Who will history criticize as being the biggest super team hopper ever?

[hermanotarjeta]

See poll.

This may be a manifestation of the modern day free agent market.

I wonder if any player will ever be loyal to one team for their entire career ever again?

Honorable mentions : Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook.

[SupermanBrandon]

Durant's move to the GSW may be one of the weakest moves in the history of sports, EVER

[oldgoldy97]

Horry.

[hermanotarjeta]

I am torn between KD and Bron on this one. Ironically, if the suns win it all this year, I would lean towards KD, especially since the Lakers have been stinking it up. But Bron is so guilty of this one too.

I needed this poll for public reflection.

[pingbling23]

Heat were a super team. Cavs were not. Lakers were not when Lebron went there and adding AD doesn’t make them a super team. Kd joined a 73 win team that was coming off 2 straight finals with one win. Kd and kyrie were not a super team but when harden arrived it was. Health just derailed that experiment. Now kd joins an established suns team that has underachieved. At least Lebron builds his teams instead of joining already made contenders. The heat had one missed playoffs and 2 first round exits before the super team was built. The cavs hadn’t made the playoffs since Lebron left when he came back. The lakers hadn’t made the playoffs in 5 years before Lebron came.

[scotthenrichs]

When someone’s most famous meme is about them going to a new superteam, they’re the winner (my next chapter…)

[rainmaker]

durant is as beta as they come.

[GOATcards]

"Criticize" players for improving their chances of winning rings?

Here I thought the number of rings a player won, without consideration for context, determined greatness? Isn't it why Karl Malone is dissed for not being a winner? Isn't it why Chef Curry's 4 rings are lauded so? Or why MJ's no-rings before Pippen matured and/or Kukoc added are treated as a knock against his greatness? Or why Kareem's 6 rings are always cited in his favor in GOAT arguments (when he was Finals MVP for all of 2.5 of them)? Or how Kobe is credited with 5 rings when he was fortunate to be teamed with an MVP in his prime for 3 of them?

IOW, why the blatantly obvious hypocrisy?

[pcptrade]

"Criticize" players for improving their chances of winning rings?

Here I thought the number of rings a player won, without consideration for context, determined greatness? Isn't it why Karl Malone is dissed for not being a winner? Isn't it why Chef Curry's 4 rings are lauded so? Or why MJ's no-rings before Pippen matured and/or Kukoc added are treated as a knock against his greatness? Or why Kareem's 6 rings are always cited in his favor in GOAT arguments (when he was Finals MVP for all of 2.5 of them)? Or how Kobe is credited with 5 rings when he was fortunate to be teamed with an MVP in his prime for 3 of them?

IOW, why the blatantly obvious hypocrisy?

What else did you expect at BO?:p
If Lebron had stayed at Cleveland throughout his career and won only one ring, I wonder where he would be in the ranking of "greatest players of all time". Very unlikely to be in the top 5 (of non-BO list) in my opinion. He would be labeled as a STAT padder like he is now with only one ring. He knew what he had to do. Haters gonna hate.

[JRX]

Durant cemented himself being known as the bus rider after what he pulled with the nets.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[BGT Masters]

Durant or LeBron flip a coin.

[drobfan8]

What else did you expect at BO?:p
If Lebron had stayed at Cleveland throughout his career and won only one ring, I wonder where he would be in the ranking of "greatest players of all time". Very unlikely to be in the top 5 (of non-BO list) in my opinion. He would be labeled as a STAT padder like he is now with only one ring. He knew what he had to do. Haters gonna hate.

Terrible comment from a one eyed Bron crotch sniffer

Could LeBron have won 4 titles with Cleveland? Absolutely. But he was gutless and ran.

Why couldn't he have gotten D. Wade and Bosh to Cleveland? :p

Just hilarious.

[drobfan8]

I voted LeBron because he started it amongst this era.

But KD is definitely up there.

Although if anybody wanted LeBron he would probably try to leave the Lakers also, but nobody does. :p

And that's the truth

[eastbayak]

I voted LeBron because he started it amongst this era.

But KD is definitely up there.

Although if anybody wanted LeBron he would probably try to leave the Lakers also, but nobody does. :p

And that's the truth

The question didn't ask who "started" it though. It asked who'd be "known" as the biggest super team hopper.

[wood minis]

Durant's move to the GSW may be one of the weakest moves in the history of sports, EVER

Agreed. And LeBron returning to Cleveland and winning one there one of the strongest.

[pcptrade]

Terrible comment from a one eyed Bron crotch sniffer

Could LeBron have won 4 titles with Cleveland? Absolutely. But he was gutless and ran.

Why couldn't he have gotten D. Wade and Bosh to Cleveland? :p

Just hilarious.

:cry: What I learned from BO is some members are obsessed with the thoughts of sniffing/cradling/hugging private parts. Psychological projection I suppose.

EDIT: My fault. I did not know that you are one of the guys who voted MJ is as famous as Michael Jackson in the entire planet. I have to go back to that thread from now on before I decide who should I reply to. As Mark Twain once said "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference".

[Makakilo Cards]

History will say KD and forget Lebron did the exact same thing first.

[hairyangryfella]

It's obviously KD, and I thought this post was simply a shot at him.

Lebron started this/created a bunch, but didn't exactly hop to them like KD has multiple times now. So they are two different things.

[hairyangryfella]

Honorable mentions : Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook.

Come on now.
Westbrook has been traded multiple times, I'm guessing not exactly at his request, so he's nowhere near a 'hopper' simply for playing for multiple teams.

[oplum29]

Durant's move to the GSW may be one of the weakest moves in the history of sports, EVER

yes it was. but it's second to Lebron's jump to Miami.

[drobfan8]

The question didn't ask who "started" it though. It asked who'd be "known" as the biggest super team hopper.

Hmmm. Probably still LeBron then. KD got traded to Phoenix and did sign to BKN without them having won a dammed thing.

:cry: What I learned from BO is some members are obsessed with the thoughts of sniffing/cradling/hugging private parts. Psychological projection I suppose.

EDIT: My fault. I did not know that you are one of the guys who voted MJ is as famous as Michael Jackson in the entire planet. I have to go back to that thread from now on before I decide who should I reply to. As Mark Twain once said "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference".

Meh, I didn't realise such a stupid thread would come back to haunt me so badly.

I have 4 Jordan kards and 0 Michael Jackson cassettes so in my world out here with the Kangaroos and no internet it was Jordan.

Now that I think seriously about it, I realise that I still don't care. :p

Soz your hero is a massive p*ssy and has always been one.

[6celtics33]

KD’s move to the warriors was the weakest competitively. And even weirder that they played and won like they did and he couldn’t wait to leave it to play with Kyrie and harden. Lots of bad decisions there.

However that only was allowed to happen because the league didn’t phase in the salary cap increases and the weird unusual bump from the tv deal.

Does anyone think for a second if the heat after losing to Dallas could’ve then just added Chris Paul at pg or Dwight at center that they would’ve what? Said no that wouldn’t be fair.

Both these guys want it as easy as possible and all the team hopping around the league is a reaction to what they’ve done and started.

So whoever wins the vote, good job and thanks to both of you. You both did it.

[pcptrade]

Soz your hero is a massive p*ssy and has always been one.

:cry: My hero? Good try! I own basketball cards (MJ, LeBron, Curry etc), baseball, football, soccer and tennis cards. None of the players I collect or invest in are my heros. My parents are my only heroes! Continue with the hot discussion....

[GOATcards]

:cry: What I learned from BO is some members are obsessed with the thoughts of sniffing/cradling/hugging private parts. Psychological projection I suppose.


also riding, according to the Ja thread

Someone mentioned Bron coming back to CLE as a strong move. Would he come back if the '15 equivalents of Delonte West and Andy Varejao were there instead of Kyrie and Kevin Love?

Anyway, I'm unclear as to why players can be denigrated or discounted all of a sudden for winning championships in one way rather than another. It's all hypocrisy and people seem to love being hypocrites and wink while they're doing it.

KD earned two Finals MVPs so it isn't like it was handed to him on a platter. Right? Sure, his team's Elo rating peaked above 1850, and so did MJ's Bulls at their most stacked. And?

[GOATcards]

Hmmm. Probably still LeBron then. KD got traded to Phoenix and did sign to BKN without them having won a dammed thing.


We know, we know, his toe being on the line against MIL is entirely his fault, having his #2 and #3 options unavailable had nothing to do with it (and if that BKN team won the ring it'd still be discounted, while the hypocrites can pretend that a 1850 Elo Bulls team is completely the real deal whereas this isn't). Besides, I head heard that building superteams to win chips was easy, a given, health concerns and whatnot needn't enter the picture.

[Yankees2020]

Didn't work out how you wanted it to...... :D

DURANT!

[GOATcards]

we don't even have agreement on what makes a superteam, that makes for a lot of gerrymandering of definitions to exclude or include whatever player/team a person wishes to pump/bash

[gomiamigo]

It's obviously Lebron, even tho his fanbois will try to pretend the Nets and Suns, who have never won anything, were superteams.

CLE gave Lebron everything he wanted and he still punked out and left to join a superteam, after quitting on the Cavs in 2 different playoff games, most famously vs BOS.

KD left OKC because Presti stupidly traded James Harden to keep Ibaka[!!] and ruined their chance at greatness, and Westbrook refused to pass the ball in key situations to the best player on the team and all-time great shooter [50/38/89% career] and scorer.

Note: since then *nobody* very good has wanted to play with Westbrook [for very long]. Dude has been traded every year since he signed his max deal. Every year.

[JRX]

Outside of maybe miami, it seemed more like Lebron created the super teams. KD is more of the tag along.

[yiguiri2002]

LeBron and KD are on a class on their own when it comes to this, no one else is close.

And even there, KD is well above him. At least LeBron tried to form them (and succeeded while doing so), KD joins them and when he tries to form one, doesn't win.

[GOATcards]

what's a superteam :popcorn:

[Braswell10]

It's obviously Lebron, even tho his fanbois will try to pretend the Nets and Suns, who have never won anything, were superteams.

CLE gave Lebron everything he wanted and he still punked out and left to join a superteam, after quitting on the Cavs in 2 different playoff games, most famously vs BOS.

KD left OKC because Presti stupidly traded James Harden to keep Ibaka[!!] and ruined their chance at greatness, and Westbrook refused to pass the ball in key situations to the best player on the team and all-time great shooter [50/38/89% career] and scorer.

Note: since then *nobody* very good has wanted to play with Westbrook [for very long]. Dude has been traded every year since he signed his max deal. Every year.

Yikes this is bad

[Easycards]

I voted LeBron because he started it amongst this era.

But KD is definitely up there.

Although if anybody wanted LeBron he would probably try to leave the Lakers also, but nobody does. :p

And that's the truth

Right before Bron went to Miami you had the Celtics super trio, and a couple of iterations of Lakers super teams. Overlooking the Celtics super team that immediately preceded the Heat team and overlapped with it some seems like a total oversight. The Heat practically copied the method from Boston.

This entire thread seems like a master class is recency bias.

[NSGJT]

If anyone answers anything except Kevin Durant they are biased and wrong. Lot of Bron haters out there, let's be real bro...

Durant JOINED a team that broke the regular season win record and won a title. That went to back to back finals. That is absurd, there's no precedent for that. It's actually a very odd case study to see Kevin Durant who is by all means one of the best scorers ever, one of the best players ever...

Who was unable to win a title with OKC which was an organic super team with Harden-Westbrook, then Westbrook. Probably due to...Westbrook clearly, being overrated and not affecting winning that much positively.

Imagine if LeBron went to GS and just stayed there instead of KD? What would have happened, he would have won 6 titles in a row after the CLE title and he would have 10+ rings right now. At least KD had the integrity to leave and try to win on his own in BKN

[pingbling23]

Yikes this is bad

Calls out Lebron fanbois ignoring the fact he’s a Durant fanboi. History doesn’t really criticize Lebron for forming a super team in Miami. After what he went through in Cleveland and how there were other stacked teams in the league, it’s what had to be done for a chance to win. Durant going to the warriors was a cheat code. I don’t fault Durant for trying something in Brooklyn but I think it was weak to demand a trade and now he lands in an even better spot in Phoenix. Healthy they were a finals team. Cp3 is old but he doesn’t have to score now, but he’s deadly when he can just shoot high percentage shots all night and he’s still a great facilitator. Ayton is a solid big and booker can drop 50 any night. Suns will be tough to beat if they can still defend.

[yiguiri2002]

Right before Bron went to Miami you had the Celtics super trio, and a couple of iterations of Lakers super teams. Overlooking the Celtics super team that immediately preceded the Heat team and overlapped with it some seems like a total oversight. The Heat practically copied the method from Boston.

This entire thread seems like a master class is recency bias.

Garnett and Allen were traded and everyone was over 30 when the season started.

If anyone answers anything except Kevin Durant they are biased and wrong. Lot of Bron haters out there, let's be real bro...

Durant JOINED a team that broke the regular season win record and won a title. That went to back to back finals. That is absurd, there's no precedent for that. It's actually a very odd case study to see Kevin Durant who is by all means one of the best scorers ever, one of the best players ever...

Who was unable to win a title with OKC which was an organic super team with Harden-Westbrook, then Westbrook. Probably due to...Westbrook clearly, being overrated and not affecting winning that much positively.

Imagine if LeBron went to GS and just stayed there instead of KD? What would have happened, he would have won 6 titles in a row after the CLE title and he would have 10+ rings right now. At least KD had the integrity to leave and try to win on his own in BKN

There's like 2 people who thinks LeBron is above KD when it comes to this, but sure.

[NSGJT]

There's like 2 people who thinks LeBron is above KD when it comes to this, but sure.

Well the poll has 41 votes for Durant and LeBron is in 2nd by a mile with 33 votes. So that's just completely wrong.

It's pretty easy to understand that it's a bunch of older guys who love Jordan projecting their insecurities about the fact that LeBron is 1B (imo) or a close 2nd to him, or whatever it may be. Lots of delusional NBA takes from what I've seen. But yeah, 2 != 33

[JRX]

Well the poll has 41 votes for Durant and LeBron is in 2nd by a mile with 33 votes. So that's just completely wrong.

It's pretty easy to understand that it's a bunch of older guys who love Jordan projecting their insecurities about the fact that LeBron is 1B (imo) or a close 2nd to him, or whatever it may be. Lots of delusional NBA takes from what I've seen. But yeah, 2 != 33

MJ didn't jump ship to the Pistons or Lakers after 1990 and he also didn't collude to end up on the same team as say Barkley and Malone. That's always going to be a knock against Lebron, but more so KD.

[drobfan8]

Right before Bron went to Miami you had the Celtics super trio, and a couple of iterations of Lakers super teams. Overlooking the Celtics super team that immediately preceded the Heat team and overlapped with it some seems like a total oversight. The Heat practically copied the method from Boston.

This entire thread seems like a master class is recency bias.

I've always found where people go wrong with this comparison is they don't factor in at what stages of career these guys were at.

KG was in his 13th season
Ray Allen in his 12th

Bron and the gang literally teamed up in their prime. That had never happened before.

I agree the Heat stole that template, but were younger and in their prime. KG and Ray were not.

Man if it was 03 KG and Ray, that team would have won multiple titles with Pierce.

Is LeBron smart for doing it? Sure. But he deserves the flak.

KD is a cupcake also. But I also blame the commissioner for that. Should never have allowed the cap to change like that.

[eastbayak]

MJ didn't jump ship to the Pistons or Lakers after 1990 and he also didn't collude to end up on the same team as say Barkley and Malone. That's always going to be a knock against Lebron, but more so KD.

Well, not only was competition inferior back then, Pippen signed a team-friendly contract that greatly benefited the Bulls (and consequently, MJ).

It's crazy to know that a top 50 all-time NBA player only had the 122nd highest salary in 1997-98 (11th professional year).

Pippen's contract:

1987-88 Chicago Bulls NBA $725,000
1988-89 Chicago Bulls NBA $575,000
1989-90 Chicago Bulls NBA $765,000
1990-91 Chicago Bulls NBA $765,000
1991-92 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,770,000
1992-93 Chicago Bulls NBA $3,425,000
1993-94 Chicago Bulls NBA $3,075,000
1994-95 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,225,000
1995-96 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,925,000
1996-97 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,250,000
1997-98 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,775,000

1997-98 NBA salaries:

1. Michael Jordan $33,140,000 $61,258,556
2. Patrick Ewing $20,500,000 $37,893,796
3. Horace Grant $14,285,714 $26,406,825
4. Shaquille O'Neal $12,857,143 $23,766,144
5. David Robinson $12,397,440 $22,916,393
6. Alonzo Mourning $11,254,800 $20,804,248
7. Juwan Howard $11,250,000 $20,795,375
8. Hakeem Olajuwon $11,156,000 $20,621,618
9. Gary Payton $10,514,688 $19,436,167
10. Dikembe Mutombo $9,615,187 $17,773,460
11. Reggie Miller $9,031,850 $16,695,174
12. Chris Webber $9,000,000 $16,636,300
13. Shawn Kemp $8,600,000 $15,896,909
14. Larry Johnson $8,460,714 $15,639,442
15. Derrick Coleman $8,002,800 $14,792,998
16. Kevin Johnson $8,000,000 $14,787,822
17. Latrell Sprewell $7,770,000 $14,362,672
18. Anfernee Hardaway $7,580,000 $14,011,462
19. Elden Campbell $7,000,000 $12,939,344
20. Danny Manning $6,833,333 $12,631,264
21. Allan Houston $6,000,000 $11,090,867
21. Robert Horry $6,000,000 $11,090,867
23. Shawn Bradley $5,940,000 $10,979,958
24. Grant Hill $5,850,000 $10,813,595
25. Otis Thorpe $5,700,000 $10,536,323
26. Glenn Robinson $5,510,000 $10,185,112
27. Tom Gugliotta $5,500,000 $10,166,628
27. Clyde Drexler $5,500,000 $10,166,628
29. Steve Smith $5,400,000 $9,981,780
30. Sean Elliott $5,333,333 $9,858,547
31. Dale Davis $5,273,333 $9,747,639
32. Jason Kidd $5,223,333 $9,655,215
33. Karl Malone $5,118,578 $9,461,578
34. John Starks $5,112,500 $9,450,343
35. A.C. Green $5,095,088 $9,418,157
36. Christian Laettner $5,050,000 $9,334,813
37. Kenny Anderson $5,010,000 $9,260,874
38. John Stockton $5,000,000 $9,242,389
38. Brian Grant $5,000,000 $9,242,389
40. Vlade Divac $4,833,333 $8,934,309
41. Tim Hardaway $4,800,000 $8,872,693
42. Glen Rice $4,702,000 $8,691,542
43. Harvey Grant $4,671,875 $8,635,857
44. Jim Jackson $4,600,000 $8,502,998
45. Charles Smith $4,576,343 $8,459,268
46. Toni Kukoc $4,560,000 $8,429,059
46. Ron Harper $4,560,000 $8,429,059
48. John Williams $4,550,000 $8,410,574
49. Antonio Davis $4,500,000 $8,318,150
49. Dennis Rodman $4,500,000 $8,318,150
51. Jamal Mashburn $4,433,334 $8,194,919
52. Kendall Gill $4,400,000 $8,133,302
53. Sherman Douglas $4,297,250 $7,943,371
54. Billy Owens $4,225,200 $7,810,188
55. Isaiah Rider $4,210,000 $7,782,091
56. Jeff Hornacek $4,195,000 $7,754,364
57. Tyrone Hill $4,110,000 $7,597,243
58. Mark Price $4,090,920 $7,561,975
59. Vin Baker $4,064,373 $7,512,903
60. Bison Dele $4,050,000 $7,486,335
61. Bryant Stith $4,030,000 $7,449,365
62. Rony Seikaly $4,002,000 $7,397,608
63. Nick Anderson $4,000,000 $7,393,911
63. Rik Smits $4,000,000 $7,393,911
63. Danny Ferry $4,000,000 $7,393,911
66. Donyell Marshall $3,990,000 $7,375,426
67. PJ Brown $3,844,800 $7,107,027
68. Walt Williams $3,750,000 $6,931,791
68. Stanley Roberts $3,750,000 $6,931,791
68. Brian Shaw $3,750,000 $6,931,791
71. Lionel Simmons $3,716,500 $6,869,867
72. Dell Curry $3,660,000 $6,765,428
73. Chris Gatling $3,656,400 $6,758,774
74. LaPhonso Ellis $3,650,000 $6,746,944
75. Olden Polynice $3,610,000 $6,673,005
76. Calbert Cheaney $3,600,000 $6,654,520
76. Jim McIlvaine $3,600,000 $6,654,520
76. Derrick McKey $3,600,000 $6,654,520
79. Stojko Vrankovic $3,580,000 $6,617,550
80. Bobby Hurley $3,552,000 $6,565,793
81. Sharone Wright $3,500,000 $6,469,672
81. Nate McMillan $3,500,000 $6,469,672
81. Wesley Person $3,500,000 $6,469,672
81. Dee Brown $3,500,000 $6,469,672
85. Anthony Mason $3,471,500 $6,416,990
86. Rod Strickland $3,450,000 $6,377,248
87. Dana Barros $3,400,000 $6,284,824
88. Sam Perkins $3,370,000 $6,229,370
89. Loy Vaught $3,350,000 $6,192,400
90. Detlef Schrempf $3,333,333 $6,161,592
91. Ken Norman $3,332,000 $6,159,128
92. Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf $3,300,000 $6,099,976
93. Robert Pack $3,240,000 $5,989,068
94. Mark Jackson $3,200,000 $5,915,129
95. Luc Longley $3,184,900 $5,887,217
96. Joe Smith $3,165,160 $5,850,728
97. Allen Iverson $3,128,640 $5,783,221
98. Hersey Hawkins $3,124,100 $5,774,829
99. Chris Childs $3,120,000 $5,767,250
100. Arvydas Sabonis $3,080,000 $5,693,311
101. Chris Morris $3,000,000 $5,545,433
101. Avery Johnson $3,000,000 $5,545,433
101. Mitch Richmond $3,000,000 $5,545,433
101. Chris Mills $3,000,000 $5,545,433
101. Joe Dumars $3,000,000 $5,545,433
101. Mookie Blaylock $3,000,000 $5,545,433
107. Tim Duncan $2,967,840 $5,485,986
108. Chris Mullin $2,941,500 $5,437,297
109. Dennis Scott $2,920,000 $5,397,555
110. Lamond Murray $2,900,000 $5,360,585
110. Bobby Phills $2,900,000 $5,360,585
112. Antonio McDyess $2,876,640 $5,317,405
113. Bryon Russell $2,857,144 $5,281,367
114. Scott Williams $2,850,000 $5,268,161
114. Charles Oakley $2,850,000 $5,268,161
116. Pooh Richardson $2,820,710 $5,214,019
117. Dan Majerle $2,820,000 $5,212,707
118. Stacey Augmon $2,800,000 $5,175,737
118. Clarence Weatherspoon $2,800,000 $5,175,737
120. Marcus Camby $2,799,240 $5,174,333
121. Armen Gilliam $2,780,400 $5,139,507
122. Micheal Williams $2,775,000 $5,129,526
122. Scottie Pippen $2,775,000 $5,129,526

[starfox]

What else did you expect at BO?:p
If Lebron had stayed at Cleveland throughout his career and won only one ring, I wonder where he would be in the ranking of "greatest players of all time". Very unlikely to be in the top 5 (of non-BO list) in my opinion. He would be labeled as a STAT padder like he is now with only one ring. He knew what he had to do. Haters gonna hate.Best post so far, but some still won't see the truth.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Nomad]

This entire thread seems like a master class is recency bias.

There was once a player who won 11 titles during a 13-year playing career. Superteam at least.

[pcptrade]

It's pretty easy to understand that it's a bunch of older guys who love Jordan projecting their insecurities about the fact that LeBron is 1B (imo) or a close 2nd to him, or whatever it may be. Lots of delusional NBA takes from what I've seen.

BO Tamakeri gang is going to come after you:p

https://media1.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif[/QUOTE]

[BGT Masters]

Well, not only was competition inferior back then, Pippen signed a team-friendly contract that greatly benefited the Bulls (and consequently, MJ).

It's crazy to know that a top 50 all-time NBA player only had the 122nd highest salary in 1997-98 (11th professional year).

Pippen's contract:

1987-88 Chicago Bulls NBA $725,000
1988-89 Chicago Bulls NBA $575,000
1989-90 Chicago Bulls NBA $765,000
1990-91 Chicago Bulls NBA $765,000
1991-92 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,770,000
1992-93 Chicago Bulls NBA $3,425,000
1993-94 Chicago Bulls NBA $3,075,000
1994-95 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,225,000
1995-96 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,925,000
1996-97 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,250,000
1997-98 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,775,000

1997-98 NBA salaries:



Now since your post is quite disingenuous why not post MJs salary his entire career instead of cherry picking when MJ finally got paid. I believe he was only getting $1-$4 a season up until the 96-97 season. He was barely above Pippen all those years before then.

[mc1]

Outside of maybe miami, it seemed more like Lebron created the super teams. KD is more of the tag along.

Nothing super about teaming up with bums and losers.

Bosh = loser
Wade = loser *
Kyrie = loser
KLove = loser
AD = loser

* rigged 2006 Finals win

[ReggieBush22]

Voted LeBron because he started the trend.

He also started the trend for stars to duck the dunk contest. Prior to that, it was EXPECTED that all top tier athletic stars participate in the dunk contest to compete.

Not to mention he also was one of the regular stars to flop consistently.

#NotMyGOAT

[Yankees2020]

If Jordan stayed in the NBA instead of declining, horribly.... He probably would have 5-7 teams under his belt.

[threepointplay]

OK, so let me get this straight.

We are happy for owners and general managers to trade players at the drop of a hat and even demand those lower down the roster to be shipped out of our city, if we feel they are not performing to the level we expect.

Yet the moment a player looks to move to another team we criticise them for being a 'team hopper'?

Cool.

[JRX]

OK, so let me get this straight.

We are happy for owners and general managers to trade players at the drop of a hat and even demand those lower down the roster to be shipped out of our city, if we feel they are not performing to the level we expect.

Yet the moment a player looks to move to another team we criticise them for being a 'team hopper'?

Cool.

Most of these team hoppers quit trying when they make their demands. So yeah, fans shockingly have little love for that.

[Archangel1775]

What you posted:

What everyone really sees:

https://i.imgur.com/ATxEnhZh.jpg

:cry::cry::cry:

[Hellcat]

Easily Lebron. He never won a championship where guys came to him or a team was built around him. Let that sink in. For the clown who posted Kobe gets credit for the first 3 titles like he wasn't just as dominant as Shaq and in some cases more he was closing games out in the Finals while Shaq was on the bench because of foul trouble or because he couldn't make free throws. Man just stop you don't know basketball give it a rest just a hate post.

[pingbling23]

Kobe wasn’t as dominant. Shaq was getting triple teamed in an attempt to slow him down and Kobe was basically left alone to score. It worked out well for Kobe and taught him how to win. He was a great player but he definitely road shaqs coattails for his first 3 titles.

[Hellcat]

Kobe wasn’t as dominant. Shaq was getting triple teamed in an attempt to slow him down and Kobe was basically left alone to score. It worked out well for Kobe and taught him how to win. He was a great player but he definitely road shaqs coattails for his first 3 titles.
Do yourslef a favor and go watch fhe 3-peat another clown statement. Shaq won nothing until Kobe came along what an ignorant post. He had Penny couldn't win jack but with Kobe a 3-peat. Shaq was never triple teamed are you really this dumb?! Kobe's on Mount Rushmore and Shaq is nowhere to be found just stop.

[pingbling23]

61% thought kds move was worse when he went to the warriors. Kd has since requested trades from the warriors and the nets but this poll is closer lol. https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1019385

[JRX]

Easily Lebron. He never won a championship where guys came to him or a team was built around him. Let that sink in. For the clown who posted Kobe gets credit for the first 3 titles like he wasn't just as dominant as Shaq and in some cases more he was closing games out in the Finals while Shaq was on the bench because of foul trouble or because he couldn't make free throws. Man just stop you don't know basketball give it a rest just a hate post.

Lebron is a terrible GM much like Michael is a terrible owner.

[hermanotarjeta]

OK, so let me get this straight.

We are happy for owners and general managers to trade players at the drop of a hat and even demand those lower down the roster to be shipped out of our city, if we feel they are not performing to the level we expect.

Yet the moment a player looks to move to another team we criticise them for being a 'team hopper'?

Cool.

And this, my friends, is the crux of the difference between how MEllennials view life and which players they worship versus others.

MEllennials reward and celebrate those who will serve their own self interests FIRST at the expense of others by leaving their teammates behind.

Whereas Gen-xers will do what they can to IMPROVE their teammates to help their own situation; they make others around them BETTER.

I’m not naming any names here, but there’s a reason why certain players are ahead in the poll. It’s all about HOW you approach your challenges.

You collect who you are.

[pingbling23]

Do yourslef a favor and go watch fhe 3-peat another clown statement. Shaq won nothing until Kobe came along what an ignorant post. He had Penny couldn't win jack but with Kobe a 3-peat. Shaq was never triple teamed are you really this dumb?! Kobe's on Mount Rushmore and Shaq is nowhere to be found just stop.

I watched it live as it happened. I remember shaq being the most dominant force in the league. How can a player be on the Mount Rushmore when they are clearly behind the majority of all time lists? Shaq was and is a better player.

[pingbling23]

Lebron is a terrible GM much like Michael is a terrible owner.

I thought Lebron was a great gm the way he stacks teams and wins a title everywhere he goes?

[JRX]

And this, my friends, is the crux of the difference between how MEllennials view life and which players they worship versus others.

MEllennials reward and celebrate those who will serve their own self interests FIRST at the expense of others by leaving their teammates behind.

Whereas Gen-xers will do what they can to IMPROVE their teammates to help their own situation; they make others around them BETTER.

I’m not naming any names here, but there’s a reason why certain players are ahead in the poll. It’s all about HOW you approach your challenges.

You collect who you are.

Triumphing over adversity versus taking the easy way out. Truly shocking that people would value one above the other.

[JRX]

I thought Lebron was a great gm the way he stacks teams and wins a title everywhere he goes?

His first cavs run says otherwise. Its not like they made moves without his ok and he still quit in that bos series and bolted to miami.

[pingbling23]

His first cavs run says otherwise. Its not like they made moves without his ok and he still quit in that bos series and bolted to miami.

Yeah, I’m sure an 18 year old was given the keys to the franchise and was told to make all business decisions for them.

[Hellcat]

I watched it live as it happened. I remember shaq being the most dominant force in the league. How can a player be on the Mount Rushmore when they are clearly behind the majority of all time lists? Shaq was and is a better player.
Ok smart guy why didn't Shaq win anything until Kobe developed?! He had a nice team when Kobe was a rookie in 96 and years before in Orlando with Penny if he was such a dominating force why no championships to speak of?! They had parts in place but couldn't get over the hump until Kobe became Kobe in LA. So just stop with your ignorant posts.

[JRX]

Ok smart guy why didn't Shaq win anything until Kobe developed?! He had a nice team when Kobe was a rookie in 96 and years before in Orlando with Penny if he was such a dominating force why no championships to speak of?! They had parts in place but couldn't get over the hump until Kobe became Kobe in LA. So just stop with your ignorant posts.

Shaq was lazy and lacked a Jordan style killer instinct. Shaq at full effort / win at any cost mode would have been unstoppable. For whatever reason he refused to shoot free throws granny style, but if he had mastered that, there would have been no way to stop him.

[pingbling23]

Ok smart guy why didn't Shaq win anything until Kobe developed?! He had a nice team when Kobe was a rookie in 96 and years before in Orlando with Penny if he was such a dominating force why no championships to speak of?! They had parts in place but couldn't get over the hump until Kobe became Kobe in LA. So just stop with your ignorant posts.

It’s not a video game. There’s a million factors that go into winning. How many mvps and finals mvps did shaq and kobe have while they played together? Shaq 1/3, kobe 0/0.

[mc1]

And this, my friends, is the crux of the difference between how MEllennials view life and which players they worship versus others.

MEllennials reward and celebrate those who will serve their own self interests FIRST at the expense of others by leaving their teammates behind.

Whereas Gen-xers will do what they can to IMPROVE their teammates to help their own situation; they make others around them BETTER.

I’m not naming any names here, but there’s a reason why certain players are ahead in the poll. It’s all about HOW you approach your challenges.

You collect who you are.

Jordan never would have won a thing without Pippen or Phil. 100% Fact. He was a stat padder that couldnt win until those two showed up.

[rhigh2390]

Jordan never would have won a thing without Pippen or Phil. 100% Fact. He was a stat padder that couldnt win until those two showed up.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/3o7TKxD6awoTUJJ17y/giphy.gif

[rifleman69]

And this, my friends, is the crux of the difference between how MEllennials view life and which players they worship versus others.

MEllennials reward and celebrate those who will serve their own self interests FIRST at the expense of others by leaving their teammates behind.

Whereas Gen-xers will do what they can to IMPROVE their teammates to help their own situation; they make others around them BETTER.

I’m not naming any names here, but there’s a reason why certain players are ahead in the poll. It’s all about HOW you approach your challenges.

You collect who you are.

B-B-B-B-Bingo!

[rifleman69]

Jordan never would have won a thing without Pippen or Phil. 100% Fact. He was a stat padder that couldnt win until those two showed up.

Believe you just proved the OP's point without realizing it.

[6celtics33]

Now since your post is quite disingenuous why not post MJs salary his entire career instead of cherry picking when MJ finally got paid. I believe he was only getting $1-$4 a season up until the 96-97 season. He was barely above Pippen all those years before then.

Because that would not support his agenda. Duh

[BlueXtreme]

Lol at this thread. KD went to the team with the best record the previous season twice now..

[6celtics33]

2000 Finals
Shaq 38ppg 17rpg 4 stocks per game 61%fg
Kobe 16ppg 5rpg 4asts 37% shooting, played 5/6 games

2001 Finals
Shaq 33ppg 16ppg 5assists 4 stocks 57%fg
Kobe 25ppg 8rpg 6assists 42%fg

2002 Finals
Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 4assists 3stocks 60%fg
Kobe 27ppg 6rpg 5assists 51%fg

Shaq mvp all 3 times. Kobe did well the last 2 titles but was clearly in a supportive role. If the Lakers lost the first title then Kobe would be blamed with that performance like one of Lebron’s teammates. And if Kobe was on the Bulls then he would be the reason they won because Jordan couldn’t win without someone giving him 16.

[BostonNut]

If Jordan stayed in the NBA instead of declining, horribly.... He probably would have 5-7 teams under his belt.

Jordan didn’t need to rest every other game. I’d say his decline was well earned.

[6celtics33]

When they went back in 04 Kobe regressed again and averaged 23 on 38% shooting again even though playing 46 minutes per game.

[6celtics33]

So in 7 finals, Kobe shot in the 30s twice and barely missed doing it 2 more times both series against Boston.

[SupermanBrandon]

Lol at this thread. KD went to the team with the best record the previous season twice now..

Its a no brainer for me. Im assuming a lot of the Lebron votes are just people that truly hate Lebron (Im one of them). But Durant made the softest move in the history of sports when he chose to go to Golden State. IN THE HISTORY OF ALL SPORTS!

[BostonNut]

Its a no brainer for me. Im assuming a lot of the Lebron votes are just people that truly hate Lebron (Im one of them). But Durant made the softest move in the history of sports when he chose to go to Golden State. IN THE HISTORY OF ALL SPORTS!

See: Haley, Charles.

[JRX]

KD went to a team that won 67 then 73 games. Lebron teamed up with Wade after he was top 5 in mvp voting back to back years. They're both weak moves, but at least Lebron won with Cleveland. Durant just looks pathetic especially with the whole Nets debacle.

[6celtics33]

I’d change my vote if I could. They’re both insufferable but Durant’s is weaker.

[eastbayak]

I’d change my vote if I could. They’re both insufferable but Durant’s is weaker.

Then why'd you vote LeBron?

[6celtics33]

Then why'd you vote LeBron?

I just said I’d change my vote

I guess I expect more from Lebron. He’s a better player. Joining golden state on its own is weak. The move to Brooklyn and now Phoenix just adds to it for KD. Rarely do any of these moves work out like either of them want or expect.

It’s close either way.

[hermanotarjeta]

I just said I’d change my vote

I guess I expect more from Lebron. He’s a better player. Joining golden state on its own is weak. The move to Brooklyn and now Phoenix just adds to it for KD. Rarely do any of these moves work out like either of them want or expect.

It’s close either way.

It’s not an easy decision and that’s why I made this poll.

In the end, I decided that Durant gets injured too often that it hurts his legacy, it’s almost as if he HAS to move on because he NEEDS others, as a beta.

Bron is a better and healthier player than Durant, and the fact that he CHOOSES to join super teams as an alpha, rather than build a winner internally, ultimately gave him the slight edge.

If the suns fail to win the championship, ironically, history will forget Durant was even on the team.

History will never forget, however, that Bron abandoned his franchises and CHOSE to join future HOFers in his attempts to get rings.

At least I am confident history will forget that awful commercial where he is outshined by a crab - he can’t even get a human actor to join him, LOL.

[BlueXtreme]

It’s not an easy decision and that’s why I made this poll.

In the end, I decided that Durant gets injured too often that it hurts his legacy, it’s almost as if he HAS to move on because he NEEDS others, as a beta.

Bron is a better and healthier player than Durant, and the fact that he CHOOSES to join super teams as an alpha, rather than build a winner internally, ultimately gave him the slight edge.

If the suns fail to win the championship, ironically, history will forget Durant was even on the team.

History will never forget, however, that Bron abandoned his franchises and CHOSE to join future HOFers in his attempts to get rings.

At least I am confident history will forget that awful commercial where he is outshined by a crab - he can’t even get a human actor to join him, LOL.


What already made superteam did LeBron join? I don’t remember him joining a 67 win or 73 win team. And KD did it when he wasn’t injury prone like he is now.

[GOATcards]

B-B-B-B-Bingo!Some of us don't mind hopping around teams to chase rings. Do Millennials hop jobs more than Boomers because of bad work ethic or lousy loyalty or is it more a matter of economic necessity in these times?

What many of us do mind is falling short in the effort dept, as Shaqtin reels suggest.

Bron won nearly as many rings as might be won in these times, aside from 2011. Also I figure that someone owes someone a ring for injuries to the losing sides in 2015 and 2020. I can only assume that means GSW owes MIA a ring lol

Sent from my V350C using Tapatalk

[GOATcards]

Because that would not support his agenda. DuhNow post how much Mike and Scottie made from endorsements

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[hermanotarjeta]

What already made superteam did LeBron join? I don’t remember him joining a 67 win or 73 win team. And KD did it when he wasn’t injury prone like he is now.

The Miami Heat.

Bron and KD get a push for those.

That’s why it’s so close.

[GOATcards]

KD went to a team that won 67 then 73 games. Lebron teamed up with Wade after he was top 5 in mvp voting back to back years. They're both weak moves, but at least Lebron won with Cleveland. Durant just looks pathetic especially with the whole Nets debacle.Again that toe on the line thing with no 2nd and 3rd options, yeah just pathetic

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[BlueXtreme]

The Miami Heat.

Bron and KD get a push for those.

That’s why it’s so close.

The Miami Heat won 67 games and had the best record in the NBA the prior year to him joining?

[hermanotarjeta]

The Miami Heat won 67 games and had the best record in the NBA the prior year to him joining?

And what is the significance of the 73 win team? They didn’t even win the finals that year.

Both moves by KD and Bron were horrendous and should be looked down upon, equally.

[pingbling23]

And what is the significance of the 73 win team? They didn’t even win the finals that year.

Both moves by KD and Bron were horrendous and should be looked down upon, equally.

That’s comparing speeding and murder. Yeah both are crimes so they are equal.

[BlueXtreme]

And what is the significance of the 73 win team? They didn’t even win the finals that year.

Both moves by KD and Bron were horrendous and should be looked down upon, equally.

Because it’s the whole story that matters and not part of it? He’s done it twice now. Went to the team with the best record already.. twice. It’s not equal.

[pcptrade]

Its a no brainer for me. Im assuming a lot of the Lebron votes are just people that truly hate Lebron (Im one of them). But Durant made the softest move in the history of sports when he chose to go to Golden State. IN THE HISTORY OF ALL SPORTS!

Create a thread that discusses something negative about a player and include LeBron in the poll. Some will vote for LeBron even though they know there is another player who is worse than Lebron in the poll. I bet if you create a thread discussing players and their gambling issues or rape accusations and throw in LeBron's name in the poll, some will vote for LeBron over MJ and Kobe. That's the beauty of BO;). That's how much some people's cognitive reasoning is blinded by hatred. Imagine having to talk negative about someone (any person) everyday so that it makes them feel better and have a sense of purpose in life. Just think about it. It is truly pathetic. If they put the same time and energy in showing love and affection to their loved ones and others, perhaps they will not be this miserable.:)

[JRX]

That’s comparing speeding and murder. Yeah both are crimes so they are equal.

You had the back to back mvp / unquestioned alpha of the league jump ship to join another back to back top 5 mvp's team. That will forever be looked at as a weak move by Lebron. If Wade forced a trade to cle and bosh signed there, people would rip Wade as weak, but nobody would have questioned Lebron.

[BlueXtreme]

You had the back to back mvp / unquestioned alpha of the league jump ship to join another back to back top 5 mvp's team. That will forever be looked at as a weak move by Lebron. If Wade forced a trade to cle and bosh signed there, people would rip Wade as weak, but nobody would have questioned Lebron.

Now not only do personal accolades matter. But an almost? A top 5? So to not shift goalposts. Since everything is team success when it suites any argument against LeBron. Let’s stick with that.
KD jumped to the the team with the best record twice. And one of them the most winning record of all time.

Even if it’s weak. It’s NOT that weak.

[GOATcards]

Create a thread that discusses something negative about a player and include LeBron in the poll. Some will vote for LeBron even though they know there is another player who is worse than Lebron in the poll. I bet if you create a thread discussing players and their gambling issues or rape accusations and throw in LeBron's name in the poll, some will vote for LeBron over MJ and Kobe. That's the beauty of BO;). That's how much some people's cognitive reasoning is blinded by hatred. Imagine having to talk negative about someone (any person) everyday so that it makes them feel better and have a sense of purpose in life while the person they hate is leading a happy life. Just think about it. It is truly pathetic. If they put the same time and energy in showing love and affection to their loved ones and others, perhaps they will not be this miserable.:)They're full of hatred and jealousy ;)

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[hermanotarjeta]

Because it’s the whole story that matters and not part of it? He’s done it twice now. Went to the team with the best record already.. twice. It’s not equal.

History is not going to remember the disaster/unsuccessful superteams.

If the Suns win the title this year, I will change my vote to Durant, I mentioned that in the fourth post in this thread.

But my expectations for Lebron have always been higher, Durant has already hurt his legacy even without team hopping due to his frequent injuries. If Durant never wins another ring again, people will forget, history will forget that he even hopped multiple times. His only sore thumb will be joining the warriors if he never wins again.

[Miz]

Super team hopper won’t be a term recognized by history. Chips will be remembered by history. Nothing else

[JRX]

Now not only do personal accolades matter. But an almost? A top 5? So to not shift goalposts. Since everything is team success when it suites any argument against LeBron. Let’s stick with that.
KD jumped to the the team with the best record twice. And one of them the most winning record of all time.

Even if it’s weak. It’s NOT that weak.

I voted for KD, but they're both weak though I agree that KD looks even more pathetic.

[hermanotarjeta]

I voted for KD, but they're both weak though I agree that KD looks even more pathetic.

LOL, the poll didn’t ask about the most pathetic player in NBA history.

[JRX]

Do people consider Lebron going back to Cle super team hopping? Miami was finished and Cle had Kyrie so it sort of fits, but I think he gets a pass for that one since it was his team originally.

[Miz]

Has there been a single team since the “super team era” that has dominated with non competitive basketball to a championship? I don’t think so. Maybe the first Warriors chip with KD. Super team is a myth like chupacabra. Every playoff has been competitive and a dog fight. Knocking down players for joining teams to improve chances at winning at the highest level is just a form of hating.

[hermanotarjeta]

Do people consider Lebron going back to Cle super team hopping? Miami was finished and Cle had Kyrie so it sort of fits, but I think he gets a pass for that one since it was his team originally.

It was a PR move by Lebron for sure and shouldn’t get a pass. Don’t forget Olympic team member Kevin Love, either.

[hermanotarjeta]

Has there been a single team since the “super team era” that has dominated with non competitive basketball to a championship? I don’t think so. Maybe the first Warriors chip with KD. Super team is a myth like chupacabra. Every playoff has been competitive and a dog fight. Knocking down players for joining teams to improve chances at winning at the highest level is just a form of hating.

That sounds like MEllennial logic, bro.

[JRX]

Has there been a single team since the “super team era” that has dominated with non competitive basketball to a championship? I don’t think so. Maybe the first Warriors chip with KD. Super team is a myth like chupacabra. Every playoff has been competitive and a dog fight. Knocking down players for joining teams to improve chances at winning at the highest level is just a form of hating.

That first year of KD in GS they won 67, Spurs were 61, next highest total was Hou with 55. They went on to go 16-1 in the playoffs.

In Portland sweep, 12, 29, 6, 25
In Jazz sweep they won by 12, 11, 11, 26
In the Spurs sweep they won by 2, 36, 12, and 14
In Finals vs Cavs, 22, 19, 5, -21 (only loss), 9

So in there 16 wins, 4 were within 10 points. I'd consider that dominant.

[GOATcards]

Has there been a single team since the “super team era” that has dominated with non competitive basketball to a championship? I don’t think so. Maybe the first Warriors chip with KD. Super team is a myth like chupacabra. Every playoff has been competitive and a dog fight. Knocking down players for joining teams to improve chances at winning at the highest level is just a form of hating.

no one can define what a superteam is, the best candidate would be the '17 and '18 GSW, and the key feature there was there was no competitiveness

[JRX]

no one can define what a superteam is, the best candidate would be the '17 and '18 GSW, and the key feature there was there was no competitiveness

Players who were mvps of their individual teams teaming up together in one spot. Not that complicated.

[GOATcards]

Players who were mvps of their individual teams teaming up together in one spot. Not that complicated.

they have to "team up"? Scottie was mvp of the Bulls during MJ's first retirement, MJ comes back to "team up" with the Bulls and win 72 + 15 games

[GOATcards]

Players who were mvps of their individual teams teaming up together in one spot. Not that complicated.

so like the Hawks today are a superteam because Dejounte was mvp of the Spurs?

[pingbling23]

You had the back to back mvp / unquestioned alpha of the league jump ship to join another back to back top 5 mvp's team. That will forever be looked at as a weak move by Lebron. If Wade forced a trade to cle and bosh signed there, people would rip Wade as weak, but nobody would have questioned Lebron.

That’s fine for you and others to think it’s weak, I see it differently. But the comparison is between Durant and Lebron. Apples to apples, using your example, kd won mvp and curry the next two in a row before kd went there. Kds teammates from okc would win 2 mvps over the next couple years. That’s the type of talent he left and then joined. Wade never won an mvp. On top of all of that the warriors were already a made team where people were already coining them a dynasty. An mvp joining another mvp coming off 2 finals, a title, with a 73 win season is much different then an mvp joining two all stars to a team with a bunch of filler that hadn’t made it past the first round the past 2 seasons. I just see the two having major differences regardless of it being comparable. I’m sure Lebron would have loved to get wade and Bosh to Cleveland if he could have.

[GOATcards]

what makes more sense as a superteam if the "mvp" concept is involved, is MVPs of the league teaming up. And we get the '17 and '18 GSW. The '21 and '22 Nets supposedly count even though KD was how many years past his league MVP win?

'71 Bucks would count then?

[Miz]

Has there been a single team since the “super team era” that has dominated with non competitive basketball to a championship? I don’t think so. Maybe the first Warriors chip with KD. Super team is a myth like chupacabra. Every playoff has been competitive and a dog fight. Knocking down players for joining teams to improve chances at winning at the highest level is just a form of hating.

That first year of KD in GS they won 67, Spurs were 61, next highest total was Hou with 55. They went on to go 16-1 in the playoffs.

In Portland sweep, 12, 29, 6, 25
In Jazz sweep they won by 12, 11, 11, 26
In the Spurs sweep they won by 2, 36, 12, and 14
In Finals vs Cavs, 22, 19, 5, -21 (only loss), 9

So in there 16 wins, 4 were within 10 points. I'd consider that dominant.

For what it’s worth I conceded in my statement that you could consider the first KD warriors team a dominate team. But that took place because of the cap increase. KD had a chance to go to a dominate team but they had lost the championship, so I give him a pass. If you don’t then I respect your opinion fully. I just don’t think the teams KD or others chose to play for impacts my opinion of them. My opinion is based upon level of play and ability. If you measure a players worth by the team he chooses to play for I completely understand why you would and respect it

[pingbling23]

Do people consider Lebron going back to Cle super team hopping? Miami was finished and Cle had Kyrie so it sort of fits, but I think he gets a pass for that one since it was his team originally.

Not a super team. Kyrie had 3 seasons of experience, was 21, averaging 21 a game as the primary scorer of a bad team, with no all nba team selections or post season appearances. Love was actually the more experienced better player with 2 all nba second team selections but had never lead his team to the playoffs. A great core to build around but not a super team.

[Zedlaw]

It's tough for me to criticize Lebron and KD when we have guys like Kyrie, Harden, Kawhi and Simmons who refuse to play. Is KD really that different from Drexler? Is Lebron really that different from Wilt. Some guys start their careers in great situations while others have to make their own way. To answer the opening question, the next generation will be worse, followed by the generation after. This will all be watered down and no one will even bat an eyelash about KD and Lebron in the future.

[Miz]

It's tough for me to criticize Lebron and KD when we have guys like Kyrie, Harden, Kawhi and Simmons who refuse to play. Is KD really that different from Drexler? Is Lebron really that different from Wilt. Some guys start their careers in great situations while others have to make their own way. To answer the opening question, the next generation will be worse, followed by the generation after. This will all be watered down and no one will even bat an eyelash about KD and Lebron in the future.

Facts

[JRX]

It's tough for me to criticize Lebron and KD when we have guys like Kyrie, Harden, Kawhi and Simmons who refuse to play. Is KD really that different from Drexler? Is Lebron really that different from Wilt. Some guys start their careers in great situations while others have to make their own way. To answer the opening question, the next generation will be worse, followed by the generation after. This will all be watered down and no one will even bat an eyelash about KD and Lebron in the future.

Well one begat the next. Its not like guys forcing their ways to different teams is new. Shaq anyone? The way its going on now has gotten out of hand.

Also in terms of dominance. That 70 win bulls team still had some close games especially vs the knicks even though it only went 5 games, 7, 11, -3, 3, 13

[hermanotarjeta]

Well one begat the next. Its not like guys forcing their ways to different teams is new. Shaq anyone? The way its going on now has gotten out of hand.

Also in terms of dominance. That 70 win bulls team still had some close games especially vs the knicks even though it only went 5 games, 7, 11, -3, 3, 13

It’s funny that shaq only has one vote in this poll. I would have guessed more.

[eastbayak]

It’s funny that shaq only has one vote in this poll. I would have guessed more.

Well, he carried Kobe to 3 championships. Poll results would've likely been different if Kobe carried him.

But Shaq is a top 10 player and Kobe isn't.

[6celtics33]

Create a thread that discusses something negative about a player and include LeBron in the poll. Some will vote for LeBron even though they know there is another player who is worse than Lebron in the poll. I bet if you create a thread discussing players and their gambling issues or rape accusations and throw in LeBron's name in the poll, some will vote for LeBron over MJ and Kobe. That's the beauty of BO;). That's how much some people's cognitive reasoning is blinded by hatred. Imagine having to talk negative about someone (any person) everyday so that it makes them feel better and have a sense of purpose in life. Just think about it. It is truly pathetic. If they put the same time and energy in showing love and affection to their loved ones and others, perhaps they will not be this miserable.:)

Now if you don’t like Lebron and shower him with praise you’re miserable in life and don’t show your loved ones enough love and affection lol. Talk about blinded cognitive reasoning. I’ve heard it all.

I’m sure I read that wrong and my iq isn’t high enough to understand and blah blah blah. Don’t bother. I don’t care. I’m too busy beating my wife to care.

[hermanotarjeta]

Now if you don’t like Lebron and shower him with praise you’re miserable in life and don’t show your loved ones enough love and affection lol. Talk about blinded cognitive reasoning. I’ve heard it all.

I’m sure I read that wrong and my iq isn’t high enough to understand and blah blah blah. Don’t bother. I don’t care. I’m too busy beating my wife to care.

LOL, I’m taking a few minutes break from the casino blackjack table to reply here as well - the results in this poll so far show more ire against Durant and not Bron, yet Lequeen Letroll legume laddlers still get defensive about their Leman.

I think it’s called beaten lepuppy syndrome.

[GOLDPRIZM]

LeBron started it but when he made his move to the Lakers, he was definitely not joining a super team. Durant will be the King of that department, he will only play for teams with multiple stars on them and joining a 73-win GS team is as weak as it gets.

[6celtics33]

LOL, I’m taking a few minutes break from the casino blackjack table to reply here as well - the results in this poll so far show more ire against Durant and not Bron, yet Lequeen Letroll legume laddlers still get defensive about their Leman.

I think it’s called beaten lepuppy syndrome.

Seriously, it reminds me of Billy Madison saying you ain’t cool if ya don’t pee ya pants. They come up with all kinds of things that not liking Lebron means.

[pcptrade]

I’m sure I read that wrong

Yep, again like the last few times. You missed the (any person) part. It is not about Lebron. I can't control what you think unfortunately:)!

[6celtics33]

Yep, again like the last few times. You missed the (any person) part. I can't control what you think unfortunately :)!

Thank God that’s true

[hermanotarjeta]

Seriously, it reminds me of Billy Madison saying you ain’t cool if ya don’t pee ya pants. They come up with all kinds of things that not liking Lebron means.

They celebrate leaving your teammates and fanbase behind for your own benefit, as if it’s some admirable act that you take the easiest path to try to get a ring.

What do you expect out of them?

Everyone in the poll is guilty to a certain degree, why do certain fans get more defensive than others?

And are there any KD fans left out there?

[pcptrade]

Thank God that’s true

Me too..This place would be boring otherwise!

[mc1]

Not a super team. Kyrie had 3 seasons of experience, was 21, averaging 21 a game as the primary scorer of a bad team, with no all nba team selections or post season appearances. Love was actually the more experienced better player with 2 all nba second team selections but had never lead his team to the playoffs. A great core to build around but not a super team.

Exactly.

Kyrie was a loser. Love was a loser. Bosh was a loser. Wade only won with Shaq and the refs. Count their postseason series wins without Lebron. Luka and Trae Young are all-time greats compared to those guys.

[hermanotarjeta]

Exactly.

Kyrie was a loser. Love was a loser. Bosh was a loser. Wade only won with Shaq and the refs. Count their postseason series wins without Lebron. Luka and Trae Young are all-time greats compared to those guys.

Wait, people are so quick to praise Bron because he won four rings playing with NOBODY, yet so quick to defend Bron for losing six championships because he played with NOBODY?

Bron guys need to lay off the drugs!

[6celtics33]

Exactly.

Kyrie was a loser. Love was a loser. Bosh was a loser. Wade only won with Shaq and the refs. Count their postseason series wins without Lebron. Luka and Trae Young are all-time greats compared to those guys.

2006 Finals

Wade 35ppg 8rpg 4apg 4 stocks pg 47%fg MVP
Shaq 14ppg 10rpg 61%fg

Yep, Wade sucks

[mc1]

2006 Finals

Wade 35ppg 8rpg 4apg 4 stocks pg 47%fg MVP
Shaq 14ppg 10rpg 61%fg

Yep, Wade sucks

Rigged

Guy went to the FT line like 30 times a game!

:)!

Once Shaq left the true Wade emerged and he couldnt even take this teams past the 1st rd of the playoffs.

[pingbling23]

Mc1 a Lebron guy? The times are a changing I guess.

[pcptrade]

That’s fine for you and others to think it’s weak, I see it differently. But the comparison is between Durant and Lebron. Apples to apples, using your example, kd won mvp and curry the next two in a row before kd went there. Kds teammates from okc would win 2 mvps over the next couple years. That’s the type of talent he left and then joined. Wade never won an mvp. On top of all of that the warriors were already a made team where people were already coining them a dynasty. An mvp joining another mvp coming off 2 finals, a title, with a 73 win season is much different then an mvp joining two all stars to a team with a bunch of filler that hadn’t made it past the first round the past 2 seasons. I just see the two having major differences regardless of it being comparable. I’m sure Lebron would have loved to get wade and Bosh to Cleveland if he could have.

Another guy's perspective-

....let’s look at the Warriors. They were pretty super before this year (2017). Already led by a trio of stars — Stephen Curry (two-time league MVP, three-time All-Star), Klay Thompson (two-time All-Star) and Draymond Green (one-time All-Star) — Golden State claimed the league title in 2014-15 and won a record 73 games in the 2015-16 regular season before coming up short against Cleveland in the Game 7 of the NBA Finals.

Then in the off-season, they were joined by free agent Kevin Durant, also a former league MVP and a seven-time All-Star who had yet to win a championship after nine years in the league. Now with four superstars and lots of other help the Warriors cruised through the NBA postseason with a 16-1 record to reclaim the league title, led by Finals MVP Durant.

So back to James’ statement about never having played on a superteam. That’s a pretty tough statement to back up, but it is pretty clear that he has never played on a superteam quite like the one Golden State put together this year.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-lebron-james-superteam-20170613-story.html

[BlueXtreme]

2006 Finals

Wade 35ppg 8rpg 4apg 4 stocks pg 47%fg MVP
Shaq 14ppg 10rpg 61%fg

Yep, Wade sucks

That was 2006 Wade. By the time LeBron got there and left he was down to 19ppg.

LeBron didn’t jump to the team with the best record ALREADY. Without him. Not once. But twice. That should be the end of the discussion. It’s KD.

[GOATcards]

Now if you don’t like Lebron and shower him with praise you’re miserable in life and don’t show your loved ones enough love and affection lol. Talk about blinded cognitive reasoning. I’ve heard it all.



I’m sure I read that wrong and my iq isn’t high enough to understand and blah blah blah. Don’t bother. I don’t care. I’m too busy beating my wife to care.It's about hate for Bron that doesn't have merit using cognitive reasoning.

No one can explain what's wrong with team-hopping, it just rubs some people the wrong way emotionally, like it's starting on 3rd base and pretending one hit a triple, and then they try to rationalize that emotion using bad arguments.

Unless they're team-loyal faces, players are going to be heels if need be to chase rings. That's the value that's been put on this prize, and for better or worse it's a measure many use to compare ATGs (all time greats). And it's why Bron fans get defensive and denigrate MJ's rings (basically for having Scottie and good mgmt to do more deck-stacking) when Bron gets bashed as a non-GOAT-contender on the basis of how he got his rings.

You'll notice that I don't discount Bron's GOAT case on the basis of that, I think it's stupid and rationalizing of emotion. I discount it mainly on the basis of non-GOATness manifest in that infamous blooper reel. Can you imagine MJ, Russell or Duncan having those reels? Wasting those opportunities?

It's not about whether Bron gets on Mt. Rushmore but whether he's the GOAT, and for that you have to weigh whatever negatives there are in the balance. With good arguments. Team-hopping is about enhancing opportunities, it's how well those opportunities are exploited that matters to me.

(Consider that the Heatles window of opportunity was narrowed by draft classmate DWade having a decline phase much sooner than Bron's. With Wade at or near 2010 talent levels, they just might have won those several rings they were counting up in their imaginations. It'd be Heatles-Warriors Finals maybe, KD still would have hopped there though and end that imaginary dynasty. But Wade's decline was a drop in ring opportunities for Bron, which is why he hopped back to CLE. And he had a drop in ring opportunities in in his first year back there with teammate injuries. Etc)

Sent from my V350C using Tapatalk

[GOATcards]

Another guy's perspective-



....let’s look at the Warriors. They were pretty super before this year (2017). Already led by a trio of stars — Stephen Curry (two-time league MVP, three-time All-Star), Klay Thompson (two-time All-Star) and Draymond Green (one-time All-Star) — Golden State claimed the league title in 2014-15 and won a record 73 games in the 2015-16 regular season before coming up short against Cleveland in the Game 7 of the NBA Finals.



Then in the off-season, they were joined by free agent Kevin Durant, also a former league MVP and a seven-time All-Star who had yet to win a championship after nine years in the league. Now with four superstars and lots of other help the Warriors cruised through the NBA postseason with a 16-1 record to reclaim the league title, led by Finals MVP Durant.



So back to James’ statement about never having played on a superteam. That’s a pretty tough statement to back up, but it is pretty clear that he has never played on a superteam quite like the one Golden State put together this year.



https://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-lebron-james-superteam-20170613-story.htmlCompare the peak Elo of teams either of them played for. The champion 2016 Cavs reached the 1760s. The 2017 GSW reached 100 points higher. That's the only team we might all agree was a superteam if ever there was one.

Sent from my V350C using Tapatalk

[hermanotarjeta]

It's about hate for Bron that doesn't have merit using cognitive reasoning.

No one can explain what's wrong with team-hopping, it just rubs some people the wrong way emotionally, like it's starting on 3rd base and pretending one hit a triple, and then they try to rationalize that emotion using bad arguments.

Unless they're team-loyal faces, players are going to be heels if need be to chase rings. That's the value that's been put on this prize, and for better or worse it's a measure many use to compare ATGs (all time greats). And it's why Bron fans get defensive and denigrate MJ's rings (basically for having Scottie and good mgmt to do more deck-stacking) when Bron gets bashed as a non-GOAT-contender on the basis of how he got his rings.

You'll notice that I don't discount Bron's GOAT case on the basis of that, I think it's stupid and rationalizing of emotion. I discount it mainly on the basis of non-GOATness manifest in that infamous blooper reel. Can you imagine MJ, Russell or Duncan having those reels? Wasting those opportunities?

It's not about whether Bron gets on Mt. Rushmore but whether he's the GOAT, and for that you have to weigh whatever negatives there are in the balance. With good arguments. Team-hopping is about enhancing opportunities, it's how well those opportunities are exploited that matters to me.

(Consider that the Heatles window of opportunity was narrowed by draft classmate DWade having a decline phase much sooner than Bron's. With Wade at or near 2010 talent levels, they just might have won those several rings they were counting up in their imaginations. It'd be Heatles-Warriors Finals maybe, KD still would have hopped there though and end that imaginary dynasty. But Wade's decline was a drop in ring opportunities for Bron, which is why he hopped back to CLE. And he had a drop in ring opportunities in in his first year back there with teammate injuries. Etc)

Sent from my V350C using Tapatalk

And this, my friends, is again the crux of the difference between how MEllennials view life and which players they worship versus others.

MEllennials reward and celebrate those who will serve their own self interests FIRST at the expense of others by leaving their teammates behind.

Whereas Gen-xers will do what they can to IMPROVE their teammates to help their own situation; they make others around them BETTER.

I’m not naming any names here, but there’s a reason why certain players are ahead in the poll. It’s all about HOW you approach your challenges.

You collect who you are.

[mc1]

Mc1 a Lebron guy? The times are a changing I guess.

You know Im not. :)!

Thats whats so funny, these guys keep accusing me of being a Lebron worshipper. Im a 100% Kobe Stan. Ive been very critical of Lebron in the past.

I will always tell it like I see it. These guys are so blinded by emotion that they cant see the facts.

[Archangel1775]

The definition of "super team" is being skewed in this thread. A "Super Team" is normally defined as a group of three or more stars from different teams that collaborate to join forces to win a championship together on one team. Bird, McHale and Parish were not a Super Team, Kareem, Magic and Worthy were not a Super Team, Kobe and Shaq were not a Super Team, Duncan and Robinson were not a Super Team. They played "Super" together but most were players built within the organization.

The Warriors were not a "Super Team" prior to KD joining them. All of their stars were organic to the organization. Steph, Klay and Draymond were all drafted by the Warriors

The Rockets Hakeem, Olajuwon and Drexler...I'd call that a Super Team
The Celtics Pierce, Garnett and Allen....Super Team
The Cavs Kyrie, Love and LeBron....Super Team

There are Super Teams and Superior Basketball.

[GOATcards]

The definition of "super team" is being skewed in this thread. A "Super Team" is normally defined as a group of three or more stars from different teams that collaborate to join forces to win a championship together on one team. Bird, McHale and Parish were not a Super Team, Kareem, Magic and Worthy were not a Super Team, Kobe and Shaq were not a Super Team, Duncan and Robinson were not a Super Team. They played "Super" together but most were players built within the organization.

The Warriors were not a "Super Team" prior to KD joining them. All of their stars were organic to the organization. Steph, Klay and Draymond were all drafted by the Warriors

The Rockets Hakeem, Olajuwon and Drexler...I'd call that a Super Team
The Celtics Pierce, Garnett and Allen....Super Team
The Cavs Wade, Love and LeBron....Super Team

There are Super Teams and Superior Basketball.Why do stars have to collaborate to join forces for it to be called a superteam? What difference does it make anyway, what we call it? Is it to give it some air of unfairness or illegitimacy? Since when was fairness in sports or life such a big thing? Is it fair that LeBron is so blessed with athletic ability? That MJ was blessed by such a great Bull organization and salary structure that he didn't need to play for a so-called superteam to win rings?

Philosophical questions to throw sand in narrative gears. :)

LeBron has 4 Finals MVPs. Seems like a whole lotta mental gymnastics are required to denigrate such an accomplishment (in the context of comparing ATGs). Kobe has 2 FMVPs and top-10 career MVP Shares and yet some folks deny he's a top ten player somehow. Not being the top dog in 3 championship wins doesn't detract from his case, does it? Does it make a damn bit of difference whether or not he hopped teams, to the impact he had on the game or on winning?

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[hermanotarjeta]

The definition of "super team" is being skewed in this thread. A "Super Team" is normally defined as a group of three or more stars from different teams that collaborate to join forces to win a championship together on one team. Bird, McHale and Parish were not a Super Team, Kareem, Magic and Worthy were not a Super Team, Kobe and Shaq were not a Super Team, Duncan and Robinson were not a Super Team. They played "Super" together but most were players built within the organization.

The Warriors were not a "Super Team" prior to KD joining them. All of their stars were organic to the organization. Steph, Klay and Draymond were all drafted by the Warriors

The Rockets Hakeem, Olajuwon and Drexler...I'd call that a Super Team
The Celtics Pierce, Garnett and Allen....Super Team
The Cavs Wade, Love and LeBron....Super Team

There are Super Teams and Superior Basketball.

And of course the Miami heat - Wade/Bron/Bosh.

Excellent point making this distinction.

One big question I have is - are failed super teams ever remembered by history?

[Archangel1775]

And of course the Miami heat - Wade/Bron/Bosh.

Excellent point making this distinction.

One big question I have is - are failed super teams ever remembered by history?

I made a mistake and put Wade on the Cavs for some reason. I suppose LeBron will take credit for making all of those guys Hall of Famers.

[pingbling23]

Wade love and Lebron super team lmao.

[Archangel1775]

Why do stars have to collaborate to join forces for it to be called a superteam? What difference does it make anyway, what we call it?Sent from my V350C using Tapatalk

Because that's really the very essence of it? I don't believe there is an exact definition but to feign ignorance surely isn't going to be effective on these boards. I suppose a GM can randomly grab 2-3 superstars and add them to a roster but that's unrealistic.

If you've ever played anything competitive, you'd understand what LeBron James has been doing since he left the Cavs the first time. It's like showing up to a popular park to play basketball on the weekend where 20 people are waiting and taking the 4 best guys and telling the rest to pick captains. There are less obstacles to overcome, the journey becomes shorter and there is practically no character being built. Many people want a challenge and embrace the journey. Some would rather not because they are chasing ghosts.

As for what difference it makes, it makes it clear in American and NBA history what type of team it was.

[drobfan8]

Because that's really the very essence of it? I don't believe there is an exact definition but to feign ignorance surely isn't going to be effective on these boards. I suppose a GM can randomly grab 2-3 superstars and add them to a roster but that's unrealistic.

If you've ever played anything competitive, you'd understand what LeBron James has been doing since he left the Cavs the first time. It's like showing up to a popular park to play basketball on the weekend where 20 people are waiting and taking the 4 best guys and telling the rest to pick captains. There are less obstacles to overcome, the journey becomes shorter and there is practically no character being built. Many people want a challenge and embrace the journey. Some would rather not because they are chasing ghosts.

As for what difference it makes, it makes it clear in American and NBA history what type of team it was.


Agreed. If you draft the key guys and they grow together, that is nothing like a bunch of All Stars collaborating and joining teams.

I remember getting the news when D. Wade was staying in Miami, then I asked where LeBron was going, then I asked where Bosh was going. That was nuts and had never been done before.

Then I remember them having the biggest sook because everyone saw them as enemy number 1.

LeBron would have a lot more respect if he had of just gotten D. Wade to CLE

[6celtics33]

That was 2006 Wade. By the time LeBron got there and left he was down to 19ppg.

LeBron didn’t jump to the team with the best record ALREADY. Without him. Not once. But twice. That should be the end of the discussion. It’s KD.

Ok. But he said won with Shaq. Shaq won because of him was more like it.

Kobe won because of Shaq the first 3 titles.

And I agree Wade declined by the time they broke apart but you might want to look at the Dallas series in 2011 when you say by the time Lebron got there. Wade was the best player in that series. Not Lebron. Not even close.

[6celtics33]

And of course the Miami heat - Wade/Bron/Bosh.

Excellent point making this distinction.

One big question I have is - are failed super teams ever remembered by history?

Well, they remember and love to point out if Wade or bosh decline and don’t give Lebron super help. But if you point out how Lebron didn’t give them help in 2011 you’re a hater and full of jealousy and insecurity. And these guys are so emotional and they are gonna spit facts at you.

They selectively decide who is ok to be negative towards. I guess some negativity is ok. It just depends who they point it at. But then call others hypocrites.

[BlueXtreme]

Well, they remember and love to point out if Wade or bosh decline and don’t give Lebron super help. But if you point out how Lebron didn’t give them help in 2011 you’re a hater and full of jealousy and insecurity. And these guys are so emotional and they are gonna spit facts at you.

They selectively decide who is ok to be negative towards. I guess some negativity is ok. It just depends who they point it at. But then call others hypocrites.

Lol. Yes. They selectively decide. Yet you nitpick a single series or decide when personal accolades matter. “Wade was almost a top 5 mvp candidate the year before”. As opposed to joining the ALREADY best team in the league. TWICE. It’s KD

[6celtics33]

Lol. Yes. They selectively decide. Yet you nitpick a single series or decide when personal accolades matter. “Wade was almost a top 5 mvp candidate the year before”. As opposed to joining the ALREADY best team in the league. TWICE. It’s KD

I think I’m pretty consistent. I value how you play when the lights are brightest. I value how your individual greatness influences team outcomes. That’s all.

And as far as this thread goes, I agree it’s KD. I said I would change my vote already. But neither one of them gets the results they want when they do this. I hope Phoenix loses this year too. Chris Paul’s leg will fall off or something when they least expect it.

[BGT Masters]

The definition of "super team" is being skewed in this thread. A "Super Team" is normally defined as a group of three or more stars from different teams that collaborate to join forces to win a championship together on one team. Bird, McHale and Parish were not a Super Team, Kareem, Magic and Worthy were not a Super Team, Kobe and Shaq were not a Super Team, Duncan and Robinson were not a Super Team. They played "Super" together but most were players built within the organization.

The Warriors were not a "Super Team" prior to KD joining them. All of their stars were organic to the organization. Steph, Klay and Draymond were all drafted by the Warriors

The Rockets Hakeem, Olajuwon and Drexler...I'd call that a Super Team
The Celtics Pierce, Garnett and Allen....Super Team
The Cavs Kyrie, Love and LeBron....Super Team

There are Super Teams and Superior Basketball.

So how is Drexler and Olajuwon a super team? Yet Shaq and Kobe aren’t? Even if you meant Olajuwon, Barkley, Pippen and Drexler those guys were all but done by then and not in their primes. Malone, Payton, Shaq and Kobe aren’t a super team by your definition?

[rustywest]

Kevin Durant to the Warriors, case closed.

[hermanotarjeta]

Does the 2009-10 cavaliers team count as a super team?

They won 61 games and came in first place in the east.

Bron/shaq/Jamison - destroyed everyone during the regular season, but couldn’t even make it to the eastern conference finals that year.

Yet some claim Bron/love/Kyrie were NOT a super team, yet they WON the finals.

So Bron bois will never admit he was on a super team EVER, though everyone he played against was a super team.

What kind of rationale is that?

Always trying to skew facts with their feeble attempts to defend an obvious super team jumper.

I don’t see any Durant fans trying to defend his actions - at least they openly admit that is what he does. And I am told for this generation it’s a commendable thing to do whatever it takes to get a ring.

Yet Bron guys are so quick to accuse and vilify Durant for doing it, but deny Bron would ever do such a thing.

History won’t remember the failed New Jersey nets super team.

[JRX]

So how is Drexler and Olajuwon a super team? Yet Shaq and Kobe aren’t? Even if you meant Olajuwon, Barkley, Pippen and Drexler those guys were all but done by then and not in their primes. Malone, Payton, Shaq and Kobe aren’t a super team by your definition?

Honest question, is there another example where the unquestioned best player in the league decided to go be someone else's sidekick while in his prime? Even when Shaq went to LA he was the best player on the team.

I do think there may be some parallels with Jordan actually. Whatever your thoughts are on the reason for his two-year absence, he needed a break. There may not have been social media back then, but there was plenty of legacy/tabloid media. I think Lebron may have also wanted a bit of a break after having to play the role of savior for 7 straight years. When you think about it, the pressure on him was far greater than Jordan and at a far earlier age. MJ went to college and didn't have crazy expectations when he entered the league. Kobe also didn't have all the pressure when he first came in as he had Shaq.

[BlueXtreme]

Always trying to skew facts with their feeble attempts to defend an obvious super team jumper.

Pot meet kettle. It’s KD. End thread

[hermanotarjeta]

Pot meet kettle. It’s KD. End thread

IF the suns win this year, I fully agree.

[BlueXtreme]

IF the suns win this year, I fully agree.

Doesn’t matter if they win lol… he went to an ALREADY ESTABLISHED TEAM with the best record twice. Hate LeBron idc. But it’s KD

[rhigh2390]

Doesn’t matter if they win lol… he went to an ALREADY ESTABLISHED TEAM with the best record twice. Hate LeBron idc. But it’s KD

It will be a big accomplishment for KD if the Suns win this year. They were going nowhere without him and PHX has never won a chip.

And you keep saying KD has went to an established team with the best record twice... Who else besides GS?

[BlueXtreme]

It will be a big accomplishment for KD if the Suns win this year. They were going nowhere without him and PHX has never won a chip.

And you keep saying KD has went to an established team with the best record twice... Who else besides GS?

Weren’t going anywhere. Didn’t they make the finals with this same core without Durant?
PHX had the best record last year.

[Chris P]

Does the 2009-10 cavaliers team count as a super team?

They won 61 games and came in first place in the east.

Bron/shaq/Jamison - destroyed everyone during the regular season, but couldn’t even make it to the eastern conference finals that year.

Yet some claim Bron/love/Kyrie were NOT a super team, yet they WON the finals.

So Bron bois will never admit he was on a super team EVER, though everyone he played against was a super team.

What kind of rationale is that?

Always trying to skew facts with their feeble attempts to defend an obvious super team jumper.

I don’t see any Durant fans trying to defend his actions - at least they openly admit that is what he does. And I am told for this generation it’s a commendable thing to do whatever it takes to get a ring.

Yet Bron guys are so quick to accuse and vilify Durant for doing it, but deny Bron would ever do such a thing.

History won’t remember the failed New Jersey nets super team.


Gomiamigo defends KD all the time for what he did..other than that..i don't think there are many durant fans on this board but I've seen plenty of other places where KD fans absolutely defend and justify each move just like Lebron fans.

[hermanotarjeta]

Doesn’t matter if they win lol… he went to an ALREADY ESTABLISHED TEAM with the best record twice. Hate LeBron idc. But it’s KD

What’s worse?

Someone who switches teams to join an already good organically created team or someone who gets another superstar from another team to join him on an already good organically created team?

I think the second scenario is much more forced and contrived and can be viewed as more egregious.

Many superstars in history have joined a good team.

Not many have contrived and plotted with other superstars to “meet” on a singular team together.

[BlueXtreme]

What’s worse?

Someone who switches teams to join an already good organically created team or someone who gets another superstar from another team to join him on an already good organically created team?

I think the second scenario is much more forced and contrived and can be viewed as more egregious.

“Good organically created team”. Warriors weren’t just that. Neither was Phoenix. They were statistically already the 2 best teams. Best records. Made finals without him with the same exact core. Etc

It’s KD. I’m not sure how this is still an ongoing convo tbh

[hermanotarjeta]

“Good organically created team”. Warriors weren’t just that. Neither was Phoenix. They were statistically already the 2 best teams. Best records. Made finals without him with the same exact core. Etc

It’s KD. I’m not sure how this is still an ongoing convo tbh

The warriors drafted from within - curry, Klay, draymomd - it’s not fair to call them a super team before Durant because they drafted well. Kind of like the 80’s Celtics and Lakers. Furthermore, the suns haven’t done squat - I don’t see any rings there yet.

Obviously KD is guilty as heck, but it’s not as obvious a choice as you may want to believe. We have many veteran BO members who wavered on this topic, including me.

[Chris P]

The warriors drafted from within - curry, Klay, draymomd - it’s not fair to call them a super team before Durant because they drafted well. Kind of like the 80’s Celtics and Lakers.

Obviously KD is guilty as heck, but it’s not as obvious a choice as you may want to believe. We have many veteran BO members who wavered on this topic, including me.

The thing that puts me over the top with KD is that not only did he leave to join the best team in the league he left after blowing a 3-1 lead to that team. I know everyone blames Westbrook (he isn't blameless) but Durant had a hand in the choke job too. I didn't like Lebron's move either but given the choices, I'd rather have a "lemme team up so I can get over the hump against these guys mentality" than a "I can't beat these guys so let me join them". I honestly wouldn't have given KD any grief if he went anywhere else to try to beat the Warriors even if it was another super team. But to join them..nah..for me personally..that will always trump what Lebron has done

[BlueXtreme]

The warriors drafted from within - curry, Klay, draymomd - it’s not fair to call them a super team before Durant because they drafted well. Kind of like the 80’s Celtics and Lakers. Furthermore, the suns haven’t done squat - I don’t see any rings there yet.

Obviously KD is guilty as heck, but it’s not as obvious a choice as you may want to believe. We have many veteran BO members who wavered on this topic, including me.

Veteran BO gives less credibility with the bias on here tbh. Idc if the team was built from within. Doesn’t make them any less super when they hold the best record of all-time.
They made the finals. If LeBron joined a team that made the finals years prior, with the best record the prior season, with the same exact core intact. What would happen?

You know what would happen.

[rhigh2390]

Weren’t going anywhere. Didn’t they make the finals with this same core without Durant?
PHX had the best record last year.

They didn't make even the conference finals last year and were going nowhere this year. They were the 6th seed, I believe, and right around .500 when KD was traded there. They have KD and Booker. Booker is a star, but hasn't won, CP3 is a shell of his former self at age 37 and Ayton is a decent big, but no star.

It will be an accomplishment if they win this year and will be that ring KD needed for his legacy.

And I agree with the consensus of this thread. Both lebron and KD have made very weak moves.

[JRX]

What’s worse?

Someone who switches teams to join an already good organically created team or someone who gets another superstar from another team to join him on an already good organically created team?

I think the second scenario is much more forced and contrived and can be viewed as more egregious.

Many superstars in history have joined a good team.

Not many have contrived and plotted with other superstars to “meet” on a singular team together.

KD wasn't a free agent, he forced his way out of Brooklyn after signing a contract. That's far worse than anything Lebron did. As much as I don't like how he went to the Heat, he at least did everything via free agency.

[hermanotarjeta]

KD wasn't a free agent, he forced his way out of Brooklyn after signing a contract. That's far worse than anything Lebron did. As much as I don't like how he went to the Heat, he at least did everything via free agency.

I think if the poll was “biggest spineless dirtbag in NBA history” Durant would easily win.

But my point is, if he does nothing with the suns, goes to another team and never wins another championship again because the chemistry is just not there or injuries haunt him for the rest of his career, history will forget he even created and abandoned the Nets, history will forget he ever joined the suns, etc.

Then you look back at Durant 20 years from now and say, yeah, he was a great player with injury issues and only had two rings on a team he piggy backed on. He won absolutely nothing else. His fate may be even worse than being remembered as a super team jumper - he may be written off and forgotten entirely.

However, history will always remember “The Decision”.

[BlueXtreme]

I think if the poll was “biggest spineless dirtbag in NBA history” Durant would easily win.

But my point is, if he does nothing with the suns, goes to another team and never wins another championship again because the chemistry is just not there or injuries haunt him for the rest of his career, history will forget he even created and abandoned the Nets, history will forget he ever joined the suns, etc.

Then you look back at Durant 20 years from now and say, yeah, he was a great player with injury issues and only had two rings on a team he piggy backed on. He won absolutely nothing else. His fate may be even worse than being remembered as a super team jumper - he may be written off and forgotten entirely.

However, history will always remember “The Decision”.

And how he donated millions to charity off of it. Right? 😆 jk

[pingbling23]

They didn't make even the conference finals last year and were going nowhere this year. They were the 6th seed, I believe, and right around .500 when KD was traded there. They have KD and Booker. Booker is a star, but hasn't won, CP3 is a shell of his former self at age 37 and Ayton is a decent big, but no star.

It will be an accomplishment if they win this year and will be that ring KD needed for his legacy.

And I agree with the consensus of this thread. Both lebron and KD have made very weak moves.

After struggling with injuries to start the season with booker their best player missing almost half the season so far they had a winning record and were in the top half of the western conference before kd suited up. The suns were still a good team and better then their record implied. Suns wet the bed last year in the second round game 7 but let’s not ignore the Dallas had an amazing game with luka scoring 35, Brunson 24, and dinwiddie with 30 off the bench. Mavs shot 57% from the field and 49% from 3. The suns haven’t won anything but let’s not act like they are a middling team.

[mc1]

The problem is that nobody knows what a superstar is. That term has always been thrown around loosely. Only the top 4-5 players in the league are superstars. The guys that are in contention for MVPs and have actually had success in the playoffs. Chris Bosh, Paul George, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Draymond Green, Anthony Davis… guys like that have never been superstars.

Curry, KD, Lebron, Kobe, Jordan at their prime. Those are superstars. Please dont attach the superstar label to every guy that averages 25 pts or has a couple all-star selections. Especially if they cant even lead their team to the playoffs or out of the 1st rd.

I remember when “the decision” was made. So many said, well, Jordan would have never teamed up with Bird and Magic. That was such an insult to those two legends. Bosh and Wade will never ever be on the same level historically as those two guys. Ever.

[NSGJT]

The problem is that nobody knows what a superstar is. That term has always been thrown around loosely. Only the top 4-5 players in the league are superstars. The guys that are in contention for MVPs and have actually had success in the playoffs. Chris Bosh, Paul George, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Draymond Green, Anthony Davis… guys like that have never been superstars.

Curry, KD, Lebron, Kobe, Jordan at their prime. Those are superstars. Please dont attach the superstar label to every guy that averages 25 pts or has a couple all-star selections. Especially if they cant even lead their team to the playoffs or out of the 1st rd.

I remember when “the decision” was made. So many said, well, Jordan would have never teamed up with Bird and Magic. That was such an insult to those two legends. Bosh and Wade will never ever be on the same level historically as those two guys. Ever.

Well I agree on your list of what superstars actually are, but even then. You can poke holes and argue that.

Popularity has to be tied. Is winning tied? Then why is KD a superstar? He didn't win a single title until he joined a team that was already in back-back championships and broke the win record. A bit asterisk mode for me there.

I think you're defining "superstars" as all-time greats. Which is fine because it's subjective really, but superstar imo is more popularity based too i.e. Luka, Tatum, LaMelo, Zion, Giannis. Stars, Superstars, whatever you want to call them. None are all-time greats, only Giannis has a title and can maybe be lightly tossed in, but all are stars currently. Ja Morant, not that great of a player imo, is a star right now.

[oldgoldy97]

There wouldn’t be the phrase “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” if this wasn’t something people did for many years in many walks of life.

[hermanotarjeta]

Well I agree on your list of what superstars actually are, but even then. You can poke holes and argue that.

Popularity has to be tied. Is winning tied? Then why is KD a superstar? He didn't win a single title until he joined a team that was already in back-back championships and broke the win record. A bit asterisk mode for me there.

I think you're defining "superstars" as all-time greats. Which is fine because it's subjective really, but superstar imo is more popularity based too i.e. Luka, Tatum, LaMelo, Zion, Giannis. Stars, Superstars, whatever you want to call them. None are all-time greats, only Giannis has a title and can maybe be lightly tossed in, but all are stars currently. Ja Morant, not that great of a player imo, is a star right now.

Good point.

If Jokic joined Luka and Kyrie in Dallas, would they be considered a super team?

I would say so, even though not everyone would consider them superstar GOATs.

[GOATcards]

Agreed. If you draft the key guys and they grow together, that is nothing like a bunch of All Stars collaborating and joining teams.



Drafting key guys wasn't happening in Cleveland the first Bron run there. If he isn't getting the support he needs to win chips, and winning chips is his goal, then it isn't a good fit now is it.

Players having an optimal fit for their goals is the counter-argument to the notion they should just stay in place, "be loyal," stick with the hand you're dealt, etc.

Note how Lillard gets ignored in the great/best discussions for staying in an environment not conducive to chips. How many people collect much of his stuff, etc. It goes with that kind of territory he chooses, etc. And?

Sent from my V350C using Tapatalk

[pcptrade]

The problem is that nobody knows what a superstar is. That term has always been thrown around loosely. Only the top 4-5 players in the league are superstars. The guys that are in contention for MVPs and have actually had success in the playoffs. Chris Bosh, Paul George, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Draymond Green, Anthony Davis… guys like that have never been superstars.

Curry, KD, Lebron, Kobe, Jordan at their prime. Those are superstars. Please dont attach the superstar label to every guy that averages 25 pts or has a couple all-star selections. Especially if they cant even lead their team to the playoffs or out of the 1st rd.

I remember when “the decision” was made. So many said, well, Jordan would have never teamed up with Bird and Magic. That was such an insult to those two legends. Bosh and Wade will never ever be on the same level historically as those two guys. Ever.

Perhaps star and superstar player might be a good way to look at it. Superstars elevate their team and carry their team into deep playoffs or finals. Superstars are the ones that people who rarely watch basketball will know who they are. MJ, Kobe, Magic, LeBron, Curry for example. In your example, Chris Bosh, Paul George, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Draymond Green, Anthony Davis are Star players and not Superstars. KD joined a superstar (Curry). LeBron was the superstar in Cavs, Heat and Lakers.

[GOATcards]

I think I’m pretty consistent. I value how you play when the lights are brightest. I value how your individual greatness influences team outcomes. That’s all.



And as far as this thread goes, I agree it’s KD. I said I would change my vote already. But neither one of them gets the results they want when they do this. I hope Phoenix loses this year too. Chris Paul’s leg will fall off or something when they least expect it.Gee, wishing ill on players/teams?

Phx was the best team either this season or last? Gerrymandered argument at its best/worst.

I suppose one can say GSW was the best team in 16 and experienced burnout and a bit of bad luck. Adding KD did do something not so good for spectator sport, it made their playoff run uncompetitive and that caused some of us to lose interest. The salary cap is in place for that reason and GSW exploited a windfall there. If you're gonna bash KD for that then be consistent and bash GSW for taking the easy way to a couple chips. And they sure did make it look easy.

So did the 96 Bulls. They were good enough and then added Kukoc on top of Horace/Dennis. What do you expect besides another threepeat?

Sent from my V350C using Tapatalk

[rhigh2390]

Gee, wishing ill on players/teams?

Phx was the best team either this season or last? Gerrymandered argument at its best/worst.

I suppose one can say GSW was the best team in 16 and experienced burnout and a bit of bad luck. Adding KD did do something not so good for spectator sport, it made their playoff run uncompetitive and that caused some of us to lose interest. The salary cap is in place for that reason and GSW exploited a windfall there. If you're gonna bash KD for that then be consistent and bash GSW for taking the easy way to a couple chips. And they sure did make it look easy.

So did the 96 Bulls. They were good enough and then added Kukoc on top of Horace/Dennis. What do you expect besides another threepeat?

Sent from my V350C using Tapatalk

Jordan is the only player that gets criticized for making others around him better. Who was Pippen before/after Jordan? What did Phil Jackson do before Jordan? Kukoc was so good he was drafted 29th and averaged 11 ppg for his career with no AS appearances. Rodman was 4 years removed from last being an AS and was a total headcase when the Bulls got him.

Meanwhile you have BO saying Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen... All losers and not stars of the league. It's that type of garbage that makes "MJ fanbois" roll their eyes and have to point out the idiocy of some people on here.

I understand that nobody on either side is changing their mind, so it's all pointless, but it's just laughable.

[JRX]

Phil followed that up by going to Shaq and Kobe. Then there were the Knicks years........

[BlueXtreme]

Jordan is the only player that gets criticized for making others around him better. Who was Pippen before/after Jordan? What did Phil Jackson do before Jordan? Kukoc was so good he was drafted 29th and averaged 11 ppg for his career with no AS appearances. Rodman was 4 years removed from last being an AS and was a total headcase when the Bulls got him.

Meanwhile you have BO saying Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen... All losers and not stars of the league. It's that type of garbage that makes "MJ fanbois" roll their eyes and have to point out the idiocy of some people on here.

I understand that nobody on either side is changing their mind, so it's all pointless, but it's just laughable.

Lol. Scottie who wasn’t in the league? A young Phil Jackson still learning? Come on. Scottie did make the playoffs without MJ. Jackson has gone on to do some things. No? So maybe they made each other better?
LeBron on the other hand kept half the guys from the Cavs years in the league in ANY capacity at all. They all were out shortly after. Also… What has Irving done since LeBron? Wade? Bosh? Love? They have done nothing. So yeah. I’d say LeBron made them better as well I guess that means. Right? By your definition.

It’s the fact you can’t even admit KD in this thread that is sad.. it’s KD all day every day. And it’s not close

[6celtics33]

Lol. Scottie who wasn’t in the league? A young Phil Jackson still learning? Come on. Scottie did make the playoffs without MJ. Jackson has gone on to do some things. No? So maybe they made each other better?
LeBron on the other hand kept half the guys from the Cavs years in the league in ANY capacity at all. They all were out shortly after. Also… What has Irving done since LeBron? Wade? Bosh? Love? They have done nothing. So yeah. I’d say LeBron made them better as well I guess that means. Right? By your definition.

It’s the fact you can’t even admit KD in this thread that is sad.. it’s KD all day every day. And it’s not close

And Spo got voted best coach in the league over Pop this year too

[BlueXtreme]

And Spo got voted best coach in the league over Pop this year too

Again.. years later while still getting his chops.

I’m just trying to rile you boys up until we all conclude it’s KD 😆

[6celtics33]

Gee, wishing ill on players/teams?

Phx was the best team either this season or last? Gerrymandered argument at its best/worst.

I suppose one can say GSW was the best team in 16 and experienced burnout and a bit of bad luck. Adding KD did do something not so good for spectator sport, it made their playoff run uncompetitive and that caused some of us to lose interest. The salary cap is in place for that reason and GSW exploited a windfall there. If you're gonna bash KD for that then be consistent and bash GSW for taking the easy way to a couple chips. And they sure did make it look easy.

So did the 96 Bulls. They were good enough and then added Kukoc on top of Horace/Dennis. What do you expect besides another threepeat?

Sent from my V350C using Tapatalk

Dude, give me a break. Saying Paul who always falls apart one way or the other will have his leg fall off when they least expect it is an exaggeration and a joke.

In no way am I or would I wish that. I do hope they lose.

[6celtics33]

Again.. years later while still getting his chops.

I’m just trying to rile you boys up until we all conclude it’s KD 😆

I’m with you already on that. I just don’t think he’s on Lebron’s level so maybe that’s why it bothers me less. He’s weak and follows people around. He’s indecisive.

People have said to me why don’t you come down on Luka for that?

Because he’s not even on my radar. He’s 23 and irrelevant until he does something.

KD isn’t irrelevant but he’s not Lebron tier.

[BlueXtreme]

I’m with you already on that. I just don’t think he’s on Lebron’s level so maybe that’s why it bothers me less. He’s weak and follows people around. He’s indecisive.

People have said to me why don’t you come down on Luka for that?

Because he’s not even on my radar. He’s 23 and irrelevant until he does something.

KD isn’t irrelevant but he’s not Lebron tier.

Ah. That’s fair

[gomiamigo]

Is winning tied? Then why is KD a superstar? He didn't win a single title until he joined a team that was already in back-back championships

Durant was already MVP by then. Had already led a team of guys in their very early 20s to the Finals and a 1-0 lead over Lebron's superteam before losing. KD was 23, Russ was younger, Harden younger and a bench player. OKC was starting Perk, Ibaka and Sefolosha.

GSW won their first title over the weakest finals team ever, a team starting Delladova, Iman Shumpert, JR Smith, and Tristan T. Yuck.

The next year, GSW lost to a healthy CLE team, and Curry, Klay, Green & Kerr knew they needed KD to beat Lebron. Curry had more turnovers than assists for the Finals.

Which KD promptly did and won consecutive Finals MVPs, outplaying Lebron 2 years straight in the finals. Shot 56/47/93 and 35.2/8.2/5.4 the first title and 29/11/8 in the 2nd on 53/41/96 splits. The very definition of historic greatness.

He is 13th on the alltime scoring list. Pretending he's not an all-time great is simply ludicrous.


I think you're defining "superstars" as all-time greats. Which is fine because it's subjective really, but superstar imo is more popularity based too i.e. Luka, Tatum, LaMelo, Zion, Giannis. Stars, Superstars, whatever you want to call them. None are all-time greats,....

Lebron and KD are all-time greats, with Giannis probably next in line. The others have a ton of work to do to be considered: Luka, Embiid, Tatum, Harden, etc. I agree they'd be considered 'superstars' at the current moment.

Every great player needs 1-2 excellent all-stars, or HoF or borderline HoF guys
to win titles. MJ, Lebron, Dr J, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan.

Julius Erving isn't any less great because he needed Moses to get past the Lakers.

Kareem isn't any less great because he needed Magic and then Worthy to win when he joined LA.

[rhigh2390]

Again.. years later while still getting his chops.

I’m just trying to rile you boys up until we all conclude it’s KD 😆

I applaud you for at least admitting this has something to do with it lol

If a lot of these debates included comments like this, it would be more understandable how some people type the stuff they do. The crazy thing is I think some people on here actually believe the stuff they type is fact lol

[rhigh2390]

I’m with you already on that. I just don’t think he’s on Lebron’s level so maybe that’s why it bothers me less. He’s weak and follows people around. He’s indecisive.

People have said to me why don’t you come down on Luka for that?

Because he’s not even on my radar. He’s 23 and irrelevant until he does something.

KD isn’t irrelevant but he’s not Lebron tier.

I'm with you here. Lebron is on another level above KD, as far as on a GOAT list, so I hold lebron to a higher standard. Nobody tries making a case for KD as the GOAT so there's not really a point to go into some of the stuff he does. His move to GS was obviously weak, but people could see that lebron was going to go down as one of the best 5-10 to ever play, so it just is more of a stain in my eyes that he took the path that he did because I expect the greats to be above that. It's on par for KD.

[pcptrade]

.
I’m just trying to rile you boys up😆

I do the same with my hypothetical questions and youtube video links. That's how I was able to find out about the BO fetish for certain things😆 Some members here are easily triggered. I have MJ ahead of Lebron in my list but I play devils advocate in the GOAT debate to rile up the MJ stans. :p

[6celtics33]

I do the same with my hypothetical questions and youtube video links. That's how I was able to find out about the BO fetish for certain things😆 Some members here are easily triggered. I have MJ ahead of Lebron in my list but I play devils advocate in the GOAT debate to rile up the MJ stans. :p

Here’s one for you

What is stans? And where did it originate?

I genuinely don’t know

[pcptrade]

Here’s one for you

What is stans? And where did it originate?

I genuinely don’t know

Me neither but this is what I found from web search-

While some say the term is a combination of "fan" and "stalker," "stan" was first coined in 2000 when Eminem dropped a twisted allegory in a song called "Stan," about a man who was pushed to the edge when his idol wouldn't answer his fan mail. The word used to be synonymous with overzealous or obsessed

[6celtics33]

Me neither but this is what I found from web search-

While some say the term is a combination of "fan" and "stalker," "stan" was first coined in 2000 when Eminem dropped a twisted allegory in a song called "Stan," about a man who was pushed to the edge when his idol wouldn't answer his fan mail. The word used to be synonymous with overzealous or obsessed

That makes sense. I had no idea where the st got added. Thanks

[pcptrade]

That makes sense. I had no idea where the st got added. Thanks

You are welcome:)!

[GOATcards]

The problem is that nobody knows what a superstar is. That term has always been thrown around loosely. Only the top 4-5 players in the league are superstars. The guys that are in contention for MVPs and have actually had success in the playoffs. Chris Bosh, Paul George, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Draymond Green, Anthony Davis… guys like that have never been superstars.

Curry, KD, Lebron, Kobe, Jordan at their prime. Those are superstars. Please dont attach the superstar label to every guy that averages 25 pts or has a couple all-star selections. Especially if they cant even lead their team to the playoffs or out of the 1st rd.

I remember when “the decision” was made. So many said, well, Jordan would have never teamed up with Bird and Magic. That was such an insult to those two legends. Bosh and Wade will never ever be on the same level historically as those two guys. Ever.

By your definition of superstar, it's players that finish well in MVP balloting. AD did that a couple or so times.

Curry, KD, LeBron, Kobe, MJ didn't just finish well in the balloting, they were the top dog, each of them multiple times except for KD

[GOATcards]

Well I agree on your list of what superstars actually are, but even then. You can poke holes and argue that.

Popularity has to be tied. Is winning tied? Then why is KD a superstar? He didn't win a single title until he joined a team that was already in back-back championships and broke the win record. A bit asterisk mode for me there.

I think you're defining "superstars" as all-time greats. Which is fine because it's subjective really, but superstar imo is more popularity based too i.e. Luka, Tatum, LaMelo, Zion, Giannis. Stars, Superstars, whatever you want to call them. None are all-time greats, only Giannis has a title and can maybe be lightly tossed in, but all are stars currently. Ja Morant, not that great of a player imo, is a star right now.

use the 92 Dream Team as a test case. How many of the players on that team were superstars? Were Pippen, Ewing, Drexler, Mullin?

That would still leave 7 players that weren't borderline cases IMO. With a talent pool that much smaller than today's.

Are any of Tatum, Kawhi, Lillard, or Jimmy Butler superstars? That still leaves "the usual seven" ahead of them.

[GOATcards]

Jordan is the only player that gets criticized for making others around him better. Who was Pippen before/after Jordan? What did Phil Jackson do before Jordan? Kukoc was so good he was drafted 29th and averaged 11 ppg for his career with no AS appearances. Rodman was 4 years removed from last being an AS and was a total headcase when the Bulls got him.

Meanwhile you have BO saying Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen... All losers and not stars of the league. It's that type of garbage that makes "MJ fanbois" roll their eyes and have to point out the idiocy of some people on here.

I understand that nobody on either side is changing their mind, so it's all pointless, but it's just laughable.

I don't consider myself on a "side," and plenty open to changing my mind

[GOATcards]

Lol. Scottie who wasn’t in the league? A young Phil Jackson still learning? Come on. Scottie did make the playoffs without MJ. Jackson has gone on to do some things. No? So maybe they made each other better?
LeBron on the other hand kept half the guys from the Cavs years in the league in ANY capacity at all. They all were out shortly after. Also… What has Irving done since LeBron? Wade? Bosh? Love? They have done nothing. So yeah. I’d say LeBron made them better as well I guess that means. Right? By your definition.

It’s the fact you can’t even admit KD in this thread that is sad.. it’s KD all day every day. And it’s not close

how much better could Bron or anyone possibly make Mo Williams et al?

[GOATcards]

Dude, give me a break. Saying Paul who always falls apart one way or the other will have his leg fall off when they least expect it is an exaggeration and a joke.

In no way am I or would I wish that. I do hope they lose.

just about the only thing I hope for is the highest-quality play we can get, which is for players to be healthy and at their best. What else would one wish for, and why (unless one is a homer and wants to see a particular team win)? (I mean, I do kinda wanna see Joker win for the same reason I wanted to see MJ and Bron win - that the best player in the game at the time gets a ring or two at least.)

"give me a break" indeed :p

[GOATcards]

People have said to me why don’t you come down on Luka for that?

Because he’s not even on my radar. He’s 23 and irrelevant until he does something.


an exaggeration and a joke I gather?

He did something by leading a squad of near-scrubs to the WCF.

Are we going to make GOAT debates poisonous by saying that a player is irrelevant and hasn't done anything unless he gets a ring? Karl Malone gets that kind of disrespect then? Am I exaggerating or joking when asking this?

[GOATcards]

I'm with you here. Lebron is on another level above KD, as far as on a GOAT list, so I hold lebron to a higher standard. Nobody tries making a case for KD as the GOAT so there's not really a point to go into some of the stuff he does. His move to GS was obviously weak, but people could see that lebron was going to go down as one of the best 5-10 to ever play, so it just is more of a stain in my eyes that he took the path that he did because I expect the greats to be above that. It's on par for KD.

does KD get a spot on the All-Time Roster ahead of (say) Hakeem who unlike Karl Malone didn't have to face MJ/Bulls in the Finals? We see just how agile Hakeem is from the highlight reels posted here, so it's Hakeem ahead of the weak KD (and Karl) then?

As for Bron, just how little support would he have to have before we concede that he's justified to move on to better pastures? Just name the threshold. Mo Williams & Varejao et al weren't below the threshold evidently. Or was it that where he moved to was above some threshold? What team could he move to and not lose respect for doing so?

[GOATcards]

Me neither but this is what I found from web search-

While some say the term is a combination of "fan" and "stalker," "stan" was first coined in 2000 when Eminem dropped a twisted allegory in a song called "Stan," about a man who was pushed to the edge when his idol wouldn't answer his fan mail. The word used to be synonymous with overzealous or obsessed

it's a dumb word for fanboi
;)

[SupermanBrandon]

I cant tell if GOATcards is all-in on this topic

[GOATcards]

I cant tell if GOATcards is all-in on this topic

haters and fanbois alike should clearly state their thresholds for when they start/stop their hate/fandom. Like what team Bron could have hopped to (or how shoddy his support in Cleveland would have to be) where they wouldn't hate/excuse him.

We don't even have agreement on what a superteam is, but the haters will say without explaining their criteria that Bron definitely went to/formed a superteam in Miami, and that it makes a difference whether we call it a superteam or not whether it was a weak move or not. Perhaps I exaggerate a little bit there but maybe they should specify the threshold for what is or isn't exaggeration.

They should all explain in clearly defined terms why Karl Malone should be discounted on ATG lists as he is, given the context. He didn't get to face the 95 Orlando Magic in the Finals, now did he. Just specify the threshold below which a player can be discounted and then I can take the argument seriously. Otherwise it's obvious bad-faith gerrymandering based on preexisting preference/bias.

[6celtics33]

an exaggeration and a joke I gather?

He did something by leading a squad of near-scrubs to the WCF.

Are we going to make GOAT debates poisonous by saying that a player is irrelevant and hasn't done anything unless he gets a ring? Karl Malone gets that kind of disrespect then? Am I exaggerating or joking when asking this?

I was joking and exaggerating when I said Chris Paul’s leg would fall off. In all seriousness I assume his leg will stay attached.

When I said give me a break I’m saying do not try to act like I wished injury in a player. I haven’t and wouldn’t.

I can root against a team if I wish. Thanks

I also would like to see Denver and Jokic win. They won’t. But I’m pulling for them.

[6celtics33]

When you say Karl Malone didn’t get to face the 95 Orlando magic? Were they suspended? No. They lost is why. The 95 Magic beat the Bulls and got smoked by the rockets. The jazz were nowhere to be seen. So I don’t know where you’re going with that one.

[mc1]

By your definition of superstar, it's players that finish well in MVP balloting. AD did that a couple or so times.

Curry, KD, LeBron, Kobe, MJ didn't just finish well in the balloting, they were the top dog, each of them multiple times except for KD

With playoff success? He won maybe a couple of playoff series.

Pippen and Phil took the 1993-94 Knicks to the brink and could have made the finals the year Jordan “retired”. They were that good. I still say they got robbed by the refs in game 5. I think Pippen did throw a hissy fit and refused to go in during the final minutes of game 2 or 3, so theres that.

[GOATcards]

When you say Karl Malone didn’t get to face the 95 Orlando magic? Were they suspended? No. They lost is why. The 95 Magic beat the Bulls and got smoked by the rockets. The jazz were nowhere to be seen. So I don’t know where you’re going with that one.

Hakeem's team got to face the 95 Magic, Karl's team got to face MJ's Bulls. Hakeem's a winner and Karl's not a winner. That's the narrative after they each reached the Finals twice in the '90s. The assumption here being that Hakeem would have won against MJ's Bulls because he's a winner.

Some of us regard that as obvious bad-faith gerrymandering of evidence, ignoring context, etc., to pump up Hakeem while denigrating Karl.

[GOATcards]

With playoff success? He won maybe a couple of playoff series.


team game, it's teams that win or lose, gerrymandering/word-games doesn't work so well for me


Pippen and Phil took the 1993-94 Knicks to the brink

as has been pointed out, it was a 2nd round exit. It's also when Pippen peaked, in his late 20s.

Seeing as how they did make the 2nd round without MJ, it is evidence that MJ had pretty darn good support. It's also evidence that MJ made the difference between 2nd round exit and probable finals win.

[drobfan8]

With playoff success? He won maybe a couple of playoff series.

Pippen and Phil took the 1993-94 Knicks to the brink and could have made the finals the year Jordan “retired”. They were that good. I still say they got robbed by the refs in game 5. I think Pippen did throw a hissy fit and refused to go in during the final minutes of game 2 or 3, so theres that.

Yeah and the year the Spurs trounced Miami 4-1 they only just snuck by Dallas 4-3 in the first round. So should I say that Dallas could have won the title? They didn't.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts.

[hermanotarjeta]

Fact: only four players in NBA history have won rings with three different NBA teams-

Danny Green, John Salley, Lebron James and Robert Horry.

[SupermanBrandon]

So we're still counting the Mickey Mouse ring?

[hermanotarjeta]

So we're still counting the Mickey Mouse ring?

Not sure about that one, does beating a fifth seeded non-super team count?

[mc1]

Yeah and the year the Spurs trounced Miami 4-1 they only just snuck by Dallas 4-3 in the first round. So should I say that Dallas could have won the title? They didn't.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts.

They had the 3rd best record in the East. They werent an 8 seed like the Mavs. Pippen did a lot more that year in the regular season and playoffs than Love, Kyrie, Bosh, AD combined their entire careers without Lebron.

[drobfan8]

They had the 3rd best record in the East. They werent an 8 seed like the Mavs. Pippen did a lot more that year in the regular season and playoffs than Love, Kyrie, Bosh, AD combined their entire careers without Lebron.

The Pippen arguments are woeful.

If you're going to talk up his one good season you have to consider how often he wilted.

The migraine game 7 vs DET (or we could all just admit he's a massive p*ssy)
he dogged it in a Playoff game because the ball wasn't coming to him
He was useless vs the Jazz in 98 when Jordan closed them out
He did nothing with Barkley and Hakeem
He choked a 15 pt lead vs the Lakers (you ever watched that game?)

Love, Kyrie, Bosh and AD were all massive parts of Lebron winning a title. Just as Pippen was.

So quit being a moron.

[hermanotarjeta]

The Pippen arguments are woeful.

If you're going to talk up his one good season you have to consider how often he wilted.

The migraine game 7 vs DET (or we could all just admit he's a massive p*ssy)
he dogged it in a Playoff game because the ball wasn't coming to him
He was useless vs the Jazz in 98 when Jordan closed them out
He did nothing with Barkley and Hakeem
He choked a 15 pt lead vs the Lakers (you ever watched that game?)

Love, Kyrie, Bosh and AD were all massive parts of Lebron winning a title. Just as Pippen was.

So quit being a moron.

And don't forget about that NOBODY, Ray Allen.

[BlueXtreme]

People still can’t seem to grasp team build and chemistry obviously. Certain TEAM structures make them a good team regardless of how good the individual players are. Where you don’t need multiple superstars to win. Or maybe you need a single superstar. But team structured properly with great coaching can lead to success.

And regardless what people say. The superteam started with Pierce KG and Allen. Idc about trade etc. That was the start.

Let’s see who gets worked up first :)

[mc1]

The Pippen arguments are woeful.

If you're going to talk up his one good season you have to consider how often he wilted.

The migraine game 7 vs DET (or we could all just admit he's a massive p*ssy)
he dogged it in a Playoff game because the ball wasn't coming to him
He was useless vs the Jazz in 98 when Jordan closed them out
He did nothing with Barkley and Hakeem
He choked a 15 pt lead vs the Lakers (you ever watched that game?)

Love, Kyrie, Bosh and AD were all massive parts of Lebron winning a title. Just as Pippen was.

So quit being a moron.

:cry:

Why so serious? Youre more emotional than a chick, go put a skirt on.

FACT is Jordan never won a thing without Pippen or Phil. He couldnt do anything on his own either.

And don't forget about that NOBODY, Ray Allen.

How many teams did he lead to a title on his own? Another loser.

[JRX]

:cry:

Why so serious? Youre more emotional than a chick, go put a skirt on.

FACT is Jordan never won a thing without Pippen or Phil. He couldnt do anything on his own either.



How many teams did he lead to a title on his own? Another loser.

What player won a championship 1 on 5 with no coach?

[mc1]

What player won a championship 1 on 5 with no coach?

Exactly. Thats been the point all along. The only titles that deserve much praise then are the 2011 Mavs and 2004 Pistons. Every other title since 1980 is tainted due to injuries or “superteams”.:)!

[6celtics33]

Exactly. Thats been the point all along. The only titles that deserve much praise then are the 2011 Mavs and 2004 Pistons. Every other title since 1980 is tainted due to injuries or “superteams”.:)!

94 rockets?

[JRX]

94 rockets?

Starks tainted that one lol

[hermanotarjeta]

:cry:

Why so serious? Youre more emotional than a chick, go put a skirt on.

FACT is Jordan never won a thing without Pippen or Phil. He couldnt do anything on his own either.



How many teams did he lead to a title on his own? Another loser.

How many titles did pippen get on his own? Zero, so he’s a loser as well.

Kobe needed either shaq or Gasol + Phil. Loser.

[SupermanBrandon]

KD needed an already near perfect team

[pac213up]

Has to be KD. No one else even comes close IMO.

[hermanotarjeta]

Exactly. Thats been the point all along. The only titles that deserve much praise then are the 2011 Mavs and 2004 Pistons. Every other title since 1980 is tainted due to injuries or “superteams”.:)!

Does that put dirk nowitzki part of the GOAT conversation?

[JRX]

How many titles did pippen get on his own? Zero, so he’s a loser as well.

Kobe needed either shaq or Gasol + Phil. Loser.

By this logic every nba player is a loser since they didn't win by themselves.

[eastbayak]

By this logic every nba player is a loser since they didn't win by themselves.

Does this mean that MJ is one of the biggest losers of them all? Needing Pippen to win each of his 6 CHIPs?

[JRX]

Does this mean that MJ is one of the biggest losers of them all? Needing Pippen to win each of his 6 CHIPs?

I think they're all equal losers since they needed at least 4 teammates plus a coach, but players that never won are I guess the biggest losers.

[hermanotarjeta]

By this logic every nba player is a loser since they didn't win by themselves.

Dirk won by himself.

[eastbayak]

I think they're all equal losers since they needed at least 4 teammates plus a coach, but players that never won are I guess the biggest losers.

Without Pippen, MJ would have 0 rings.
Without Curry, KD would have 0 rings.

But MJ needed Pippen for 6 CHIPs and KD needed Curry for 2 CHIPs? Surely they can't be equal losers.

[eastbayak]

Dirk won by himself.

Jason Terry
Shawn Marion
Tyson Chandler
J.J. Barea
Jason Kidd
DeShawn Stevenson

That's actually a pretty legit squad. Dirk's CHIP win is still impressive but he wasn't playing with a 06-07 Cavaliers roster either.

[hermanotarjeta]

Jason Terry
Shawn Marion
Tyson Chandler
J.J. Barea
Jason Kidd
DeShawn Stevenson

That's actually a pretty legit squad. Dirk's CHIP win is still impressive but he wasn't playing with a 06-07 Cavaliers roster either.

Yeah, but how many rings did any of those guys win without Dirk?

And better yet, Bron, with his own super team, lost to those nobodies.

Except for Dirk.

[BlueXtreme]

Has to be KD. No one else even comes close IMO.

This.. but also I quickly scrolled the comments and found it funny repeating loser over and over again while talking about great basketball players/teams 😆

[eastbayak]

Yeah, but how many rings did any of those guys win without Dirk?

And better yet, Bron, with his own super team, lost to those nobodies.

Except for Dirk.

How many rings did Dirk win without any of them?

This is so easy.

[hermanotarjeta]

How many rings did Dirk win without any of them?

This is so easy.

Since everyone is a nobody loser, Bron lost to nobody losers six times, which makes him a bigger loser than KD.

[eastbayak]

Since everyone is a nobody loser, Bron lost to nobody losers six times, which makes him a bigger loser than KD.

Oh, in that case, MJ would be a greater loser because he lost more pre-NBA Finals rounds. That's a category inferior to a nobody loser.

[hermanotarjeta]

Oh, in that case, MJ would be a greater loser because he lost more pre-NBA Finals rounds. That's a category inferior to a nobody loser.

Actually Lebron has lost more games in the nba (495), than Jordan (366).

However, Vince Carter is the all time biggest loser (756 games).

[eastbayak]

Actually Lebron has lost more games in the nba (495), than Jordan (366).

However, Vince Carter is the all time biggest loser (756 games).

I was strictly referring to NBA playoffs, probably shouldn't have assumed we were on the same page.

[hermanotarjeta]

I was strictly referring to NBA playoffs, probably shouldn't have assumed we were on the same page.

It should have been easy for Lebron to cruise through the playoffs, the eastern conference was a cake walk the entire time he was there.

Yet, he was always scared to run into Kobe in the playoffs.

[GOATcards]

94 rockets?

tainted due to mj retirement, duh

[GOATcards]

Exactly. Thats been the point all along. The only titles that deserve much praise then are the 2011 Mavs and 2004 Pistons. Every other title since 1980 is tainted due to injuries or “superteams”.:)!

11 mavs tainted by bron meltdown

the 04 pistons are probably tainted by something or other if you look hard enough

[GOATcards]

By this logic every nba player is a loser since they didn't win by themselves.

now we're getting somewhere

[SupermanBrandon]

tainted due to mj retirement, duh

...and the OJ Simpson chase. Knicks would've won that series if it wasn't for OJ. Talk about a guy that's a murderer.

[JRX]

...and the OJ Simpson chase. Knicks would've won that series if it wasn't for OJ. Talk about a guy that's a murderer.

OJ killed Stark's jump shot?

[mc1]

the 04 pistons are probably tainted by something or other if you look hard enough

Youre right.
Shaq was fat. Gary P and Malone were old. Kobe had the Colorado fiasco.