Is Jordan Staal Passing Malkin?

[frozenntimesports]

Am I the only who's noticed Jordan Staal's higher end rookie cards like the Cup are ending higher than Malkin's?

It seems odd, but maybe the anti-European thing is kicking in.

[allhockey]

Am I the only who's noticed Jordan Staal's higher end rookie cards like the Cup are ending higher than Malkin's?

It seems odd, but maybe the anti-European thing is kicking in.

astute hockey guys have notice Staal is the better two player (I saw the Pens live here in DC and even my wife noticed Staal) his age helps and the pedigree- I just luv guys who have the skill to score shorties......

[mdb92951]

Hopefully he'll be able to play this year. He may have trouble getting a work Visa because of the arrest for underage drinking.

[mcq91]

guess that means I should stock up on his other rookies (SPA, SPX...) since they are still selling for less than Malkins? I still think Malkin is a stud and last year was an "adjustment" year to the NHL whereas Staal has been playing "North American-style" hockey his entire life. it was Malkin that won the Calder remember, NOT Staal.

[allhockey]

guess that means I should stock up on his other rookies (SPA, SPX...) since they are still selling for less than Malkins? I still think Malkin is a stud and last year was an "adjustment" year to the NHL whereas Staal has been playing "North American-style" hockey his entire life. it was Malkin that won the Calder remember, NOT Staal.

I think both players are good values right now but especially Staal- if you can pick up nice cards of either player now in late Aug or especially next month when most folks attention turns to football that would benefit you. I will be looking to stock up my showcases with both guys. The knock on Malkin is he takes stretches of games off and seems (and plays) disinterested at times. I do like Malkin's physical nature of play; he may have more of a mean streak that his "local" countryman, Ovechkin. As both a fan of game and a collector you gotta like that.........

[Rabbit]

Staal selling for more than Malkin is just more of the rampant Canadan nationalism and xenophobia. Staal is a good player, but he's not going to be that much more than he is now. If the "big three" in Pittsburgh remain with the team long-term, Staal is going to be the 3rd line center. Malkin, meanwhile, has the potential to approach, if not eclipse, Crosby as far as points scored. The difference in talent between Malkin and Staal is significant.

Staal's going to top out around 75-80pts. He just doesn't have the hands to do anything more than that. Malkin has 130+pt potential.

Canadans will always spend more on players from Canadia than they will Russians. And given that they are such a large portion of the hockey card market, they are going to skew sales prices in Staal's favor. But Malkin is clearly the better player and clearly has far, far more potential.

Long-term investment in Staal is foolish. Long-term investment in Malkin is savvy.

[andrew13]

i've said all along staal is better. the kid is amazing on d, can score shorties and breakaways with the best of them, and makes a lot of unbelievable plays. this year should be fun to see, with him catching up to the game's speed, he should have a lot more assists and i'd imagine that he will be a top 2 line player for the pens.

malkin is great, but has euroitus. he's lazy. jagr is also great, but lazy. malkin reminds me to much of jagr to root for him honestly. it still burns what jagr did years ago here.

[Rabbit]

i've said all along staal is better.

Then you've been wrong all along.

the kid is amazing on d,

He's solid on D.


can score shorties


...assuming the Pens don't acquire 3rd and 4th liners to play on the PK.

If he remains on the PK, his overall game is going to suffer (assuming you think he's a 1st or 2nd line player), because he's going to be logging too many minutes on the PK, especially if Crysby is going to continue to whine and cry - there will be a lot more penalties called against the Pens because of that.


and breakaways with the best of them,


He's nowhere near as good on the breakaway as Malkin is.


and makes a lot of unbelievable plays.


No he doesn't. Malkin is a heck of a lot more of a highlight film than Staal is. Staal works hard and scores, he's not a highlight reel.



this year should be fun to see, with him catching up to the game's speed, he should have a lot more assists and i'd imagine that he will be a top 2 line player for the pens.


He's going to have to move to wing if he wants to play on the top two lines.


malkin is great, but has euroitus.


Wow, that's a nice, bigoted remark to make.



he's lazy. jagr is also great, but lazy. malkin reminds me to much of jagr to root for him honestly. it still burns what jagr did years ago here.

So you judge Malkin based on some whacked out comparison with Jagr, not for what Malkin actually is as a player. I see.

Edit - Fixed a typo.

[kobemagee29]

Nice job rabbitt, you really put some serious thought into that reply, but can't agree on to many of your points at all. Easy to see why you were banned from the other site

[frozenntimesports]

malkin is great, but has euroitus. he's lazy.

Way to pi$$ off a good portion of the population, including me.

Why don't we drop you in the middle of Russia, not knowing the language or culture, and ask you to play an important role on a Russian team and see how you do.

I was pointing out a trend in card prices. I think Malkin may wind up being better than Ovechkin, but he will never be as flashy (I don't think).

Is Spezza better than Datsyuk? Probably not, but Spezza sells better, Spezza is Canadian, Datysuk Russian. Coincidence? I doubt it.

I see Staal developing into a 100-110 point player who will be a goal scorer, which may be why his cards are heating up, but I see Malkin as an all-world talent who rank among the best who ever played.

Keep your anti-European venom to yourself, or better yet, spew in on the other board where the children run the place... there is no place for it here

... and what exactly did Jagr do to Pittsburgh to upset you anyway?

95-96 62-87, 149
96-97 47-48, 95
97-98 35-67, 102
98-99 44-83, 127
99-00 42-54, 96
00-01 52-69, 121

The only years he had less than 100 points were the seasons he played 63 games due to injury. I wish anyone on the Islanders could be that lazy.

[Rabbit]

Nice job rabbitt, you really put some serious thought into that reply, but can't agree on to many of your points at all.

Well, it's not really a matter of agreement or disagreement. What I said is correct. There's a reason why teams saw fit to employ me as a talent evaluator, and later focused my education on a statistical analysis of NHL prospects.

And while I like Andrew13, he's a fan. Nothing more. That much is immediately obvious.


Easy to see why you were banned from the other site

You have no idea why I was banned from Beckett.

A little hint for you...the guy who banned me e-mailed me to tell me that he didn't agree that I deserved to be banned, and it was the straw that broke the camel's back - he quit as moderator that day.

I was banned because I argue and I don't back down when some yahoo makes a ridiculous argument. At Beckett, if everyone else holds one position and you hold another, it doesn't matter who is right, the only thing that matters is which opinion is more popular.

I see things as they are. Others see them as they want them to be. That's it, in a nutshell. Thanks for your concern.

[kobemagee29]

And yes silly rabbit,

[Rabbit]

*edited*.

Classy.

[andrew13]

read hockeyfights, the first board i posted on, and you'll find 10,000 people who agree with everything i just said. i don't hate euros as much as those guys, but i think that most tend to be lazy and crybabies. staal is the better player i think. short of malkin putting up 150 pts and staal having an armstrong season, it's going to take a lot to change that.

malkin is very lazy on d, and there would be games where he would just be skating around in lala land and it cost the team several times. it was very rare to catch staal out of place anywhere. malkin may score more goals, but he's not the better player. gonchar may score more goals than eaton, but with a game on the line i'd rather see eaton out there. same way, i'd rather see staal out there than malkin. also, i don't think malkin is as much of a team player as sid and jordan... i think the next offseason will determine that though. if he demands max salary, then good riddance to him. if he asks for a reduced rate to win some cups, then that will change my opinion. i just don't see it happening.

[frozenntimesports]

malkin is very lazy on d, and there would be games where he would just be skating around in lala land and it cost the team several times.

They play a different defensive system in Europe, some would say a better and more crisp version, but unless you've seen both you can't have an opinion on it.

Give it a year and he'll adapt to the U.S. system, just like Ovechkin started to in the waning days of last season and Kovalchuk did a few years ago.

You can have him for Trent Hunter or any of our bums any day.

Oh and for the record, the guys on hockeyfights.com are on the level with the other board. Why is it OK to rip on Francophones and Euros but if you made the same comments about another race it isn't. I'm really fed up with it.

And you still haven't explained your problem with Jagr, but when he was at his best you were still looking for your binky and plugging in your nite-lite.

[Rabbit]

read hockeyfights, the first board i posted on, and you'll find 10,000 people who agree with everything i just said.


1. The plural of "opinion" is not "fact."

2. That's a self-selecting sample. OF FREAKING COURSE a bunch of Don Cherry slapdicks posting on a hockey fighting board are going to be bigoted, anti-Euro windbags. That's hardly representative of the opinion of the hockey world as a whole.

*edited*

I changed two words from your quote above. Do you get it now? Do you understand why it's not okay for you to ignorantly generalize an entire ethnicity like that? That's just mindless bigotry. If you're cool with that, then fine. But I'm sure not, and it doesn't seem like others here are either.


staal is the better player i think.


Then, again, you think wrong.


short of malkin putting up 150 pts and staal having an armstrong season, it's going to take a lot to change that.

Your mind, you mean. You aren't going to see Malkin as being better than A FRICKING THIRD LINE CENTER on your favorite team until he puts up a point total that ONLY FIVE FRICKING PLAYERS IN THE HISTORY OF HOCKEY have put up, and a total that NOBODY HAS EVEN APPROACHED IN THE LAST TEN YEARS.

The funny thing is that you don't even understand how patently absurd your expectations are.

[Tim]

So "Rabbit," why didn't you just come back on here as who you were last time -- wharry? Just curious.

[BAMBAM]

Stacy, Tim , Andy etc. Don't waste your time feeding into this "person". He does nothing but troll around on here just looking for someone to argue with from the comforts of his room. The whole quoting/disecting of other people's opinions is old and tired and is only done to instigate a pissing match. Its always everyone else who is picking on him yet he gets booted from every board he joins.. Already been booted once from here and I'm sure he will get it again eventually. You wouldn't think a middle aged person would act like such an instigating child.
Whats really sad is I remember he posted on someones thread before that some weirdo he was arguing with started harassing his wife over the phone at her work. If that is a true story (tough to believe much of what he says), its pretty sad because it seems he didn't learn anything from that incident. Its one thing to run your mouth and have people pissed at you, its another when your family gets dragged into something because of your big mouth.

[BAMBAM]

Am I the only who's noticed Jordan Staal's higher end rookie cards like the Cup are ending higher than Malkin's?

It seems odd, but maybe the anti-European thing is kicking in.


I agree to a certain extent that collectors in Canada AND the US treat Euro players differently than Canadian and American players with their spending habits. I don't think its an anti-European thing as a whole with hockey collectors. It seems like people want their stuff early but they can't sustain collectors attention over time. Only Russian player I can think of that held his popularity with collectors for a long time during his career was Pavel Bure. Kovie still has a following but his stuff isn't at the level it once was or should be IMO. Ovie is now selling for about 1/2 of what Sid is and even 1/3 in some cases with newer releases across the board.

One thing that I think gets overlooked is the fact that there are not many (any ?) Russians buying hockey cards of their hometown heros on fleabay. I've shipped cards to Sweden, Germany, Finland etc. in the past but never to Russia. That obviously plays a part in the fact that they generally sell for lower money across the board than players from other countries. A guy like Lidstrom has Wings fans AND Swedes bidding on his stuff where as Kovie has Thrashers fans bidding on his stuff.

I think Malkin will sell for excellent money again once the season starts and he starts putting pucks in the net. The Pens will get a ton of national games and will probably be very successful for quite awhile. All it takes is a few highlite reel goals on ESPN (ala the Devs game last year) to get the Beckett nation to figure out Malkin is pretty good and worth buying. I'm curious to see how a great talent like Radulov will sell on a team like Nashville that may not get alot of national attention. If the NHL ever gets the marketing aspect right I think Ovie, Malkin and Kovie will get the attention they deserve with collectors if they put up the numbers they are capable of piling up.

While I think its pretty obvious that Staal was the better 2 way player last year, I think Malkin is an offensive wizard who will only get better over time. Big Daddy is right about him having to adapt because it is a different game over here. I do see what Andy is saying, although I don't think its as drastic as he puts it. Malkin did play in some games that I watched where he just disappeared and I remember posting on here after a few of them. I think everyone is entitled to an off game or a streatch where their confidence is down but someone of his talent level shouldn't disappear for an entire game.
I think he'll adapt now that he has a year under his belt. Guys like Roberts will be all over his ass if they see him giving less than 100% effort in a game.

[Rabbit]

So "Rabbit," why didn't you just come back on here as who you were last time -- wharry? Just curious.

What difference does it make what my handle is? It was never a secret who I am here or anywhere else.

[Rabbit]

Stacy, Tim , Andy etc. Don't waste your time feeding into this "person".

I see. So if you don't have the same opinion as someone else, you're a "troll" and not a person? Brilliant.

He does nothing but troll around on here


Really? *I* am the one trolling?

You're the one who picks fights with me again and again and again. You try to tell me when and where I can and can't post, and then you do things like you just did here, where you try and rally people to get behind your pathetic little crusade to get people not to like me.

Grow the hell up already.


just looking for someone to argue with from the comforts of his room.


Pot, meet kettle.



The whole quoting/disecting of other people's opinions is old and tired and is only done to instigate a pissing match.

If you don't want me to dissect your quotes, then don't make stupid remarks in the first place. NOBODY here is the least bit shy about dissecting my quotes, and you don't see me (or anyone else) whining about it.

Hell, Andrew13 didn't even whine about it, and it was HIS quotes that I dissected. You're the only one whining.

Again, grow the hell up already.


Its always everyone else who is picking on him yet he gets booted from every board he joins..


Did I say people were picking on me? I couldn't care less if they do.


Already been booted once from here

And reinstated immediately. Chris thought I was trolling. He realized I wasn't and reinstated me immediately.

It's not an issue to him, it's not an issue to me, and since it's none of your business, it sure shouldn't be an issue to you.


and I'm sure he will get it again eventually.

Why would I get suspended? I don't insult people personally. I attack arguments. You attack people. You're a bully. Nothing more.


You wouldn't think a middle aged person would act like such an instigating child.


Who said I am middle-aged?


Whats really sad is I remember he posted on someones thread before that some weirdo he was arguing with started harassing his wife over the phone at her work.


Nope. Some weirdo on eBay said he was going to start calling me at all hours of the night and was going to harrass my wife at work. He's been removed from eBay, and the FBI is currently investigating him.


If that is a true story (tough to believe much of what he says),


Why would I lie?



its pretty sad because it seems he didn't learn anything from that incident.


I learned a lot from that incident. I learned how to escalate an eBay investigation in a hurry. I learned what it takes to get someone thrown off of eBay. I learned a lot about the feedback system. And I learned a lot about lunatics.


Its one thing to run your mouth and have people pissed at you, its another when your family gets dragged into something because of your big mouth.

1. The irony of you saying that someone else has a big mouth actually got me to laugh out loud.

2. I did absolutely nothing to provoke that clown. He e-mailed and e-mailed for weeks without a response.

Since you like to talk like you know what happened in that situation, I will tell the story for anyone who's interested.

I won an auction, and I was interested in another of his auctions, so I asked about combined shipping. He responded that he didn't offer combined shipping because he knew that the items would end up in my store the next week (which was probably true), and he wouldn't make a profit. He said he wanted to sell them to separate buyers so he could make money on the shipping. I told him that was fine, that I wouldn't be buying from him again, and paid for my auctions.

He went off on me, telling me I was a sucker who bought from him before on another account, and started bragging about all the money he made, about how he pack searched and busted blasters, took out the good cards, resealed the packs and blasters and returned them, then sold the stuff on eBay. He sent me the link to an auction where he had sold a hot pack, and said that he had resealed that pack, and that the buyer was going to get a garbage auto out of it, and laughed that the guy had paid $32 for a $1 auto. He called me a bunch of names and the whole BamBam-like tantrum ensued, so I forwarded his e-mail to the buyer.

The buyer e-mailed him and asked whether the pack was factory sealed, and the seller went ballistic. He threatened me, my wife, said he was going to stalk my house, send letters to my neighbors telling them that I am a child molester, report me to the police for running a meth lab, etc. He used another account to win auctions of mine and not pay for them, and left me negatives. He e-mailed my buyers and told them a bunch of BS and told me that he'd never allow me to sell on eBay again.

Now, did I do anything to provoke that? The only thing I did was e-mail his buyer. Should I have done that? Well, I mean, that's questionable. On one hand, it was interfering with his business. On the other, it was the ethical thing to do, as I wouldn't want someone to get ripped off. I saved the guy $32 and a bunch of headache.

Bambam would like to have you believe that it was an argument I picked with the guy, but in reality it was just some loudmouthed hothead like Bambam who threw a tantrum and went off the deep end. It does not surprise me in the least that he would see the that guy as justified in his actions.

Bambam, I don't like to call names, but you are an absolute child. You're a troll, feeding off of the attention you get when you insult people. I will not feed you again. You will never get another response from me.

I'll be the adult, since you are incapable of it.

[andrew13]

oh, for the record, Kovalev was my favorite pen a few years back. why? he gave 110% and kept them in the race after jagr bailed. i still love that kovi and want to see him back in the black and gold. he would take things into his own hands too, as the flyers/habs game in '06 showed. what a beauty of an elbow on tucker.

oh, and i don't mean euro as a slur or anything, i'm just lazy and don't feel like writing european each and every time. but why don't i like "euro's"? mainly because they commit a lot of cheap shots then turtle when they get taken to task (kovi, ovie, ect, ect, ect). even kasper would do this. kovalev at least dropped his gloves instantly and went at it. kocci is hugely entertaining to watch, and seeing him down in WBS i knew he was going to be a beast. i am a fan of the older, physical hockey, as i think i remember bam saying he was too. it's a shame the game is now going to what the euro leagues have. and KD, i can't stand euro hockey. it's as bad as soccer to watch IMO.

bamsquared, roberts is probably my favorite on the team now. at the deadline i was weary of trading a dman (mainly cause ours suck), but now i'm thinking of altering my sid jersey to a roberts one.

and troll guy, i'm just going to respond to one thing... Cherry would make a 100x better comish than Bettman does. he knows a few things about the game and would keep it entertaining. about 1/3 these teams now i can't even stand to watch they're so boring, with NJ being the absolute worst. i'd rather watch paint dry or paris hilton try to act than them.

[Rabbit]

and troll guy, i'm just going to respond to one thing...

The only one trolling here is our loudmouthed, foul-tempered, internet-tough bully friend. I am debating with you, not trolling.

Cherry would make a 100x better comish than Bettman does.

If you think that, then you clearly don't understand just what a commissioner does. Don Cherry would make an AWFUL commissioner. He lacks the intelligence, patience and temper to be a commissioner. He couldn't even cut it as a coach.

He's a funny guy to have on TV because he's a loudmouth and isn't afraid to make a fool of himself. That's not a commissioner.

he knows a few things about the game


...as does Bettman.


and would keep it entertaining.


...as has Bettman.


about 1/3 these teams now i can't even stand to watch they're so boring,


That's not Bettman's fault.


with NJ being the absolute worst.

Again, that's not Bettman's fault. You can blame Scotty Bowman, the Swedes and Anatoli Tarasov for that.

[frozenntimesports]

OK, enough of the border wars. Its obvious A13 didn't mean to slur all Euros, he misspoke, as a lot of young 20-somethings do. I know I wouldn't want to be judged for my life by what came out of my mouth when I was 22 or 23.

Bammer's point about the Russians not buying their own player's cards is a good one. I've never shipped to Russia. Either their economy isn't good enough to support the hobby or they are cut off by their government. It's sad, when I try to speak on the phone with relatives back in Russia or Belarus you don't know if you are being listened to or not.

Can we all stop the pissing contest now?

I think Radulov's cards will do well, Nashville started caring about the Predators when they almost lost them. Perhaps they will still care in October and that team should contend this year, even without Kariya.

[BAMBAM]

You will never get another response from me.




Promise ? If that is the case, than you have made me the happiest man on this board

[frozenntimesports]

Don't worry Bammer, you're still my homey.

[BAMBAM]

Don't worry Bammer, you're still my homey.

Thanks Big Daddy :)!

[mcq91]

yikes, what happened to this thread? I'm away for a day and it's 3 pages of garbage! thank you KD, sorry KMD now, for trying to maintain some order here. I too hope Radulov is the real deal and can keep the preds competitive after their devastating off-season. other folks must be thinking the same thing given what his cup redemptions are going for on the bay. still concur that Malkin will continue to improve as he adjusts to "NHL" hockey. don't forget about Kopitar out west either! and the avs look like contenders again with Sakic, Smyth, Wolski, Stastny...

[allhockey]

yikes, what happened to this thread? I'm away for a day and it's 3 pages of garbage! thank you KD, sorry KMD now, for trying to maintain some order here. I too hope Radulov is the real deal and can keep the preds competitive after their devastating off-season. other folks must be thinking the same thing given what his cup redemptions are going for on the bay. still concur that Malkin will continue to improve as he adjusts to "NHL" hockey. don't forget about Kopitar out west either! and the avs look like contenders again with Sakic, Smyth, Wolski, Stastny...

ditto here- thought this was an excellent topic and the tread started out ok, but........guess this just demostrates the pure passion and dedication of the average hockey fan, even in August- just guess we need some games......

[frozenntimesports]

yikes, what happened to this thread? I'm away for a day and it's 3 pages of garbage! thank you KD, sorry KMD now, for trying to maintain some order here. I too hope Radulov is the real deal and can keep the preds competitive after their devastating off-season. other folks must be thinking the same thing given what his cup redemptions are going for on the bay. still concur that Malkin will continue to improve as he adjusts to "NHL" hockey. don't forget about Kopitar out west either! and the avs look like contenders again with Sakic, Smyth, Wolski, Stastny...

Hard to remember Kopitar when he doesn't start until 10:35 EST. I catch a 5 AM bus, hard to justify staying up past 10 for anything not called "The Bronx is Burning" :)

[Rabbit]

yikes, what happened to this thread? I'm away for a day and it's 3 pages of garbage! thank you KD, sorry KMD now, for trying to maintain some order here. I too hope Radulov is the real deal and can keep the preds competitive after their devastating off-season. other folks must be thinking the same thing given what his cup redemptions are going for on the bay. still concur that Malkin will continue to improve as he adjusts to "NHL" hockey. don't forget about Kopitar out west either! and the avs look like contenders again with Sakic, Smyth, Wolski, Stastny...

The Preds aren't going to be the team they were last year, but given how pathetic their division is, and the relative depth they still have (everyone forgets that they still have Arnott, Legwand, Erat, Dumont, Sullivan and Radulov...that's a deeper forward corps than Detroit has), they should remain competitive. If a couple teams in the Pacific slack off, and the Northwest beats up on itself like it has the past couple years, the Preds might actually backdoor their way into the playoffs.

The Avs are looking plush. They had two needs in the offseason and addressed both about as well as they could have. They also signed Jaroslav Hlinka, and that signing has the potential to be huge. He was the leading scorer in the Czech league last year, was signed for ~$500k, and was signed as a favor to Milan Hejduk.

Man, I would LOVE to see the Preds win the Central. I would LOVE to see Wings fans cry about that.

[andrew13]

anyone see what that one guy did to the BJ's? that kind of stuff is why i don't like russian players. he was mad he got a 2 way deal, so he bolts after signing a contract to go back to the super league.

i like the preds a lot. i'd like to see them overtake the wings, but they got gutted and i don't see it happening.

[Rabbit]

anyone see what that one guy did to the BJ's? that kind of stuff is why i don't like russian players. he was mad he got a 2 way deal, so he bolts after signing a contract to go back to the super league.

i like the preds a lot. i'd like to see them overtake the wings, but they got gutted and i don't see it happening.

See, they got gutted, but they still have a quality team.

Erat-Legwand-Dumont
Sullivan-Arnott-Radulov
Gelinas-Bonk-Ortmeyer
Hordichuk-Nichol-Tootoo

Zidlicky-Hamhuis
Suter-deVries
Weber-Klein

Mason
Rinne/Ellis

That's not a bad team. Two good scoring lines, a really solid checking line, and an adequate 4th line. Defense is loaded with talent.

Compare that with:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Samuelsson
Holmstrom-Hudler-Cleary
Maltby-Draper-Drake
Ellis-Filppula-Grigorenko

Lidstrom-Rafalski
Ference-Kronwall
Lilja-Chelios

Hasek
Nogood

Yeah, Detroit's top two forwards are better than Nashville's top two (although Nashville has both Erat and Radulov, who have the talent and potential to make Datsuck and Iron Lung look like chopped liver). Yeah, Detroit's top two defensemen are better than Nashville's top two (though Zidlicky remains one of the most underrated defensemen in the NHL). And yeah, Detroit's starter is probably better than Nashville's.

But Nashville absolutely OBLITERATES Detroit as far as depth is concerned. That isn't even in question.

We'll see how things play out over the course of a season, but I wouldn't count Nashville out of the division title talks, as weird as that sounds.

[frozenntimesports]

See, they got gutted, but they still have a quality team.

Erat-Legwand-Dumont
Injury, injury, and can you say injury
Sullivan-Arnott-Radulov
I love this line, not sure Arnott is the best center for those jackrabbits, I would swap Arnott down to line three and bring Bonk up to line 2.
Gelinas-Bonk-Ortmeyer
Nice grind line, Bonk is an underrated scorer. Its also cool to call a line the Bonk's adventure line.
Hordichuk-Nichol-Tootoo
More pi$$ and vinegar, but every team needs it.

Zidlicky-Hamhuis
Good unit, neither will be in the top pair at the end of the year
Suter-deVries
But Ryan Suter will, De Vries is a nice d-man too
Weber-Klein
Future Scott Stevens type in Weber, will pair nice with Suter in the #1 unit

Mason
Can he really be a number one?
Rinne/Ellis
Because I don't believe in either of these guys.

That's not a bad team. Two good scoring lines, a really solid checking line, and an adequate 4th line. Defense is loaded with talent.

While defense wins championship, you still need to score, and if that top line falters, I don't know if there is enough to carry the team without it.

Compare that with:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Samuelsson
Second best passer in Datsyuk with a cold blooded scorer in Zetterberg
Holmstrom-Hudler-Cleary
Holmstrom=Ryan Smyth, We have been waiting for Jiri Hudler to duplicate his European stats, this could be the year, and Dan Cleary was good enough to be a top ten draft pick and is still a developing power forward.
Maltby-Draper-Drake
Not much more than a grind line here, but Kris Draper can score
Ellis-Filppula-Grigorenko
Valterri Filpulla is an offensive machine in the making, but he doesn't have much help on his wings. Don't rule out a trade, I hear Zherdev can be had for Jimmy Howard.

Lidstrom-Rafalski
Best defenseman in the Western Conference, meet the best defenseman in the Eastern Conference
Ference-Kronwall
Its unfair for a team to have a second pair this good. A guy they talked about as the next Scott Stevens in Ference (unlikely at this point) paired with the next Lidstrom (also not likely, but pretty close)
Lilja-Chelios
Chelios is 146 years old or something, but he can still play, I don't know much about Lilja, and since I follow the Euro-leagues, that should tell you what you need to know. In all fairness, I didn't think much of Henrik Lundqvist either, so I've been wrong.

Hasek
One of the best when healthy.
Nogood
This proves to me that you are still a novice when it comes to hockey analysis. Chris Osgood was goaltender on two Stanley Cup winners and was the only thing that kept the Islanders from losing 60 games a season in the days of Mad Mike. Maybe he isn't the next Patrick Roy, but step off my boy!

Yeah, Detroit's top two forwards are better than Nashville's top two (although Nashville has both Erat and Radulov, who have the talent and potential to make Datsuck and Iron Lung look like chopped liver).
Someone ate their Wheaties this morning. Pavel Datsyuk is a #1 centerman in the NHL who can score goals or pass, making him much more dangerous than Peter Forsberg, who preferrs to pass. Henrik Zetterberg is entering his prime and is one of the most cold-blooded snipers out there.

Yeah, Detroit's top two defensemen are better than Nashville's top two (though Zidlicky remains one of the most underrated defensemen in the NHL).

Detroit's top two are better than any tandem in the NHL, but if they are smart they will split Lidstrom and Rafalski up because Ference and Kronwall are both first pairing quality defenders.

And yeah, Detroit's starter is probably better than Nashville's.
... and Detroit's backup is definitely better than Nashville's starter.


But Nashville absolutely OBLITERATES Detroit as far as depth is concerned. That isn't even in question.

We'll see how things play out over the course of a season, but I wouldn't count Nashville out of the division title talks, as weird as that sounds.



They can win the division but they won't do anything in the playoffs, not this year, not without Kariya.

[mcq91]

the signing of Ference sure went under the radar. I didn't even realize until you mentioned it KD. yeah, the guy has kinda been a disappointment, but if he can be reborn it's in Detroit and they can sure use his toughness and big hits!! now if they can just sign Forsberg to play on the 2nd line with Filppula and whoever, they'll be right back in the Conf finals!!

[Rabbit]

They can win the division but they won't do anything in the playoffs, not this year, not without Kariya.

It would have been nice if you had formatted your response properly so that I didn't have to go back and cut and paste to respond to you. Oh well.


Erat-Legwand-Dumont

Injury, injury, and can you say injury

Copout, copout, copout. Players get injured. BFD.


Sullivan-Arnott-Radulov
I love this line, not sure Arnott is the best center for those jackrabbits, I would swap Arnott down to line three and bring Bonk up to line 2.
Gelinas-Bonk-Ortmeyer
Nice grind line, Bonk is an underrated scorer. Its also cool to call a line the Bonk's adventure line.
Hordichuk-Nichol-Tootoo
More pi$$ and vinegar, but every team needs it.

Zidlicky-Hamhuis
Good unit, neither will be in the top pair at the end of the year

Zidlicky clearly will.


Suter-deVries
But Ryan Suter will, De Vries is a nice d-man too


Suter could very well develop into a 1st pairing guy this year. He's not going to unseat Zidlicky just yet though.


Weber-Klein
Future Scott Stevens type in Weber, will pair nice with Suter in the #1 unit

Mason
Can he really be a number one?


I think he already showed that he can.


Rinne/Ellis
Because I don't believe in either of these guys.


Rinne's young, loaded with talent, and has done well in his transition to the NA game. Ellis is a more than capable backup.


While defense wins championship, you still need to score, and if that top line falters, I don't know if there is enough to carry the team without it.

Heh, the same can be said of the Red Wings, but in the Preds' case, there actually are 2nd line forwards who score.

Basically, your argument just doesn't fit this situation under the circumstances.



Compare that with:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Samuelsson
Second best passer in Datsyuk with a cold blooded scorer in Zetterberg


Yep. And the only two legitimate scoring-line forwards on the entire team are paired up on one line with a loser. Or, you can split them up and have them play with two losers each. Your choice.


Holmstrom-Hudler-Cleary
Holmstrom=Ryan Smyth,


Wow. You couldn't possibly be any more wrong. Holmstrom is not physical. Holmstrom cannot skate. Holmstrom does not play defense.

Holmstrom is a guy the Wings prop up in front of the net on the PP because he scores garbage goals (and garbage goals count the same as pretty ones, so nobody's taking anything away from him for that). That's **ALL** he's good for. Go to any Wings forum where there are actual Wings fans who know hockey, and you will hear nothing but complaints about this guy whenever he plays a shift at ES.



We have been waiting for Jiri Hudler to duplicate his European stats, this could be the year,


...which is what Wings fans have been saying for years...

Do you want to rest your Stanley Cup hopes on a "could be"?



and Dan Cleary was good enough to be a top ten draft pick


So was Pavel Brendl. You want him on the 2nd line of your contending team?



and is still a developing power forward.


He's 30 years old. He's not developing. He is what he is. He had a career year last year, and he will not replicate it.

He's Boyd Devereaux 2.0




Maltby-Draper-Drake
Not much more than a grind line here, but Kris Draper can score


No he can't. He had a 40pt career year two years ago, and has dropped off since. The entire line is in a steep decline, and last year Maltby's game fell off as badly as anyone's in the NHL. He's completely useless.




Ellis-Filppula-Grigorenko
Valterri Filpulla is an offensive machine in the making,


No he isn't. He was drafted to be a 3rd liner, and that's what he is. He's never scored more than 20g at any level, and he's not capable of anything more than that.



but he doesn't have much help on his wings.


Grigorenko is a better player than Filppula is.


Don't rule out a trade, I hear Zherdev can be had for Jimmy Howard.


I doubt that.


Lidstrom-Rafalski
Best defenseman in the Western Conference, meet the best defenseman in the Eastern Conference


Rafalski? Best defenseman in the Eastern Conference?

Defensively, he was average at best. Offensively, he was in the top 10 in defenseman scoring in the East. He's a good defenseman, but not even the blindest Wings homer has called him the best defenseman in the East.




Ference-Kronwall
Its unfair for a team to have a second pair this good. A guy they talked about as the next Scott Stevens in Ference (unlikely at this point) paired with the next Lidstrom (also not likely, but pretty close)


Ference is nothing special. And Kronwall has been just awful. For you to compare him to Lidstrom...is this Andrew13 I am talking to?

They don't even play the same style. It's like saying that Robyn Regehr is the next Paul Coffey.


Lilja-Chelios
Chelios is 146 years old or something, but he can still play, I don't know much about Lilja, and since I follow the Euro-leagues, that should tell you what you need to know. In all fairness, I didn't think much of Henrik Lundqvist either, so I've been wrong.


Lilja has been better than Kronwall so far. He's been in the NHL for six years now. He played for Florida before he came to Detroit, if that helps. Stay-at-home defenseman who plays without any physicality whatsoever.

Chelios is a solid #6 at this point in his career (and my current favorite NHLer). I hope he plays another 10 years.


Hasek
One of the best when healthy.
Nogood
This proves to me that you are still a novice when it comes to hockey analysis.


Wow.

I spent three years scouting the OHL, then a year in the Wings organization before working as a scout for a major scouting publication (watch the Draft sometime...the publication I scouted/wrote for is constantly cited). After that, I left for college, where I received funding to conduct a statistical analysis of the NHL Draft, the likes of which had never been done before or since.

But yeah, I don't know anything about hockey analysis.

*rolls eyes*


Chris Osgood was goaltender on two Stanley Cup winners


He was the starter on one Stanley Cup winner, and that was the only playoff season in which the team was able to overcome his constant errors and his tendency to lose focus late in games.



Someone ate their Wheaties this morning. Pavel Datsyuk is a #1 centerman in the NHL who can score goals or pass, making him much more dangerous than Peter Forsberg, who preferrs to pass.


Peter Forsberg is the best two-way player of his generation. Datsyuk is a one-dimensional #1 center whose career high in goals is equal to that of Forsberg's career high. Basically, he's no more of a goal scorer than Peter Forsberg was, except Forsberg was a much better passer, was more physical (which isn't saying much...Crysby is more physical than Datsyuk), and ACTUALLY SHOWED UP IN THE PLAYOFFS.

Datsyuk is a good player in the regular season. When things matter, Datsyuk folds like a wet napkin. He had a decent playoff year last year, but prior to that, he had scored a total of 15 playoff points over the course of four playoff years.



Henrik Zetterberg is entering his prime and is one of the most cold-blooded snipers out there.

Zetterberg isn't a sniper. He's a finesse player.

Jason Freaking Pominville scored more goals than Zetterberg did last year.



Detroit's top two are better than any tandem in the NHL,


You mean other than Pronger and Neidermayer, Phaneuf and Regehr, Gonchar and Whitney.


but if they are smart they will split Lidstrom and Rafalski up because Ference and Kronwall are both first pairing quality defenders.


Dude, seriously, either you are smoking crack, or you have Brad Ference confused with Andrew Ference.

Brad Ference has played FIVE NHL GAMES since 03-04. During the lockout, he wasn't able to catch on with a team in the better Euro leagues like the SEL, FNL or RHL. He wasn't even able to catch on with the second-tier leagues in Slovakia, Switzerland and the Czech Republic, or even the third-tier league in Germany. No, he played in France.

If he's a 1st pairing defenseman in the NHL, then I am a lock hall of famer.

And Kronwall is in no way 1st pairing-caliber. You've clearly based your opinion on the hype you read or some Beckett article and not on actually seeing him play. I had a buddy who was the absolute biggest Kronwall slapdick in the world, talked about him as being a "solid NHL defenseman" during his rookie year, despite that clearly not being the case. Even he has backed off of the predictions of greatness, because Kronwall has just been plain disappointing.

His offense isn't there yet, his defense is horrible, and he's too afraid to get injured to play with the physicality that got him drafted in the first place.

[Rabbit]

... and Detroit's backup is definitely better than Nashville's starter.


That's not even remotely true. Not even close.

Methinks you don't have much of an idea who Chris Mason is and what he did last year.

Here's a hint - the Preds didn't let Vokoun go because of money. Look at his numbers. He put up better numbers than Miika Freaking Kiprusoff last year.

I was impressed when you identified Eric Fehr as a guy with good investment potential. I even told my wife that here was a guy who gets it. But after this, I am starting to think that you just looked at where he was drafted and the hype that surrounded him, and not anything based on his actual game itself.

[frozenntimesports]

Brad Ference has played FIVE NHL GAMES since 03-04. During the lockout, he wasn't able to catch on with a team in the better Euro leagues like the SEL, FNL or RHL. He wasn't even able to catch on with the second-tier leagues in Slovakia, Switzerland and the Czech Republic, or even the third-tier league in Germany. No, he played in France.

If he's a 1st pairing defenseman in the NHL, then I am a lock hall of famer.

And Kronwall is in no way 1st pairing-caliber. You've clearly based your opinion on the hype you read or some Beckett article and not on actually seeing him play. I had a buddy who was the absolute biggest Kronwall slapdick in the world, talked about him as being a "solid NHL defenseman" during his rookie year, despite that clearly not being the case. Even he has backed off of the predictions of greatness, because Kronwall has just been plain disappointing.

OK, you caught me, I screwed up and was discussing the wrong Ference. My bad.

I don't really put much stock in the Beckett articles, I know of Kronwall from the Euro-leagues.

I was actually a player back in the 90s, not much of one, and when I saw Kronwall play in the Euro leagues (on TV) I was impressed.

The reason Fipulla never scored a lot in the Euro-leagues is because the league is much more defensive. There is a lot more low class stuff that goes on because the players are discouraged from policing themselves. Did you see Ovechkin or Kovalchuk the first season they were here, it looked like they had gotten out of prison.

I'm not questioning your credentials... well not much, I was prodding you a bit with the Wheaties comment and it clearly worked :D.

... and you went after my boy Osgood, who was one of the most popular Islanders in his tragically brief tenure (thanks Mad Mike).

... as for Eric Fehr, you can see the natural ability is there, as are the tools, I just wonder how long it will take him to develop. Power forwards take time, sometimes a lot of time like Cleary did.

Dan Cleary, 35 goals this year. Write it down.

... and since you are such a hockey wiz, why don't you join our fantasy league, you should be able to crush us mortals... but I doubt it.

Cheers!!!

[frozenntimesports]

I could be too biased toward Euros too. But I'm willing to recognize that. :)!

[mcq91]

KD,
where did you hear the zherdev for howard rumor? with macdonald shipped off to Boston, I thought that cleared the way for howard once hasek finally retires. would they sell off their future in net for a guy like zherdev? or is there someone else in the ranks? certainly not Liv??

[Rabbit]

OK, you caught me, I screwed up and was discussing the wrong Ference. My bad.

Wow, someone screws up and has the maturity to admit they were wrong? I am shocked. I know of a certain someone here who could learn a lesson from that. Kudos to you.


I don't really put much stock in the Beckett articles,


Heh, well, good. I read their review of the 06-07 rookie class. Just awful. IIRC, it wasn't signed. The pathetic attempts at humor seemed like Al, but the analysis was bad, even for him.



I know of Kronwall from the Euro-leagues.

I was actually a player back in the 90s, not much of one, and when I saw Kronwall play in the Euro leagues (on TV) I was impressed.

He was impressive in the Euro leagues. Which is why he was hyped, and that in turn caused the Wings slapdicks to verbally fellate him non-stop. But he hasn't been good in the NHL. He hasn't made that transition at all.

Don't get me wrong, I know full well that it can take defensemen longer to make the leap, but the things he screws up are not rookie mistakes. He's just not an NHL-caliber player, not a star anyway. He'd be a star back in Sweden, but he just doesn't have the game to do it in the NHL.

We've seen it before from guys like Pavel Rosa and Jiri Dopita. They (and Kronwall) can play in the NHL, but they aren't of the same stature that they were/are over across the pond.


The reason Fipulla never scored a lot in the Euro-leagues is because the league is much more defensive. There is a lot more low class stuff that goes on because the players are discouraged from policing themselves. Did you see Ovechkin or Kovalchuk the first season they were here, it looked like they had gotten out of prison.

See, when I said the Wings drafted Filppula to be a 3rd liner, I didn't mean that the book on him was that he was 3rd line-caliber. I meant exactly what I said. They drafted him with the intention of developing him into a 3rd liner. That's the role he's suited for. He's not offensively gifted. He doesn't have the hands to do the things with the puck that he'd have to do to be a legitimate scoring line player. He's an interesting player, and as he develops and grows into his role in the NHL, he should become more and more useful. But he's not ever going to be a star or a big time scorer. He's a 3rd liner, and that's okay.

The player he reminds me of, honestly, is Steve Konowalchuk. Not quite as good defensively (yet, anyway), but similar in ability and similar role.



I'm not questioning your credentials... well not much, I was prodding you a bit with the Wheaties comment and it clearly worked :D.

I'm used to it.



... and you went after my boy Osgood, who was one of the most popular Islanders in his tragically brief tenure (thanks Mad Mike).

We're probably talking about two different Osgoods. His weakness has always been between the ears, and he just doesn't have the mental toughness it takes to be a starter in Detroit. I saw him cry (literally) too many times over what the media and fans said about him, and saw him blow playoff games too many times because he just couldn't maintain his focus to ever have any use for him as a player. Then when he faked that knee injury to avoid playing the Avs in 1999...I lost any respect I might have had for him. You just don't do that.

Unless you're Dominik Hasek. And then you still don't do it.

But then, when he was in St Louis and NYI, he wasn't under that same microscope and he didn't suck quite as hard or as often.



... as for Eric Fehr, you can see the natural ability is there, as are the tools, I just wonder how long it will take him to develop. Power forwards take time, sometimes a lot of time like Cleary did.

Dan Cleary, 35 goals this year. Write it down.

Dan Cleary, 13 goals this year. Then playing for Phoenix in 08-09.



... and since you are such a hockey wiz, why don't you join our fantasy league, you should be able to crush us mortals... but I doubt it.

I was in a keeper league once. Won it all the first two years, then left for lack of challenge. They split my team into two for year 3. Those two teams were the champion and runner up in year 3. League folded.

If it's a keeper league, I am in. If not, I wouldn't be able to stay interested.



Cheers!!!

Fun battle, for sure.

And see, everyone? I am not a complete bastard. Pompous, sure. But KD and I showed each other some respect and got it in return.

[Rabbit]

KD,
where did you hear the zherdev for howard rumor? with macdonald shipped off to Boston, I thought that cleared the way for howard once hasek finally retires. would they sell off their future in net for a guy like zherdev? or is there someone else in the ranks? certainly not Liv??

Jim Howard took a huge step back in 06-07. After what he did at Maine and the near-dominant year he had in the AHL in 05-06, the Wings expected big things from him in 06-07. He choked. Mediocre year, but he didn't play like the guy who was making the Wings question whether they would re-sign Hasek after 06-07. His play in 06-07 left the Wings with huge questions in net.

Liv's now 27 and just signed in Sweden, IIRC. There was a time when he was the heir apparent in Detroit. That ship has sailed.

There is nothing between the pipes in the Wings' system, and Holland has made it obvious that he's going to buy his goalies rather than develop them (and with good reason - other than Datsyuk and Zetterberg, he hasn't produced any other quality NHLers through the Draft since taking the reigns in 1998 - Fischer was on his way, but his career was cut short)

[frozenntimesports]

21-21-3, .911 SV, 2.70 GAA with three shutouts doesn't seem that bad to me. I heard the Howard rumor from a friend who works at TSN. I won't name drop because it would cut me off when I need a scoop for an article here and there. I'm going to be freelancing a bit again as a sports columnist in the area and might pick up a column in Beckett, I'm crossing my fingers on for that one, it would be a big break.

Detroit could deal Howard and possibly pick up Marc Denis who seems to have worn out his welcome in Tampa. They could go with Hasek again and deal for Theodore or Raycroft or any number of 1A goaltenders that are out there... except I think Theodore has another Hart and Vezina in him, but I'm biased. :D

[Rabbit]

21-21-3, .911 SV, 2.70 GAA with three shutouts doesn't seem that bad to me.

It's mediocre, and it's especially disappointing when his line the year before was 27-6-2, .910, 2.58

I heard the Howard rumor from a friend who works at TSN. I won't name drop because it would cut me off when I need a scoop for an article here and there.

Heh, I broke the Bourque-to-Colorado trade on Rivals.com back in the day. My editor and I had a source high within the Avs' organization. Didn't bother him then, but apparently he got into some hot water when my editor ran with the Blake-to-Colorado talks two days before the deal got done. Lacroix HATED loose lips.

Stick to your guns. If someone asks for your source and says they won't believe you if you don't name your source, screw them. Let them not believe you. Having a good source is worth a lot more than...well, you have a source and you already know this.

I'm going to be freelancing a bit again as a sports columnist in the area and might pick up a column in Beckett, I'm crossing my fingers on for that one, it would be a big break.

I look forward to reading your stuff, and Beckett would be lucky to have you.


Detroit could deal Howard and possibly pick up Marc Denis who seems to have worn out his welcome in Tampa.

Denis would be absolutely incredible in Detroit. He'd finally live up to those lofty expectations coming out of junior (though, I have to say, for a year or two there back in CBus, he was a top ten-ish goalie if you judged him based purely on ability and performance rather than numbers).

They could go with Hasek again and deal for Theodore or Raycroft or any number of 1A goaltenders that are out there... except I think Theodore has another Hart and Vezina in him, but I'm biased. :D

The Avs aren't trading JoeTed, and there would really be no reason for them to do it. Wall is garbage, Weiman is an AHL backup, and JoeTed is a positive in the locker room and still has the potential to snap out of his funk and be the dominant goalie he was a couple years back. The cap hit really isn't an issue for the Avs, and thankfully management realizes that.