HOF Argument

[frozenntimesports]

Lets start the 2012 hall of fame debate!

Dave Andreychuk, I say no, he was a compiler who won a Stanley Cup in his 23rd season. Was he ever a contender for a major award? Not that I can remember.

Pavel Bure, I say hell yes. There wasn't a more dangerous offensive player alive during the "dead puck" era.

Pat Burns, in as a coach.

Guy Carbonneau, no, but I had to bury my pro-Habs homerism on that.

Theo Fleury, no, even though he was a point per game player and a short guy in a big-guy dominated game, no one is putting Spud Webb in the basketball hall of fame, right?

Phil Housley, no that he was a compiler like Andreychuk.

Curtis Joseph, 400+ wins but I say no because I don't remember him ever being a top-five goaltender in the NHL.

John LeClair, no.

Eric Lindros, Yes, he was above a point per game player, won a Hart Trophy in his injury and stupidity shortened career. Plus I've got about 100 Lindros score rookies, any takers?

Kevin Lowe, no.

Markus Naslund, No, he was never really a serious contender for a Hart Trophy.

Adam Oates, yes, there wasn't a more dangerous passer in hockey in the late 80s and early 90s, Wayne Gretzky included.

Gary Roberts, no.

Jeremy Roenick, yes, but I think he is going in more as a representative of hockey and player than just a player. If he was just Joe 500 goal Sixpack, I'd say no, but there wasn't a better (and worse) ambassador for hockey in the 90s.

Joe Sakic, if he doesn't get in the Hall, it should be turned into a peep show.

Brendan Shanahan, see above, however if he keeps penalize Habs for marginal plays he's going on my naughty list. Comparing Pacorietty to that piece of filth Matt Cooke, give me a break.

Mats Sundin, closer to not in than in, but he did things in his prime that I didn't think were possible.


Go ahead, pick me apart. Feel free to look at the stats on TSN 2012 Hall of Fame Candidates (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=53192)

[37Jetson]

Seems like a complete list of my early 1990's Hockey Cards.

Did Eric Lindros do enough for a long enough period of time?

I am with you on Cujo.

[cardinalfan13]

Adam Oates, yes, there wasn't a more dangerous passer in hockey in the late 80s and early 90s, Wayne Gretzky included

amen

[BostonNut]

Wow...Kevin Lowe...six Cups!

[GoJays]

I'd put cujo, sundin, bure and Lowe in. What Lowe did both as a player and a general manager is pretty impressive IMHO. Salic should be a lock so I won't even bother writing about him. Burns has to go in over anyone. Period. I'd put him in over sakic. It should be a very tough decision for voters. Sakic and burns seem to be locks, but other than those two I don't see any guarantees.

[frozenntimesports]

Seems like a complete list of my early 1990's Hockey Cards.

Did Eric Lindros do enough for a long enough period of time?

I am with you on Cujo.


I think if Cam Neely gets in, Bure and Lindros should. Was there anything more aggravating than Bure hanging around by the blue line and you knew if he got sprung the goalies were dead to rites?

Oates made passes that Nik Backstrom is making now, its been that long since we've seen that.

[ilovethelakings]

Sundin is a big yes for me. It is the Hockey Hall of Fame and not just the NHL HOF. 3 World Championship golds and an Olympic gold speak for themselves. Yes, I know he never won a Cup, but lots of awesome players never lifted the silver chalice during their careers.
Oates deserves to be in, too. Even with their injury shortened careers, Lindros and Bure should be in because they were definitely two of the most dominate players in the league for many seasons.

[hockeyjunkie99]

If Mark Howe can get into the HOF......Dave Andreychuk should definately get in!

[ilovethelakings]

If Mark Howe can get into the HOF......Dave Andreychuk should definately get in!

True, so very true.

[rizzeedizzee]

I think that players need to have won at least one stanley cup, or won at least one major award, or have been an all-star at least 5 times to even be considered for the HOF. This criteria may be unfair to players on bad teams, but in my mind truly HOF-worth talent finds a way to win or to excel at his position. Plus, this also weeds out guys like Andreychuk and Cujo, who have big stats because of their longevity but never really were the best at their position during their career.

The only possible exception might be for players who dominated so much but didn't have longevity due to career ending injury. This makes it so guys like Lindros and Bure could be considered.

My picks for 2012 would be Sakic, Bure, and Shanahan, with the toughest omission being Oates, who was so undeservedly overlooked during his career.

[cujofan2000]

Curtis Joseph, 400+ wins but I say no because I don't remember him ever being a top-five goaltender in the NHL.


CuJo was a Vezina finalist in 93' (behind Belfour and Barrasso), he was also the runner up for the Vezina in 1999 and 2000, and runner up for the Lester B. Pearson Award in 1999. CuJo is also a 3 x NHL All Star (although he only played in 2 All Star games, missing one due to injury). CuJo was surely a top 5 goalie in his days, you just have to look back as the last years of his career were not as good as his beginnings. CuJo was a great goalie, standing on his head in many playoff series, especially with the Blues, Oilers and Leafs. However, as much as I am a CuJo fan I don’t think he will get into the HHOF on a first ballot for 2012. The other individuals also up for first ballot include Fedorov, Claude Lemieux, Sakic, Shanahan, a pretty tough group if you ask me. In addition, I think CuJo is at a disadvantage of getting into the HHOF because he is a goalie. Relatively few goalies in history have been inducted into the Hall, I count only 32 goalies total currently in the HHOF. The following goalies, who are eligible for HOF induction are:

Mike Vernon (2 Stanley Cups, Jennings Trophy (shared with Osgood), Conn Smythe)
John Vanbiesbrouck (Vezina, member of the US HHOF)
Andy Moog (3 Stanley Cups)
Tom Barrasso (Calder, Vezina, 2 Stanley Cups, member of the US HHOF)
Rogie Vachon (Vezina, 3 Cups)
Mike Richter (Stanley Cup)
Lorne Chabot (Allan Cup x2, Stanley Cup x2 and Vezina)

When I look at the list of goalies not in the HHOF, I have to think that CuJo might have trouble getting in, but I sure hope he gets in eventually. Although he is missing a Cup, I still think he was a very talented goalie who gave his team a chance to win. He also always gave back a lot to the communities where he played. He won the King Clancy Award for his contributions to the community. I think being a "good person" is a trait that should be considered for HHOF induction. Being a well-respected, ambassador of the game is in my opinion important.

[GoJays]

You seem to be forgetting this isn't just the NHL hall of fame, but the hockey hall of fame. Mats Sundin led Sweden to an olympic gold medal, and is one of the best players in leaf history. Cujo should also get in, and if Pat Burns doesn't get in this year the hall of fame should close it's doors forever.

Sundin deserves to go in more than Lindros for sure.

[Riverdome]

You seem to be forgetting this isn't just the NHL hall of fame, but the hockey hall of fame. Mats Sundin led Sweden to an olympic gold medal, and is one of the best players in leaf history. Cujo should also get in, and if Pat Burns doesn't get in this year the hall of fame should close it's doors forever.

Sundin deserves to go in more than Lindros for sure.

Very good point!

[BAMBAM]

If Mark Howe can get into the HOF......Dave Andreychuk should definately get in!

How do you figure that ? Howe was first team all NHL four times. Andreychuk never was and only made the AS game once or twice tops. Howe always played against the other teams top line and was a remarkable +85 one season.

Andreychuk was the poster boy for compiler. He was a solid player but never really did anything that put him among the games elite at his position. Many rather average point total seasons is what doesn't make him HOF worthy to me. Mark Howe was an elite defenseman as a perennial Norris Trophey finalist and three time runner up.

Sundin is deserving of HOF status. I think Lindros should be in at some point because he was the single most dominate player in the league for a period of time and his accomplishments outside of the NHL were just as impressive as Sundins. Given Lindros' injury issues he still averaged well over a point a game.

Sakic, Roenick and Oates are no brainers who will all be in some day. Sakic should be first ballot.

[frozenntimesports]

The following goalies, who are eligible for HOF induction are:

Mike Vernon (2 Stanley Cups, Jennings Trophy (shared with Osgood), Conn Smythe)
John Vanbiesbrouck (Vezina, member of the US HHOF)
Andy Moog (3 Stanley Cups)
Tom Barrasso (Calder, Vezina, 2 Stanley Cups, member of the US HHOF)
Rogie Vachon (Vezina, 3 Cups)
Mike Richter (Stanley Cup)
Lorne Chabot (Allan Cup x2, Stanley Cup x2 and Vezina)

When I look at the list of goalies not in the HHOF, I have to think that CuJo might have trouble getting in, but I sure hope he gets in eventually. Although he is missing a Cup, I still think he was a very talented goalie who gave his team a chance to win. He also always gave back a lot to the communities where he played. He won the King Clancy Award for his contributions to the community. I think being a "good person" is a trait that should be considered for HHOF induction. Being a well-respected, ambassador of the game is in my opinion important.


The thing is, if you put CuJo in, you probably have to put Chris Osgood in too. I like Chris Osgood, but he is not a hall of famer.

Curious what your opinion is on this Bammer.

[Dobber2330]

What is the difference between Jeremy Roenick and Dave Andreychuk??

One Stanley Cup and 127 goals

Dave Andreychuk gets in as a first ballot HOFer. I say that and am a big JR fan.

13th all time in goals - I don't care how you slice it but he averaged 28 goals a game for 23 years....

[BloHockeyNut]

What is the difference between Jeremy Roenick and Dave Andreychuk??

One Stanley Cup and 127 goals

Dave Andreychuk gets in as a first ballot HOFer. I say that and am a big JR fan.

13th all time in goals - I don't care how you slice it but he averaged 28 goals a game for 23 years....

Wow 28 goals a game!!!!!!! Crap I thought #99 had the record. LOL


I do like Andreychuck myself. All around real nice guy. It was not his fault he played for the Sabres. As for Housley I never liked him he sucked real bad. The big thing every time he was on the ice at the old Aud ( season ticket holder since my Dad got them when I was a kid) was hit'em with your purse Philis.

[ilovethelakings]

Wow 28 goals a game!!!!!!! Crap I thought #99 had the record. LOL


I do like Andreychuck myself. All around real nice guy. It was not his fault he played for the Sabres. As for Housley I never liked him he sucked real bad. The big thing every time he was on the ice at the old Aud ( season ticket holder since my Dad got them when I was a kid) was hit'em with your purse Philis.

Nope. Dave Andreychuk scored about 50k career regular season goals. He set each game to rookie, went behind the net to fake out the goalie, and came back around in front of the net and wristed goals in at will. I thought this was common knowledge :p

[frozenntimesports]

Nope. Dave Andreychuk scored about 50k career regular season goals. He set each game to rookie, went behind the net to fake out the goalie, and came back around in front of the net and wristed goals in at will. I thought this was common knowledge :p

I blame the goalies in NHL 94 for falling for that stinking left right move ever tim for the inflated stats of the 90s. Its the only possible explanation for Teemu Selanne's rookie year.

[cujofan2000]

The thing is, if you put CuJo in, you probably have to put Chris Osgood in too. I like Chris Osgood, but he is not a hall of famer.

As far as Chris Osgood goes he is not even eligible for Hall of Fame induction until 2014 (you need to be retired for three seasons before you are eligible for Hall of Fame induction … Gretzky was one exception to this rule). Osgood is a potential Hall of Famer in my opinion. He won three Cups. He is also 10th all time in wins and he won the Jennings trophy twice (shared with Vernon in 96 and Hasek in 08). He is a 3x NHL all Star (only played in 2, missed one due to injury). He has been a league leader in Wins (1996) and GAA (playoffs and regular season 2008). He is 4th all time in win % and has the 7th best GAA career of all time. Based on stats and wins I would say Osgood is a potential Hall of Famer. However as I pointed out before there are a number of goalies with cups and good stats that are eligible but still have not been inducted into the Hall of Fame. It is tough getting into the Hall of Fame as a goalie, bottom line.

When it comes to Joseph GoJays makes a good point:

You seem to be forgetting this isn't just the NHL hall of fame, but the hockey hall of fame.

International play should have some influence on a players induction into the Hall of Fame. If you look at Joseph he has represented Canada well in international competition. Yes he had a bit of a melt down in the one game he played in the 2002 Olympics, and Marty B. played all but one of the games, but Joseph was still part of that team and won a Gold Medal with Canada at the Olympics. In addition CuJo won gold with Canada at the 1997 IIHF Worlds and the 2007 Spengler Cup. He also won a silver medal with Canada at the 96’ IIHF worlds and he lost in the final of the 96’ World Cup of Hockey.

I also agree with GoJays about the following:

if Pat Burns doesn't get in this year the hall of fame should close it's doors forever.

I was very disappointed that he was not inducted while he was still alive.

Connie

[frozenntimesports]

I was very disappointed that he was not inducted while he was still alive.

Connie


Agreed, that was a disgrace.

[BAMBAM]

The thing is, if you put CuJo in, you probably have to put Chris Osgood in too. I like Chris Osgood, but he is not a hall of famer.

Curious what your opinion is on this Bammer.

Goalies are a tough call as many of them have up and down careers and have their numbers tainted because they hang on too long. Plus you have to look at the era played in especially when it comes to equipment. Only two I can think of that are no brainers are Roy and Broudeur.

Guys like Barrasso, Beezer and Richter had their moments but not enough of them IMHO. Moog has Cups but he was along for the ride as Fuhr was the man for at least two that I remember.

Cujo has solid stats but he was on some solid teams that underachieved and he never won much hardware so I think he'll be passed over.

Vernon might be the guy on that list to get in because he was a hero in Calgary. There is no doubt a bias with voters so I could see Vernon somehow getting in down the road.

[hairysasquatch]

Vernon might be the guy on that list to get in because he was a hero in Calgary. There is no doubt a bias with voters so I could see Vernon somehow getting in down the road.

+1 can't forget Vernie's role in the 1997 Red Wings Stanley Cup - I still have the postgame team picture where he is chomping on a cigar!

[Prospect Rush]

Its the Hockey Hall of Fame. You really don't need to be very good to get in :rolleyes:

[ckilgor5]

Its the Hockey Hall of Fame. You really don't need to be very good to get in :rolleyes:

YEAH!:rolleyes:

[cujofan2000]

Cujo has solid stats but he was on some solid teams that underachieved and he never won much hardware so I think he'll be passed over.

I have to disagree with you saying that Joseph played on some solid teams that underachieved. The only team I think he played on that was solid and that he had a legitimate Cup shot with was the Red Wings. CuJo was always a workhorse when it came to the teams he played on. He is third all time in shots faced (26795), he is behind Brodeur and Roy. I think CuJo made an impact on all of the teams he played for, but I especially feel he made the Blues and Oilers better teams.

BLUES:

With the Blues Joseph played 280 regular season games and faced a total of 8750 shots, and his career save % with the Blues is .907%. In the 1992-93 season Joseph faced 2202 shots over 68 games (avg = 32.4 shots per game), the most of any goalie in the NHL that year. Again in 1993-94 Joseph faced the most shots in the league, 2382 shots in 71 games (avg = 33.5 shots per game). Even while facing as many shots as he maintained a save % above .900 and winning percentage of well over .500 . In playoffs Joseph stood on his head with the Blues, the 1992-93 playoffs especially come to mind, especially the Leafs/Blues Round 2 series. In the first 2 games of the series Joseph faced 121 shots, Potvin faced only 74 shots. Out of the 121 shots Joseph faced he only allowed 3 goals. The Blues were defeated by the Leafs in the series but I don't think the Blues would have gone as far as they did that year without the fine goaltending of Joseph.

OILERS:

With the Oilers Joseph played 177 regular season games and faced a total of 5016 shots and his save % with the Oilers was .902. The Oilers were not a strong team when Joseph played for them. The Oilers made the playoffs with Joseph as their goalie in 96/97, this was the Oilers first playoff appearance since 91/92. In both the 96/97 and 97/98 playoffs CuJo was spectacular. As a born and raised Oilers fan I will never forget those saves and how he stole games.


Joseph is missing trophies and I do think that is a bit of a mark against him when it comes to the Hall. He was runner up for the Vezina a few times and only ever made it as far as the Conference Finals in the playoffs. Regardless I can think of a number of goalies who have trophies but in my opinion were not in the same league as Joseph when it came to goaltending ability. Jim Carey has a Vezina trophy and we all know what became of him, one good year and that was about it. I can also think of goalies who have trophies but have not been inducted, so when it comes to goalies I am not sure how important trophies and awards are but I am sure it does not hurt. With goalies one can always make the argument that solid teams made a goalie look good. As a goalie myself, I know that goalies are usually the first blamed and the last thanked ... being a goalie is a tough world, even when it comes down to the Hall of Fame.

[Army19K]

Its the Hockey Hall of Fame. You really don't need to be very good to get in :rolleyes:

Yeah it isnt like baseball, where you can be 350 pounds and need oxygen after running from first to second base, but be considered a "athlete"

[rizzeedizzee]

I think a lot of the support for Cujo comes from people who were fans or saw him play, as they care more.

I see Cujo as a no because of what I call the "wow, really???" test. That test consists of leaping ahead 10 years and asking yourself whether you're more likely to say "wow, really??" to hearing that Cujo was or wasn't in the HOF. Whatever your answer would be should hold a lot of weight in the here and now.

This is why I think that "borderline" guys like Oates, Lindros and Bure deserve to get in, since they pass the "wow, really??" test.

Yeah, it's unscientific, but I think it actually gets you to the "right answer" more often than not.