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tchronis24
01-23-2014, 05:46 PM
Although this all broke out a little over a year ago you might wanna read this. It really makes me sick







ROB CARR/AP
The National Sports Collectors Convention is where fraud collector Bradley Wells met with Upper Deck, he says.


A sports memorabilia dealer who pleaded guilty to mail fraud last week told the FBI he sold bogus game-used jerseys to the most prominent trading card manufacturers in the business — and the card companies, which cut up the garments and insert swathes of cloth into premium cards, were in on the scam, fully aware that they were passing along fake collectibles to consumers.

Bradley Wells told agents that buyers from Panini America, Upper Deck and Topps knew they were purchasing phony game-used jerseys to insert in the premium cards, which means thousands of collectors who thought they were buying collectibles that linked them directly to their favorite athletes may have been deceived.

"Wells was asked if the card companies knew that what he was selling to them was not game used," said a summary of a 2009 FBI interview that was included in a motion submitted to a federal court in Rockford, Ill., by Wells' attorney, Rocco Cipparone, in June. “Wells said that the card companies were too smart to put their beliefs in writing, but they knew a lot of what they were buying from resellers like Wells was not game used.

“Wells recalled a conversation he had with (an Upper Deck buyer) at the Anaheim (Calif.) National Sports Collectors Convention approximately three years ago. During the conversation, (the buyer) told Wells that Upper Deck needed eight Derek Jeter jerseys and was willing to pay between $1,000 and $1,200 each," the document continued.

"Wells told (the buyer) that he was paying between $3,500 and from Steiner Sports and Steiner Sports obtained their Jeter jerseys directly from the New York Yankees. Wells told (the buyer) that by paying only $1,200 for Jeter jerseys, Upper Deck was inviting fraud. (The buyer) said that Upper Deck knew what they were getting, but the needed the Jeter jerseys at the minimum price.”

Cipparone told the Daily News he is not aware of any federal investigations into the trading-card companies.

“Game-used cards,” first introduced in the mid-1990s, are popular with collectors because they give sports fans an opportunity to own a piece of a jersey or bat used by their favorite athletes, said Brian Gray, the owner of Leaf Trading Cards.

“Game-used jerseys have been a coveted collectible for years but not every collector has the means to pay $7,000 or $8,000 for an Ichiro (Suzuki) jersey," Gray said. "Game-used cards give collectors a way to own a piece of something from a player's career.”

Spokesmen from Upper Deck and Panini America — formerly known as Donruss — did not return calls for comment regarding the claims Wells made to the FBI. A spokesman for Topps also declined to discuss the allegations Wells made.

Gray said the document suggests his rivals had “bad judgment, not bad intentions,” but he said Panini, Upper Deck and Topps need to address the allegations.

"How come they haven't communicated this to their customers?" he asked. “Shame on these companies for not being more concerned about what they put in their products.”

FBI Special Agent Brian Brusokas and United States Postal Inspector Matthew Carlson interviewed Wells at the National Sports Collectors Convention, which was held that year in Cleveland, the summary said. The feds also gave Wells subpoenas for records for his company, Historic Auctions, and Authentic Sports Inc., a now-defunct company he owned with a dealer named Scot Monette.

Wells acknowledged he was involved in “dirtying up” jerseys and gloves to make them look game used, but said that it was Monette's idea to play “home run derby” with baseball bats in order to make them look like they had been used by major league players.

Monette denied he was involved in attempts to pass off bats as game used.

“I’ve never participated in any action like that,” he said. “If I had done anything wrong the FBI would have contacted me. I haven’t done anything inappropriate, plain and simple.”

Wells also told the feds that dealers would give kickbacks to card company buyers to thank them for purchasing memorabilia from them.

Wells, who pleaded guilty to mail fraud in Rockford, Ill., federal court on Sept. 6, was one of six memorabilia dealers indicted on fraud charges in October 2011. Four other dealers have already pleaded guilty, according to the United States Attorney's office for Northern Illinois; the sixth defendant, Eric Inselberg, is awaiting trial.

The charges stem from a five-year investigation into fraud in the sports memorabilia industry that has been conducted by the Chicago FBI and other federal agencies. In July, a grand jury indicted one-time memorabilia king Bill Mastro, the founder of Mastro Auctions, and his longtime associate Doug Allen on fraud charges. Both men have pleaded not guilty.

The indictment alleges that Mastro and Allen — once the most influential figures in the multi-billion sports memorabilia industry — routinely defrauded customers and rigged auctions. The indictment also claims that Mastro altered the world's most expensive baseball card, the T206 Honus Wagner card once owned by NHL great Wayne Gretzky.

In their 2007 book "The Card," Daily News reporters Michael O’Keeffe and Teri Thompson reported that the Wagner card now known as the Gretzky T206 Wagner had been cut from a printer’s sheet and was further trimmed by Mastro to make it appear as if it had come from a pack of cigarettes in 1909.

Wells is scheduled to be sentenced on Dec. 14. The maximum sentence for fraud is 20 years in a federal prison.

"Wells again stated he believed all the card companies knew they were buying questionable game used jerseys," Wells said, according to the interview summary, "because they were not willing to pay market price for game-used jerseys."

GoJays
01-23-2014, 05:49 PM
Glad I buy (mostly) In The Game!

texgator
01-23-2014, 05:52 PM
It doesn't make sense....if Topps/Panini/etc just wanted fake jerseys why didn't they just buy them at Dick's Sporting Goods, throw some dirt on them and put them in the cards? Why pay this yokel $1,000 a piece if they knew they were fake? Doesn't make sense.

HeritageKing
01-23-2014, 05:54 PM
I have a total of 0 game used cards in my PC.

nmculbreth
01-23-2014, 05:56 PM
It doesn't make sense....if Topps/Panini/etc just wanted fake jerseys why didn't they just buy them at Dick's Sporting Goods, throw some dirt on them and put them in the cards? Why pay this yokel $1,000 a piece if they knew they were fake? Doesn't make sense.

Plausible deniability.

Tugarpj
01-23-2014, 05:56 PM
I have a total of 0 game used cards in my PC.

I have lots and love em.

texgator
01-23-2014, 05:58 PM
Plausible deniability.

In what way? Its not like Topps provides COAs for all this stuff.

tjforce
01-23-2014, 05:59 PM
It doesn't make sense....if Topps/Panini/etc just wanted fake jerseys why didn't they just buy them at Dick's Sporting Goods, throw some dirt on them and put them in the cards? Why pay this yokel $1,000 a piece if they knew they were fake? Doesn't make sense.

Plausible deniability.

As long as they were "Guaranteed" authenticity by some other source, they figured that they could always fall back on the excuse that they didn't know they were fake.

If they fake jerseys themselves then they are more directly accountable for the fraud.

nmculbreth
01-23-2014, 06:04 PM
In what way? Its not like Topps provides COAs for all this stuff.

There is a giant leap between purchasing / using memorabilia of dubious provenance and committing outright fraud.

RatedRookie
01-23-2014, 06:11 PM
Plausible deniability.

That's my guess, too.

With Topps, it almost doesn't matter at this point. Even if every GU item was 100% authentic, Topps screws up so many basic things that I don't have enough confidence in their ability to get the right jersey in the right card to pay much of a premium. They can't even get the team logos correct on their flagship product.

I can't imagine Topps puts much more effort into putting together their relic cards than they do into answering their phones. They can spend the extra cash and be 95% sure that the right item goes in the right card, or they can word the card a certain way, cover their legal bases, and spend a lot less money making sure it's 50-50 that the right item is in a card. Seeing as, so far, there's no impact on the bottom line, I think they're doing the latter.

cekirsch129
01-23-2014, 06:14 PM
Darn, all my worthless jersey cards just became a little more worthless

thetheham
01-23-2014, 06:16 PM
Did anybody really think the Gretzky Wagner wasn't tampered with?

tchronis24
01-23-2014, 06:39 PM
I knew there was the possibility of them screwing the player or relic on a card up but this makes it just about Impossible to believe any GU card they make is real.

dhcollecting
01-23-2014, 06:42 PM
Would it be wishful thinking that only the high end player jerseys were faked? and that less know players were authentic because they could be had for cheap?

tchronis24
01-23-2014, 06:44 PM
Would it be wishful thinking that only the high end player jerseys were faked? and that less know players were authentic because they could be had for cheap?

That's what I was thinking. You also have to consider that we're talking about the big stars around 2008 or so not now.

CubKings
01-23-2014, 06:45 PM
Would it be wishful thinking that only the high end player jerseys were faked? and that less know players were authentic because they could be had for cheap?

I've thought about that scenario. But at this point with so many question marks it doesn't matter if it's Babe Ruth or Darwin Barney, relics are pretty much all bogus these days in my mind. I wonder why I even collect them anymore haha. Some do look cool, though. But still...

tchronis24
01-23-2014, 06:47 PM
I've thought about that scenario. But at this point with so many question marks it doesn't matter if it's Babe Ruth or Darwin Barney, relics are pretty much all bogus these days in my mind. I wonder why I even collect them anymore haha. Some do look cool, though. But still...

I think that the all star game jerseys are real though because they are distributed through MLB. Plus the tags have the authentication numbers.

Cubs
01-23-2014, 06:48 PM
Thats why i never went to deep into jersey cards(price wise)

ccoffee99
01-23-2014, 06:51 PM
We should all call Topps and complain about this.
Fortunately, most of the jerseys in my collection are from the All Star game and I believe that those are real.

tchronis24
01-23-2014, 06:54 PM
We should all call Topps and complain about this.
Fortunately, most of the jerseys in my collection are from the All Star game and I believe that those are real.

Same here. Most of
Mine are all star cards. I define rely agree though about confronting them on the issue through twitter and other ways.

zeeropointzeero
01-23-2014, 06:57 PM
Plausible deniability.

Exactly. They can always claim that they didn't know if the supplier claimed they were legit.

tchronis24
01-23-2014, 06:58 PM
Exactly. They can always claim that they didn't know if the supplier claimed they were legit.

Lol 4 jeter jerseys for 1200. Upper deck sounds the worst out of all of these

Tugarpj
01-23-2014, 07:01 PM
We should all call Topps and complain about this.
Fortunately, most of the jerseys in my collection are from the All Star game and I believe that those are real.

Make sure they are the right player lol. The hologram corresponds to Matt Holliday.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/G9cy1Erk7MvgW0eHGFvntSjd5_DBt5OSXlIdo5qHt5s=w1278-h464-no

ccoffee99
01-23-2014, 07:06 PM
Everyone TWEET to Topps complaining!!!!!

tonedef2oo8
01-23-2014, 07:07 PM
This has been posted seversl times, we still know. If something broke a tear ago you can bet its been posted

tchronis24
01-23-2014, 07:08 PM
Everyone TWEET to Topps complaining!!!!!

This exactly. For everyone reading this thread please tweet this out to topps. It may make more of a difference when they have 500 angry customers tweeting out at them

jmscoggin
01-23-2014, 07:09 PM
It doesn't make sense....if Topps/Panini/etc just wanted fake jerseys why didn't they just buy them at Dick's Sporting Goods, throw some dirt on them and put them in the cards? Why pay this yokel $1,000 a piece if they knew they were fake? Doesn't make sense.

Plausible deniability. Makes perfect sense. Article doesn't make my stomach turn either. I have never valued patches and have always assumed them to be bogus. I do like them as a novelty though. They look nicer than just a color parrallel of a base card.

Edit: Crap, I commented after getting to your post and now after reading the rest of the thread I see my point was already covered. Oh well.

MikeWilliamsFan
01-23-2014, 07:10 PM
Everyone TWEET to Topps complaining!!!!!

They won't do anything and don't care, trust me.

tchronis24
01-23-2014, 07:11 PM
This has been posted seversl times, we still know. If something broke a tear ago you can bet its been posted

There are a lot of people who aren't aware but thanks for sharing your thoughts I guess??

tchronis24
01-23-2014, 07:13 PM
They won't do anything and don't care, trust me.

I believe you but I've seen other issues that have been adressed after people tweeting them. Your telling me that if we got at least 70 or so people to tweet them for an explanation they wouldn't do anything?

Wrightfan85
01-23-2014, 07:19 PM
The best part is how the guy who sold the bogus jerseys seems to think he's the cleanest person in this whole thing. He's as crooked as the companies who were buying these jerseys.

Bader
01-23-2014, 07:48 PM
Same with Grey Flannel Auctions I don't know how these clowns are still in business selling known documented forged items and autographs "guaranteed" by that little pee wee herman bow tie wearing douche James Spence

fulltritty
01-23-2014, 07:56 PM
When was this article originally posted because it doesn't add up. If it came out a year ago, the article says he claims he met with Upper Deck at the National Sports Collectors Convention in Anaheim 3 years ago (adds up to 4 years). I believe the last time the convention was in Anaheim was 2006.

mfw13
01-23-2014, 08:11 PM
Anybody with half a brain has known for years that most memorabilia cards are not authentic....after all a swatch of a Mickey Mantle jersey looks exactly the same as a swatch of the pitching coach's jersey, and the pitching coach's jersey costs a lot less.

Are people really that gullible so as to think that ANY of the memorabilia in cards is what it is purported to be?

cardinalsooner
01-23-2014, 08:22 PM
I stopped buying or being interested in jersey cards quite some time ago. The first 3-5 years they were indeed very cool new cards that identified as being game used by the player on the card. When the companies began playing with the wording on the cards identifying the cards as "relics" then I said forget about it. I assume all jersey cards now are just that cards with a piece of fabric on them and most collectors feel the same I believe as noted by secondary prices.

CubKings
01-23-2014, 09:26 PM
The only relic cards I actually tend to believe are legit, are the ones most people hate the most, "player worn" ones. The cards from rookie photo shoots and stuff like that are about the only ones that seem the most legit.

Tpm2780
01-23-2014, 09:36 PM
I don't think that this proves that game used cards are fake. Unless you can actually prove that a particular card is fake then it will be considered legit. I would be more worried about older player's game used cards such as Babe Ruth or Mickey Mantle than modern players. I'm not worried at all of my game used cards in my PC as I strongly believe that they are all legit!:)

Cubs_rock21
01-23-2014, 09:44 PM
does anyone really think all these jerseys and patches are game used? Didn't fake Babe ruth Cuts make their way into Sp Legendary cuts also?

preakness
01-23-2014, 09:57 PM
This is why I only buy benchwarmers and 7-11 slurpee coins

ToppsCollector1
01-23-2014, 10:26 PM
This video always made me a bit skeptical. Thats just one reason im not into relics and stuff

Topps - Making of a Baseball Card - YouTube (http://youtube.com/watch?v=_F0BLA-3ebk)

tchronis24
01-23-2014, 11:38 PM
To be honest i really dont know what to think. It definitely bothers me though

Natitude
01-24-2014, 09:09 AM
"Wells was asked if the card companies knew that what he was selling to them was not game used," said a summary of a 2009 FBI interview that was included in a motion submitted to a federal court in Rockford, Ill., by Wells' attorney, Rocco Cipparone, in June. "

So these quotes come from a 2009 FBI interview which was used in a testimony back sometime in June 2012. So then possibly some (though not all) relic cards made prior to 2009 could be fake. That said, perhaps we collectors who do collect relic/jersey/patch cards can take solace that relic cards created post-2009 are authentic. That's how I'll see it because patch cards look sick:)! :special:

jlzinck
01-24-2014, 09:13 AM
This exactly. For everyone reading this thread please tweet this out to topps. It may make more of a difference when they have 500 angry customers tweeting out at them

Or they will just block you

Wrightfan85
01-24-2014, 09:35 AM
Why would any of the card companies comment on twitter honestly? Too many legal ramifications to do so.

Natitude
01-24-2014, 09:36 AM
Also, any coincidence that this fraudulent activity from 2005-2009 (according to court documents I looked up) made MLB step in and grant Topps an exclusive license in August 2009? It seems from what I've read that MLB was never a huge fan of Upper Deck and decided to "stick it to them" by giving Topps an exclusive license and then extending the rights to 2020.

calculusdork
01-24-2014, 09:38 AM
I have a total of 0 game used cards in my PC.

Same here.


I have lots and love em.

I do love the way they look, I just don't think they are going to stand the test of time. Just my opinion. We'll see. :)

Jayhawkaholic
01-24-2014, 09:40 AM
Baseball Cards - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssr6TEDrwcM) It's a shady business, the world of baseball cards..

jmm72271
01-24-2014, 12:12 PM
Let's face the facts, this whole what was once an innocent hobby, has turned into a billion dollar business, whenever the almighty dollar is invovled and can be made you will attract criminal activity. Then the companies get so big they forget who got them there (loyal customers). In the end the only ones that really pay is the hard working joe trying to get closer to "the dream" of being a superstar athlete. once they find out the collections they spend their hard earned money on is bogus and there is nothing they can do about it.
This hobby-business is full of crooks and lies!!!!

tchronis24
01-24-2014, 02:34 PM
:cool:So these quotes come from a 2009 FBI interview which was used in a testimony back sometime in June 2012. So then possibly some (though not all) relic cards made prior to 2009 could be fake. That said, perhaps we collectors who do collect relic/jersey/patch cards can take solace that relic cards created post-2009 are authentic. That's how I'll see it because patch cards look sick:)! :special:

If they were willing to do this just a few years ago whos to say they aren't doing it now?

Natitude
01-24-2014, 03:38 PM
:cool:

If they were willing to do this just a few years ago whos to say they aren't doing it now?

I would like to think that with MLB coming in and granting an exclusive license to one company, they were doing it in the hopes that it would streamline the hobby and MLB would have some say in the process. Even MLB's authentication program has gotten a lot better, probably the best in professional sports. And it's no coincidence that this all happened in 2009/2010, after the game-worn memorabilia scandal referenced in the original post.

Until someone can provide concrete evidence that this is still going on, I will continue to collect relics/jerseys/patches. Who I really feel bad for are those who have Derek Jeter or Ichiro game-used cards from that period. Those particular players jerseys were called out in the article.