Bonds cheated...and no, you haven't heard THIS argument before...

[Rabbit]

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003621797

Fascinating and damning.

[flutie]

I sure hope that writer doesn't pull too many muscles with the stretching he is doing. Wow!

[Rabbit]

I sure hope that writer doesn't pull too many muscles with the stretching he is doing. Wow!

Stretching what? It's common sense, and he's 100% correct. It's physics, not opinion.

[go_steelers07]

the one small fact that the guy doesn't address (at least not what i read)....... is that others players (teams) would have figured it out a long time ago and evey player would be wearing those things or fake injuries to be able to wear them.

[go_steelers07]

Stretching what? It's common sense, and he's 100% correct. It's physics, not opinion.

i'm sorry, but what that guy is trying to describe is far from common sense. it's sophisticated mechanical engineering. and unless that guy can back up his statements with some hard (and accurate) research, i can't even begin to understand how you could just agree so easily.

[bugman9317]

I don't follow baseball a whole lot so I might be way of base with this, but the guy might actually have a good point... I am a golfer and that has a lot of the same mechanics as a baseball swing.. You are constantly trying to have the perfect swing to hit the sweet spot of the club head... If you look at a lot of the golf aids, there are quite a few that go over your arm and lock it in to create that perfect swing... These are made for practice to help memorize that swing and not be used on an actual course. I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes in a baseball swing, but if its something that locks his arm in to create a perfect swing then there might be some merit to his statement...

[trailgoat]

Interesting. The "locking mechanism" on this protective exo-skeleton is probably helpful to Bonds. I imagine the mental comfort of knowing that he is less likely to injure himself swinging is just as important as its mechanical advantage.
But, I think the author has a few flaws in his physics. Points 3. and 6. he is saying essentially the same thing: additional mass at the end of the bat/Bonds' body at impact is helpful. The problem with that hypothesis is that the ball, at impact with the bat barrel, has no clue what is on the other end of the bat. It doesn't matter. The energy has already been transferred by the swinging motion. Technically, at impact, Bonds could completely let go of the bat, and the ball would still travel just as if he were holding it.
One of the people who left a comment was curious to know the manufacturer of the device. Me too.
I just wonder why no other players are allowed to use it.

[otmack2o]

I read an article on this topic the other day. Interesting idea I suppose, but I am about sick of hearing about all of this stuff...

[go_steelers07]

is there a rule against using such devices?

[Munsonmanor]

You've got to be kidding me! If such a device existed, don't you think SOMEONE would get caught? With todays free agency and all of the different players that have played with and since left the Giants, NOBODY has said a peep? On top of that, the device would have to be totally silent so the opposing catcher and umpire didn't hear it. One sound and the Ump would want to see it. I always wondered if there was a type of eye surgery that could improve your vision to let's say 20/10? I have heard of a few players that had this naturally, but this is quite an advantage to hitters.

[tooleman]

The device Bonds is wearing is grandfathered, according to the article, meaning a player couldn't start using it today. I'm wondering though, if the thing had such an impact, why didn't anyone else start using it years ago?

[Rabbit]

i'm sorry, but what that guy is trying to describe is far from common sense. it's sophisticated mechanical engineering. and unless that guy can back up his statements with some hard (and accurate) research, i can't even begin to understand how you could just agree so easily.

I know a little something about physics, and I know a ton about kinetics. My minor in undergrad was Kinesiology, so we studied biomechanics, muscle memory, etc. The people who majored in that did so for one of three reasons.

1. To go to med school.
2. To be an athletic trainer.
3. To work for a company that makes the kind of things that Barry Bonds uses.

Suffice it to say, there are people who spend their entire careers studying the mechanics of simple movements like a baseball swing. They are able to do so ONLY because they receive funding for these studies, and who do you think funds them? I'll give you a hint...the US government doesn't give two rat turds about a baseball swing.

Everything that writer said is true. Now, if you're a Bonds apologist and want to take a knee-jerk reactionary/contrary stance, that's fine. But you don't have a leg to stand on.

[Rabbit]

Interesting. The "locking mechanism" on this protective exo-skeleton is probably helpful to Bonds. I imagine the mental comfort of knowing that he is less likely to injure himself swinging is just as important as its mechanical advantage.

Plays an important role, for sure. As important as the device? You can't say that. Because the device had to work and work well for him to have gotten the comfort from it in the first place.


But, I think the author has a few flaws in his physics. Points 3. and 6. he is saying essentially the same thing: additional mass at the end of the bat/Bonds' body at impact is helpful. The problem with that hypothesis is that the ball, at impact with the bat barrel, has no clue what is on the other end of the bat. It doesn't matter. The energy has already been transferred by the swinging motion.

And the mass of the device has already had its effect.

Technically, at impact, Bonds could completely let go of the bat, and the ball would still travel just as if he were holding it.

Not entirely true. The follow-through influences in what direction the ball travels.

One of the people who left a comment was curious to know the manufacturer of the device. Me too.
I just wonder why no other players are allowed to use it.

The writer says that Bonds was grandfathered in. And the only logical explanation for not allowing all other players to use it is that it gives them a competitive advantage. I guess if EVERYONE used it, there would no longer be an advantage, but I would imagine that baseball doesn't want to cheapen the thing that sells tickets. If there are eight home runs hit per game, it doesn't mean anything anymore.

I mean, a basket doesn't mean as much now as it did before the shot clock. Basketball is a better game for it, but that doesn't mean it would work in every sport.

[Rabbit]

You've got to be kidding me! If such a device existed, don't you think SOMEONE would get caught? With todays free agency and all of the different players that have played with and since left the Giants, NOBODY has said a peep? On top of that, the device would have to be totally silent so the opposing catcher and umpire didn't hear it.

Um, what?

Bonds wears the device right now. It's not a matter of being able to hear it. It's a more technologically advanced version of a knee brace. It's not as if he's hiding it.

[Rabbit]

The device Bonds is wearing is grandfathered, according to the article, meaning a player couldn't start using it today. I'm wondering though, if the thing had such an impact, why didn't anyone else start using it years ago?

They would have to know what it does before they would know to use it.

I mean, it looks like an elbow pad. That's the same thing as Allen Iverson's headbands. If you didn't have an issue with forehead sweat getting into your eyes, and you didn't have any interest in the fashion aspect of it, would you assume that the headband was the reason why Iverson's shot is so good?

[trailgoat]

Originally Posted by trailgoat
Interesting. The "locking mechanism" on this protective exo-skeleton is probably helpful to Bonds. I imagine the mental comfort of knowing that he is less likely to injure himself swinging is just as important as its mechanical advantage.

Plays an important role, for sure. As important as the device? You can't say that. Because the device had to work and work well for him to have gotten the comfort from it in the first place.

I can so say it. I just did. :p
I should have said "could potentially be as important as any possible mechanical advantage." You're right, I have no idea if it has a 50:50 level of importance. I was just noting that the mental aspect probably had a positive role, which you seem to agree with.
I'm not certain that the device does impart any mechanical advantage. It could. It would be nice if the author had listed the manufacturer of the device, to see if there is any supporting data from testing available.



Originally Posted by trailgoat
But, I think the author has a few flaws in his physics. Points 3. and 6. he is saying essentially the same thing: additional mass at the end of the bat/Bonds' body at impact is helpful. The problem with that hypothesis is that the ball, at impact with the bat barrel, has no clue what is on the other end of the bat. It doesn't matter. The energy has already been transferred by the swinging motion.

And the mass of the device has already had its effect.

True, the additional mass of the device has already had its effect. We just don't have an specific data to suggest that the additional mass provided by this device helps hit longer balls.
Bonds has to expend energy to carry/lift the weight of the device. Would this extra weight be just as effective if a player were to strap/tape weights to their arm? Or inject fat into their arms? I'm asking because I have no idea at what point the extra mass becomes a burden on the player.



Originally Posted by trailgoat
Technically, at impact, Bonds could completely let go of the bat, and the ball would still travel just as if he were holding it.

Not entirely true. The follow-through influences in what direction the ball travels.

True. (You are a picky one, Rabbit :D)



Originally Posted by trailgoat
One of the people who left a comment was curious to know the manufacturer of the device. Me too.
I just wonder why no other players are allowed to use it.

The writer says that Bonds was grandfathered in. And the only logical explanation for not allowing all other players to use it is that it gives them a competitive advantage. I guess if EVERYONE used it, there would no longer be an advantage, but I would imagine that baseball doesn't want to cheapen the thing that sells tickets. If there are eight home runs hit per game, it doesn't mean anything anymore.

I mean, a basket doesn't mean as much now as it did before the shot clock. Basketball is a better game for it, but that doesn't mean it would work in every sport.

Are you saying that MLB wanted to only allows Bonds an advantage?

[Rabbit]

Plays an important role, for sure. As important as the device? You can't say that. Because the device had to work and work well for him to have gotten the comfort from it in the first place.

I can so say it. I just did. :p
I should have said "could potentially be as important as any possible mechanical advantage." You're right, I have no idea if it has a 50:50 level of importance. I was just noting that the mental aspect probably had a positive role, which you seem to agree with.
I'm not certain that the device does impart any mechanical advantage. It could. It would be nice if the author had listed the manufacturer of the device, to see if there is any supporting data from testing available.

Well, a manufacturer isn't going to give you a straight answer. You don't really need that to know what the thing does anyway.



True, the additional mass of the device has already had its effect. We just don't have an specific data to suggest that the additional mass provided by this device helps hit longer balls.


Sure we do. It's not as if this has never been studied.



Bonds has to expend energy to carry/lift the weight of the device. Would this extra weight be just as effective if a player were to strap/tape weights to their arm? Or inject fat into their arms? I'm asking because I have no idea at what point the extra mass becomes a burden on the player. [/COLOR]


Re-read the article. He addresses this quite well.



Not entirely true. The follow-through influences in what direction the ball travels.

True. (You are a picky one, Rabbit :D)


I love to debate.





The writer says that Bonds was grandfathered in. And the only logical explanation for not allowing all other players to use it is that it gives them a competitive advantage. I guess if EVERYONE used it, there would no longer be an advantage, but I would imagine that baseball doesn't want to cheapen the thing that sells tickets. If there are eight home runs hit per game, it doesn't mean anything anymore.

I mean, a basket doesn't mean as much now as it did before the shot clock. Basketball is a better game for it, but that doesn't mean it would work in every sport.

Are you saying that MLB wanted to only allows Bonds an advantage?

Nope. I'm saying that the MLB saw the steroid era destroy one of its most prestigious records, and with a handful of players breaking that plateau every year, they didn't want to have that continue. So they outlawed these devices, and only those who were currently using them were allowed to continue wearing them. I supposed their could have outlawed them entirely, but then Bonds would have his doctor say he needed it, and he'd sue the MLB for not allowing him to protect himself.

I mean, do you think the NHL wanted to give only Brad Marsh and Craig MacTavish the advantage of not having to wear a bucket? It's kind of the opposite argument, but it's a matter of player comfort and the league pretty much had to allow Marsh and MacTavish to continue playing without the brain case until their career ended.

[otmack2o]

Good use of quotes fellas. I applaud you! lol

[trailgoat]

LOL, Rabbit is much better at it than I am.

[brianennis]

personally, i think that rabbit used to have greg anderson as his trainer. check his urine!!!