View Full Version : Curt Schilling Question
HadWayTooMuch
01-09-2013, 04:29 PM
Now I don't think Schilling is a HOFer, but many people are acting like his post-season and his bloody sock will get him in.
My question is this. If he gets in, what hat does he wear? Remember, he does not choose. I had written this awhile back. Any thoughts?
Curt Schilling Article (http://www.sportscardmemories.com/apps/blog/show/13935146-1989-donruss-curt-schilling-rookie-card)
mainerunr
01-09-2013, 05:03 PM
Non issue, he does not belong in the Hall.
If he does get in, it will be because of what he did with the Red Sox, not what he did in his career so I could see him going in with a Sox hat.
mgugs46
01-09-2013, 05:08 PM
My guess is he gets in eventually. 200+ wins, an amazing post season performer (not just in Boston) with 3,000+ K's.
HadWayTooMuch
01-09-2013, 05:17 PM
Non issue, he does not belong in the Hall.
If he does get in, it will be because of what he did with the Red Sox, not what he did in his career so I could see him going in with a Sox hat.
I agree, but a lot of "experts" believe he's worthy. I have my serious doubts!
I wrote this about 3 years ago when Andre Dawson was going in. I guess I'm stuck on the Gary Carter thing:
Andre Dawson Shouldn't Have A Choice What Cap To Wear In Cooperstown (http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/4970457-andre-dawson-shouldnt-have-a-choice-what-cap-to-wear-in-cooperstown)
IamRalpho
01-09-2013, 05:49 PM
Hes going to get in because his peak was so high, what he did during the post season and the fact he went to Boston and then they won.
The Hall chooses, so my guess is either Arizona or Boston.
marl1220
01-09-2013, 06:37 PM
The answer is yes, he's a fat, drama queen of a d-bag.... Sorry, what was the question again?
IamRalpho
01-09-2013, 06:48 PM
The answer is yes, he's a fat, drama queen of a d-bag who is going to be in the Hall of Fame.... Sorry, what was the question again?
Fixed it for you :)
AUTaxMan
01-09-2013, 06:57 PM
Now I don't think Schilling is a HOFer, but many people are acting like his post-season and his bloody sock will get him in.
My question is this. If he gets in, what hat does he wear? Remember, he does not choose. I had written this awhile back. Any thoughts?
Curt Schilling Article (http://www.sportscardmemories.com/apps/blog/show/13935146-1989-donruss-curt-schilling-rookie-card)
Schilling doesn't pass my 5 second HOF test. If I have to think about whether or not someone is deserving for more than 5 seconds, they aren't.
IamRalpho
01-09-2013, 07:02 PM
Schilling doesn't pass my 5 second HOF test. If I have to think about whether or not someone is deserving for more than 5 seconds, they aren't.
Oh, you must have been a voter today because that sounds like the insightful rationale they used today :confused:
rolewiii
01-09-2013, 07:27 PM
They might make him wear the D-Backs cap, like with Gary Carter and the 'spos.
xbignick
01-09-2013, 07:30 PM
Why doesn't he belong in, because of wins? Great numbers, great rates, long career, and certainly had peak years. I'd put him with the Phillies.
RedSoxFan28
01-09-2013, 07:36 PM
I think he should get in, and either Arizona or Boston :)
HadWayTooMuch
01-09-2013, 07:39 PM
Here's the thing. He spent 4 years in AZ and 4 years in BOS. He spent 9 years in Philly.
Gary Carter spent 12 years in MON and 5 in NY and begged to go in as a Met. They told him know. You cannot justify letting Schilling choose his cap and not let Gary Carter do it.
But then again, that's logical thinking...
If you look at Schilling's numbers throughout his career, he was not dominant long enough to be a HOFer. Yeah, great post-season. But post-season alone does not get you into the HOF. Check out his numbers, you'll see.
xbignick
01-09-2013, 07:57 PM
Here's the thing. He spent 4 years in AZ and 4 years in BOS. He spent 9 years in Philly.
Gary Carter spent 12 years in MON and 5 in NY and begged to go in as a Met. They told him know. You cannot justify letting Schilling choose his cap and not let Gary Carter do it.
But then again, that's logical thinking...
If you look at Schilling's numbers throughout his career, he was not dominant long enough to be a HOFer. Yeah, great post-season. But post-season alone does not get you into the HOF. Check out his numbers, you'll see.
Not sure what you're looking at but his numbers are there:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fangraphs.com%2Fstatss.aspx%3Fplayerid%3D73%26position%3DP&ei=1hHuUJOPPOi40AGKqYHoDg&usg=AFQjCNF4EXTnXGENRq2EF0isqut-2VBCuQ&bvm=bv.1357316858,d.dmQ
death2redemptions
01-09-2013, 08:01 PM
If he gets in I hope it is as a D-Back
AUTaxMan
01-09-2013, 08:25 PM
Oh, you must have been a voter today because that sounds like the insightful rationale they used today :confused:
I follow the stats pretty closely, so I have that going for me as well. :)!
xbignick
01-09-2013, 08:27 PM
I follow the stats pretty closely, so I have that going for me as well. :)!
You have a memory bank in your head you can recall accurately and think about all in five seconds or less? Boy!
Bader
01-09-2013, 08:33 PM
I vote Schilling for Jay Johnstone's Hall of Sports Bloopers and that's about it!
Bloody sock...please he picked a scab in between innings and made his ankle bleed, exscuse me while I call CNN
Tugarpj
01-09-2013, 08:35 PM
I vote Schilling for Jay Johnstone's Hall of Sports Bloopers and that's about it!
Bloody sock...please he picked a scab in between innings and made his ankle bleed, exscuse me while I call CNN
Savini avatar. Sweet!
Bader
01-09-2013, 08:42 PM
Savini avatar. Sweet!
Thanks!...he was a very cool person to meet
GoBeavs
01-09-2013, 08:44 PM
While maybe not a sure-fire "first balloter" like Randy, Greg, or Pedro; he's definitely in the next tier with Pettite, Smoltz & Glavine for that era. All are pitchers I'd consider worthy. I think he should go in with a Philbacksox hat.
IamRalpho
01-09-2013, 09:07 PM
Going to be interesting to see what Clemens wears, it needs to be the B. I think that is why he has been so friendly and involved with the Sox lately, he knows where his legacy will be going forward.
Even if Schilling wears a Phillies or Dbacks hat, gonna be one of the most important players in Sox history
death2redemptions
01-09-2013, 09:10 PM
Going to be interesting to see what Clemens wears, it needs to be the B. I think that is why he has been so friendly and involved with the Sox lately, he knows where his legacy will be going forward.
Even if Schilling wears a Phillies or Dbacks hat, gonna be one of the most important players in Sox history
Clemens won't get in...
HadWayTooMuch
01-09-2013, 09:16 PM
Not sure what you're looking at but his numbers are there:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fangraphs.com%2Fstatss.aspx%3Fplayerid%3D73%26position%3DP&ei=1hHuUJOPPOi40AGKqYHoDg&usg=AFQjCNF4EXTnXGENRq2EF0isqut-2VBCuQ&bvm=bv.1357316858,d.dmQ
First of all, we all know it's subjective. You can read a stat one way and I can read the same stat another way.
Here is how I read his stats:
I see a guy that pitched for 18 seasons and this is what I see:
3 times - won 20 games
5 times - won more than 15 games
8 times - ERA below 3.50
0 Cy Young Awards
6 time all star
216 wins
Nothing to be ashamed of. Definitely belongs in the Hall of Very Good, without a doubt.
Problem is, it's called Hall of Fame.
Put Schilling in and we have to start talking about Bob Welch, which I don't want to do.
Hall of Very Good
RedSoxFan28
01-09-2013, 09:57 PM
Schilling also is ranked 18th all time for CY Young Award Shares, he is the only person in the top 28 not to win a Cy Yound Award.
HadWayTooMuch
01-09-2013, 09:59 PM
Schilling also is ranked 18th all time for CY Young Award Shares, he is the only person in the top 28 not to win a Cy Yound Award.
I have never heard of Cy Young Award Shares. Wow, they have a stat for just about everything, don't they?
RedSoxFan28
01-09-2013, 10:00 PM
I have never heard of Cy Young Award Shares. Wow, they have a stat for just about everything, don't they?
Haha Just about ;) , It might not be the most useful stat but I found it interesting that he was the only pitcher not to win a Cy Yound in the top 28
MVP and Cy Young Award Share Leaders - Baseball-Reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_cya.shtml)
IamRalpho
01-09-2013, 10:01 PM
First of all, we all know it's subjective. You can read a stat one way and I can read the same stat another way.
Here is how I read his stats:
I see a guy that pitched for 18 seasons and this is what I see:
3 times - won 20 games
5 times - won more than 15 games
8 times - ERA below 3.50
0 Cy Young Awards
6 time all star
216 wins
Nothing to be ashamed of. Definitely belongs in the Hall of Very Good, without a doubt.
Problem is, it's called Hall of Fame.
Put Schilling in and we have to start talking about Bob Welch, which I don't want to do.
Hall of Very Good
Compare Schillings and Welchs stats/achievements and tell me if that analogy makes sense.
coltsnsox07
01-09-2013, 10:01 PM
Here we go, he has comparable or better than stats than HOFers Jim Bunning, Jack Chesbro, Don Drysdale, Whitey Ford, Lefty Gomez, Jesse Haines, Waite Hoyt, Sandy Koufax, Bob Lemon, Rube Marquard, Hal Newhouser, Dazzy Vance, Rube Wadell, and Ed Walsh. Might as well get rid of those guys too and just include Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson and Grover Alexander. BTW, his post season record of 11-2 2.23 ERA would be one loss less and about 1 1/2 runs less ERA if he didn't pitch a game vs NY on one leg.
HadWayTooMuch
01-09-2013, 10:20 PM
I'll say it again. You can make stats say anything you want them to say. I know 216 wins, no Cy Youngs and no string of domination means no HOF in my eyes.
If you want to make comparisons, Mariano Duncan may be a HOFer because I'm sure his numbers compare to Phil Rizzutos. Rizzuto and his 1500 hits are a joke when Trammell, Concepcion, Bowa and probably Omar Vizquel won't sniff Cooperstown. But just because there's one travesty doesn't mean there should be one all over Cooperstown.
IamRalpho
01-09-2013, 10:21 PM
I'll say it again. You can make stats say anything you want them to say. I know 216 wins, no Cy Youngs and no string of domination means no HOF in my eyes.
If you want to make comparisons, Mariano Duncan may be a HOFer because I'm sure his numbers compare to Phil Rizzutos. Rizzuto and his 1500 hits are a joke when Trammell, Concepcion, Bowa and probably Omar Vizquel won't sniff Cooperstown. But just because there's one travesty doesn't mean there should be one all over Cooperstown.
We are talking about Schilling here, compare his stats to Bob Welch or other Hall of Famers. Not Mariano Duncan.
Regardless if you think he deserves to be in or, the stats and what the HOF has done so far thinks otherwise.
HadWayTooMuch
01-09-2013, 10:25 PM
We are talking about Schilling here, compare his stats to Bob Welch or other Hall of Famers. Not Mariano Duncan.
Regardless if you think he deserves to be in or, the stats and what the HOF has done so far thinks otherwise.
It's all about opinion, period the end. Nobody has the final say. So whether he deserves to be in or not is why we talk sports.
Rizzuto is a joke to get to the HOF.
Schilling is a better candidate than Rizzuto but that doesn't make him a HOFer.
But the HOF is really leaving a lot of us behind. Those that don't know Cy Young Shares, UZR, WAR, DICE, etc. I do realize that. I'm all but a dinosaur right now...
dlab85
01-09-2013, 10:27 PM
I'll say it again. You can make stats say anything you want them to say. I know 216 wins, no Cy Youngs and no string of domination means no HOF in my eyes.
If you want to make comparisons, Mariano Duncan may be a HOFer because I'm sure his numbers compare to Phil Rizzutos. Rizzuto and his 1500 hits are a joke when Trammell, Concepcion, Bowa and probably Omar Vizquel won't sniff Cooperstown. But just because there's one travesty doesn't mean there should be one all over Cooperstown.
He was 2nd in 3 CYAs, though. Twice to Randy Johnson and once to Johan Santana. His run from 95-2004 definitely puts him in the dominant tier. He wasn't Pedro from 97-03, but he was a great pitcher of the era. If Jack Morris goes, Schilling belongs. His Career ERA+ is the same as Bob Gibson and Tom Seaver. He also did it in the era when Steroids ran rampant. While I could care less about that point, it certainly seems as though the BBWAA all of a sudden does.
I think Schilling gets in eventually. I do agree that he was not a "1st ballot guy"
Bluemarlin528
01-09-2013, 11:06 PM
Kevin Brown basically has the same stats as Schilling. So hell no!
tennelson55
01-09-2013, 11:10 PM
If I have to think about whether or not someone is deserving for more than 5 seconds, they aren't.
Am I reading this correctly? Do you have some insight I don't...?
natbornkiller
01-09-2013, 11:10 PM
It's all about opinion, period the end. Nobody has the final say. So whether he deserves to be in or not is why we talk sports.
Rizzuto is a joke to get to the HOF.
Schilling is a better candidate than Rizzuto but that doesn't make him a HOFer.
But the HOF is really leaving a lot of us behind. Those that don't know Cy Young Shares, UZR, WAR, DICE, etc. I do realize that. I'm all but a dinosaur right now...
how is rizzuto a joke , he played in a different era and career was shortened by ww2 like most players in that era
HadWayTooMuch
01-09-2013, 11:18 PM
how is rizzuto a joke , he played in a different era and career was shortened by ww2 like most players in that era
13 years - 1588 hits.
We'll say 12 years since he was a starter for 12
Averaging 125 or so hits per year
.273 batting average
No power
Bowa, Concepcion, Trammell and Vizquel crush his stats.
It's all Yankees bias.
Everyone knew as soon as Whitey Ford & Yogi Berra were on the Veteran's Committee he would get it, and he did. Must be nice to be a HOFer because your buddies voted you in.
The war didn't seem to stop Ted Williams from putting up HOF numbers...
hitman1116
01-09-2013, 11:26 PM
Like it was said earlier, Schilling finished 2nd, 3 times from 2001-04. First he loses to Randy Johnson's amazing year where he went 21-6 with 2.49 ERA. Schilling finished with a 22-6 record and a 2.98 ERA (if he had that stat line in the AL he would have won that year). The next year same thing, 20+ win season, ERA under 3.30 finishes 2nd to Big Unit. Lost in '04 to Johan in his first season in the AL which to me is tremendous. Not many pitchers have a great first year switching to the AL. Had more wins and less walks then Johan that year.
From 97-04, averaged 16.5 wins, 243 K's, 3.24 ERA.
I just wonder if you add 2 Cy Youngs would people think he's a HOF? Because he could have won in either 2001 or 02 and could have been chosen over Santana in 04
IamRalpho
01-09-2013, 11:31 PM
Kevin Brown basically has the same stats as Schilling. So hell no!
How are Browns postseason stats?
dlab85
01-09-2013, 11:34 PM
Veteran's committee is a whole different deal. They regularly elect guys who don't really belong in...
Bluemarlin528
01-10-2013, 12:05 AM
How are Browns postseason stats?
Schilling was a great post season pitcher, to bad there isn't a Postseason hall of Fame. Brown had a better ERA and one less ring. In my mind not enough of difference to elect to the HOF. If Schilling gets into the HOF I see a Brown & Welch movement starting next.
AUTaxMan
01-10-2013, 12:22 AM
Am I reading this correctly? Do you have some insight I don't...?
It's just knowing the sport, its history, what makes a HOFer and being able to see all of that in perspective. If you follow the sport closely enough, it isn't hard to develop an opinion about who does and who doesn't belong.
dlab85
01-10-2013, 12:23 AM
Schilling was a great post season pitcher, to bad there isn't a Postseason hall of Fame. Brown had a better ERA and one less ring. In my mind not enough of difference to elect to the HOF. If Schilling gets into the HOF I see a Brown & Welch movement starting next.
Schilling also was a reliever for 3 years and had the ankle injury in 2005 which caused his ERA to be 5.89. Brown was dreadful in the World Series. Schilling is going to be in the HOF someday. He belongs in way before Sutter, Blyleven and Gossage
That whole steroid/Kirk Radomski thing about Kevin Brown really throws a hitch into the KB for HOF movement as well...
AUTaxMan
01-10-2013, 12:23 AM
First of all, we all know it's subjective. You can read a stat one way and I can read the same stat another way.
Here is how I read his stats:
I see a guy that pitched for 18 seasons and this is what I see:
3 times - won 20 games
5 times - won more than 15 games
8 times - ERA below 3.50
0 Cy Young Awards
6 time all star
216 wins
Nothing to be ashamed of. Definitely belongs in the Hall of Very Good, without a doubt.
Problem is, it's called Hall of Fame.
Put Schilling in and we have to start talking about Bob Welch, which I don't want to do.
Hall of Very Good
Agree with this assessment.
BSLV9
01-10-2013, 12:38 AM
Do his 3,000 career strikeouts not mean anything? Everyone else that has hit that mark is either a hall of famer, not yet eligible, or Roger Clemens. Not saying it's the most important thing, but voters love them some milestones.
IamRalpho
01-10-2013, 07:58 AM
Schilling was a great post season pitcher, to bad there isn't a Postseason hall of Fame. Brown had a better ERA and one less ring. In my mind not enough of difference to elect to the HOF. If Schilling gets into the HOF I see a Brown & Welch movement starting next.
Post season counts right? I mean they do list their achievements in the Hall of Fame right?
So good thing for Schilling they count postseason stats, thats why he will go in and Bob Welch? Are we really serious? Just because he won 1 Cy Young?
1 Cy Young and inferior stats > Schilling? Gotta love people over valuing wins and him pitching in Oakland :/
Schilling better K numbers, better ERA+, better WHIP, K/9, K/BB, better ERA, more all Star game appearances, more Cy Young finishes, and frankly, if you wanna add playoffs in here, its not even close
I understand not liking Schilling, but Bob Welch is your argument? Come on
IamRalpho
01-10-2013, 08:07 AM
Agree with this assessment.
Also you can not list his accomplishments or downfalls and not mention his post season stats, you can not pick and choose what you want to use to make your argument.
His postseason stats puts him into the Hall of Fame and above guys like Brown and Welch.
Use the full scope of his stats, not just ones that make your argument.
AUTaxMan
01-10-2013, 08:20 AM
Do his 3,000 career strikeouts not mean anything? Everyone else that has hit that mark is either a hall of famer, not yet eligible, or Roger Clemens. Not saying it's the most important thing, but voters love them some milestones.
While milestones mean something, they are becoming less meaningful in this age of advanced baseball statistics.
AUTaxMan
01-10-2013, 08:23 AM
Also you can not list his accomplishments or downfalls and not mention his post season stats, you can not pick and choose what you want to use to make your argument.
His postseason stats puts him into the Hall of Fame and above guys like Brown and Welch.
Use the full scope of his stats, not just ones that make your argument.
I am not ignoring his postseason accomplishments. I think he was a very good pitcher for most of his career, and an amazing pitcher for three years. That, to me, is not enough to get you into the HOF in my opinion. For the record, I LIKE Schilling. He is probably one of my favorite players because of his competitiveness. He is borderline HOF to me, though, and I am a small hall guy, so he is out.
IamRalpho
01-10-2013, 08:24 AM
I am not ignoring his postseason accomplishments. I think he was a very good pitcher for most of his career, and an amazing pitcher for three years. That, to me, is not enough to get you into the HOF in my opinion. For the record, I LIKE Schilling. He is probably one of my favorite players because of his competitiveness. He is borderline HOF to me, though, and I am a small hall guy, so he is out.
Wasnt really at you, but the other poster. I was too lazy to search for his original psot.
xbignick
01-10-2013, 09:20 AM
First of all, we all know it's subjective. You can read a stat one way and I can read the same stat another way.
Here is how I read his stats:
I see a guy that pitched for 18 seasons and this is what I see:
3 times - won 20 games
5 times - won more than 15 games
8 times - ERA below 3.50
0 Cy Young Awards
6 time all star
216 wins
Nothing to be ashamed of. Definitely belongs in the Hall of Very Good, without a doubt.
Problem is, it's called Hall of Fame.
Put Schilling in and we have to start talking about Bob Welch, which I don't want to do.
Hall of Very Good
Stop giving me wins because it's 2013 and using them to judge a player is ridiculous. And I'm not going to bother looking at the Cy Young as well because this guy pitched during the years guys like Johnson, Clemens, Martinez, etc. also pitched, some of the best ever and it's unfair to judge him solely against some of the best of all-time during the years he pitched against the baseball population, which we should we doing. And again, we've seen how votes go, I would have voted Trout MVP last year without a second though but he did not win the award others voted for - I'm not holding that over his head when he clearly put up the most value.
What I see: 3.46 ERA (7th during the years he played for pitchers with 3k+ IP), 86.1 WAR (fourth best, behind who? Clemens, Johnson, Maddux), 8.60 K/9 (third best), 1.96 BB/9 (third best), 3261.0, etc. He carried awesome rates for over three thousand innings (second best strikeout to walk ratio of all time), sorry that his totally independent wins aren't up to snuff.
pac213up
01-10-2013, 09:28 AM
First of all, we all know it's subjective. You can read a stat one way and I can read the same stat another way.
Here is how I read his stats:
I see a guy that pitched for 18 seasons and this is what I see:
3 times - won 20 games
5 times - won more than 15 games
8 times - ERA below 3.50
0 Cy Young Awards
6 time all star
216 wins
Need to add some things for the complete picture though.
*11-2 with a 2.23 ERA and a .968 WHIP (walks and hits per innings pitched) in 19 postseason starts
*4-0 with a 1.37 ERA in five elimination starts
*MVP of the 1993 NLCS with the Phillies
*Co-MVP of the 2001 World Series with the Diamondbacks
*His 4.383 strikeout-to-walk ratio is the second-best all-time
He is a lock for the HOF at some point.
HadWayTooMuch
01-10-2013, 09:41 AM
Wasnt really at you, but the other poster. I was too lazy to search for his original psot.
I agree that you don't get in based on post-season or 2/3 of the Yankees would be HOFers.
Schilling was a very good pitcher, but not a legend. 5 years of more than 15 wins to me does not look like HOF numbers.
I know you can start quoting all kinds of sabremetric stats, but I just don't see it. And 3000 strikeouts to me is a worthless stat. A strikeout is just a step better than a ground ball to third. But the ground ball to third could be a double play.
By no means do I think Welch is a HOFer, but some of his numbers are similar which is why I mentioned him.
HadWayTooMuch
01-10-2013, 09:42 AM
Stop giving me wins because it's 2013 and using them to judge a player is ridiculous. And I'm not going to bother looking at the Cy Young as well because this guy pitched during the years guys like Johnson, Clemens, Martinez, etc. also pitched, some of the best ever and it's unfair to judge him solely against some of the best of all-time during the years he pitched against the baseball population, which we should we doing. And again, we've seen how votes go, I would have voted Trout MVP last year without a second though but he did not win the award others voted for - I'm not holding that over his head when he clearly put up the most value.
What I see: 3.46 ERA (7th during the years he played for pitchers with 3k+ IP), 86.1 WAR (fourth best, behind who? Clemens, Johnson, Maddux), 8.60 K/9 (third best), 1.96 BB/9 (third best), 3261.0, etc. He carried awesome rates for over three thousand innings (second best strikeout to walk ratio of all time), sorry that his totally independent wins aren't up to snuff.
Quite simply, I still see wins as an important number. The question is, will the HOF voters see it the same way. This year they did. It might change in the future.
pac213up
01-10-2013, 09:56 AM
People need to understand that voters view 1st ballot hall of famers on a level separate from others. Schilling is a HOF but not a 1st ballot HOF. Writers that did not vote for him this year will vote for him later.
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