Question about commissions!

[Doug]

Hey all, I was hoping to get some input from you guys about commissions. I've paid an artist to do a commission for the first time so I'm unsure about what is the proper etiquette.

I'm not sure how much input the customer should be allowed to provide before/during the creation process? For example, an 8x10 drawing of 1 character, no background, inked with a bit of colour...

Do most artists give the customer an opportunity to give their input on any alterations (major OR minor) between the pencilling and inking process? I'm just curious what to expect.

Thanks!

[Thom4348]

I would like to know this as well...

[pinhead767]

Hey all, I was hoping to get some input from you guys about commissions. I've paid an artist to do a commission for the first time so I'm unsure about what is the proper etiquette.

I'm not sure how much input the customer should be allowed to provide before/during the creation process? For example, an 8x10 drawing of 1 character, no background, inked with a bit of colour...

Do most artists give the customer an opportunity to give their input on any alterations (major OR minor) between the pencilling and inking process? I'm just curious what to expect.

Thanks!

Depends on the artist really. Some of them will send pics of every step of the process. Some don't. That's been my experience anyway.

[Fenian95]

For Mary Bellamy I always get a great deal of input, and she doesn't mind sending a pic of the pencil work before inking/marker/etc. Very pleasant to work with :)

[nabzy28]

I've had over 25 commissions done. I think you're probably just best communicating with the artist and letting them know what you want and getting their feedback.

I've done as little as sending them a character and letting them come up with everything else to sending character and costume that I want them in... all the way to actually creating .jpg photo references with extremely detailed notes along side describing what I want done.

I have found that it never hurts to send along notes detailing what you'd prefer or want the general layout to be. When I do so, I always ask for the artists own opinion and feedback on it. It's worked out very well for me.

I am actually hoping a few of the artists will give their thoughts on this as well. I know I surprised a couple of them with my most recent request and how much detail and specifics I want to have done.

[Spider-Fan]

It really does depend on the specific artist. Like in any occupation, each artist has a certain way of doing things. I've worked with artists that insisted on me providing a lot of specifics and artists that refused such detailed instruction, and obviously everything in between. Honestly, that is something you should have discussed with the artist PRIOR to sending payment. Anyway, I'm sure everything will work out fine. Just contact the artist right away and let them know you have some specifics in mind, etc...

[Doug]

We did discuss it a bit, so I'm not totally in the dark about this particular commission. I was just curious about what to expect in general. I appreciate all the feedback, it really helps! (I should say that the artist did give me the impression i could give input between pencil and ink, and when I tried to, they said they didn't really want to change it haha, no biggie but that's what spawned this thread sorta)

[Spider-Fan]

Well... That isn't cool. I mean, why bother sending the pencils for approval if you are unwilling to make changes? Regardless, I'm sure you'll be happy with the final work. Most of these guys (and gals) know what they are doing.

[ashelton]

Nothing really new or innovative here, but since artist input was requested:

Refusing to change something on a commission is odd... unless it was really cheap. There've been plenty of times where I would rather not have had the extra work, but that's what the approval scans are for so. Sometimes I'll respond with some things to consider for why I think the changes wouldn't be for the best, but that has more to do with materials, compositions, etc. than laziness or not wanting to change something just because I liked it. And in the end, if they still want me to do it, I will. If I gave you a stupid-good deal, though, that does change things a bit.

I've done it a ton of different ways, but now I show pencils. Sometimes really rough pencils, more like gesture drawings, to start. If they can't figure out what they're looking at, the approval process needs more input beyond poses/composition (eg. if I'm drawing a costume correctly) then they get more refined pencils. From there I might ask clarifying questions but I don't tend to show progress... mostly because the steps blend - I'll start coloring on some areas even while I'm still working out some parts in pencil - and things like my early inks won't give an accurate representation of what I'm doing at all.

As for input... the more you start with, the better. Well, until you start telling me what angle to have an arm at, in degrees, and that it should be morning light and the characters should be east-facing and whatnot. Then I'm going to tell you as nicely as possible that I reconsidered your commission because experience says you're going to be a pain every step of the way. Okay, I don't SAY that part, but yeah. If you find me costume references first thing, I LOVE it. If you have a set idea in mind before we start, that's important. If your idea is based on something, don't make me find it myself. Otherwise, when I give you the sketch, my general request is that if you do want changes you be specific. If you don't like something, I want to know what you want different because I hate twenty questions. I think you'll notice that the main theme here is "I'll happily accommodate you, just don't waste my time."

For good measure, here's a collage I made before. These are pretty much exactly what the commissioners saw, though they're all more refined than some roughs I send out.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g214/perfectkismet/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/dc-commissions_zps15940226.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/perfectkismet/media/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/dc-commissions_zps15940226.jpg.html)

Wanna see as bad as it gets? If this guy hadn't worked with me before I think he wouldn't have given me the greenlight at this one :D This is seriously all he saw along the way!

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g214/perfectkismet/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/ap1-wip1_zps1269dd44.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/perfectkismet/media/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/ap1-wip1_zps1269dd44.jpg.html)
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g214/perfectkismet/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/ap1-2_zps4d922b6a.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/perfectkismet/media/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/ap1-2_zps4d922b6a.jpg.html)

Mostly the roughest sketches are because I'm anticipating changes, though - the buyer wasn't very detailed or I'm trying something different. It really makes it easier for everyone involved to not stress about going back and forth a bit, even starting completely over.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g214/perfectkismet/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/ap-zoltare-wip1_zps640f5483.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/perfectkismet/media/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/ap-zoltare-wip1_zps640f5483.jpg.html) http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g214/perfectkismet/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/ba51fd41-b656-4b26-b3e1-b5b86b6d0503_zps68fc7c38.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/perfectkismet/media/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/ba51fd41-b656-4b26-b3e1-b5b86b6d0503_zps68fc7c38.jpg.html)http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g214/perfectkismet/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/ap-zoltar_zps94db7ac9.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/perfectkismet/media/Cards/artist%20exclusives%20proofs%20returns%20etc/ap-zoltar_zps94db7ac9.jpg.html)

So there's me, wordy as usual :)!

[Doug]

ashelton, you sound VERY fair and good to work with.

I don't want to give the impression that i am unhappy with the piece i'm getting done. He's a really nice guy and he's been keeping in touch with me very often. I think the only issue i had was simply not knowing how things are normally done by others.

I asked for a particular character, and provided the artist with a private link to a page on my website with about 15 or so pieces that i like and told him a few in particular that i really liked, then gave him a general idea of a pose based on a few other pictures. That was sorta it. I didn't get overly detailed, nor was i overly vague i don't think. He mentioned that he usually sends pencils for feedback before inking, so i assumed that means i'm supposed to say yay or nay on certain details, but overall i really liked what he showed me. The only part i wasn't thrilled with was the hip/leg area (i thought it looked manly) and asked if he could try to feminize a bit. Maybe making the mid section lines a bit curvier and such. He replied by citing some of the pictures I showed him and said it was based on those and said he "insisted" not to change this particular feature. That's when i opened this thread, but i did end up sending him a friendly message trying to explain a bit more as to why i thought it didn't look quite right.

In the end, he did make a minor adjustment, although i would've preferred it to be a bigger adjustment to the outer body lines from the bust to the lower leg area, but it did look slightly better. I didn't want to be picky or pushy because I wasn't sure if customers are supposed to be telling the artist to change something or not.

He showed me the inks he did a few minutes ago, and it does look a bit better. I still would've preferred a bigger adjustment, but it was slightly different. I don't think the change was overly noticeable without really examining it. Oh well, i do really like the drawing as a whole and will definitely show it off when it's all done.

I think, perhaps, some artists get an idea in their mind and they really want it to be the way they see it, regardless of what the customer says they want and then maybe it's hard as an artist to change something that you like. I dunno. I don't want to complain, and i don't want to be overly complacent either, since i AM paying money for it right.

[ashelton]

I'm not saying these are the only options, but I'd look at that in one of two ways:

1) Ignore what the artist said. In my experience, that kind of outright denial happens due to style. Either the artist simply can't see the difference or problem in order to fix it or they find their stylistic adaptation significantly visually more pleasing than the reality and balk at the aesthetic. Both are things that tend to change over time but won't help you now because the translation is that it's nearly impossible for the hand-brain connection to adapt to what you want from them. I'd lean this route if much of their current work has the same kind of figure.

2) Go with what the artist said and assume the problem is ego. The artist might've taken offense to the way you approached asking for changes - not saying you did it wrong, but artists are fickle and sensitive and depending on all kinds of things outside your control you might've struck a nerve at that point in time. Eg. maybe 30 minutes earlier someone said their women always looked like drag queens ;) Insult increases resistance to taking direction, obviously. Or, the artist is in that stage where They Know Anatomy Thank You Very Much and their "right" is more important than your "happy". As in everything else, people tend to know everything before they realize they don't. Happens to the best of us.

Either way, you're going to get what you're going to get, sad to say. I'd try to take it with a grain of salt and enjoy it for what it is - as you seem to be doing - and then just keep it in mind for the future. But, no, as an artist I don't think that the situation is one you should expect or accept as normal.

[justice41]

From my over 30 years of dealing with client issues once a client makes a change, that change becomes a focal pointe for them. What I tend to do is change the entire drawing to fix the change and to refocus the client to the overall drawing instead of whatever it was they were going to get a prickly burr up the rectum about. It's kinda like seeing a person wearing a rug. You can't stop looking at it.
Making changes also sometimes means changing the timeline. Artist thinks they are close to getting it done client wants small changes artist shluffs off artwork for a later day while doing something else.Client get's pissed 2 years later no artwork client still pissed artists rep dragged in the terlet.

[Doug]

One thing this artist is for sure is fast. He went from starting to inking and then on to starting colour all in one day. I was encouraging him to take his time because I'm in no rush and I'd rather him not feel any pressure and to focus on quality over speed but I think he just likes to get it done quickly.

I've learned a lot about this from all your info and advice, thanks everyone! I'm happy with the overall piece so far and I don't want to lose sight of that fact. He did make some small changes after I sent a second email. After he inked, it did look a bit better. I just wasn't sure how to take him "insisting" that it not be changed haha. I think, as you guys have said, that it comes down to his style and vision as an artist. He sees one thing, maybe I see another but in getting some advice here, i very gently urged for a small change at least and it was done (sort of haha).

In the end, I know it will be nice and now I know a bit more about how it works in general.

I don't want to give an artist a bad rep. That's not at all the point of my inquiry. I think I will put some time between this thread and showing it off ;) Just in case! He's a very nice guy and regardless of his reluctance in this one thing, has been very enjoyable to talk and work with!

Thanks y'all :)

[ashelton]

Nah, that's not rushing anything. The inking is the process that takes the least amount of time, by far. I'm super slow, but once I have the ideas roughed out it's not unheard of for me to complete a couple cards in one work day.

Anyway, I'd be skipping that suggestion too.. It's almost always better to keep going while you're feeling it and it's flowing. If you stop, you risk losing interest and it's hard to pick back up. It also risks inconsistency, as things like mood can affect your "brushstroke".

[Doug]

Obviously I'm not asking him to pace himself for the sake of pacing himself ;) I'd only want him to know that all I care about is quality over speed, so if he feels getting all that done in one day is working for him, then great! At least he's not speeding through it for MY sake. I do get what you mean by getting into a groove. I hope he's in a really good groove!! haha

Sort of an aside question... Are most of these artists self-taught types (natural talent alone) or do they have some kind of artistic education under their belt? I've been looking around locally for classes because i've always wanted to learn more but i haven't actively drawn for a long long time!

Cheers, thanks again for the advice !

[Doug]

Got a pic of the final piece and i do absolutely love it! Thanks for all the input y'all, i've got a much clearer idea of how things work and what to experiences to expect in future commissions. This artist might've been a bit stubborn to make the change i wanted, but in the end, i did sway him a bit, and i'm VERY happy with how it all turned out.

This was an 8x10 by the way, not a sketch card. I'll be showing it off and recommending the artist some time soon, because regardless of the tiny issue, he really is talented and created a stunning original for me that I can't wait to frame! =)

Thanks again y'all

[JRCrosby]

On any of my jobs (sketch cards, editorial illustration or design), I like to give the client several rounds of pencil sketches for their approval. I want to show how I envision their job as close as possible and get any changes out of the way in the early stages when they're relatively easy to make. Once I start inking and the final is in progress, changes are a different story!

[Poochums]

I have personally only provided the roughs beforehand on a few occasions. The commissioners never specify wanting roughs, so that's why I rarely do it. However, with a recent commission, I've been asked to show pencils beforehand and that's completely fine with me.

Like everyone else said, communication is key! I'm super easy to work with as long as we're open with each other.
The final product is usually always 1000 better than the sketches/inks, so maybe that's why I'm hesitant to show people beforehand, haha My sketches are so messy, they'd probably regret their decision!

But at the end, I always offer to redraw their piece if they don't like it. :D No big deal!