What if Lebron James played for Cleveland his whole career?

[Arianny_Fan]

Idk if this was ever asked, but what if Lebron James played for Cleveland Cavs his whole career? Let's just say he won 2 rings instead of 4, cause we all know he had a hell of a time winning that 1 against Golden State. All other statistics stay the same. Would his cards, memorabilia, etc. Be worth the same, more, or the same as it is in its current state?

[KhalDrogo]

The answer is obviously yes.

Going back to Cleveland and winning in the fashion he did was one of the most remarkable accomplishments in sports history. Then he decided to throw it all away.

[rhigh2390]

Yes. Players that stayed with 1 franchise their entire career are always regarded higher than guys that jump around.

[Arianny_Fan]

We can all wonder how many championships Lebron would or wouldn't have if he never left the Cavs in the first place.

[ninjacookies]

aDdOnl0bHO4

[hermanotarjeta]

I would have respected him more had he stayed on the Cavs his whole career.

He wouldn't have the following monkeys haunting his career:

-the decision
-super team poser
-Hollywood James
-disney half-ring

But he would still have been:

-LeChoke
-LeFlop
-LeBrick

and his Cavs teams would never have any lottery picks because he would make the playoffs every year and lose most of his games, so they would never have a chance to improve.

No other superstars would even think about joining him in Cleveland.

He would be the Karl Malone with a single ring of this generation. Superb individual stats. Very few rings.

[TheFrenzy]

It definitely would have brought him closer to Dirk- and Kobe-level greatness.

Sadly he chose himself over the city that loved him.

[SupermanBrandon]

He would be respected more. I think he might be the softest SUPERSTAR we’ve ever seen. He ran from the battle in search of an easier path.


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[rhigh2390]

He would be respected more. I think he might be the softest SUPERSTAR we’ve ever seen. He ran from the battle in search of an easier path.


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Definitely agree here. He would have never had the narrative of "chasing titles" if he stayed the whole time. His "haters" would have much less ammo to use against him. I think many more people would unanimously include him in the top 2-5 GOATs.

[90sbasketballin]

Would he be respected more? Yes
But LeBron knows what really matters when playing this game - His legacy.

I think we, as fans, tend to care so much about the storyline and what sounds good rather than understand the reality of the situation. Yes, LeBron is originally from Akron, Ohio. And yes, he left his hometown team, but looking back, can you really blame him? The guy played 7 years of elite basketball in Cleveland before leaving, knowing that management will never set him up with the right tools needed to win. Zydrunas Ilgauskas? Mo Williams? Anderson Varejao?


We're seeing this with Damian Lillard right now. "Not running from the grind" will only make his legacy similar to any star who never won anything - somewhat forgettable. But most fans wouldn't frown on Damian Lillard leaving the Blazers at the moment. And soon enough, we'll be seeing it from Luka Doncic if the Mavs don't surround him with the right pieces.

Regardless of where LeBron went, he was the leader who took every one of his respective teams to the promise land against ELITE talent. All his championships have been won against the Top 1-20 talent of ALL TIME, whether that be Duncan, KD, Curry, etc.

[Nomad]

I dont know, we really counting zombie covid season in this exalted realm?

[Hellcat]

^^^worth half a title he has 3.5. His old bones greatly benefited with a 3 month break in the middle of the season along with brittle Davis.

[Kingofkings1281]

It’s been at least a week since the last LeBron hate thread. I’m surprised at that level of restraint being shown here haha

[GOATcards]

The hypothetical, to be taken literally, has to assume basically that Bron wouldn't be the person that he is, that the Cavs management were differently talented, that the structure of the NBA were different, that this more-competitive-than-ever era wasn't what it is.

The Bron-bashers are intellectually lazy people who make such bad arguments that it's hard to believe they really are sincere/honest/genuine about them, because they're just flat-out stupid and people don't like to think of themselves as stupid. What the bashing-arguments are really about is some feeling they have about Bron that they're trying to rationalize and that includes gaslighting all of basketball fandom if they have to.

Players get into the game to win championships as their highest career goal. And so they take whatever steps necessary to do that. Bron obviously had garbage for support in his first stint in Cleveland.

Michael Jordan was drafted to a team that just happened to be in Chicago - a large market - and with quality management and some fortunate lottery picks. If you put Bron in a similar situation it's not hard to imagine him carrying teams to several championships. This is a fact that the bashers have to dishonestly ignore. That's my nice, family-friendly way of describing these creatures.

The superteam era began more or less when KG went to the Celtics, evidently because he was getting trash for support in the MN smaller-market. More power to KG. That just ramped up an arms race. Bron wasn't going to get past the Celtics with the trash support/management.

KD had a comparable situation in the OKC small market, his closest shot at winning a championship before going to GSW was the '16 WCF and it wasn't the OKC team that retained James Harden who by '16 was a perennial MVP candidate. Russ wasn't reliable enough support to get OKC past GSW.

It's patently obvious that getting chips in this era, with that many more teams and that many more international players, is as difficult as ever. It might very well mean that Joker doesn't end up with chips even though he's quite clearly the most valuable overall player these past 3 seasons (something that could be said about very few players in NBA history). It isn't like Denver's among the biggest markets either.

Good on Bron for ditching a mediocre franchise so that he could attain what the players come to the league to attain. He did get one final chip with the Lakers, front-ending a team with a pre-Glass AD, then squandered future chances with dumb personnel decisions he pushed on the franchise. One chip in LA is what he'll end up with there. His '16 Finals performance speaks for itself, and of course he never stood a chance against the Curry-KD super-superteam as any smart person would have told you. (The '19 Raptors benefitted from KD's injury, and would have won whether it was with Kawhi or with Bron.) His Heat were the only team to beat Duncan's Spurs in the Finals. He had no support in the '15 Finals (Dellavedova? Mozgof? AYFKM) and was clearly the most valuable player in that series.

His '11 Finals meltdown, and his notorious flopping antics, are the only thing that any serious rational person would hold against him.

Bron showed what a top-3 all-time player could accomplish with decent support in an ever-more-competitive era: 4 championship rings, 4 finals MVPs. The haters have psychological issues which they should go deal with on their own time without polluting the enjoyment of smarter, less hateful basketball fans with idiotic dishonest ridiculous hypocritical time-wasting arguments.

https://i.imgur.com/KLzGqfs.gif

Go watch the Cancel Court (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU7VkeUPxaw) or the Crowley videos if you have serious questions at this point.

[Hellcat]

LeBum wins no titles without a super team or team jumping. He’s that bad. He’s a choke,not clutch by any stretch,horrible free throw shooter,average defender. His FG% is respectable because of all the lay-ups and dunks. He has no mid-range he does a lot of things good but nothing great. I still have him on Mount Rushmore because of his longevity that’s worth something. His work ethic and dedication to the game is lacking not on par with MJ and Kobe. He will never be considered the GOAT so as soon as you STUPID LeBum worshipers realize this the better it will be around here. Don’t try to throw some nerd stats up here either watch the games MJ and Kobe are far more talented and gifted athletes.

[gameissued]

I don't think being a Cavalier forever would increase any value. Nothing wrong with changing teams, especially if it's a team like the Cavs. LoL, blowout forum never fails. Any mention of LeBron and you will get LeBron hate from same folks with the same comments. Y'all have at it while you can cause he's going to become the all time undisputed points leader any day now! Not only will he break it, he will absolutely shatter it when it's all said and done. While MJ will likely fall out of the top 10 in a few seasons. The best player discussion always starts with points. Not saying it's the most important or tells the whole story, but it's always starts there.

[rhigh2390]

I don't think being a Cavalier forever would increase any value. Nothing wrong with changing teams, especially if it's a team like the Cavs. LoL, blowout forum never fails. Any mention of LeBron and you will get LeBron hate from same folks with the same comments. Y'all have at it while you can cause he's going to become the all time undisputed points leader any day now! Not only will he break it, he will absolutely shatter it when it's all said and done. While MJ will likely fall out of the top 10 in a few seasons. The best player discussion always starts with points. Not saying it's the most important or tells the whole story, but it's always starts there.

It seems to have never started with points. MJ has been considered the goat for 30 years while having never been even in the top 2 in total points. The points thing is nice, but I've never heard of anyone make an argument for someone because of their standing in all-time points. It's a longevity stat. You never hear a case of Dirk or Malone being a top 6 player even though they are top 6 in points. Loyal Kobe fans will make a case for him, but his all time points are rarely even brought up. Lebron fans will of course use it in their argument because of his blemishes in other areas, but it was rarely brought up before. Not at all saying though that it isn't impressive... Just disagree that the best player discussion always starts with points.


Also, how is MJ falling out of the top 10 in "a few seasons"? Lol The only guy that may pass him in the next several years is KD, and that's if he stays healthy.

[Kingofkings1281]

LeBum wins no titles without a super team or team jumping. He’s that bad. He’s a choke,not clutch by any stretch,horrible free throw shooter,average defender. His FG% is respectable because of all the lay-ups and dunks. He has no mid-range he does a lot of things good but nothing great. I still have him on Mount Rushmore because of his longevity that’s worth something. His work ethic and dedication to the game is lacking not on par with MJ and Kobe. He will never be considered the GOAT so as soon as you STUPID LeBum worshipers realize this the better it will be around here. Don’t try to throw some nerd stats up here either watch the games MJ and Kobe are far more talented and gifted athletes.

Dear lord, this might be the worst post in this history of this website. Either that or it’s one hell of a troll.

[PLB9eight]

Dear lord, this might be the worst post in this history of this website. Either that or it’s one hell of a troll.


Consider the source


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[wood minis]

I doubt LeBron gets the one ring if he stays with Cleveland his whole career.

[pingbling23]

I voted no. Lebron haters have always found their reasons to hate and will do so no matter what. Be it super team hate (the league already had stacked teams and lebron teams have never consistently been the favorites in the finals. He made it competitive, not unfair), bubble title (a silly argument. All teams were able to get healthy and well rested before going into one of the toughest post season setups in league history). As we’ve seen on this forum the haters will use anything. Crack head teammates sleeping with his mom, ugly feet, receding hairline, raising money for local charities for one of the biggest sports stories ever, we’ve seen it all. If he stayed in Cleveland and won maybe 1 ring he would be looked at as an underachiever and someone that didn’t care about winning, just building his stats. Do we want to compare his path in the league to players such as magic, bird, Jordan,Kobe and even curry. All players that started off in a good spot that lead to team success. Out of those select players mj has the best argument but so much went right with the organization to succeed but obviously mj being the goat was a major reason. Making four franchises (cavs x2, heat, and Lakers) contenders and winning 4 titles is amazing and will always support lebrons legacy. Imagine swapping him for Kobe and lebron has prime shaq, laker franchise support, Phil Jackson, etc for his entire career. He wouldn’t have ran Shaq off, probably averages 12 assists for most of his career, and wins 5-7 titles reasonably. There’s so much more then just being a good player that goes into winning titles in the nba. What would joker do if you swap him and Duncan’s nba path? The hype did amazing things for lebrons collectibility, the back to back titles sent him higher, the cavs title even more, and then proving he could do it in the west (even at an old age) just cemented it all. Maybe he manages one or two more. He can be the most dangerous number 2 in the league for another 2-4 season probably.

[oldgoldy97]

Yes. Players that stayed with 1 franchise their entire career are always regarded higher than guys that jump around.

Like MJ. And does forcing yourself out of a situation count as a team?

[hermanotarjeta]

All the Bron boulder holders burned their Cavs jerseys a long time ago, then bought new Cavs jerseys years later, then bought a Mickey Mouse laker jersey and are praying somehow they make the playoffs this year on his greatness alone. Or is it no one can be expected to will a team to the playoffs by themselves, less the NBA title? Oh wait, it’s points that matters, not winning rings. Who cares about making the playoffs, you gotta check out the next flick I’m in.

Bron bois need to check in with their shrinks again, methinks a medication adjustment is needed.

[rats60]

He would be respected more. I think he might be the softest SUPERSTAR we’ve ever seen. He ran from the battle in search of an easier path.


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The softest after Steph Curry. You have the best regular season in history and choke in the Finals. So, you recruit the best player in the NBA to join your team? Even LeBron's "The Decision" can't top that.

In my opinion his cards would be less. He would have struggled to win even one ring. The Cavs had the best record in the NBA in 2009 and 2010 and didn't even make the finals. Who would he have been able to get to join him in Cleveland? The Cavs don't draft Kyrie. Could they have traded for Love? Doubtful.

He still has a great career, but he is Elgin Baylor (no rings) or Oscar Robertson (1 ring). LeBron's cards really took off after his 3rd ring and that doesn't happen without LeBron jumping from team to team.

[pingbling23]

All the Bron boulder holders burned their Cavs jerseys a long time ago, then bought new Cavs jerseys years later, then bought a Mickey Mouse laker jersey and are praying somehow they make the playoffs this year on his greatness alone. Or is it no one can be expected to will a team to the playoffs by themselves, less the NBA title? Oh wait, it’s points that matters, not winning rings. Who cares about making the playoffs, you gotta check out the next flick I’m in.

Bron bois need to check in with their shrinks again, methinks a medication adjustment is needed.
Seems like Lebron haters are making a big deal about the playoffs, not his boulder holders. Kobe didn’t his last 4 seasons and mj didn’t his last 2. When you’re old/past your prime and don’t have a healthy and/or good supporting cast post seasons and titles are hard to come by. It was well documented on here after the AD trade that the lakers window for titles was one season past their championship year due to their roster contract structure and trade value/draft pick situation going forward (you know the year they were poised to beat the wcf winner/suns until AD went down). Lakers have done a pretty good job putting a team together that would have been competitive if they had a league average health outlook. Injuries to Lebron and AD made sure the window shut hard. It is what it is.

[HeyRelaxGuy]

I'm doubt LeBron gets the one ring if he stays with Cleveland his whole career.

^^^ This^^^

LBJ won a title with the CAVS only because he left them in the first place! Him leaving got them top picks (Kyrie and Wiggins - traded for Kevin Love). So, all the pieces were in place to win and all LBJ had to do was return. If LBJ had stayed with the CAVS his whole career, then here is how many NBA titles he would have today: ZERO!

So, my answer is NO. If LBJ remained a CAV his whole career, then his collectibles would be worth less.

[rats60]

It seems to have never started with points. MJ has been considered the goat for 30 years while having never been even in the top 2 in total points. The points thing is nice, but I've never heard of anyone make an argument for someone because of their standing in all-time points. It's a longevity stat. You never hear a case of Dirk or Malone being a top 6 player even though they are top 6 in points. Loyal Kobe fans will make a case for him, but his all time points are rarely even brought up. Lebron fans will of course use it in their argument because of his blemishes in other areas, but it was rarely brought up before. Not at all saying though that it isn't impressive... Just disagree that the best player discussion always starts with points.


Also, how is MJ falling out of the top 10 in "a few seasons"? Lol The only guy that may pass him in the next several years is KD, and that's if he stays healthy.

That is a huge part of the argument for Kareem along with his MVPs. It would be same argument for LeBron with the points record and MVPs. Kareem has 6 rings but he was the best player on the team for only two of them.

Before Kareem broke Wilt's record, Kareem was never in the discussion for GOAT. It was Wilt Chamberlain vs Bill Russell. The all time scoring record is definitely a factor.

With Jordan, he broke Wilt's record for points per game. Having the highest scoring average countered the number of points scored by #11 and #17 on that list. Jordan was 1st in PPG and 3rd in points. LeBron being 5th and essentially tied with 4 guys for 3rd and having the scoring record is a much stronger argument than Kareem having the record was.

[GOATcards]

LeBum wins no titles without a super team or team jumping. He’s that bad. He’s a choke,not clutch by any stretch,horrible free throw shooter,average defender. His FG% is respectable because of all the lay-ups and dunks. He has no mid-range he does a lot of things good but nothing great. I still have him on Mount Rushmore because of his longevity that’s worth something. His work ethic and dedication to the game is lacking not on par with MJ and Kobe. He will never be considered the GOAT so as soon as you STUPID LeBum worshipers realize this the better it will be around here. Don’t try to throw some nerd stats up here either watch the games MJ and Kobe are far more talented and gifted athletes.

i didn't make myself clear enough :doh:

[GOATcards]

LeBum wins no titles without a super team or team jumping. He’s that bad. He’s a choke,not clutch by any stretch,horrible free throw shooter,average defender. His FG% is respectable because of all the lay-ups and dunks. He has no mid-range he does a lot of things good but nothing great. I still have him on Mount Rushmore because of his longevity that’s worth something. His work ethic and dedication to the game is lacking not on par with MJ and Kobe. He will never be considered the GOAT so as soon as you STUPID LeBum worshipers realize this the better it will be around here. Don’t try to throw some nerd stats up here either watch the games MJ and Kobe are far more talented and gifted athletes.

just be a deadbeat and say sorry i wasn't listening

[SupermanBrandon]

Points means less and less these days. At the clip that these guys are scoring these days, you can’t compare that to even 20 years ago. It’s never been easier to score in the NBA, as it is today.


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[GOATcards]

With Jordan, he broke Wilt's record for points per game. Having the highest scoring average countered the number of points scored by #11 and #17 on that list. Jordan was 1st in PPG and 3rd in points. LeBron being 5th and essentially tied with 4 guys for 3rd and having the scoring record is a much stronger argument than Kareem having the record was.

nobody knows who #11 and #17 on the list are, you win the obscurity olympics.

MJ had 10 scoring titles, proving he's the best/greatest scorer of all time.

Nonetheless, someone asked recently if the all-time scoring record is the most important official career stat record, and I can't really think of anything close. Bron's gonna smash it, if his career runs an ordinary course (https://www.google.com/search?q=bill+james+favorite+toy) for a 38 year old NBA superstar lol

He's pulling way out ahead in career VORP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career.html) even if you credit Kareem for a full additional 40 VORP through the '73 season. He's more than 15% ahead even then, even as no one gets more than 10 VORP in a season since 2013. You basically have to give MJ imaginary credit for his nearly 5 in-career retirement years, Ted-Williams-war-years-style, to make it a contest. (Just for fun, add 45 on top of his 116, so imagine he's at 161. Pretty GOATy I guess. 161 x the customary 2.7 wins per VORP, that's like a lot.)

[GOATcards]

Points means less and less these days. At the clip that these guys are scoring these days, you can’t compare that to even 20 years ago. It’s never been easier to score in the NBA, as it is today.


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that can easily be checked
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

MJ won his last scoring title with a 28.7 average.

And outscored the rest of his team with 45 points in his last Finals game (only time that's happened, or so someone at RealGM claims without rebuttal).

https://i.imgur.com/51uLx7v.png

[GOATcards]

inflation-adjust for league-wide scoring levels, and it looks like Bron's real scoring is ahead of Kareem's by maybe 5-10% even with the marked inflation of the last few years.

Now inflation-adjust for MJ whose value is more scoring-weighted than Bron's, and you get 10 scoring titles.

[rats60]

nobody knows who #11 and #17 on the list are, you win the obscurity olympics.

MJ had 10 scoring titles, proving he's the best/greatest scorer of all time.

Nonetheless, someone asked recently if the all-time scoring record is the most important official career stat record, and I can't really think of anything close. Bron's gonna smash it, if his career runs an ordinary course (https://www.google.com/search?q=bill+james+favorite+toy) for a 38 year old NBA superstar lol

He's pulling way out ahead in career VORP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career.html) even if you credit Kareem for a full additional 40 VORP through the '73 season. He's more than 15% ahead even then, even as no one gets more than 10 VORP in a season since 2013. You basically have to give MJ imaginary credit for his nearly 5 in-career retirement years, Ted-Williams-war-years-style, to make it a contest. (Just for fun, add 45 on top of his 116, so imagine he's at 161. Pretty GOATy I guess. 161 x the customary 2.7 wins per VORP, that's like a lot.)

I guess that you don't follow the NBA. #11 in PPG is Karl Malone. #17 in PPG is Kareem Abdul Jabbar. However, your ignorance proves my point. Those two guys scored a lot of points by playing a lot of games, not by being the best scorers. Kareem 2 scoring titles early in his career, Karl 0.

[hermanotarjeta]

Wait a minute.

Bron almond huggers demand:

1. Bron has played with NOBODY in the past and can carry his team to the finals, yet, he currently plays with NOBODY, yet he can’t even carry his team to the expanded playoffs?

2. Bron is so good now he is better than 99.9% of the players in the league who are half his age, yet, he is too old to carry his current team to the playoffs.

What kind of wacky multiverse are Bron pecan cuddlers living in? He must be the GOAT because he can be TOO good and TOO bad simultaneously.

[GOATcards]

I guess that you don't follow the NBA. #11 in PPG is Karl Malone. #17 in PPG is Kareem Abdul Jabbar. However, your ignorance proves my point. Those two guys scored a lot of points by playing a lot of games, not by being the best scorers. Kareem 2 scoring titles early in his career, Karl 0.

I'm ignorant beyond #'s 1 and 2 on the list. Jerry West is 3rd I think?

I'm probably ignorant because raw scoring averages, not adjusting for inflation, don't tell me a whole lot. 10 or 7 scoring titles would tell me more.

There should be inflation-adjusted scoring leaderboards, for PPG and career, so we really know what's what. Adjust for a neutral 100-PPG context, and then for competition levels. Then we'll see, then we'll see

[GOATcards]

Wait a minute.

Bron almond huggers demand:

1. Bron has played with NOBODY in the past and can carry his team to the finals, yet, he currently plays with NOBODY, yet he can’t even carry his team to the expanded playoffs?

2. Bron is so good now he is better than 99.9% of the players in the league who are half his age, yet, he is too old to carry his current team to the playoffs.

What kind of wacky multiverse are Bron pecan cuddlers living in? He must be the GOAT because he can be TOO good and TOO bad simultaneously.

it's like imaginary bron fans believe imaginary contradictory things, you wrestle with that in your head as long as you need to

[HeyRelaxGuy]

https://media.tenor.com/l5sIE_3H3EEAAAAC/cats-fighting-fighting-cats.gif

[GOATcards]

silver tabbies are the best