If Altuve wanted it to stop he could have done more to stop it. He could have come out and said “I had nothing to do with this, I told them to stop it, I told the GM, the manager, the owner”. He never did any of that or it would have come out. He may not have participated like many believe, but he didn’t do much to stop it.


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[jhssketchcards]

I'd say cheating by stealing signs and the likes is worse than PEDs, cause with PEDs the pitcher can still outpitch you. The PED user doesn't know what's going to be thrown, they're not intruding on the opposing player's personal space. But with stealing signs you are intruding and that'll piss people off more.


Good post thanks and good point!


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[OhioLawyerF5]

I'd say from my experience as a baseball player, the single biggest advantage a hitter can have is to know what pitch is coming. So as far as straight outcome on the field, I think stealing signs has a bigger direct impact than steroids.

[pewe]

I'd say cheating by stealing signs and the likes is worse than PEDs, cause with PEDs the pitcher can still outpitch you. The PED user doesn't know what's going to be thrown, they're not intruding on the opposing player's personal space. But with stealing signs you are intruding and that'll piss people off more.

I'd say from my experience as a baseball player, the single biggest advantage a hitter can have is to know what pitch is coming. So as far as straight outcome on the field, I think stealing signs has a bigger direct impact than steroids.



It sounds like you only care if cheating results in better performance?

There is a lot of evidence that the Astros stealing signs made the players’ performance worse, not better… so now you love the Astros???


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[pewe]

I care about the players, and feel horrible about the long term effect and quality of life that playing pro sports has on so many. As PED really damage the players bodies when taken to enhance performance, I’d definitely say PED are far less tolerable to me.


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[Randallk34]

Wait people actually think Altuve didn't cheat LOL

[johnlocke36]

I care about the players, and feel horrible about the long term effect and quality of life that playing pro sports has on so many. As PED really damage the players bodies when taken to enhance performance, I’d definitely say PED are far less tolerable to me.


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This is actually the problem with PED use, there are virtually no long term health consequences associated with taking them correctly and in moderation. You may increase your risk of other injuries, but outside of catching an air bubble or going for the roids/coke caminiti combo nothing is going to happen.

Which leads to the real issue, risk vs reward. Since there is virtually no risk for taking them and the potential rewards are as big as they can possibly get its pretty unreasonable not to take them from a pure analysis of whether or not you should. This is just amplified for young players from poor countries where the opportunities to sign a 6-7 figure contract are being weighed vs the opportunities of making 500 a month or less without baseball.

Now I'm not having a moral or ethical argument here, but simply stating most baseball players at some point in their lives will be faced with the dilemma of whether or not they should take steroids, and for a very large % of them then answer is probably yes they should, and its also the reason a huge % of them do (same as every sport)

[cardsin47]

I find banging on trash cans slightly more vile than a PED user — both are nasty, but effectively stealing signs requires collusion between several people / the needle user acts alone

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Wait people actually think Altuve didn't cheat LOL

Randall, shouldn’t you be in the “ Verlander no-no alert” thread accusing him of taking steroids?

[Randallk34]

Randall, shouldn’t you be in the “ Verlander no-no alert” thread accusing him of taking steroids?



I mean he probably does. Would anyone be surprised if Verlander is cheating in someway?

[pewe]

This is actually the problem with PED use, there are virtually no long term health consequences associated with taking them correctly and in moderation.

I may misunderstand your comment here… but these seem to be incongruent…

I think PED, by definition, requires use incorrectly and not in moderation. And when abused and used consistent with PED goals it’s pretty well documented to badly damage the body.


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[MiamiMarlinsFan]

What’s worse - getting in a car and running over someone who pissed you off or getting drunk and accidentally running over someone you don’t know, killing the person in both instances?

The way I see it, your decisions lead to the same consequences - you took a life.

Cheating is cheating - just because someone gets away with it doesn’t make it right. People get drunk and get behind the wheel all the time.

Sell your Tatis stash, he doesn’t belong in anyone’s collection.

You keep or buy Tatis, you condone cheating.

And people will question your moral compass for doing so, lol. Why you collecting a roider, bro?

If you’re counting any and all forms of cheating as career damning acts that should banish a player from your collection, you’re gonna have a small collection. Read the history books, baseball has been all about trying to get away with cheating since it started. Let’s hope you don’t have any Gaylord Perry in your collection. But I doubt you own any baseball cards, or even like baseball.

[johnlocke36]

I may misunderstand your comment here… but these seem to be incongruent…

I think PED, by definition, requires use incorrectly and not in moderation. And when abused and used consistent with PED goals it’s pretty well documented to badly damage the body.


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I mean cycling on and off properly, nothing will happen to you

[Randallk34]

I mean cycling on and off properly, nothing will happen to you



Pretty naive statement, no?

[JoshMN]

PEDs. Surprised so many people are saying stealing signs.

I look to the Patriots and Tom Brady for a good analogy. Brady and the Pats got caught cheating twice for non-PED rule breaking, but no one cares about that anymore and it won't affect Brady's legacy. Now if Brady had gotten popped for PEDs I think the current perception of him would be much different and his legacy would be tainted.

[pewe]

I mean cycling on and off properly, nothing will happen to you


I’ll let physicians comment on this, but my understanding is the effects on arteries, glands, etc. occurs regardless and is permanent. Specifically when used in volumes to generate PED level benefits (I don’t mean speeding injury recovery… that might be different). These are generally the source of long term health consequences, I believe.


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[JoshMN]

If you’re counting any and all forms of cheating as career damning acts that should banish a player from your collection, you’re gonna have a small collection. Read the history books, baseball has been all about trying to get away with cheating since it started. Let’s hope you don’t have any Gaylord Perry in your collection. But I doubt you own any baseball cards, or even like baseball.

Gaylord is a great example! He's a HOF and revered for the most part, but everyone knows he cheated. Are y'all saying doctoring a ball is not as bad as stealing signs?

[johnlocke36]

Pretty naive statement, no?

sure, and there is probably some level of risk, more so than what I state, but mostly its true. Take baseball, peak steroid users now should be what in the 55-65 age range. How many of them are having serious health consequences as as a result of their steroid use. I'm sure there are some minor leaguers and lesser known players that have but it has to be a tiny fraction compared to the total number of users, and those that are having problems very well may not have use correctly.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

PEDs. Surprised so many people are saying stealing signs.

I look to the Patriots and Tom Brady for a good analogy. Brady and the Pats got caught cheating twice for non-PED rule breaking, but no one cares about that anymore and it won't affect Brady's legacy. Now if Brady had gotten popped for PEDs I think the current perception of him would be much different and his legacy would be tainted.

Yeah, I don’t get it. Stealing signs has been a part of the game since catchers giving pitchers signs was a thing. It’s talked about a few times in the great book, “The Glory of Their Times”.

[hermanotarjeta]

I mean cycling on and off properly, nothing will happen to you

Steroids can cause you to be immune suppressed and make it more likely that you catch an infection, like ringworm.

[pewe]

Steroids can cause you to be immune suppressed and make it more likely that you catch an infection, like ringworm.


Chicken? Or egg???


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[hermanotarjeta]

Chicken? Or egg???


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I’m surprised people don’t find it unusual that a healthy young lad like Tatis caught a ring worm infection from a routine hair cut.

Ringworm infections are much more common in individuals who are immune compromised.

Steroid use makes you immune compromised.

Anyone see the connection now?

[OhioLawyerF5]

It sounds like you only care if cheating results in better performance?

There is a lot of evidence that the Astros stealing signs made the players’ performance worse, not better… so now you love the Astros???


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Um, I guess reading comprehension is hard. But I never said anything like that. All I did was answer the question of which I thought had more impact in a game. I made no statement regarding which I care about or if I support or condemn either type of cheating.

[seanrs1]

I find the BO morality police very interesting. Cheating is cheating (clearly logically correct). Is sign stealing the old fashion way cheating? By BO morality police the answer is yes. Is it still part of the game...yes stealing signs is part of the game. Do BO morality police stop collecting cards of all players on all teams...of course not.

Is some cheating acceptable in baseball? Is some cheating acceptable by BO members that collect cards?

Specifically with Tatis....if his insane story of accidental exposure is true is he still a cheater? According to the BO morality police yes (positive test is a positive test...aka cheating). Is it cheating if unintentional? Is it cheating if he never played a game with the steroid in his system?

These again are questions to make people think. I am a Tatis collector. What will happen to his card prices in the future if he redeems himself....that is a completely different question. Will I still collect Tatis is he story is verified...not sure yet, but probably. Will I collect his cards if he intentionally cheated...not sure about this one. Food for thought. Is it ok to collect cards of a cheater (with no regards to price paid)? Would it be ok to collect cards of an athlete that committed murder?

Is it cheating selling a raw card that you know is nrmt or worse (without specifying its condition)? Or is that merely omitting?

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

I find the BO morality police very interesting. Cheating is cheating (clearly logically correct). Is sign stealing the old fashion way cheating? By BO morality police the answer is yes. Is it still part of the game...yes stealing signs is part of the game. Do BO morality police stop collecting cards of all players on all teams...of course not.

Is some cheating acceptable in baseball? Is some cheating acceptable by BO members that collect cards?

Specifically with Tatis....if his insane story of accidental exposure is true is he still a cheater? According to the BO morality police yes (positive test is a positive test...aka cheating). Is it cheating if unintentional? Is it cheating if he never played a game with the steroid in his system?

These again are questions to make people think. I am a Tatis collector. What will happen to his card prices in the future if he redeems himself....that is a completely different question. Will I still collect Tatis is he story is verified...not sure yet, but probably. Will I collect his cards if he intentionally cheated...not sure about this one. Food for thought.

Sometimes cheating + time = romanticization of the player for the cheating. I don’t thin that will happen for the PEDs guys, but I can see it happening for a guy like Altuve.

[eye4talent]

They’re both wrong, so I don’t know that there is much value in determining the lesser of two evils.

However, I will add the caveat that I’m not as offended by players who dabbled in PEDs but spent the vast majority of their successful careers clean—at least those who played in the steroid era and quickly corrected course.


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[no10pin]

I think for some people, the level of anger towards someone who cheats in any form is based on how they handled being caught.

The Astros were arrogant a-holes about it when everything came out, so most people are going to keep that grudge for awhile. Players who are apologetic and take ownership tend to be forgiven down the road, at least by some.

[pewe]

Um, I guess reading comprehension is hard. But I never said anything like that. All I did was answer the question of which I thought had more impact in a game. I made no statement regarding which I care about or if I support or condemn either type of cheating.


You said stealing signs has a greater “impact on the game”. If you didn’t mean “allows the players to have more successful at bats than they would have otherwise” and thus by implication “enables the team win more than they would have otherwise”… what “impact” did you mean?


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[rms13]

PEDs are fine. Your body, your choice.

This. Everyone is looking for a competitive advantage so the playing field is level. Baseball has so many more problems than players being the best possible version of themselves. I went to my first game in about 10 years a couple of nights ago and I was bored out of my mind. 3+ hours with barely any action. 2 home runs in the game and a bunch of walks and strike outs. There was probably about 2 total minutes of action in the 3+ hours the game took. Everyone in the stands was on their phones trying to stay entertained because the product on the field isn't doing it anymore.

[hermanotarjeta]

This. Everyone is looking for a competitive advantage so the playing field is level. Baseball has so many more problems than players being the best possible version of themselves. I went to my first game in about 10 years a couple of nights ago and I was bored out of my mind. 3+ hours with barely any action. 2 home runs in the game and a bunch of walks and strike outs. There was probably about 2 total minutes of action in the 3+ hours the game took. Everyone in the stands was on their phones trying to stay entertained because the product on the field isn't doing it anymore.

So you are suggesting that MLB should simply allow all forms of cheating - no rules - to make baseball more viewer friendly?

[seanrs1]

So you are suggesting that MLB should simply allow all forms of cheating - no rules - to make baseball more viewer friendly?

Its not cheating if there are no rules.

[BdotHobbs]

I never cared about PEDs before and I don’t care about them now. And I definitely don’t care about sign stealing.

[pewe]

Its not cheating if there are no rules.


How do you know which team wins if there are no rules???


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[hermanotarjeta]

Its not cheating if there are no rules.

Yes, if they allow everything, then MLB turns into WWE.

Sounds fun to me.

[rms13]

So you are suggesting that MLB should simply allow all forms of cheating - no rules - to make baseball more viewer friendly?

Sure there should be rules. There should be rules like no shifts allowed, 20 second pitch count, limit to ammount of pitching changes in an inning etc and rules against other things that hurt the game and make it boring. There shouldn't be rules against ped that enhance the game and make it more exciting

[OhioLawyerF5]

It sounds like you only care if cheating results in better performance?

There is a lot of evidence that the Astros stealing signs made the players’ performance worse, not better… so now you love the Astros???


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You said stealing signs has a greater “impact on the game”. If you didn’t mean “allows the players to have more successful at bats than they would have otherwise” and thus by implication “enables the team win more than they would have otherwise”… what “impact” did you mean?

You can't be serious? You literally accused me of only caring about cheating if the cheating results in better performance. When I made no comment whatsoever about caring. You are interjecting your own ridiculous assumptions to troll for an argument.

[rms13]

I never cared about PEDs before and I don’t care about them now. And I definitely don’t care about sign stealing.

When I played little league in the 80s we were taught to steal signs. It's called gamesmanship

[pewe]

Sure there should be rules. There should be rules like no shifts allowed, 20 second pitch count, limit to ammount of pitching changes in an inning etc and rules against other things that hurt the game and make it boring. There shouldn't be rules against ped that enhance the game and make it more exciting


So, it should be a requirement that players ruin their bodies and die early if they want to play professionally???


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[johnlocke36]

So, it should be a requirement that players ruin their bodies and die early if they want to play professionally???


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name a baseball player that has died early from steroid use (caminiti doesn't count)

[pewe]

You can't be serious? You literally accused me of only caring about cheating if the cheating results in better performance. When I made no comment whatsoever about caring. You are interjecting your own ridiculous assumptions to troll for an argument.

In a thread debating the answer to: "Is cheating by taking PEDs worse than cheating by stealing signs like the Astros and other teams did?"

How would you like the reader to take your comment:

I think stealing signs has a bigger direct impact than steroids

Was your desire:

Dispassionate? Like "Astro's sign stealing has more impact, but don't use that to draw a conclusion because impact has no bearing."

Positive? Like "Astro's sign stealing has more impact, but its completely OK to do."

Other???

[pewe]

name a baseball player that has died early from steroid use (caminiti doesn't count)

Well established negative health effects of PED use somehow don't impact baseball players, uniquely???

[oldgoldy97]

Yes, if they allow everything, then MLB turns into WWE.

Sounds fun to me.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0a/8d/50/0a8d5032e8a6e2498db3e20d53551a30.gif

[oldgoldy97]

name a baseball player that has died early from steroid use (caminiti doesn't count)

Nando’s popularity count?

[johnlocke36]

Well established negative health effects of PED use somehow don't impact baseball players, uniquely???

you suggested that baseball players will die early from steroid use. I just want one example of that happening from the likely set of thousands of steroid users that have played.

[Skipscards]

Perhaps it's a matter of taste. I find both wrong but if I am splitting hairs, I loathe PEDs a lot more than sign stealing. If someone is stealing your signs, make better signs. Also, historically, sign stealing justice is meted by the players on the field.

What sucked about the Astros situation specifically is the MLB handled it wrong and punished the wrong people.

[jhssketchcards]

Perhaps it's a matter of taste. I find both wrong but if I am splitting hairs, I loathe PEDs a lot more than sign stealing. If someone is stealing your signs, make better signs. Also, historically, sign stealing justice is meted by the players on the field.

What sucked about the Astros situation specifically is the MLB handled it wrong and punished the wrong people.


Yep. Completely agree. Those players should have been suspended.


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[pewe]

Perhaps it's a matter of taste. I find both wrong but if I am splitting hairs, I loathe PEDs a lot more than sign stealing. If someone is stealing your signs, make better signs. Also, historically, sign stealing justice is meted by the players on the field.

What sucked about the Astros situation specifically is the MLB handled it wrong and punished the wrong people.


Who should the MLB punish, that got off Scott free?


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[asujbl]

I never cared about PEDs before and I don’t care about them now. And I definitely don’t care about sign stealing.

I like you

[Skipscards]

Who should the MLB punish, that got off Scott free?


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If they were going to punish someone, then punish the players.

[Skipscards]

Yep. Completely agree. Those players should have been suspended.


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Exactly.

[jhssketchcards]

I think for some people, the level of anger towards someone who cheats in any form is based on how they handled being caught.

The Astros were arrogant a-holes about it when everything came out, so most people are going to keep that grudge for awhile. Players who are apologetic and take ownership tend to be forgiven down the road, at least by some.


I consider Tatis lying the way he did about ringworms the same as the Astros being arrogant in their “apologies”. Now we see Tatis come out and say he’s legit sorry. Is he? Maybe. Maybe it’s he’s sorry he got caught. Same with the Astros. I don’t think any of these guys are genuinely sorry because they have enough $$ to forget their discretions. And since the HOF is now putting cheaters in (Ortiz and the others will eventually), why should any of them care? I’d have more respect for a player saying “yeah I did it, big deal. Suspend me. I will be back”, rather than lying then coming clean.


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[pewe]

If they were going to punish someone, then punish the players.

I've wondered about this, too. One thing that occurred to me: receiving and using stolen signs isn't against the rules. And the players weren't the ones doing the illegal sign stealing. I wonder if based on that technicality that they couldn't go after the players... because if they did, MLBPA would file a grievance that would be upheld, which might be an even worse egg on the face of the commissioner/MLB.

[OhioLawyerF5]

In a thread debating the answer to: "Is cheating by taking PEDs worse than cheating by stealing signs like the Astros and other teams did?"

How would you like the reader to take your comment:



Was your desire:

Dispassionate? Like "Astro's sign stealing has more impact, but don't use that to draw a conclusion because impact has no bearing."

Positive? Like "Astro's sign stealing has more impact, but its completely OK to do."

Other???

One more post where you simply don't understand. You literally said "It sounds like you only care if the cheating results in better performance." It doesn't matter whether I'm dispassionate, or positive, or other, because you took my statement of degrees and made it an absolute. You made the logical fallacy that because I said one was worse/had more impact than the other, that I only care about one. And I said nothing of the sort. :doh:

[pewe]

you suggested that baseball players will die early from steroid use. I just want one example of that happening from the likely set of thousands of steroid users that have played.

You are suggesting baseball players are immune from the effects of PED. When you evaluate that list of 1000+ MLB steroid users, is their mortality rate equal to those MLB players who did not use?

[johnlocke36]

You are suggesting baseball players are immune from the effects of PED. When you evaluate that list of 1000+ MLB steroid users, is their mortality rate equal to those MLB players who did not use?

hard to answer that when 100% of the sample is still alive

[hermanotarjeta]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0a/8d/50/0a8d5032e8a6e2498db3e20d53551a30.gif

Announcer: “Next up for the Padres, ‘Nandro Ta-tissssss!!!!!

Tatis: “Wait, but my name in ‘Nand…………”

Announcer: “IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT YOUR NAME IS!”

[pewe]

One more post where you simply don't understand. You literally said "It sounds like you only care if the cheating results in better performance." It doesn't matter whether I'm dispassionate, or positive, or other, because you took my statement of degrees and made it an absolute. You made the logical fallacy that because I said one was worse/had more impact than the other, that I only care about one. And I said nothing of the sort. :doh:

Ok, so you agree: you care that cheating results in better performance (sometimes). And you imply, by posting in this thread that sign stealing improves performance, that you believed the Astro's cheating is worse than PED because it increased their performance more.

So the original question stands: if you discover the cheating didn't improve the Astro's performance, would you consider their cheating less bad than PED use???

[pewe]

hard to answer that when 100% of the sample is still alive

Who are the 1000+ users? And what evidence do you have that they are not impacted by an increased prevalence of disease that is a leading cause of early death?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Ok, so you agree: you care that cheating results in better performance (sometimes). And you imply, by posting in this thread that sign stealing improves performance, that you believed the Astro's cheating is worse than PED because it increased their performance more.

So the original question stands: if you discover the cheating didn't improve the Astro's performance, would you consider their cheating less bad than PED use???

Again, I don't care about the Astros or their cheating. I never mentioned them. I spoke about sign stealing in general as providing a greater advantage to a hitter (and there are far more teams stealing signs than just the Astros). Whether the Astros were able to effectively take advantage of that is a completely different issue.

[rms13]

So, it should be a requirement that players ruin their bodies and die early if they want to play professionally???


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If by ruining their bodies you mean getting stronger and better than sure? And nobody is saying using ped should be a requirement. Working out shouldn't be a requirement, eating an optimal diet shouldn't be a requirement, getting proper sleep shouldn't be a requirement. This is still a free country so everyone should have freedom of choice when it comes to their bodies from what I am told. But if I was a professional athlete I would probably want to do all of the things to maximize my performance and I think 90% of them already are doing that even if some fans want to bury their heads in the sand and be ignorant about it.

[bloodwings19]

MLB will always have someone cheating, endless.

Tuve's having something in his chest to cheat is defamation and character assassination. They never found anything on him, yet someone created this firestorm. Tuve could of sued whoever came up with the ridiculous theory. If he really cheated, more people would of spoke up yet we haven't found anyone. F@#$# Altuve is f@#$# up.

[jwilson6204]

Wait people actually think Altuve didn't cheat LOL

On a lineup full of cheaters we may never know. Someone actually listened to all the regular season games and kept track of the trash can bangs. It appears that Altuve, Tony Kemp and Josh Reddick were not participating. There were bangs noted in some of Altuve's at bats, but it was significantly lower than the others. There is also video of Altuve looking back pissed off after hearing a bang. (Not sure if the EVP of Trash Can Banging was actually keeping track of who was at bat.)

Many believe Jonboy's report that Altuve was wearing a buzzer. However, Fiers didn't note any buzzers and the investigation didn't uncover use of buzzers despite giving the players full immunity (of which they admitted to all the other cheating). Over 20 players who played at some point during 2017 have moved onto other teams and none of them have reported use of buzzers. There is a rumor that Baseball is using Altuve's buzzer system for the pitchers and catchers now (I might have just made that up). :)

Altuve hasn't done himself any favors by choosing to stay quite on the topic. Correa and others have come out in his defense that he didn't cheat, but it's probably too late for his legacy.

[christhecpa]

PEDs. Surprised so many people are saying stealing signs.

I look to the Patriots and Tom Brady for a good analogy. Brady and the Pats got caught cheating twice for non-PED rule breaking, but no one cares about that anymore and it won't affect Brady's legacy. Now if Brady had gotten popped for PEDs I think the current perception of him would be much different and his legacy would be tainted.

Is it not hypocritical to support Brady and not Tatis when they are both guilty of deflating balls?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Is it not hypocritical to support Brady and not Tatis when they are both guilty of deflating balls?

Welp, this thread is over and we have a winner. :)!

[JoshMN]

Is it not hypocritical to support Brady and not Tatis when they are both guilty of deflating balls?

Great comment! Lol. Perhaps people distinguish the manual deflation vs. the deflation based on chemical use. Plus, Brady was not even in the same room as his balls when they were deflated.

[pewe]

If by ruining their bodies you mean getting stronger and better than sure? And nobody is saying using ped should be a requirement. Working out shouldn't be a requirement, eating an optimal diet shouldn't be a requirement, getting proper sleep shouldn't be a requirement. This is still a free country so everyone should have freedom of choice when it comes to their bodies from what I am told. But if I was a professional athlete I would probably want to do all of the things to maximize my performance and I think 90% of them already are doing that even if some fans want to bury their heads in the sand and be ignorant about it.

If you can't make the league without using PED, then it becomes an unstated requirement. So the question remains: should players be forced to ruin their bodies to play? And break the law as a requirement to play?

This is the ethical question that the league and physicians are faced with. Currently they fall on the side of the players' health.

[Randallk34]

you suggested that baseball players will die early from steroid use. I just want one example of that happening from the likely set of thousands of steroid users that have played.



You're acting as not dying early from steroid use means that they dont do damage to your body and can harm you in ways other then resulting in an early death.

You can smoke cigarettes and live till you're 95 without getting lung cancer. Doesn't mean you haven't hurt yourself in other ways, like shortness of breath from walking 3 feet or a face that looks like a wrinkled catchers mitt. But hey, you're not going to die early, so smoke away.



""My tendons and ligaments got all torn up," Caminiti told CNNSI. "My muscles got too strong for my tendons and ligaments. And now my body's not producing testosterone. You know what that's like? You get lethargic. You get depressed. It's terrible.""

Here you go, steroid related, not his death but his body was damaged. Is this worth 300 million dollars? Maybe. But to act as if roids don't have long term damage is naive and stupid.

[Randallk34]

On a lineup full of cheaters we may never know. Someone actually listened to all the regular season games and kept track of the trash can bangs. It appears that Altuve, Tony Kemp and Josh Reddick were not participating. There were bangs noted in some of Altuve's at bats, but it was significantly lower than the others. There is also video of Altuve looking back pissed off after hearing a bang. (Not sure if the EVP of Trash Can Banging was actually keeping track of who was at bat.)

Many believe Jonboy's report that Altuve was wearing a buzzer. However, Fiers didn't note any buzzers and the investigation didn't uncover use of buzzers despite giving the players full immunity (of which they admitted to all the other cheating). Over 20 players who played at some point during 2017 have moved onto other teams and none of them have reported use of buzzers. There is a rumor that Baseball is using Altuve's buzzer system for the pitchers and catchers now (I might have just made that up). :)

Altuve hasn't done himself any favors by choosing to stay quite on the topic. Correa and others have come out in his defense that he didn't cheat, but it's probably too late for his legacy.





He cheated dude. Even if this is true and he didn't partake, he still cheated with the team. Only way he didn't cheat is if this took place behind his back and he was 100% in the dark about what his teammates were doing and that's simply not the case. He's a cheater and everyone on that team that knew is a cheater as well. The team benefited from knowingly breaking the rules, they are cheats.

[Skipscards]

I've wondered about this, too. One thing that occurred to me: receiving and using stolen signs isn't against the rules. And the players weren't the ones doing the illegal sign stealing. I wonder if based on that technicality that they couldn't go after the players... because if they did, MLBPA would file a grievance that would be upheld, which might be an even worse egg on the face of the commissioner/MLB.

Actually, while stealing signs is not illegal, using technology to do so is and has been. In the early 21st Century, MLB even issued a memo to all teams that use of electronic equipment to steal signs was illegal.

But again, I'm not against stealing signs. I think stealing signs is an art and good for any player or team that cracks the code and uses it to their advantage. But the Astros players used technology and should have been appropriately punished.

[rms13]

If you can't make the league without using PED, then it becomes an unstated requirement. So the question remains: should players be forced to ruin their bodies to play? And break the law as a requirement to play?

This is the ethical question that the league and physicians are faced with. Currently they fall on the side of the players' health.

Who is ruining their bodies and breaking the law? Without all of the facts you're just talking out of your you know what. Without knowing exactly what every professional athlete is taking you are just speculating. A lot of steroids are legal when prescribed by doctors. There is an entire industry for hormone replacement doctors that do just that for anyone with money to pay for it. A lot current PED trends are using peptides and other substances that aren't illegal in the United States and aren't on MLB banned substance list. So there are a lot of PED that players are taking that aren't tested for or banned and have similar or better results than old fashion steroids that have been used for the past 90 years. And there are medical exemptions for banned substances if players have them prescribed by a doctor and every professional athlete in the United States has more than enough money to pay a doctor to prescribe them. So it's pretty ignorant to think that most players aren't using some sort of PED.

And that doesn't even address your repeated comment about players ruining their bodies. Please explain how they are ruining their bodies by using substances that enhance their bodies?

[johnlocke36]

You're acting as not dying early from steroid use means that they dont do damage to your body and can harm you in ways other then resulting in an early death.

You can smoke cigarettes and live till you're 95 without getting lung cancer. Doesn't mean you haven't hurt yourself in other ways, like shortness of breath from walking 3 feet or a face that looks like a wrinkled catchers mitt. But hey, you're not going to die early, so smoke away.



""My tendons and ligaments got all torn up," Caminiti told CNNSI. "My muscles got too strong for my tendons and ligaments. And now my body's not producing testosterone. You know what that's like? You get lethargic. You get depressed. It's terrible.""

Here you go, steroid related, not his death but his body was damaged. Is this worth 300 million dollars? Maybe. But to act as if roids don't have long term damage is naive and stupid.

There are def health consequences don't get me wrong, and you like said they are prob worth 300 million, but more importantly they are wroth 300,000 when the alternative is $200 a month for the rest of your life.

It's also no secret that getting absolutely huge in not always a plus from baseball and it hurts flexibility increases injury etc so baseball players that juice are going to be doing it far differently and have far less health consequences then say body builders where I imagine heart attacks and other deaths in the mid 40's is somewhat common.

I know Winstrol/Stanozolol was the most common when I played and you wouldn't look like a freakish body builder when taking it. But it was also important to stretch and workout the small muscle groups as well. You also generally took a testoerone supplement with it to prevent what Caminiti was describing. So while I won't deny any if the problems he had, its also very possible he had these problems from not using them correctly/using them to much (6 weeks on 6 weeks off, cycling etc). Current day, I have 0 clue of what the current steroid lanscape looks like or if they are better or worse for your body

[rms13]

There are def health consequences don't get me wrong, and you like said they are prob worth 300 million, but more importantly they are wroth 300,000 when the alternative is $200 a month for the rest of your life.

It's also no secret that getting absolutely huge in not always a plus from baseball and it hurts flexibility increases injury etc so baseball players that juice are going to be doing it far differently and have far less health consequences then say body builders where I imagine heart attacks and other deaths in the mid 40's is somewhat common.

I know Winstrol/Stanozolol was the most common when I played and you wouldn't look like a freakish body builder when taking it. But it was also important to stretch and workout the small muscle groups as well. You also generally took a testoerone supplement with it to prevent what Caminiti was describing. So while I won't deny any if the problems he had, its also very possible he had these problems from not using them correctly/using them to much (6 weeks on 6 weeks off, cycling etc). Current day, I have 0 clue of what the current steroid lanscape looks like or if they are better or worse for your body

That is a more educated answer. Living in poverty definitely has more long term health consequences than using steroids. Bodybuilders probably have worse consequences than other people using steroids due to the doses many of them use but even in that world it's not like 90% are dropping dead in their 30s and 40s, it's like maybe 5 high profile cases I've heard of in the past 40 years. Most reasonable doctors will tell you that the ones that died early have more to do with the fact that they were walking around at 300 lbs when not competing and doing zero cardio exercise most of the year because that takes away from muscle gains. Arnold is 75 and used a boatload of steroids from the 60s through the 90s and he's definitely still using but probably at a lower dose and he looks great for 75. Almost every steroid has therapeutic use and when they are used at reasonable doses under the care of doctor where you are getting regular blood work to monitor your levels it's probably safer than eating a standard American diet your entire life.

But I would still like to see a list of professional athletes who have died directly from PED use or had their bodies ruined by PEDs? I can't think of anyone other than Lyle Alzado who died of brain cancer which he attributed to steroid use but that has been debunked since then and I don't think you will find one doctor who will say now that steroid use had any link to his cancer. When you think of all of the athletes who have used steroids since their inception in the 1930s until now and how many have had a truly negative outcome that can be factually attributed to steroids is probably about .001 % of the people that used them.

[vegetable]

What’s worse - getting in a car and running over someone who pissed you off or getting drunk and accidentally running over someone you don’t know, killing the person in both instances?

The way I see it, your decisions lead to the same consequences - you took a life.

Cheating is cheating - just because someone gets away with it doesn’t make it right. People get drunk and get behind the wheel all the time.

Sell your Tatis stash, he doesn’t belong in anyone’s collection.

You keep or buy Tatis, you condone cheating.

And people will question your moral compass for doing so, lol. Why you collecting a roider, bro?

It's not that serious.

[n1nesports]

It sounds like you only care if cheating results in better performance?
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OP asked which we consider worse, for me it's sign stealing, it's like getting a glimpse into the future.

I was wondering something, if the league said players were allowed to use PED's, would you (and anyone else reading this) still consider it cheating?

[pewe]

Actually, while stealing signs is not illegal, using technology to do so is and has been. In the early 21st Century, MLB even issued a memo to all teams that use of electronic equipment to steal signs was illegal.

But again, I'm not against stealing signs. I think stealing signs is an art and good for any player or team that cracks the code and uses it to their advantage. But the Astros players used technology and should have been appropriately punished.


What I’ve been wondering is the nuance: perhaps the issue the league and MLBPA ran into is the players weren’t the ones who used the tech to steal the signs. Thus technically the players didn’t break any rules.


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[pewe]

OP asked which we consider worse, for me it's sign stealing, it's like getting a glimpse into the future.

I was wondering something, if the league said players were allowed to use PED's, would you (and anyone else reading this) still consider it cheating?


Personally? I’d definitely still be hugely against PED, even if the league turned a blind eye. Essentially the repeat of the 90s scandal all over again.

Would be interesting if the general public consensus remains the same as back then: fans expect clean players and like to believe in “natural hard work delivered performance”.


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[jhssketchcards]

So how many of you are ok with what Tatis did? Is it a big deal or just another part of the game and it’s just accepted all players do it?


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[johnlocke36]

So how many of you are ok with what Tatis did? Is it a big deal or just another part of the game and it’s just accepted all players do it?


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no big deal, assumed he was juicing before the positive test so all it really confirms is that he's an idiot.

[rms13]

no big deal, assumed he was juicing before the positive test so all it really confirms is that he's an idiot.

That's my biggest concern with Tatis is that he's an idiot. It's not that hard for him to be doing what he was doing without getting caught.

[n1nesports]

Personally? I’d definitely still be hugely against PED, even if the league turned a blind eye. Essentially the repeat of the 90s scandal all over again.

What about it would you be against? Is it the pressure it would put on the guys who don't want to use PED's that would bother you? Or just a matter of it being an "unnatural" way to alter their physical makeup?

[rms13]

OP asked which we consider worse, for me it's sign stealing, it's like getting a glimpse into the future.

I was wondering something, if the league said players were allowed to use PED's, would you (and anyone else reading this) still consider it cheating?

Stealing signs has been part of the game since it's inception. It was one of the first things I was taught in little league 40 years ago. Our coaches told us how to read other team's signs and how to relay them back to the hitter and bench. That's why teams use a bunch of methods like indicators to mask they signs to confuse the other team because they know everyone is watching and trying to steal them.

[johnlocke36]

Stealing signs has been part of the game since it's inception. It was one of the first things I was taught in little league 40 years ago. Our coaches told us how to read other team's signs and how to relay them back to the hitter and bench. That's why teams use a bunch of methods like indicators to mask they signs to confuse the other team because they know everyone is watching and trying to steal them.

Cheating or not? Daughter plays high school softball and its pretty common for teams to call pitches and locations by calling out numbers and stuff. I can crack this with a simple computer program in like an inning. same thing for indicators but tough to get big enough sample size if they change inning by inning.

[hxcmilkshake]

Cheating or not? Daughter plays high school softball and its pretty common for teams to call pitches and locations by calling out numbers and stuff. I can crack this with a simple computer program in like an inning. same thing for indicators but tough to get big enough sample size if they change inning by inning.No technology. I think I've been pretty clear on this point with you. Banned.

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[JoshMN]

Cheating or not? Daughter plays high school softball and its pretty common for teams to call pitches and locations by calling out numbers and stuff. I can crack this with a simple computer program in like an inning. same thing for indicators but tough to get big enough sample size if they change inning by inning.

Would be cheating under the MLB rules, but only if you use the computer. If you can figure their signs out in your head: not cheating.

[Danderlion]

PED use for sure

[base set]

Well with sign stealing, the question is moot now anyway with the comm system in the pitcher’s cap. I suppose that could be hacked but the consequences of getting caught would be enormous. MLB was successful at settling a precedent there, I think.

Also sign stealing has more of a team benefit than an individual benefit, whereas PED use is more individualistic though good individual production helps a team. But the benefits & goals aren’t quite the same.

We could probably just have one big ole Steroids Thread that mentions David Ortiz, greenies, A-Rod, Bonds, and now Tatis, by decree at least once per page of responses. Whenever conversations veer to PEDs, take it to the ‘roids thread.

I would want to ask such a thread this. It is routinely stated in these threads that PED testing is stupid, we should just let the athletes roll with them, etc., etc.

My question is - let’s say a good, strictly secret ballot vote were to be held, amongst only current members of MLBPA, on this question: should MLB allow players to use PEDs?

I think such a vote would lose.

[jhssketchcards]

Another question for those who condone PEDs… are you ok if HS kids age 16-17 take them? College? I mean if the league were to allow them shouldn’t baseball players of a certain age be able to take them if they are high level players? Of course I know states have rules in their associations but it’s hypothetical. If PEDs aren’t harming these guys, then surely kids could take them.


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[Stifle]

That is a more educated answer. Living in poverty definitely has more long term health consequences than using steroids. Bodybuilders probably have worse consequences than other people using steroids due to the doses many of them use but even in that world it's not like 90% are dropping dead in their 30s and 40s, it's like maybe 5 high profile cases I've heard of in the past 40 years. Most reasonable doctors will tell you that the ones that died early have more to do with the fact that they were walking around at 300 lbs when not competing and doing zero cardio exercise most of the year because that takes away from muscle gains. Arnold is 75 and used a boatload of steroids from the 60s through the 90s and he's definitely still using but probably at a lower dose and he looks great for 75. Almost every steroid has therapeutic use and when they are used at reasonable doses under the care of doctor where you are getting regular blood work to monitor your levels it's probably safer than eating a standard American diet your entire life.

But I would still like to see a list of professional athletes who have died directly from PED use or had their bodies ruined by PEDs? I can't think of anyone other than Lyle Alzado who died of brain cancer which he attributed to steroid use but that has been debunked since then and I don't think you will find one doctor who will say now that steroid use had any link to his cancer. When you think of all of the athletes who have used steroids since their inception in the 1930s until now and how many have had a truly negative outcome that can be factually attributed to steroids is probably about .001 % of the people that used them.

It amazes me how many members are oblivious to use vs abuse. Using steroids doesn’t equate to going Mandarich, whom I’ve heard took 6 Anadrol a day, a horse steroid. Mandarich to my knowledge is still well. Some of the abusers would “stack” up on multiple roids. What these people hear when a abuser dies is that they utilized roids but it’s amazing how many also used harsh drugs like heroine, etc.

People die from pain killers all the time, drinking to much water, eating food that is total crap, etc. Steroids are utilized all the time for all of us but it’s in regulated doses. Children with stunted growth, eye drops, etc. So many people would be shocked if they realized what they had utilized had roids.

[johnlocke36]

Another question for those who condone PEDs… are you ok if HS kids age 16-17 take them? College? I mean if the league were to allow them shouldn’t baseball players of a certain age be able to take them if they are high level players? Of course I know states have rules in their associations but it’s hypothetical. If PEDs aren’t harming these guys, then surely kids could take them.


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First off nobody is condoning PED use, in a perfect world nobody takes steroids. But in the real world that just not how it works and if a massive amount of people are using them you will likely have 2 options (take steroids or retire) and have to weight the risks of each. Sure there are plenty of god gifted athletes that can get by on their own talent but there is a massive sample of people that will get left behind by even skilled people using.


As to the kids question, IDK how to answer. Ideally kids would not take them at all (I'd assume there are more health risks associated with bodies that are not fulyl developed and also the are more likely to be stupid about it) but again the reality is that kids (high school) do take them, a lot. In college, everyone takes them (or at least did, I assume they still do but no idea)

It also depends on what you qualify as a steroid also. In high school almost everyone was taking something that would have caused them to fail a lot of drug tests. Some kids were just taking ephedrine (prob more likely to kill you then steroids), most were taking some type of andro product and some were stacking the real stuff. We had at least one kid that took a ton of steroids in high school and he had a pretty decent mlb career, shrug.

It's also very tough to say what constitutes "cheating" Did the guy that used needles cheat and the guy who took andro didn't, did one guy cheat more. Should the one guy that misread a label from a supplement at GNC be grouped together with Bonds and HGH guys.

[Stifle]

I’m not speaking of cards at all. I get those are built in to this debate, but my question is about the BM game itself. Altuve is a part of that team, and for whatever reason, didn’t address it outright other than the cookie cutter apology they all gave. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t cheat with the others, but he is culpable being the veteran and star of that team that year. He’s been thrown at ever since, and that’s what I’m speaking of. Why are guys thrown at for cheating one way but not another? Always been curious about that.


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The problem is simple. Why have different character standards for different levels of those involved within the game? Members so bent on punishing the clowns but allowing those who created the circus to not share equal accountability. You really believe the steroid era had all the owners being oblivious to what was occurring, no GM’s hinting that there could be users, please, ignorance is only bliss to a certain degree.

As far as being voted into the HOF. When every group within the game has the ability to be voted in, then each group should have the same character clause that could keep them out of the HOF. The executives have the ability to pay off their “cheating” while players are banned. Those in the game should share equal accountability, for or against the game.

[fabiani12333]

There is a big difference between illegal sign stealing and relaying and PED use. Illegal sign stealing and relaying is much worse.

The OP is presenting a few false assumptions. The first one is that sign stealing is cheating and what the Astros had done that was wrong. What really happened was they used technology to decode and relay signs -- which is expressly forbidden in the rule book. They did it in the postseason. They likely caused Clayton Kershaw to give up a million runs in a World Series start.

The second false assumption is that PEDs were the reason why there were a lot more home runs in the 90s. It has been proven that the baseballs MLB used became juiced in the mid 90s when the home run rate suddenly spiked. It is not possible that the home run spike would have been caused by sudden, simultaneous, widespread PED use -- that theory is just ignorant and illogical.

Getting back to the OP's question -- illegal sign stealing is worse because it is a form of in-game cheating which directly impacts the outcome of a given game. A player's ability may be raised by PED use, but it doesn't allow them to know what pitch is coming while at the plate -- only theoretically improves their chances of being successful.

The main benefit of PEDs is their ability to improve stamina and recovery and make players more consistent. It doesn't suddenly give a player ESP to know what pitch is coming.

[Skipscards]

What I’ve been wondering is the nuance: perhaps the issue the league and MLBPA ran into is the players weren’t the ones who used the tech to steal the signs. Thus technically the players didn’t break any rules.


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You’re absolutely right about nuance. And maybe. I seem to remember debate about buzzers. But regardless, the Commissioner can always use the best interests of baseball clause. It gives him the authority and he didn’t use it because, you know, the World Series trophy is just a piece of metal.

[fabiani12333]

What’s worse - getting in a car and running over someone who pissed you off or getting drunk and accidentally running over someone you don’t know, killing the person in both instances?

The way I see it, your decisions lead to the same consequences - you took a life.

Cheating is cheating - just because someone gets away with it doesn’t make it right. People get drunk and get behind the wheel all the time.

Sell your Tatis stash, he doesn’t belong in anyone’s collection.

You keep or buy Tatis, you condone cheating.

And people will question your moral compass for doing so, lol. Why you collecting a roider, bro?

I collect Barry Bonds and I consider myself a moral person. The reason why I am fine with it is because I know from research that PED use and other forms of cheating have existed in MLB for generations. It has been a staple of the game -- not an aberration.

How quickly have we forgotten the widespread use of sticky stuff for pitchers. It is literally cheating and against the rules. Do I suddenly think MLB is a brothel? Lol no. It's an entertainment product that needs better policing from the league.

Prior to the widespread use of steroids in MLB, amphetamines were readily available in MLB clubhouses before a game. Amphetamines are a potent PED. Somehow ignorant fools and disingenuous hypocrites distinguish greenies from steroids. They're both potent PEDs!

Sign

[fabiani12333]

I care about the players, and feel horrible about the long term effect and quality of life that playing pro sports has on so many. As PED really damage the players bodies when taken to enhance performance, I’d definitely say PED are far less tolerable to me.


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Your logical is backwards. If you care about and want to prioritize the long term health of athletes, letting them use PEDs would be the moral thing to do.

PEDs increase stamina and durability and help athletes avoid wear and tear to their bodies. Why do you think steroid users were able to play into their late 30s and early 40s? Because PEDs kept them healthy and strong.

And taking PEDs in moderation does not cause long term health problems. They may actually extend life.

[fabiani12333]

I may misunderstand your comment here… but these seem to be incongruent…

I think PED, by definition, requires use incorrectly and not in moderation. And when abused and used consistent with PED goals it’s pretty well documented to badly damage the body.


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Many PEDs are legal with prescription.

Amphetamines are given to people diagnosed with ADHD.

Not all PEDs are the same. Some particularly potent anabolic steroids can cause health problems when used for extended periods.

[majestik101]

To me, cheating by stealing signs like the Astros is worse because it is a selfishly collective effort

[fabiani12333]

Perhaps it's a matter of taste. I find both wrong but if I am splitting hairs, I loathe PEDs a lot more than sign stealing. If someone is stealing your signs, make better signs. Also, historically, sign stealing justice is meted by the players on the field.

What sucked about the Astros situation specifically is the MLB handled it wrong and punished the wrong people.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you don't seem to know or remember what the Astros were accused of. They used video and computer technology to decode signs and relay them in real time. That is a big no-no in MLB. Players stealing and relaying signs is not against the rules and has been a long tradition in MLB.

[matt roberson]

I don't really care about either, the sport is continuing to evolve and as fans we have to evolve with it.

If I had to choose I would say stealing signs is worse because it can give you a distinct advantage as a team that can translate into victories.

But stealing signs is as old as the game itself, and with the new communication tech between pitchers and catchers is a thing of the past, so I'm back to indifferent.

"kids" should not be allowed to use steroids until MILB, IMO can effect their gene expression to much prior to their early twenties when their hormones are naturally un balanced.

Kind of like other bad things we have decided as a society it is okay to do, there should be a legal age, and I would put that at 21-22yoa.

[Skipscards]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you don't seem to know or remember what the Astros were accused of. They used video and computer technology to decode signs and relay them in real time. That is a big no-no in MLB. Players stealing and relaying signs is not against the rules and has been a long tradition in MLB.

Most people don’t have to try to be a jerk and saying that is like saying “with all due respect” as if that is giving you permission to be disrespectful. But don’t worry about it, I’m not taking what you’re saying as being a jerk. You are just mistaken. I do know and remember what the Astros were accused of. I just hate what PEDs did to the game more.

[fabiani12333]

You're acting as not dying early from steroid use means that they dont do damage to your body and can harm you in ways other then resulting in an early death.

You can smoke cigarettes and live till you're 95 without getting lung cancer. Doesn't mean you haven't hurt yourself in other ways, like shortness of breath from walking 3 feet or a face that looks like a wrinkled catchers mitt. But hey, you're not going to die early, so smoke away.



""My tendons and ligaments got all torn up," Caminiti told CNNSI. "My muscles got too strong for my tendons and ligaments. And now my body's not producing testosterone. You know what that's like? You get lethargic. You get depressed. It's terrible.""

Here you go, steroid related, not his death but his body was damaged. Is this worth 300 million dollars? Maybe. But to act as if roids don't have long term damage is naive and stupid.

Literally playing an MLB season is unhealthy for players. All the repetitive, forceful movements and extended play causes damage to players' joints, tendons and ligaments. It is not natural for the human arm to throw mid-90s fastballs overhand. It is not normal for catchers to be in a squat for hours every game.

Caminiti abused and overused steroids. He played most of the 1996 season, his MVP season, with a torn rotator cuff.

[fabiani12333]

Personally? I’d definitely still be hugely against PED, even if the league turned a blind eye. Essentially the repeat of the 90s scandal all over again.

Would be interesting if the general public consensus remains the same as back then: fans expect clean players and like to believe in “natural hard work delivered performance”.


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Even without PEDs, MLB is far from natural. Digital data, analytics, computer technology, software, algorithms, wearables, simulations etc all dominate the game. The strategy and approaches of the modern game are largely technology driven -- not human driven.

[jhssketchcards]

There is a big difference between illegal sign stealing and relaying and PED use. Illegal sign stealing and relaying is much worse.

The OP is presenting a few false assumptions. The first one is that sign stealing is cheating and what the Astros had done that was wrong. What really happened was they used technology to decode and relay signs -- which is expressly forbidden in the rule book. They did it in the postseason. They likely caused Clayton Kershaw to give up a million runs in a World Series start.

The second false assumption is that PEDs were the reason why there were a lot more home runs in the 90s. It has been proven that the baseballs MLB used became juiced in the mid 90s when the home run rate suddenly spiked. It is not possible that the home run spike would have been caused by sudden, simultaneous, widespread PED use -- that theory is just ignorant and illogical.

Getting back to the OP's question -- illegal sign stealing is worse because it is a form of in-game cheating which directly impacts the outcome of a given game. A player's ability may be raised by PED use, but it doesn't allow them to know what pitch is coming while at the plate -- only theoretically improves their chances of being successful.

The main benefit of PEDs is their ability to improve stamina and recovery and make players more consistent. It doesn't suddenly give a player ESP to know what pitch is coming.


To your point about the Astros: I totally agree that sign stealing itself is not the baseball crime they committed. I u sweat and that using the electronic tech to do it and then relaying them to their hitters via bangs in a trash can is. I am in no way asserting that stealing signs in a regular way is wrong, as many lint out it’s a competitive skill that’s as old as the game. I also believe they were completely wrong to do it the WAY they did it, not THAT they did it.
I’m also not naive to think they were the only my ones to have done it, it’s just they did it better than anyone else because they capitalized it into a WS ring. This is why their players are despised and thrown at, and the why the known cheats like Red Sox, Yankees players are not - because they sucked at it and couldn’t win it all.

As far as PEDs in the 1990s, it doesn’t take much digging to find the links between HR totals rising as a result of PEDs in the game. Canseco outlined it, the Mitchell report broke it down, and yes MLB, I believe, knew about it AND used altered baseballs.
I remember when hitting over 40 HR became a big deal in the MLB in the 80s again. It was a rare thing in the 70s and not many did it in the 80s until McGwire came along as a rookie and did it, breaking the rookie season mark. Coincidence he played with Canseco, an admitted user? I don’t think so. Was it pervasive on those A’s WS teams? Who knows, but I doubt Terry Steinbach and Carney Lansford were roiding. Cecil Fielder became the first player to hit 50 HR in over 10 years. Until then, he was a player who by MLB standards, wasn’t capable of staying in an MLB roster. His best MLB season he hit 14 HR, then goes to Japan and POOF he’s a monster. Was it PEDs? We don’t know, but it set off a decade that saw players hit 50 or more HR 13 times…
Mark McGwire 4x
Sammy Sosa 3x
Ken Griffey Jr 2x
Albert Belle 1x
Brady Anderson 1x
Greg Vaughn 1x
Cecil Fielder 1x

Maybe in the 1990s it was the juiced ball, but if that’s true how is it “clean” guys like Ripken, Puckett, Bonds (I believe he didn’t start juicing until 1999-2000) Thomas, etc didn’t hit 50+ at least 1 time? If it was the ball, then surely these mashers would have benefited ala Fielder, Greg Vaughn, Brady Anderson. Heck, in 1998 alone we saw 13 players hit 30 or more HR with 8 of them being linked or guilty of PEDs. Clearly something besides the ball was being juiced.

In contrast…
The 1960s saw 2 players hit 50 HR, Maria and Mantle in the same season, with Maris hitting 61.
The 1970s saw 1 player hit 50 HR, George Foster.
The 1980s saw zero players hit 50, McGwire came the closest in 1987 with 49.


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[SyrNy1960]

Whether right or wrong, PEDs will continue to be an issue. Cheating, or getting an edge has always been in MLB and other sports for years and years. Not all, but players will do what they feel they need to do in order to be the best that they can be, including when injured, if it will help them recover quickly. It is their livelihood. Doesn't make it right, but it's reality and life.

How many of you have cheated in one way or another in your life? Cheated in school, getting that grade you know you didn't earn on your own. Cheated in your job, so you can get ahead and make more money? None of us are perfect, including myself.

I sometimes wonder when people look in the mirror, do they really see themselves for who they are? It's so easy to judge others, when they don't know what you have done in your life.

The biggest thing that pisses me off from the steroid error is, everyone (MLB, teams, media, players, fans, and collectors) all knew it was going on, and was enjoying and benefiting from it. Once it became an issue, everyone turned their back on those players they were cheering for and let them take the fall and continue to do so today.

[jhssketchcards]

Whether right or wrong, PEDs will continue to be an issue. Cheating, or getting an edge has always been in MLB and other sports for years and years. Not all, but players will do what they feel they need to do in order to be the best that they can be, including when injured, if it will help them recover quickly. It is their livelihood. Doesn't make it right, but it's reality and life.

How many of you have cheated in one way or another in your life? Cheated in school, getting that grade you know you didn't earn on your own. Cheated in your job, so you can get ahead and make more money? None of us are perfect, including myself.

I sometimes wonder when people look in the mirror, do they really see themselves for who they are? It's so easy to judge others, when they don't know what you have done in your life.

The biggest thing that pisses me off from the steroid error is, everyone (MLB, teams, media, players, fans, and collectors) all knew it was going on, and was enjoying and benefiting from it. Once it became an issue, everyone turned their back on those players they were cheering for and let them take the fall and continue to do so today.


Very good post. Thanks for the excellent take. You are 100% right about the vast numbers enjoying it and benefiting from it. I think what was once “everyone knew it” has morphed into “guys are bigger stronger and faster than ever before”. I’m sure that was the initial thought in the 1990s, until 13 players hit 40+ HR in 1998 alone, with three hitting 50+ and two of those hitting 60+ (McGwire of course had 71). Both times the ATR for HR in a season was broken by known PED users. But I’m sure they were at one time just bigger, stronger and faster.


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[pewe]

What about it would you be against? Is it the pressure it would put on the guys who don't want to use PED's that would bother you? Or just a matter of it being an "unnatural" way to alter their physical makeup?


Those… and perhaps the romantic ideal that sport is physical natural ability, hard work, and grit. Combined with a soap opera of intellect guile and strategist superiority.


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[jhssketchcards]

I was thinking about kids and how we feel about them using PEDs/supplements. I have 4 boys, 13, 14, 16 and 18. Three play varsity soccer, 1 plays football also and runs track, and one playing just basketball.
My HS kids all take protein supplements and my football player takes mass gainer in the off-season. The 3 in HS lift and are in great shape. My 13 yr old works out and does push ups and sit-ups. Along with cardio and other agility exercises. I won’t let him start lifting until he’s 14. I was at the Dr yesterday because my 14 yr old (turns 15 in Oct), was complaining about his neck and shoulders (he was in the car accident with me and his 18 yr old brother back in Dec), so I wanted to make sure nothing major was going on. After X-rays we’re done, and an exam, the Dr said he’s ok, just some normal growing pains. He showed me his growth plates and the space he has in his joints, indicating he’s not close to done growing. After soccer season last Feb, he was 5’5” 130 and he’s now 5’11” 160.
I can’t help but question the authenticity of many who say kids shouldn’t take PEDs yet the same may allow their kid to pitch 20-30 games a year in travel baseball, throw breaking pitches from ages 10-16, and play year round. We see the impact that’s having on so many HS kids having TJ and rotator cuff surgeries before they are 18 and high level prospects having the same surgeries not long into their MLB debut or just before it. The same can be said for year round basketball, softball or even for junior high level kids lifting heavy and playing football where concussions are a huge part of injuries for young kids (also of note I was surprised that more concussions happen in soccer then football in youth sports).
On one hand we are saying “kids shouldn’t take PEDs because they are harmful, and I agree, yet how many people encourage their son to throw massive amounts of innings and harmful pitches during travel baseball? How many encourage their kids to hit hard and “stick em” in youth football knowing concussions and other injuries are possible? Is it a risk/reward thought? I do that myself believing injuries are possible, but I try to make sure my kids are in the safest way possible playing such sports. I personally don’t let my kids play the same sport year round, rather encourage them to play different sports if they want, or not and rest/workout for the next season. Clearly though, I think we all believe kids a certain age shouldn’t take PEDs but the vast majority have no issues with kids hurling 80-100+ innings a year at young ages while their arms are ticking time bombs. A kid my son plays FB with broke his arm while also playing summer baseball.
He’s a pitcher on the HS team, a junior, and plays baseball from late fall-summer. He was pitching in a game and his UCL tore away from his arm and broke the bone at the same time. He’s out for a while not just in baseball. When I talked to his PT (also mine) he said he’s played travel baseball since he was 9 and pitched since then and started throwing curves at 10. PEDs are bad for kids no doubt, but there are other dangerous methodologies parents are ok with as long as velo and college/pro scouts take a look.
What price are willing to accept for our kids?

They see Tatis, a flamboyant, exciting and entertaining pro athlete succeed and make huge money. They see him in the video games, the commercials, the broadcasts as the “face of the game”. They hear his name, emulate his stance or style, and mimic his moves. He’s a superstar or stars. He’s not much older than they are and they live him. But then the veil is lifted and he’s exposed as a fraud, cheat and liar. He’s dishonest about his motive and people lie for him, defend him and excuse him. Others chide him, berate him and abandon their fandom of him. Same for the Astros.

It’s clear many are willing to test the water of cheating and push the boundaries whether it be PEDs or using prohibited methods to gain an advantage in the game. Either way, the bigger issue isn’t cheating, its what is being represented to the younger kids watching their stars fall. Are they human? Yes. Do we all make mistakes? Yes. But pro athletes are in a position they chose to be in that says “watch me and see what I can do better than anyone”. They do so knowing many kids are watching and aspire to do it. But when they do it fraudulently, and it’s defended and excused, that dishonest behavior could possibly plant a seed in our kids minds that says “if they did it that way, I can too”.


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[pewe]

Your logical is backwards. If you care about and want to prioritize the long term health of athletes, letting them use PEDs would be the moral thing to do.

PEDs increase stamina and durability and help athletes avoid wear and tear to their bodies. Why do you think steroid users were able to play into their late 30s and early 40s? Because PEDs kept them healthy and strong.

And taking PEDs in moderation does not cause long term health problems. They may actually extend life.

I can't tell if this was serious, or tongue in cheek... definitely comedy gold either way!

[pewe]

Even without PEDs, MLB is far from natural. Digital data, analytics, computer technology, software, algorithms, wearables, simulations etc all dominate the game. The strategy and approaches of the modern game are largely technology driven -- not human driven.

Technology is not driven by humans???

[christhecpa]

I personally refuse to support any player who uses eyeglasses or contacts. Keen vision is important to an athlete and I refuse to give credit to anyone who uses vision enhancers.

[pewe]

I personally refuse to support any player who uses eyeglasses or contacts. Keen vision is important to an athlete and I refuse to give credit to anyone who uses vision enhancers.

Lasik is cool, though??? Just like fighter pilots. I like it

[SyrNy1960]

I personally refuse to support any player who uses eyeglasses or contacts. Keen vision is important to an athlete and I refuse to give credit to anyone who uses vision enhancers.

Now that’s funny! Thanks for making my day!

[fabiani12333]

I can't tell if this was serious, or tongue in cheek... definitely comedy gold either way!

You don't seem interested in acknowledging the positive health benefits of PEDs -- only the possible negatives.

PEDs help athletes perform. They help them stay on the field playing. That means specifically being strong and healthy.

The claims of long-term health problems are unfounded:
Most athletes dope for short-term gain, but what are the long-term implications of using these drugs? From a health perspective, the verdict is unclear. As listed above, all doping drugs have potential immediate or short-term side-effects and drawbacks, but scientists are still researching the longer-term effects they may have on the body. Some studies have found evidence of early mortality due to cancer or heart attack amongst previous long-term users of PEDs, but these are inconclusive as other factors such as lifestyle, and genetics may also be responsible. Part of the difficulty is in finding athletes who would agree to participate in such a study.
https://www.science.org.au/curious/people-medicine/drugs-sport

[fabiani12333]

Technology is not driven by humans???

The technology is created by humans. But the technology does the work humans can't do. They do it more efficiently and effectively. They are ... wait for it ... a performance enhancer.

[fabiani12333]

To your point about the Astros: I totally agree that sign stealing itself is not the baseball crime they committed. I u sweat and that using the electronic tech to do it and then relaying them to their hitters via bangs in a trash can is. I am in no way asserting that stealing signs in a regular way is wrong, as many lint out it’s a competitive skill that’s as old as the game. I also believe they were completely wrong to do it the WAY they did it, not THAT they did it.
I’m also not naive to think they were the only my ones to have done it, it’s just they did it better than anyone else because they capitalized it into a WS ring. This is why their players are despised and thrown at, and the why the known cheats like Red Sox, Yankees players are not - because they sucked at it and couldn’t win it all.

As far as PEDs in the 1990s, it doesn’t take much digging to find the links between HR totals rising as a result of PEDs in the game. Canseco outlined it, the Mitchell report broke it down, and yes MLB, I believe, knew about it AND used altered baseballs.
I remember when hitting over 40 HR became a big deal in the MLB in the 80s again. It was a rare thing in the 70s and not many did it in the 80s until McGwire came along as a rookie and did it, breaking the rookie season mark. Coincidence he played with Canseco, an admitted user? I don’t think so. Was it pervasive on those A’s WS teams? Who knows, but I doubt Terry Steinbach and Carney Lansford were roiding. Cecil Fielder became the first player to hit 50 HR in over 10 years. Until then, he was a player who by MLB standards, wasn’t capable of staying in an MLB roster. His best MLB season he hit 14 HR, then goes to Japan and POOF he’s a monster. Was it PEDs? We don’t know, but it set off a decade that saw players hit 50 or more HR 13 times…
Mark McGwire 4x
Sammy Sosa 3x
Ken Griffey Jr 2x
Albert Belle 1x
Brady Anderson 1x
Greg Vaughn 1x
Cecil Fielder 1x

Maybe in the 1990s it was the juiced ball, but if that’s true how is it “clean” guys like Ripken, Puckett, Bonds (I believe he didn’t start juicing until 1999-2000) Thomas, etc didn’t hit 50+ at least 1 time? If it was the ball, then surely these mashers would have benefited ala Fielder, Greg Vaughn, Brady Anderson. Heck, in 1998 alone we saw 13 players hit 30 or more HR with 8 of them being linked or guilty of PEDs. Clearly something besides the ball was being juiced.

In contrast…
The 1960s saw 2 players hit 50 HR, Maria and Mantle in the same season, with Maris hitting 61.
The 1970s saw 1 player hit 50 HR, George Foster.
The 1980s saw zero players hit 50, McGwire came the closest in 1987 with 49.


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You're focusing on the extreme outliers -- namely McGwire and Sosa. Their home run rates no-doubt benefitted from believed PED use.

But the home run rate spiked starting in 1993, well before McGwire and Sosa hit 50 home runs:

1993: Juiced players or juiced ball?

Runs per game: up 0.48

Home runs per game: up 0.17

In a two-year span, runs per game went from 4.12 to 4.60 to 4.92. Home runs per game increased from 0.72 to 0.89 to 1.03. Yes, the Rockies joined the National League in 1993, helping to create more offense, but that alone hardly explains a half-run per game increase. Indeed, the American League -- without games in Colorado -- went from 4.32 runs to 4.71 to 5.23. No doubt, PED use was starting to spread across the sport, but the PED theory assumes the unlikelihood that everyone started using all at once.

So it was the ball. Something changed in the 1992-93 offseason. The full impact was felt more intensely over two seasons, but some of the individual increases in 1993 were dramatic

In 1994, things went completely nuts:

When the strike hit in August, Matt Williams (43), Griffey (40), Jeff Bagwell (39) and Frank Thomas (38) were trying to chase down Roger Maris' record of 61 home runs.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/26960922/the-history-juiced-balls-how-today-home-run-binge-fits-in

[pewe]

The technology is created by humans. But the technology does the work humans can't do. They do it more efficiently and effectively. They are ... wait for it ... a performance enhancer.


The beauty is those tech pieces fall within the idealistic view of the game: no physical enhancement, and demonstrate the intellectual and strategic edge of what makes humans human - the brains of the game.


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[pewe]

You don't seem interested in acknowledging the positive health benefits of PEDs -- only the possible negatives.

PEDs help athletes perform. They help them stay on the field playing. That means specifically being strong and healthy.

The claims of long-term health problems are unfounded:

https://www.science.org.au/curious/people-medicine/drugs-sport


Thank you! Nice how this article summarizes the significant negative health effects. We should point back to it for any doubters in this thread.


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[fabiani12333]

The beauty is those tech pieces fall within the idealistic view of the game: no physical enhancement, and demonstrate the intellectual and strategic edge of what makes humans human - the brains of the game.


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MLB teams literally print out little positioning cards and scouting reports generated by modern technology that is used by players and coaches during games. The data is telling players how to play while they are on the field of play. Players are not thinking for themselves in those instances.

[pewe]

MLB teams literally print out little positioning cards and scouting reports generated by modern technology that is used by players and coaches during games. The data is telling players how to play while they are on the field of play. Players are not thinking for themselves in those instances.


Ahhh! I see our difference in opinion: I consider the coaches, analytics team, and front office decision making/strategy to part of the team. And the players’ “game time smarts” critical to effective situational play.

Sounds like you don’t believe either of these to be true




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[Randallk34]

MLB teams literally print out little positioning cards and scouting reports generated by modern technology that is used by players and coaches during games. The data is telling players how to play while they are on the field of play. Players are not thinking for themselves in those instances.



Middle infielders wearing the pitchcom, so lame