Andrew McCutchen for MVP

[solt0131]

Since Matt Kemp was slowed down with an injury, it's time the baseball world realizes that Andrew McCutchen should be the NL MVP. The kid is absolutely tearing it up on offense and on defense. Although judging from the All Star voting, most of you don't even know who he is.

[37Jetson]

With the strong showing this year of the Pirates I would agree that Andrew McCutcheon is a MVP candidate. If the season ended today I think he would finish second to David Wright. There is plenty of season left for him to further prove himself.

[BAMBAM]

Weren't they in about the same spot last year at the break...then what happened ? Watching the series between them and the Phillies didn't show me much to make me think they'll be around in September. I like Clint Hurdle, he's a solid manager but he's not God. You'd think after 19 straight horrible seasons they'd have a little more to put on the field. Didn't the Pens teach them anything about being horrible to rebuild ? :eek: :devil:

[solt0131]

Weren't they in about the same spot last year at the break...then what happened ? Watching the series between them and the Phillies didn't show me much to make me think they'll be around in September. I like Clint Hurdle, he's a solid manager but he's not God. You'd think after 19 straight horrible seasons they'd have a little more to put on the field. Didn't the Pens teach them anything about being horrible to rebuild ? :eek: :devil:

Please try and stay on topic....this isn't about the Pirates as a team, it's about Andrew McCutchen. I will re-hash the thread about the 2012 Pirates so you can post there. Thanks.

[BAMBAM]

Please try and stay on topic....this isn't about the Pirates as a team, it's about Andrew McCutchen. I will re-hash the thread about the 2012 Pirates so you can post there. Thanks.

OK relax killer, I'll break your balls in the correct thread. jeez :rolleyes:

[dusen]

Since Matt Kemp was slowed down with an injury, it's time the baseball world realizes that Andrew McCutchen should be the NL MVP. The kid is absolutely tearing it up on offense and on defense. Although judging from the All Star voting, most of you don't even know who he is.

He is playing out of his mind right now. I think I would give it to him or Votto right now.

[danimal875]

I think one of the reasons he gets very little exposure nationally is unfortunately, his hair. If he had a more corporate appearance he would be promoted left and right.

[DtigersFan]

MVP usually goes to someone on a winning team. Look at 2010 AL MVP Miggy Cabrera deserved to win and Hamilton won it.

[CALVINXLIONSX81]

Nice job looking at an ESPN story and making ur own out of it

[lampthechamp25]

The Melk Man.

[WilsonValdez]

Please try and stay on topic....this isn't about the Pirates as a team, it's about Andrew McCutchen. I will re-hash the thread about the 2012 Pirates so you can post there. Thanks.

Wait this thread isn't about the cowardly showing by the Penguins and their fan(s)?

Oops...wrong thread.


Cutch is a stud though.

[pskell02]

Nice job looking at an ESPN story and making ur own out of it

Regardless of where he got the idea for this thread, he isn't wrong. While he might fall short of a few guys, Wright, Votto, etc, Cutch isn't far off.

[ufcwecfan]

MVP usually goes to someone on a winning team. Look at 2010 AL MVP Miggy Cabrera deserved to win and Hamilton won it.

+1. Couldnt have said it better myself

[IamRalpho]

As of now the Pirates are a winning team, so I guess its possible. I have him on my fantasy team and he is a JOY to watch.

[pskell02]

He may have just Jason Werth'ed his wrist. Still in the game, so hope he is alright.

[WilsonValdez]

He may have just Jason Werth'ed his wrist. Still in the game, so hope he is alright.

Noooooooo....please no. My fantasy team is thin enough as is.

[xbignick]

Still has a couple players in front of him for the award if it ended today but he's up there.

And I'm not a fan of the "winning team" argument. This isn't basketball (and even there it's wrong). Individual players cannot carry teams.

[Chaddie84]

I think one of the reasons he gets very little exposure nationally is unfortunately, his hair. If he had a more corporate appearance he would be promoted left and right.

I disagree with this. Think Manny or Lincecum. The issue is the team he plays for.

[7290morint]

He's going to have to find some way to surpass Votto who is getting on base almost 50 % of his at bats.

[Norfolk23]

He's going to have to find some way to surpass Votto who is getting on base almost 50 % of his at bats.

He's on pace for 69 doubles which is absurd.

[Tommy12oz]

Right now Wright and Votto are 1 and 1A

[MetDude]

Individual players cannot take over games.

Wrong

RA DICKEY FOR MVP! :)!

[SteelersRock245]

McCutchen for MVP is a no brainer- look at his stats he leads team in every offensive category except AB's and strikeouts, who is most vital to team's success, gotta be Cutch.

[danimal875]

I disagree with this. Think Manny or Lincecum. The issue is the team he plays for.
Good point, however, they were absolutely dominant at the their peaks, their quirks became endearing. If Cutch had 28 Homeruns right now to go with that .340 BA, the mainstream sports media would be all over him. Yes, the Pirates have a damaging effect. Just think, when Jeter was putting up similar #'s he had national commercials. He has never won an MVP, but he was treated as such.

[Zoop]

Carlos Beltran has to be up there in the top three. Cutch is great though. Doing it all in CF.

[solt0131]

McCutchen got injured in yesterday's game. Sprained wrist....not sure how long he will be out.

[csa1373]

To me McCutchen is the clear cut MVP (up to right now)...Hitting .346 (ridiculous, even though 5th in the NL right now) 15 HRs, 14 SBs, 51 RBI...AND...most improtantly (and again, RIGHT NOW)...His team is winning!!!...There are some guys having great years, but, any of them have less around them than Cutch? Not to me..Let's see if he can keep it going...If I had to bet, he wouldn't finish hitting too much over .300 (still a great year), but we shal see...

[blackbears86]

and his cards are very undervalued.....the guy is a beast!!!:)!

[mdogg]

Ryan Braun may have something to say about that

[Homerun]

If he didn't get injured, i think that he would of been the MVP in the NL. Hopefully Paul Konerko is the MVP in the AL.

[7290morint]

Andrew McCutchen has had a good season, but there is no way he beats out Joey Votto, David Wright or Carlos Ruiz who has been excellent this season. This argument about his "team is winning" is absolute nonsense.

[solt0131]

Andrew McCutchen has had a good season, but there is no way he beats out Joey Votto, David Wright or Carlos Ruiz who has been excellent this season. This argument about his "team is winning" is absolute nonsense.

Carlos Ruiz? You serious Clark? Votto isn't even top 10 in HR's or RBI. I would say Braun or Beltran before any of those guys. Surprised you didn't throw Melky Cabrera in there either.....:confused::confused::confused:

[ScooterD]

You serious Clark?

PRICELESS!!!

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlUWFGeAVdh0JuxZogT_jqxYWt2F9ByoibH5CXkRWXmXt6CnYp

[7290morint]

Carlos Ruiz? You serious Clark? Votto isn't even top 10 in HR's or RBI. I would say Braun or Beltran before any of those guys. Surprised you didn't throw Melky Cabrera in there either.....:confused::confused::confused:

I'm not looking at single stats. I'm looking at Wins Above Replacement or WAR and Andrew McCutchen is behind all of them in terms of WAR, but people here don't seem to care about stats that actually measure someones value...

National League Leaderboards 2012 Batters Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=nl&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0)

Here are the leaders in the NL by WAR. Joey Votto, David Wright, Carlos Ruiz, Michael Bourne, Ryan Braun & Martin Prado are all ahead of McCutchen and WAR also takes into account a players defensive value as well. Nobody cares about RBI which is a context dependent stat. Clearly shows there are players who are better than McCutchen right now. He certainly could end up better than all of them but probably isn't going to happen with the season that Joey Votto is having. I mean, Joey Votto is getting on base in nearly 50 % of his at bats, how is that not valuable?

[The Madbacker]

Please try and stay on topic....this isn't about the Pirates as a team, it's about Andrew McCutchen. I will re-hash the thread about the 2012 Pirates so you can post there. Thanks.

My God, you are a sensitive Sarah.

[mdogg]

Hopefully Braun gets voted a starter in the ASG, not the Melk-man, but if so, the conspiracy will be that this is payback for Miller Park beating AT&T in the battle of the ballparks

[zookerman182]

brew crew are only 7 games out. and braun has better numbers than every NL player at this point.

[Metsfan1121]

Just curious for you WAR experts, can someone explain to me why the Yankees have no one near the top? Does the stat favor losing teams?

[7290morint]

Just curious for you WAR experts, can someone explain to me why the Yankees have no one near the top? Does the stat favor losing teams?

That WAR grid I posted was for the NL ONLY. Here is one that contains both leagues;

Major League Leaderboards 2012 Batters Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0)

Cano is Top 10 at 7.

[Metsfan1121]

That WAR grid I posted was for the NL ONLY. Here is one that contains both leagues;

Major League Leaderboards 2012 Batters Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0)

Cano is Top 10 at 7.

Wow, now I feel dumb. Surprised I didn't notice that

[Metsfan1121]

On the MLB player poll they asked which MLB position player was having the best year, the MLB players voted:
6-Konerko (tied with #5)
5-Ruiz
4-Melky
3-Wright
2-Votto
1-Hamilton

Fans voted
5-Ruiz
4-Melky
3-Trout
2-Votto
1-Hamilton

[jasonmj]

:) Great to see Prado's name get put in with those other players! Most underrated player in Baseball. How many of those players have played in 4 different positions this year and have batted in three different spots in the lineup?

McCutchen along with all the other are great players. Prado just means a little more to his team IMHO. (I am a little biased....)


I'm not looking at single stats. I'm looking at Wins Above Replacement or WAR and Andrew McCutchen is behind all of them in terms of WAR, but people here don't seem to care about stats that actually measure someones value...

National League Leaderboards 2012 Batters Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=nl&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0)

Here are the leaders in the NL by WAR. Joey Votto, David Wright, Carlos Ruiz, Michael Bourne, Ryan Braun & Martin Prado are all ahead of McCutchen and WAR also takes into account a players defensive value as well. Nobody cares about RBI which is a context dependent stat. Clearly shows there are players who are better than McCutchen right now. He certainly could end up better than all of them but probably isn't going to happen with the season that Joey Votto is having. I mean, Joey Votto is getting on base in nearly 50 % of his at bats, how is that not valuable?

[solt0131]

McCutchen now leads the league in hitting.....looks like he should start in the All Star Game if Kemp can't go!

[7290morint]

McCutchen now leads the league in hitting.....looks like he should start in the All Star Game if Kemp can't go!

Chipper Jones took Kemps spot on the All Star team and Braun is starting in the outfield.

Braun to start in All-Star Game - JSOnline (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/161275395.html#!page=1&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst)

[solt0131]

Chipper Jones took Kemps spot on the All Star team and Braun is starting in the outfield.

Braun to start in All-Star Game - JSOnline (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/161275395.html#!page=1&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst)

BOOOOOOOO!!!! McCutchen is the one on the first place team and has better numbers than Braun. Big Fail there.

[7290morint]

BOOOOOOOO!!!! McCutchen is the one on the first place team and has better numbers than Braun. Big Fail there.

Actually it's not.
Braun has a WAR of 4.1

Ryan Braun Statistics Batting | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3410&position=OF)

McCutchen has a WAR of 4.0

Andrew McCutchen Statistics Batting | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=9847&position=OF)

pretty equal to me. could make an argument either way.

[solt0131]

#22 is officially in BEAST MODE! MVP, MVP, MVP!!!!!!!!!

[Ooosh]

Actually it's not.
Braun has a WAR of 4.1

Ryan Braun Statistics Batting | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3410&position=OF)

McCutchen has a WAR of 4.0

Andrew McCutchen Statistics Batting | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=9847&position=OF)

pretty equal to me. could make an argument either way.

Depends

McCutchen:
- FanGraphs - 4.0
- Baseball Reference - 4.0

Braun:
- FanGraphs - 4.1
- Baseball Reference - 3.5

Difference is DRS & UZR. That said, I think people like FanGraphs better.

[deboesports]

#22 is officially in BEAST MODE! MVP, MVP, MVP!!!!!!!!!

you got that right! :flex:

[fitch123]

Actually it's not.
Braun has a WAR of 4.1

Ryan Braun Statistics Batting | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3410&position=OF)

McCutchen has a WAR of 4.0

Andrew McCutchen Statistics Batting | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=9847&position=OF)

pretty equal to me. could make an argument either way.


If that includes defensive WAR (and I'm pretty sure it does), it is a flawed stat.

On baseball reference, McCutchen is leading the MLB with a offensive WAR of 4.5, Braun is nowhere in the top 10.



What it should do is cause you to question the validity of defensive metrics based on small samples. WAR is trying to estimate the value of a player's performance over a certain period of time. It is NOT trying to estimate the true level of talent of a player. For batter stats, sample size doesn't matter. A single is a single, no matter if it was a line drive one hopper to the CFer or a 8 hopper groundball between 3rd and short. The batter is given the run value of an average single in an average base/out situation.

For defense, it's different. We don't know if a defender saved a hit or botched a sure out, so we make an educated guess based on the trajectory and speed of the hit ball. That may work reasonably well over thousands of fielding opportunities but there is just too much noise after even half a season.

Long story short, in-season WAR numbers are very suspect when they are heavily influenced by the defensive run component. I'm even suspicious of single year WAR values when they include double-digit defensive run values. It seems to me like the defensive component should be regressed.

[SteelersRock245]

HR derby replacement now as well, just hoping he doesn't pull a Jason Bay on us Bucco fans.

[neahcrow]

I think McCutchen is an interesting case of hold/sell? He has some hype now but if he actually wins the MVP and the Pirates can make the playoffs I think it goes up more.

[7290morint]

Depends

McCutchen:
- FanGraphs - 4.0
- Baseball Reference - 4.0

Braun:
- FanGraphs - 4.1
- Baseball Reference - 3.5

Difference is DRS & UZR. That said, I think people like FanGraphs better.

If that includes defensive WAR (and I'm pretty sure it does), it is a flawed stat.

On baseball reference, McCutchen is leading the MLB with a offensive WAR of 4.5, Braun is nowhere in the top 10.

Fangraphs doesn't include a "defensive or offensive WAR value". It's based on wRAA (weighted runs above average), UBR (ultimate base running) & UZR (ultimate zone rating). The only one of those that is suspect is UZR as it takes years of data to really be of use so I don't really know how it's "flawed".

Baseball reference as noted uses DSR. I know that this seems to really favor defense as it makes Brett Lawrie seem like he's Frank Robinson with a defensive WAR value of 3.6. As Ooosh said, I do believe most prefer fan graphs version of WAR.

[tman109ner]

Don't leave out David Wright. When you compare all the stats on Fangraphs, Joey Votto and David Wright both top each other out at different stats. I think those two will fight it out till the last day. If the Mets make the playoffs, Wright will have an edge. Thats not saying McCutchen won't either if the Bucko's make it. Only time will tell!

[guru]

My NL MVP at the Break is...

Joey Votto

Followed by: Andrew McCutchen & David Wright

[ScooterD]

I think McCutchen is an interesting case of hold/sell? He has some hype now but if he actually wins the MVP and the Pirates can make the playoffs I think it goes up more.

I think ur right, but if he wins the Derby (slim chance, but possible) I'm selling

[blackbears86]

i wouldn't sell, cutch's crads are still pretty cheap and he is ust hitting his prime.......

[thebear29]

i wouldn't sell, cutch's crads are still pretty cheap and he is ust hitting his prime.......

Sell when you think you are getting enough back, or you can be a loser like me still waiting for Phil Nevin to hit his prime!!

[CM Sports Memorabilia]

I don't have much McCutchen stuff except for a red refractor from 2010 Bowman Chrome 2/5 that goes on the bay for a 10 day auction this Thursday. A good AS showing would be a great thing for him, Pittsburg and anyone selling his stuff!:rolleyes: