Kurt's Card Care

[Eagle]

I didn't see a thread and if there is one, my apologies.

Anyone like this product? Does it actually work on dimples/scratches or is it just basically car wax?

I'm sure this is controversial on some level to some people here.

Thanks!

[PLB9eight]

Buckle up

[FrmDaLeftCoast]

I like the product...and when in doubt, I can reach out to him for assistance and/or opinion and he replies back. It's not going to work miracles...but will improve the overall look. Most importantly patience is required.

[Eagle]

I like the product...and when in doubt, I can reach out to him for assistance and/or opinion and he replies back. It's not going to work miracles...but will improve the overall look. Most importantly patience is required.

Thank you!

[mjohnatgt]

Considered card alteration by many. Filling in holes/scratches exceeds proper card preparation like wiping off fingerprints.

[kingchromium24]

Considered card alteration by many. Filling in holes/scratches exceeds proper card preparation like wiping off fingerprints.

Yep just a microfilm cloth to rub off dirt, dust, fingerprints….anything more than that I would consider altering the card

[Scottish Punk]

Yep just a microfilm cloth to rub off dirt, dust, fingerprints….anything more than that I would consider altering the card

I am in the same camp as you. However, if you use Kurt's goop and buff out some print lines without any evidence left behind, how are you going to know? The grading companies can't detect if polish has been used. We all could easily have a purchased graded card which was polished right now. My biggest concern is that this polish wears off or makes the card worse over time.

"soaking" tobacco cards have been a thing for a long time as far as I have read. Some of Kurt's stuff (humidor) is really no different. I think a lot of this will become normalized going forward whether us "old" collectors like it or not. Bulk submitters will offer cleaning as an add-on when sending to PSA,SGC,etc. Results will speak for themselves whether good or bad.

[dribbler]

Using his and other card/wax polishes leads to alteration that can't be spotted right now. If it tricks a grading company and makes money, it's gonna keep happening.

[mc1]

Using his and other card/wax polishes leads to alteration that can't be spotted right now. If it tricks a grading company and makes money, it's gonna keep happening.

Key words, “right now”. Shame!

[discodanman45]

Do I need to buy the paper cutter separately or does it come with the elite card care package?

[Boostedwrx]

Do I need to buy the paper cutter separately or does it come with the elite card care package?

:D:D:D

[daveyc1]

it is alteration plain and simple. I dont see any other way to look at it.

keep in mind, we have zero idea what his "goop" is going to do to a cards surface 25 years from now. who knows, could it cause some sort of greening like on some finest refractors? break down the cards gloss over time? we dont know.

it is dishonest and a stupid thing to do.

[RustyDawg37]

love it, use it on everything i submit.

:)!

[mrchipz]

it is alteration plain and simple. I dont see any other way to look at it.

keep in mind, we have zero idea what his "goop" is going to do to a cards surface 25 years from now. who knows, could it cause some sort of greening like on some finest refractors? break down the cards gloss over time? we dont know.

it is dishonest and a stupid thing to do.

You seriously think wiping scratches off a card is alteration?

Its no different then cleaning a window or waxing your car.

I have been doing it for over 20 years and i have cards graded from that long ago and i can assure you nothing has or will happen to the surface.

I dont know what is actually in his "product" But there are much better and cheaper things to use for cleaning card surfaces of chrome cards.

[discodanman45]

You seriously think wiping scratches off a card is alteration?

You can't wipe a scratch off a card. If a chrome card has a topcoat, I guess you could even out the surface to make it disappear. You could also make it disappear by using a filler.

Wiping a card is fine. I also don't mind removing wax stains with glossier type cards. Removing wax stains on older cardboard stock would involve some type of more questionable techniques.

[daveyc1]

You seriously think wiping scratches off a card is alteration?

Its no different then cleaning a window or waxing your car.

I have been doing it for over 20 years and i have cards graded from that long ago and i can assure you nothing has or will happen to the surface.

I dont know what is actually in his "product" But there are much better and cheaper things to use for cleaning card surfaces of chrome cards.

it absolutely IS alteration. and apparently you have been altering cards for over 20 years. congragulations.

you wipe fingerprints off a card. to remove scratches you have only 2 options: use an abrasive, wax, to bring the gloss down to the level of the scratches or you can use a filler to fill the scratches. either way you are either removing gloss or adding filler to scratches.

see, alteration. easy, right?

[KhalDrogo]

You seriously think wiping scratches off a card is alteration?

Its no different then cleaning a window or waxing your car.

I have been doing it for over 20 years and i have cards graded from that long ago and i can assure you nothing has or will happen to the surface.

I dont know what is actually in his "product" But there are much better and cheaper things to use for cleaning card surfaces of chrome cards.
Yikes.

Do you sell under your own name on eBay? I’d like to make sure I don’t buy from you.

[YayNJ]

the people who use Kurts are the same people that bought Safemoon, and the same people that in the 2019/20 season started messaging everyone on ebay 'wud this grade a 10?!'

[larry25]

it is alteration plain and simple. I dont see any other way to look at it.

keep in mind, we have zero idea what his "goop" is going to do to a cards surface 25 years from now. who knows, could it cause some sort of greening like on some finest refractors? break down the cards gloss over time? we dont know.

it is dishonest and a stupid thing to do.

It's wax, right? Wouldn't this chemically protect the card longer? Interesting thread.

[duron]

I didn't see a thread and if there is one, my apologies.

Anyone like this product? Does it actually work on dimples/scratches or is it just basically car wax?

I'm sure this is controversial on some level to some people here.

Thanks!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1520281

You’re welcome!

[varjakpaul]

Does this product leave any kind of residue? Does it show under black lights or anything similar?

[duron]

Does this product leave any kind of residue? Does it show under black lights or anything similar?

Don’t worry! I assure you your alteration work will NOT be detected by TPGs!

[varjakpaul]

Don’t worry! I assure you your alteration work will NOT be detected by TPGs!

Oh, I have no interest in using this, I just cannot imagine this sort of thing not leaving obvious evidence if anybody's sincerely looking for it.

[duron]

Oh, I have no interest in using this, I just cannot imagine this sort of thing not leaving obvious evidence if anybody's sincerely looking for it.

https://images.genius.com/fb404b93155dcf1c346269c4b73d4aa1.500x500x1.jpg

[JeremyNick]

Does this product leave any kind of residue? Does it show under black lights or anything similar?

The way half of the hobby goes full mojo happy dance when they pull anything not base, I don’t want to look at their cards under a black light.

[discodanman45]

The way half of the hobby goes full mojo happy dance when they pull anything not base, I don’t want to look at their cards under a black light.

None of my cards will ever be looked at under a black light now. I may have to stop collecting at this point. :eek:

[CardFarmer]

Go watch his youtube videos. Anyone who could consider this NOT altering a card has noodles for brains.

[BBases31]

Don’t worry! I assure you your alteration work will NOT be detected by TPGs!

The issue is probably that it's too far gone already and PSA is boxed into a corner into not being able to do anything. Imagine how many tens of thousands of cards already in PSA cases you could just shine a black light over and see residue, all would be subject to getting returned. They'll never police this stuff

[duron]

The issue is probably that it's too far gone already and PSA is boxed into a corner into not being able to do anything. Imagine how many tens of thousands of cards already in PSA cases you could just shine a black light over and see residue, all would be subject to getting returned. They'll never police this stuff

I’ve basically said the the same thing in the thread I linked a page back.

At least one half of IG’s high end card collecting brother tandem is a happy Kurt's kustomer. Ignore the card, can see the kit on the left.

Let me stress, this is not a “gotcha!” This is further indication that we are likely too far gone. The percentage of altered crap out there has to be higher than the already relatively high estimates.

https://i.imgur.com/mXIXGDzl.jpg

[larry25]

The issue is probably that it's too far gone already and PSA is boxed into a corner into not being able to do anything. Imagine how many tens of thousands of cards already in PSA cases you could just shine a black light over and see residue, all would be subject to getting returned. They'll never police this stuff

*Tens of thousands!* :cry: More like 100s of thousands, if not millions. And the more expensive and higher grade the card is, the more likely it has had something done to it.

[daveyc1]

people can rationalize anything. sad really

[bub838]

I didn't think this stuff worked to begin with, how can you remove a print line or dimple?

[Scottish Punk]

Is it confirmed that a black light reveals leftover Kurt goop? That seems like an easy thing for the graders to notice.

[mc1]

I didn't think this stuff worked to begin with, how can you remove a print line or dimple?

Print lines and scratches arent the same thing.;)

[KeltonB]

Hmmm...

[varjakpaul]

Oooh CGC going hard on alterations after they whiffed on all those Pokémon “errors” that were just a guy slicing cards with scissors to test them

[duron]

Hmmm...

Other: Kurted

[PLB9eight]

Hmmm...


Anything show up with a black light?

[Boostedwrx]

I'm a little apprehensive to mention, because I'd never do any of this, but coming from the auto world an ISO wipe would get rid of any left over residue.

[dunkindutchmen]

I'm a little apprehensive to mention, because I'd never do any of this, but coming from the auto world an ISO wipe would get rid of any left over residue.

Don't worry, it's common sense.

[daveyc1]

Hmmm...


I am glad they caught it.

[Wphusic]

it is alteration plain and simple. I dont see any other way to look at it.

keep in mind, we have zero idea what his "goop" is going to do to a cards surface 25 years from now. who knows, could it cause some sort of greening like on some finest refractors? break down the cards gloss over time? we dont know.

it is dishonest and a stupid thing to do.

Some of it is “alteration” (filling in scratches) but I was just turned on to this guy after the third time I spotted Kurt’s Card Care in some 20K+ follower IG card seller account.

I watched a video where he fixed a corner of a Joe Montana card. All he did was use a humidor and flatten out the corner where it had been pushed up, and made it look a lot better. He added no material and just rubbed the corner with a card tool. He did the same with a thicker Kobe Bryant card, just used a humidor and smoothed out the edges. He didn’t put any magic chemical on it or paint it or anything weird. Not card alteration. Not even close.

TBH you’re shooting yourself in the foot if you don’t fix issues like that when they arise if they’re clearly fixable.

[mikecala98]

I recently bought a scrapbook with a 48 Bowman Rizzuto rookie taped inside. I may consider using his product to remove the paper off the back.

[Y2Hood]

My personal opinion is that I'm not going to use this product for my PC or cards I'm selling. I'm with holding judgement on collectors that use it as I try not to project my values. I do observe that there are more people warm to the product than I expected. That surprised me.

[daveyc1]

Some of it is “alteration” (filling in scratches) but I was just turned on to this guy after the third time I spotted Kurt’s Card Care in some 20K+ follower IG card seller account.

I watched a video where he fixed a corner of a Joe Montana card. All he did was use a humidor and flatten out the corner where it had been pushed up, and made it look a lot better. He added no material and just rubbed the corner with a card tool. He did the same with a thicker Kobe Bryant card, just used a humidor and smoothed out the edges. He didn’t put any magic chemical on it or paint it or anything weird. Not card alteration. Not even close.

TBH you’re shooting yourself in the foot if you don’t fix issues like that when they arise if they’re clearly fixable.

Listen to yourself...

your words: "he fixed a corner of a Joe Montana card" "He did the same to a thicker kobe bryant" "not card alteration. not even close"

now, what was he doing when he "fixed" those 2 cards? really pay attention here.

HE ALTERED THEM.

the cards had been damaged. he "fixed" them. that is absolutely alteration.

now I realize you probably have been in the hobby for a total of about 20 minutes, but for decades, the exact same thing you just described has been considered alteration. Decades.

all you are doing is justifying a deceptive practice. If you truly believe "fixing" corners is not altering or that there is nothing wrong/deceptive in doing so, why dont you disclose EXACTLY what was "fixed" the next time you sub to PSA and see what they have to say about it.

you know, if you dont think it is alteration and all...

[daveyc1]

My personal opinion is that I'm not going to use this product for my PC or cards I'm selling. I'm with holding judgement on collectors that use it as I try not to project my values. I do observe that there are more people warm to the product than I expected. That surprised me.

would you be happy owning a card that has been "fixed" or "altered?"

Say you had a choice between 2 1955 Clementes in PSA 6.

one got that way from honest wear over the years and one was originally a PSA 4 and was "fixed" to make it a PSA 6.

which do you choose, assuming the price was the same.

[cfern023]

Listen to yourself...

your words: "he fixed a corner of a Joe Montana card" "He did the same to a thicker kobe bryant" "not card alteration. not even close"

now, what was he doing when he "fixed" those 2 cards? really pay attention here.

HE ALTERED THEM.

the cards had been damaged. he "fixed" them. that is absolutely alteration.

now I realize you probably have been in the hobby for a total of about 20 minutes, but for decades, the exact same thing you just described has been considered alteration. Decades.

all you are doing is justifying a deceptive practice. If you truly believe "fixing" corners is not altering or that there is nothing wrong/deceptive in doing so, why dont you disclose EXACTLY what was "fixed" the next time you sub to PSA and see what they have to say about it.

you know, if you dont think it is alteration and all...

You know what, I wonder how PSA would look at a card / grade a card if you admitted to fixing flaws without chemicals?

Has ANYONE submitted a card and disclosed that? Can someone?

[MJGOAT23]

He just puts the dinged or frayed corners back where they were if the material is still intact with the little corner tool or uses humidity with paper cards to help surface dents and dings. This is a battle of semantics. You could call it restoration if you want but there's no cutting or trimming or sharpening or addition or subtraction of anything in the way that art or a car is restored with new materials or parts etc.

Why not get even more technical though... mishandling of cards, poor storage of cards, leaving them exposed to sunlight, throwing them against the wall to see which ones stand up or placing them in bike spokes are all also "alteration" of a card so, therefore all of your PSA 1/2/3/4/5/6 cards are "altered".

[mc1]

He just puts the dinged or frayed corners back where they were if the material is still intact with the little corner tool or uses humidity with paper cards to help surface dents and dings. This is a battle of semantics. You could call it restoration if you want but there's no cutting or trimming or sharpening or addition or subtraction of anything in the way that art or a car is restored with new materials or parts etc.

Why not get even more technical though... mishandling of cards, poor storage of cards, leaving them exposed to sunlight, throwing them against the wall to see which ones stand up or placing them in bike spokes are all also "alteration" of a card so, therefore all of your PSA 1/2/3/4/5/6 cards are "altered".

Thats called wear and tear. Damage.

The opposite of that is “fixing”.

[Wphusic]

Listen to yourself...

your words: "he fixed a corner of a Joe Montana card" "He did the same to a thicker kobe bryant" "not card alteration. not even close"

now, what was he doing when he "fixed" those 2 cards? really pay attention here.

HE ALTERED THEM.

the cards had been damaged. he "fixed" them. that is absolutely alteration.

now I realize you probably have been in the hobby for a total of about 20 minutes, but for decades, the exact same thing you just described has been considered alteration. Decades.

all you are doing is justifying a deceptive practice. If you truly believe "fixing" corners is not altering or that there is nothing wrong/deceptive in doing so, why dont you disclose EXACTLY what was "fixed" the next time you sub to PSA and see what they have to say about it.

you know, if you dont think it is alteration and all...

Using humidity to bring the corners back and flatten them out like they were isn’t altering anymore than washing a car, dude. “Oh no! Someone scuffed my car! I better not buff it out when I sell it or else that’s being deceptive.” Listen to yourself. Do you get mad at stores for ironing shirts before you buy them? It’d be different if he was trimming, coloring in edges, etc.. You’re just being a stubborn purist. Cool, if you wanna shoot yourself in the foot, that’s great. Putting a card in a humidor to flatten out a finger nail mark isn’t altering, sorry bud. If the material on the card is still there, and you’re only using the card and humidity, do it. You gonna try and tell me you never put a bent card under a book and let it flatten out for a day? No different. But by all means send stuff in for grading that are easily fixable.

Edit: I couldn’t care less what PSA thinks about it. Grading is such BS, I only do it because it looks good and sells more. With what those guys charge per card and making me wait 2+ months, I’m going to do all I can to get a good grade.

[KhalDrogo]

Don’t think anyone here needs card advice from a guy who needs his LCS to pre-grade his cards.

[mc1]

Edit: I couldn’t care less what PSA thinks about it. Grading is such BS, I only do it because it looks good and sells more. With what those guys charge per card and making me wait 2+ months, I’m going to do all I can to get a good grade.

Next time you send your doctored and altered cards to PSA include notes in your submission to inform PSA about them. Lets see what they do to your account(s). Maybe thats why you have to submit through your LCS:)!

[mjohnatgt]

Repairing dings and removing the creases from corners that need to folded back are definitely altering the card, and the grading companies should be able to spot it and mark the card altered.

You can't disclose to PSA that your card is unaltered, because they make you sign the submission form stating that you did not alter them. That's how their grade guarantee can absolve them of reimbursement for people who alter them, get them into number grade slabs, then ask PSA to give them the difference in value between the grade and the altered value.

Just because "everyone is doing it", that doesn't mean it's not card alteration. It is.

[discodanman45]

The two things I do are flip back corners, and I will remove wax stains on cards with panty hose if it is a glossy surface. Once you start using any sprays or tools, it has gone too far. I guess you could say that using panty hose to remove a wax stain is a tool. However, it is acceptable for me. Nothing is more gross than a 1986-87 NBA Fleer Stickers with those wax stains on the back.

The problem right now is that this type of restoration is now acceptable on cards. This people like Kurt's Card Care set up right next to the card grading companies at shows. It doesn't matter, in about 10 years there will be a card grading company that will offer services to restore cards like comic books with your submission. I hate what is becoming acceptable, but it is happening.

[Scottish Punk]

The two things I do are flip back corners, and I will remove wax stains on cards with panty hose if it is a glossy surface. Once you start using any sprays or tools, it has gone too far. I guess you could say that using panty hose to remove a wax stain is a tool. However, it is acceptable for me. Nothing is more gross than a 1986-87 NBA Fleer Stickers with those wax stains on the back.

The problem right now is that this type of restoration is now acceptable on cards. This people like Kurt's Card Care set up right next to the card grading companies at shows. It doesn't matter, in about 10 years there will be a card grading company that will offer services to restore cards like comic books with your submission. I hate what is becoming acceptable, but it is happening.

I do think the new collectors and especially flippers (since the card is sold and no longer the flippers problem) don't really care about alteration. The slab washes away all sins. I wouldn't be surprised if a grading company offered a pre clean service of some kind. My first guess would be CGC. They do it for comics and they don't have any great reputation in the sports card side. Maybe they do it to try to boost market share.

[KhalDrogo]

The next numerical grade slab I see sold where the seller admits it’s altered will be the first.

[BBases31]

The two things I do are flip back corners

What is the difference between you flipping back corners and him using a piece of metal to do it?

I don't know about this this Kurt guy but what that poster is describing is all he's doing to "fix" the corners, it seems fine to considering pushing back corners is allowed. The Juan Soto Update Platinum had a nasty corner "pushed back" that took it up a couple grades and everyone was defending that as allowable

[larry25]

What is the difference between you flipping back corners and him using a piece of metal to do it?

I don't know about this this Kurt guy but what that poster is describing is all he's doing to "fix" the corners, it seems fine to considering pushing back corners is allowed. The Juan Soto Update Platinum had a nasty corner "pushed back" that took it up a couple grades and everyone was defending that as allowable

A flipped corner, while small, is nevertheless a version of a card folded in on itself or creased or wrinkled. So what's the difference, then, between fixing a flipped corner, or pushed-in edge, or a card folded in half?

[rohara99]

The next numerical grade slab I see sold where the seller admits it’s altered will be the first.

Uhhhh.... lol

http://img.beckett.com/news/news-content/uploads/2012/07/Wagner.jpg

I guess it was "disclosed" much later after it was sold.

[discodanman45]

What is the difference between you flipping back corners and him using a piece of metal to do it?

I don't know about this this Kurt guy but what that poster is describing is all he's doing to "fix" the corners, it seems fine to considering pushing back corners is allowed. The Juan Soto Update Platinum had a nasty corner "pushed back" that took it up a couple grades and everyone was defending that as allowable

Once you use a tool like in the Kurt's kit along with a spray, it takes it a bit far in my opinion. You are trying to manipulate the surface to hide or alter the surface to make the fix undetectable.

There are so many gray areas here that this is a very difficult to say it is right or wrong. I am fine with someone trying to push back a corner, but I am not fine with someone polishing a card. I am fine with removing wax stains with panty hose, but not trying to use a liquid to pull out a wax stain from vintage cardboard. If you have fibers from a card that you want removed is it ok to run your finger across it? Some people might be ok with this, but not using painters tape to do it.

Grading cards has caused so many issues in this hobby. Sure people would alter cards without grading, but the premiums put on higher grades has definitely made it worse.

[Maverik]

Dropping a card and getting a ding on the corner is "altering a card." Using KCC techniques is "unaltering" a card.

[thenightman]

Dropping a card and getting a ding on the corner is "altering a card." Using KCC techniques is "unaltering" a card.

That's a very loose definition of "altering" and "unaltering".

[Maverik]

That's a very loose definition of "altering" and "unaltering".

It's one of many

[hxcmilkshake]

Dropping a card and getting a ding on the corner is "altering a card." Using KCC techniques is "unaltering" a card.So why aren't all cards with dings graded as altered?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[thenightman]

It's one of many

True. There are many definitions once the definition becomes loose.

[Cards and 401K]

Yep I dropped a Trout RC and dinged a corner became a PSA 8 it happens…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mc1]

Dropping a card and getting a ding on the corner is "altering a card." Using KCC techniques is "unaltering" a card.

Thats called damage.

Anything to Alter, fix or restore is not “unaltering”. Call it what it is.

[SteigerWRX]

Thats called damage.

Anything to Alter, fix or restore is not “unaltering”. Call it what it is.

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

al·ter
/ˈôltər/

verb

change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way.

So by the literal definition of the word, damaging a card is "altering" it.

[mc1]

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

al·ter
/ˈôltər/

verb

change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way.

So by the literal definition of the word, damaging a card is "altering" it.

Ok, PSA should slap and grade all cards with dinged corners as “altered”.

[varjakpaul]

the pedantic discussion of calling damage "altered" when everyone knows that's not the issue in question is why people think collectors are all the comic book guy from the simpsons

[Scottish Punk]

the pedantic discussion of calling damage "altered" when everyone knows that's not the issue in question is why people think collectors are all the comic book guy from the simpsons

Best alteration, ever..

[Stringmusic]

the pedantic discussion of calling damage "altered" when everyone knows that's not the issue in question is why people think collectors are all the comic book guy from the simpsons

lol, I picture that guy a lot when reading through threads.

[Scottish Punk]

Bumping this thread for a question. I don't want this go right back to if waxing cards is altered or not. My question is, do we think any of the grading companies any better at detecting this. I bring this up because I came across a Nothing but Cardboard video with them cleaning a 2020 Optic Burrow downtown. It went from a PSA 7 to a PSA 10. Currently 3k on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/404700042905?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=wfj1s9cstca&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=8YZyGwaFRim&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Personally if I was spending 3k on this card and than came across the video of it being cleaned, I would have some major regrets with it. This example is not to bash NBC, it is just an example.

[KeltonB]

Yikes. On an 86F MJ.

https://youtu.be/LWuaizTLJfQ?si=DdrxfKK92beTd0wQ

[PLB9eight]

Yikes. On an 86F MJ.

https://youtu.be/LWuaizTLJfQ?si=DdrxfKK92beTd0wQ


Would you want the before or after?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RedStar]

it is alteration plain and simple. I dont see any other way to look at it.

keep in mind, we have zero idea what his "goop" is going to do to a cards surface 25 years from now. who knows, could it cause some sort of greening like on some finest refractors? break down the cards gloss over time? we dont know.

it is dishonest and a stupid thing to do.

You know what else is alteration? When the factory worker at Topps presses down on print equipment and leaves lines and scratches on the card. But you don't seem to have an issue with that. "That's just how it came." lol ok.

[mc1]

You know what else is alteration? When the factory worker at Topps presses down on print equipment and leaves lines and scratches on the card. But you don't seem to have an issue with that. "That's just how it came." lol ok.

Thats called damage.

[Dielon]

Anyone who uses this is a complete noob.

[Stifle]

I can understand both sides of the argument. It just seems like any product on a card would be more harmful than positive.

If anybody were to find a pack of 1952 Topps baseball cards, open them up and find a beautiful Mantle card that had the back side next to a piece of 72 year old gum. In 52, it was Topps first year of placing gum in the packs. Would I wish I could remove the gum stains on the back of that card ? Yes, I would but I wouldn’t attempt it.

Last question, If there was a product that could take the gum stains off a Mantle 52 Topps card because Topps realizes it’s old ways we’re negative “Gum”, would you use the product ?

[Stifle]

Do the grading companies consider this product as a alteration ? Isn’t that a key to the answer?

[Scottish Punk]

Do the grading companies consider this product as a alteration ? Isn’t that a key to the answer?

Yes they would. Problem is they can't seem to tell it was used when they are grading the card. Same as the micro trimming.

[PLB9eight]

Do the grading companies consider this product as a alteration ? Isn’t that a key to the answer?


Since when did grading companies become the gatekeepers and governing body of the hobby? It’s just their opinion, just like any grade on a card is.

[jplarson]

Since when did grading companies become the gatekeepers and governing body of the hobby?

The hobby voted them in with their economic dollars. People don't have to listen to the standards TPG's put out, but there's enough money in it that most people do.

It’s just their opinion, just like any grade on a card is.

I'll see your "it's just their opinion" bet and raise you one "it's just your opinion"! Boom, straight yahtzee flush checkmate bingo.

[PLB9eight]

The hobby voted them in with their economic dollars. People don't have to listen to the standards TPG's put out, but there's enough money in it that most people do.



I'll see your "it's just their opinion" bet and raise you one "it's just your opinion"! Boom, straight yahtzee flush checkmate bingo.


[emoji102]

[rentz]

Yes they would. Problem is they can't seem to tell it was used when they are grading the card. Same as the micro trimming.

i think sgc has a video out there addressing that when asked and it was basically if they can detect it was altered and said issue is being able to tell on some cases.

[Stifle]

Since when did grading companies become the gatekeepers and governing body of the hobby? It’s just their opinion, just like any grade on a card is.

We are the gatekeepers. I’m asking a serious question. Since Topps realized it’s mistake of placing gum which can damage the value of the product in its packs. Does a purchaser of a Topps card from 52-?? have the right to alter what the Company now sees as a flaw in selling its product? It’s a fair question. I wouldn’t do it because cardboard is fragile and what certainties would be guaranteed to fix what Topps horribly considered as a selling point.

You don’t sell the $10,000 watch in order to have a $50 watch band. It’s the watch that makes the sale and Topps learned from its mistake. Who pays for the mistake?

[Stifle]

i think sgc has a video out there addressing that when asked and it was basically if they can detect it was altered and said issue is being able to tell on some cases.

What would happen if Topps came out with a product that would make gum stains come off their product? Wouldn’t that put a wrench in the system?

[YayNJ]

Kurts is a product of, and only exists because of demand in one of the most dishonest and corrupt 'hobbies' going.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[TheGoatOfLife]

Kurt's card wax is cool! I apply it to all my cards that I send into GEM grading! I even stroke my face every morning with his wax and wash my hair with his liquid! I feel slightly altered and hey if you like me less because I am not my original self then unfriend me on Facebook!

[larry25]

Kurt's card wax is cool! I apply it to all my cards that I send into GEM grading! I even stroke my face every morning with his wax and wash my hair with his liquid! I feel slightly altered and hey if you like me less because I am not my original self then unfriend me on Facebook!

...N5!

[jplarson]

Kurt's card wax is cool! I apply it to all my cards that I send into GEM grading! I even stroke my face every morning with his wax and wash my hair with his liquid! I feel slightly altered and hey if you like me less because I am not my original self then unfriend me on Facebook!

Authentic Altered. :)!

[Stifle]

I remember buying all kinds of Topps products back in 73 - 80’s. I didn’t purchase the product with the intent of collecting or chewing all the gum. Topps realized decades after starting to place gum in packs in 52 that the idea was blatantly stupid. Topps ruined the quality of their product by this brainless move.

Do I feel like I had large amounts of cards that were altered by gum stains, yes. Do I alter cards for the benefit of having a better grade, no. The hobby is a lot like life, the accountability by altering cards in a negative way is forgiven for the top shareholders that make and agree to these horrible decisions, placing gum against cardboard, brilliant !

[Archangel1775]

The use of the humidor is interesting. I'm having an issue with a warped Topps Chrome card and curious if it'll help flatten it out. Right now I have an 35 pound weight sitting on top of a big book with the card inside of it. Just want to see if it works, if not, I'm out $5. Wait, does that mean I alter cards now?

[larry25]

The use of the humidor is interesting. I'm having an issue with a warped Topps Chrome card and curious if it'll help flatten it out. Right now I have an 35 pound weight sitting on top of a big book with the card inside of it. Just want to see if it works, if not, I'm out $5. Wait, does that mean I alter cards now?

Brother, to be effective, you're gonna have to forget about that card under the weight for about 2 years. Seriously. Okay, maybe not 2 full years, but maybe 6 months. Just don't expect miracles in 2 weeks ya filthy card molester. ;)

[mc1]

The use of the humidor is interesting. I'm having an issue with a warped Topps Chrome card and curious if it'll help flatten it out. Right now I have an 35 pound weight sitting on top of a big book with the card inside of it. Just want to see if it works, if not, I'm out $5. Wait, does that mean I alter cards now?

Ive left prizm and chrome cards in toploaders for a few months and they are fine without any weights.

[thestickman1]

Capitalism at it's finest. You can buy an 8oz bottle of Kurt's card spray for $59.99! Wow!! It's like buying a $240 bottle of single malt scotch. What is in that spray for that price? I guess, he wouldn't have it, if people didn't buy it.

[Archangel1775]

Capitalism at it's finest. You can buy an 8oz bottle of Kurt's card spray for $59.99! Wow!! It's like buying a $240 bottle of single malt scotch. What is in that spray for that price? I guess, he wouldn't have it, if people didn't buy it.

It would be funny if it was just distilled water. :)

[Bosoxfan5990]

Capitalism at it's finest. You can buy an 8oz bottle of Kurt's card spray for $59.99! Wow!! It's like buying a $240 bottle of single malt scotch. What is in that spray for that price? I guess, he wouldn't have it, if people didn't buy it.

Michael's Secret Stuff

[YouFold2Me]

QUOTE=Dielon;19244903]Anyone who uses this is a complete knob.[/QUOTE]

FYP

[YeahBuddy]

Capitalism at it's finest. You can buy an 8oz bottle of Kurt's card spray for $59.99! Wow!! It's like buying a $240 bottle of single malt scotch. What is in that spray for that price? I guess, he wouldn't have it, if people didn't buy it.

or buy the kit for much cheaper which comes with it. Unless prices have changed havent visited the site in a while.

[YeahBuddy]

It would be funny if it was just distilled water. :)

I'm sure water would do the same trick as the spray in regards to soaking it completely for the impression marks.

I'll be testing that theory out soon for fun.

[Stifle]

QUOTE=Dielon;19244903]Anyone who uses this is a complete knob.

FYP[/QUOTE]

It’s as equal to placing the back of a sports card against a substance that breaks down ! What kind of male chickens would do that, ones that are millionaires who are unaccountable for deciding to alter cards negatively with the hobby’s worst decision ?

[larry25]

FYP

It’s as equal to placing the back of a sports card against a substance that breaks down ! What kind of male chickens would do that, ones that are millionaires who are unaccountable for deciding to alter cards negatively with the hobby’s worst decision ?[/QUOTE]

Hablas muchas ingles?

[Cards and 401K]

PSA card damage to undamaged cards sent in is a real thing.


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[ArmyDC]

PSA card damage to undamaged cards sent in is a real thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Definitely a thing recently, they must have some real #@#@#@#@ ups in the assembly

[Stifle]

It’s as equal to placing the back of a sports card against a substance that breaks down ! What kind of male chickens would do that, ones that are millionaires who are unaccountable for deciding to alter cards negatively with the hobby’s worst decision ?

Hablas muchas ingles?[/QUOTE]

Don’t locate a substance like gum that is created to break down, and then place the gum against the cardboard which becomes stained ! I apologize for not structuring my sentence clearer.

Topps is the king of altering cards.

[SaveMeTheGum]

I use this simple test:

If you wouldn't disclose it in your listing, you know it's wrong, because you know you are altering the card.

I'm against it 100%, but there's no stopping the tidal wave at this point.

[PensFan7187]

The use of the humidor is interesting. I'm having an issue with a warped Topps Chrome card and curious if it'll help flatten it out. Right now I have an 35 pound weight sitting on top of a big book with the card inside of it. Just want to see if it works, if not, I'm out $5. Wait, does that mean I alter cards now?

I find this thread really interesting. Due to my age, I’d say I qualify as “old school.”

The hobby is full of hypocrisy. Let’s start with an easy premise. Almost everyone would agree that trimming a card is altering the card. Great! What about box bottoms? Not only is it considered okay to cut the box into 4 cards, grading companies passively encourage it by giving better grades to people who effectively mastered the art of trimming. Not only that but cutting a box bottom into individual cards is substantially altering the product as it was designed.

I’ll give a second example, the dreaded warped chrome cards. In this case, I would actually argue that if you use anything at all (weights, books, even other cards) you are technically altering the natural state of the card much more than using a humidor. I know, how so? One is nature and one is introducing an “unnatural” force. If I move to a more humid environment, those warped cards will actually flatten out on their own.

Last but not least is pantyhose to remove wax stains. Easy to argue that you are changing the card from the way it was delivered. How is fixing a factory flaw that way any different than removing glue with his spray? It really isn’t.

I honestly haven’t given any of this enough thought or research to draw my own conclusions but these were just some of my thoughts floating around in my head when I started reading this thread.

[inaka]

I find this thread really interesting. Due to my age, I’d say I qualify as “old school.”

The hobby is full of hypocrisy. Let’s start with an easy premise. Almost everyone would agree that trimming a card is altering the card. Great! What about box bottoms? Not only is it considered okay to cut the box into 4 cards, grading companies passively encourage it by giving better grades to people who effectively mastered the art of trimming. Not only that but cutting a box bottom into individual cards is substantially altering the product as it was designed.

I’ll give a second example, the dreaded warped chrome cards. In this case, I would actually argue that if you use anything at all (weights, books, even other cards) you are technically altering the natural state of the card much more than using a humidor. I know, how so? One is nature and one is introducing an “unnatural” force. If I move to a more humid environment, those warped cards will actually flatten out on their own.

Last but not least is pantyhose to remove wax stains. Easy to argue that you are changing the card from the way it was delivered. How is fixing a factory flaw that way any different than removing glue with his spray? It really isn’t.

I honestly haven’t given any of this enough thought or research to draw my own conclusions but these were just some of my thoughts floating around in my head when I started reading this thread.

I like this post.
I think like this as well.

I don't use this Kurt's Card Care stuff, but if I have a stadium club card with a high gloss finish or a card with a front mirror finish, I do take a microfiber and wipe it down. Is that "altering"? And what if I breathe a little "hoooaaahhh" on the surface a few times before wiping it down. Technically my breath is also applying moisture, so that could/is considered a similar "alteration" I guess?

And lastly, just a side note to anyone buying this guy's stuff. Stop and think about this for a moment. What "card spray" could you put on a card that wouldn't leave any residue, etc? What "card spray" would allow you to completely submerge a card in water for hours and not fade/destroy it?

It would have to be distilled water. I would bet money that his "card spray" is either 100% distilled water, or 95% distilled water and 5% rubbing alcohol, because anything else would cause unwanted issues.

So he's charging $60 for 8oz of thing of essentially distilled water? :eek: It's pretty clear it costs him more for the packaging and label printing at home to put his logo on the spray bottles that it does to "make" the solution.

My guess is that he'll start doing more videos where he "restores" cards by soaking/dunking them completely in his Card Spray™ for hours, because that means people think they need to buy his stuff.

That's another reason I would never buy/use his products, but not necessarily from an ethical standpoint but rather just from a practical one, but that's just me.

[imbluestreak23]

I find this thread really interesting. Due to my age, I’d say I qualify as “old school.”

The hobby is full of hypocrisy. Let’s start with an easy premise. Almost everyone would agree that trimming a card is altering the card. Great! What about box bottoms? Not only is it considered okay to cut the box into 4 cards, grading companies passively encourage it by giving better grades to people who effectively mastered the art of trimming. Not only that but cutting a box bottom into individual cards is substantially altering the product as it was designed.

I’ll give a second example, the dreaded warped chrome cards. In this case, I would actually argue that if you use anything at all (weights, books, even other cards) you are technically altering the natural state of the card much more than using a humidor. I know, how so? One is nature and one is introducing an “unnatural” force. If I move to a more humid environment, those warped cards will actually flatten out on their own.

Last but not least is pantyhose to remove wax stains. Easy to argue that you are changing the card from the way it was delivered. How is fixing a factory flaw that way any different than removing glue with his spray? It really isn’t.

I honestly haven’t given any of this enough thought or research to draw my own conclusions but these were just some of my thoughts floating around in my head when I started reading this thread.

Agree but disagree to an extent.

If I buy a brand new car and it comes with a fingerprint on the hood, I'm cleaning it off (pantyhose analogy)

[PensFan7187]

Agree but disagree to an extent.

If I buy a brand new car and it comes with a fingerprint on the hood, I'm cleaning it off (pantyhose analogy)

I’m just playing devil’s advocate and haven’t really fully formed my opinion either way. The sticky glue residue is the same as the wax stain though, isn’t it?

[thestickman1]

And lastly, just a side note to anyone buying this guy's stuff. Stop and think about this for a moment. What "card spray" could you put on a card that wouldn't leave any residue, etc? What "card spray" would allow you to completely submerge a card in water for hours and not fade/destroy it?

It would have to be distilled water. I would bet money that his "card spray" is either 100% distilled water, or 95% distilled water and 5% rubbing alcohol, because anything else would cause unwanted issues.


I have actually seen the spray. My friend uses it on his chrome cards to "shine them up". Anyway...it smells of rubbing alcohol. I don't know what the percentage of "distilled" water to alcohol is, but the alcohol smell is decently strong.

[waytoomanycards]

I have actually seen the spray. My friend uses it on his chrome cards to "shine them up". Anyway...it smells of rubbing alcohol. I don't know what the percentage of "distilled" water to alcohol is, but the alcohol smell is decently strong.

His soaking video hit my youtube feed yesterday. Your post made me curious what would happen to a common optic card soaked in rubbing alcohol. After about 10 minutes, the card's layers separated.

I'm sure his stuff is diluted, but I'll have to check back in a few months to see if any of his followers ask how to get their prizm mahomes rookie to stick back together lol. I never knew soaking modern cards was even a thing.

[YeahBuddy]

You dont have to use his spray to soak one up ... I tried it on a base optic and while I didnt get the drastic results he got simple water and let dry over small bursts did show improvement.

water was used to make the paper, all you are doing is letting water enter from the edges and puff the paper back out from the inside out. Once you have done it, you will know whether you did too much and created curl. so there's still risk.

[Scottish Punk]

so the cards that you soak and get the creases out? His Clemente card for example. Correct if I am wrong. Yes, that card looks a lot better. Might get a grade bump from a 1 to 2 or 3. After time, wouldn't that crease eventually reappear back to what it was?

[imbluestreak23]

I heard about people "soaking" vintage back in the early 00s.

One of the many reasons I've stayed away from vintage. Shame the post covid bois are now doing it to shiny poopini

[DragonWagon]

Enjoy your cards and do with them what you wish. However, if you choose to alter, restore, or clean a card that is considered altered by PSA and/or CGC definition, then please provide me the cert # for the card so that I can add it to my Altered Card Database. This way future collectors will be able to make informed decisions before purchasing the card. Also, we don’t want future flippers to continue to crack and soak cards over and over again, if you have already done it.


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[Ken735i]

Has anyone actually confirmed that it's just water?

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[Scottish Punk]

Has anyone actually confirmed that it's just water?

Sent from my motorola one 5G UW using Tapatalk

I don't know about the water. One persion said that there is an odor of rubbing alcohol from it.

I am seeing more and more of the youtubers who send in cards using either Kurt's stuff or Meguirs (spelling?) wax to polish chrome cards. I am really concerned about the long-term stability of doing this to cards. I fear that given 5-10 years, the new polish will wear off and the card will be crap. Clearly PSA and SGC cannot tell. The channels have cards coming back from PSA as 9's and 10's. This feels like it is become widely accepted especially with the flipper crowd.

[inaka]

Has anyone actually confirmed that it's just water?

Likely a ratio of distilled water and rubbing alcohol.

[daveyc1]

You know what else is alteration? When the factory worker at Topps presses down on print equipment and leaves lines and scratches on the card. But you don't seem to have an issue with that. "That's just how it came." lol ok.


what an obtuse comment. you must be new at this card thing. that is not alteration, it is factory damage.

holy cow.

[daveyc1]

I remember buying all kinds of Topps products back in 73 - 80’s. I didn’t purchase the product with the intent of collecting or chewing all the gum. Topps realized decades after starting to place gum in packs in 52 that the idea was blatantly stupid. Topps ruined the quality of their product by this brainless move.

Do I feel like I had large amounts of cards that were altered by gum stains, yes. Do I alter cards for the benefit of having a better grade, no. The hobby is a lot like life, the accountability by altering cards in a negative way is forgiven for the top shareholders that make and agree to these horrible decisions, placing gum against cardboard, brilliant !

removing gum was not a change to improve the product, it was a simple cost cutting move. Topps realized no one chewed the rock hard gross product and decided to delete it. happened after the 91 set. simple.

[daveyc1]

I don't know about the water. One persion said that there is an odor of rubbing alcohol from it.

I am seeing more and more of the youtubers who send in cards using either Kurt's stuff or Meguirs (spelling?) wax to polish chrome cards. I am really concerned about the long-term stability of doing this to cards. I fear that given 5-10 years, the new polish will wear off and the card will be crap. Clearly PSA and SGC cannot tell. The channels have cards coming back from PSA as 9's and 10's. This feels like it is become widely accepted especially with the flipper crowd.

this is part of the issue (another being the dishonesty of the whole thing)

we dont know what effect these "products" will have on cards in 10-20-40 years. no clue.

it is plain and simply a dishonest way to make money.

[jchcollins]

Topps realized decades after starting to place gum in packs in 52 that the idea was blatantly stupid. Topps ruined the quality of their product by this brainless move.


Sorry, but this is projecting quite a lot back upon what Topps "Chewing Gum" considered their primary product 50+ years ago. They were a GUM company, not a sports collectibles company. The notion quite simply didn't exist. The cards themselves were considered throwaway ephemera. For decades. The masses (if maybe not hardcore collectors as time went on...) in 1952, or likely even in 1972 did not consider that these things were all going to be worth a small fortune and worth more depending on their physical condition. It just didn't work that way. Things only started to go the other way then the hobby went retail in the early 1980's.

[jchcollins]

Part of the whole problem with the dilemma surrounding outfits like Kurt's is the subjectivity and semantics we have backed ourselves into this hobby since it went mainstream, well over 40 years ago now.

What is the difference between "alteration" and "honest wear." It was never spelled out anywhere in great detail (it is now, it wasn't when grading became a thing...) but it of course boils down to intent. If little Jimmy creased his Mickey Mantle card one summer afternoon in 1960 by putting it in his pocket, well that is honest wear. But if Gary Moser or someone else trimmed 1/48 of an inch off of the border of an identical Mickey Mantle card 45 years later - well, that's alteration and we can't have that.

Even if it seems rather obvious, how is what happened to the pieces of cardboard in either of these scenarios 100% provable? The answer of course is that it isn't. Were you there to see what Jimmy or Gary did to these cards? Do the cards have some type of hidden blockchain encryption on them to where we can unlock what happened to each one, each and every day in it's life since it's production? Of course not. So once a card moves on, changes hands, has years pass since whatever offending incident has happened to it - we are only left to speculate as whether this was "okay", or in the case of illicit alteration - was not.

How silly does this get at some point? Regardless of which side you come down on, either thinking Kurt is a hero or a villian or somewhere in between - the current state of the hobby would dictate that unless a major TPG (PSA, SGC, BGS, CGC...) can TELL that something uncouth was done to your card - then it doesn't freaking matter. You can disagree with this notion all you like, hold the supposed card doctors GUILTY in abstentia - but the point is we can't really do anything about it, can we?

A similar debate has occurred over on Net 54 in various flavors and in various threads for a while now. There are a lot of people it seems who just want to condemn the act all day long, but oh if i can't tell and my card is buttoned up all nice in it's PSA 8 slab, well then it's not altered. I have no idea what happened to it five years before I bought it, and I of course don't want to know.

To me the gap in understanding here has a lot to do with how much weight collectors - whether intentionally or unconsciously - put on professional grading. It's not the end-all, be-all pronouncement of your card's financial worth and intrinsic value. People have to realize that they are just paying for an opinion and a holder. Which may well be different from month to month or even week to week. Who is to say that a PSA junior employee who is having a bad day knows more about grading than me, who has been doing this for 38 years now?

Just some food for thought. I have no doubt that as always - the debate will rage on.

[auburn35]

I haven't seen an explanation from psa, but tiffanycards noticed several certs (the entire submission?) linked to kcc were deactivated by psa. Will be interesting to follow.

https://x.com/tiffanycards/status/1780963007939457402

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLdAadlXwAAMLHF?format=jpg&name=small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLDiPn-XcAEdxqj?format=jpg&name=small

[YouFold2Me]

I haven't seen an explanation from psa, but tiffanycards noticed several certs (the entire submission?) linked to kcc were deactivated by psa. Will be interesting to follow.

https://x.com/tiffanycards/status/1780963007939457402

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLdAadlXwAAMLHF?format=jpg&name=small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLDiPn-XcAEdxqj?format=jpg&name=small

good job PSA

[Cards and 401K]

Yes good job PSA now torpedo the under performers ASAP.


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[SandStoneSports]

The good news is a percentage of the people using this stuff won't be able to resist the urge to post videos of themselves cleaning their cards on youtube. Will make it more likely for them to be flagged for altering cards.

[The_Reverend]

The good news is a percentage of the people using this stuff won't be able to resist the urge to post videos of themselves cleaning their cards on youtube. Will make it more likely for them to be flagged for altering cards.

If PSA desires to deal with his, all they really have to do is assign employees to watch YT. Most flaunt it and expose themselves.

[Scottish Punk]

Did PSA catch this based on the card or based on an instagram post? I would love for any of the grading companies to catch Kurt's work and deem them altered from the get go. Still good news though.

[discodanman45]

Kurt was on Sports Card Live with Jeremy Lee and he said that "they" are buying 1 to 1.5 vintage cards to restore them a few grades. This is a bigger community than we can imagine. Turning a 1.5 to a 3/4 is what they want to do. Lower risk to further damage a lower grade card and a few grades increase is big money. Unfortunately this is acceptable with Kurt's cult and now you have to assume every newly graded card was been massaged with Kurt's card juice.

[The_Reverend]

Kurt was on Sports Card Live with Jeremy Lee and he said that "they" are buying 1 to 1.5 vintage cards to restore them a few grades. This is a bigger community than we can imagine. Turning a 1.5 to a 3/4 is what they want to do. Lower risk to further damage a lower grade card and a few grades increase is big money. Unfortunately this is acceptable with Kurt's cult and now you have to assume every newly graded card was been massaged with Kurt's card juice.

This is no different than trimming or building back cards. If you have to hide what you are doing, comic books are pressed and cleaned, as is fine art, but the grade says that is the case. Is it about only money!

[Bosoxfan5990]

The number of people angry at TiffanyCards in those Twitter replies is mind blowing.

[gunboat82]

The number of people angry at TiffanyCards in those Twitter replies is mind blowing.

The worst elements of humanity crawl out of the woodwork when you threaten their sketchy livelihoods.

[KPOD]

The worst elements of humanity crawl out of the woodwork when you threaten their sketchy livelihoods.

I need to save this quote and post it up

[larry25]

The worst elements of humanity crawl out of the woodwork when you threaten their sketchy livelihoods.

LOL. Clearly you don't watch the news very often, if ever.

[discodanman45]

Unfortunately, we have reached the point of no return. This is our new hobby and what can be done to stop it? PSA will only deactivate cert #'s and ban accounts, but there is still no personal liability to the people doing this. It would take PSA to do individual lawsuits against people "restoring" cards or for the government to get involved. We all know, neither will happen. Even with these certs being deactivated, they will send to SGC/BVG/CGC or even sell them back raw on eBay for huge profit anyways. Just a minor inconvenience for them.

I hate this, but there is nothing we can do to stop this nonsense. People are making big money doing this and the worse that happens is a little hand slap by PSA. This is no longer a hobby for 90% of people that are in cards. It is a gambling industry filled with people trying to make an easy buck. I commend the people trying to stop this movement of card altering, but the battle has been lost.

[rohara99]

Isn't it pretty easy to tell what vintage cards have been soaked?

I mean some of those vintage cards are so beat up AND so white/bleached out its kinda obvious, no?

[discodanman45]

Isn't it pretty easy to tell what vintage cards have been soaked?

I mean some of those vintage cards are so beat up AND so white/bleached out its kinda obvious, no?

If you bleach a card, it is more obvious. However, there is probably no reliable way to know if a card was soaked if it is done by someone who does it regularly. Heck, these grading companies can't tell if cards are trimmed. I have had cards that come back as evidence of trimming, then I send to another company and they slab it. We put way too much trust into these companies opinion. Because, that is all it is. An opinion.

[larry25]

Unfortunately, we have reached the point of no return. This is our new hobby and what can be done to stop it? PSA will only deactivate cert #'s and ban accounts, but there is still no personal liability to the people doing this. It would take PSA to do individual lawsuits against people "restoring" cards or for the government to get involved. We all know, neither will happen. Even with these certs being deactivated, they will send to SGC/BVG/CGC or even sell them back raw on eBay for huge profit anyways. Just a minor inconvenience for them.

I hate this, but there is nothing we can do to stop this nonsense. People are making big money doing this and the worse that happens is a little hand slap by PSA. This is no longer a hobby for 90% of people that are in cards. It is a gambling industry filled with people trying to make an easy buck. I commend the people trying to stop this movement of card altering, but the battle has been lost.

It is kind of funny that he's right out there with surgical gloves and a sterile operating room-like set up, playing card doctor right there in the open for everyone to see and critique and copy. I mean, where is the outrage? And that is of course a rhetorical question to echo your sentiment.

[hxcmilkshake]

Isn't it pretty easy to tell what vintage cards have been soaked?



I mean some of those vintage cards are so beat up AND so white/bleached out its kinda obvious, no?Yeah some are obvious but some you can't tell unless you have the "before" image lined up next to it.

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[hammerva]

What I don't understand is why are these dummies putting this stuff on social media. I mean this is like a card counter sitting at a blackjack table and yelling +1, +2, +1, +2, +3 as he is sitting at the table. You know you are doing something not illegal but shady and just tell everyone

[Scottish Punk]

What I don't understand is why are these dummies putting this stuff on social media. I mean this is like a card counter sitting at a blackjack table and yelling +1, +2, +1, +2, +3 as he is sitting at the table. You know you are doing something not illegal but shady and just tell everyone

In Kurt's case, I think he truly believes that he is doing the card community a service. It should be celebrated and not hidden.

[The_Reverend]

People will always look for an angle. The wild part are all the people defending this practice. Wiping fingerprints off a card is significantly different from soaking a card. I believe there are some who would defend any practice if it put money in their pocket. Some just can’t to be hobby celebrities and will not speak out against it.

[inaka]

When you're not a fan of both PSA and Kurt's card care....

https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExcWgzMndjaHR3M2RrY3g5MWZrcnBxZW16ODVvYXEzaDAwbzAzNmx4dyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/v0eHX3n28wvoQ/giphy.gif

[auburn35]

The number of people angry at TiffanyCards in those Twitter replies is mind blowing.

Agree, it's silly seeing the people coming at tiffanycards.
I'd still really like to see psa publicly respond to this situation, explain the deactivation.

Tiffanycards altered database is full of similarly documented cards that grading companies have no issues ignoring and passing off as legit. Their one post got to deactivate cards they didn't even discuss.:rolleyes:

In a hobby lacking accountability, Is it possible that Kurt is responsible for these cards being deactivated? I don't think tiffanycards recently did a recent interview suggesting kurts work was undetectable and in compliance with grading standards.

[DragonWagon]

It’s almost like all these angry people think I sold them a product I made in my garage with unknown chemicals, told them it was safe and acceptable by grading companies. Sorry, but the other guy did that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[superdan49]

If you want to soak or rub Kurt's Card Cum all over your cards, have at it.

When you don't disclose it to an unsuspecting buyer, or submit it for grading in violation of PSA's terms of service, that's fraud.

Something tells me the lawyers will have the last word on Kurt.

Nice work starting this ball rolling, DragonWagon.

[jchcollins]

Something tells me the lawyers will have the last word on Kurt.


You mean like they did with Gary Moser, Brent, PSA and PWCC? Kurt's methods are way harder to detect than actual trimming - and yet nobody in the long run seems to have given the first damn about Slabgate '20 or whenever that was.

In the end, stuff triumphs over all. The investors with cards worth more than my house rest easy at night knowing that they have a valuable item in a numbered slab. That's all that matters to them. In the end I find it difficult to see how Kurt's methods could possibly be treated more harshly than the wind we heard blowing over the PWCC mess.

[imbluestreak23]

Love seeing the Kurt’s duck butter fanbois up in arms over this.

These dumb dipshits literally have the wit to comment publically as to their own use and advocacy for such products. Bunch of absolute dipsh**s

Waxing sacks and braggin about it! Weird

[auburn35]

Some additional details, with comments from PSA.

The battle of PSA vs. Kurt's Card Care has reached a fever pitch since PSA deactivated cards due to evidence of alteration.
https://twitter.com/cllctMedia/status/1781458082343637403
https://www.cllct.com/sports-collectibles/memorabilia/card-cleaner-battles-psa-over-grading-rejections

PSA submission terms and conditions dictate that cards cannot be altered.

"We are fine with blowing on it or using a dab or water or using microfiber to clean it," said Ryan Hoge, president of Collectors, parent company of PSA. "But when you are doing much more, we are not on board."

PSA guarantees that cards that it grades will always uphold that grade, and if it doesn't they are on the hook. Hoge says he can't guarantee a card that was improved by using solvents.

"We are the ones with the financial obligations," Hoge said. "We are not comfortable grading these cards when we have to be standing behind them for years down the road."

Colone does not disclose what ingredients are in his spray, although he maintains they are all natural and won't hurt the cardboard. His website does that damage to the card using his product is not his responsibility.

Colone attributes the battle with PSA to cancel culture.

Hoge said PSA is charged with staying ahead of trends given the financial liability they have if something that restores a card changes its condition in future years.

Said Hoge: "If people want to crack a card out and resubmit, they can, but we want real legitimate items coming back, not items that were manipulated."

[YayNJ]

so the Kurts guy is basically blaming his house of cards coming down on 'woke' :D

what a dumb society we live in these days.

[larry25]

so the Kurts guy is basically blaming his house of cards coming down on 'woke' :D

what a dumb society we live in these days.

But isn't wokeness responsible for all our ills!?

[hxcmilkshake]

Yeah we're not woke, youre just stupid if you think you're some kind of innovator.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[CardPadre]

PSA submission terms and conditions dictate that cards cannot be altered.


They do say that, but that’s some lip service BS as they also are happy to profit on slabbing altered cards that apparently should not even be submitted based on their “terms”.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240420/fb295b6a1abbf87ed1f2e0f2f78857ed.jpg

[calmar]

But isn't wokeness responsible for all our ills!? You said it brother. Without "wokeness" and its equivalents over the last 200 years this country could still enjoy forced child labor, slavery, rape rarely prosecuted, drunk driving rarely prosecuted, domestic violence rarely prosecuted, gayness being illegal and a mental illness, polluted air and water taking 10 years off life expectancy, voting only for wealthy white landowners with testicles, veterans and old people told to go suck it and die with little assistance, no weekends off, I mean that crap's ruined everything.

[majestik101]

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNnRianoyOXd3YnI0aWVqOXN0aWx1bWN1Y3lhMGExdmtlcnlkMnVlZCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/PNjRQH2xSrBNC/giphy.gif

subscribed

[discodanman45]

I am fine with Kurt's Card Care with a few stipulations.

1. PSA will have a check box on their submission site stating if the submitter knowingly soaked, trimmed, or used a product like Kurt's Card Care on their cards. Legal jargon with a signature is required.
2. If they said yes, PSA will use an alternative label and still grade the card. However, it will be under an altered label.
3. If the person says no and there is proof of this, like Kurt showing the Robinson, then PSA has legal means to go after the submitter.
4. PSA needs to go after these types of submitters legally a few times to show they are not screwing around.

[Bosoxfan5990]

You said it brother. Without "wokeness" and its equivalents over the last 200 years this country could still enjoy forced child labor, slavery, rape rarely prosecuted, drunk driving rarely prosecuted, domestic violence rarely prosecuted, gayness being illegal and a mental illness, polluted air and water taking 10 years off life expectancy, voting only for wealthy white landowners with testicles, veterans and old people told to go suck it and die with little assistance, no weekends off, I mean that crap's ruined everything.

:popcorn:

[larry25]

You said it brother. Without "wokeness" and its equivalents over the last 200 years this country could still enjoy forced child labor, slavery, rape rarely prosecuted, drunk driving rarely prosecuted, domestic violence rarely prosecuted, gayness being illegal and a mental illness, polluted air and water taking 10 years off life expectancy, voting only for wealthy white landowners with testicles, veterans and old people told to go suck it and die with little assistance, no weekends off, I mean that crap's ruined everything.

LOLOLOLOLOL. There is a gigormous difference between these and countless other progressive achievements of American democracy over the past 200 years and so-called "woke" 19 year olds running around American college campuses yelling "we are Hamas!" I'm sorry, but your examples of wokeness are not remotely what our culture now describes as woke.

EDIT: That is to say, there are no equivalents to what we have come to call "wokeness," so please don't conflate it with basic American progress. Wokeness is extreme left/liberal ideology, that, very much like extreme right/conservative ideology, has gone far too far. Also, my original comment was sarcasm. Also also, though obviously related, there is a difference between cancel culture (the canceling of Kurt's Card Care) and wokeness.

[hxcmilkshake]

LOLOLOLOLOL. There is a gigormous difference between these and countless other progressive achievements of American democracy over the past 200 years and so-called "woke" 19 year olds running around American college campuses yelling "we are Hamas!" I'm sorry, but your examples of wokeness are not remotely what our culture now describes as woke.

EDIT: That is to say, there are no equivalents to what we have come to call "wokeness," so please don't conflate it with basic American progress. Wokeness is extreme left/liberal ideology, that, very much like extreme right/conservative ideology, has gone far too far. Also, my original comment was sarcasm. Also also, though obviously related, there is a difference between cancel culture (the canceling of Kurt's Card Care) and wokeness.Got it. We have successfully logged your Trump vote. The world is saved again. Can we go back to talking about altering cards?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[jplarson]

Secret Kurt employees trying to sink a thread to cover up bad press. Open your eyes sheeple and clean the Card Care out of your ears!

[larry25]

OMG, seriously? If you think I'm a Trumper because of this, I'm afraid. For you, for me, for all of us.

Moreover, you're making moronic comments like this:

"Yeah we're not woke, youre just stupid if you think you're some kind of innovator."

And you want to go back to talking about altering cards? Bring it on then, buddy.

[larry25]

NEWSFLASH: To return to the card conversation, if the card measures, and PROFESSIONALS can't tell that something has been done to it, NO ONE CARES. (Save maybe like 5 or 6 dudes on Blowout forums and maybe one or two original PSA graders.)

[discodanman45]

NEWSFLASH: To return to the card conversation, if the card measures, and PROFESSIONALS can't tell that something has been done to it, NO ONE CARES. (Save maybe like 5 or 6 dudes on Blowout forums and maybe one or two original PSA graders.)

Who are the "professionals?" Minimum wage workers at PSA?

Way more than 5/6 people here care. The majority vintage collecting community doesn't like what Kurt and his card doctor friends are doing. This is pure greed and not about card "restoration." It is about increasing a grade to make more money without listening to the concerns of people that collect these cards.

[hxcmilkshake]

NEWSFLASH: To return to the card conversation, if the card measures, and PROFESSIONALS can't tell that something has been done to it, NO ONE CARES. (Save maybe like 5 or 6 dudes on Blowout forums and maybe one or two original PSA graders.)Well, the more Kurt brags about what he's doing , and calling out PSA, the more all of his work becomes decertified and worthless. Congrats I guess?

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[larry25]

Well, the more Kurt brags about what he's doing , and calling out PSA, the more all of his work becomes decertified and worthless. Congrats I guess?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Nah, he'll just go underground eventually, like the 100s if not 1,000s of other card doctors who still do their thing and account for most of the submissions to PSA and SGC, not to mention the legions of copycats spawned by threads like this and all the detective work here on Blowout. Reminds me of that story about the Japanese fighters found on remote islands in the Pacific YEARS after WWII had ended, who were convinced the war was still being fought.

[hxcmilkshake]

Nah, he'll just go underground eventually, like the 100s if not 1,000s of other card doctors who still do their thing and account for most of the submissions to PSA and SGC, not to mention the legions of copycats spawned by threads like this and all the detective work here on Blowout. Reminds me of that story about the Japanese fighters found on remote islands in the Pacific YEARS after WWII had ended, who were convinced the war was still being fought.Will he though? I don't recall the dozens of doctors outed ever being on you tube...

He's John Gotti and the rest of the mafia is telling him to STFU.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[larry25]

Who are the "professionals?" Minimum wage workers at PSA?

Way more than 5/6 people here care. The majority vintage collecting community doesn't like what Kurt and his card doctor friends are doing. This is pure greed and not about card "restoration." It is about increasing a grade to make more money without listening to the concerns of people that collect these cards.

Very high and mighty and dare I say "woke" thinking, this persistent and senseless Blowout distinction between true collectors and investors. Only here on Blowout can we argue about the motivations of people who spend big chunks of their lives and their bank accounts to horde little square pictures of men... and then judge them about it. Thou. Shall. Not! But chive on, bois.

[imbluestreak23]

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNnRianoyOXd3YnI0aWVqOXN0aWx1bWN1Y3lhMGExdmtlcnlkMnVlZCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/PNjRQH2xSrBNC/giphy.gif

subscribed

https://i.imgur.com/CjvJERa.gif

[discodanman45]

Very high and mighty and dare I say "woke" thinking, this persistent and senseless Blowout distinction between true collectors and investors. Only here on Blowout can we argue about the motivations of people who spend big chunks of their lives and their bank accounts to horde little square pictures of men... and then judge them about it. Thou. Shall. Not! But chive on, bois.

Well as a collector I just want my cards to not be "restored" with Kurt's Card Juice and his cult followers. Many people think the same way. Are we allowed to have opinions? I guess you are just smarter than everyone else on here and we should bow to your insight and correctness. :)!

The reason a lot of us are fighting back is because we don't want this to become acceptable in our hobby. Plain and simple. Yes, card doctors will always exist. However, if it is accepted, it will just continue to become worse and worse.

The majority of cards I collect are not high dollar and most card doctors wouldn't waste their time. However, if this becomes normal, these cards that people can make a few dollars on will be altered.

Thank you for letting me know I am "woke." Guess I would rather identify with that than be on your team of correctness. :flex:

[larry25]

Never claimed I was smarter than thou, maybe just less judgey and not as woke. So, by your reasoning, all this fighting back and negativity and shade is to protect the lower-end stuff you collect? Okay, like I said, chive on, but the point of my other argument... you are conveniently disregarding the reality, which is that the war has already been lost. Doctors have been doing their thing for DECADES, and the term for them used to be DEALERS because it was so widespread and accepted, let alone the legions of them active now. Such a significant portion of the BEST stuff out there has already been worked over, it hardly seems fair or just or even reasonable that new entrants to the hobby, new investors, new collectors--whatever you want to call them--should abide by standards that immediately put them at a disadvantage. They should be entitled to every advantage they can dream or conceive. Ironically, it's kind of like PEDs in baseball. EVERYONE knew it was going on, and very few who played or managed the game really cared. Then some righteous people get involved and make it a political thing and ruin the game for a few years. And guess what? It's STILL going on. And still no one cares enough to put measures into place to really stop it.

[discodanman45]

Never claimed I was smarter than thou, maybe just less judgey and not as woke. So, by your reasoning, all this fighting back and negativity and shade is to protect the lower-end stuff you collect? Okay, like I said, chive on, but the point of my other argument... you are conveniently disregarding the reality, which is that the war has already been lost. Doctors have been doing their thing for DECADES, and the term for them used to be DEALERS because it was so widespread and accepted, let alone the legions of them active now. Such a significant portion of the BEST stuff out there has already been worked over, it hardly seems fair or just or even reasonable that new entrants to the hobby, new investors, new collectors--whatever you want to call them--should abide by standards that immediately put them at a disadvantage. They should be entitled to every advantage they can dream or conceive. Ironically, it's kind of like PEDs in baseball. EVERYONE knew it was going on, and very few who played or managed the game really cared. Then some righteous people get involved and make it a political thing and ruin the game for a few years. And guess what? It's STILL going on. And still no one cares enough to put measures into place to really stop it.

You are less judgmental? Wow! I just peed my pants. Thanks for the humor!

[discodanman45]

Rattle did a great job reviewing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGxFA8qcuE

Larry would say the "R" on Rattle's hat stands for "Righteous." So if you are not woke, maybe pass on watching the video.

[justrun7]

Kurt is supposed to be at Fishtown Card Show next week. I wonder what the response to him there will be.

Also, I just looked through some of his instagram and seeing some big auction houses, their consignment directors, and even Nat Turner following him was disappointing.

[SandStoneSports]

Kurt is supposed to be at Fishtown Card Show next week. I wonder what the response to him there will be.

Also, I just looked through some of his instagram and seeing some big auction houses, their consignment directors, and even Nat Turner following him was disappointing.


If he was smart he would block them. Fairly obvious PSA is keeping tabs on his videos.

[StateEx]

LOLOLOLOLOL. There is a gigormous difference between these and countless other progressive achievements of American democracy over the past 200 years and so-called "woke" 19 year olds running around American college campuses yelling "we are Hamas!" I'm sorry, but your examples of wokeness are not remotely what our culture now describes as woke.

EDIT: That is to say, there are no equivalents to what we have come to call "wokeness," so please don't conflate it with basic American progress. Wokeness is extreme left/liberal ideology, that, very much like extreme right/conservative ideology, has gone far too far. Also, my original comment was sarcasm. Also also, though obviously related, there is a difference between cancel culture (the canceling of Kurt's Card Care) and wokeness.

If you haven't I suggest reading the following for some perspective. There's nothing new under the sun.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1714401799925592473.html#google_vignette

[StateEx]

Another great Paul Fairie thread: things blamed for World War.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1696282063446622415.html

[larry25]

Rattle did a great job reviewing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGxFA8qcuE

Larry would say the "R" on Rattle's hat stands for "Righteous." So if you are not woke, maybe pass on watching the video.

I've watched plenty of his videos, thanks. I would not call him righteous at all. You say I'm being judgmental? What judgements do I make? I am merely pointing out facts and realities and truths, not making judgements on them? Maybe I just have my head up my arse too far, but that's my honest take.

[Crosby 87]

If he was smart he would block them. Fairly obvious PSA is keeping tabs on his videos.

Blocking them does nothing. They are following the videos im sure under multiple accounts that are not the main account if they are indeed following

[larry25]

Another great Paul Fairie thread: things blamed for World War.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1696282063446622415.html

Exactly how are these threads giving perspective on my point that confusing or conflating cultural wokeness with decades if not centuries of legitimate progressivism (won through civil disobedience and protest and even death and war) is in fact a danger to progressivism? Help me follow, please. EDIT: Oh, or are you trying to help me understand the people with whom I'm having these anonymous chats/arguments?

[letsgocapitals]

I hate woke and cancel culture as much as the next man, of which the percentage is declining.

But what in the Sam hell does card cleaning/manipulating have to do with woke culture? :cry:

[larry25]

I hate woke and cancel culture as much as the next man, of which the percentage is declining.

But what in the Sam hell does card cleaning/manipulating have to do with woke culture? :cry:

Good question! You have to read back... I made a sarcastic comment in response to some ignoramus posting some hate, and this thread quickly devolved from there. But apart from that, Kurt's being canceled clearly has something to do with cancel culture, merited or not, which itself seems to have stemmed from or perhaps even instigated or inspired woke culture. Are they not related?

[letsgocapitals]

Good question! You have to read back... I made a sarcastic comment in response to some ignoramus posting some hate, and this thread quickly devolved from there. But apart from that, Kurt's being canceled clearly has something to do with cancel culture, merited or not, which itself seems to have stemmed from or perhaps even instigated or inspired woke culture. Are they not related?

How so again?

[grizjunkie23]

Everything I don't like is woke.

[no10pin]

Good question! You have to read back... I made a sarcastic comment in response to some ignoramus posting some hate, and this thread quickly devolved from there. But apart from that, Kurt's being canceled clearly has something to do with cancel culture, merited or not, which itself seems to have stemmed from or perhaps even instigated or inspired woke culture. Are they not related?

What? So many buzz words that everyone has a different definition for.

Saying he was 'canceled' is just a way to soften the blow for some of the audience. He was 'caught' doing something against the rules and punished for it. I think we all used to think that was a good thing.

[jplarson]

Everything I don't like is woke.

^this guy is awake.

[larry25]

How so again?

I don't know... A small group of righteous people think that a person or company marketing a solution to make cards nicer is, as some have said in previous threads, akin to "molesting" ... and then most of these people want to see this person bankrupted or even imprisoned or something otherwise cruel... that sounds like cancel culture to me... Because they don't agree with him or with what he's doing, cancel him.

Guess what? His products are not illegal. Waxing and buffing cards is not illegal.

The real interesting question here is: what about that Wemby 1/1? Or, more importantly, what about the Wagner PSA 8? You can't call out a 1953 Topps Jackie in a PSA 2 and not make these other calls. That just makes the entire PSA picture completely absurd and hypocritical... which most of us already knew. We just like their holders. We're sick individuals.

[thenightman]

I don't know... A small group of righteous people think that a person or company marketing a solution to make cards nicer is, as some have said in previous threads, akin to "molesting" ... and then most of these people want to see this person bankrupted or even imprisoned or something otherwise cruel... that sounds like cancel culture to me... Because they don't agree with him or with what he's doing, cancel him.

Guess what? His products are not illegal. Waxing and buffing cards is not illegal.

The real interesting question here is: what about that Wemby 1/1? Or, more importantly, what about the Wagner PSA 8? You can't call out a 1953 Topps Jackie in a PSA 2 and not make these other calls. That just makes the entire PSA picture completely absurd and hypocritical... which most of us already knew. We just like their holders. We're sick individuals.

No, but it's frowned upon. We don't live in a society where everything is on the table and nothing is off-limits. There are standards and juicing a card is below the accepted standard.

[larry25]

No, but it's frowned upon. We don't live in a society where everything is on the table and nothing is off-limits. There are standards and juicing a card is below the accepted standard.

Ohkay, but we do live in a society where private property is EVERYTHING, and you can do whatever you want with your own property. I'm obviously not talking about real estate here, but I guess the fact that there are limits/laws on what you can do to real estate is kind of interesting. You can't build certain things, you can't pollute, you can't conduct crimes. Got damn regulations!

[discodanman45]

Guess what? His products are not illegal. Waxing and buffing cards is not illegal.

His products may be illegal. Where is the ingredient list?

Kurt calls these "cleaning products" on his website.

Cleaning Product Labeling Act Of 2017
Congress enacted the Cleaning Product Labeling Act of 2017 to require the labeling of ingredients on cleaning products distributed and manufactured in the United States.

According to this law, “any cleaning product manufactured for sale, offered for sale, distributed in commerce, or imported into the United States must have a label on the product's container or packaging.”

The manufacturer must also include a complete list of ingredients on their website in the following order:

You must mention ingredients in descending order of weight predominance, except ingredients that make up less than 1% of the product, which you can list in any order at the end.

The ingredient list on the product's website shall:
a. Include each ingredient's *CAS Registry Number*.

b. Explain why each ingredient is in the cleaning product.

c. Be available in English, Spanish, and any other language determined by the Commission or Administration to ensure that product users in the United States are fully aware of all the ingredients and functions.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Ohkay, but we do live in a society where private property is EVERYTHING, and you can do whatever you want with your own property. I'm obviously not talking about real estate here, but I guess the fact that there are limits/laws on what you can do to real estate is kind of interesting. You can't build certain things, you can't pollute, you can't conduct crimes. Got damn regulations!

What happens when you try to sell said property? Do you disclose that it’s been “restored” or altered?

[larry25]

His products may be illegal. Where is the ingredient list?

Kurt calls these "cleaning products" on his website.

Cleaning Product Labeling Act Of 2017
Congress enacted the Cleaning Product Labeling Act of 2017 to require the labeling of ingredients on cleaning products distributed and manufactured in the United States.

According to this law, “any cleaning product manufactured for sale, offered for sale, distributed in commerce, or imported into the United States must have a label on the product's container or packaging.”

The manufacturer must also include a complete list of ingredients on their website in the following order:

You must mention ingredients in descending order of weight predominance, except ingredients that make up less than 1% of the product, which you can list in any order at the end.

The ingredient list on the product's website shall:
a. Include each ingredient's *CAS Registry Number*.

b. Explain why each ingredient is in the cleaning product.

c. Be available in English, Spanish, and any other language determined by the Commission or Administration to ensure that product users in the United States are fully aware of all the ingredients and functions.

Wow, nice find, truly!

EDIT: LOL, because true to most of the digging and detecting throughout this forum, you might just have significantly helped him develop version 2.0. Maybe a patent will even be forthcoming. LOLOLOL.

[larry25]

What happens when you try to sell said property? Do you disclose that it’s been “restored” or altered?

Maybe you do, maybe you don't.

"Card was previously inserted into the spokes of my bicycle tires to make a pseudo engine/fart sound."

Kidding aside, yeah, you probably should. But that hypothetical doesn't change the reality that people can do whatever they want with their stuff, while they own it, before the sell it.

[salsdali]

Kurt violated PSA's TOS so PSA has a right to decertify.

As said, Kurt also has a legal obligation to disclose any alterations or restorations to a card when selling a card even if it hasn't been graded, otherwise he would be violating the law AND TOS of any platform he used to sell the card, such as ebay or an auction house.

[JustRachel]

Lathering a card up with some weird cocktail really isn't much different than rolling back the odometer on a car.

Just sayin'.

[KhalDrogo]

Sounds like Larry’s livelihood has been threatened with the heat on Kurt.

[PLB9eight]

His products may be illegal. Where is the ingredient list?

Kurt calls these "cleaning products" on his website.

Cleaning Product Labeling Act Of 2017
Congress enacted the Cleaning Product Labeling Act of 2017 to require the labeling of ingredients on cleaning products distributed and manufactured in the United States.

According to this law, “any cleaning product manufactured for sale, offered for sale, distributed in commerce, or imported into the United States must have a label on the product's container or packaging.”

The manufacturer must also include a complete list of ingredients on their website in the following order:

You must mention ingredients in descending order of weight predominance, except ingredients that make up less than 1% of the product, which you can list in any order at the end.

The ingredient list on the product's website shall:
a. Include each ingredient's *CAS Registry Number*.

b. Explain why each ingredient is in the cleaning product.

c. Be available in English, Spanish, and any other language determined by the Commission or Administration to ensure that product users in the United States are fully aware of all the ingredients and functions.


I’m not supporting altering but it looks like that act was only introduced and not passed by either house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thenightman]

Ohkay, but we do live in a society where private property is EVERYTHING, and you can do whatever you want with your own property. I'm obviously not talking about real estate here, but I guess the fact that there are limits/laws on what you can do to real estate is kind of interesting. You can't build certain things, you can't pollute, you can't conduct crimes. Got damn regulations!

You can't do anything you want with your property, even if you don't live in a HOA. Which, an HOA, is pretty much an apt comparison to this situation. PSA is the HOA and Kurt violated the "HOA agreement".

[larry25]

Sounds like Larry’s livelihood has been threatened with the heat on Kurt.

Most definitely, Khal. I put Kurt's on everything, and I just wouldn't know what to use if Kurt's went away. I'm like that floating fat guy in the Dune movies. I bathe in that sh*t, and I soak all my favorite little plastic pictures of men in the tub around me, like rose petals, but cooler and more manly.

[auburn35]

They do say that, but that’s some lip service BS as they also are happy to profit on slabbing altered cards that apparently should not even be submitted based on their “terms”.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240420/fb295b6a1abbf87ed1f2e0f2f78857ed.jpg

Not denying that PSA has their own issues and the standards could use some additional clarity. I've always understood the submission terms to be knowingly submitting altered cards for grading (numerical grade) is against terms.

[auburn35]

Thought this response on the topic, was pretty good.
The video is in the link, if anyone wanted to watch.

Kurt's Card Care Response From Viewer
https://www.junkwaxhero.com/p/kurt-psa

1. In your Sunday video you asked why PSA deactivated Kurt's recent submission, if they were unable to detect it when they graded the cards. This is similar to if Barry Bonds, while passing drug tests, came out and admitted in public that he was doing PEDs. The league would have to suspend him, even if they did not have evidence in a test. The confession supersedes that. Kurt essentially is confessing/bragging that he is doing these alterations which are clearly banned by PSA (and SGC). He blocks the cert number because he knows what he is doing is wrong. Otherwise he would show the returned card cert, and try to sell you the card in his video. (Why doesn't he sell these cards himself to his large audience? Because he knows people do not actually want to own 'cleaned' cards.)

2. The poll from Card Purchaser showing how 'accepting' people are of card cleaning is misleading. The reality is this: people want to clean cards and send them to PSA, AND get a grade bump, and then sell them for a profit. That's it. There is likely not one single collector in the hobby--not one--who uses Kurt's Card Care on their own personal collection items, submits them to grading, then holds them as PC items. The people who say that they want to allow this are basically wanting to get away with using it themselves. They do NOT want to own cards that have been 'cleaned'. They want to clean their 1s and make them 3s, or clean their 4s and make them 7s, then sell for a profit. That's it. I would challenge Kurt or anyone who does cleaning to present to us one single collector who uses their product, then grades the cards, then holds them in their PC. I am not exaggerating when I say it is likely zero people total.

3. This brings up the other issue: why do these cards have to be in PSA/SGC holders? Think about the argument that Kurt and similar companies are making: they claim this is "restoring" the card. If that is the case, why do they need to be slabbed? The entire goal of slabbing the 'restored' card is to allow it to be sold for a profit, and laundered into the hobby.

Again, I would challenge Kurt and friends to find one collector who uses their product and keeps the items raw. Nobody does this! People clean cards, send to PSA as quick as they can, and sell as quick as they can. 'Collectors' do not want these! If a collector wanted to spend the money on a 1953 Jackie in a PSA 2.5, they do NOT want one that was a PSA 1 with tape on it 2 months ago. The card is 70 years old, and it is what it is: a 1 with tape on it, the tape itself was probably affixed for 70 years. The people upset that PSA might not allow this should ask themselves why they so desperately need this in a graded slab instead of a one-touch. Clearly the reason is: they want to flip the card for max profit.

4. I am also annoyed with the Kurt fans saying this is like restoring 'art'. Do people put 'art' in giant plastic cases with barcodes and QR codes on them? Again, if there is one collector who has cleaned his personal collection and is displaying them raw, I would be shocked. 'Cleaning' is purely a way to boost the grades of cards so they can be re-sold for more. It is functionally the same as trimming.

[larry25]

RE: The Jackie card with the tape... Isn't the addition of the tape to the card an act of altering? And then the removal of the tape therefore the removal of the alteration?

[towerymt]

RE: The Jackie card with the tape... Isn't the addition of the tape to the card an act of altering? And then the removal of the tape therefore the removal of the alteration?

Yes.

PSA wants add-on alterations only. :coffee:

[towerymt]

But don't add color. And don't fill in holes. But do add tape in 1953!

[inaka]

I am also annoyed with the Kurt fans saying this is like restoring 'art'. Do people put 'art' in giant plastic cases

https://i.imgur.com/gTD9QVw.jpeg

Ummm...yes? :D

[Triple B]

https://i.imgur.com/gTD9QVw.jpeg

Ummm...yes? :D

Never mind the entire building to house the encased piece of art.

[auburn35]

https://i.imgur.com/gTD9QVw.jpeg

Ummm...yes? :D

Overall, I thought the person had some great points but yes, that was an odd paragraph. Acceptance of restoration and passing altered items off as unaltered, has little to do with how an item is displayed.

[salsdali]

3. This brings up the other issue: why do these cards have to be in PSA/SGC holders? Think about the argument that Kurt and similar companies are making: they claim this is "restoring" the card. If that is the case, why do they need to be slabbed? The entire goal of slabbing the 'restored' card is to allow it to be sold for a profit, and laundered into the hobby.



4. I am also annoyed with the Kurt fans saying this is like restoring 'art'. Do people put 'art' in giant plastic cases with barcodes and QR codes on them?

https://i.imgur.com/gTD9QVw.jpeg

Ummm...yes? :D

The flaw in this argument is, Museum's don't restore property for profit. It's not their intent. Their intent is that the property will be available to be displayed to the public till the end of Mankind.

The Mona Lisa is never going to be sold for profit, no matter how much is offered, so the Museums are doing a public service by preserving the item.

Museums are also legally obligated to disclose if the item has been altered.

Kurts intent is to improve an item, not disclose that fact and to make a profit and this is where Fraud becomes a crime.

and the fact that half the damn IG doesn't know this is disturbing at best.

[inaka]

The Mona Lisa is never going to be sold for profit, no matter how much is offered

Clearly you haven't seen Glass Onion. :D

[salsdali]

Clearly you haven't seen Glass Onion. :D

a quick google search reveals Glass Onion as a Fictional movie so can we get back to the reality that many wealthy people donate to museums for the sole purpose of preserving art to be made accessible to the public with no intention of profit.

If the profit on a piece of cardboard will alter your morals then perhaps it is you who should look in the mirror.

[DragonWagon]

RE: The Jackie card with the tape... Isn't the addition of the tape to the card an act of altering? And then the removal of the tape therefore the removal of the alteration?


The tape is disclosed and reflected in the grade. Alterations are types of additions or subtractions that are meant to deceive collectors into believing the card is in better condition or passed off as original. Restoration would be documenting and disclosing the work done to the card and its improvements.

Let me guess, your next point will be on removing finger prints???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[salsdali]

can we at least get back to basics which apparently a lot of idiots are willing to forgo.

Oxford dictionary, which every "reasonable" person should be willing to accept as the definition except if they are some kind of scammer

al·ter
/ˈôltər/
verb
gerund or present participle: altering

change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way.
"Eliot was persuaded to alter the passage"
h
Similar:
change

make changes to
make different
make alterations to
adjust
make adjustments to
adapt
amend
improve
modify
convert
revise
recast
reform
reshape
refashion
redesign
restyle
revamp
rework
remake
remodel
remold
redo
reconstruct
reorganize
reorder
refine
reorient
reorientate
vary
transform
transfigure
transmute
evolve
customize
tailor
tweak
permute
become different
undergo a change
undergo a sea change
turn
metamorphose
h
Opposite:
preserve
stay the same

make structural changes to (a building).
"plans to alter the dining hall"
tailor (clothing) for a better fit or to conform to fashion.
"skirts with the hemlines altered a dozen different times"

IOW, you scammers don't get to create a new definition of alteration to suit your desires.

the old definition holds true, will always hold true and there is nothing new you can say that will change that.

[Gary]

People compromise their morals for money everyday,this isn't any different.some will and some wont.Just because some will doesn't make it right.Every time there is some sort of scandal the same things are said,PWCC still guys use them,PSA same thing.

Personally i wouldn't use kurts,i only use PSA for packs as there is no other choice,PWCC i used before the problems but not anymore.Cards are not part of my income stream.Easy for me to be morally upstanding when i have no skin in the game.

[daveyc1]

I don't know... A small group of righteous people think that a person or company marketing a solution to make cards nicer is, as some have said in previous threads, akin to "molesting" ... and then most of these people want to see this person bankrupted or even imprisoned or something otherwise cruel... that sounds like cancel culture to me... Because they don't agree with him or with what he's doing, cancel him.

Guess what? His products are not illegal. Waxing and buffing cards is not illegal.

The real interesting question here is: what about that Wemby 1/1? Or, more importantly, what about the Wagner PSA 8? You can't call out a 1953 Topps Jackie in a PSA 2 and not make these other calls. That just makes the entire PSA picture completely absurd and hypocritical... which most of us already knew. We just like their holders. We're sick individuals.


Maybe (though possibly) not illegal, but certainly immoral. He is very clearly altering for profit.

[daveyc1]

would KCC not be akin to rolling back an odometer?

[daveyc1]

His products may be illegal. Where is the ingredient list?

Kurt calls these "cleaning products" on his website.

Cleaning Product Labeling Act Of 2017
Congress enacted the Cleaning Product Labeling Act of 2017 to require the labeling of ingredients on cleaning products distributed and manufactured in the United States.

According to this law, “any cleaning product manufactured for sale, offered for sale, distributed in commerce, or imported into the United States must have a label on the product's container or packaging.”

The manufacturer must also include a complete list of ingredients on their website in the following order:

You must mention ingredients in descending order of weight predominance, except ingredients that make up less than 1% of the product, which you can list in any order at the end.

The ingredient list on the product's website shall:
a. Include each ingredient's *CAS Registry Number*.

b. Explain why each ingredient is in the cleaning product.

c. Be available in English, Spanish, and any other language determined by the Commission or Administration to ensure that product users in the United States are fully aware of all the ingredients and functions.

excellent point, and one I had not thought of before. He better get those labels on for the poison control centers. can you imagine if a kid got into this junk and got sick, or worse. that is a giant liability.

[towerymt]

would KCC not be akin to rolling back an odometer?

Nope.

[towerymt]

Maybe (though possibly) not illegal, but certainly immoral. He is very clearly altering for profit.

Any documented sales? (question for anyone, just replying to your statement...I'm not sure if there has been an outlet for these cards, post-conservation)

And I will add, it's obviously going to generate profit for his business if he demonstrates techniques, uses his products, and shows before/after grades from the major grading companies. He doesn't have to sell any cards to generate profit.

I making the assumption that the statement above in bold was meant to apply to card sales specifically. :)!

[JWBlue]

Does Kurt's stuff remove print lines and scratches?

I am wondering if a lot of 10s have been altered.

[larry25]

Maybe (though possibly) not illegal, but certainly immoral. He is very clearly altering for profit.

Yay, the morality police are back out! Meanwhile, most of us on here are working in a capitalistic economy which has been described by smarter men than most of us combined as immoral. But to each their own. Preach on, comrades! Or judge not. Whatever. Depends on which books you read, I guess.

[daveyc1]

Nope.

how so? both are done to falsely "improve" to increase value.

[daveyc1]

Yay, the morality police are back out! Meanwhile, most of us on here are working in a capitalistic economy which has been described by smarter men than most of us combined as immoral. But to each their own. Preach on, comrades! Or judge not. Whatever. Depends on which books you read, I guess.

that is why I said possibly illegal. is not altering a card fraudulent? Card doctors are submitting cards under false pretenses and breaking the terms of agreement with PSA. If they were not trying to pull one over on collectors, why not clearly label each altered card as such?

do you not think that is immoral? does morality not matter to you?

[towerymt]

how so? both are done to falsely "improve" to increase value.

Soaked card is grading higher. It has been improved. He has shown before & after grades from SGC, and I think PSA.

Odometer rollback is not typically paired with any improvement.

Kurt dropped the pan, resealed the oil pump, replaced the rod bearings, pulled the head, lapped the valves, fresh head gasket, set valve clearance, replaced some oil seals, and then rolled 50k miles off the odometer.

[daveyc1]

Soaked card is grading higher. It has been improved. He has shown before & after grades from SGC, and I think PSA.

Odometer rollback is not typically paired with any improvement.

Kurt dropped the pan, resealed the oil pump, replaced the rod bearings, pulled the head, lapped the valves, fresh head gasket, set valve clearance, replaced some oil seals, and then rolled 50k miles off the odometer.

odometer rollback is an improvement. what is worth more, the same 2019 F 150 with 50k miles or with 120k miles?

[towerymt]

odometer rollback is an improvement. what is worth more, the same 2019 F 150 with 50k miles or with 120k miles?
But he didn't re-holder the same card with a different grade.

Mileage is the grade.

Mileage is not the condition.

That's why I think it's different.

[daveyc1]

But he didn't re-holder the same card with a different grade.

Mileage is the grade.

Mileage is not the condition.

That's why I think it's different.


Mileage is the appearance of a better grade. same truck, same parts, it has just been fraudulently altered/adjusted to appear better.

same comparison as if a card has had a crease taken out and a vehicle having been in an accident and that is not reported to a prospective buyer.

would you rather have an original card graded 8 or one that has had a crease "removed" that is also an 8?

would you rather have a vehicle that has been in an accident and repaired or the same vehicle with no accident history?

[JustRachel]

would KCC not be akin to rolling back an odometer?

You're taking a jacked-up card and making it look like a non-jacked-up card without actually fixing it, soooo...yeah.

Before the naysayers rise up, let me clarify. Using some concoction to buff out a scratch definitely can remove a scratch on some cards, but it still does not fix the card. It may be a non-scratched card afterward but it will have less gloss and will still not be "original" or "restored" even though it may look better. The same is true for other alterations. The card is never renewed, just further altered to appear nicer.

[larry25]

that is why I said possibly illegal. is not altering a card fraudulent? Card doctors are submitting cards under false pretenses and breaking the terms of agreement with PSA. If they were not trying to pull one over on collectors, why not clearly label each altered card as such?

do you not think that is immoral? does morality not matter to you?

Just my two cents here, but I think selling pieces of paper for money (that people make by passing their lives in labor) is immoral. They're not really even a consumer luxury item. They were originally a byproduct of one, of the gum they used to help sell.

I think valuing those pieces of paper with the same measure used to value one's life in labor is immoral.

But mostly I think morality is a personal thing and that most traditions teach us not to impose our individual senses of morality onto others. Doing so is itself immoral according the the Bible and to other traditions.

I know I'm immoral in several ways--we all are--and I try to be better, and yes, this is something that is very important to me, but I think bringing morality into question in the realm of baseball cards lessens its importance in other, more important areas of our lives.

Again, just my $0.02.

[daveyc1]

Just my two cents here, but I think selling pieces of paper for money (that people make by passing their lives in labor) is immoral. They're not really even a consumer luxury item. They were originally a byproduct of one, of the gum they used to help sell.

I think valuing those pieces of paper with the same measure used to value one's life in labor is immoral.

But mostly I think morality is a personal thing and that most traditions teach us not to impose our individual senses of morality onto others. Doing so is itself immoral according the the Bible and to other traditions.

I know I'm immoral in several ways--we all are--and I try to be better, and yes, this is something that is very important to me, but I think bringing morality into question in the realm of baseball cards lessens its importance in other, more important areas of our lives.

Again, just my $0.02.

you are obfuscating here. the discussion of whether the buying/selling of cards is immoral and your thoughts on labor are not germane to this discussion. your segway into the philosophy of morality is also not germane.

Let me put it differently. We all should understand there is such a thing as objective truth. Is it objectively wrong to sell fraudulently altered cards without noting them as such?

[larry25]

you are obfuscating here. the discussion of whether the buying/selling of cards is immoral and your thoughts on labor are not germane to this discussion. your segway into the philosophy of morality is also not germane.

Let me put it differently. We all should understand there is such a thing as objective truth. Is it objectively wrong to sell fraudulently altered cards without noting them as such?

Germane, lol. This is an anonymous online forum about baseball cards! I don't disagree with you, but show me where? In what constitution or book or set of laws does it say this? We're talking about a game here, an entertainment, depicting another/other game(s). My point is... that these things have ANY value is absurd and immoral relative to things that have actual value, use value. They are just paper/plastic with pictures printed on them!!!

[inaka]

a quick google search reveals Glass Onion as a Fictional movie so can we get back to the reality that many wealthy people donate to museums for the sole purpose of preserving art to be made accessible to the public with no intention of profit.

I was clearly making a Glass Onion joke, but pssst, the Mona Lisa herself, incased in glass, has in fact been altered/restored.

The current condition is partly due to a variety of conservation treatments the painting has undergone. A detailed analysis in 1933 by Madame de Gironde revealed that earlier restorers had "acted with a great deal of restraint." Nevertheless, applications of varnish made to the painting had darkened even by the end of the 16th century, and an aggressive 1809 cleaning and revarnishing removed some of the uppermost portion of the paint layer, resulting in a washed-out appearance to the face of the figure.

Also, museums sell works of art all the time. Not all museums get donated art. Many museums spend millions to buy art, and complete against another museums in auctions. And many sell the art they have in their collection. There's even a unique term in the English language for it to make it sound less offensive or unethical. They call it: deaccessioning.

The Nelson-Atkins Museum Is Auctioning Off a Monet's Moulin de Limetz (1888) next month (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/claude-monets-moulin-de-limetz-painting-is-heading-to-auction-180984074/), hoping to get around $18-25 million. This was donated to them.

The Mona Lisa? Will likely never be sold, but not because it's immoral, but rather it's because it's too much of a monetary draw from The Louvre. Other "priceless" works of art are actually sold off. This deaccessioning was especially true and at a peak of controversy during the pandemic when museums were selling off works of art to cover operating costs.

I have no dog in this fight, but cards to me most definitely are art. And part of the reason I grade cards is to protect this art in a case that will preserve it. The blog post was mocking those who consider cards "art" because we have them in plastic with a bar code. Uhhh....yeah? Not sure why that means it's not art. Music is art (and collectable), even when you buy a rare limited edition vinyl record or CD sealed in plastic with a bar code.

And even if you're not flipping cards, don't many collectors think that by grading these cards, we're preserving them to possibly hand down to your kids/grandkids and preserve their legacy? I sure do. Same concept as a museum when you think about it, since I'll be dead when I hand these cards down, and whether they're worth thousands or worth a bucket of beanie babies, the value at that point is irrelevant.

Art, collectability, and monetary value all go hand-in-hand. They just do. Museums aren't immune to these discussion, and many works of art most definitely are altered/restored, and that in turn increases its value.

Again, I have no dog in this fight, I just like art, and cards are most definitely art.

[bsavidge83]

I was clearly making a Glass Onion joke, but pssst, the Mona Lisa herself, incased in glass, has in fact been altered/restored.

The current condition is partly due to a variety of conservation treatments the painting has undergone. A detailed analysis in 1933 by Madame de Gironde revealed that earlier restorers had "acted with a great deal of restraint." Nevertheless, applications of varnish made to the painting had darkened even by the end of the 16th century, and an aggressive 1809 cleaning and revarnishing removed some of the uppermost portion of the paint layer, resulting in a washed-out appearance to the face of the figure.

Also, museums sell works of art all the time. Not all museums get donated art. Many museums spend millions to buy art, and complete against another museums in auctions. And many sell the art they have in their collection. There's even a unique term in the English language for it to make it sound less offensive or unethical. They call it: deaccessioning.

The Nelson-Atkins Museum Is Auctioning Off a Monet's Moulin de Limetz (1888) next month (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/claude-monets-moulin-de-limetz-painting-is-heading-to-auction-180984074/), hoping to get around $18-25 million. This was donated to them.

The Mona Lisa? Will likely never be sold, but not because it's immoral, but rather it's because it's too much of a monetary draw from The Louvre. Other "priceless" works of art are actually sold off. This deaccessioning was especially true and at a peak of controversy during the pandemic when museums were selling off works of art to cover operating costs.

I have no dog in this fight, but cards to me most definitely are art. And part of the reason I grade cards is to protect this art in a case that will preserve it. The blog post was mocking those who consider cards "art" because we have them in plastic with a bar code. Uhhh....yeah? Not sure why that means it's not art. Music is art (and collectable), even when you buy a rare limited edition vinyl record or CD sealed in plastic with a bar code.

And even if you're not flipping cards, don't many collectors think that by grading these cards, we're preserving them to possibly hand down to your kids/grandkids and preserve their legacy? I sure do. Same concept as a museum when you think about it, since I'll be dead when I hand these cards down, and whether they're worth thousands or worth a bucket of beanie babies, the value at that point is irrelevant.

Art, collectability, and monetary value all go hand-in-hand. They just do. Museums aren't immune to these discussion, and many works of art most definitely are altered/restored, and that in turn increases its value.

Again, I have no dog in this fight, I just like art, and cards are most definitely art.

100% agree

On a side note .. do you happen to know the person's name who made the varnish used to restore the Mona Lisa? We should get a thread going so that everyone on blowout can have an additional punching bag.

[daveyc1]

Germane, lol. This is an anonymous online forum about baseball cards! I don't disagree with you, but show me where? In what constitution or book or set of laws does it say this? We're talking about a game here, an entertainment, depicting another/other game(s). My point is... that these things have ANY value is absurd and immoral relative to things that have actual value, use value. They are just paper/plastic with pictures printed on them!!!

your opinion that cardboard with pictures and signatures should have no value does in no way mean that those items have no value. that is just your opinion.

It is just as "absurd" to me that fine art has any value. especially "modern" art. but again, that is just MY opinion, and those items do have value. Often, high values.

your (or my) opinion on values is not GERMANE to the topic at hand. Sportscards have monetary value (whether you think they should or not) and when someone alters one to artificially increase its value it is both fraudulent and morally wrong.

[inaka]

And to make this discussion come full circle, here's a piece of art painted by artist Brittany Palmer of GERMANE Dye. ;)

(Yes, I know it's spelled JERMAINE.)

https://i.imgur.com/ARvlI8T.jpeg

[larry25]

Clearly colored in and therefore worthless and not even worth looking at!

[duron]

I know I'm immoral in several ways--we all are--and I try to be better, and yes, this is something that is very important to me, but I think bringing morality into question in the realm of baseball cards lessens its importance in other, more important areas of our lives.

Again, just my $0.02.

https://y.yarn.co/0a7d5114-5bb5-415d-a021-b911b27cd4bd_text.gif

[ArmyDC]

comic books are restored and pressed by the grading companies, is there a reason why one collectible is ok with this but another is not? I really don’t have an issue one way or another but can see if someone collects comic books and does this might not understand sports cards

[duron]

comic books are restored and pressed by the grading companies, is there a reason why one collectible is ok with this but another is not? I really don’t have an issue one way or another but can see if someone collects comic books and does this might not understand sports cards

Said comic collector wouldn’t understand why a card collector would be pissed if they found out a card they bought was altered without being disclosed?

[daveyc1]

comic books are restored and pressed by the grading companies, is there a reason why one collectible is ok with this but another is not? I really don’t have an issue one way or another but can see if someone collects comic books and does this might not understand sports cards

different hobbies have different standards. always been that way as far as I know.

[ArmyDC]

Said comic collector wouldn’t understand why a card collector would be pissed if they found out a card they bought was altered without being disclosed?

It’s done by the grading company? What are you talking about?

[bloodwings19]

comic books are restored and pressed by the grading companies

+1. If CGC didn't press my book, it would not have gotten a CGC 9.6. The book didn't have creases, but it had folds. The comic book (Batman- 1st Al Ghul) I sold for mid- 4 digits. My take is if the card is cleaned and the result is in the same condition, it shouldn't be flagged.

[discodanman45]

Comic books, sports cards, and coins all have different rules that are acceptable in their respective hobby. Cleaning coins is a big no-no for the majority of collectors.

[larry25]

Comic books, sports cards, and coins all have different rules that are acceptable in their respective hobby. Cleaning coins is a big no-no for the majority of collectors.

All the coin collectors I know are either passed away or in their later 70s and 80s. Don't know too many (if any) younger ones, but I have always thought of coins and stamps as the most mature collectibles markets (in terms of participants). I wonder if that will change over time as younger generations take over or if perhaps it will also be older? And I wonder how stamp collectors handle alterations and pressing and trimming, etc?

[auburn35]

Comic books, sports cards, and coins all have different rules that are acceptable in their respective hobby. Cleaning coins is a big no-no for the majority of collectors.

Correct.

One common link between the comic and sports card grading industries (many other service industries) is the terms and conditions of use.
Not commonly utilized, but CGC currently has a couple active legal cases against submitters and directly references violations of their T&C's in both fraud cases.
This same option is available, should a TPG ever want to enforce their policies. :rolleyes:

Defendant has submitted comic books to CGC for grading, authentication, slabbing, and reholdering under his individual account with CGC and thus is bound by the CGC Services Terms and Conditions.

Customer represents and warrants that it has no knowledge and no reasonable basis for belief that any collectible submitted is not genuine or contains any non-disclosed alterations or restorations....

As direct and proximate result of material breaches of the CGC Services Terms and Conditions, CGC has suffered and continues to suffer damages in an amount to be determined at trial.

[duron]

It’s done by the grading company? What are you talking about?

Right back at you. Good talk.

[mc1]

comic books are restored and pressed by the grading companies, is there a reason why one collectible is ok with this but another is not? I really don’t have an issue one way or another but can see if someone collects comic books and does this might not understand sports cards

Arent those restorations or alterations disclosed?

[salsdali]

I just watched a Kurt video on IG and in the comments he thanked his tribe for being "Free Thinkers".

This, IMO, is the crux of the issue, the young kids today think they can make up the rules and should be rewarded for doing so but it's no different than someone coming up with a way to break the laws or the rules and justifying it as an invention of "free thinking", no different than trying to justify that box breaks aren't gambling, or even gaming.

That's not how the world works kids.

[BHotz]

As a sketch card collector who got into sketch cards BECAUSE I was so fascinated with the aspect of combing trading cards with art, can most assure all trading cards aren’t art. Non-sketch cards are collectibles at the highest level of assets and trading cards at the sub-collectible level.

Kurt’s card care walks a line. The issue with grading is that they are grading what you get out of a sealed pack (or other vessel- cigarette carton, grocery/advertising item, etc). This means that once it’s released or freed from the vessel it’s in a specific state. This state is most certainly not pristine/gem by default. Handling of any sorts adds a risk of decreasing the state. Kurt’s card care affects the state. Can Kurt’s card care “fix” the state? Maybe. Would think it more often decreases the state (again state being how it was opened/brought into the world). So there isn’t a black and white answer here. The answer is that if Kurt’s card care can fix the card to a higher quality release state then it will be graded higher. If Kurt’s card care decreases or changes the card from release state then it will either be graded lower OR authenticated differently.

Preservation and restoring (in the non-fixing aspect) are different ballparks. Everyone takes care and collects in their own way. Two centuries from now they will be even more of a factor.. Yes they can overlap with grading, but grading itself is its own philosophical and mechanical thing and should always be thought of as a seperate thjng.