Who’s to blame for the Celtics lack of success?

[LeonfromNC]

Please delete

[KhalDrogo]

Tatum and Brown.

These two have had a loaded roster for years, and have zilch to show for it.

[jcardstore]

Tatum has been terrible and Mazzulla is a rookie head coach. The deck was stacked against them.

[bloodwings19]

Tatum has James Harden disease. Game 3 loss is on the coach, you have 57 rebounds to Heat's 37, you should win game, not in a blow out loss. Coach Udoka coaching point has risen. Seriously, I never thought the Celtics was this good.

[I only pull for]

Eric Spoelstra, Jimmy Butler, and Bam Adebayo

[ck6599]

It's on Mazzulla and Tatum.
Tatum is a top 3 talent in the league, but he does not have the intangibles, he doesn't have the mentality, the killer instinct. He's not (as Butler describes the Heat) "a dog." It's a player driven league........but if you have a talent that doesn't have the killer instinct then you need a coach that can get it out of you. Mazzulla is not that guy.......frankly he probably isn't that guy for any team, he should be coaching D3 college. He looked good early on because the Celtics were winning early season games (AKA low pressure games), but frankly I could have rolled a ball out there and told them to do their thing in October/November and probably would have had a winning record.
I'm a HUGE Celtics fan, but this talent is going to be wasted......I don't see this team winning anything.
This team is SOFT....the only one that has shown any balls is Smart and Grant Wiliams, and those guys aren't the ones that need to do it. They need to bring in a strong coach, and even then, if the coach is too strong, Tatum and/or Brown may not like being challenged......it's their makeup that is the problem. I'd trade Tatum for a guy like Butler (he's too old at this point to do straight up for Tatum), but a true "dog" along with Brown, Brogdon, White, Williams.....woud definitely be better.
Tatum will be great for years.....he'll have 50 point games and maybe win a regular season MVP, but he shrivels when the pressure is at its highest.

[msink28]

I'd put it on Mazzulla and Stevens. Mazzulla is out of his league, Spoelstra is picking him apart. Quin Snyder also picked him apart in the first round for what it's worth.

Stevens needs to have the guts to trade Jaylen Brown. Everybody in the NBA knows it's your turn, my turn with Boston. Brown is also redundant with White, Smart and Brogdon. I like Brown, it just isn't working anymore with Boston. It has to be Tatum's team. But Boston is scared to trade Brown because there's no way to get equal value for him and he'll be much more dangerous somewhere else.

I'm not quite ready for a referendum on Tatum yet. He just scored 51 in a game 7.

[the mesiah]

Ime Udoka

[MJGOAT23]

Brown and Tatum just need tpo run more PnR together. The your turn my turn absolutely is not working.

[bmf]

Tatum has James Harden disease.

Bingo. Tatum is a great regular season player, but when the games really count…

[mc1]

5 ECF appearances in the last 7 seasons. Only have 1 Finals loss to show for it. They just dont have enough to get over the hump.

[BGT Masters]

Bingo. Tatum is a great regular season player, but when the games really count…

He put up 16 in the 4th quarter of an elimination game on the road and in the close out game 7 he put up 51 points. Sure he is up and down but I mean those two games literally just happened a couple weeks ago and they sort of really counted.

They'd struggling now because they ran into the buzzsaw that is Jimmy Butler.

[bradical]

Robert Williams is making Bam look like SHAQ out there. Bam is the greatest illegal screener of our time and Starlord is lost trying to guard a screen-setting center. It's a bad combo for Boston.

[bmf]

He put up 16 in the 4th quarter of an elimination game on the road and in the close out game 7 he put up 51 points. Sure he is up and down but I mean those two games literally just happened a couple weeks ago and they sort of really counted.

They'd struggling now because they ran into the buzzsaw that is Jimmy Butler.

You mean the 2nd-round game 7 they should’ve never had to be in? :rolleyes:

Harden has had a few terrific playoff games here and there, too. But obviously neither one of these guys is someone you can count on in the playoffs.

[brothertona]

This is just a badly built roster - no PG to slow things down, coaching is a major weakness - (basically what the Hawks had with Nate and Sixers with Doc) against probably the smartest coach in the league in Spoelstra. Conflict as well with Tatum/Brown. They are sharing way too much oxygen - one needs to go and Tatum is obviously much better so he's staying. Way too many smalls - with Brogdon/White/Smart/Pritchard/Williams and not enough bigs to bang down low. Horford isn't that dude at this stage in his career.

[KhalDrogo]

He put up 16 in the 4th quarter of an elimination game on the road and in the close out game 7 he put up 51 points. Sure he is up and down but I mean those two games literally just happened a couple weeks ago and they sort of really counted.

They'd struggling now because they ran into the buzzsaw that is Jimmy Butler.
Tatum is the textbook definition of inconsistent. Inconsistency doesn’t win championships.

[rifleman69]

Ime Udoka's urges.

[SupermanBrandon]

Kobe texted him back

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230522/4ba1c7fc7ddbceca808f7e9e4aed99f0.jpg

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[wubh]

The roster is talented but poorly built, there are not enough touches to go around to soothe all of the egos/future contract extensions on the table, and overmatched coaching (both X’s and O’s and ego management).

Some recent win now moves look good in a vacuum (like Brogdan and White for poopoo platters plus future picks) but haven’t moved the needle. Depth signings like Hauser and Kornet help in the regular season but not the playoffs (at least without a great coach like Spo). The real move would have been trading JB last summer to balance out the roster.

I agree with the poster who said they also need a savvy PG who can slow down a game and control a 4th quarter, almost the kind of guy that Joe Mazulla was in college (but with a lot more basketball talent). Instead they have 3 combo guards and two iso wings.

That your turn, my turn crap hasn’t changed one bit since last years finals but now, there is also less hustle, worse defense and poor chemistry.

[Nomad]

Please delete

A lot of Celtics fans agree.

From my little patch of turf:

I trace the issues back to ones I delved into deeply due to my investment in Nesmith. Instead of activating the best play makers on the floor on a nightly basis (ala Pritchard, who could be a Reeves style PG, minus a few inches) they rely on winded vets. Last conference finals, I remember distinctly Nesmith making a couple of game saving defensive stops (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLY89nU8EQ) against Miami when Smart was out, G1--and getting benched the rest of the series as a reward (ok his shooting was not there, as a result of no reg season playing time). And yeah, Celtics soundly defeated in the Finals.

The Celtics have no talent coming up. No rookie would ever want to get drafted there, a total dead letter box. The trade Pacers made for no-name Nesmith a year ago? Put Brogdon vs. Aaron 1 and 1 and the younger, hungrier player would clean the floor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AddI0bN2r5s) every time. Imagine a whole team of haingry players like that. That's Miami.

I was watching the TNT broadcast and they kept the camera on the Celtics during break, when the whole starting unit, except Smart, was taken out wholesale. Never seen that level of shame and dejection, a couple shirts and towels completely covering the heads.

[BGT Masters]

You mean the 2nd-round game 7 they should’ve never had to be in? :rolleyes:

Harden has had a few terrific playoff games here and there, too. But obviously neither one of these guys is someone you can count on in the playoffs.

I don't even like the Celtics, or any Boston team for that matter. Just pointing out your statement was quite wrong. Regardless of whether they should have been in a game 6 or 7, he did just show up in two must win games in a big way.

Inconsistency can still win championships if you catch fire at the right time (see end of game 6 and game 7 last series). However you have to have another superstar to pick up the slack at the right time as well. Multiple key inconsistent/streaky players is a no go.

[boxbuster7]

Ime Udoka

*his mistress

[JeffG1954]

Who’s to blame for the Celtics lack of success?

This year the easiest answer is the Miami Heat.

[bmf]

Kobe texted him back

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230522/4ba1c7fc7ddbceca808f7e9e4aed99f0.jpg


Lmao that’s funny. It’s cringe every time Tatum mentions Kobe.

[AwesomeBrian]

Shannon Sharpe mumbled a good point today... nobody was screaming about the coaching when they smoked Milwaukee by 41 in late March. But now 10 Ply Tatum and Brick Brown play like trash and it's the coaching?

[ninjacookies]

Kathleen Lynch.


Never trust a big butt and a Mormon smile.

[Supercomputers]

Tatum is the textbook definition of inconsistent. Inconsistency doesn’t win championships.

To bad Celtics don’t even have this opportunity if it was not for Tatum. Guys a top 5 player in the league at 25 years young. A priceless journey that must be learned and taken by any superstar. Painful process but in the end he will become much better because of it. The coach has not done this team many favors as he is learning on the job as well. Tatum and brown
are so far ahead of schedule its laughable. When did any of the current goats start winning championships age wise? We’re so impressed by a 33 year old butler who has never won anything yet either.

[cowboyzqna]

Tatum is good... real good. But he isn't top tier of the league good. No shame in how well they've done.. and I believe this is their peak. Good enough to be competitive in the playoffs but not good enough to win a title.

[PokeyAndG]

Tatum is good... real good. But he isn't top tier of the league good. No shame in how well they've done.. and I believe this is their peak. Good enough to be competitive in the playoffs but not good enough to win a title.

the silver lining is that he's just 25 years old and still has plenty of chances. What we will feel today about him will not necessarily be the same 2-3 years from now, or even next season, as people are often prisoners of the moment.

[seanbros55]

Ime Udoka’s side piece.

[Harper]

Miami is winning the series, rather than Celtics losing it. Miami is just the better team.

[fidrych]

I think they have the best Gm and Coach. I think Butler elevates the level of play of average to above average players.

[TheGZA]

the silver lining is that he's just 25 years old and still has plenty of chances. What we will feel today about him will not necessarily be the same 2-3 years from now, or even next season, as people are often prisoners of the moment.

During the regular season it really started feeling to me like Tatum was making the leap to elite, top guy after being the really good with mega-upside guy previously. Playoffs have diminished that a bit but I agree, this dude in the next few years will have plenty of chances to put it all together and be the elite megastar he is capable of being.

[Nomad]

"What we will feel today about him will not necessarily be the same 2-3 years from now, or even next season, as people are often prisoners of the moment."

This is why Butler and Jokic, and to a certain extent Herro, Bam, and Murray fans can expect to make profits from their investments this year.

That's why Tatum may be humbly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjtGMKXlOSQ) right. Just not at the moment.

[hauntedcomputer]

Ime Udoka’s side piece.

Typical misogyny. Sounded like she just wanted to end it quietly and he had to become stalker-obsessor dude in the workplace.

It's ALL his fault. He knew better, knew the stakes, and was in a position of authority representing the entire organization.

https://y.yarn.co/422b4424-6963-483f-8602-54225998b8a7_text.gif

[PokeyAndG]

During the regular season it really started feeling to me like Tatum was making the leap to elite, top guy after being the really good with mega-upside guy previously. Playoffs have diminished that a bit but I agree, this dude in the next few years will have plenty of chances to put it all together and be the elite megastar he is capable of being.

heck, how are people feeling about him now after these last two games?

[rustywest]

Who's to blame?

One of America's catchcries

Celtics are a failure? 4 teams were left when you went for it

I'd play on the Celtics any day of the week

[boxbuster7]

Anybody else think that the celtics actually have a shot of winning this series? Heat roster is old and banged up (vincent) - boston has been favored by the odds makers for every game so far including tomorrows. At least they're making it interesting.

[Tallguy1991]

During the regular season it really started feeling to me like Tatum was making the leap to elite, top guy after being the really good with mega-upside guy previously. Playoffs have diminished that a bit but I agree, this dude in the next few years will have plenty of chances to put it all together and be the elite megastar he is capable of being.


He dropped 51 on the 76ers to basically single handedly take that series….I feel like that’s elite, top guy stuff. This will be seen as sacrilege here but give me Tatum over Luka or Embiid 11/10 times


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[boxbuster7]

He dropped 51 on the 76ers to basically single handedly take that series….I feel like that’s elite, top guy stuff. This will be seen as sacrilege here but give me Tatum over Luka or Embiid 11/10 times


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think it is that crazy to say at this point. I do think my problem with Tatum is he vanishes in the biggest moments. But he is only 25. The future is obviously super bright. And if the Celtics can pull a rabbit out of their hat, that is 2 finals appearances in a row by age 25.

He also finished 4th in mvp this season. There is a lot to like.

[Tallguy1991]

I don't think it is that crazy to say at this point. I do think my problem with Tatum is he vanishes in the biggest moments. But he is only 25. The future is obviously super bright. And if the Celtics can pull a rabbit out of their hat, that is 2 finals appearances in a row by age 25.

He also finished 4th in mvp this season. There is a lot to like.


Definitely. He’s been around so long it feels like he should be older than 25, but he’s not. And the years he’s been in the league have been an absolute soap opera for the organization, I was worried about the effect the Kyrie saga would have on him. And the last few years have been a circus act with the coaching staff playing musical chairs. Every time I see someone trying to fire off a hot take saying brown or Tatum needs to get traded I instantly mark whoever is saying that as foolish. There are teams who have gone decades without picking and developing a player as good as either of them, and the Celtics shouldn’t take it for granted they’d be able to do it again. The “trade smart” crowd also drives me crazy. The Boston talk radio/globe columnist crowd produces hysterical idiocy that most other markets don’t have.


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[GOATcards]

He dropped 51 on the 76ers to basically single handedly take that series…


in reply to that:

I do think my problem with Tatum is he vanishes in the biggest moments.

:confused:

[boxbuster7]

in reply to that:



:confused:

0 fourth quarter field goals in the first 2 games against the heat. Back to back traveling calls in final possessions in the 1st game. That 51 point game he had was 1 good game. Most of us need to see more consistency from him before we take him seriously as a top 5 player in the league.

[Nomad]

I think Tatum and the Celtics have a really good practice regimen to address mistakes. As I remember they use a practice squad with the attributes of each of the other team's players and do drills centered on specific situations that arose.

[Mattsurewood]

https://media.tenor.com/llLDanfaqggAAAAM/creepy-guy-behind-plant.gif

[ballhawkdawk]

0 fourth quarter field goals in the first 2 games against the heat. Back to back traveling calls in final possessions in the 1st game. That 51 point game he had was 1 good game. Most of us need to see more consistency from him before we take him seriously as a top 5 player in the league.

Maybe. There are like a dozen “top 5” guys, though. But to say he vanishes in big moments simply isn’t true. You could argue he’s inconsistent in the playoffs, but he almost single handedly willed the Celtics past the Sixers at the end of game 6 and then for the entirety of game 7. His game 7 performance was ungodly. He wasn’t just scoring, but hitting very difficult shots that were well contested. He’s also played great defense all playoffs.

[fabiani12333]

The Celtics are trying to recreate the magic of the '04 Boston Red Sox.

https://bdc2020.o0bc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ortiz-horford-768x432.jpg?width=900

[TawkCards]

Let's go Celtics!!!!!

[Nomad]

dang Horford played for Bosox back then? or is this AI

[AwesomeBrian]

He dropped 51 on the 76ers to basically single handedly take that series….I feel like that’s elite, top guy stuff. This will be seen as sacrilege here but give me Tatum over Luka or Embiid 11/10 times


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Well neither of the 3 gonna win anything, so you're not wrong comparing them

[mc1]

dang Horford played for Bosox back then? or is this AI

Nah man. Horford is old but not that old. He entered the league in 2007. Hes also from the Dominican Republic so theres likely a bond through that.

[tjforce]

Please delete

Blowout Mods:
https://media.tenor.com/eAt5EfLNIuEAAAAC/joaquin-phoenix-commodus.gif

[pcptrade]

Please delete

https://media4.giphy.com/media/y0DI4w3LGA12w/giphy.gif

[NBAicons]

That was a spanking. I’m sure we’ll hear injury excuses for Tatum just like we did last year in the Finals. But to be blown out by an eight seed in game seven on your home floor, that is just embarrassing.

[mfw13]

Quite simply, the fact that the two stars who the team is built around, Tatum and Brown, are not good enough.

The Celtics surrounded them with just about as good a supporting cast as a team can have, but their two stars didn't get the job done.

It's that simple.

[gomiamigo]

13 points in an elimination game. At home. In game 7.

I'd say Tatum is the problem. He tried to give up G6 vs the 76ers but they couldn't buy a 4th Q shot and then he finally made a couple after starting 1 for 16 or whatever.

You wanna be elite you can't show up 1 of 3 games. That's why Harden isn't elite.

Celtic mgmt gonna have no one to blame but themselves when they give Jaylen $275m for a contract that starts in 2024.

[KhalDrogo]

Tatum is the textbook definition of inconsistent. Inconsistency doesn’t win championships.
Ahem.

[ninjacookies]

Celts had a massive size advantage 1-5 over Miami. But yet again, the modern money ball algorithm forced them to live and die by the 3, instead of leveraging their strengths down low.

Fakers befell the same fate.

Both winnable series' where the team was their own worst enemy.

[Nomad]

They were getting beat up down low. They couldn't take it.

[Arianny_Fan]

Celts had a massive size advantage 1-5 over Miami. But yet again, the modern money ball algorithm forced them to live and die by the 3, instead of leveraging their strengths down low.

Fakers befell the same fate.

Both winnable series' where the team was their own worst enemy.

Yep. I guess zero points is better than 2 points on the board. I felt the same way watching the 76ers do the same thing.:doh: and this is coming from a non 76er fan.

[brothertona]

This is totally NBA2K but let's say the Blazers trade you #3 + Simons for Jaylen Brown knowing the Pacers want to trade up does that same package get you #7 + #26 + Myles Turner? Celtics draft one of Hendricks/Black/Wallace and in the back half of the draft you get one of Jett Howard/James Nnaji/Jaime Jaquez Jr.? Then finish the off-season by bringing back Gallo and you've got a little more depth, a functioning big, and some room for development as the roster is getting more expensive.

[rifleman69]

Celts had a massive size advantage 1-5 over Miami. But yet again, the modern money ball algorithm forced them to live and die by the 3, instead of leveraging their strengths down low.

Fakers befell the same fate.

Both winnable series' where the team was their own worst enemy.

it's no surprise to me

[rifleman69]

This is totally NBA2K but let's say the Blazers trade you #3 + Simons for Jaylen Brown knowing the Pacers want to trade up does that same package get you #7 + #26 + Myles Turner? Celtics draft one of Hendricks/Black/Wallace and in the back half of the draft you get one of Jett Howard/James Nnaji/Jaime Jaquez Jr.? Then finish the off-season by bringing back Gallo and you've got a little more depth, a functioning big, and some room for development as the roster is getting more expensive.

Keep smoking/injecting that good stuff.

[Nomad]

I wouldn't be surprised to see J Brown go to Pacers TBH. Celtics may finally realize they ain't doing nothing without young legs. And Pacers, with cap space to spare, can only use like 2 of their 5 picks. Hield would fit with D White and the like. Turner isn't going anywhere, he wants to be part of this team. And Brown and crash are old sparring partners.

Question is did Brown's market value dip enough to make this possible?

[JRX]

Who is the leader on the team?

[Asian62150]

The head coach and stars get the most credit when they win, and they get the most blame when they lose.

And as you advance in the playoffs, the lights are brighter, so the success and failures are amplified. That's why the Celtics losing to the Heat will get more pub than the Heat taking out the Bucks in R1 (which is more embarrassing on paper). The Knicks probably view this as a successful season, especially now that their loss to the Heat looks better than it did 2 weeks ago.

Celtics failed at reaching their ultimate goal, but they still finished as a top 4 team. For a team that made the Finals last year and brought back the main core, it's a disappointment. But I don't think the Celtics need to make wholesale changes to get over the hump.

They do need to stop relying on 3s so much though.

[JRX]

The head coach and stars get the most credit when they win, and they get the most blame when they lose.

And as you advance in the playoffs, the lights are brighter, so the success and failures are amplified. That's why the Celtics losing to the Heat will get more pub than the Heat taking out the Bucks in R1 (which is more embarrassing on paper). The Knicks probably view this as a successful season, especially now that their loss to the Heat looks better than it did 2 weeks ago.

Celtics failed at reaching their ultimate goal, but they still finished as a top 4 team. For a team that made the Finals last year and brought back the main core, it's a disappointment. But I don't think the Celtics need to make wholesale changes to get over the hump.

They do need to stop relying on 3s so much though.

Its not just that they lost, its the way they lost. They continually got outplayed at home and threw up maybe the biggest home game 7 stinker of all time. If it was a close game and it came down to someone on the hit hitting a last second shot you could maybe feel better, but they didn't even show up last night.

[letsgocapitals]

Tatum and Brown are still both very young. Chill brah.

[NBAicons]

Who is the leader on the team?

It’s Al Horford, although last night it looked like Derrick White. And this is one of the most crucial problems with the team.

[HeyRelaxGuy]

Horford didn't do squat. I would still keep Tatum and Brown together though. Maybe add another star?

[Spacemanspif]

Horford didn't do squat. I would still keep Tatum and Brown together though. Maybe add another star?

Those guys are going to be making over $100M combined going forward.

[NBAicons]

Horford didn't do squat.

I agree, which is one of the main reasons why it’s a problem that he is looked to for leadership. The leader should be Tatum, but while a good player he’s just not a leader.

[BlueXtreme]

I said it in another thread. I’ll say it here. Idk if it’s true. But I read Tatum had the lowest FG% in the entire nba off the dribble.
Another thing is.. Him and Jaylen while good to great. May not complement each other.

[mcgee2134]

Is making it the conference finals or nba finals over and over again a lack of success? So they've been #2 to #4 in the league out of 30 teams over the last 5 years, I would call that successfual.

How many teams have not made a finals or conference finals in the last decade? I'm sure Minnesota and Sacramento would be stoked to be in their shoes.

[pcptrade]

Horford didn't do squat.

Apparently he was coaching the team and took them to Top Golf. :)

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/.amp/latest-news/bill-simmons-says-al-horford-was-coaching-celtics-in-game-7-vs-miami