Luka’s darling status

[NotOriginal]

Disclaimer: I like Luka, and I own his cards.

I think most people will agree that Lukas card prices relative to other players is still quite a bit inflated.

My prediction is that Wemby will knock Luka off the “darling” status. (Unless Luka wins rings in the next two seasons)

No one can retain that young, golden boy spot forever.

[PKIPP]

Disclaimer: I like Luka, and I own his cards.

I think most people will agree that Lukas card prices relative to other players is still quite a bit inflated.

My prediction is that Wemby will knock Luka off the “darling” status. (Unless Luka wins rings in the next two seasons)

No one can retain that young, golden boy spot forever.


I don’t think Wemby will effect Luka’s standing in the hobby. There’s room for more than one.


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[Makakilo Cards]

If anyone knocks him off his darling status, it'll be Kyrie.

[hermanotarjeta]

I’d love to see a dark, brooding Luka with an attitude.

He’d make an excellent face turned heel in the NBA.

[davidantx]

he's the best player in the NBA bar none, and Darling status is well deserved.

[ninjacookies]

he's the best player in the NBA bar none, and Darling status is well deserved.

Until he dual wields MVP's and hoists an O'Brien, this guy may have something to say about that.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/LMPoJJ7m1nxlRbswAt/200w.gif?cid=82a1493b1l2znwl86db264y8hvv2ewkgstjnnmz3y7umpe11&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

Absolutely the best player from the 25 and under group though.


Wimbledon will unequivocally command a massive frenzy of prospector funds...probably the most since fatboi. But as PK stated, there's enough @sportscardinvestor moolah to go around for everybody.

[GOATcards]

Lulu Darling
(any pics with him in a purty pink dress or something)

[tjforce]

Until he dual wields MVP's and hoists an O'Brien, this guy may have something to say about that.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/LMPoJJ7m1nxlRbswAt/200w.gif?cid=82a1493b1l2znwl86db264y8hvv2ewkgstjnnmz3y7umpe11&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

Absolutely the best player from the 25 and under group though.



Absolutely.

The only player that drops Luka from his darling status is Luka.

And what I mean by that is that he has this year and next to either win a title or start winning MVPs. The year after that the pressure really gets on him.

After that the whispers get louder and louder. He'll be 24 in 3 days. A lot of NBA greats didn't have a ring or MVP by 24. But if he gets to the point where he's past 26 and still doesn't have anything to show for it, then that's where each year is another one of the clock ticking down.

[Brobocop]

Until he dual wields MVP's and hoists an O'Brien, this guy may have something to say about that.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/LMPoJJ7m1nxlRbswAt/200w.gif?cid=82a1493b1l2znwl86db264y8hvv2ewkgstjnnmz3y7umpe11&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

Absolutely the best player from the 25 and under group though.


Wimbledon will unequivocally command a massive frenzy of prospector funds...probably the most since fatboi. But as PK stated, there's enough @sportscardinvestor moolah to go around for everybody.

Why does Wemby scare me in terms of putting any money into him? His build is like the opposite of Zion yet I have the same injury fears.

[tjforce]

Why does Wemby scare me in terms of putting any money into him? His build is like the opposite of Zion yet I have the same injury fears.

Because if you think about the most successful NBA players over 7'2", who do you come up with?

-Yao Ming
-Ralph Sampson
-Kristaps Porzingis
-Mark Eaton
-Manute Bol
-Zyldrunas Illgauskas
-Arvydas Sabonis


Some good players, but none have been super stars (other than Yao, in popularity for a while). A whole lot of injuries.

I know I know, Wemby is different, but there is no precedent for him which could be a scary thing. Interested to see how it'll play out.

[mfw13]

Historically, NBA stardom is divided into two tiers....those who have won rings, and those who have not. It doesn't make a difference how good your individual numbers are, if you don't win a ring, you're considered a level below those who have.

So if Luka never wins a ring, he'll be lumped in with guys like Dominique Wilkins, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and John Stockton (not bad company, admittedly).

Whereas if he does win a ring or two, he'll put himself into the top-10 conversation....

[mfw13]

Why does Wemby scare me in terms of putting any money into him? His build is like the opposite of Zion yet I have the same injury fears.

Because very few players that tall have managed to avoid the injury bug.....

[rifleman69]

Because if you think about the most successful NBA players over 7'2", who do you come up with?

-Yao Ming
-Ralph Sampson
-Kristaps Porzingis
-Mark Eaton
-Manute Bol
-Zyldrunas Illgauskas
-Arvydas Sabonis


Some good players, but none have been super stars (other than Yao, in popularity for a while). A whole lot of injuries.

I know I know, Wemby is different, but there is no precedent for him which could be a scary thing. Interested to see how it'll play out.

Arvydas by a longshot in that group. Not even close.

[GOATcards]

Historically, NBA stardom is divided into two tiers....those who have won rings, and those who have not. It doesn't make a difference how good your individual numbers are, if you don't win a ring, you're considered a level below those who have.

So if Luka never wins a ring, he'll be lumped in with guys like Dominique Wilkins, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and John Stockton (not bad company, admittedly).

Whereas if he does win a ring or two, he'll put himself into the top-10 conversation....

How much exactly should winning rings be weighted for ATG/GOAT-ranking purposes? Name the threshold before it starts looking ridiculous.

Karl Malone is a fine example to go with. How much should be be discounted, exactly, for not beating the late '90s Bulls, before it begins to sound ridiculous? Name which PFs you'd take in your all-time draft before him. Keep in mind he was named to a record 11 straight All-NBA first teams: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league.html (Keep his off-court criminality out of it plz/thx.)

[tjforce]

Arvydas by a longshot in that group. Not even close.

Hard to say. Probably, if you count his international play.

In the NBA he scored 16ppg once. 10 rebs per game once.

Would have loved to see him in his 20s.

Ralph Sampson has a solid start to his career, but sure enough, injuries got to him

[rifleman69]

Hard to say. Probably, if you count his international play.

In the NBA he scored 16ppg once. 10 rebs per game once.

Would have loved to see him in his 20s.

Ralph Sampson has a solid start to his career, but sure enough, injuries got to him

Watch him in the Olympics...he's the reason the Dream Team was formed in 1992.

[hauntedcomputer]

Kareem and Wilt did okay. To me Wemby's built more like Kareem than Ming, Sampson, Eaton, Bol and that ilk. he's not a big stiff. He actually has muscle tone. Looks like he could play a couple of decades.

That said, I ain't touching his cards until maybe 2050. Same with Luka. Kareem's already done it and his kards are cheep.

[ninjacookies]

Absolutely.

The only player that drops Luka from his darling status is Luka.

And what I mean by that is that he has this year and next to either win a title or start winning MVPs. The year after that the pressure really gets on him.

After that the whispers get louder and louder. He'll be 24 in 3 days. A lot of NBA greats didn't have a ring or MVP by 24. But if he gets to the point where he's past 26 and still doesn't have anything to show for it, then that's where each year is another one of the clock ticking down.


Basically.

To put this into perspective, Yannis is currently 28. To match his accolades, Luka would have to win 2 mpv's and a ship in the span of 5 seasons. Now is it possible an mvp and ring could fall in the same season? Sure, but odds are pretty tough.

If he's 26 with neither, then the White Harden chants may become deafening. Obviously he's a better player than Harden at a much accelerated career path, but that's how society operates.

Let's be honest, though. Mid 20's is still a baby in basketball years. It's just that everyone demands immediate results in this inve----er...hobby.


The other issue is that each year presents a new crop of rookie talent. I don't think too many people foresaw a talent like him sprouting in 2018. And there's a good chance someone from the next few drafts will inevitably be that next shiny toy. Happens in every sport.

Why does Wemby scare me in terms of putting any money into him? His build is like the opposite of Zion yet I have the same injury fears.

https://media.tenor.com/CughyuQS8XIAAAAM/breakingbad-science.gif


Slenderman and Gabourey Sidibe walk into a bar......

[Derekbauer]

How much exactly should winning rings be weighted for ATG/GOAT-ranking purposes? Name the threshold before it starts looking ridiculous.

Karl Malone is a fine example to go with. How much should be be discounted, exactly, for not beating the late '90s Bulls, before it begins to sound ridiculous? Name which PFs you'd take in your all-time draft before him. Keep in mind he was named to a record 11 straight All-NBA first teams: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league.html (Keep his off-court criminality out of it plz/thx.)

Every time I look at that list I forget how good Dwight Howard really was. Five straight nba all 1st teams.

[Asian62150]

Every time I look at that list I forget how good Dwight Howard really was. Five straight nba all 1st teams.

And yet not top 75/76.

His credentials were/are superior to AD's and others on the list.

[Beavers98]

How much exactly should winning rings be weighted for ATG/GOAT-ranking purposes? Name the threshold before it starts looking ridiculous.

Karl Malone is a fine example to go with. How much should be be discounted, exactly, for not beating the late '90s Bulls, before it begins to sound ridiculous? Name which PFs you'd take in your all-time draft before him. Keep in mind he was named to a record 11 straight All-NBA first teams: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league.html (Keep his off-court criminality out of it plz/thx.)

I understand your point. But in my all-time draft, I'm taking Tim Duncan over Malone. Easy choice imo.

[2010GBPackers]

Luka's great; he really is. But for the last 2 years, he's been screaming "Harden/Westbrook" to me. Sure, he's only 24 y/o, but what has changed about his game? In which area(s) has he improved? I think he's peaked already (which is fine!). I'm not one who sees top-10 all-time in his future.

[TSonn]

Luka's great; he really is. But for the last 2 years, he's been screaming "Harden/Westbrook" to me. Sure, he's only 24 y/o, but what has changed about his game? In which area(s) has he improved? I think he's peaked already (which is fine!). I'm not one who sees top-10 all-time in his future.

You mentioned this in the Luka thread a while back and were given examples of where Luka has improved (especially this season). Maybe you took a vacation when people responded but here are some examples:


Taking fewer 3 pointers
Taking more free throws (highest free throw rate of career)
Highest eFG% of his career
Lowest turnover percentage
Best steal rate of his career


So, he is getting better. And there are some areas that he can clearly still improve - mostly around giving consistent effort - but I'll judge his improvement in this area more in the playoffs because the regular season means very little at this point.

And as for Wemby? I think it's more likely that he has an injury riddled career than him being a HOF player. Even if he's a top 5 player in the league, his play style probably won't translate to hobby superstardom since practically no big has made a lasting splash since Shaq. Hope he's great, though, since my Magic are in play for that #1 spot!

[GOATcards]

I understand your point. But in my all-time draft, I'm taking Tim Duncan over Malone. Easy choice imo.

So do I. My question was, how many PFs do you take over him?

[tjforce]

Luka's great; he really is. But for the last 2 years, he's been screaming "Harden/Westbrook" to me. Sure, he's only 24 y/o, but what has changed about his game? In which area(s) has he improved? I think he's peaked already (which is fine!). I'm not one who sees top-10 all-time in his future.

You'll appreciate this...

Right now Luka has the following of Patrick Mahomes with the resume and hardware of Josh Allen. (I'm pretty high on Josh Allen, BTW).

A lot of people, including myself, feel like the best is yet to come for Luka, and eventually he'll get there. But if you think about it, that's the level that his body of work is on at this point.

[oplum29]

Disclaimer: I like Luka, and I own his cards.

I think most people will agree that Lukas card prices relative to other players is still quite a bit inflated.

My prediction is that Wemby will knock Luka off the “darling” status. (Unless Luka wins rings in the next two seasons)

No one can retain that young, golden boy spot forever.

but will Wemby knock off Luka when Wemby goes to my Spurs? :coffee:

[2010GBPackers]

You mentioned this in the Luka thread a while back and were given examples of where Luka has improved (especially this season). Maybe you took a vacation when people responded but here are some examples:


Taking fewer 3 pointers
Taking more free throws (highest free throw rate of career)
Highest eFG% of his career
Lowest turnover percentage
Best steal rate of his career


So, he is getting better. And there are some areas that he can clearly still improve - mostly around giving consistent effort - but I'll judge his improvement in this area more in the playoffs because the regular season means very little at this point.

You made my point for me. Small stat bumps in a few areas are meaningless at his level. I'll give him this - his team is trash and really has always been. However, bad habits begin to form when you're a superstar on a substandard team. IMO, he's never been held accountable for his effort (at times), and his lack of getting others involved, which is funny to say when you look at his assist statistics. But it's true, nonetheless. Taking the air out of the ball for 16 seconds, going iso, and finding the open guy at the last second isn't as valuable to me as making sure multiple people touch the ball on a possession and he ends up getting the "hockey assist" on a made 3, which won't show up on a stat sheet.

I just get stuck on the fact that his game hasn't changed in his what is now his 5th NBA season. Not stats; his game. That's why I think he's peaked - I'm not sure he knows how to play a different way (i.e. without the ball). We'll see, though. A lot will be hashed out in the next 3 months playing with Kyrie.

[FT35]

You made my point for me. Small stat bumps in a few areas are meaningless at his level. I'll give him this - his team is trash and really has always been. However, bad habits begin to form when you're a superstar on a substandard team. IMO, he's never been held accountable for his effort (at times), and his lack of getting others involved, which is funny to say when you look at his assist statistics. But it's true, nonetheless. Taking the air out of the ball for 16 seconds, going iso, and finding the open guy at the last second isn't as valuable to me as making sure multiple people touch the ball on a possession and he ends up getting the "hockey assist" on a made 3, which won't show up on a stat sheet.

I just get stuck on the fact that his game hasn't changed in his what is now his 5th NBA season. Not stats; his game. That's why I think he's peaked - I'm not sure he knows how to play a different way (i.e. without the ball). We'll see, though. A lot will be hashed out in the next 3 months playing with Kyrie.


When you’re as good as Luka, improvement only happens in small increments. If he was improving rapidly all the time, I’d say he wasn’t elite to begin with.

[TSonn]

When you’re as good as Luka, improvement only happens in small increments. If he was improving rapidly all the time, I’d say he wasn’t elite to begin with.

100%.

And he's improving in minor areas where critics have asked him to improve.

"He's gotta stop shooting so many 3s!"
- He's shooting 3s at his lowest rate (43% of his shots his rookie year were 3s, that number has gone down each season, now at 34% of his shots)

"He's gotta cut down on terrible passes and turnovers!"
- Turnover percentage (11.8%) is lowest of career (down from 15.4% last year)

"He's gotta get easier buckets"
- His FT attempt rate is up to 50% compared to 35% the previous two seasons

"He comes into the league super fat and doesn't care"
- Came into this year in the best shape since the bubble restart

"He's terrible on defense!"
- He's improved each year on defense (averaging his highest steal rate this year)

And there's a whole bunch more to get into if we really wanted to. But if someone is expecting him to develop into an off ball shooter or an all-defensive player, then those are just unrealistic expectations for a player who's playstyle already puts him in the top 5 players in the NBA. Aside from continuing to work on the little things in his game, the main issues with Luka are giving consistent energy and the roster around him.

[mfw13]

How much exactly should winning rings be weighted for ATG/GOAT-ranking purposes? Name the threshold before it starts looking ridiculous.

Karl Malone is a fine example to go with. How much should be be discounted, exactly, for not beating the late '90s Bulls, before it begins to sound ridiculous? Name which PFs you'd take in your all-time draft before him. Keep in mind he was named to a record 11 straight All-NBA first teams: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league.html (Keep his off-court criminality out of it plz/thx.)

If you have two players ranked roughly equally, obviously rings serve as an excellent tie-breaker....as another poster noted, that's probably why most people would rank Duncan ahead of Malone.

And saying he doesn't have any rings because he failed to beat the late 90's Bulls is a bit disingenious....he played 16 other seasons with Utah and never even made it to the Finals. In fact, the Jazz didn't even make it out of the 1st round in half his seasons....they only won 16 playoff series total in Malone's 18 seasons with them.

[GOATcards]

If you have two players ranked roughly equally, obviously rings serve as an excellent tie-breaker....as another poster noted, that's probably why most people would rank Duncan ahead of Malone.



And saying he doesn't have any rings because he failed to beat the late 90's Bulls is a bit disingenious....he played 16 other seasons with Utah and never even made it to the Finals. In fact, the Jazz didn't even make it out of the 1st round in half his seasons....they only won 16 playoff series total in Malone's 18 seasons with them.While you're throwing the word disingenuous around, can you mention when Hakeem made the Finals since I was making a comparison? Oh the Rockets did lose to the 86 Celtics. Gee, kinda like playing against the Jordan Bulls. But somehow let's find a way to insinuate I'm being disingenuous without knowing it

(What is it with some people)

Sent from my V350C using Tapatalk

[Dnic]

You'll appreciate this...

Right now Luka has the following of Patrick Mahomes with the resume and hardware of Josh Allen. (I'm pretty high on Josh Allen, BTW).

A lot of people, including myself, feel like the best is yet to come for Luka, and eventually he'll get there. But if you think about it, that's the level that his body of work is on at this point.

Wasting your breath that person doesn't even watch any games to give any kind of insight, lots to improve and he is still improving each year his mid game is getting unguardable with the Dirk like fades. Main thing I really hope Luka improves is his FT shooting almost seems like sometimes he doesn't even concentrate or just plain lackadaisical with it.

[tjforce]

Wasting your breath that person doesn't even watch any games to give any kind of insight, lots to improve and he is still improving each year his mid game is getting unguardable with the Dirk like fades. Main thing I really hope Luka improves is his FT shooting almost seems like sometimes he doesn't even concentrate or just plain lackadaisical with it.

Two real areas he can improve:

1. Shooting. He is a good shooter. But there is a level of guys out there that are in a different tier. Curry, Lillard, etc. Now they don't have the size that Luka does and can't score in quite as many ways, but over time they will just make more shots (free throws included).

2. Leadership. Not going to complain that he's a whines too much or whatever, but just like shooting, there's a level of leadership we've seen out of the upper echelon of guys that he hasn't shown yet. But then again, that's exceedingly rare in guys his age and I can only think of 1 playing right now that has been able to lead his team like that to overcome talent discrepancies by age 24. Maybe 2 guys.

Good news is that it's possible to learn/develop these things. Will he? Time will tell. And my guess is that it'll make the difference in the end of whether we are discussing him as top 5 or top 25 all time.

[JRX]

All depends on what team he goes to after kyrie ruins the mavs.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[boxbuster7]

I think it has some to do with Luka but more to do with what the market experienced in the last few years.

Luka 2018 prizm silver isn't a rare card. It never should've gone over $2,000 raw. There are many examples of this but lets use the golden standard basketball RC.

What most are recognizing is that numbered quality stuff is what is going to hold value over time. Yes, it has dropped some, but the entire market has also corrected.

[Zedlaw]

You'll appreciate this...

Right now Luka has the following of Patrick Mahomes with the resume and hardware of Josh Allen. (I'm pretty high on Josh Allen, BTW).

A lot of people, including myself, feel like the best is yet to come for Luka, and eventually he'll get there. But if you think about it, that's the level that his body of work is on at this point.

In a crude sense what you said is true and history will be very kind to your argument but Mahomes has placed himself nicely in a sizable transition gap that Luka doesn't have. Mahomes was battling ancient Brady, Brees and Rodgers for MVPs. In one sense Luka is performing similar because he has surpassed Curry, Durant and Lebron in MVP chatter. The difference is there wasn't a next wave in football, who are the Embiid, Jokic and Giannis of football. Guys at their apex prime compared to Mahomes and Luka who are still growing their games and in their early primes. Mahomes is older than everyone he's competing with.

[tjforce]

In a crude sense what you said is true and history will be very kind to your argument but Mahomes has placed himself nicely in a sizable transition gap that Luka doesn't have. Mahomes was battling ancient Brady, Brees and Rodgers for MVPs. In one sense Luka is performing similar because he has surpassed Curry, Durant and Lebron in MVP chatter. The difference is there wasn't a next wave in football, who are the Embiid, Jokic and Giannis of football. Guys at their apex prime compared to Mahomes and Luka who are still growing their games and in their early primes. Mahomes is older than everyone he's competing with.

Mahomes has played 1 more year professionally and has 2 MVPs, 2 Super Bowl Bowls, and 2 Super Bowl MVPs. He's also won his division 5 years in a row and is not currently sitting in 6th place.

He ran into Aaron Rodgers at his regular season peak for two years.
He got bested by Lamar Jackson, who was younger and flies in the face of your argument. Regardless, Luka has yet to finish top 4 in MVP voting, so it's not like it's just one guy keeping him out of the spot. And if you want to use the Giannis comp, Giannis won his MVP at age 24 (Luka turns 24 tomorrow).

This is what I am talking about when I say that Luka has this year, then 2 more before the clock really starts ticking. So I'm not that worried.

But until he does, he's no Mahomes.

[boxbuster7]

In a crude sense what you said is true and history will be very kind to your argument but Mahomes has placed himself nicely in a sizable transition gap that Luka doesn't have. Mahomes was battling ancient Brady, Brees and Rodgers for MVPs. In one sense Luka is performing similar because he has surpassed Curry, Durant and Lebron in MVP chatter. The difference is there wasn't a next wave in football, who are the Embiid, Jokic and Giannis of football. Guys at their apex prime compared to Mahomes and Luka who are still growing their games and in their early primes. Mahomes is the same age as everyone he's competing with.

I agree with you that Mahomes is in a tier of his own, but I'm calling BS on your argument. Lets run through who Mahomes beat in the 2022 playoffs:

Jalen Hurts 24 years old
Joe Burrow 26 years old
Trevor Lawrence 23 years old

[GOATcards]

Mahomes has played 1 more year professionally and has 2 MVPs, 2 Super Bowl Bowls, and 2 Super Bowl MVPs. He's also won his division 5 years in a row and is not currently sitting in 6th place.


I just love it when people talk about players like they're teams. Do it all the time, please :)!

[boxbuster7]

I just love it when people talk about players like they're teams. Do it all the time, please :)!

Mahomes is in a tier of his own. Just accept it and enjoy his greatness.

[Asian62150]

I wonder how crazy Luka stuff would be if he won an MVP his 2nd year and a chip his 3rd year like Mahomes (even though Mahomes really sat that first year). That's right when everything started going bonkers...

[tjforce]

I just love it when people talk about players like they're teams. Do it all the time, please :)!

MVP is an individual award.

So is Super Bowl MVP. (Finals MVP)


And come on, this is basketball, where so much of greatness is dependent on championships.

Again... I'm in the camp that Luka will get there, and probably wind up with ~4-5 MVPs/Championships. But it just hasn't happened yet.

[tjforce]

I agree with you that Mahomes is in a tier of his own, but I'm calling BS on your argument. Lets run through who Mahomes beat in the 2022 playoffs:

Jalen Hurts 24 years old
Joe Burrow 26 years old
Trevor Lawrence 23 years old

And in 2019 when he won the other Super Bowl he beat a 28 year old and a 31 year old to get there.

Regardless, I don't think we're too far apart that Luka has set himself up to where if he has a huge 5 year run in regards to bringing home hardware, then he can get right in that highest echelon, so no point in arguing semantics.

[Zedlaw]

So far the answers to my question of who are the Embiid, Jokic and Giannis to Mahomes is Watson, Lamar, Tannehill and Garoppolo

[tjforce]

So far the answers to my question of who are the Embiid, Jokic and Giannis to Mahomes is Watson, Lamar, Tannehill and Garoppolo

And your argument falls apart when you see that the reason Luka hasn't won any titles isn't because of Embiid, Jokic, and Giannis stopping him, it's been of a 34 year old Curry, a 32 year old PG13, and a 29 year old Kawhi.

So he hasn't won MVP because of the prime aged guys, and gets knocked out of the playoffs by the past their prime guys.... but in reality he just hasn't gotten it done yet. Which again, I don't hold against him because there is still so much time to go.

But let's not go making excuses about the guy who has gotten it done, Mahomes, or Giannis when he was 24 and beat out a 29 year old Harden and an 28 year old PG13.


*And also... wait a second.. Joe Burrow and Josh Allen are both 26. Last year when Jokic won his 2nd MVP he was 26.

[GOATcards]

what kind of garbage human being pretends that a QB can control his team's defense

[GOATcards]

And come on, this is basketball, where so much of greatness is dependent on championships.


it's so much BS if winning championships depend on so much other than individual effort/quality

[tjforce]

what kind of garbage human being pretends that a QB can control his team's defense

Funny thing about Mahomes...

He overcame two very mediocre Chiefs defenses to win both those titles.

As a matter of fact, the 35 points the Eagles scored 2 weeks ago against the Chiefs is the MOST ever surrendered by a winning team in the Super Bowl.

Look. Luka is awesome. Best 24 year old on the planet. But to say Mahomes hasn't achieve more than him up unto this point is silly. That's more of a testament to Mahomes than it's a shot at Luka. Because like I said, Luka still has a ton of time to get to that level of achievement.

[sethc1020]

Mahomes has played 1 more year professionally and has 2 MVPs, 2 Super Bowl Bowls, and 2 Super Bowl MVPs. He's also won his division 5 years in a row and is not currently sitting in 6th place.

He ran into Aaron Rodgers at his regular season peak for two years.
He got bested by Lamar Jackson, who was younger and flies in the face of your argument. Regardless, Luka has yet to finish top 4 in MVP voting, so it's not like it's just one guy keeping him out of the spot. And if you want to use the Giannis comp, Giannis won his MVP at age 24 (Luka turns 24 tomorrow).

This is what I am talking about when I say that Luka has this year, then 2 more before the clock really starts ticking. So I'm not that worried.

But until he does, he's no Mahomes.

The only argument I have with the Mahomes Luka comparison is that Mahomes came into a MUCH better situation when he got drafted to KC. Great coach, great weapons around him, great QB to sit behind and learn from his first year and willing to help him along the way which a LOT of starting QBs won't do. KC was already built to win just needed that extra piece to push them over the edge and Mahomes was definitly that piece.

Think if Luka had been drafted to a team like Miami, Philly, Den, or LA (either) what he possibly could have achieved by now. Instead he came into a bad Dallas team that is still trying to find a way to build around him with bad players and worse contracts, different coaches, different GMs ect ect.

On the other side of it imagine Mahomes got drafted to Jax, NYJ, Cleveland, or Chi. Does his progression look the same in the hobby and status??? He would still be a great QB no doubt but I don't see him holding all the hardware he has now. Similar situation that Luka is in with Dallas.

Basketball is a different beast than football also. Much easier for a player to come in the NFL and break out early in their careers than in the NBA IMO as well. Most of the time they are several years older than the NBA rookie. Plus I feel like guys don't really hit their prime (either sport) until around age 26-27 no matter how good they are. And by that time most guys in the NBA have been in the league for around 6-8 years, NFL 4-5 years. Again so it takes less time to hit peak in the NFL than it does in the NBA because guys are coming into the league much younger than the NFL.

I guess the long story short is that the Mahomes/Luka comparison isn't Apples to Apples IMO

[matt roberson]

Why don't the Mahomes nut huggers take this ish back to the football forum.

[Zedlaw]

And your argument falls apart when you see that the reason Luka hasn't won any titles isn't because of Embiid, Jokic, and Giannis stopping him, it's been of a 34 year old Curry, a 32 year old PG13, and a 29 year old Kawhi.

So he hasn't won MVP because of the prime aged guys, and gets knocked out of the playoffs by the past their prime guys.... but in reality he just hasn't gotten it done yet. Which again, I don't hold against him because there is still so much time to go.

But let's not go making excuses about the guy who has gotten it done, Mahomes, or Giannis when he was 24 and beat out a 29 year old Harden and an 28 year old PG13.


*And also... wait a second.. Joe Burrow and Josh Allen are both 26. Last year when Jokic won his 2nd MVP he was 26.

My argument is simply highlighting the fallow period of quarterbacks drafted between Rodgers and Mahomes.

Goff
Wentz
Winston
Mariota
Bortles
Bridgewater
Geno
Watson
Lamar
Wilson
Cousins
Dalton
Newton
Ryan
Luck
Dak

These are the theoretically apex prime guys Mahomes has been competing against for MVP. There's been a couple breakthroughs. Wilson had a run, Newton and Ryan had a flash, Wentz had a sneeze, Luck decided against it, Lamar is still looking for consistency, Watson had other plans. The Greats Mahomes is competing for MVPs against are past their prime (the old guys were still winning partly because no one grabbed the award from them until Mahomes). Luka is not only competing against greats past their time but also greats at their true apex. All I'm trying to say is that Luka would have had a much tougher road to climb to reach the milestones Mahomes has reached. While Luka has more competition in front of him I do believe Mahomes has more competition behind him. Comparing team success is a different animal, rife with its own minefield of variables.

[blockedbyjames]

Why don't the Mahomes nut huggers take this ish back to the football forum.

Mind boggling to drag the name Mahomes in the drudge of a Luka thread. Luka investers are trying like mad to get Luka tied to some Mahomes analogy some way some how. That ship has sailed.

A better comparison is Mahomes and Giannis, both have MVPs, title(s), and are the best players in the league but that's another thread too.

[boxbuster7]

Why don't the Mahomes nut huggers take this ish back to the football forum.

Because mahomes transcends the football forum

[rttrffg2012]

Luka is the man!!
He could be the title character in a Star Wars movie!
LUKA SKYWALKER would swish those missiles in the exhaust port of the Death Star

[tjforce]

Mind boggling to drag the name Mahomes in the drudge of a Luka thread. Luka investers are trying like mad to get Luka tied to some Mahomes analogy some

A better comparison is Mahomes and Giannis, both have MVPs, title(s), and are the best players in the league but that's another thread too.

Fact of the matter is that these are the two biggest names to hit the hobby in almost the last 20 years. If you were asked which athletes under 30 are best set up to be long lasting hobby legends, I think these two would be consensus 2 out of the top 3 on any list.

They are going to be tied together for a long time, and I for one, am going to enjoy the hell out of watching them both for the next decade+.

And if anyone doesn't like that, then here's a picture of the two not getting upset by each other
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1105165406539440133/vXba36Al_400x400.png

[indyguy]

How much exactly should winning rings be weighted for ATG/GOAT-ranking purposes? Name the threshold before it starts looking ridiculous.

Karl Malone is a fine example to go with. How much should be be discounted, exactly, for not beating the late '90s Bulls, before it begins to sound ridiculous? Name which PFs you'd take in your all-time draft before him. Keep in mind he was named to a record 11 straight All-NBA first teams: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league.html (Keep his off-court criminality out of it plz/thx.)

All of them that didn't get a 12/13 year old girl pregnant.

Nope, you don't get to dictate opinion.

[blockedbyjames]

Fact of the matter is that these are the two biggest names to hit the hobby in almost the last 20 years. If you were asked which athletes under 30 are best set up to be long lasting hobby legends, I think these two would be consensus 2 out of the top 3 on any list.

They are going to be tied together for a long time, and I for one, am going to enjoy the hell out of watching them both for the next decade+.

And if anyone doesn't like that, then here's a picture of the two not getting upset by each other
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1105165406539440133/vXba36Al_400x400.png

Yes that is actually a true statement, and no one is hating Mahomes and Luka watching each others games. That has nothing to do with the point I was making, which is that the career accolades of Mahomes and Luka are as similar as Peyton Manning and Trey Young:)!

Mahomes grew up a hundred miles from Dallas so it's perfectly logical he'd be a Mavs fan.

[Asian62150]

All of them that didn't get a 12/13 year old girl pregnant.

Nope, you don't get to dictate opinion.

Yeah...I had no idea about the under age thing until this year's ASW. And then found out about other stuff, too. No bueno.

[Dame]

Mind boggling to drag the name Mahomes in the drudge of a Luka thread. Luka investers are trying like mad to get Luka tied to some Mahomes analogy some way some how. That ship has sailed.

A better comparison is Mahomes and Giannis, both have MVPs, title(s), and are the best players in the league but that's another thread too.

I like the Mahomes- Giannis comparison. It seems like an apt description give the parallels in their careers.

Luka like Ja, Tatum etc are all under the Burrow, Herbert, JA comp atm.

[tjforce]

I like the Mahomes- Giannis comparison. It seems like an apt description give the parallels in their careers.

Luka like Ja, Tatum etc are all under the Burrow, Herbert, JA comp atm.

If you are talking about accomplishments, yes. Those guys are both MVPs and Champions who have achieved Best Player on the Planet status at some point.

As far as hobby darlings, I hate to say it (because I'm an ever bigger Giannis fan), but Luka still takes the top spot for basketball players under 30 for the time being.

My original comment of Luka has the hobby status of Mahomes and the career accomplishments of Josh Allen still holds up.

[Asian62150]

I'm not going to go so far as to compare Luka to Mahomes since Mahomie has compiled a good amount of hardware in a short time. Luka has already compiled a ton of "youngest to do _____" stuff though. And the NFL and NBA comparisons aren't that great but I get what ppl are saying.

On paper, Luka is more closely linked to guys like Burrow, Herbert, etc...because no one in that group has won an MVP or chip but all have a ton of potential and have already put up great stats.

But watching Luka play, he just has a quality you don't find. Guys like Giannis and LeBron can physically dominate a game. But when Luka plays, there's an artistic element and in that way he's similar to Mahomes. There are things the two of them do that just captivate you.

If Luka had the NBA equivalent of Tyreke Hill/Travis Kelce/Andy Reid (have no idea who those guys would be), I think he would rack up some major hardware quickly, too.

Maybe a better comp in terms of style is Federer (minus the 20 titles). Nadal is this force of nature that grinds you out. He's actually my favorite tennis player. But Fed had this graceful style that was just beautiful to watch.

[Dame]

If you are talking about accomplishments, yes. Those guys are both MVPs and Champions who have achieved Best Player on the Planet status at some point.

As far as hobby darlings, I hate to say it (because I'm an ever bigger Giannis fan), but Luka still takes the top spot for basketball players under 30 for the time being.

My original comment of Luka has the hobby status of Mahomes and the career accomplishments of Josh Allen still holds up.

Oh yeah no debate there. Agree with you.

[Orangejello727]

Do you have to know how to play defence in order to be considered one of the best?

[tjforce]

Do you have to know how to play defence in order to be considered one of the best?

Magic Johnson wasn't a great defender and many have him top 5.

[Orangejello727]

Magic Johnson wasn't a great defender and many have him top 5.

Who has him top 5?? Haven't seen a person put in him the top 5.


But I get the push to deem Luka GOAT whether he gets any hardware or not. This generation is all about participation awards, not achievements. :)!:)!

[tjforce]

Who has him top 5?? Haven't seen a person put in him the top 5.


But I get the push to deem Luka GOAT whether he gets any hardware or not. This generation is all about participation awards, not achievements. :)!:)!

ESPN, for one
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1

The Athletic, as well
https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/

HoopsHype, FWIW
https://hoopshype.com/lists/75-greatest-nba-players-ever-the-hoopshype-list/

What are some other reputable lists?

[pcptrade]

What are some other reputable lists?

BO members lists and opinions:D

This a newer list (2022). Magic is at #4

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33297498/the-nba-75th-anniversary-team-ranked-where-76-basketball-legends-check-our-list

[Dame]

Crazy talk. Magic easily a Top 5, probably higher without the virus.

[sethc1020]

But watching Luka play, he just has a quality you don't find. Guys like Giannis and LeBron can physically dominate a game. But when Luka plays, there's an artistic element and in that way he's similar to Mahomes. There are things the two of them do that just captivate you.

This pretty much sums it up for me.

[cowboyzqna]

It's baffling to me that K. Malone is allowed to live in society being a child predator.... but not only is he welcomed but people give him credit for being good at basketball like that really matters in the bigger picture.



Luka and mahomes are both incredible. When talent meets drive and discipline. Plus they both phyco about winning. Like someone else said it's gonna be a fun ten years.


If I had 100k and I could only invest in one or the other starting today and having spent it all in 6 months... I'm going with Luka. Mahimes isn't a bad second option lol

[SupermanBrandon]

Who has him top 5?? Haven't seen a person put in him the top 5.


But I get the push to deem Luka GOAT whether he gets any hardware or not. This generation is all about participation awards, not achievements. :)!:)!


Brah…LeBron and his nut huggers are the poster boys for this generation. The guy has lost more championship series’ than he’s won. BUT “he’s been to more than MJ”. Participation!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blockedbyjames]

It's baffling to me that K. Malone is allowed to live in society being a child predator.... but not only is he welcomed but people give him credit for being good at basketball like that really matters in the bigger picture.



Luka and mahomes are both incredible. When talent meets drive and discipline. Plus they both phyco about winning. Like someone else said it's gonna be a fun ten years.


If I had 100k and I could only invest in one or the other starting today and having spent it all in 6 months... I'm going with Luka. Mahimes isn't a bad second option lol

Unfortunately the society you're referring to doesn't exist anymore. It's been supplanted by a society with pedophiles in every echelon of media, sports, government, schools, tik tok, etc.

[daeve]

Magic Johnson wasn't a great defender and many have him top 5.

Magic already had 2 rings by Luka's age.

[DontToewsMeBro]

Kyrie and Cuban? Two douchebags who deserve each other.

I just hope that Luka can get out of there and go somewhere else.

[Nomad]

Hey, Luka liked Kyrie's last second shot from way out the arc when all they needed was to tie.

[KhalDrogo]

Magic already had 2 rings by Luka's age.
:cry:

You’re a clown daeve. Magic went to a Lakers team with three HOFers in or near their prime. That comment is a joke.

[DontToewsMeBro]

:cry:

You’re a clown daeve. Magic went to a Lakers team with three HOFers in or near their prime. That comment is a joke.

That being true.... when has that ever stopped anyone from talking out of their butt?

[sportzluvr1]

Hey, Luka liked Kyrie's last second shot from way out the arc when all they needed was to tie.

Gotta’ walk on eggshells so Kyrie doesn’t leave.

Mavs took on the poison pill….

[DontToewsMeBro]

Mavs took on the poison pill….

https://y.yarn.co/fe940b65-fe5c-47c4-95a4-fb6959852d57_text.gif

[Orangejello727]

:cry:

You’re a clown daeve. Magic went to a Lakers team with three HOFers in or near their prime. That comment is a joke.

The real joke is you guys putting Luka in Magics class already.

Luka will only win a chip when he isnt the main player on his team. But I am sure you Lukantics will claim he did it all by himself if he ever wins.

[daeve]

:cry:

You’re a clown daeve. Magic went to a Lakers team with three HOFers in or near their prime. That comment is a joke.

doesn't seem to stop TJ from including Giannis in the pantheons with his 1 ring and 3 all-star teammates [including 2 all-Def level guys] vs Jokic, who has still not played with an all-star teammate. :rolleyes:

Why are you still commenting in the hoops section anyway? You don't like the sport.

[KhalDrogo]

doesn't seem to stop TJ from including Giannis in the pantheons with his 1 ring and 3 all-star teammates [including 2 all-Def level guys] vs Jokic, who has still not played with an all-star teammate. :rolleyes:

Why are you still commenting in the hoops section anyway? You don't like the sport.
1. We all know what TJ is.
2. I’ll post here if I want.
3. You’ve said you’re leaving the board next season because of how bad this place is, but yet still hanging around for what exactly?

[daeve]

1. We all know what TJ is.
2. I’ll post here if I want.
3. You’ve said you’re leaving the board next season because of how bad this place is, but yet still hanging around for what exactly?

I'm invested in this season - and old habits die hard. Also didn't say I was leaving - said I wouldn't be regularly posting - I'll still lurk and drop in occasionally.

[tjforce]

doesn't seem to stop TJ from including Giannis in the pantheons with his 1 ring and 3 all-star teammates [including 2 all-Def level guys] vs Jokic, who has still not played with an all-star teammate. :rolleyes:

Why are you still commenting in the hoops section anyway? You don't like the sport.

1. We all know what TJ is.
2. I’ll post here if I want.
3. You’ve said you’re leaving the board next season because of how bad this place is, but yet still hanging around for what exactly?

God, I am in both your heads.

The only reason I brought up Magic is because some guy asked "Do you have to know how to play defence in order to be considered one of the best?"

And as for Giannis.... I wasn't even the one who brought him up. That was BlockedbyJames. I just mentioned that Luka has an ever bigger hobby following for now.

The mental gymnastics are funny at this point. I'm just trying to have a conversation about Luka and here are you two turning it into a conversation about me. I'm flattered, but lets stick to sports talk.

[daeve]

God, I am in both your heads.

The only reason I brought up Magic is because some guy asked "Do you have to know how to play defence in order to be considered one of the best?"

And as for Giannis.... I wasn't even the one who brought him up. That was BlockedbyJames. I just mentioned that Luka has an ever bigger hobby following for now.

The mental gymnastics are funny at this point. I'm just trying to have a conversation about Luka and here are you two turning it into a conversation about me. I'm flattered, but lets stick to sports talk.

Ah so just in a power of suggestion, subtle way. I know the 'Luka Magic' nickname likely wasn't born here, but was it via the twittersphere or some card youtubers during the height of covid pump?

my point was a pretty simple one - does teammate context matter, or is it only about rings? It seems to be used disingenuously to favor some stars over others in hobby talk.

[Nomad]

I called it last year, but I think the Mavs needed a Nesmith. Instead they traded Brunson and brought in I forget. And their defense obviously still ain't there. They could have prolly even used a Nwora, more recently. But instead they got someone 10 times as expensive. Typical Internet ownership vs. old school team building. Result: Pacers win.

[Easycards]

I called it last year, but I think the Mavs needed a Nesmith. Instead they traded Brunson and brought in I forget. And their defense obviously still ain't there. They could have prolly even used a Nwora, more recently. But instead they got someone 10 times as expensive. Typical Internet ownership vs. old school team building. Result: Pacers win.


As a point of clarification, they did not trade Brunson.

[Asian62150]

Daeve's thought about Magic's rings is why the rings argument doesn't/shouldn't hold the most weight all the time.

Kobe won his 1st three rings as the clear second banana to Shaquille. But when we look back on his career, most people just throw out the 5 rings as if he played like a superstar in his prime for all 5 championships.

Not all rings are created equally, just like not all MVPs are created equally. I love D Rose, but his MVP was more about narrative instead of actual on-court performance. Truthfully, LeBron deserved MVP that year, but after "The Decision," no way the media was going to vote for Villain LeBron.

Kobe's 1st ring isn't the same as Dirk's ring or Wade's 1st ring.

We're just too lazy these days to really differentiate so we say "this star is better than that star because he has more rings!"

[KhalDrogo]

Ah so just in a power of suggestion, subtle way. I know the 'Luka Magic' nickname likely wasn't born here, but was it via the twittersphere or some card youtubers during the height of covid pump?

my point was a pretty simple one - does teammate context matter, or is it only about rings? It seems to be used disingenuously to favor some stars over others in hobby talk.
I’ve never once thought of it as Luka Magic. It’s always been Luka magic.

Which is it supposed to be?

[Makakilo Cards]

So am I understanding correctly that some of you believe a ringless Luka, or even a 1 ring Luka, will maintain his hobby hype in the end? Or are we just talking about real basketball now?

[daeve]

I’ve never once thought of it as Luka Magic. It’s always been Luka magic.

Which is it supposed to be?

You haven't thought of it like that? the internet certainly has

https://wp.clutchpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/luka.jpg

Context always matters.

[KhalDrogo]

You haven't thought of it like that? the internet certainly has

https://wp.clutchpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/luka.jpg

Context always matters.
Here’s the origin.

0F2XO78Qr60

Obviously a reference to Magic Johnson and his infamous corner three buzzer beaters.

[Orangejello727]

So am I understanding correctly that some of you believe a ringless Luka, or even a 1 ring Luka, will maintain his hobby hype in the end? Or are we just talking about real basketball now?

They believe that Luka, no matter what he does is the GOAT moving forward. He defines the term "best" whether he does win or doesnt win. Its like a participation ribbon just for 1 player. He gets one for winning and he get one for losing as well. But only him. Why? I dont know

[Asian62150]

So am I understanding correctly that some of you believe a ringless Luka, or even a 1 ring Luka, will maintain his hobby hype in the end? Or are we just talking about real basketball now?

Has anyone in here actually said that?

Also, I think hobby hype is for prospect/young players. Retired guys have no hobby hype. The only time I can see them having any kind of hobby hype post-retirement is when they haven't signed autographs for a long time and suddenly start signing again. But even that is short-lived.

[Makakilo Cards]

Has anyone in here actually said that?

Also, I think hobby hype is for prospect/young players. Retired guys have no hobby hype. The only time I can see them having any kind of hobby hype post-retirement is when they haven't signed autographs for a long time and suddenly start signing again. But even that is short-lived.

So you do think he needs to win championships for his cards to hold their value?

[ninjacookies]

Mahomes' prices have been steadily declining all year DESPITE having the perfect season with an MVP/ SB win.

Prices being tethered to stellar vet player performance isn't really a thing right now. The macro view of the market is still quite bearish. Meaning, even if Luka miraculously pulls off a championship this year, his prices won't explode like some may anticipate. Not until the market finds a bottom and starts the recovery process.


At this point, 98 percent of active players continue to trend down, save for the fly by night Can Thomas/ Brock Purdy pumps.

Playing at an MVP/Championship level only decelerates the rate of decline.

[NeedChapmans]

Playing at an MVP/Championship level only decelerates the rate of decline.

This may be true of most, but not all. MV3 value has steadily risen since the beginning of the season and he's a tickle away from all time high value. I see two-three Silvers a week + an Immaculate once a quarter and we're approaching peak.

Perhaps this is because he never balooned quite like everyone else in 2020 but there are still players who have seen rising value in this market.

[ninjacookies]

Perhaps this is because he never balooned quite like everyone else in 2020 but there are still players who have seen rising value in this market.

His market segment/interest is so low compared to other superstars. [insert .gif of LeBron/GA on the emptied stage with Nikola awkwardly trying to avoid eye contact].

You increase his potential buyer base by a mere handful and you could probably see bitcoin gains overnight.

[NeedChapmans]

His market segment/interest is so low compared to other superstars. [insert .gif of LeBron/GA on the emptied stage with Nikola awkwardly trying to avoid eye contact].

You increase his potential buyer base by a mere handful and you could probably see bitcoin gains overnight.

I believe you. Jokic is an incredibly unsaturated market vs. just about every other NBA star, which only helps value short and long-term.

Doncic needs to win something, now. Said saturated market will being to peel off if he doesn't and the reason his value has continued a downturn has more to do with his lack of accolades and team success and less about the market as a whole IMHO. (It all contibutes, yes). Dallas is in real danger of finishing out of the playoffs this year and Dallas also has no immediate future. Who's going to plunge money into that?

[ninjacookies]

I believe you. Jokic is an incredibly unsaturated market vs. just about every other NBA star, which only helps value short and long-term.

Doncic needs to win something, now. Said saturated market will being to peel off if he doesn't and the reason his value has continued a downturn has more to do with his lack of accolades and team success and less about the market as a whole IMHO. (It all contibutes, yes). Dallas is in real danger of finishing out of the playoffs this year and Dallas also has no immediate future. Who's going to plunge money into that?

I somewhat agree with the earlier Josh Allen comp if we're solely viewing things from the hobby aspect. Both now pegged with the presumption of annual MVP's as dictated by preseason futures lines. So yes, the pressure for him to, at minimum, win an MVP will swell as he approaches his mid 20's.

Is it fair? Not really. But the hobby rarely operates on realistic trajectories or timeless, because there's always some new, unproven talent to come along and intrigue deep pockets.

Luka's play has already established an exceptionally high baseline for his expectations going forward.

[NeedChapmans]

I somewhat agree with the earlier Josh Allen comp if we're solely viewing things from the hobby aspect. Both now pegged with the presumption of annual MVP's as dictated by preseason futures lines. So yes, the pressure for him to, at minimum, win an MVP will swell as he approaches his mid 20's.

Is it fair? Not really. But the hobby rarely operates on realistic trajectories or timeless, because there's always some new, unproven talent to come along and intrigue deep pockets.

Luka's play has already established an exceptionally high baseline for his expectations going forward.

Yes, expectations must meet reality for hobby value to thrive. Luka has come into each of the past three season as MVP favorite. Dallas came in this season looking to build from a WCF appearance. His personal outlook looks as far away as ever ... that's where the value fades.

If Luka putting up 33/9/9 on 50% doesn't get Dallas anywhere close; what hope does he have?

[Makakilo Cards]

Somehow, you two just made this whole thread make sense.

[ninjacookies]

Yes, expectations must meet reality for hobby value to thrive. Luka has come into each of the past three season as MVP favorite. Dallas came in this season looking to build from a WCF appearance. His personal outlook looks as far away as ever ... that's where the value fades.

If Luka putting up 33/9/9 on 50% doesn't get Dallas anywhere close; what hope does he have?

Like you said, Dallas has put themselves in a precarious situation. Kyrie's actually playing decently, but the synergy isn't there yet. And their depth isn't great compared to the top teams in the conference. Miracles can happen, but the prospects for that squad don't look too great atm.

Actually very reminiscent of the peak Harden/Houston era....except Dallas has prime-window Kyrie while JH was stuck with an oft-injured shell of CP3....with a ton of filler rounding out both rosters.

[NeedChapmans]

Like you said, Dallas has put themselves in a precarious situation. Kyrie's actually playing decently, but the synergy isn't there yet. And their depth isn't great compared to the top teams in the conference. Miracles can happen, but the prospects for that squad don't look too great atm.

Actually very reminiscent of the peak Harden/Houston era....except Dallas has prime-window Kyrie while JH was stuck with an oft-injured shell of CP3....with a ton of filler rounding out both rosters.

65 wins w/ a strong 5 in Capela. That Houston team was a lot better than this Dallas team but a similar mold indeed.

Bottom line as I see it; for Luka value to rise, he either needs to find team success in Dallas (unlikely), or start over somwhere else. Dallas ain't it.

[ninjacookies]

65 wins w/ a strong 5 in Capela. That Houston team was a lot better than this Dallas team but a similar mold indeed.

Bottom line as I see it; for Luka value to rise, he either needs to find team success in Dallas (unlikely), or start over somwhere else. Dallas ain't it.

I actually like Wood quite a bit. Unfortunately the coaching staff doesn't.

Going to be interesting to see how they approach the offseason. They pegged themselves as Blazers-lite with a slew of bad contracts for mediocre talents the past few years. Then letting a cultivated in-house prospect (and now borderline all-star) PG walk while gambling on replacements that may both end up failing within a calendar year. The good news is that a few of those guys are potentially coming off the books next season.


Here's where I stand with Luka: he's a generational individual talent. That can't be denied. But both he and the FO need to figure out a way for him to successfully cohabitate with star talent. Thus far nothing's worked. I don't think that's all on him or the Dallas brass, but rather a combination of both.

[tjforce]

I actually like Wood quite a bit. Unfortunately the coaching staff doesn't.

Going to be interesting to see how they approach the offseason. They pegged themselves as Blazers-lite with a slew of bad contracts for mediocre talents the past few years. Then letting a cultivated in-house prospect (and now borderline all-star) PG walk while gambling on replacements that may both end up failing within a calendar year. The good news is that a few of those guys are potentially coming off the books next season.


Here's where I stand with Luka: he's a generational individual talent. That can't be denied. But both he and the FO need to figure out a way for him to successfully cohabitate with star talent. Thus far nothing's worked. I don't think that's all on him or the Dallas brass, but rather a combination of both.

For me that's what's fun about Luka.

He's 1 Magical season away from being the new face of the NBA.

He's close from the aspect of stats and highlight plays. It's just a matter of if it can come together for a playoff run or regular season as a team.

He keeps us tuning in no matter what anyone has to say about him.

[ninjacookies]

For me that's what's fun about Luka.

He's 1 Magical season away from being the new face of the NBA.

He's close from the aspect of stats and highlight plays. It's just a matter of if it can come together for a playoff run or regular season as a team.

He keeps us tuning in no matter what anyone has to say about him.


My gut tells me he'll probably follow a similar career path as Lebron if we're talking title(s). There was a rather large period where his prices floated until he joined Miami and finally won a ship. The second ring was when things really took off.

Again, it's tough to make direct comparisons because LBJ also won 4 mvp's in the span of a half decade, and had very little in terms of prime-window hobby competition in the 2000's (Kobe?). Curry and KD weren't even a thing then, and Rose was short lived.

Luka's battling against quite a few monsters in a hyper prospecting era. Winning championships isn't such a clear path until guys like Steph and KD start their decline, and even then he'll still have to battle the likes of Giannis and maybe Yoker. Young squads like Memphis could also pose as a real roadblock.

[NeedChapmans]

For me that's what's fun about Luka.

He's 1 Magical season away from being the new face of the NBA.

He's close from the aspect of stats and highlight plays. It's just a matter of if it can come together for a playoff run or regular season as a team.

He keeps us tuning in no matter what anyone has to say about him.

That's not something that just happens tho (and it's not close). Dallas has never put a reliable 4/5 on the floor with him and we're at the point where the Mavericks are as hopeless as ever after five years w/ Luka. Hit the lottery, but went bankrupt.

Cuban/Dallas make decisions on the fly and it's left them w/ almost nothing. Worst bigs in the league, no defense, no boards, no assists ... I don't think it's hyperbole to say Dallas is 3rd tier in the West, one step above SAS and HOU (level w/ POR, UTA) when the season starts next year w/ or w/o Kyrie.

[Asian62150]

So you do think he needs to win championships for his cards to hold their value?

I agree with ninja. Winning chips will just slowly decelerate his decline relative to everyone else.

Usually hot prospects go through this phase where their stuff becomes so much more expensive relative to established stars. It's hard to compare in basketball because MJ just had the Fleer/Star RCs but look at baseball. Julio's stuff relative to someone like Trout/Pujols/Cabrera is insane. Julio has done so little compared to those guys but his stuff is priced as if he's going to hit .500 this year with 100 HRs and 200 RBIs. But he's the hot prospect that a lot of the collecting public is fawning over.

That's just the cycle of cards. The hot young prospect/toy takes some of the shine away from the previous young prospect. The young guns need to start producing MVPs and chips. If they get in GOAT conversation then they'll probably see a bump again in value as people lock stuff up in their PCs to pass down to future generations.

Look at Luka prices vs. LeBron prices. It's kinda crazy that Luka stuff is where it is compared to LeBron's. Yeah, Luka has time on his side but LeBron has already locked in 4 MVPs and 4 rings. Even vs. Giannis (2 MVPs, 1 ring).

Luka is just 24. He's still got another 1-2 years as the golden child but it's not going to last forever if he doesn't win. If he starts winning soon, people will keep saying he's the Wonder Boy. If he doesn't win, people will point to his whining to refs and his lack of D.

[Makakilo Cards]

I agree with all of that. But am I just imagining Lukaholics dominating the groupthink? I feel like it's more dramatic than the typical golden boy. Like his career lining up with the card bubble just made the hype nonsensical.

[anusinha]

Hes basically the Mike Trout of the NBA, piling up ungodly stats on a team with a dumbass for an owner that cant do anything right.

[NeedChapmans]

Hes basically the Mike Trout of the NBA, piling up ungodly stats on a team with a dumbass for an owner that cant do anything right.

Trout won an MVP in his 4th, 6th & 9th season. Luka value needs that kind of helium if he's not winning games.

[tjforce]

Trout won an MVP in his 4th, 6th & 9th season. Luka value needs that kind of helium if he's not winning games.

I've mentioned it before: 1st team all NBA is enough to keep him afloat this year.

Giannis was 24 when he won his first MVP. LeBron 25. Jokic at 26. Those guys also won either multiple MVPs or titles shortly after.

Which to me means that Luka's got 2 more years after this where 'only 1st team all nba' is enough. The fact he was 1st team all NBA from his second year helps his case quite a bit. But if he gets to the point where he's 27+ years old without an MVP or a ring, then he'll start to get labeled as a guy who can't get it done until he does. Also, by default you'll have someone else getting the hardware and stealing some thunder.

[alias21]

Unfortunately the society you're referring to doesn't exist anymore. It's been supplanted by a society with pedophiles in every echelon of media, sports, government, schools, tik tok, etc.

LOL wut?

[alias21]

65 wins w/ a strong 5 in Capela. That Houston team was a lot better than this Dallas team but a similar mold indeed.

Bottom line as I see it; for Luka value to rise, he either needs to find team success in Dallas (unlikely), or start over somwhere else. Dallas ain't it.

Yeah if it wasn't for the Rockets having a all time worst shooting percentage from 3 in game 7 of 2018 they'd have made the finals. They shot 7-44 and still only lost by 9. 15.9% from 3 on 44 attempts!

[NSGJT]

I've mentioned it before: 1st team all NBA is enough to keep him afloat this year.

Giannis was 24 when he won his first MVP. LeBron 25. Jokic at 26. Those guys also won either multiple MVPs or titles shortly after.

Which to me means that Luka's got 2 more years after this where 'only 1st team all nba' is enough. The fact he was 1st team all NBA from his second year helps his case quite a bit. But if he gets to the point where he's 27+ years old without an MVP or a ring, then he'll start to get labeled as a guy who can't get it done until he does. Also, by default you'll have someone else getting the hardware and stealing some thunder.

LeBron was also in 22 year old season when he dragged a below average to terrible roster to the NBA finals on his back.

I don't think we should be comparing to Bron anyway, but just responding to your last point here on MVPs and well obviously the top tier is Jordan/Bron in the card market as well as the actual sport.

I was reading this converation a few days ago but couldn't post. So I forget exactly what I wanted to say, but I do agree with Chapman here and he said some of what I was going to anyway --- but Luka =/= Mahomes

There's no basis for that comparison other than popularity and obviously both are talented/good.

The reality is that Mahomes was drafted into and cultivated in a very good situation, Andy Reid is one of the best offensive minds this century, the roster was good, he sat year 1, etc.

Where as Luka has been in decent rosters? He's had Porzingis, Barnes early, now Kyrie joined. Admittedly I was super hardcore into the NBA but haven't paid much attention in the past 2-3 years as well...but the Mavs have gone 42-30 and 52-30, etc.

Point is, Luka hasn't accomplished anything.


He's really good, I like him, he's still young. But he's so far away comparatively to Mahomes, it's somewhat apples and oranges anyway, but winning SBs is clearly harder than NBA titles for an individual player as well.

On top of this too, popularity matters the most for cards ultimately. Luka is popular, which is why "face of the NBA" seems odd to me...he already kind of is. He's one of the biggest names right now easily.

[tjforce]

LeBron was also in 22 year old season when he dragged a below average to terrible roster to the NBA finals on his back.

I don't think we should be comparing to Bron anyway, but just responding to your last point here on MVPs and well obviously the top tier is Jordan/Bron in the card market as well as the actual sport.

I was reading this converation a few days ago but couldn't post. So I forget exactly what I wanted to say, but I do agree with Chapman here and he said some of what I was going to anyway --- but Luka =/= Mahomes

There's no basis for that comparison other than popularity and obviously both are talented/good.

The reality is that Mahomes was drafted into and cultivated in a very good situation, Andy Reid is one of the best offensive minds this century, the roster was good, he sat year 1, etc.

Where as Luka has been in decent rosters? He's had Porzingis, Barnes early, now Kyrie joined. Admittedly I was super hardcore into the NBA but haven't paid much attention in the past 2-3 years as well...but the Mavs have gone 42-30 and 52-30, etc.

Point is, Luka hasn't accomplished anything.


He's really good, I like him, he's still young. But he's so far away comparatively to Mahomes, it's somewhat apples and oranges anyway, but winning SBs is clearly harder than NBA titles for an individual player as well.

On top of this too, popularity matters the most for cards ultimately. Luka is popular, which is why "face of the NBA" seems odd to me...he already kind of is. He's one of the biggest names right now easily.

The face of the NBA is still LeBron, then Curry.

LeBron gets the most MVP votes, he gets his own movie, he makes news whenever he does anything. The team is sub-.500 and they still are talked about more than anyone. We know he's not the best anymore, but Fox News isn't getting headlines by calling out Luka, or Jokic, or Giannis. As popular as Luka is, he was 2nd in his position group in NBA all star voting. Last year he was 3rd, behind Morant, which goes to show you how quickly things can change.

And I mean either way. Because if Luka is out there battling Giannis or Tatum in the Finals 3 months from now, a good enough performance might be able to put him over the top as the face of the league, kind of like what Mahomes just did a month ago.

[JWBlue]

I understand your point. But in my all-time draft, I'm taking Tim Duncan over Malone. Easy choice imo.

Speaking off TD.

I am not a hoops collector. Why don't TD's card sell for more?

[Asian62150]

Speaking off TD.

I am not a hoops collector. Why don't TD's card sell for more?

-style was efficient and productive, not necessarily flashy
-laid-back personality
-big men typically don't sell well
-played in one of the smallest markets

But I'm glad his cards are undervalued. His autos do pretty well though. Mainly because they are pretty limited.

[NSGJT]

The face of the NBA is still LeBron, then Curry.

LeBron gets the most MVP votes, he gets his own movie, he makes news whenever he does anything. The team is sub-.500 and they still are talked about more than anyone. We know he's not the best anymore, but Fox News isn't getting headlines by calling out Luka, or Jokic, or Giannis. As popular as Luka is, he was 2nd in his position group in NBA all star voting. Last year he was 3rd, behind Morant, which goes to show you how quickly things can change.

And I mean either way. Because if Luka is out there battling Giannis or Tatum in the Finals 3 months from now, a good enough performance might be able to put him over the top as the face of the league, kind of like what Mahomes just did a month ago.

Well yeah of course, LeBron transcends the entire sport. But he's finally getting older and declining.

Yes Curry as well, but he's 35 years old soon. Sneaky old.

The 3rd guy is probably Luka. It ain't Giannis. I agree, Luka-Tatum-Giannis is your next 3. Maybe Morant is infamous right now and his name is bigger for obvious (bad) reasons.

Where I disagree is your comparison to Mahomes. Like Mahomes did a month ago? Huh? Mahomes was already the crown prince of the NFL, he was the most popular guy next to Brady. He was extremely exciting on the field and went to 3x AFCCGs and 2x SBs prior to this season. Three AFCCG in a row. 1 ring already won at an early age, what...3 seasons in?

Sure now it makes 4x AFCCG in a row, 3x SB appearances and 2 rings. He's stacking up his legacy, but his popularity? Totally disagree, it's barely changed. I'm a Patriots fan as well, but I'm very objective.

Mahomes right now is on pace to be LeBron to Brady's Jordan. Luka is basically Joe Burrow or Josh Allen as it stands.

[tjforce]

Well yeah of course, LeBron transcends the entire sport. But he's finally getting older and declining.

Yes Curry as well, but he's 35 years old soon. Sneaky old.

The 3rd guy is probably Luka. It ain't Giannis. I agree, Luka-Tatum-Giannis is your next 3. Maybe Morant is infamous right now and his name is bigger for obvious (bad) reasons.

Where I disagree is your comparison to Mahomes. Like Mahomes did a month ago? Huh? Mahomes was already the crown prince of the NFL, he was the most popular guy next to Brady. He was extremely exciting on the field and went to 3x AFCCGs and 2x SBs prior to this season. Three AFCCG in a row. 1 ring already won at an early age, what...3 seasons in?

Sure now it makes 4x AFCCG in a row, 3x SB appearances and 2 rings. He's stacking up his legacy, but his popularity? Totally disagree, it's barely changed. I'm a Patriots fan as well, but I'm very objective.

Mahomes right now is on pace to be LeBron to Brady's Jordan. Luka is basically Joe Burrow or Josh Allen as it stands.

I agree mostly with you, but just like LeBron is a bigger name, even if he isn't the best anymore, Brady was the league's poster boy until he retired and Mahomes made no doubt about it. I don't think we're too far off on our viewpoints.

You're also right on the fact that there's a void being fought over by Luka/Giannis/Tatum/Jokic.... hell, even Zion if he could ever stay healthy.

As much as I can say that Luka is the odds on favorite, it hasn't been obtained yet, and whoever you'd rank 1st out of that group doesn't have much room over the next guy, unlike in the NFL right now.

[Moneychrome20]

Well yeah of course, LeBron transcends the entire sport. But he's finally getting older and declining.

Yes Curry as well, but he's 35 years old soon. Sneaky old.

The 3rd guy is probably Luka. It ain't Giannis. I agree, Luka-Tatum-Giannis is your next 3. Maybe Morant is infamous right now and his name is bigger for obvious (bad) reasons.

Where I disagree is your comparison to Mahomes. Like Mahomes did a month ago? Huh? Mahomes was already the crown prince of the NFL, he was the most popular guy next to Brady. He was extremely exciting on the field and went to 3x AFCCGs and 2x SBs prior to this season. Three AFCCG in a row. 1 ring already won at an early age, what...3 seasons in?

Sure now it makes 4x AFCCG in a row, 3x SB appearances and 2 rings. He's stacking up his legacy, but his popularity? Totally disagree, it's barely changed. I'm a Patriots fan as well, but I'm very objective.

Mahomes right now is on pace to be LeBron to Brady's Jordan. Luka is basically Joe Burrow or Josh Allen as it stands.

What world do you live in that giannis isn’t over luka for face of the league ? Yeah you’re right you haven’t been paying much attention

[NSGJT]

What world do you live in that giannis isn’t over luka for face of the league ? Yeah you’re right you haven’t been paying much attention

It isn't about perceived talent or hardware, it's about popularity. I'm not saying Giannis isn't up there, but him not speaking english well is a big factor, less personality I'd say. I saw him win that title, kind of a weak title imo but still he has that championship.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0135s_cz,%2Fm%2F0pdnj7h

Just one data point here, popularity based on google searches. The only time where Giannis has out performed Luka is recently during the all-star game. Which is obvious because Giannis was a team captain and Luka had 4 points in the game.