Kobe = Best Laker Ever?

[Haiku]

For anyone who thinks he is the greatest player ever,
For anyone who thinks he is the top five player of all time,
He is not even the Greatest Laker ever.
I guess some of you young fellas never heard of
Magic or Kareem

Kobe is without a doubt the greatest player in the last decade before passing the torch to King Hairline.

[Orangejello727]

In my opinion Kobe is the best laker of all time. Infact in my opinion Kobe is the GOAT player in the NBA!!

[Haiku]

In my opinion Kobe is the best laker of all time. Infact in my opinion Kobe is the GOAT player in the NBA!!

I know that you know that I know that you know that I know that you know that you don't believe that.. You know?

[bdoody42]

Greatest all time? Joke post right?

In my opinion Kobe is the best laker of all time. Infact in my opinion Kobe is the GOAT player in the NBA!!

[DetectiveChrome]

I'm going against the grain here and gonna make a case for Kurt Rambis...

[Orangejello727]

Greatest all time? Joke post right?

The only joke here is thinking your opinion affects mine and that you can argue it.


I know that you know that I know that you know that I know that you know that you don't believe that.. You know?

Ohhhh....I know!

[mrveggieman]

Does the name Wilt Chamberlain ring a bell to any of you?

[bdoody42]

I'm not saying I can change your opinion but obviously only a biased or young persons point of view. I could see an agreement for top five and he is for sure top ten, but number 1 isn't happening. I would love to hear your reasoning though.

[bdoody42]

I'm not saying I can change your opinion but obviously only a biased or young persons point of view. I could see an agruement for top five and he is for sure top ten, but number 1 isn't happening. I would love to hear your reasoning though.

I am pretty sure that my opinion would be what 99% on what people think.

[Gambit]

"Best Laker Ever" is too broad of a statement.

"Best" can be sub-categorized either by stats, championships, popularity, etc...

IMO, bringing the championship trophy to the city is what I consider to be the best athlete of that team in any decade, followed by individual stats..

So if Kobe gets more rings than Magic (who has 5) or Kareem (who has 6), then I will consider him the best Laker ever..

If Kobe doesn't win anymore championships and retires with 5 rings, then Magic or Kareem gets my nod over him.

[tnarg]

He is the best laker ever. Period.

[Orangejello727]

I'm not saying I can change your opinion but obviously only a biased or young persons point of view. I could see an agreement for top five and he is for sure top ten, but number 1 isn't happening. I would love to hear your reasoning though.

Ill give you my reasoning to Kobe being GOAT in my opinion.. so as long you understand that the loaded question asked by Haiku is all subjective anyways.

Kobe in my opinion has the stats and accomplishments to put in the top rankings of the greatest players that played in the NBA. Once you get to that top ranking between lets say 5 players, everything comes subjective. Russell had more rings, Kareem had more pts, MJ had more MVPS etc.. Some people give certain criterias more pts than others. Some will say MJs MVPs are worth more than Russells rings. Or Kareems pts are worth more than this or that.

So picking a GOAT is pretty impossible until you throw your opinion into it. This is where my opinion of Kobe comes in. Aside from stats and accomplishments and Kobe being my favorite player, I look at determination and drive. Im not saying all the other guys didnt have it, Im saying Kobe had it more. Kobe put more effort into working harder to define his game, to better himself and made basketball his life. Again, this is not saying other players didnt do it, its just saying that I feel Kobe went the extra distance.

Kobe would finish a game and lose. He would go back onto the court after the game and take FTs, jump shots and layups. He would go back out after the game and try and fix whatever the issue was. On days off, he is in the gym conditioning his game. In the off season, he is doing anything possible to model his game to be better.

When MJ played, he defined basketball and the NBA. With kobe, his life was/is basketball. Two different perspectives.

I dont know what holds water when you rank who is the GOAT. But for me personally after number crunching stats and awards, it becomes subjective. THe reason above is what puts Kobe above everyone else there after. That coupled with him being my favourite player of all time.

[thepinoymamba]

KObe is the greatest Lakers of all time. The most Points scored in one Franchise...

Kobe Bryant will end up being in the Top 5 of all time greats..

Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson

[Haiku]

KObe is the greatest Lakers of all time. The most Points scored in one Franchise...

Kobe Bryant will end up being in the Top 5 of all time greats..

Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson

And some how you left out Kareem??

[tnarg]

He is the best laker ever. Period.

Scratch that. Kobe is the best player to ever play the game. Period.

[Haiku]

Scratch that. Kobe is the best player to ever play the game. Period.

Word! I think you have convinced me to change my mind.
My flight keeps getting delayed and I'm going keep on posting

[Yanke3z11]

"Best Laker Ever"= Luke Walton
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn174/yanke3z11/image.png

[forgiven1]

Kobe is The Best Laker Ever!..

[Haiku]

Ill give you my reasoning to Kobe being GOAT in my opinion.. so as long you understand that the loaded question asked by Haiku is all subjective anyways.

Kobe in my opinion has the stats and accomplishments to put in the top rankings of the greatest players that played in the NBA. Once you get to that top ranking between lets say 5 players, everything comes subjective. Russell had more rings, Kareem had more pts, MJ had more MVPS etc.. Some people give certain criterias more pts than others. Some will say MJs MVPs are worth more than Russells rings. Or Kareems pts are worth more than this or that.

So picking a GOAT is pretty impossible until you throw your opinion into it. This is where my opinion of Kobe comes in. Aside from stats and accomplishments and Kobe being my favorite player, I look at determination and drive. Im not saying all the other guys didnt have it, Im saying Kobe had it more. Kobe put more effort into working harder to define his game, to better himself and made basketball his life. Again, this is not saying other players didnt do it, its just saying that I feel Kobe went the extra distance.

Kobe would finish a game and lose. He would go back onto the court after the game and take FTs, jump shots and layups. He would go back out after the game and try and fix whatever the issue was. On days off, he is in the gym conditioning his game. In the off season, he is doing anything possible to model his game to be better.

When MJ played, he defined basketball and the NBA. With kobe, his life was/is basketball. Two different perspectives.

I dont know what holds water when you rank who is the GOAT. But for me personally after number crunching stats and awards, it becomes subjective. THe reason above is what puts Kobe above everyone else there after. That coupled with him being my favourite player of all time.

Yes you are right cause Magic never did any of things you've mentioned and I'm sure no ther Laker has ever worked during offseason to develope their game

[blastman]

GOAT ?

Wilt
Jordan
Kareem

[Orangejello727]

Yes you are right cause Magic never did any of things you've mentioned and I'm sure no ther Laker has ever worked during offseason to develope their game

I dont see anywhere where I said no other player did it. Dime eyes much?

I said Kobe in my opinion worked harder than any other player. He also had more determination than any other player.

[Haiku]

I dont see anywhere where I said no other player did it. Dime eyes much?

I said Kobe in my opinion worked harder than any other player. He also had more determination than any other player.

Of course you are right!
I must constantly remind my self that your opinions are FACTS
Thank you Mr.Google/Wikipedia, I'm glad we have you to share not your opinions but FACTS with us at all time :)!
Thank you again.

[Orangejello727]

EDIT:

Wont argue with a guy purposely looking to fight. ,i,,

[Haiku]

EDIT:

Wont argue with a guy purposely looking to fight. ,i,,

You should've kept the charge back, that was better :devil:

[pac213up]

Similar to the NFL and QB arguments I think it is VERY difficult to make comparisons across various eras of the sport, even though people love to do it. The game was once a dominant big man game, that is no longer the case. The rules now clearly favor the offensive side of things and as such the game has shifted to a smaller, more athletic version of itself, dominated by guard play.

[bdoody42]

I dont see anywhere where I said no other player did it. Dime eyes much?

I said Kobe in my opinion worked harder than any other player. He also had more determination than any other player.

I understand Kobe was a hard worker and for sure he is, but I think many great players had similar drives behind them. Even some scrub players work extremely hard they just don't have the talent to be a stud like Kobe.

I measure my GOAT by rings,stats and championships.
Kobe has won five championships but was only the MVP twice. The other three times Shaq was clearly the best player on that team. Kobe only has one regular season MVP award. He should have one more btw.

I am a Celtics fan so I have a clear mind in this and not bias. I don't see how an agreement for Kobe can be made over Jordan. I also believe that many will argue Magic,Wilt,Kareem,or Russell for being better than Kobe. Due to not wanting to write a book I will just make Jordan's case.

Five times regular season MVP. Should have had one more as well.
Six championships and was MVP every time he won. Every year he made the finals he won.
Jordan has similar numbers as Kobe even though he retired for some time during his prime.

I just can't see how anyone can argue Kobe over Jordan at this point. Maybe if Kobe wins a couple more championships he can pass Jordan but as of now I don't think the argument can be made.

[JK8283]

I'll never forget the drive Kobe showed when he despondently passed the ball the entire 4th quarter in game 7 of the west semis vs Phoenix and his will to get blown out in a joke of a finals game 7 against the Celtics. All that aside, he's a great player but not the greatest Laker as long as Magic Johnson is still considered a Laker lol.

[forgiven1]

Kobe Bryant is the greatest Laker ever hands down!!!!!

[Haiku]

I'll never forget the drive Kobe showed when he despondently passed the ball the entire 4th quarter in game 7 of the west semis vs Phoenix and his will to get blown out in a joke of a finals game 7 against the Celtics.

For number of years I simply had an opinion of Kobe being a much better player than Lebron because of his killer instincts at the end of the game.
As a viewer watching the game I always feel like lakers are in it if they are down by two with 8seconds to go because of Kobe.
It was never like that with Lebron until last year for me.
Kobe is arguably the top 7 greatest of all time but I just don't see him being the greatest at all.

[SportCardBuffet]

What about Shaq-Fu?????

[Haiku]

EDIT:

Wont argue with a guy purposely looking to fight. ,i,,

I'm just picking a fight with you cause I'm an as$hole.
Please don't take anything I say seriously and I do value your opinion since you are one of the rare few that actually adds a constructive criticism that has a reasoning behind it.

[murrke03]

I understand Kobe was a hard worker and for sure he is, but I think many great players had similar drives behind them. Even some scrub players work extremely hard they just don't have the talent to be a stud like Kobe.

I measure my GOAT by rings,stats and championships.
Kobe has won five championships but was only the MVP twice. The other three times Shaq was clearly the best player on that team. Kobe only has one regular season MVP award. He should have one more btw.

I am a Celtics fan so I have a clear mind in this and not bias. I don't see how an agreement for Kobe can be made over Jordan. I also believe that many will argue Magic,Wilt,Kareem,or Russell for being better than Kobe. Due to not wanting to write a book I will just make Jordan's case.

Five times regular season MVP. Should have had one more as well.
Six championships and was MVP every time he won. Every year he made the finals he won.
Jordan has similar numbers as Kobe even though he retired for some time during his prime.

I just can't see how anyone can argue Kobe over Jordan at this point. Maybe if Kobe wins a couple more championships he can pass Jordan but as of now I don't think the argument can be made.

don't say that! Kobe was the MAIN MAN on the lakers during all the championships.

at least according to someone... :rolleyes:

[Haiku]

What about Shaq-Fu?????

Yup! One of the Most dominant player of all time should be mentioned in this as well.

[1eyed_jack]

I think that while often times people are a prisoner of the moment with players, people also get stuck in "Everything was better before" mode, where they can't judge current things because they don't give them a fair shake.

I believe Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time, and I also believe Lebron's name belongs nowhere in this thread because he's not even close to being in the same picture as kobe

[tnarg]

Yes you are right cause Magic never did any of things you've mentioned and I'm sure no ther Laker has ever worked during offseason to develope their game

Magic Johnson is/was overrated. The whole reason he had success is because he faked having HIV so players wouldn't get near him so he'd have open looks at the basket. Anyone can play good ball when defenders are scared they'll get AIDS.

[bdoody42]

Magic Johnson is/was overrated. The whole reason he had success is because he faked having HIV so players wouldn't get near him so he'd have open looks at the basket. Anyone can play good ball when defenders are scared they'll get AIDS.

That just took the cake as most ignorant post of the day.....

[bdoody42]

don't say that! Kobe was the MAIN MAN on the lakers during all the championships.

at least according to someone... :rolleyes:

I just say the truth :)

[1eyed_jack]

don't say that! Kobe was the MAIN MAN on the lakers during all the championships.

at least according to someone... :rolleyes:

You know, I get that Shaq was THE guy during those years, but people act like kobe was barely on the team

Kobe Bryant 28 points vs Pacers, Game 4 takeover 1999-00 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI)

[murrke03]

Magic Johnson is/was overrated. The whole reason he had success is because he faked having HIV so players wouldn't get near him so he'd have open looks at the basket. Anyone can play good ball when defenders are scared they'll get AIDS.

uh.......................

[murrke03]

You know, I get that Shaq was THE guy during those years, but people act like kobe was barely on the team

Kobe Bryant 28 points vs Pacers, Game 4 takeover 1999-00 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI)

haha i know just having some fun with oj. will be shocked if he returns to this thread...

[Haiku]

Magic Johnson is/was overrated. The whole reason he had success is because he faked having HIV so players wouldn't get near him so he'd have open looks at the basket. Anyone can play good ball when defenders are scared they'll get AIDS.

I think you maybe on to something...
Yeah.. You are going to hell...:devil:

[forgiven1]

Kobe Bryant is the Greatest Laker of All Time!...Hands Down!

[tnarg]

That just took the cake as most ignorant post of the day.....

It's a fact.
uh.......................
Uh what? Say it.

I think you maybe on to something...
Yeah.. You are going to hell...:devil:

Why am I going to hell? If anything Magic will for being a liar.

[murrke03]

Kobe Bryant is the Greatest Laker of All Time!...Hands Down!

we got a broken record on...

haha did you just want some attention?

[murrke03]

It's a fact.

Uh what? Say it.



Why am I going to hell? If anything Magic will for being a liar.

yikes......

[Haiku]

Kobe Bryant is the Greatest Laker of All Time!...Hands Down!

OJ has a reasoning on why he thinks KOBE is the greatest and even if you agree or disagree he has a solid reason on why he thinks Kobe is the Goat.
You are just posting to be posting just like me.
So in short both of us suck.

[detox]

Kurt Rambis hands down.

No factual data needed

/discussion

[tnarg]

yikes......

No yikes about it. People are just livid that their childhood hero is a fraud.

[murrke03]

No yikes about it. People are just livid that their childhood hero is a fraud.

Okay prove it.

An gum bumper isn't a reliable source lol

[Orangejello727]

I understand Kobe was a hard worker and for sure he is, but I think many great players had similar drives behind them. Even some scrub players work extremely hard they just don't have the talent to be a stud like Kobe.

While scrub players might have worked hard, they didnt achieve what Kobe did with his hard work. Some players are born talented with skill and size. Kobe wasnt. He worked for it. Not saying other players didnt, but he is one player that I feel worked and went further than any other player to get where he is!!

I measure my GOAT by rings,stats and championships.
Kobe has won five championships but was only the MVP twice. The other three times Shaq was clearly the best player on that team. Kobe only has one regular season MVP award. He should have one more btw.

If you measure GOAT by Rings, stats and Championships, players like Rusell, Kareem and Wilt have MJ beat by a mile. Yet you consider MJ the best? WHy the double standard? Bascially MJ never finish #1 in any of those catagories but you are willing to give it to him but no one else can fit the bill if they never finished at the top of those criteria lists?


I am a Celtics fan so I have a clear mind in this and not bias. I don't see how an agreement for Kobe can be made over Jordan. I also believe that many will argue Magic,Wilt,Kareem,or Russell for being better than Kobe. Due to not wanting to write a book I will just make Jordan's case.

What has What has Magic done that Kobe is missing to be the All time greatest laker? Or Kareem, Wilt. For everything you mention ill be sure to knock MJ against the what he doesnt have that Kareem, Wilt, Magic and Russell have. Then what?


Five times regular season MVP. Should have had one more as well.
Six championships and was MVP every time he won. Every year he made the finals he won.
Jordan has similar numbers as Kobe even though he retired for some time during his prime.

I cant argue the MVP vote. Its a vote done by journalist. In my opinion it means nothing at all as rightful winners have been robbed in the past due to NBA politics. Its voted upon by journalist who write for magazine that depend on advertisements by companies that sponsor guys like MJ. Pretty big conflict of interest for me whether the player deserved it or not. Prime example? Nash getting it the year Kobe crushed the league??


I just can't see how anyone can argue Kobe over Jordan at this point. Maybe if Kobe wins a couple more championships he can pass Jordan but as of now I don't think the argument can be made.

I dont know why you are comparing MJ to Kobe if Kobe hasnt finished playing. If anything you should heed to your advice and wait till its all said and done!! We'll have that debate then!!


And for the whole arguement on Kobe vs MJ total pts? Sure MJ didnt need the extra seasons to get the pts. But Kobe didnt play his early years enough to have a chance at scoring. Better yet, when you claim Shaq was the #1 option on the team, Kobe didnt have much of a choice being behind him while MJ was the #1 choice right from the beginning. MJ demanded the ball and was given every oppurtunity to pad that pts!!

The old argument amongst kobe haters was always... "Kobe needed Shaq to win his rings". When Kobe went and won a ring without Shaq, the haters were confused. Then for kicks, Kobe did it again. Haters went looking for another reason. Shaq himself called "kobe the man!!". But that doesnt matter because whatever Kobe accomplishes, there will be a roadblock waiting for him. This in my mind puts Kobe a mile ahead of everyone. THe mere fact that Kobe accomplished so much with every hater on his back.

[Orangejello727]

haha i know just having some fun with oj. will be shocked if he returns to this thread...

What you say is to rile up kobe fans.

Ill make it simple..

What Shaq was to Kobe during those championship is exactly what Wade is to Lebron during their championship. A season proven WINNER (wade) showing / leading Lebron to his first taste of a championship. I mean if Shaq did that for Kobe, Wade did it for Lebron.

All I can is, Kobe did it with Shaq. Kobe did it without Shaq. Then did it again without Shaq for good measures.

Did MJ do it without Pippen?

[1eyed_jack]

Also, you can't really count MVPs because....well....Nash has more thank Kobe, so how does that work?

[bdoody42]

And for the whole arguement on Kobe vs MJ total pts? Sure MJ didnt need the extra seasons to get the pts. But Kobe didnt play his early years enough to have a chance at scoring. Better yet, when you claim Shaq was the #1 option on the team, Kobe didnt have much of a choice being behind him while MJ was the #1 choice right from the beginning. MJ demanded the ball and was given every oppurtunity to pad that pts!!

The old argument amongst kobe haters was always... "Kobe needed Shaq to win his rings". When Kobe went and won a ring without Shaq, the haters were confused. Then for kicks, Kobe did it again. Haters went looking for another reason. Shaq himself called "kobe the man!!". But that doesnt matter because whatever Kobe accomplishes, there will be a roadblock waiting for him. This in my mind puts Kobe a mile ahead of everyone. THe mere fact that Kobe accomplished so much with every hater on his back.

I could see your argument if you were arguing Kobe as a top 5 player. The awards are there for a reason and this journalist who vote are follow the league and do it as there job. Obviously sometimes they make mistake and often value winning a little more than they should, but they also get tired of voting for the same person over and over again.
I am sure they didn't rob Kobe of the MVP four times and finals MVP four times. He would that just to be equal to Jordan award wise. Every time Jordan was favored to win the championship his team did it. The Lakers with Kobe? Not so much.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many people who agree with you that are not one the following.
1. Too young to actual see Jordan play.
2. Not diehard Kobe and laker fans.

You hear people try to compare the two on sports show and no one says that Kobe is equal or better to Jordan. Hard to imagine they're all wrong and a couple people's opinion on blowout is correct.

[bigcwd2000]

It's hard for me to pick the greatest Laker ever because both Kobe and Magic are great players and each bring something different to the table. It would be hard for me to pick Kobe over Magic and Magic over Kobe. Magic won 3 Finals MVP's Kobe won 2 and could still win more. They both have 5 NBA titles on their resume. Kobe is the more dominant scorer where Magic was the dominant assist man. They are both at the top and for me it's just hard to pick who was a better Laker player.

[bdoody42]

Every team needs a second option, but under no circumstance was Jordan ever viewed as a second option as Kobe clearly was his first three championships.

What you say is to rile up kobe fans.

Ill make it simple..

What Shaq was to Kobe during those championship is exactly what Wade is to Lebron during their championship. A season proven WINNER (wade) showing / leading Lebron to his first taste of a championship. I mean if Shaq did that for Kobe, Wade did it for Lebron.

All I can is, Kobe did it with Shaq. Kobe did it without Shaq. Then did it again without Shaq for good measures.

Did MJ do it without Pippen?

[1eyed_jack]

I could see your argument if you were arguing Kobe as a top 5 player. The awards are there for a reason and this journalist who vote are follow the league and do it as there job. Obviously sometimes they make mistake and often value winning a little more than they should, but they also get tired of voting for the same person over and over again.
I am sure they didn't rob Kobe of the MVP four times and finals MVP four times. He would that just to be equal to Jordan award wise. Every time Jordan was favored to win the championship his team did it. The Lakers with Kobe? Not so much.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many people who agree with you that are not one the following.
1. Too young to actual see Jordan play.
2. Not diehard Kobe and laker fans.

You hear people try to compare the two on sports show and no one says that Kobe is equal or better to Jordan. Hard to imagine they're all wrong and a couple people's opinion on blowout is correct.

I am a Bulls fan before anything else, and I was alive and watching every one of Jordan's championships. Jordan is better than Kobe....but not by much.


It's people's attitude with Kobe that bugs me. Jordan punches a teammate in practice and "OMG he's such a competitor!" Kobe gets on teammates and "He's a horrible teammate" There's a huge double standard that exists with these guys.

Like I said, Jordan is better than Kobe, but for the most part people tend to forget about the negative things with older players because they are so far removed from that time.

Maybe in 20 years people will look back and Kobe will be widely accepted as a top 5 player, but who knows

[1eyed_jack]

Every team needs a second option, but under no circumstance was Jordan ever viewed as a second option as Kobe clearly was his first three championships.

Kobe was the second option on that team, but at the end of the day, the Lakers don't win those titles without Kobe or Shaq

[bdoody42]

I am a Bulls fan before anything else, and I was alive and watching every one of Jordan's championships. Jordan is better than Kobe....but not by much.


It's people's attitude with Kobe that bugs me. Jordan punches a teammate in practice and "OMG he's such a competitor!" Kobe gets on teammates and "He's a horrible teammate" There's a huge double standard that exists with these guys.

Like I said, Jordan is better than Kobe, but for the most part people tend to forget about the negative things with older players because they are so far removed from that time.

Maybe in 20 years people will look back and Kobe will be widely accepted as a top 5 player, but who knows

I am by no means calling Jordan or Kobe the best teammates ever. They both do things to push players away and not get the best out of there teammates like Magic,Robertson,Bird, or Lebron. These are players known more for passing and making others better.

We can compare Kobe and Jordan easier than other players because of the similar style.

I am not saying Kobe isn't amazing. He just shouldn't be argued as the best ever. Clearly.

[SacGWYNN19]

LOL at this thread. Kobe couldn't hold Magic's jock....period.

[murrke03]

What you say is to rile up kobe fans.

Ill make it simple..

What Shaq was to Kobe during those championship is exactly what Wade is to Lebron during their championship. A season proven WINNER (wade) showing / leading Lebron to his first taste of a championship. I mean if Shaq did that for Kobe, Wade did it for Lebron.

All I can is, Kobe did it with Shaq. Kobe did it without Shaq. Then did it again without Shaq for good measures.

Did MJ do it without Pippen?

Yes wade led Lebron last year. Lol

[xavieronly1]

I am a Bulls fan before anything else, and I was alive and watching every one of Jordan's championships. Jordan is better than Kobe....but not by much.


It's people's attitude with Kobe that bugs me. Jordan punches a teammate in practice and "OMG he's such a competitor!" Kobe gets on teammates and "He's a horrible teammate" There's a huge double standard that exists with these guys.

Like I said, Jordan is better than Kobe, but for the most part people tend to forget about the negative things with older players because they are so far removed from that time.

Maybe in 20 years people will look back and Kobe will be widely accepted as a top 5 player, but who knows

I think so too. I would say the decision is within 10 years. Unless we watch every single NBA played an actual game, it is just hard to give the "best title" to a player based on stat. I mean, John Stockton assist and steal numbers are #1, and yet, people would still pick Magic over Stockton on PG. 10 years later, people would think Chris paul or rondo is just as good as or better than Magic.

[Orangejello727]

I could see your argument if you were arguing Kobe as a top 5 player. The awards are there for a reason and this journalist who vote are follow the league and do it as there job. Obviously sometimes they make mistake and often value winning a little more than they should, but they also get tired of voting for the same person over and over again.
I am sure they didn't rob Kobe of the MVP four times and finals MVP four times. He would that just to be equal to Jordan award wise. Every time Jordan was favored to win the championship his team did it. The Lakers with Kobe? Not so much.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many people who agree with you that are not one the following.
1. Too young to actual see Jordan play.
2. Not diehard Kobe and laker fans.

You hear people try to compare the two on sports show and no one says that Kobe is equal or better to Jordan. Hard to imagine they're all wrong and a couple people's opinion on blowout is correct.

I could see your argument if you were arguing Kobe as a top 5 player. The awards are there for a reason and this journalist who vote are follow the league and do it as there job. Obviously sometimes they make mistake and often value winning a little more than they should,

So they make mistakes and you want me to trust their subjective judgement as a fact? See rings, pts and other hard stats are not voted. They are achieved. A vote is a clear distinction of "Subjective" written all over it. Basically its an opinion. Even more less credible than any stat in my books.


I am sure they didn't rob Kobe of the MVP four times and finals MVP four times. He would that just to be equal to Jordan award wise.

Thats fine. But whos to say Jordan didnt rob someone else who deserved it?

Every time Jordan was favored to win the championship his team did it. The Lakers with Kobe? Not so much

This means absolutely nothing. Its just a prop for MJ fans to use as a cherry topper. Kobe lost in the playoffs. So did MJ. But MJ fans will try and curb that argument by forcing it to fit. So what do they do? They make the criteria fit the agenda. MJ never lost in the Final. Because that fact fits, it becomes the agenda. This is defined as "bottle view" in business terms. If I want to make something look good, I look for how it fits positively towards my argument by cancelling out my competitors that wouldnt fit. Its like me saying Kobe is better than MJ because Kobe put more consecutive 40+ ppgs than MJ did in the past decade. Of course that fits because MJ didnt do it, so its an automatic win for Kobe. And since I claim it to be important it now gives a check mark beside Kobes name!! Such a baseless way of debating apples to oranges.


Heres the down and dirty which keeps to rear its ugly head everytime there is talk about GOAT.

As a kobe fan, I choose to pick Kobe as the GOAT. Keeping that in mind, if you happen to be a MJ fan and claim him to be GOAT? My comment to you is, "I respect that. I dont knock it. Its your opinion and you can have it"

But as an MJ fan, if I choose Kobe as the GOAT, you dont care, you just want to knock it. It cant happen. The world comes to an end if MJ isnt #1.

Thats the difference.

[Orangejello727]

Every team needs a second option, but under no circumstance was Jordan ever viewed as a second option as Kobe clearly was his first three championships.

Thats becasue MJ couldnt win a ring in his early years like Kobe did. Want to know why? Because he didnt have Pippen, Rodman with him. Unlike MJ who could not win without Pippen and Rodman, Kobe was able to win without Shaq. Not once, but twice!!

You fail again trying to compare Kobe in 96,97,98 to MJ in 91,92,93.

[pingbling23]

What you say is to rile up kobe fans.

Ill make it simple..

What Shaq was to Kobe during those championship is exactly what Wade is to Lebron during their championship. A season proven WINNER (wade) showing / leading Lebron to his first taste of a championship. I mean if Shaq did that for Kobe, Wade did it for Lebron.

All I can is, Kobe did it with Shaq. Kobe did it without Shaq. Then did it again without Shaq for good measures.

Did MJ do it without Pippen?

ill give you that wade may have helped lebron due to being a proven winner mentally, but on the physical playing basketball side, you can not say that shaq/kobe is even close to wade/lebron for this comparison. shaq was the main threat and he was getting tripled team, wade not so much. now if wade would have earned mvp and finals mvp and would have clearly lead the team, then i would say you are right, lebron was riding on wades coat tails.

[Orangejello727]

Yes wade led Lebron last year. Lol

How many times has Lebron gone the distance without Wade by his side?

[bdoody42]

So they make mistakes and you want me to trust their subjective judgement as a fact? See rings, pts and other hard stats are not voted. They are achieved. A vote is a clear distinction of "Subjective" written all over it. Basically its an opinion. Even more less credible than any stat in my books.




Thats fine. But whos to say Jordan didnt rob someone else who deserved it?



This means absolutely nothing. Its just a prop for MJ fans to use as a cherry topper. Kobe lost in the playoffs. So did MJ. But MJ fans will try and curb that argument by forcing it to fit. So what do they do? They make the criteria fit the agenda. MJ never lost in the Final. Because that fact fits, it becomes the agenda. This is defined as "bottle view" in business terms. If I want to make something look good, I look for how it fits positively towards my argument by cancelling out my competitors that wouldnt fit. Its like me saying Kobe is better than MJ because Kobe put more consecutive 40+ ppgs than MJ did in the past decade. Of course that fits because MJ didnt do it, so its an automatic win for Kobe. And since I claim it to be important it now gives a check mark beside Kobes name!! Such a baseless way of debating apples to oranges.


Heres the down and dirty which keeps to rear its ugly head everytime there is talk about GOAT.

As a kobe fan, I choose to pick Kobe as the GOAT. Keeping that in mind, if you happen to be a MJ fan and claim him to be GOAT? My comment to you is, "I respect that. I dont knock it. Its your opinion and you can have it"

But as an MJ fan, if I choose Kobe as the GOAT, you dont care, you just want to knock it. It cant happen. The world comes to an end if MJ isnt #1.

Thats the difference.

I am not a Jordan fan. My favorite player is Bird and he is obviously a top ten player and not the goat. I have no horse in this race and I hated when the Celtics use to get abused by Jordan.

It's obvious you're biased. Please tell me a year when Jordan robbed someone of an MVP? Please enlighten me.
So what if Kobe had more 40 point games? The point is?

I know your mind won't be changed due to being biased. That's a pity bias clouds your vision because anyone with blinders on will disagree with you.

[1eyed_jack]

ill give you that wade may have helped lebron due to being a proven winner mentally, but on the physical playing basketball side, you can not say that shaq/kobe is even close to wade/lebron for this comparison. shaq was the main threat and he was getting tripled team, wade not so much. now if wade would have earned mvp and finals mvp and would have clearly lead the team, then i would say you are right, lebron was riding on wades coat tails.

It does hurt Lebron that he had to leave to go to someone elses team to win though, doesn't?

[1eyed_jack]

I am not a Jordan fan. My favorite player is Bird and he is obviously a top ten player and not the goat. I have no horse in this race and I hated when the Celtics use to get abused by Jordan.

It's obvious you're biased. Please tell me a year when Jordan robbed someone of an MVP? Please enlighten me.
So what if Kobe had more 40 point games? The point is?

I know your mind won't be changed due to being biased. That's a pity bias clouds your vision because anyone with blinders on will disagree with you.

In fairness everyone is biased. Impossible not to be!

[Haiku]

Magic Johnson is/was overrated. The whole reason he had success is because he faked having HIV so players wouldn't get near him so he'd have open looks at the basket. Anyone can play good ball when defenders are scared they'll get AIDS.

I say we focus more on this idiotic post!!:D

[pingbling23]

It does hurt Lebron that he had to leave to go to someone elses team to win though, doesn't?

in some peoples eyes, yes, in mine, no. if cleavland could have built a championship team around lebron, we would have never had the decision. for the kobe/lebron debate concerning this. kobe has pretty much had everything on a silver plater, he was traded to the lakers (possibly the best franchise in the nba's history), a team known to have the resources to compete for a title pretty much year in and year out. kobe has had the best coaching and some of the best supporting casts a player could ask for (not to mention possibly the most dominant center the league has seen in his prime). lebron did not have those luxurys and had to jump ship for team success. pretty much everyone agrees with that, most just hate the way he did it. in a perfect world, sure it would have been incredible for lebrons legacy to be able to stay in cleavland and be a powerhouse, but he and everyone knew it was never going to happen in cleavland.

[bdoody42]

In fairness everyone is biased. Impossible not to be!

What do you mean it's impossible? I don't like or dislike either player being discussed. Just funny that he feels Kobe is the GOAT. I just choose Jordan's to state because he is widely viewed by many as the GOAT.

[1eyed_jack]

in some peoples eyes, yes, in mine, no. if cleavland could have built a championship team around lebron, we would have never had the decision. for the kobe/lebron debate concerning this. kobe has pretty much had everything on a silver plater, he was traded to the lakers (possibly the best franchise in the nba's history), a team known to have the resources to compete for a title pretty much year in and year out. kobe has had the best coaching and some of the best supporting casts a player could ask for (not to mention possibly the most dominant center the league has seen in his prime). lebron did not have those luxurys and had to jump ship for team success. pretty much everyone agrees with that, most just hate the way he did it. in a perfect world, sure it would have been incredible for lebrons legacy to be able to stay in cleavland and be a powerhouse, but he and everyone knew it was never going to happen in cleavland.

well....it almost happened in cleveland save for a horrible finals performance by him.

But the Kobe/Lebron argument is non-existant. Until Lebron remains a force in the league for another 6-7 years they aren't even in the same discussion

[hermanotarjeta]

Where would Kobe be without Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, and the refs?

He wouldn't even be close in the discussion of GOAT, even on the flakers.

[Orangejello727]

I am not a Jordan fan. My favorite player is Bird and he is obviously a top ten player and not the goat. I have no horse in this race and I hated when the Celtics use to get abused by Jordan.

It's obvious you're biased. Please tell me a year when Jordan robbed someone of an MVP? Please enlighten me.
So what if Kobe had more 40 point games? The point is?

I know your mind won't be changed due to being biased. That's a pity bias clouds your vision because anyone with blinders on will disagree with you.

It's obvious you're biased. Please tell me a year when Jordan robbed someone of an MVP? Please enlighten me.
So what if Kobe had more 40 point games? The point is?

Very typical. As much as you say "So what if Kobe had more 40 pt games, The point is?" I say the same thing everytime you bring dummy facts like "MJ never lost in the finals" or "MJ has more MVPS voted by a bunch of armchair QBs that never played the game" Circle jerk argument. Again "Bottle view". You only see it so as long as it fits your agenda. I cant argue that. Infact I wont argue that.

[1eyed_jack]

What do you mean it's impossible? I don't like or dislike either player being discussed. Just funny that he feels Kobe is the GOAT. I just choose Jordan's to state because he is widely viewed by many as the GOAT.

I mean that weather you realize it or not you are influenced by certain things. In matters that are non-fact, and opinions, whether we realize it or not there are certain biases at play

[Orangejello727]

Where would Kobe be without Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, and the refs?

He wouldn't even be close in the discussion of GOAT, even on the flakers.

Same place every othe players would be without their team mates!! Nowhere!

MJ without Pippen and Rodman is no winner at all!!

[1eyed_jack]

Where would Kobe be without Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, and the refs?

He wouldn't even be close in the discussion of GOAT, even on the flakers.

but that same argument could be made on Jordan right?

He had the refs on his side, he had hall of fame teammates and a hall of fame coach

[tristan20]

If Kobe was so great why didnt he get the 3 finals MVPs with Shaq? And a very controversial MVP that belonged to Gasol.

And yes greatness is measured by PLAYOFF FINALS MVPS, anyone can win a ring just by being on a great team. But how many can win a FINALS MVP?

As great as he is, Shaq carried that team end of story. To say Shaq is to Kobe what Wade is to Lebron is nuts.

Lebron won the MVP and basically crushed teams without Wade. Heck the Heat are 18-2 without Wade. Gimme Bosh over Wade

Kobe throws his teammates under the bus every time they fail, and that is not the sign of a great leader.

[pingbling23]

well....it almost happened in cleveland save for a horrible finals performance by him.

But the Kobe/Lebron argument is non-existant. Until Lebron remains a force in the league for another 6-7 years they aren't even in the same discussion

exactly, and when kobe had awful games, there were others that would/could step up and lead the team. for the cavs, if lebron didnt dominate, they stood no chance. imo its remarkable how much sucess lebron had in cleavland. i kind of agree with your, lets wait 6-7 years for a discussion. but its hard not to discuss when a player has been in the league 10 seasons and has been dominant in the league.

[tristan20]

exactly, and when kobe had awful games, there were others that would/could step up and lead the team. for the cavs, if lebron didnt dominate, they stood no chance. imo its remarkable how much sucess lebron had in cleavland. i kind of agree with your, lets wait 6-7 years for a discussion. but its hard not to discuss when a player has been in the league 10 seasons and has been dominant in the league.

Kobe has been blessed since Day ONE!

He had the leadership and the team basically handed to him.

What did Lebron have?

Take Lebron put him on the Lakers and take Kobe and put him on the Heat.
Lakers 82 win team? LOL

[1eyed_jack]

Kobe has been blessed since Day ONE!

He had the leadership and the team basically handed to him.

What did Lebron have?

Take Lebron put him on the Lakers and take Kobe and put him on the Heat.
Lakers 82 win team? LOL

The Heat didn't win 82 with Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, why would the Lakers win 82 with Lebbron, Pau and Odom?

Clearly you're trolling

[pingbling23]

The Heat didn't win 82 with Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, why would the Lakers win 82 with Lebbron, Pau and Odom?

Clearly you're trolling

lol, i think he was referring to the "super" team the lakers have right now.

[tristan20]

The Heat didn't win 82 with Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, why would the Lakers win 82 with Lebbron, Pau and Odom?

Clearly you're trolling

Wade isnt the same Wade everyone knows that.

[bdoody42]

I mean that weather you realize it or not you are influenced by certain things. In matters that are non-fact, and opinions, whether we realize it or not there are certain biases at play

I have tired to think of one way I would be biased and I can't find one.

[1eyed_jack]

lol, i think he was referring to the "super" team the lakers have right now.

So Lebron could win 82 with Howard, Chris Duhon, Antawn Jamison and World Peace???

[Orangejello727]

Kobe has been blessed since Day ONE!

He had the leadership and the team basically handed to him.

What did Lebron have?

Take Lebron put him on the Lakers and take Kobe and put him on the Heat.
Lakers 82 win team? LOL

Any team that was blessed ended up winning it. You telling me the Bulls teams that won those years wasnt blessed? MJ, Rodman, Pippen? Or the Heat? Bosh, Wade, Lebron?

Stack them up..

MJ, Pippen, Rodman
Kobe, Shaq, *Insert who ever you want here*
Kobe, Paul Gasol, Meta world peace 'woot woot!!"
Lebron, Bosh, Wade

You telling me Kobe was the only one blessed with talent when he won? LOL

[pingbling23]

So Lebron could win 82 with Howard, Chris Duhon, Antawn Jamison and World Peace???

no way jose

[Orangejello727]

Wade isnt the same Wade everyone knows that.

And Pau isnt the same Pau!! everyone knows that!!

[bdoody42]

Thats becasue MJ couldnt win a ring in his early years like Kobe did. Want to know why? Because he didnt have Pippen, Rodman with him. Unlike MJ who could not win without Pippen and Rodman, Kobe was able to win without Shaq. Not once, but twice!!

You fail again trying to compare Kobe in 96,97,98 to MJ in 91,92,93.

I didn't try to compare those years... Not sure where that came from. Kobe won with Pau and Bynum. That is about the same wouldn't you say?

[1eyed_jack]

I didn't try to compare those years... Not sure where that came from. Kobe won with Pau and Bynum. That is about the same wouldn't you say?

Not really

[bdoody42]

Very typical. As much as you say "So what if Kobe had more 40 pt games, The point is?" I say the same thing everytime you bring dummy facts like "MJ never lost in the finals" or "MJ has more MVPS voted by a bunch of armchair QBs that never played the game" Circle jerk argument. Again "Bottle view". You only see it so as long as it fits your agenda. I cant argue that. Infact I wont argue that.

Yes these writes must know anything they are talking about. The probably don't even watch games lol. I'm sure they watch the latest how I meet your mother episode. These people are experts and that why they choose the MVP and not you and me. Even if they mess up once every ten years Kobe isn't even close to Jordan. Your bias. That's all.

There is a reason they have awards,stats and championships and based on those your argument holds very little validity.

[bdoody42]

Not really

How isn't it? Pau was an allstar and Bynum is one of the top centers. The years they won Bynum was for the most part health and playing at a high level.

[pingbling23]

And Pau isnt the same Pau!! everyone knows that!!

and thats why the lakers have been struggling the past few years, wade isnt the same wade and miami have been in the finals the past 2 years with 1 title.

[pingbling23]

i just wanted to say, so far im loving the debate on this thread, its remained pretty clean imo, even though its went off topic, stuff like this is why i love coming on this site. while i dont agree with everyones opinions, its fun discussing and seeing other peoples view pionts on stuff.

[bdoody42]

Very true. Pretty respectful for the most part. Hope it says that way. Just wish people weren't so bias to there favorite players.

i just wanted to say, so far im loving the debate on this thread, its remained pretty clean imo, even though its went off topic, stuff like this is why i love coming on this site. while i dont agree with everyones opinions, its fun discussing and seeing other peoples view pionts on stuff.

[Orangejello727]

I didn't try to compare those years... Not sure where that came from. Kobe won with Pau and Bynum. That is about the same wouldn't you say?

Here is what you said..

Originally Posted by bdoody42
Every team needs a second option, but under no circumstance was Jordan ever viewed as a second option as Kobe clearly was his first three championships.

When was Kobe a 2nd option? You consider him to be 2nd option to shaq. But dont sit here and tell me that Kobe was a 2nd option to Pau Gasol. Thats just pushing it!!

The only time Ill even give you the 2nd option is when Kobe was a rookie playing with Shaq.

[bdoody42]

Here is what you said..



When was Kobe a 2nd option? You consider him to be 2nd option to shaq. But dont sit here and tell me that Kobe was a 2nd option to Pau Gasol. Thats just pushing it!!

The only time Ill even give you the 2nd option is when Kobe was a rookie playing with Shaq.

I never said Kobe was second option to Pau... Where did I say that? His first three titles he was second fiddle to Shaq. Last two he was the MVP. I think you have my confused with what Tristan wrote.

[1eyed_jack]

How isn't it? Pau was an allstar and Bynum is one of the top centers. The years they won Bynum was for the most part health and playing at a high level.

I don't know, I just fail to see how you can compare

Pau Gasol
Andrew Bynum
Lamar Odom
Derek Fisher
Trevor Ariza
Sasha Vujacic

to

Toni Kukoc
Scottie Pippen
Ron harper
Dennis Rodman
Luc Longley
Steve Kerr


But maybe it's just me

[Orangejello727]

and thats why the lakers have been struggling the past few years, wade isnt the same wade and miami have been in the finals the past 2 years with 1 title.

Miami has been in the finals with Lebron, Wade and Bosh. Dont forget the third tandem!!

Lakers have been struggling because guys like Pau and Bynum were not dependable in my opinion.

[hermanotarjeta]

Same place every othe players would be without their team mates!! Nowhere!

MJ without Pippen and Rodman is no winner at all!!

without two lucky SINGLE shots in the playoffs, Kobe has 2 less rings.

All the Kobe defenders are all too young to remember bird, magic, dr. J, and even Jordan.

[1eyed_jack]

without two lucky SINGLE shots in the playoffs, Kobe has 2 less rings.

All the Kobe defenders are all too young to remember bird, magic, dr. J, and even Jordan.

And a lot of the Bird, Magic, Dr. J people are too stuck in their day to give credit to newer players who are better

[hermanotarjeta]

but that same argument could be made on Jordan right?

He had the refs on his side, he had hall of fame teammates and a hall of fame coach

One lucky shot by Horry. If he missed, Lakers don't go to the finals.

One lucky shot by Fisher. If he missed, Lakers don't go to the finals.

I can't recall a single bulls player shot outside of Jordan that saved them from playoff elimination.

[pingbling23]

if memory serves me correcty, kobe was the second option for his first 3 titles. then he attempted to be first option on the team while shaq was still there, they started losing, and shaq was pretty much forced off the team because he was complaining that he wasnt the go to guy and thats why they were losing. and kobe being younger and the future for the lakers, they booted shaq. what a bad move, shaq still had a few good years left in him. if the team chemistry would have been able to stay together, they would have a few more titles imo.

[bdoody42]

Miami has been in the finals with Lebron, Wade and Bosh. Dont forget the third tandem!!

Lakers have been struggling because guys like Pau and Bynum were not dependable in my opinion.

They were fine the two years they won and Bynum has his best season last year.
So in regards to Bynum I disagree. With Gasol I think he has dropped off some, but during the two championships he was a very strong second option.

No player can win alone that's for sure. Dirk and the Mavericks and back in 04 I think when the Pistons won is basically they only two times a team with one star won the title in the last ten years. Every player has needed help in history.

[Orangejello727]

Every team needs a second option, but under no circumstance was Jordan ever viewed as a second option as Kobe clearly was his first three championships.

This was the post you made. You said Kobe clearly was the 2nd option in his first 3 championship? First 3 he was a freshman in the league.

I asked how you can compare a 2nd option kobe (96,97,98) to a MJ in (91,92,93)???

If you want to compare Kobe in his last 2 rings to MJ and his prime rings, sure, Ill compare the two. In both cases they were #1 options!!

[1eyed_jack]

One lucky shot by Horry. If he missed, Lakers don't go to the finals.

One lucky shot by Fisher. If he missed, Lakers don't go to the finals.

I can't recall a single bulls player shot outside of Jordan that saved them from playoff elimination.

to win the finals at many points in the season it comes down to a fortunate bounce or a lucky shot. The Lakers came at the last second, but that's not to say the Bulls never had those breaks. Maybe they came with 2 minutes left in a game instead of 2 seconds, but every team that wins tends to get those breaks

[Orangejello727]

without two lucky SINGLE shots in the playoffs, Kobe has 2 less rings.

All the Kobe defenders are all too young to remember bird, magic, dr. J, and even Jordan.

Just like all the MJ idolizers are too young to remember Kareem, Wilt and Rusell. Or too old to understand Kobe, Lebron and Durant!!

[bdoody42]

This was the post you made. You said Kobe clearly was the 2nd option in his first 3 championship? First 3 he was a freshman in the league.

I asked how you can compare a 2nd option kobe (96,97,98) to a MJ in (91,92,93)???

If you want to compare Kobe in his last 2 rings to MJ and his prime rings, sure, Ill compare the two. In both cases they were #1 options!!

We are debating the years the teams won titles. Kobe didn't win titles in 96,97 or 98.... How is the revelant? He won titles in 00,01,02..... I don't think he can be a "freshmen" for three years in the NBA. Lol. I believe it is called a rookie.

Seems like a failed post.

[Orangejello727]

if memory serves me correcty, kobe was the second option for his first 3 titles. then he attempted to be first option on the team while shaq was still there, they started losing, and shaq was pretty much forced off the team because he was complaining that he wasnt the go to guy and thats why they were losing. and kobe being younger and the future for the lakers, they booted shaq. what a bad move, shaq still had a few good years left in him. if the team chemistry would have been able to stay together, they would have a few more titles imo.

Shaqs problems were always with Buss. Not with kobe!! If they stayed together without butting heads as to whos team it was (Both kobe and Shaq are ego maniacs just like every top franchise player except CP3 lol), Im willing to bet they would have surpassed the 6 ring bulls run

[Orangejello727]

We are debating the years the teams won titles. Kobe didn't win titles in 96,97 or 98.... How is the revelant? He won titles in 00,01,02..... I don't think he can be a "freshmen" for three years in the NBA. Lol. I believe it is called a rookie.

Seems like a failed post.

Ok, So a rookie who was benched his first 2 yrs? Comparing that to a MJ in his prime? Still dont get it.

Why dont you compare when they were #1 options. Its not kobes fault he was young and Shaq was the go to guy. How do you fault Kobe for that? Talk about pressing the situation by digging!!

[tristan20]

Shaq left and carried the rings with him, it just shows who was the main man. If Shaq remained on the lakers, who knows how many rings they would have won.

[murrke03]

How many times has Lebron gone the distance without Wade by his side?

Lol who won MVP?

[bdoody42]

Ok, So a rookie who was benched his first 2 yrs? Comparing that to a MJ in his prime? Still dont get it.

Why dont you compare when they were #1 options. Its not kobes fault he was young and Shaq was the go to guy. How do you fault Kobe for that? Talk about pressing the situation by digging!!

Hey buddy I just replied to your post. He was not benched the first two years. Like many players he didn't start as a stud.
I don't see how I am digging.... You're making things up lol.
He wasn't the first option because he wasn't good enough at that time. That's what it comes down to. Obviously Phil Jackson is a pretty good coach and he felt Shaq was the number one option and that obviously worked for those three championships. Whyndonyou want to compare Kobe's two championships when he was a number one option? He did it twice while Jordan did it six times. Seems like you're starting to make an argument against yourself.

[murrke03]

How can a guy that had to ride the coat tails of one of the most dominate ever be the goat?

And Tristan can you post a link to that website comparing Lebron and Kobe stats? I can't find it.

[bdoody42]

Lol who won MVP?

How many times has wade won without Haslem? Lol.

[bdoody42]

How can a guy that had to ride the coat tails of one of the most dominate ever be the goat?

And Tristan can you post a link to that website comparing Lebron and Kobe stats? I can't find it.

The only problem in arguing Lebrons greatness is that the sample size isn't big enough yet. Also the team accomplishments need to continue.

[tristan20]

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/06/kobe-bryant-vs-lebron-james-comparison-updated-in-2012/

Not sure whats going on with the site now though seems slow

[Orangejello727]

Hey buddy I just replied to your post. He was not benched the first two years. Like many players he didn't start as a stud.
I don't see how I am digging.... You're making things up lol.
He wasn't the first option because he wasn't good enough at that time. That's what it comes down to. Obviously Phil Jackson is a pretty good coach and he felt Shaq was the number one option and that obviously worked for those three championships. Whyndonyou want to compare Kobe's two championships when he was a number one option? He did it twice while Jordan did it six times. Seems like you're starting to make an argument against yourself.

Because you are selectively choosing to compare a situation where MJ had the advantage. How is that any of Kobes fault that he didnt start and had to wait to be the #1 option? MJ won nothing in his first 7 yrs in the league. Its like me trying to ask you how come it took MJ 7 yrs and wait till Pippen came to win a ring? I dont fault MJ for not winning in his early years with the Bulls. Why do you fault Kobe for being traded to a team early in his career that had Shaq as the #1 option? Its meaningless.

I dont play the what if game by asking what could have happend if Shaq wasnt there. Just like I dont play the game by wondering if MJ would have won more if Pippen had come to his team earlier. There is no substance in it at all. In order to compare apples to apples, you have to weigh the factors as well. You cant just cherry pick years that fit your theory.

Basketball, legendary status and recognition is not a race. Its determined of the career of a player. Its the journey and path. Nothing to do with "in these years" or "being 2nd option" because someone with more experience and tenue is front of you. I would assume if MJ came into the league with a team mate of the caliber of Shaq on his team, he would have taken a back seat to a franchise player on the team as well. So throw out that scenario altogether.

The facts are clear. These two players have close enough stats to be compared. If you wish to add any subjective criterias into the equations, by all means go ahead. Just treat them as opinions and not what ifs and cherry picks lines.

[Orangejello727]

How can a guy that had to ride the coat tails of one of the most dominate ever be the goat?

And Tristan can you post a link to that website comparing Lebron and Kobe stats? I can't find it.

Its pretty simple when you take a players over all career accomplishment into factor. Are you suggesting that Kobe was riding the coat tail of Shaq when he won 2 more rings without him? lol

[bdoody42]

Because you are selectively choosing to compare a situation where MJ had the advantage. How is that any of Kobes fault that he didnt start and had to wait to be the #1 option? MJ won nothing in his first 7 yrs in the league. Its like me trying to ask you how come it took MJ 7 yrs and wait till Pippen came to win a ring? I dont fault MJ for not winning in his early years with the Bulls. Why do you fault Kobe for being traded to a team early in his career that had Shaq as the #1 option? Its meaningless.

I dont play the what if game by asking what could have happend if Shaq wasnt there. Just like I dont play the game by wondering if MJ would have won more if Pippen had come to his team earlier. There is no substance in it at all. In order to compare apples to apples, you have to weigh the factors as well. You cant just cherry pick years that fit your theory.

Basketball, legendary status and recognition is not a race. Its determined of the career of a player. Its the journey and path. Nothing to do with "in these years" or "being 2nd option" because someone with more experience and tenue is front of you. I would assume if MJ came into the league with a team mate of the caliber of Shaq on his team, he would have taken a back seat to a franchise player on the team as well. So throw out that scenario altogether.

The facts are clear. These two players have close enough stats to be compared. If you wish to add any subjective criterias into the equations, by all means go ahead. Just treat them as opinions and not what ifs and cherry picks lines.

You're right they can be compared and will be until the end of time, but the thing your wrong about is that Kobe did choose to go into the NBA after high school and not attend college. If he had went to college he would have probably been a star from day one in the NBA.
It was his fault he was traded. He demanded it. LOL.

You're just choosing which aspects of recognition to use to help your argument.
Stats say that Steve Nash shot a higher percentage than Steve Nash for his career from the field. Does that mean Shaq was a better shooter? You're smart enough to answer that.

You're ignoring all the awards Jordan has received, which crushes Kobe. Seems odd to ignore these things that are used to judge players .

I treat opinions like I see them. If I feel they are legit I wouldn't argue. Like most experts I think that you're debating something you have no chance of winning at this point unless you're with a dumb of Kobe and laker lovers.

Don't just use the "stats" argument but ignore the opinions of experts, other great players, and other factors that come into play.

[bdoody42]

Its pretty simple when you take a players over all career accomplishment into factor. Are you suggesting that Kobe was riding the coat tail of Shaq when he won 2 more rings without him? lol

Here are two honest questions. Please answer honestly.
1. How old are you?
2. Who in your mind is the best player right now in the NBA?

[pac213up]

The facts are clear. These two players have close enough stats to be compared. If you wish to add any subjective criterias into the equations, by all means go ahead. Just treat them as opinions and not what ifs and cherry picks lines.

Not really all that close IMO at least. Jordan avg more pts more efficiently, more rebounds, more assists, more steals, ect - and that is before the bulk of Kobe's decline years will be factored in. Also Jordan put up better offensive numbers in an era where defenders were allowed to defend with hand checks, which obviously had affected guard play tremendously.

[bdoody42]

Exactly but the bias of some people is pretty bad and they won't admit when there opinion is obvious one that doesn't hold much merit.

Not really all that close IMO at least. Jordan avg more pts more efficiently, more rebounds, more assists, more steals, ect - and that is before the bulk of Kobe's decline years will be factored in. Also Jordan put up better offensive numbers in an era where defenders were allowed to defend with hand checks, which obviously had affected guard play tremendously.

[bdoody42]

Here are the stats.......

Michael Jordan Stats - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1035/michael-jordan)

Kobe Bryant Stats - Los Angeles Lakers - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/110/kobe-bryant)

[Orangejello727]

Here are two honest questions. Please answer honestly.
1. How old are you?
2. Who in your mind is the best player right now in the NBA?


Why does age matter? Ill tell you that I watch Magic, Bird, MJ, Kobe all in their primes.

2. Right now? Lebron technically. But then again im comparing an old season vet in Kobe to a beast of a Lebron that is still young and prime!!

[scorpion1157]

All you have to do ask Jordan.....he says that Bryant is the closest player
To be the greatest of all time (top 5) And i believe that too

[pac213up]

Here are the stats.......

Michael Jordan Stats - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1035/michael-jordan)

Kobe Bryant Stats - Los Angeles Lakers - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/110/kobe-bryant)

Player Comparison Finder | Basketball-Reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jordami01&y1=2003&p2=bryanko01&y2=2013)

[Orangejello727]

Not really all that close IMO at least. Jordan avg more pts more efficiently, more rebounds, more assists, more steals, ect - and that is before the bulk of Kobe's decline years will be factored in. Also Jordan put up better offensive numbers in an era where defenders were allowed to defend with hand checks, which obviously had affected guard play tremendously.

Exactly but the bias of some people is pretty bad and they won't admit when there opinion is obvious one that doesn't hold much merit.

Ok, Let me get this straight.. You are telling me that who ever averages better Pts, Rebounds, steals and assists shoud determine the GOAT?

Give me all the attributes a player must be #1 in to achieve GOAT?

[pac213up]

Ok, Let me get this straight.. You are telling me that who ever averages better Pts, Rebounds, steals and assists shoud determine the GOAT?

Not completely. I made no determination of who was the GOAT. I was responding to you saying the stats are close enough. I looked at the stats....they are not that close. Jordan has MUCH better stats, especially given the other points I made. How you or anyone else wants to factor that together with winning, rings, intangibles, ect to determine who is the GOAT is up to you.

[bdoody42]

Ok, Let me get this straight.. You are telling me that who ever averages better Pts, Rebounds, steals and assists shoud determine the GOAT?

Give me all the attributes a player must be #1 in to achieve GOAT?

You said stats and numbers can't be argued.... That's why I brought it up. Seems like every time someone brings something against you to change your argument.

I said before its a combination of championships, the role you play on those championships, statistics, expert opinions, player opinions and I am sure I forgot something else.

Give me your reasons to why Kobe is Bette than Jordan. Please use facts.

So I will ask again.
1. How old are you?
2. Wo do you think is the best player right now in the NBA?

[Orangejello727]

You're right they can be compared and will be until the end of time, but the thing your wrong about is that Kobe did choose to go into the NBA after high school and not attend college. If he had went to college he would have probably been a star from day one in the NBA.
It was his fault he was traded. He demanded it. LOL.

You're just choosing which aspects of recognition to use to help your argument.
Stats say that Steve Nash shot a higher percentage than Steve Nash for his career from the field. Does that mean Shaq was a better shooter? You're smart enough to answer that.

You're ignoring all the awards Jordan has received, which crushes Kobe. Seems odd to ignore these things that are used to judge players .

I treat opinions like I see them. If I feel they are legit I wouldn't argue. Like most experts I think that you're debating something you have no chance of winning at this point unless you're with a dumb of Kobe and laker lovers.

Don't just use the "stats" argument but ignore the opinions of experts, other great players, and other factors that come into play.

Hey man, If you want to stack awards up to to determine the GOAT of all time, I agree MJ beats Kobe. But then other players beat MJ.

lets not ignore awards..

Who has the most (over a career)
MVPs?
All star games?
Scoring titles?
Championship rings?
Best average of pts, ast, reb

Keeping in mind that the player determines various ones while others are determined by a vote!!!

[bdoody42]

Excuse me me you did tell kinda answer my questions. Lol

[bdoody42]

Hey man, If you want to stack awards up to to determine the GOAT of all time, I agree MJ beats Kobe. But then other players beat MJ.

lets not ignore awards..

Who has the most (over a career)
MVPs?
All star games?
Scoring titles?
Championship rings?
Best average of pts, ast, reb

Keeping in mind that the player determines various ones while others are determined by a vote!!!

Thanks for making my case. Just wish you could be unbiased and realize what that your opinion doesn't hold much merit.

[Orangejello727]

You said stats and numbers can't be argued.... That's why I brought it up. Seems like every time someone brings something against you to change your argument.

I said before its a combination of championships, the role you play on those championships, statistics, expert opinions, player opinions and I am sure I forgot something else.

Give me your reasons to why Kobe is Bette than Jordan. Please use facts.

So I will ask again.
1. How old are you?
2. Wo do you think is the best player right now in the NBA?


I didnt change anything.

Base it on stats and MJ was never #1 on any list. He isnt #1 on pts, mvps, rings, ASG, whatever else you want. Just like Kobe isnt. Yet you knock kobe for it but give MJ the pass for not being #1 in a catagory?

All those combinations you stated above are subjective matters. Its a matter of opinion on who "Led a team", "Tried harder", "Showed more effort", "Expert Opinion". Exactly what my first post in this thread said. After you set aside all the compariables the rest is all upto an opinion to determine your GOAT.

There is no determining the GOAT without opinions.

To answer your question truthfully, By hard facts and stats, Kobe does not beat MJ. Just as MJ does not beat other players by the same facts and stats. This is the whole argument on determining a player of GOAT out of era, different playing standards and competition along with circumstances makes it impossible. Its only left up to a subjective opinioni there after. ...Recycle back to the first post I made!!

[Orangejello727]

Thanks for making my case. Just wish you could be unbiased and realize what that your opinion doesn't hold much merit.

And yours does? Thats MJ is the GOAT because he is #1 in all those catagories? LOL

[tristan20]

And yours does? Thats MJ is the GOAT because he is #1 in all those catagories? LOL

When comparing modern day players Count FINALS MVPs, end of story.

Even though Bill Russell would probably have more, he's not in this discussion hehe:)!

[Orangejello727]

I havent got this on hand but anyone have the rankings for:

#1 ranked in the following criterias..

Most MVPs
Most Finals MVP (Just for Tristan)
Most pts scored
Most ASG
Most Championship rings
Most Scoring Titles?
Best Career AVG

Anything else I should be adding to the hard fact list to determine GOAT time award wise?

[bdoody42]

And yours does? Thats MJ is the GOAT because he is #1 in all those catagories? LOL

I argued the Kobe isn't the greatest of all time and took Jordan as an example of someone who is obviously ahead of him. I never made an argument for who I think is the best. This thread started as a Kobe is the best ever thread.
Your opinion of saying Kobe worked harder or was more dedicated than anyone else is laughable. How do you prove this? Did you watch every player workout in the summer? How do you judge this? This is your bias in a player.

Jordan doesn't lead in every category. There are many different types of players who will lead in different categories. I choose Kobe and Jordan because they a the close in playing style and position.

When 95% of the world disagrees with something it usually means something is wrong.

[bdoody42]

And yours does? Thats MJ is the GOAT because he is #1 in all those catagories? LOL

I am not bias toward Jordan as I said before. All my favorite players are Celtics such as Bird,Pierce, and Rondo. Obviously I would not debate them for best player ever.

[bdoody42]

I havent got this on hand but anyone have the rankings for:

#1 ranked in the following criterias..

Most MVPs
Most Finals MVP (Just for Tristan)
Most pts scored
Most ASG
Most Championship rings
Most Scoring Titles?
Best Career AVG

Anything else I should be adding to the hard fact list to determine GOAT time award wise?

Eliminating bias :)

[Orangejello727]

Eliminating bias :)

But you yourself said awards count. So lets rank them based on awards and see who tops out at #1

[bdoody42]

But you yourself said awards count. So lets rank them based on awards and see who tops out at #1

I said they matter I didn't say they were everything. In a previous post I mentioned the following things matter. Stats, championships, the roles players played on those championship, expert opinions, and player opinions.

Don't try to change what I write. It makes you appear as if your narrow minded.
I believe that the only thing Kobe passes Jordan on that list that you posted above was all star games and they maybe very close. I don't have that stat on hand.

[WillC]

Magic Johnson led the Lakers to 9 NBA Finals and won 5 championships.

Kobe Bryant played in 7 NBA Finals and won 5 championships.

I'd take Magic's career over Kobe's and, in a vacuum (i.e. ignoring teammates, situation, etc), I'd take Magic over Kobe. He had made his teammates better, no matter who they were. Kobe is phenomenal, but he's no Magic Johnson.

Kareem's best years came in Milwaukee while Wilt's best years were in Philadelphia/San Francisco, so I actually think Jerry West and Elgin Baylor are the 3rd and 4th best Lakers ever when you look at each players entire Lakers career.

If we're counting Minneapolis, then I'd rank Mikan right up there too.

[Orangejello727]

Oh so, subjective opinions matter. Like role players, Expert Opinions and player opinions? Its not all about stats and hardware?

So why do you discount Kobe as GOAT because he doesnt have as much hardware as MJ?

I know exaclty what you are doing. You are discrediting Kobe because he doesnt have enough. But if that same principle were to be applied to MJ, it only matters but isnt everything? Theres the double standard I was talking about right from the beginning.

THis is the jist of the thread...

If MJ is #1 in any catagory, it must count towards GOAT
If MJ is not #1 in any catagry, you must take it with a grain of salt.

But this does apply "Equally" by standards to all other players.

Honestly, we have circled right back to my first post. Its a matter of opinion!!

[sthoemke]

Didn't Shaq always score more than Kobe when they played together?

[Orangejello727]

Didn't Shaq always score more than Kobe when they played together?

He sure did! When you are the #1 option and the franchise player at the time, it tends to happen!!

[bdoody42]

Oh so, subjective opinions matter. Like role players, Expert Opinions and player opinions? Its not all about stats and hardware?

So why do you discount Kobe as GOAT because he doesnt have as much hardware as MJ?

I know exaclty what you are doing. You are discrediting Kobe because he doesnt have enough. But if that same principle were to be applied to MJ, it only matters but isnt everything? Theres the double standard I was talking about right from the beginning.

THis is the jist of the thread...

If MJ is #1 in any catagory, it must count towards GOAT
If MJ is not #1 in any catagry, you must take it with a grain of salt.

But this does apply "Equally" by standards to all other players.

Honestly, we have circled right back to my first post. Its a matter of opinion!!

You can't make an argument because yours is just your opinion without any backing basically. You're rights its an opinion and one basically any non laker and Kobe lover disagrees with. :)!

[tristan20]

Magic is the best Laker ever IMO

[bdoody42]

Magic is the best Laker ever IMO

It's is really close between Kobe and Magic. It comes down to if you like a guy who scores, or do you like a guy who passes and brings out the best in his teammates.
Kareem and Wilt weren't always and did some of there work on other teams. Especially Wilt.

I wonder how we would view West and Baylor if more people would have seen them play live.

[WillC]

I wonder how we would view West and Baylor if more people would have seen them play live.

Spend hours and hours and hours reading about them and researching every video clip of their game that you can possibly get your hands on.

That's what I do :)

[blastman]

My dad watched Wilt and Jordan play and he still says Wilt it the GOAT.

Kobe will probably be top 5, but not THE GOAT.

[tristan20]

Kobe 5 rings in 17 years
Magic 5 rings in 13 years

Magic probably would have had many more rings if he didn't retire.

Fact is, Kobe shoots less, Lakers win. Its a no brainer.

[bdoody42]

My dad watched Wilt and Jordan play and he still says Wilt it the GOAT.

Kobe will probably be top 5, but not THE GOAT.

This was my whole point he right around number 5, but orangejello refuses to accept that he is anything less than the best :)

[dasiegel]

I was born in 1981, and I'm sure some of the people on this forum are way younger than me... yet they still have the opinions about how Bill Russell or Wilt or Oscar were the best players ever. Or in this hypethical, how Kareem or Jerry West or Magic were.

I saw Magic and Kareem play live although I was much younger and I have seen more basketball highlights and documentaries than I believe is healthy and I can safely say that Kobe Bryant is the best Laker I have ever seen.

I'll go one step further and say besides Jordan (also saw him live numerous times and I'm a Knick fan so I knew him too well) Kobe is the best player I've ever seen.

I don't really like Kobe, he's cocky and standoffish to the media. He's been in some usual off court drama... but when he is on the court, he gives it his all. He's a court leader, he can get his own shot off, he can dominate a game offensively and do a great job defensively. He's not as good at getting to the hole as Jordan was but he has a better jumper, better at the line, better 3s and still has a killer instinct nobody in the league has.

Furthermore, he has 5 rings for those who feel you must have rings to be in the discussion, same Magic, same as Kareem. He'll likely pass Kareem if he feels like it similar to the way Karl Malone could've, he scored 81 points in a game, has all the individual accolades etc.

Bottom line is when Jordan played people said he wans't the best ever, it was Magic and Bird or Kareem and Wilt. Now its pretty much a consensus that its Jordan. After Kobe is gone from the game, people will put him in his rightful place, likable or not its #2.

[dasiegel]

Kobe 5 rings in 17 years
Magic 5 rings in 13 years

Magic probably would have had many more rings if he didn't retire.

Fact is, Kobe shoots less, Lakers win. Its a no brainer.

Those teams were much stronger all around than LA was with Kobe in the mid 90s... Magic came into a team that won the title his rookie year.

[MikeMamba]

I never saw Kareem, never saw Magic, never really saw Jordan.
I was born in 92' so I didn't really get to see Jordan's prime.
Only thing I can base it off on is stats.
I saw Kobe's whole career pretty much and really, it is amazing to watch such a great player. Some of us take it for granted, he is 34 and still playing at a high level.

Is he the GOAT Laker? idk, I think it is between Magic and Kobe. Magic has been saying Kobe is the GOAT Laker for a couple seasons now... But who knows, Kobe's career isn't over, judging from this season he might still have 2-3 more seasons in him after this one. He can still win titles, I doubt he will win a season MVP with Lebron and Durant playing. But titles is all I care, I just want the Lakers to pass the Celtics :)! lol

[WillC]

My dad watched Wilt and Jordan play and he still says Wilt it the GOAT.

Kobe will probably be top 5, but not THE GOAT.

I agree.

A select few players can claim to be the best ever with good reason:

- Bill Russell: Most rings
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Most career points, most MVPs
- Michael Jordan: Highest career PPG, most Finals MVPs, highest MVP share
- Wilt Chamberlain: Highest single-season and single-game PPG and RPG

Kobe Bryant? Not so much.

The top 4 is set in stone, in my opinion (in no particular order): Russell, Wilt, Kareem and Jordan.

After that, I'd take Magic and Bird.

Then it's hard to separate Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Robertson.

[tristan20]

Those teams were much stronger all around than LA was with Kobe in the mid 90s... Magic came into a team that won the title his rookie year.

Selected by the Los Angeles Lakers with the No. 1 overall pick in the 1979 NBA Draft, Johnson quickly became one of the best point guards in the league. The former Michigan State star averaged 18 points, 7.7 rebounds, and 7.3 assists per game.

Filling in for the injured Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Johnson posted 42 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists in Game 6 of the 1980 NBA Finals as the Lakers defeated the Philadelphia 76ers for the title. Magic was named Finals MVP.

[WillC]

Bottom line is when Jordan played people said he wans't the best ever, it was Magic and Bird or Kareem and Wilt.

That's simply not true.

I am the same age as you and I vividly recall Jordan being generally regarded as the greatest of all time during his playing career.

Meanwhile, I have plenty of books (literally a library full of basketball books), many of them written before Jordan's 1998 retirement, which clearly regard him as the greatest ever.

[MikeMamba]

Kobe 5 rings in 17 years
Magic 5 rings in 13 years

Magic probably would have had many more rings if he didn't retire.

Fact is, Kobe shoots less, Lakers win. Its a no brainer.

Grant Hill could have been a GOAT IF he didn't get injured

Jordan could have had more titles IF he didn't retire early

The Lakers could have won in 2008 IF Bynum was healthy

Kobe would have had more MVP's IF Nash Suns didn't have good records.

Lebron would have more titles right now IF he would have played better in '07 and 11'

Wade would have no titles IF he didn't get to the FT line 15-17 times a game

Shaq and Kobe would have had more titles IF they got along.

[bdoody42]

Seems like OP opinions is in the extremely small minority. He claims he is the GOAT and some people can't even say he is the GOAT of the lakers. Lol

[WillC]

Grant Hill could have been a GOAT IF he didn't get injured

Jordan could have had more titles IF he didn't retire early

The Lakers could have won in 2008 IF Bynum was healthy

Kobe would have had more MVP's IF Nash Suns didn't have good records.

Lebron would have more titles right now IF he would have played better in '07 and 11'

Wade would have no titles IF he didn't get to the FT line 15-17 times a game

Shaq and Kobe would have had more titles IF they got along.

You're missing Tristan's point; Magic has the same number of championships as Kobe despite playing less seasons. No 'ifs' or 'buts'. It's as simple as that. Magic did the same as Kobe but in less years.

[bdoody42]

Grant Hill could have been a GOAT IF he didn't get injured

Jordan could have had more titles IF he didn't retire early

The Lakers could have won in 2008 IF Bynum was healthy

Kobe would have had more MVP's IF Nash Suns didn't have good records.

Lebron would have more titles right now IF he would have played better in '07 and 11'

Wade would have no titles IF he didn't get to the FT line 15-17 times a game

Shaq and Kobe would have had more titles IF they got along.

The bias continues from Kobe fans. They don't see the world as it actually is :)

[MikeMamba]

You're missing Tristan's point; Magic has the same number of championships as Kobe despite playing less seasons. No 'ifs' or 'buts'. It's as simple as that. Magic did the same as Kobe but in less years.

He was 31-32 when he retired. The NBA was entering the Jordan era, if it wasn't for HIV he would have continued to play for another 4-6 seasons. I highly doubt he would have won a title in the Jordan era. The Lakers did not have the pieces, who knows what could have happened regarding trades or whatever but it was Jordan's decade.
So IF Magic did not have HIV, he would have as many seasons as Kobe with the same amount of titles.

[WillC]

He was 31-32 when he retired. The NBA was entering the Jordan era, if it wasn't for HIV he would have continued to play for another 4-6 seasons. I highly doubt he would have won a title in the Jordan era. The Lakers did not have the pieces, who knows what could have happened regarding trades or whatever but it was Jordan's decade.
So IF Magic did not have HIV, he would have as many seasons as Kobe with the same amount of titles.

Grant Hill could have been a GOAT IF he didn't get injured

Jordan could have had more titles IF he didn't retire early

The Lakers could have won in 2008 IF Bynum was healthy

Kobe would have had more MVP's IF Nash Suns didn't have good records.

Lebron would have more titles right now IF he would have played better in '07 and 11'

Wade would have no titles IF he didn't get to the FT line 15-17 times a game

Shaq and Kobe would have had more titles IF they got along.

;)

[MikeMamba]

Grant Hill could have been a GOAT IF he didn't get injured

Jordan could have had more titles IF he didn't retire early

The Lakers could have won in 2008 IF Bynum was healthy

Kobe would have had more MVP's IF Nash Suns didn't have good records.

Lebron would have more titles right now IF he would have played better in '07 and 11'

Wade would have no titles IF he didn't get to the FT line 15-17 times a game

Shaq and Kobe would have had more titles IF they got along.

;)

I'm just playing the IF game now, since everyone is doing the same.
How about Russell? He was a big and played against players smaller then him and never shot over 50%
IF he played in today's NBA, he would not have 11 titles and would not be a HOF'er.

[WillC]

MikeMamba, you're arguing yourself into a corner.

Nobody is playing the 'if' game. It's a fact that Magic Johnson won as many titles as Kobe but in less seasons.

Regarding Russell, I have to correct you on something. He did not play against smaller centers. Russell's career was from 1957 to 1969. If you take the middle-season (1963) as a proxy, here are the starting centers in the NBA:

- Boston Celtics: Bill Russell (6'9")
- Syracuse Nationals: Red Kerr (6'9")
- Cincinnati Royals: Wayne Embry (6'8")
- New York Knicks: Willie Naulls (6'6")
- Los Angeles Lakers: Leroy Ellis (6'10")
- St. Louis Hawks: Zelmo Beaty (6'9")
- Detroit Pistons: Walter Dukes (7'0")
- San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain (7'1")
- Chicago Zephyrs: Walt Bellamy (6'11")

It's important to know your NBA history before trying to ruin the reputation of one of the NBA's most respected and legendary players.

[alexcampos]

This is why I'm such a "Team guy".

I couldn't care less who's the greatest ever.

All I care about it that MY team wins, regardless who's wearing the uniform.

[WillC]

This is why I'm such a "Team guy".

I couldn't care less who's the greatest ever.

All I care about it that MY team wins, regardless who's wearing the uniform.

That's the best way of looking at things, but it's still fun to debate who the best players are. A lot of people - myself included - rank Larry Bird as one of the best ever because of his incredible team play. I have a hard time imagining him having a losing record even if you surrounded him with complete crap; he was such a phenomenal team player that he'd make any of his teammates look amazing.

[MikeMamba]

MikeMamba, you're arguing yourself into a corner.

Nobody is playing the 'if' game. It's a fact that Magic Johnson won as many titles as Kobe but in less seasons.

Regarding Russell, I have to correct you on something. He did not play against smaller centers. Russell's career was from 1957 to 1969. If you take the middle-season (1963) as a proxy, here are the starting centers in the NBA:

- Boston Celtics: Bill Russell (6'9")
- Syracuse Nationals: Red Kerr (6'9")
- Cincinnati Royals: Wayne Embry (6'8")
- New York Knicks: Willie Naulls (6'6")
- Los Angeles Lakers: Leroy Ellis (6'10")
- St. Louis Hawks: Zelmo Beaty (6'9")
- Detroit Pistons: Walter Dukes (7'0")
- San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain (7'1")
- Chicago Zephyrs: Walt Bellamy (6'11")

It's important to know your NBA history before trying to ruin the reputation of one of the NBA's most respected and legendary players.

[Ctrl] F, type in "if" starting from the first page.... Go

Why did he shoot under .500? Average those players out, the average height is like 6'8 lol

[blastman]

For the younger guys in here, I suggest you read through the following links. It may change your opinions about the legends of basketball.


NBA: The Case for Wilt Chamberlain as the Best Ever | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1217186-nba-the-case-for-wilt-chamberlain-as-the-best-ever)

Greatness Revisited: Why Wilt Chamberlain Was the Greatest NBA Player Ever | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/130817-greatness-revisited-why-wilt-chamberlain-is-the-greatest-nba-player-ever)

[WillC]

Why did he shoot under .500? Average those players out, the average height is like 6'8 lol

I can see you're struggling with basic maths...

The average height of Bill Russell's 9 opposing centers is 6 foot and 9.7 inches. So let's round it to 6'10". In other words, on average, Bill Russell faced bigger centers.

So no, not "like 6'8", more like 6'10".

Russell shot under .500 because he wasn't a great offensive player in the same way that Kareem wasn't a great defensive player, Kobe isn't a great team player and Magic wasn't a great shooter.

Instead, Russell won games (and championships) because of his off-the-charts defense, rebounding, teamplay and leadership.

[MikeMamba]

I can see you're struggling with basic maths...

The average height of Bill Russell's 9 opposing centers is 6 foot and 9.7 inches. So let's round it to 6'10". In other words, on average, Bill Russell faced bigger centers.

So no, not "like 6'8", more like 6'10".

Russell shot under .500 because he wasn't a great offensive player in the same way that Kareem wasn't a great defensive player, Kobe isn't a great team player and Magic wasn't a great shooter.

Instead, Russell won games (and championships) because of his off-the-charts defense, rebounding, teamplay and leadership.

Magic wasn't a great shooter but still shot .500 + multiple times, Kobe not a "great team player" but still has won 5 titles, Kareem not a great defender but his defensive stats are there...
Did you personally see Russell though? Or going from what other people say? Because defensive stats weren't accounted for during his time.

[MikeMamba]

But I know he was a good defender, I just know because people always say so.

[WillC]

Magic wasn't a great shooter but still shot .500 + multiple times, Kobe not a "great team player" but still has won 5 titles, Kareem not a great defender but his defensive stats are there...

...and Bill Russell wasn't a great offensive player and yet still won 11 championship rings.

You're arguing yourself into a corner again.

Did you personally see Russell though? Or going from what other people say? Because defensive stats weren't accounted for during his time.

I've watched pretty much all the existing footage of Bill Russell playing basketball. I have spent a small fortune purchasing rare Bill Russell footage, game film, interviews, magazines, articles, newspapers and so on.

Not sure what else I can do to have an informed opinion on the man.

[MikeMamba]

...and Bill Russell wasn't a great offensive player and yet still won 11 championship rings.

You're arguing yourself into a corner again.



I've watched pretty much all the existing footage of Bill Russell playing basketball. I have spent a small fortune purchasing rare Bill Russell footage, game film, interviews, magazines, articles, newspapers and so on.

Not sure what else I can do to have an informed opinion on the man.

But offense doesn't define championships right? All about that defense...
"Russell won games (and championships) because of his off-the-charts defense, rebounding, teamplay and leadership"

I'm not discrediting him, simply said "IF he played in today's NBA, he would not have 11 titles and would not be a HOF'er."
Just playing the IF game.

[WillC]

But offense doesn't define championships right? All about that defense...
"Russell won games (and championships) because of his off-the-charts defense, rebounding, teamplay and leadership"

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make; you need both offense and defense to win championships. It's rare to win with just one rather than the other. Meanwhile, to win 11 championships, you clearly need to be proficient at both. Russell wasn't an elite scorer, but he wasn't a liability either, clearly.

I'm not discrediting him, simply said "IF he played in today's NBA, he would not have 11 titles and would not be a HOF'er."
Just playing the IF game.

You are 100% discrediting him. That's precisely what you're doing. You have gone out of your way to say that he played against smaller centers (which is incorrect) and belittled his FG% while suggesting that he wouldn't be a superstar in today's NBA.

Well, likewise, there's no way of knowing how Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant or LeBron James might perform in the NBA in 2060.

All you can do is beat the players put in front of you.

Bill Russell did that better than anyone, ever.

[murrke03]

Its pretty simple when you take a players over all career accomplishment into factor. Are you suggesting that Kobe was riding the coat tail of Shaq when he won 2 more rings without him? lol

Only you in your little world would think I was suggesting that. Lol what's a stupid question.

[mrlaker]

I've posted and read way too much about this on Realgm to get too into where kobe ranks all time. Personally I put him in the 7-10 and I'm a huge laker fan. Kobe has managed to sustain a pretty high peak for long period of time, while most others don't have longevity Kobe did but had periods of dominance exceeding kobe's best imo.


To me Kobe is tied with magic for the best Laker ever. I am not talking about player dominance, because when it comes to that it's clear to me that KAJ surpassed KB and most likely Magic, but as far as taking everything in as a whole it's Kobe and Magic, and to be honest I don't think you can choose one over the other.

Simply put, argueably KAJ's best years weren't even on the lakers, nor did he ever have the wide appeal of either Magic nor Kobe, not that he cared too. When I think Lakers I instantly think Kobe and Magic, KAJ and Shaq are secondary and I think that's part of what defines "the greatest ever" of a franchise.

[murrke03]

Who else remembers how average the lakers were after shaq left and it was just Kobe?

Goat lol

[WillC]

I've posted and read way too much about this on Realgm to get too into where kobe ranks all time. Personally I put him in the 7-10 and I'm a huge laker fan. Kobe has managed to sustain a pretty high peak for long period of time, while most others don't have longevity Kobe did but had periods of dominance exceeding kobe's best imo.


To me Kobe is tied with magic for the best Laker ever. I am not talking about player dominance, because when it comes to that it's clear to me that KAJ surpassed KB and most likely Magic, but as far as taking everything in as a whole it's Kobe and Magic, and to be honest I don't think you can choose one over the other.

Simply put, argueably KAJ's best years weren't even on the lakers, nor did he ever have the wide appeal of either Magic nor Kobe, not that he cared too. When I think Lakers I instantly think Kobe and Magic, KAJ and Shaq are secondary and I think that's part of what defines "the greatest ever" of a franchise.

Voice of reason.

[bdoody42]

Orangejello has left after many people have discredited his opinion along with MikeMambas opinion.

No one argued Kobe is great, just obviously not the GOAT in anyway!

[Kosmo Kards]

Love Kobe, my favorite player and top 5 in my book but not greatest Laker of all time.

Top 5 all time:

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Russell
Kobe

[bdoody42]

Love Kobe, my favorite player and top 5 in my book but not greatest Laker of all time.

Top 5 all time:

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Russell
Kobe

Loving a non bias fan :)!

[Orangejello727]

Orangejello has left after many people have discredited his opinion along with MikeMambas opinion.

No one argued Kobe is great, just obviously not the GOAT in anyway!

No one left. Some of us have lives. That includes a 3 hr commute home on a friday night.

How do you discredit an opinion? I think blue is the best colour. You going to trying and discredit that as well Einstein?

[bdoody42]

No one left. Some of us have lives. That includes a 3 hr commute home on a friday night.

How do you discredit an opinion? I think blue is the best colour. You going to trying and discredit that as well Einstein?

Just showing off a narrow mind with commons like that.

[bdoody42]

Just showing off a narrow mind with commons like that.

If I say all women belong in a kitchen and shouldn't have rights, that is also an opinion. I dont have the before mentioned opinion btw, Obviously it is a ridiculous opinion..... Like saying Kobe is the GOAT.

[murrke03]

Lucky for oj he can't be proved 100% wrong in this case because it deals with opinions.

That is why he hasn't dipped yet. hahahahha

[sunsfan8]

If you say Kobe is the best laker ever, you're wrong. Magic/Kareem is.
If you say he isn't, you're wrong. He is.

Moral: Don't post on the Internet.

[bdoody42]

Lucky for oj he can't be proved 100% wrong in this case because it deals with opinions.

That is why he hasn't dipped yet. hahahahha

He has to know he is wrong. :)

[kobemagee29]

Magic is the best Laker ever IMO

totally disagree

[1eyed_jack]

To the guy posting about how Magic won 5 titles in 13 years and kobe won 5 in 16 years. how is that a huge factor?

Being an elite player is about winning and playing great. Magic won the same as Kobe, but Kobe was/is able to stay a dominating player much longer than Magic.

Are you telling me a guy who win 3 championships that plays only 5 years is better than a guy who wins 3 championships, but plays 18 years and is a great player throughout?

Longevity is underratted in my opinion. There are lots of players that were elite for a period of time, but not many who sustained that.

Allen Iverson (a former MVP) came out the same year as Kobe and was an amazing player for 12 or so seasons, Kobe is in his 17th season and still one of the best in the game. Surely that means something

[murrke03]

To the guy posting about how Magic won 5 titles in 13 years and kobe won 5 in 16 years. how is that a huge factor?

Being an elite player is about winning and playing great. Magic won the same as Kobe, but Kobe was/is able to stay a dominating player much longer than Magic.

Are you telling me a guy who win 3 championships that plays only 5 years is better than a guy who wins 3 championships, but plays 18 years and is a great player throughout?

Longevity is underratted in my opinion. There are lots of players that were elite for a period of time, but not many who sustained that.

Allen Iverson (a former MVP) came out the same year as Kobe and was an amazing player for 12 or so seasons, Kobe is in his 17th season and still one of the best in the game. Surely that means something

i think you are also underrating the effects of HIV...

[1eyed_jack]

i think you are also underrating the effects of HIV...

I'm not, I'm not trying to be harsh, but you can't really take that into account. I look at it like a player whose career was cut short by injuries

[murrke03]

I'm not, I'm not trying to be harsh, but you can't really take that into account. I look at it like a player whose career was cut short by injuries

i understand that and what you mean and I agree longevity is overlooked. but in the case of magic vs. kobe to say magic wasn't as great a player as kobe because of longevity is a little wrong/misinformed in my opinion.

[1eyed_jack]

i understand that and what you mean and I agree longevity is overlooked. but in the case of magic vs. kobe to say magic wasn't as great a player as kobe because of longevity is a little wrong/misinformed in my opinion.

Why though? I'm honestly asking.

I mean say Magic didn't get HIV, but rather broke his leg in a motorcycle accident, would you feel differently?

[freethrowtommy]

Kobe is not greater than Magic or Kareem...

[IamRalpho]

All I read that was insane was the clown who said Magic was over blown because he got Aids.

Probably one of the worst, and the stupidest and ill informed things I have ever read on the interweb and that says a lot.

[bdoody42]

All I read that was insane was the clown who said Magic was over blown because he got Aids.

Probably one of the worst, and the stupidest and ill informed things I have ever read on the interweb and that says a lot.

Lol that was the low point of the thread lol.

[murrke03]

Lol that was the low point of the thread lol.

he never replied to my ask for cold hard proof.

i mean he said it was a 'fact' that he faked it. :rolleyes:

crazy people on the internet

[kobemagee29]

Kobe is not greater than Magic or Kareem...

or Aaron Rodgers

[forgiven1]

Jerry West says Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time...Go ahead and argue with Jerry....LOL....

Jerry West: Kobe Bryant is the greatest Laker of all-time | Yardbarker.com (http://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/msn/jerry_west_kobe_bryant_is_the_greatest_laker_of_all_time/12384919)

Kobe Bryant is the greatest Laker of all time..I agree with you Jerry!....:)!

[WillC]

Bill Simmons' latest article comparing Kobe Bryant to the all-time greats: The Sports Guy talks NBA leadership with Bill Russell, plus Week 14 picks - Grantland (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8724362/the-kobe-question)

Regarding Kobe's ranking, Simmons ranks him about 7th or 8th:

If we're really comparing Kobe to the greatest players who ever lived — something that seems to be happening more and more lately — you can't just rattle off his résumé (30,000 points, five titles, 10 first-team All-NBAs, one MVP, two Finals MVPs, etc.) without mentioning the other stuff. Of the 14 greatest players of all time, only Wilt and Kobe needed 10,000-word footnotes to cover "the other stuff." That list currently looks like this: Jordan, then Russell, then Kareem, then Magic/Bird, then Wilt, then Kobe/Duncan (or Duncan/Kobe), then West/Oscar, then Hakeem/Shaq/Moses. With LeBron lurking in there somewhere. We just don't know where yet.

You can pick apart his top-five candidacy pretty easily. He was the second-best player on three of those five title teams (not the best). He's only been voted "Most Valuable" once. He never held the "Best Player Alive" belt as emphatically as Jordan did, or even LeBron or Duncan did. And unlike Bird, Magic and Michael, his team seriously considered trading him one time (in 2007).

But you can't take two numbers away from him: 30,000 (points) and five (rings). It's all about pressure over time. He can't beat Jordan conventionally. Looking at the career regular-season averages …

- Jordan: 30.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.3 APG, 50% FG, 84% FT, 27.9 PER, .250 WS/48, 5 MVPs

- Magic: 19.5 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 11.2 APG, 52% FG, 85% FT, 23.0 PER, .208 WS/48, 3 MVPs.

- Bryant: 25.4 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.7 APG, 45% FG, 84% FT, 23.5 PER, .185 WS/48, 1 MVP

… it's no contest. Jordan wins by any calculation.6 And Magic remains the second-best guard ever, at least if you're going by those numbers. Career playoff averages don't help Kobe's case, either.

- Jordan: 33.5 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 5.7 APG, 41.8 MPG, 49% FG, 83% FT, 28.6 PER, .255 WS/48, 6 rings, 6 MVPs

- Magic: 19.5 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 12.4 APG, 39.7 MPG, 51/84%, 23.0 PER, .208 WS/48, 5 rings, 3 MVPs

- Bryant: 25.6 PPG, 5.1 RPG, 4.7 APG, 39.3 MPG, 45% FG, 82% FT, 22.4 PER, .157 WS/48, 5 rings, 2 MVPs

We're still not arguing. Jordan's 33.5 PPG remains the highest ever — nobody else even cracked 30. Magic's 12.4 APG remains the highest ever — nobody else even cracked 10.2.

However, Simmons also mentions lots of reasons why Kobe belongs in the conversation as one of the greatest ever. Just not the greatest.

[chrismiller81]

Kobe will be the 2nd best player to ever play the game after Lebron.

[oldgoldy97]

Magic is the best Laker of all time IMO. Kobe should have been the best Hornet of all time.

[Orangejello727]

Kobe sure has a lot of people out to put him down. Instead of celebrating his feats, the haters will do anything to discredit his achievements. Marketing sure works.

[ajscards101]

I didn't read more than the 1st and last page, but no way Kobe is better than Wilt Chamberlain.

[bdoody42]

Kobe sure has a lot of people out to put him down. Instead of celebrating his feats, the haters will do anything to discredit his achievements. Marketing sure works.

No one is discrediting. He is one of the all time great between 4-9 I would say. There just isn't an argument for him being the best. Just because we say he isn't the best ever is not saying he is garbage. Don't take it personally.... Trust me I know my favorite Larry Bird isn't the best ever.

[murrke03]

Kobe sure has a lot of people out to put him down. Instead of celebrating his feats, the haters will do anything to discredit his achievements. Marketing sure works.

This is totally wrong. It would be hard to find someone that doesn't rank him in top 10-12 all time if not lower.

[tnarg]

Kobe isn't even top 100 of all time, let alone the greatest laker. I can name about 10 lakers better than kobe

[nuccionino]

Kobe isn't even top 100 of all time, let alone the greatest laker. I can name about 10 lakers better than kobe

That's just this year.

[murrke03]

Kobe isn't even top 100 of all time, let alone the greatest laker. I can name about 10 lakers better than kobe

Still waiting for the proof that magic faked HIV.

I mean you can't say something like that an claim its a fact and ignore requests for proof.

[Cades]

Top 5 all time Laker, not 1 though

[tnarg]

Still waiting for the proof that magic faked HIV.

I mean you can't say something like that an claim its a fact and ignore requests for proof.

I was just trying to rile people up

I have no proof.

[thepinoymamba]

Kobe is the greatest Lakers of all time. Kobe had the most franchise points.
Kobe have the most field goal points.
Kobe scored 81 points in a game.
This is about the greatest Lakers and Kobe By any means would forever be considered the greatest Lakers of all time.

As in the greatest of all time...
It would be

Michael Jordan
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Russel
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Lebron James...

[1eyed_jack]

Kobe is the greatest Lakers of all time. Kobe had the most franchise points.
Kobe have the most field goal points.
Kobe scored 81 points in a game.
This is about the greatest Lakers and Kobe By any means would forever be considered the greatest Lakers of all time.

As in the greatest of all time...
It would be

Michael Jordan
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Russel
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Lebron James...

I'd argue against Lebron on that list!

He certainly has potential to be, but I'm not putting him that high until later in his career

[bdoody42]

Kobe is the greatest Lakers of all time. Kobe had the most franchise points.
Kobe have the most field goal points.
Kobe scored 81 points in a game.
This is about the greatest Lakers and Kobe By any means would forever be considered the greatest Lakers of all time.

As in the greatest of all time...
It would be

Michael Jordan
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Russel
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Lebron James...

Without Wilt in top 5 or 6 no list is legit..

[jimssouvenirs]

Laker homers :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

If you shoot the most or 2nd most FGs in the MAJORITY of the seasons you play, of course you're going to score a ton of points.

Kobe is a great player, but him "scoring the most Laker points" or "having a ton of rings" doesn't make him a great Laker. He's the face of the franchise and has been for a while, but Magic and Kareem were better players and much less selfish. I still believe Kobe has COST the Lakers a couple of rings.

[1eyed_jack]

Laker homers :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

If you shoot the most or 2nd most FGs in the MAJORITY of the seasons you play, of course you're going to score a ton of points.

Kobe is a great player, but him "scoring the most Laker points" or "having a ton of rings" doesn't make him a great Laker. He's the face of the franchise and has been for a while, but Magic and Kareem were better players and much less selfish. I still believe Kobe has COST the Lakers a couple of rings.



Well that's funny

Karrem
Most points
Most Field Goal Attempts

Malone
2nd most points
2nd most field goal attempts

Jordan
3rd most points
3rd most field goal attempts

Wilt
4th most points
6th most field goal attempts

Kobe
5th most points
7th most field goal attempts



alrighty, now that that's clear


next!

[Orangejello727]

Magic, Jerry West and SHaq claim Kobe to the best Laker of all time.

But let me guess, members here know more and consider themselves more knowledge of playing basketball than NBA players like west, shaq and magic who were all players themselves.

Members choice vs NBA HOFs choice?? Who would you put more weight on when the decision has to be made?

[forgiven1]

Magic, Jerry West and SHaq claim Kobe to the best Laker of all time.

But let me guess, members here know more and consider themselves more knowledge of playing basketball than NBA players like west, shaq and magic who were all players themselves.

Members choice vs NBA HOFs choice?? Who would you put more weight on when the decision has to be made?

Exactly!....Nuff said!......:)!

[1eyed_jack]

That's the same as him being clutch though. Henry Abbott writes all these articles and people look at stats only and say he's far from clutch, but in every NBA player poll, he's always number one. Which do you trust haha

[jeff152380]

It all depends how you measure the greatest.... I personally think magic Johnson is best laker ever.... He made more of an impact on the court when Kobe makes more of an impact on the box score..... Kobe teammates from past and present don't have a lot of great things to say about playing with him....just about talented he is..... On the other hand all lakers who played with magic loved him and are full of compliments of how great of a teammate he was........

[1eyed_jack]

It all depends how you measure the greatest.... I personally think magic Johnson is best laker ever.... He made more of an impact on the court when Kobe makes more of an impact on the box score..... Kobe teammates from past and present don't have a lot of great things to say about playing with him....just about talented he is..... On the other hand all lakers who played with magic loved him and are full of compliments of how great of a teammate he was........

Kobe's played with a lot of lazy players. Hence the dislike from his teammates.

I'm sure Derek Fisher has nothing but good things to say about Kobe, but nah, take Andrew Bynums word for it hahahjahahaha

[bdoody42]

The argument originally was for him being the greatest of all time, not being the best laker of all time.

[Orangejello727]

It all depends how you measure the greatest.... I personally think magic Johnson is best laker ever.... He made more of an impact on the court when Kobe makes more of an impact on the box score..... Kobe teammates from past and present don't have a lot of great things to say about playing with him....just about talented he is..... On the other hand all lakers who played with magic loved him and are full of compliments of how great of a teammate he was........

Many of MJs team mates claim MJ was the biggest arse to them. He would demand them to be traded to treating them like dirt. But that doesnt take away from his accomplishments.

If this was a "whos the nicest Laker of all time", you would have a case with that argument. Unfortunately thats not the subject.

Its clear Magic himself claims Kobe to be the best laker of all time. So does Shaq and Jerry West. Are you going to tell me their choice dont count? and if they dont count, who would be better choice of making that decision on best laker of all time?

[1eyed_jack]

Many of MJs team mates claim MJ was the biggest arse to them. He would demand them to be traded to treating them like dirt. But that doesnt take away from his accomplishments.

If this was a "whos the nicest Laker of all time", you would have a case with that argument. Unfortunately thats not the subject.

Its clear Magic himself claims Kobe to be the best laker of all time. So does Shaq and Jerry West. Are you going to tell me their choice dont count? and if they dont count, who would be better choice of making that decision on best laker of all time?

but that's the double standard

Jordan treats his teammates like crap and "he's such a competitive player, always demanding the best!"

Kobe does the same and "he's such a bad teammate and leader"

[jeff152380]

Magic claiming Kobe is the best laker all time is the exact reason why he is the greatest...... Kobe would never call magic the greatest....Magic is the most unselfish player the lakers/nba has every seen....... Jordan has nothing to do with it...... Shaq has never said anything intelligent in his life and Jerry west was forgotten because of magic......Magic made a bigger impact on the court and best ever in my opinion

[1eyed_jack]

Magic claiming Kobe is the best laker all time is the exact reason why he is the greatest...... Kobe would never call magic the greatest....Magic is the most unselfish player the lakers/nba has every seen....... Jordan has nothing to do with it...... Shaq has never said anything intelligent in his life and Jerry west was forgotten because of magic......Magic made a bigger impact on the court and best ever in my opinion

yeah ok man

[jeff152380]

Better question is how old are the people claiming Kobe is best ever..... Would explain a lot..

[1eyed_jack]

Better question is how old are the people claiming Kobe is best ever..... Would explain a lot..

I for one think Jordan is better, but I think Kobe is the best Laker of all time.

How old are you?

[Orangejello727]

Better question is how old are the people claiming Kobe is best ever..... Would explain a lot..

Old enough to watch Magic play in his prime and Kobe through out his career.

Fortunately for me, im not stuck in the late 80s and understand how the dynamics of the game has changed.

Age has nothing to do with rationalizing who is the best. You werent around to watch Wilt or West play yet you write them off pretty quick.

[pac213up]

I take Magic over Kobe. Magic could contribute at a high level across multiple positions and also could dominate a game without scoring. Just a more versatile player. Still have nightmares over that sky hook.

[Craig]

As much as I dislike Kobe, he has spent a great chunk of his career not being given proper recognition for his accomplishments. Jerry West is my all-time favorite Laker, and Magic was fun to watch, but I'd say the race is really between Kobe and Kareem. Both could score, both performed consistently for long periods of time, and both could defend (unlike Magic). Wilt Chamberlain was a great player, but by the time he came to L.A. his best years were behind him.

As to where Kobe fits on the all-time list of NBA greats, that's a tough question because there's so much subjectivity. I'd personally say top-10, with his final positioning there still to be determined. I still like Jordan, Wilt and Russell in my top three, but with Kobe and Lebron around it's tough to say how things might shake out 10 years from now.

[Tarheelsfan2012]

I'll go
1. Magic
2. Kareem
3. Jerry West

Wilts not here because for over half of his career he was in Philly and from reading Bill Simmons Book of Basketball Wilt sounded like a Douche. Kobe is good but not convinced he had a bigger impact on the game than the top 3 I listed. He wouldnt have won the first three titles if Shaq wasnt there because lets be honest, during those years Shaq bullied and dominated people.

[thepinoymamba]

Without Wilt in top 5 or 6 no list is legit..

The way wilt dominated was an era where even a regular center would also dominate.
Not that he is among the greats but by the way if he plays now. He would not be as dominated as he was on his era. Wilt amongst the top 15.

[bdoody42]

The way wilt dominated was an era where even a regular center would also dominate.
Not that he is among the greats but by the way if he plays now. He would not be as dominated as he was on his era. Wilt amongst the top 15.

So you're saying an average center like in the NBA in like Marcin Gortat or even an above average center like Marc Gasol would have done what Wilt did?

That's a false statement. You obviously are estimating Wilts dominance.

[Orangejello727]

I'll go
1. Magic
2. Kareem
3. Jerry West

Wilts not here because for over half of his career he was in Philly and from reading Bill Simmons Book of Basketball Wilt sounded like a Douche. Kobe is good but not convinced he had a bigger impact on the game than the top 3 I listed. He wouldnt have won the first three titles if Shaq wasnt there because lets be honest, during those years Shaq bullied and dominated people.

What does another play have to do with rings? The argument that if someone wasn't there plays equally for every player

Without pippen, mj wins 0 titles
Without Kobe, Shaquille wins no titles in la
Without "insert team mate here" player doesn't win a title

Lets be honest here , NO player wins a titles if you take any player away from a winning team

[1eyed_jack]

So you're saying an average center like in the NBA in like Marcin Gortat or even an above average center like Marc Gasol would have done what Wilt did?

That's a false statement. You obviously are estimating Wilts dominance.

He still said Wilt is a top 15 player, so it's not like he's saying he was average.

I think he just means that Wilt's main advantage was the era he played in, and while he had a lot of talent and skill, he was just so much bigger than everyone that he was able to put up ridiculous numbers, numbers that he wouldn't come close to reaching if he played today

[Orangejello727]

So you're saying an average center like in the NBA in like Marcin Gortat or even an above average center like Marc Gasol would have done what Wilt did?

That's a false statement. You obviously are estimating Wilts dominance.


Now you understand why it's hard to compare players out of era

I'm willing to bet a cp3 type player .... If put in the 60s with today's athleticism would run circles around everyone. In that same aspect if cp3 played in the 60s he would be sitting on the "ir" because of the beating he took in his first game

[Tarheelsfan2012]

What does another play have to do with rings? The argument that if someone wasn't there plays equally for every player

Without pippen, mj wins 0 titles
Without Kobe, Shaquille wins no titles in la
Without "insert team mate here" player doesn't win a title

Lets be honest here , NO player wins a titles if you take any player away from a winning team

The point by it is Kobe wasnt the go to guy. Jordan was the man every single time he took the court. Kobe was Robin while Shaq was Batman on the first three championships.

[bdoody42]

He still said Wilt is a top 15 player, so it's not like he's saying he was average.

I think he just means that Wilt's main advantage was the era he played in, and while he had a lot of talent and skill, he was just so much bigger than everyone that he was able to put up ridiculous numbers, numbers that he wouldn't come close to reaching if he played today

He said an average center would do the same thing? Is Wilt an average Center? Obvious answer is no.

[Orangejello727]

The point by it is Kobe wasnt the go to guy. Jordan was the man every single time he took the court. Kobe was Robin while Shaq was Batman on the first three championships.

Thats because he was still young and the franchise player at the time was Shaq. Of course Shaq was the #1 option. Thats not kobes fault. How do you blame kobe for being young in in that situation.

Its no fault of kobe that there was a seasoned vetran in his prime in front of him. In Mjs case, he was the go to guy because everyone his on team came after him.

[bdoody42]

Thats because he was still young and the franchise player at the time was Shaq. Of course Shaq was the #1 option. Thats not kobes fault. How do you blame kobe for being young in in that situation.

Its no fault of kobe that there was a seasoned vetran in his prime in front of him. In Mjs case, he was the go to guy because everyone his on team came after him.

It's not his fault. It's just what happened so you can't change it. Just have to decide based on things that happened.

[Orangejello727]

It's not his fault. It's just what happened so you can't change it. Just have to decide based on things that happened.

Thats fine. Without Kobe, those 3 championships would never have been won !!

I cant believe the argument has changed to, kobe not being the #1 option because he was still young. I wonder why MJ didnt win any championships in his first 5 yrs in the league if he is so good. How come SHaq never won a ring till Kobe came to the team?

[bdoody42]

Thats fine. Without Kobe, those 3 championships would never have been won !!

The same thing can be said for probably all the starters and that is correct. The disagreement began when you called Kobe the GOAT.

[Orangejello727]

The same thing can be said for probably all the starters and that is correct. The disagreement began when you called Kobe the GOAT.

Then take it out of the equation because that type of factor must be used for all players, not just kobe. Its a point that cant be made unless used for everyone. So why use it against kobe but no one else?

If you want to compare #1 options then atleast look at kobe when he was the #1 option and go to guy instead of focussing on when he wasnt. When we talk about MJ, Magic and who ever else, we tend to focus on their great years, not their rookie seasons and years they didnt win. So why not do the same for kobe?

[Craig]

Lets be honest here , NO player wins a titles if you take any player away from a winning team

This is one of the best statements I've read in this thread, and it's something that tends to get lost in the discussion.

So many people want to say Kobe only won this first titles because of Shaq, or that he couldn't win again until he had Gasol et al to help the second time around. But if that's to be held against him, then can someone tell me the last team to win a title with only one star player on the team? The '80s Celtics and Lakers, through to Jordan/Pippen, Wade/Lebron, Olajuwon/Drexler...it's a lengthy list. I don't understand how having Shaq to help win titles is held against Kobe.

[bdoody42]

This is one of the best statements I've read in this thread, and it's something that tends to get lost in the discussion.

So many people want to say Kobe only won this first titles because of Shaq, or that he couldn't win again until he had Gasol et al to help the second time around. But if that's to be held against him, then can someone tell me the last team to win a title with only one star player on the team? The '80s Celtics and Lakers, through to Jordan/Pippen, Wade/Lebron, Olajuwon/Drexler...it's a lengthy list. I don't understand how having Shaq to help win titles is held against Kobe.

I don't see how it is being held against him. We recognize that he was important to those titles, but he wasn't the main option. That's all I am saying.

[murrke03]

Thats fine. Without Kobe, those 3 championships would never have been won !!

I cant believe the argument has changed to, kobe not being the #1 option because he was still young. I wonder why MJ didnt win any championships in his first 5 yrs in the league if he is so good. How come SHaq never won a ring till Kobe came to the team?

You can't equate Kobe's rings while being the 2nd guy with those when he was 'the man'.

Jordan was the man for ALL his titles. Kobe was not. And that needs to be factored in.