What made the card collecting "bubble" of the 90s finally burst?

[Raysfan16]

And to those who were collecting then, when could you tell that the end of an era was approaching? Was it the Strike? Or did people just lose interest?

[711 Cards]

The internet exposed over production.

[BigDan502]

The bubble slowly burst over time in my opinion.
Stadium Club and Ultra hit in 1991. Slowly everyone started coming out with more and more products.
In 1992 shaq was drafted to the Magic and kids really started taking an interest in collecting basketball cards.
As each company and sport expanded their lines it slowly diluted the market and turned off a lot of people.
Nothing really held value either.
In 1997 the first game used cards hit and the hobby slowly evolved to where it is now.
The late 90s were pretty huge because you could sell an 85 topps card for close to 2 beans at one point.
I just think some people were priced out of collecting.
Today, to collect at all, you need to be able to flip a little bit because the average consumer doesn't have the wallet to purchase products at the prices we pay.

[DSizzle31]

The internet exposed over production.

This.

Stuff that was rare in your area turned out to be not rare at all.

[37Jetson]

The Baseball Strike had an enormous impact on collector's, get rich investors and the card companies. The overproduction of the 1980's really became evident in the 1990's when the get rich investors walked away.

[Brewer Andy]

The internet exposed over production.

Yep this. Maybe 1% a combination of other factors but none more so

[Raysfan16]

I thought the internet became mainstream in ~1997 or so. I imagine it would've been way more difficult looking up a card online in 1992 before smartphones, wifi, etc.

[Gmrson]

Production far outweighed demand. Around 1987, a lot of people got into the hobby for the money/investment aspect and by 1992-93 they were seeing their cards being worth almost nothing. The new companies like Hoops and Pro Set flooded the market. I've heard stories of Pro Set running the presses 24 hours. People who weren't really into cards for a hobby dropped out.

I thought the internet became mainstream in ~1997 or so. I imagine it would've been way more difficult looking up a card online in 1992 before smartphones, wifi, etc.

I agree, it had burst well before the internet. Joining Ebay in 1998, I found I got really good prices for my oddball stuff that I still had. I even found a floundering card shop who was more than happy to sell his dead stock of Tiffany sets and Gallery of Champions set at a nicely discounted price. I think the start of the internet was good for selling, until more and more people got into it. IMO card buyers have increased, again, with people who rip and flip than collectors. The pattern before the burst is repeating, but the companies are using a much different approach.

[Jopeal]

The internet made 99% of cards easily accessible, which killed the value of everything except the rarest, most in-demand cards.

[Raysfan16]

The pattern before the burst is repeating, but the companies are using a much different approach.

That's partly why I was asking this question--with Super Jumbo boxes coming in this year's Draft, Panini, Leaf, and everybody hopping on the draft/prospecting train, it seems like we're reaching another trend of overproduction. That being said I was born in 1994 so I have no idea what it was like back then. Could you elaborate on the "much different approach"? All the new color cards and unlicensed draft garbage seems to be just as reckless as Donruss and Fleer back then.

[JeHHH]

Interesting thread, curious as well. I was born in 1993, and didn't start collecting until about the mid to late 2000s.

I think the internet has had a lot to do with it. And obviously overproduction in the late 80s to early 90s.

One contributing factor would be that topps and panini have been able to add a sense of scarcity that baseball cards once had by offering cards with very low print runs and numbering (superfractors).


Also on card autographs give collectors the idea that there is a finite amount, and that sports cards aren't just overproduced pieces of cardboard.

[JeHHH]

Companies found a way to make sports cards "rare" again while also maintaining appropriate production levels.

[hermanotarjeta]

people got sick of inserts and parallels.

yes, those same ones that are sort of valuable today since people are getting sick of jersey cards.

[patriots]

It was indeed the internet, more specifically eBay. It used to be that if you went to a card show and saw a Ken Griffey Insert that was #ed to 5000, you were going to pay good money for it because you wouldn't think you'd ever see one again. Now you get on eBay and you can find 20-30 of a card #ed to 100. There are advantages too, its not all bad. When I first got on eBay I was able to reach a larger base and quickly found out that Hideo Nomo had a much different market than what I struggled to find at the local card shows.

[corockies]

It was indeed the internet, more specifically eBay. It used to be that if you went to a card show and saw a Ken Griffey Insert that was #ed to 5000, you were going to pay good money for it because you wouldn't think you'd ever see one again. Now you get on eBay and you can find 20-30 of a card #ed to 100. There are advantages too, its not all bad. When I first got on eBay I was able to reach a larger base and quickly found out that Hideo Nomo had a much different market than what I struggled to find at the local card shows.

Good luck trying to purchase any low serial #ed Nomos from the late '90s. You can't find any of it, and when the rare copy does pop up it sells for insane amounts.

[MW Connection]

people got sick of inserts and parallels.

yes, those same ones that are sort of valuable today since people are getting sick of jersey cards.

pretty funny and definitely true. It seems 90's inserts have become hot again.

[callou2131]

I would say after 98. Remember in 97-98 Mcgwire, Bonds, Clemens, Ripken, Gwynn etc. were still very expensive cards for the time. As more and more people got on ebay after that and everyone got online it blew up. And I am talking raw as grading wasnt that important yet. 85 mcgwire was like $150-200, Bonds $100-$150, Ripken reg $60-80 etc. Now all can be had for the price of a modern pack.

[CharlieHustle]

All the answers listed here answer a different question. The internet absolutely did NOT cause the 90's bubble to burst. The 90's bubble was burst long before the internet, and ebay, came into great popularity. If anyone here remembers, 1995-1997 was freezing, ice cold in the collecting world. Shows died out, product was being released at an unmanageable pace and wax prices were through the roof (not in a good way). IMO, the bubble was burst when wax packs started to routinely cross the threshold of $5 a pack, timed perfectly with the baseball strike. It started with 1990 Leaf, then 1991 Stadium Club and 1991 OPC Premiere, then 1992 Ultra and 1992 Bowman, then Shaquille O'Neal came on to the scene and basketball products were $3-5 a pack for standard base cards. Everything started becoming more and more "premium", but the value wasn't being returned through the product (who remembers opening $60 boxes and the biggest "hit" being a $3 insert card). Then the real killers, 1993 SP and 1993 Finest. They created a temporary frenzy, but had a reverse effect in 1994 when everyone doubled down on the 1994 versions of the same sets and the baseball strike happened. The strike was like a door slamming shut on the collecting community. People just stopped buying cards cold.

Fast forward to 1998 and the homerun race between McGwire and Sosa. All of a sudden, old sealed product became popular again. The internet made cards more accessible and all of this gave way to the next "boom" in card collecting...graded cards.
So, IMO, you guys have it all wrong. The internet actually brought card collecting back, it didn't burst the bubble. The internet filled people's heads with dollar signs as they snatched up factory sets, massive surplus lots, and sealed product, looking for key superstar cards to send in for grading. Then in 2001, S/n rookies and autos really took off and became the new "must haves" for collectors, which kept things hot for a couple of years. The next cool down period was probably either 2002 or 2003 through 2006. In 2007, most collectors made their way back to collecting because of blaster boxes at Target/Walmart. So yes, it could be argued that the internet killed the card market in the early/mid 2000's, but as far as the 90's bubble goes, that was burst several years before people even had the internet in their homes.

[bowefan]

I think alot of was due to 2 factors, overproduction and ebay. It also seems everytime there was a new trend that hit the market, companies decided to flood the market with the trend.
Examples,
1. insert cards, it use be you get 1 insert or maybe 2 per box, then it became every 4 to 6 packs you would get an insert. I love the idea of pack odds of 1 out of 24 packs, 1 out of 48, 1 out of 72 , 1 out of 144 or 200 or something and 1 out of 700 and something. This kept the inserts rare to certain degree, but the card companies couldn't get the insert right. They made most inserts worthless.

2. Rookie cards. Back before 1989 there was rookies inserted a year or two after they were called up, a good thing. This way we could feel a rookie out and make a better estimate if we wanted to collect them. Also they usually only put in the top tier rookies making the card and the sets more expensive and sought after. From 89 or maybe 88 they put in prospects and alot of them. By around mid 90's they started inserting them 1 in every 6 packs or 4 packs then 2 packs then every packs. It flooded the market and made them worthless. There were exceptions, but for the most part they were not that expensive to have.

3.Jerysey cards. They used to inserted 1 out 10,000 packs or so, then 1 out 1,500 packs, then 1 out of 700+ packs, then 1 out 144 packs and so on and so on, till what it is today in certain products with 3 per box. Again, flooded the market. Now jersey cards are usually afterthoughts.

4. Numbered cards. Back in the day numbered cards were 1 in 2 cases hits or even a case hit depending on the product. I remember pulling a Terrell Davis legacy out of flair showcase in 98, it was numbered out of 100. I traded the card for 200 dollars and some Manning rcs. Now numbered cards are falling 2 to 6 times a box depending on the product. Again flooding the market and making the cards worthless, unless you get a great player and even then it is far less then it should be.

5. Autos. Again great idea made bad by the companies. Who wants to pull bench players and 27 year old rookies or prospects. Also is it really rare anymore to pull these cards. No. Yes it is nice to pull 3 autos out of Bowman jumbo, but back in the day it was special, you knew you hit something rare, something that most people wouldn't have, making the card more valuable. Even if it was a second tier guy.

The blame isn't all on the companies, I blame social media too. People going to the companies websites, blogs, twitter and facebook complaining they need more content, aka more bang for the buck, but in reality collectors complaints that were heard and complied too drove the market down. Now were there inserting massive amounts of color refractors to sets making refractors worth less. Were does it stop.. It stops when the companies go under or they get a clue and stop flooding the market. This last part will never happen.

[EJohnson]

All the answers listed here answer a different question. The internet absolutely did NOT cause the 90's bubble to burst. The 90's bubble was burst long before the internet, and ebay, came into great popularity. If anyone here remembers, 1995-1997 was freezing, ice cold in the collecting world. Shows died out, product was being released at an unmanageable pace and wax prices were through the roof (not in a good way). IMO, the bubble was burst when wax packs started to routinely cross the threshold of $5 a pack, timed perfectly with the baseball strike. It started with 1990 Leaf, then 1991 Stadium Club and 1991 OPC Premiere, then 1992 Ultra and 1992 Bowman, then Shaquille O'Neal came on to the scene and basketball products were $3-5 a pack for standard base cards. Everything started becoming more and more "premium", but the value wasn't being returned through the product (who remembers opening $60 boxes and the biggest "hit" being a $3 insert card). Then the real killers, 1993 SP and 1993 Finest. They created a temporary frenzy, but had a reverse effect in 1994 when everyone doubled down on the 1994 versions of the same sets and the baseball strike happened. The strike was like a door slamming shut on the collecting community. People just stopped buying cards cold.

Fast forward to 1998 and the homerun race between McGwire and Sosa. All of a sudden, old sealed product became popular again. The internet made cards more accessible and all of this gave way to the next "boom" in card collecting...graded cards.
So, IMO, you guys have it all wrong. The internet actually brought card collecting back, it didn't burst the bubble. The internet filled people's heads with dollar signs as they snatched up factory sets, massive surplus lots, and sealed product, looking for key superstar cards to send in for grading. Then in 2001, S/n rookies and autos really took off and became the new "must haves" for collectors, which kept things hot for a couple of years. The next cool down period was probably either 2002 or 2003 through 2006. In 2007, most collectors made their way back to collecting because of blaster boxes at Target/Walmart. So yes, it could be argued that the internet killed the card market in the early/mid 2000's, but as far as the 90's bubble goes, that was burst several years before people even had the internet in their homes.

This guy right here gets it.

[Prospect Rush]

All the answers listed here answer a different question. The internet absolutely did NOT cause the 90's bubble to burst. The 90's bubble was burst long before the internet, and ebay, came into great popularity. If anyone here remembers, 1995-1997 was freezing, ice cold in the collecting world. Shows died out, product was being released at an unmanageable pace and wax prices were through the roof (not in a good way). IMO, the bubble was burst when wax packs started to routinely cross the threshold of $5 a pack, timed perfectly with the baseball strike. It started with 1990 Leaf, then 1991 Stadium Club and 1991 OPC Premiere, then 1992 Ultra and 1992 Bowman, then Shaquille O'Neal came on to the scene and basketball products were $3-5 a pack for standard base cards. Everything started becoming more and more "premium", but the value wasn't being returned through the product (who remembers opening $60 boxes and the biggest "hit" being a $3 insert card). Then the real killers, 1993 SP and 1993 Finest. They created a temporary frenzy, but had a reverse effect in 1994 when everyone doubled down on the 1994 versions of the same sets and the baseball strike happened. The strike was like a door slamming shut on the collecting community. People just stopped buying cards cold.

Fast forward to 1998 and the homerun race between McGwire and Sosa. All of a sudden, old sealed product became popular again. The internet made cards more accessible and all of this gave way to the next "boom" in card collecting...graded cards.
So, IMO, you guys have it all wrong. The internet actually brought card collecting back, it didn't burst the bubble. The internet filled people's heads with dollar signs as they snatched up factory sets, massive surplus lots, and sealed product, looking for key superstar cards to send in for grading. Then in 2001, S/n rookies and autos really took off and became the new "must haves" for collectors, which kept things hot for a couple of years. The next cool down period was probably either 2002 or 2003 through 2006. In 2007, most collectors made their way back to collecting because of blaster boxes at Target/Walmart. So yes, it could be argued that the internet killed the card market in the early/mid 2000's, but as far as the 90's bubble goes, that was burst several years before people even had the internet in their homes.

Correct, bubble burst long before internet.

[shrevecity]

Yeah the bubble burst before the internet became mainstream. The internet did expose the fact that many rare items were not rare, but that happened in all collectible areas not just sportscards. The card bubble had already burst.

[smalltown]

it seems like we're reaching another trend of overproduction. That being said I was born in 1994 so I have no idea what it was like back then.

The prospecting of bowman reminds me a lot of what happened back in the day. I remember people hoarding Griffey rookies Frank Thomas rookies and others. I remember a guy who had 50+ of the Mcguire USA rookie - binder pages full. "It's going to be worth a bazillion(paraphrasing) dollars when he gets into the hall" he used to say. That was the first moment i realized the over production. I see the same thing now with the bowman sets.

[711 Cards]

The prospecting of bowman reminds me a lot of what happened back in the day. I remember people hoarding Griffey rookies Frank Thomas rookies and others. I remember a guy who had 50+ of the Mcguire USA rookie - binder pages full. "It's going to be worth a bazillion(paraphrasing) dollars when he gets into the hall" he used to say. That was the first moment i realized the over production. I see the same thing now with the bowman sets.

Except now we know the print run of every card.

[mainerunr]

eBay definitely was not the cause however, I do believe the internet contributed. Usenet newsgroups certainly existed in the early 90's and there were several regarding collecting cards. I think that was the beginning of exposing the sheer numbers of cards available.

[smalltown]

Except now we know the print run of every card.

Fair enough. I don't know off hand the number of base there are of each player but:

Prospect set

Base + 1,595 parallels. For ever player.

But wait i for got Chrome

Base + 1,080 parallels. For ever player. Oh plus un numbered Black Wave, Blue Wave, Orange Wave.

So yes we may know the print run. But knowing the print run doesn't mean something isn't being over produced.

[rcmb3220]

All the answers listed here answer a different question. The internet absolutely did NOT cause the 90's bubble to burst. The 90's bubble was burst long before the internet, and ebay, came into great popularity. If anyone here remembers, 1995-1997 was freezing, ice cold in the collecting world. Shows died out, product was being released at an unmanageable pace and wax prices were through the roof (not in a good way). IMO, the bubble was burst when wax packs started to routinely cross the threshold of $5 a pack, timed perfectly with the baseball strike. It started with 1990 Leaf, then 1991 Stadium Club and 1991 OPC Premiere, then 1992 Ultra and 1992 Bowman, then Shaquille O'Neal came on to the scene and basketball products were $3-5 a pack for standard base cards. Everything started becoming more and more "premium", but the value wasn't being returned through the product (who remembers opening $60 boxes and the biggest "hit" being a $3 insert card). Then the real killers, 1993 SP and 1993 Finest. They created a temporary frenzy, but had a reverse effect in 1994 when everyone doubled down on the 1994 versions of the same sets and the baseball strike happened. The strike was like a door slamming shut on the collecting community. People just stopped buying cards cold.

Fast forward to 1998 and the homerun race between McGwire and Sosa. All of a sudden, old sealed product became popular again. The internet made cards more accessible and all of this gave way to the next "boom" in card collecting...graded cards.
So, IMO, you guys have it all wrong. The internet actually brought card collecting back, it didn't burst the bubble. The internet filled people's heads with dollar signs as they snatched up factory sets, massive surplus lots, and sealed product, looking for key superstar cards to send in for grading. Then in 2001, S/n rookies and autos really took off and became the new "must haves" for collectors, which kept things hot for a couple of years. The next cool down period was probably either 2002 or 2003 through 2006. In 2007, most collectors made their way back to collecting because of blaster boxes at Target/Walmart. So yes, it could be argued that the internet killed the card market in the early/mid 2000's, but as far as the 90's bubble goes, that was burst several years before people even had the internet in their homes.

This is exactly how I remember it. I collected mainly from 86-92 but followed the hobby until 95 and picked it back up a few months ago. 89-91 was the absolute peak from my standpoint. My town of 40,000 went from 1 to 3 card shops and every single weekend there was a card show at a mall or hotel within a 30 minute drive. Things started to slow down in 93 and after the baseball strike is when shows started to be rare and all the shops closed up.

No internet involved.

I've been very surprised to see how the hobby has evolved in the 19 years since I've left. I'm glad it exists in some form and that there is a passionate audience but I see variations of the same themes from the 80s/90s bubble playing out now.

[Joe]

Early 90s, right around 1993 The internet didn't become mainstream until later in the 90's. In the early 90's there were card shops everywhere! Within a 15 minute drive of where I lived (about 30 minutes north of Cincinnati) my family had a card shop, there was a shop a BLOCK down the street from us as well. Then you had Mavericks, a shop in one of the malls, Bleachers, another shop off of Tylersville and a shop in Landen square and Fun time sports cards (which we actually sold all of our stuff to when we closed up, so they came right after us). My family didn't even close because of poor business, we just never saw each other because someone was always running the shop (I was around 12 at the time). So I can count 7 shops within a 15 minute drive... A year or so later there were 3 and one of those owners won the lottery before opening the shop and never even kept it open. The strike helped put a nail in the coffin for most that were still hanging on by a thread. The internet did not burst the bubble.

Crazy amounts of cards being produced along with the fact that everywhere you looked you had a card shop helped burst the bubble... When you have something on every street corner, it gets old after a while and you move on to something else. The inserts had something to do with that, there were only a 1 or so a box at the time and people stopped caring about base but when you only got 1 insert per box, they stopped spending their money.

[Joe]

Wild Card going down was an eye opener for a lot of collectors to. I remember that leaving a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths, that seemed to really make people aware of just how bad it was.

[Ksmithwick]

All the answers listed here answer a different question. The internet absolutely did NOT cause the 90's bubble to burst. The 90's bubble was burst long before the internet, and ebay, came into great popularity. If anyone here remembers, 1995-1997 was freezing, ice cold in the collecting world. Shows died out, product was being released at an unmanageable pace and wax prices were through the roof (not in a good way). IMO, the bubble was burst when wax packs started to routinely cross the threshold of $5 a pack, timed perfectly with the baseball strike. It started with 1990 Leaf, then 1991 Stadium Club and 1991 OPC Premiere, then 1992 Ultra and 1992 Bowman, then Shaquille O'Neal came on to the scene and basketball products were $3-5 a pack for standard base cards. Everything started becoming more and more "premium", but the value wasn't being returned through the product (who remembers opening $60 boxes and the biggest "hit" being a $3 insert card). Then the real killers, 1993 SP and 1993 Finest. They created a temporary frenzy, but had a reverse effect in 1994 when everyone doubled down on the 1994 versions of the same sets and the baseball strike happened. The strike was like a door slamming shut on the collecting community. People just stopped buying cards cold.

Fast forward to 1998 and the homerun race between McGwire and Sosa. All of a sudden, old sealed product became popular again. The internet made cards more accessible and all of this gave way to the next "boom" in card collecting...graded cards.
So, IMO, you guys have it all wrong. The internet actually brought card collecting back, it didn't burst the bubble. The internet filled people's heads with dollar signs as they snatched up factory sets, massive surplus lots, and sealed product, looking for key superstar cards to send in for grading. Then in 2001, S/n rookies and autos really took off and became the new "must haves" for collectors, which kept things hot for a couple of years. The next cool down period was probably either 2002 or 2003 through 2006. In 2007, most collectors made their way back to collecting because of blaster boxes at Target/Walmart. So yes, it could be argued that the internet killed the card market in the early/mid 2000's, but as far as the 90's bubble goes, that was burst several years before people even had the internet in their homes.

Very well said

[enyouartist]

IMO, the bubble began when the first GU jersey cards came out. Opening packs became "hit driven", where as it was "player driven" before. Base cards and "rookie cards" soon became irrelevant, and since the 80s/90s were mostly base and "hitless", nobody cared anymore about stuff from that era.

[aaron41984]

WTF are you people talking about? I've seen like one coherent statement in this mess. You all need to chill the hell out. The manufacturers are going to drag whatever they can out of consumers. As long as buyers stay within their budgets and experienced collectors buy wisely, everything will be fine. The fly-by-night investors will come and go as individuals but they'll always be there collectively.

[aaron41984]

Charlie Hustle got it mostly right but personally, I did fine during the baseball strike. I was young but shows never really slowed down in my area and it just went ballistic in '98

[shrevecity]

This is exactly how I remember it. I collected mainly from 86-92 but followed the hobby until 95 and picked it back up a few months ago. 89-91 was the absolute peak from my standpoint. My town of 40,000 went from 1 to 3 card shops and every single weekend there was a card show at a mall or hotel within a 30 minute drive. Things started to slow down in 93 and after the baseball strike is when shows started to be rare and all the shops closed up.

No internet involved.

I've been very surprised to see how the hobby has evolved in the 19 years since I've left. I'm glad it exists in some form and that there is a passionate audience but I see variations of the same themes from the 80s/90s bubble playing out now.

Same here in 1988 our town of 50K had 1 card shop and it was not a full card shop. By 1991 there were 6 shops and a show almost every weekend. By 1995 there were 3 shops left and rarely a show. Today the only shop left is the one that was there in 1988 and there has not been a show within 100 miles in nearly 15 years.

[Joe]

I don't really see the need for shows anymore. I've been to two in the past 10 years and was disappointed by both. I just took my nephews to let them have the experience. Too many old guys trying to screw over a 10 year old for me... Half of the guys are ok but the other half are trying to push a card for 10 bucks thats only worth 5 to a kid. Reminded me of that bad side of the business.

[Joe]

WTF are you people talking about? I've seen like one coherent statement in this mess. You all need to chill the hell out. The manufacturers are going to drag whatever they can out of consumers. As long as buyers stay within their budgets and experienced collectors buy wisely, everything will be fine. The fly-by-night investors will come and go as individuals but they'll always be there collectively.

I find it funny that the least coherent comment is yours. I think you missed the point of the entire thread. The bubble did burst on the card business at one point, the OP was asking what triggered it. If anyone needs to chill out it is you.

[ernieren]

I think all card years in the 87 -93 they just put out tons. You also had off the wall companies join in . Then a few new companies each year in the 90's like Action packed, Edge, the Minor lg sets , classic signature rookies etc. But we as collectors at the time wanted more and more. When 92-93 Classic 4 sport came out it was huge SHaq, Bledsoe, Mire, Hearst , Morning , and a handful of others . That years stuff was crazy good for sales and collectors loved it. But Classic over did it with to much product . I still love that stuff but everything from then they made millions of cases . tons of auto's even as high numbered you didn't get an auto every box. Donruss Killed the 90's and fleer did .

88- 93 Donruss, Fleer, Topps 89 -95 UD they made so much you can't give away . They kept the printers on for a month straight if not longer.

Now 91 STC i loved it they made tons as well but just the quality of those sets were amazing.

92 Bowman a new start for Topps that did well until 95 Chrome .

I can tell you i tossed 10 or more monster boxes of 90's crap Yet i still have another 10 or more boxes of crap from those years. At some point with people tossing these cards . I think the values will turn around. Plus all the inserts and auto's that got damaged or tossed over the years.

[Raysfan16]

The prospecting of bowman reminds me a lot of what happened back in the day. I remember people hoarding Griffey rookies Frank Thomas rookies and others. I remember a guy who had 50+ of the Mcguire USA rookie - binder pages full. "It's going to be worth a bazillion(paraphrasing) dollars when he gets into the hall" he used to say. That was the first moment i realized the over production. I see the same thing now with the bowman sets.

Except now it's just "it's gonna be worth a bazillion dollars two weeks after his callup". Seems like there's fewer BUYERS after the callup, yet more and more SELLERS who busted cases of draft and built stashes of their players.

[HTownFan]

The bubble burst for me in 2000. One, because I was starting college & two, because the number of sets that were being released each year became overwhelming. I couldn't keep up.

HTownFan

[wickedliquids]

The bubble slowly burst over time in my opinion.
Stadium Club and Ultra hit in 1991. Slowly everyone started coming out with more and more products.
In 1992 shaq was drafted to the Magic and kids really started taking an interest in collecting basketball cards.
As each company and sport expanded their lines it slowly diluted the market and turned off a lot of people.
Nothing really held value either.
In 1997 the first game used cards hit and the hobby slowly evolved to where it is now.
The late 90s were pretty huge because you could sell an 85 topps card for close to 2 beans at one point.
I just think some people were priced out of collecting.
Today, to collect at all, you need to be able to flip a little bit because the average consumer doesn't have the wallet to purchase products at the prices we pay.

good timeline and I agree.

One thing to add, was the people trying to GET OUT of the hobby - that just diluted the market even more. By 1994, cards would sit on shelves and just not move.

I ironically stepped away when I could no longer keep up with the various lines produced to drum up more business by the card companies. It didn't have the same feel when i was younger, so I stopped.

[BostonNut]

Sorry to go off track but it blows my mind that the internet is older than some of you...

Damn I'm old...:(

[duwal]

The internet exposed over production.



If anything I think the internet helped greatly increase interest in card collecting. I can tell you back before I joined up and started selling on Ebay in 1998 myself and everyone had no choice but to sell or trade locally with other at card shows, hobby stores, other venues and a lot of the times a nice valuable card would remain unwanted because no one in that area collected or had interest in obtaining and holding onto the card. Then comes the internet and Ebay and sports sites like these and a whole new world opened up where you could send cards to Pittsburgh or Atlanta or Canada or even overseas and get close to the maximum amount of funds you could sell your card for as well as trade with someone across the country and have the deal documented online. I think when the internet started up as far as card collecting a lot of people greatly improved their personal collection

[duwal]

Sorry to go off track but it blows my mind that the internet is older than some of you...

Damn I'm old...:(


I still consider myself young except for examples like hearing a member was born in 1993 and that was just a few years before I joined Ebay :cool:

[bobthewondercat]

The overproduction of products didn't cause the bubble to burst. Those peak years of the hobby were during mass overproduction.

It was a severe reduction in the amount of collectors / speculators / purchasers. Hard to say exactly what caused this but baseball cards just became very old-fashioned seeming, very quickly. The fad among kids / teens just ended and they moved on.

The "resurgence" in the card market is 90% those same kids and teens that collected in the boom years now having disposable income as 30-somethings. Obviously this, too, has an expiration date on it.

[HTownFan]

Some articles about the "bubble":

Frank Thomas, the first baseball-card-bubble Hall of Famer - SBNation.com (http://www.sbnation.com/2014/1/10/5294334/frank-thomas-ken-griffey-jr-baseball-cards-hall-of-fame)

Pop goes the baseball-card bubble - SFGate (http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Pop-goes-the-baseball-card-bubble-2529514.php)

Collectors lament baseball's House of Cards - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/collectors-lament-baseballs-house-of-cards/)

Surviving the Great Baseball Card Bubble ? My Money Blog (http://www.mymoneyblog.com/surviving-the-great-baseball-card-bubble.html)

Lessons from the Junk Wax Era Sports Card Investment Bubble & Crash (http://20somethingfinance.com/the-junk-wax-era-sports-card-investment-bubble-and-crash/)

The Decline of the Baseball Card Industry | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/132275-the-baseball-card-industry)

HTownFan

[YouTheManNick]

I grew during the late 80's and 90's boom and my pops let me have my fun for a few years, then one day he said

"you're not allowed to buy cards anymore"

"Why?"

"They're worthless"

(Busting out the Beckett)

"No they're not"

"Who are you going to sell them to?"

(Stumped)

"I bet you all your friends have the exact same cards. Something's only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it."


The old man saved me a ton of money... although I think the fact that I didn't leave the hobby of my own will as a kid is what drew me back as an adult. Hmm.

[death2redemptions]

The internet came around and exposed the over production

[babybull]

I don't really see the need for shows anymore. I've been to two in the past 10 years and was disappointed by both. I just took my nephews to let them have the experience. Too many old guys trying to screw over a 10 year old for me... Half of the guys are ok but the other half are trying to push a card for 10 bucks thats only worth 5 to a kid. Reminded me of that bad side of the business.

Aren't shows really about signings now. Why go to a show when you can have virtually any card of the internet in 3-4 days?

[sideout1212]

Could you guys elaborate on Stadium Club being part of the problem? I only started collecting in 1990 so right in the peak of over production. Stadium Club was the first premium cards I had, in fact I think I have some unopened packs, and they looked great with pictures to the edge and Fleer Ultra was ok IMO. I only collected about 3 years and what got me back into it about 3 years ago were the Million Card and Diamond Giveaways. Cool, cheap way to trade cards and get some nice vintage.

10 years from now someone will ask, what caused the auto bubble I bet. The answer will be 30 premium products that are all numbered autos. 100 variations of /99 autos is still 9,900 autos per year. Dynasty this year, some new one next year...

[sideout1212]

I grew during the late 80's and 90's boom and my pops let me have my fun for a few years, then one day he said

"you're not allowed to buy cards anymore"

"Why?"

"They're worthless"

(Busting out the Beckett)

"No they're not"

"Who are you going to sell them to?"

(Stumped)

"I bet you all your friends have the exact same cards. Something's only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it."


The old man saved me a ton of money... although I think the fact that I didn't leave the hobby of my own will as a kid is what drew me back as an adult. Hmm.

That's a good point. Beckett's bullcrap pricing is partly culpable. Wouldn't have been as much demand to cause a bubble if we all knew that $5 card was really worth a quarter. The fact that cards sell at 1/10 BV just shows it is complete BS.

[Raysfan16]

I grew during the late 80's and 90's boom and my pops let me have my fun for a few years, then one day he said

"you're not allowed to buy cards anymore"

"Why?"

"They're worthless"

(Busting out the Beckett)

"No they're not"

"Who are you going to sell them to?"

(Stumped)

"I bet you all your friends have the exact same cards. Something's only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it."


The old man saved me a ton of money... although I think the fact that I didn't leave the hobby of my own will as a kid is what drew me back as an adult. Hmm.

Fell for the same thing....I picked out cards out of the quarter box that booked for $5--maybe a non numbered color ref of some scrub. I'm getting such a great deeeeeeal!!!...not really, now there's a ton of junk sitting in my boxes.

Card collecting, for all its faults, gives a VERY GOOD introductory course in practical Economics. Supply and demand, haggling, the irrationality of everyone including me, etc.

[HTownFan]

I grew during the late 80's and 90's boom and my pops let me have my fun for a few years, then one day he said

"you're not allowed to buy cards anymore"

"Why?"

"They're worthless"

(Busting out the Beckett)

"No they're not"

"Who are you going to sell them to?"

(Stumped)

"I bet you all your friends have the exact same cards. Something's only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it."


The old man saved me a ton of money... although I think the fact that I didn't leave the hobby of my own will as a kid is what drew me back as an adult. Hmm.

I've often wondered how Beckett got its pricing information. Also, what made it believe it was the most reliable price guide in the hobby? I wonder if Beckett (& maybe other price guides) helped the bubble burst. I remember reading an article on another site about how dealers would always stick to the values seen in Beckett. They wouldn't budge on the price. If Beckett said a card is worth $5, then that is what the dealer would charge. You couldn't get the dealer to change his mind. I think there were (& still are) a lot of people who disagree with Beckett's pricing. Perhaps Beckett's over pricing of cards drove some people away.

HTownFan

[rats60]

All the answers listed here answer a different question. The internet absolutely did NOT cause the 90's bubble to burst. The 90's bubble was burst long before the internet, and ebay, came into great popularity. If anyone here remembers, 1995-1997 was freezing, ice cold in the collecting world. Shows died out, product was being released at an unmanageable pace and wax prices were through the roof (not in a good way). IMO, the bubble was burst when wax packs started to routinely cross the threshold of $5 a pack, timed perfectly with the baseball strike. It started with 1990 Leaf, then 1991 Stadium Club and 1991 OPC Premiere, then 1992 Ultra and 1992 Bowman, then Shaquille O'Neal came on to the scene and basketball products were $3-5 a pack for standard base cards. Everything started becoming more and more "premium", but the value wasn't being returned through the product (who remembers opening $60 boxes and the biggest "hit" being a $3 insert card). Then the real killers, 1993 SP and 1993 Finest. They created a temporary frenzy, but had a reverse effect in 1994 when everyone doubled down on the 1994 versions of the same sets and the baseball strike happened. The strike was like a door slamming shut on the collecting community. People just stopped buying cards cold.

Fast forward to 1998 and the homerun race between McGwire and Sosa. All of a sudden, old sealed product became popular again. The internet made cards more accessible and all of this gave way to the next "boom" in card collecting...graded cards.
So, IMO, you guys have it all wrong. The internet actually brought card collecting back, it didn't burst the bubble. The internet filled people's heads with dollar signs as they snatched up factory sets, massive surplus lots, and sealed product, looking for key superstar cards to send in for grading. Then in 2001, S/n rookies and autos really took off and became the new "must haves" for collectors, which kept things hot for a couple of years. The next cool down period was probably either 2002 or 2003 through 2006. In 2007, most collectors made their way back to collecting because of blaster boxes at Target/Walmart. So yes, it could be argued that the internet killed the card market in the early/mid 2000's, but as far as the 90's bubble goes, that was burst several years before people even had the internet in their homes.

The bubble burst for baseball cards in 1994 with the strike. However, people were already migrating to basketball in 1993 with Shaq RCs and Jordan inserts. While baseball went ice cold in the summer of 94 and thru 95, the basketball market was red hot. Baseball started rebounding with 96 Topps 1 and 97 Bowman Chrome and took off again in 98 with the HR race.

The final straw was the 98/99 basketball strike and Jordan's 2nd retirement. Companies kept making more and more sets and there was no demand for most of them across all sports. The internet killed the small shows and shops, forcing collectors to quit or go online. By 2001, the market was pretty much done. Bonds breaking McGwire's HR record saw his cards peek at 40.00, where McGwire's were 200.00+ when he broke Maris' record 3 years before.

[jmyzell29]

I think you also have to take into account the casual collector back then. People who never thought of collecting baseball cards did so because it was becoming popular. When interest from the hardcore collectors and buyers died so did the casual. People felt deceived by card companies which turned it off to everyone except the biggest fans.

I can see the pattern happening again with all the new sets and series coming out. Dynasty, Stadium Club (again), Inception, 5 Star, etc. They are making it difficult for people with limited funds to buy products. Which keeps the bubble from bursting again in my opinion.

[benshobbies]

Talk about what brought a number of People back to the hobby....

Stephen Strasburg back to back with Bryce Harper in 2009 & 2010.

Tanaka has pretty much healed the Yankee fan base that was disgusted with Alex Rodriguez.

I see a lot of good going on in the hobby right now.

[HTownFan]

I got back into the hobby in mid 2012. I had first collected sports cards from 1990 to 2000. From about 2005 until 2011 I collected non-sports cards. I lost interest in that & decided to pick sports back up.

HTownFan

[k13]

I stopped collecting in 93-94 as so all did my friends.
Too many sets, too many inserts, packs got too expansive. Started HS. Yada. Yada. Yada.

Bubble burst before internet/ebay.
Demand died down and everyone wanted to sell their cards now and obviously no one was buying. Ebay was just the final slap in the face to collecters who saw their prized rookies sell in lots of 100's for a few bucks.
Way more sellers than buyers.

Not much has changed. Still way more sellers than buyers just the demand is so much smaller and production is smaller at least in perception.

The future does not look bright

[dlouisb1313]

All the answers listed here answer a different question. The internet absolutely did NOT cause the 90's bubble to burst. The 90's bubble was burst long before the internet, and ebay, came into great popularity. If anyone here remembers, 1995-1997 was freezing, ice cold in the collecting world. Shows died out, product was being released at an unmanageable pace and wax prices were through the roof (not in a good way). IMO, the bubble was burst when wax packs started to routinely cross the threshold of $5 a pack, timed perfectly with the baseball strike. It started with 1990 Leaf, then 1991 Stadium Club and 1991 OPC Premiere, then 1992 Ultra and 1992 Bowman, then Shaquille O'Neal came on to the scene and basketball products were $3-5 a pack for standard base cards. Everything started becoming more and more "premium", but the value wasn't being returned through the product (who remembers opening $60 boxes and the biggest "hit" being a $3 insert card). Then the real killers, 1993 SP and 1993 Finest. They created a temporary frenzy, but had a reverse effect in 1994 when everyone doubled down on the 1994 versions of the same sets and the baseball strike happened. The strike was like a door slamming shut on the collecting community. People just stopped buying cards cold.

Fast forward to 1998 and the homerun race between McGwire and Sosa. All of a sudden, old sealed product became popular again. The internet made cards more accessible and all of this gave way to the next "boom" in card collecting...graded cards.
So, IMO, you guys have it all wrong. The internet actually brought card collecting back, it didn't burst the bubble. The internet filled people's heads with dollar signs as they snatched up factory sets, massive surplus lots, and sealed product, looking for key superstar cards to send in for grading. Then in 2001, S/n rookies and autos really took off and became the new "must haves" for collectors, which kept things hot for a couple of years. The next cool down period was probably either 2002 or 2003 through 2006. In 2007, most collectors made their way back to collecting because of blaster boxes at Target/Walmart. So yes, it could be argued that the internet killed the card market in the early/mid 2000's, but as far as the 90's bubble goes, that was burst several years before people even had the internet in their homes.



I remember paying less than $60 for a lot of stuff I collected back then and had a hell of a lot better return.Almost every time I would walk into any card shop and get the dealer to buy something or at least have trade bait.Now you can pay your $80+ for almost every box there is and see if a good % of the time he'll buy even one card out of that box.Maybe I just had a good run of luck back then.But I would long for the days I could pay $30-60 a box and get at least any return than paying $100+ and be like wow what just happened here.I know people say it's like playing the lottery.Most likely you're not going to get rich,but buying a $1 scratch ticket and winning your $1 back has a better return than any product out today.

[natbornkiller]

The fall of score, donruss and pinnacle

AND THE 5,643 DIFFERENT PRODUCTS A YEAR

[bbcardsrgreat]

Ok there was definitely a bubble burst on the whole hobby. Mainly since 1988-1992 I'm sure are still being printed today. Now I've been doing shows since 1986 I can remember when people actually put sets together or buying a box of cards at the candy wholesaler ripping it and selling the singles for more then the box price. The internet is not a hindrance to the hobby but a tool for dealers and collectors around the world yes it shows that there are a ton of cards out there but the super rare ones or the really nice old ones are there, one of the posters stated they are one worth what someone will pay. I feel the overall economy has hurt the hobby the most. As a dealer of cards I rip nothing but I'm not a flipper either. I do prospect stuff but mostly base chromes and base autos I find it easier to sell 20-50 dollar cards and trade the really high dollar stuff for multiples of easier sellable cards.

Now back to my original point, diversity in the card market has spread the money out when baseball went on strike in 1994 it was the 100th anniversary for baseball and the strike just had people buying football instead or another sport even nascar had an upswing in 1994. Inserts are not a real reason
either people collect players or a certain team even now with all the different inserts that are available with different parallels. Kids are not in the hobby as they once were they just can't afford it, even though there are exceptions to the rule most times if a kid collects their dad does also.

I feel that the real bubble was the fact that they just printed a ton of crap in 1988-1993 now with that said I still buy as many 199o leaf, 1992 bowman 1993 finest and 1993 sp lots that I can pick up reasonable. I also buy up those tougher inserts from the 90's no matter what they are numbered to this hobby goes in waves I remember buying really nice 70's because I could not afford 50's and 60's and 1981 donruss and fleer boxes could be had for under 20 now they are not 100's but are like 3x that now those 80's early 90's crap will be asked for again but just much later heck I just bought 3 1989 bowman rack cases to put away didn't pay much and its going to be good some day

[katho54]

I thought the internet became mainstream in ~1997 or so. I imagine it would've been way more difficult looking up a card online in 1992 before smartphones, wifi, etc.

I was selling cards on Usenet back in 1995...Used to make pretty good money and was never stiffed on payments

[clipperboy24]

Fell for the same thing....I picked out cards out of the quarter box that booked for $5--maybe a non numbered color ref of some scrub. I'm getting such a great deeeeeeal!!!...not really, now there's a ton of junk sitting in my boxes.

Card collecting, for all its faults, gives a VERY GOOD introductory course in practical Economics. Supply and demand, haggling, the irrationality of everyone including me, etc.

Amen to that! I am in finance and card collecting taught me more about business than any other class I took. People laugh when I say it but card collecting helped me understand investing, the stock market, negotiating identifying value etc. I want to see more kids involved even if just to educate them.

[Halbert]

Surprising the years people mention where the hobby was getting stronger because of guys like Strasburg and Harper, still surprises me though because the economy was pretty bad in those years.... surprised those are the years you guys mention as the hobby getting steam again . Just surprising with how the economy was during those years

[HTownFan]

Ok there was definitely a bubble burst on the whole hobby. Mainly since 1988-1992 I'm sure are still being printed today. Now I've been doing shows since 1986 I can remember when people actually put sets together or buying a box of cards at the candy wholesaler ripping it and selling the singles for more then the box price. The internet is not a hindrance to the hobby but a tool for dealers and collectors around the world yes it shows that there are a ton of cards out there but the super rare ones or the really nice old ones are there, one of the posters stated they are one worth what someone will pay. I feel the overall economy has hurt the hobby the most. As a dealer of cards I rip nothing but I'm not a flipper either. I do prospect stuff but mostly base chromes and base autos I find it easier to sell 20-50 dollar cards and trade the really high dollar stuff for multiples of easier sellable cards.

Now back to my original point, diversity in the card market has spread the money out when baseball went on strike in 1994 it was the 100th anniversary for baseball and the strike just had people buying football instead or another sport even nascar had an upswing in 1994. Inserts are not a real reason
either people collect players or a certain team even now with all the different inserts that are available with different parallels. Kids are not in the hobby as they once were they just can't afford it, even though there are exceptions to the rule most times if a kid collects their dad does also.

I feel that the real bubble was the fact that they just printed a ton of crap in 1988-1993 now with that said I still buy as many 199o leaf, 1992 bowman 1993 finest and 1993 sp lots that I can pick up reasonable. I also buy up those tougher inserts from the 90's no matter what they are numbered to this hobby goes in waves I remember buying really nice 70's because I could not afford 50's and 60's and 1981 donruss and fleer boxes could be had for under 20 now they are not 100's but are like 3x that now those 80's early 90's crap will be asked for again but just much later heck I just bought 3 1989 bowman rack cases to put away didn't pay much and its going to be good some day

I suppose I'm a reason why it's easier to sell cards for $20-$50 over higher $$ cards. I have a rule about not spending more than $100 for any single card.

HTownFan

[Lionsman81]

Supply and Demand,
The companies got greedy plain and simple. The funny thing is base cards used to drive the market but now people realize a star player (example Albert Pujols) will have at least a couple hundred sets his cards are featured in plus there are 10,000+ copies of this card in existence. Rookies cards are barely worth a couple bucks heck I could pick up a nice Jeter or Cabrera RC for $2-$3 because they made so many sets featuring Cabrera and Jeter RCs and the supply of cards far exceeds the demand.

"Investors" hurt the market as much as the help it, while they drive the price of singles up it ruined the fun for a lot of people when it comes to collecting, it's all about when can I cash out when can I make the most money hell, you'll see 10+ threads a week about whether to buy sell or hold a prospects card. When's the last time you saw somebody super excited to pull an average card just an ok $5-$10 auto or a cheap relic card? The excitement is gone, it's all a game now and not really a hobby. People have started to see cards as an investment rather then a hobby how often do you see somebody whine about not getting a good enough box and not getting there super duper 1/1 Aberu Superfractor? All the time.

Bringing me to my final point, the hobby bubbled popped because everyone who "invested" a boatload of cash into 90s junk wax believed that someday it will be worth something, killing off alot of the real collectors and driving up prices, I can't count how many times I've had people tell me about their junk wax collection and say "if I would've held onto them they'd be worth a fortune". When it stops become recreation, when it stops becoming a hobby that people do to have fun that's when a market dies and that's exactly why the market crashed in the 90s and why I feel the entire prospect market is going to crash. Eventually cooler heads will prevail and you'll realize you're never going to make your money back

That being said I'm still actively involved in the hobby and enjoy myself but I'm defiantly not to worried about making every penny I put into my collection back I just do it to have fun and have a piece of the games I love

My thoughts

[pdxprospect]

Talk about what brought a number of People back to the hobby....

Stephen Strasburg back to back with Bryce Harper in 2009 & 2010.

Tanaka has pretty much healed the Yankee fan base that was disgusted with Alex Rodriguez.

I see a lot of good going on in the hobby right now.
This is so true.
After collecting heavily from 87 to 93 I got back in my old card shop and bought my first card in 2010...a BC strasburg for $50. Of course, as much as that may have been an overpayment, the amount of money I have spent then makes it utterly insurmountable.

[mfw13]

Talk about what brought a number of People back to the hobby....

For me it was Topps Heritage....especially the first few years when they had licenses for all four sports....

[thescout]

people got sick of inserts and parallels.

yes, those same ones that are sort of valuable today since people are getting sick of jersey cards.

What percent of "Jersey" cards come from putting a $10 fake ass mesh on a guy for one second then cutting it up 99 percent...jersey cards are the dumbest trend ever

[joeybats19]

It is ironic that there is a near unanimous consensus that the bubble burst in card collecting in the 90's, and yet we are arguably in the hottest market for the hobby ever. The fact is that the entire card collecting universe is constantly morphing, and in all likelihood will continue to change.

At the end of the 80's and beginning of the 90's there was a fairly clear prospecting rush, with people doling out big money on guys like Brien Taylor, gregg jeffries, Todd Van Poppel, not to mention the guys who actually did make it such as griffey, Thomas, Bonds, canseco etc. The card manufacturers were happy to oblige, and so we started to get products like Classic, Stadium Club, Studio, etc.

Realistically, there are only so many times that a "prospector" can take a huge hit, before becoming disillusioned, and so as many collectors started to ramp up what they paid, only to find out that they didn't quite find the holy grail they left.

In the meantime, card companies figured out ways to keep the collecting universe alive. Short prints, autographs, relics, parallels. The collectors found new focus, and drove on. The bag holders of not so short prints, and can't miss rookies left. (Now I agree that the card manufacturers printed like mad, and devalued even the best of rookie cards, but that just devalued base cards even more.)

So now, we print an autograph of just about every 15 year old that knows how to either throw a ball, or swing a bat. We argue as to which card will be the most sought after of a 18-22 yr old that has never faced Major League talent, and pay extraordinary values for that guy. Some people think that if you corner the market on a guy, then you can hold them hostage if your guy makes it.

We blame the card manufacturers for messing up our very own greed in the hobby. Completely oblivious to the fact that three to four times per year, people are finding the next guy, who is a once in a generation talent. You want autos of players, they are giving you autos. I can just imagine Topps coming out with baby pictures of "Tomorrows Stars" with a hand print in paint, that will truly be THE Rookie Card to have.

The reason the card industry changed in the 90's was because speculators had too much of a good thing, and we ran out of buyers. We aren't there yet, but not too far away. The last big push came between 2010 to present. During that time big money has been spent on the following players:

Strasburg, Harper, Hosmer, Lawrie, Taveras, Cole, Bradley Jr., Baez, Machado, Darvish Harvey, Jofer, Gallo, Polanco, Buxton, Frazier, Bryant, Abreu, Springer, Goldschmidt, Jon Gray, Meadows, and others. that is over 20 once in a decade talents that the consensus holds as can't miss, when realistically 4-5 guys will reach that level.

The collectors that are pumping the new hottest thing will get burned, and in the meantime, they are forcing the rational collector to look elsewhwere. It is no surprise that the Topps Finest Refractor set from last year attracted so many colid collectors. Ginter's and other sets have strong followings, and even base topps has some nice collectible sets. The industry won't die just because speculators lose their shirts, but that breed of collectors will be burned, and left for dead.

[Morgoth]

Eh, the old timers in the hobby, the ones collecting from the 70's into the 80's got burned when they literally couldn't collect one of every card. Up until around 1993 that was possible but 1993 onwards it was an impossibility.

I think being a OCD collector for years and then realizing you just can't have every Cub's or Braves card printed would be pretty awful and make you want to give up.

The companies also just released bizarre and stupid sets during this time period as well. The Fractal Matrix set is still confusing people to this day.

[HTownFan]

Some interesting articles:

Are the cards I collected in the 90's worth anything? (http://www.sportscardradio.com/insider-hobby-tips/93-are-the-cards-i-collected-in-the-90s-worth-anything)

Thoughts on Sports Card Industry 1990-2012 (http://www.sportscardradio.com/insider-hobby-tips/1287-thoughs-on-sports-card-industry-1990-2012)

Why Sports Card Values from the Late-80s and Early-90s Are Low (http://www.cardboardconnection.com/why-sports-cards-early-90s-worthless)

Guide to Valuable 1990's Sports Cards (http://www.cardboardconnection.com/the-90s-underprinted-cards-in-the-decade-of-excess)

HTownFan

[michael3322]

Some interesting articles:

Are the cards I collected in the 90's worth anything? (http://www.sportscardradio.com/insider-hobby-tips/93-are-the-cards-i-collected-in-the-90s-worth-anything)

Thoughts on Sports Card Industry 1990-2012 (http://www.sportscardradio.com/insider-hobby-tips/1287-thoughs-on-sports-card-industry-1990-2012)

Why Sports Card Values from the Late-80s and Early-90s Are Low (http://www.cardboardconnection.com/why-sports-cards-early-90s-worthless)

Guide to Valuable 1990's Sports Cards (http://www.cardboardconnection.com/the-90s-underprinted-cards-in-the-decade-of-excess)

HTownFan


Thanks for sharing these! Great pieces.

[amazingpacks]

Why blame the "investors" for entering the hobby????????????????? Its the dealers that made the "pitch" and sold buying cases as good "investments".

in the early 1990's the dealers are the most greedy and should be held most responsible for the bubble burst. Dealers are the first to learn how to search packs, dealers was the first to over sell pre orders and not sell to the customers that had presale orders and turn around and sell at top dollar.

Dealers set the image of the hobby and in the 90's that was a horrible image.

[HTownFan]

In one of my earlier posts in this thread, I shared a link to a story. Part of the story talked about how the age of collectors, 40s on up. Yesterday I did see a couple kids at the card store I go to. They were there with their dad. One said he was nine. He bought a box of 1989 Donruss baseball. It cost less than $10. His brother (early teens) bought a box of 2002 (I think) Upper Deck Rookies & Prospects and a couple McGwire 1987 Topps cards. I do remember seeing some kids at the June Tristar show in Houston buying stuff. One kid was trying to sell some higher dollar cards to a dealer. My 15 year old cousin collects cards. Maybe these are just anomalies, but I think there is still hope for the younger generations when it comes to card collecting.

At the store I bought 10 packs of 1986 Topps baseball for $10 & a box of 1988 Topps baseball for $7.50. I had more fun opening those packs than anything from today. I got a Reggie Jackson card out of one of the '86 packs. I was more excited about that than any memorabilia or autograph cards I've pulled the last two years.

HTownFan

[HTownFan]

Good article:

I thought my baseball card collection had value. It did, but only to me. | First Person | Indy Week (http://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/i-thought-my-baseball-card-collection-had-value-it-did-but-only-to-me/Content?oid=3695583)

HTownFan

[SportsAutoFreak]

Didn't start collecting until 2003-2004. So my question is, when did set designs become bland and unimpressive? As someone whose main interest is in 1950s and 1960s cards, how did the designs go from what they were then to what they were now? Seemingly the most recent outside the box set design for Topps was in 2007. I cannot think of another set since then that was very memorable according to design. The 1950s and 1960s had goldmines as far as set designs go, with few exceptions, if you ask me. The 1970s wasn't as magical, but the 1972 and 1973 sets were tolerable. I'm not terribly high on many 1980s sets, though the 1987 set I think was the first Topps set I ever truly fell in love with. Now it's not what it used to be and that's my question. I hope 2015 has a more creative design.

[bobthewondercat]

Didn't start collecting until 2003-2004. So my question is, when did set designs become bland and unimpressive? As someone whose main interest is in 1950s and 1960s cards, how did the designs go from what they were then to what they were now? Seemingly the most recent outside the box set design for Topps was in 2007. I cannot think of another set since then that was very memorable according to design. The 1950s and 1960s had goldmines as far as set designs go, with few exceptions, if you ask me. The 1970s wasn't as magical, but the 1972 and 1973 sets were tolerable. I'm not terribly high on many 1980s sets, though the 1987 set I think was the first Topps set I ever truly fell in love with. Now it's not what it used to be and that's my question. I hope 2015 has a more creative design.

Base Topps card design is meant to be "bland" now so that they can do a billion color, chrome, refractor, parallel, GU and AU variants of the design. It's just a different beast now. If you want stuff that is flashy / unusual looking, there's plenty out there, just not Topps base cards.

[mfw13]

It is ironic that there is a near unanimous consensus that the bubble burst in card collecting in the 90's, and yet we are arguably in the hottest market for the hobby ever. The fact is that the entire card collecting universe is constantly morphing, and in all likelihood will continue to change.

At the end of the 80's and beginning of the 90's there was a fairly clear prospecting rush, with people doling out big money on guys like Brien Taylor, gregg jeffries, Todd Van Poppel, not to mention the guys who actually did make it such as griffey, Thomas, Bonds, canseco etc. The card manufacturers were happy to oblige, and so we started to get products like Classic, Stadium Club, Studio, etc.

Realistically, there are only so many times that a "prospector" can take a huge hit, before becoming disillusioned, and so as many collectors started to ramp up what they paid, only to find out that they didn't quite find the holy grail they left.

In the meantime, card companies figured out ways to keep the collecting universe alive. Short prints, autographs, relics, parallels. The collectors found new focus, and drove on. The bag holders of not so short prints, and can't miss rookies left. (Now I agree that the card manufacturers printed like mad, and devalued even the best of rookie cards, but that just devalued base cards even more.)

So now, we print an autograph of just about every 15 year old that knows how to either throw a ball, or swing a bat. We argue as to which card will be the most sought after of a 18-22 yr old that has never faced Major League talent, and pay extraordinary values for that guy. Some people think that if you corner the market on a guy, then you can hold them hostage if your guy makes it.

We blame the card manufacturers for messing up our very own greed in the hobby. Completely oblivious to the fact that three to four times per year, people are finding the next guy, who is a once in a generation talent. You want autos of players, they are giving you autos. I can just imagine Topps coming out with baby pictures of "Tomorrows Stars" with a hand print in paint, that will truly be THE Rookie Card to have.

The reason the card industry changed in the 90's was because speculators had too much of a good thing, and we ran out of buyers. We aren't there yet, but not too far away. The last big push came between 2010 to present. During that time big money has been spent on the following players:

Strasburg, Harper, Hosmer, Lawrie, Taveras, Cole, Bradley Jr., Baez, Machado, Darvish Harvey, Jofer, Gallo, Polanco, Buxton, Frazier, Bryant, Abreu, Springer, Goldschmidt, Jon Gray, Meadows, and others. that is over 20 once in a decade talents that the consensus holds as can't miss, when realistically 4-5 guys will reach that level.

The collectors that are pumping the new hottest thing will get burned, and in the meantime, they are forcing the rational collector to look elsewhwere. It is no surprise that the Topps Finest Refractor set from last year attracted so many colid collectors. Ginter's and other sets have strong followings, and even base topps has some nice collectible sets. The industry won't die just because speculators lose their shirts, but that breed of collectors will be burned, and left for dead.

Agree 200%.

I'll never stop collecting (I'm 44 and have been collecting for 37 years).

However the speculators, most of whom weren't even around during the 90's bubble, will either morph into real collectors or leave the hobby once they start losing money.

Ten years from now, we'll all be looking back and wondering why people were shelling out obscene amount of money for parallels and other low-numbered cards...

[HTownFan]

Agree 200%.

I'll never stop collecting (I'm 44 and have been collecting for 37 years).

However the speculators, most of whom weren't even around during the 90's bubble, will either morph into real collectors or leave the hobby once they start losing money.

Ten years from now, we'll all be looking back and wondering why people were shelling out obscene amount of money for parallels and other low-numbered cards...

I thought the speculators leaving the hobby in the 90s was the reason the bubble burst.

HTownFan

[HTownFan]

Good article:

The Rise and Fall of Baseball Cards ? Dave Jamieson ? Mint Condition | (http://failuremag.com/feature/article/the_rise_and_fall_of_baseball_cards/)

Some others:

The Rise And Fall Of A Hobby, In 12 Baseball Cards (http://deadspin.com/5505754/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-hobby-in-12-baseball-cards/)

Baseball Cards And The Current Economy - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/28/baseball-cards-economy-inflation-opinions-columnists-john-tamny.html)

Card collapse: Sports cards stores are becoming harder to find as collectors dwindle and business wanes. - Tulsa World (Tulsa, OK) (http://yoursportsmemorabiliastorehere.blogspot.com/2012/09/card-collapse-sports-cards-stores-are.html)

HTownFan

[k13]

There's only so much disposable income out there that collects.
90's are not to far away and already here for 99% of cards.

Really a game of hot potato.

[mfw13]

Didn't start collecting until 2003-2004. So my question is, when did set designs become bland and unimpressive? As someone whose main interest is in 1950s and 1960s cards, how did the designs go from what they were then to what they were now? Seemingly the most recent outside the box set design for Topps was in 2007. I cannot think of another set since then that was very memorable according to design. The 1950s and 1960s had goldmines as far as set designs go, with few exceptions, if you ask me. The 1970s wasn't as magical, but the 1972 and 1973 sets were tolerable. I'm not terribly high on many 1980s sets, though the 1987 set I think was the first Topps set I ever truly fell in love with. Now it's not what it used to be and that's my question. I hope 2015 has a more creative design.

I think the main reason for this is that design does not affect sales any more.A good design doesn't meaningfully increase sales, nor does a bad design meaningfully hurt them. So, of course manufacturers do not put much effort (or $$$) into the design process.

Since probably 80-90% of sales volume now comes from flippers and investors who care only about hot prospects and "hits", good design has largely become an afterthought.

[Matesamo]

This is a dang fine thread of information. i just spent an hour reading all the links that were posted in the various messages. Very interesting reading.

[benshobbies]

That was an interesting article about "Are my cards from the 90s worth anything."

I notice they only focus on the super-high end aspect of the hobby.

Every now and then someone thinks they are generous by dumping a 5,000 count box of 80s & 90s cards on me.

I've found these to sell really well....for baseball anyway.

Refractors of any Types.
Die Cuts. Especially the early ones.
Gold Parallels from 1992-1995 topps of Hall of Famers & Jeters so forth.
Collector's Choice Silver Script & Gold Script cards. Many collectors nowadays are still missing many Gold Script SP's.

In BKB the French, Collector's Choice Spanish & Bilingual cards sell really well from all the big players in the 90s & of course Kobe RC's

Anything UNC, Michigan, or Florida State usually sell really well.

I think its just the manner of sorting through all the overproduced base to find these inserts is what really matters. I saves these boxes for a rainy day.

[JWBlue]

. Ebay was just the final slap in the face to collecters who saw their prized rookies sell in lots of 100's for a few bucks.
Way more sellers than buyers.



This I will not understand. How did these sellers obtain so many and them sell them for nothing?

Is there more counterfeiting than we realize?

[VinnyH]

This I will not understand. How did these sellers obtain so many and them sell them for nothing?

Is there more counterfeiting than we realize?There was a company in the late 80s/early 90s who bought bulk sheets of Topps cards and cut them to sell massive lots. They supplied dealers who sold in SCD (Sports Collectors Digest).
I bought 1,000 Bernie Williams rookies for about 22 cents each. I think I still have 999 of them in the closet somehere. Later on you would realize that Topps was just cranking out product on all levels and there was no value in any of the cards.
Luckily I couldn't afford to invest much so I never lost much.

VinnyH

[babybull]

The internet made 99% of cards easily accessible, which killed the value of everything except the rarest, most in-demand cards.

I don't see how making any card available to any collector would kill the hobby. Yes, it would destroy legions of dealers and card shops, but wouldn't the hobby be enhanced if a person could find whatever card they wanted?

[JWBlue]

There was a company in the late 80s/early 90s who bought bulk sheets of Topps cards and cut them to sell massive lots. They supplied dealers who sold in SCD (Sports Collectors Digest).
I bought 1,000 Bernie Williams rookies for about 22 cents each. I think I still have 999 of them in the closet somehere. Later on you would realize that Topps was just cranking out product on all levels and there was no value in any of the cards.
Luckily I couldn't afford to invest much so I never lost much.

VinnyH

Did they do this with Fleer and Donruss as well?

[VinnyH]

Did they do this with Fleer and Donruss as well?
Didn't see it as much so I don't think so. I thought most of the bulk Donruss and Fleer lots came from factory set cases being broken.
Topps also sold cases of vending boxes back then so there was no shortage of cards.

VinnyH

[mfw13]

This I will not understand. How did these sellers obtain so many and them sell them for nothing?

The increased amount of information made available with the advent of the Internet made everyone realize that supply was much greater than had been previously thought.

[Archangel1775]

Too many sets, too high a print run and the strike. I should have listened to my friend and bought Magic cards, instead I have 93 Fleer basketball and Stadium Club baseball First Day productions

[no10pin]

I don't see how making any card available to any collector would kill the hobby. Yes, it would destroy legions of dealers and card shops, but wouldn't the hobby be enhanced if a person could find whatever card they wanted?

In one way yes, but when an entire planet can list their cards for sale at the same time, everyone realized that even stuff from the 60s and 70s was pretty plentiful.

[Morgoth]

I don't see how making any card available to any collector would kill the hobby. Yes, it would destroy legions of dealers and card shops, but wouldn't the hobby be enhanced if a person could find whatever card they wanted?

No it actually destroyed the community aspect of collecting. Even in the early 90's the only way to find hard inserts and vintage was to go to shows or hobby shops.

Collectors started creating networks finding cards for each other, scanning card shops while traveling, going on the road to shows in other states etc.

It made finding those hard cards that much more meaningful. Finding a cool card for a friend was even better.

Nowadays you just have to spend 10 seconds on ebay to find that same card, it just doesn't have the same feel.

[rseve43]

I don't see how making any card available to any collector would kill the hobby. Yes, it would destroy legions of dealers and card shops, but wouldn't the hobby be enhanced if a person could find whatever card they wanted?

No it actually destroyed the community aspect of collecting. Even in the early 90's the only way to find hard inserts and vintage was to go to shows or hobby shops.

Collectors started creating networks finding cards for each other, scanning card shops while traveling, going on the road to shows in other states etc.

It made finding those hard cards that much more meaningful. Finding a cool card for a friend was even better.

Nowadays you just have to spend 10 seconds on ebay to find that same card, it just doesn't have the same feel.


This is an excellent point. And I want to further highlight your last sentence… because that easy availability of everything is a big part of what destroyed values. Even though there were millions of copies of these cards, you still had to go and find them. If your local shop didn't have them, you would have to go somewhere else to find them. It's all about the perception of scarcity PLUS accessibility that creates value. But when everything is easy to get and easy to find… The so-called "bubble" bursts, and then it just comes down to the simple principles of supply and demand. In the instance of late 80s and early 90s baseball cards, supply dramatically outweighed demand when the Internet became a factor.

[Steve2112]

I really like this thread...lots of interesting perspectives from all kinds of collectors with different preferences and motives. I personally never stopped collecting, though my focus changed in the late '90s, when I was a teen, from simply amassing cards to getting them autographed (in-person or TTM), and starting to get into cert auto cards. Since I don't go after very high-dollar cards, and I don't sell, my approach to the hobby really hasn't changed in the past 15 years.

As far as shows go, I don't even have an Ebay account, so to me, shows (especially the larger regional ones like Philly and Greater Boston) still have that magic, where you feel the electricity and atmosphere of the room when you walk in, and the excitement of not knowing what you'll find. My favorite part of shows is looking through $1-$2 monster boxes of cert autos. There's no better feeling than finding a cheap cert of a guy I saw in the International League who went on to the majors, or a guy who played for or against Syracuse in basketball, or just a random guy whom you're surprised to see in a $2 bin. That's what makes shows amazing for me...not the endless tables of vintage, or the locked display cases of high-end...it's the big boxes of top-loaded cheap certs of people I've seen either in-person or on TV who help make up the fabric of the sports we love.

[CharlieHustle]

In the instance of late 80s and early 90s baseball cards, supply dramatically outweighed demand when the Internet became a factor.

For anybody is this thread who says that the internet burst the bubble, STOP. You either weren't there or you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. This isn't opinion, this is fact. Ebay wasn't even mainstream until 1997. Sure it was around in 1996, but it wasn't a "thing", until 1997. Card shows, card shops and collecting in general was dead well before then.
The baseball strike of 1994 is, without a doubt, the largest contributor in a short list of reasons why the card bubble burst. Baseball cards made up the majority of card shop inventory and card show inventory. Baseball players were the largest draws at shows for autograph signings. In 1994, that stopped. Regular shows went from 200+ tables to 40 tables. Shops went from 5-10 per city, to 2-3 per city. It happened that suddenly and the internet/ebay had absolutely NOTHING to do with that.

[rseve43]

For anybody is this thread who says that the internet burst the bubble, STOP. You either weren't there or you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. This isn't opinion, this is fact. Ebay wasn't even mainstream until 1997. Sure it was around in 1996, but it wasn't a "thing", until 1997. Card shows, card shops and collecting in general was dead well before then.
The baseball strike of 1994 is, without a doubt, the largest contributor in a short list of reasons why the card bubble burst. Baseball cards made up the majority of card shop inventory and card show inventory. Baseball players were the largest draws at shows for autograph signings. In 1994, that stopped. Regular shows went from 200+ tables to 40 tables. Shops went from 5-10 per city, to 2-3 per city. It happened that suddenly and the internet/ebay had absolutely NOTHING to do with that.


I'm assuming you're talking about the bubble of card popularity rather than strictly value...my post refers strictly to card values. The internet and ebay both have quite a lot to do with that.

[Morgoth]

For anybody is this thread who says that the internet burst the bubble, STOP. You either weren't there or you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. This isn't opinion, this is fact. Ebay wasn't even mainstream until 1997. Sure it was around in 1996, but it wasn't a "thing", until 1997. Card shows, card shops and collecting in general was dead well before then.
The baseball strike of 1994 is, without a doubt, the largest contributor in a short list of reasons why the card bubble burst. Baseball cards made up the majority of card shop inventory and card show inventory. Baseball players were the largest draws at shows for autograph signings. In 1994, that stopped. Regular shows went from 200+ tables to 40 tables. Shops went from 5-10 per city, to 2-3 per city. It happened that suddenly and the internet/ebay had absolutely NOTHING to do with that.

There were tons of Hobby Shops hanging on still in 1997 around my areas but by 2001 it was a ghost town of dead hobby shops. Most that survived did so by converting to Magic, Toy's, Comics etc. and sports cards became smaller and smaller part of their inventory.

[ctbinvestments]

For anybody is this thread who says that the internet burst the bubble, STOP. You either weren't there or you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. This isn't opinion, this is fact. Ebay wasn't even mainstream until 1997. Sure it was around in 1996, but it wasn't a "thing", until 1997. Card shows, card shops and collecting in general was dead well before then.
The baseball strike of 1994 is, without a doubt, the largest contributor in a short list of reasons why the card bubble burst. Baseball cards made up the majority of card shop inventory and card show inventory. Baseball players were the largest draws at shows for autograph signings. In 1994, that stopped. Regular shows went from 200+ tables to 40 tables. Shops went from 5-10 per city, to 2-3 per city. It happened that suddenly and the internet/ebay had absolutely NOTHING to do with that.

This is an excellent point. And I want to further highlight your last sentence… because that easy availability of everything is a big part of what destroyed values. Even though there were millions of copies of these cards, you still had to go and find them. If your local shop didn't have them, you would have to go somewhere else to find them. It's all about the perception of scarcity PLUS accessibility that creates value. But when everything is easy to get and easy to find… The so-called "bubble" bursts, and then it just comes down to the simple principles of supply and demand. In the instance of late 80s and early 90s baseball cards, supply dramatically outweighed demand when the Internet became a factor.

I disagree the internet didn't single handily kill the market but it was a big factor but that same factor actually helped the market as well. All the internet did was truly show how many copies of "key" rookie cards such as Joe Montana, Roger Clemens or Mark McGwire there actually were. Anything that has value has so because of supply and demand. The demand was still there for all of the "hot" rookies but the supply was also there. There was a combination of things that I think led to the decline in baseball/Football/Basketball card prices when people figured out they could get one any day of the week online.

#1 was the strike as previously mentioned.
#2 Baseball gained alot of steam from 1989-1993 that wasn't substainable....Upper Deck brought more recognition back to baseball as it was a change from the regular topps/donruss/fleer. Then you had Ken Griffey Jr debuting and becoming a superstar. Other "key" products were released like 1990 Leaf, 1991 Stadium Club, 1993 Finest which pressed the envelop further than any previous sets had with parallels and new "premium" card designs. By the end of 1993 there was nothing "new" for baseball to bring out and the strike was coming.
#3 there were alot of other collectible markets that gained alot of steam from 1990-1996 that took speculators and hobby money out of the card market and into comics (Silver age rush, Valiant Bubble, etc) and yes even beanie babies. You could seriously buy new issues of Spiderman, Valiant, and others on Friday and sell them for 3-4 times more a week later. Hobby shops were ordering hundreds of copies of each (and now must order about 15-20 per title) and you could do the same by standing in line and buying beanie babies and immediately reselling them for profit as soon as you walked out the door.

I have been in the collectibles market since 1986 and have seen more ups and downs than most on this board. I could go on and on about the changes in the card industry that made more "bubbles" to break in 1996, 1998, 2001, 2007, etc. It's not like the market hasn't crashed before and it will crash again. There are a few "new" twists that I believe will keep certain cards afloat and keep some values higher than ever previously seen before. One of these is the fact that new autograph rookie cards aren't produced as heavily as any previous hall of fame rookies were. We are still a few years away from our "first" HOF player that had a Rookie autograph to know exactly but I'm willing to bet a Pujols BC Autograph RC will always hold a substantial value and probably increase due to the fact of it's limited availability and demand for it. Imagine if Mantle, Mays, Nolan Ryan, Rickey Henderson, Gwynn, Griffey, etc all had only 1500-2000 copies of their rookie card. What would they be worth even unautographed? There's probably 100,000 Mantle 52' topps out there and several hundred thousand or more Ryan's, henderson's etc. What is Michael Jordan had an autograph rc limited to 1500 copies? That card would be 30,000+ because eventually they would make it into collectors hands and none would be readily available. It's all about supply and demand so I don't think the rookie autograph market is going to burst on hall of fame caliber type players.

[CharlieHustle]

I'm assuming you're talking about the bubble of card popularity rather than strictly value...my post refers strictly to card values. The internet and ebay both have quite a lot to do with that.

I'm talking about what the last 4 pages of responses have been talking about...the 90's bubble. If you want to define it all the way down and only refer to the "value" aspect of the 90's bubble, you're still wrong.
Again, not an opinion, a fact.
I dont mean to pick on you specifically or try to be combative, but facts are facts. Cards were good in 1993, they were dead in 1994. SOME of the dealers that made the quick leap and focused on basketball and football were able to hang in there, but baseball, which represented a LARGE portion of the card business was dead in the water. Value was gone, liquidity was gone, collectibility was gone, popularity was gone. However you want to define the 90's bubble, it was burst in late 1994, early 1995. I went to shows in 1995 where I was the only shopping customer in a row of 20 tables. That would have been unheard of in 1993. More specifically, as it relates to your point about value, the "bargin bins" became insanely popular in 1994-1996, as dealers tried to blowout $5 BV cards, for "3 for a dollar" or something to that effect. Again, cards going for less than 10% of Beckett value would have been unheard of in the early 90's, but not in 1994-95.

[CharlieHustle]

There were tons of Hobby Shops hanging on still in 1997 around my areas but by 2001 it was a ghost town of dead hobby shops. Most that survived did so by converting to Magic, Toy's, Comics etc. and sports cards became smaller and smaller part of their inventory.

As compared to 1990-92?
For me, in 1992, I had 6 shops in walking distance of my house.
In 1997, there were 4, within a 40 minute drive.
Of those 4, 2 closed by 2003.

[lindeman79]

Correct, bubble burst long before internet.

Agree. The party was over by 96. Slowly started 93ish.

[rseve43]

I'm talking about what the last 4 pages of responses have been talking about...the 90's bubble. If you want to define it all the way down and only refer to the "value" aspect of the 90's bubble, you're still wrong.
Again, not an opinion, a fact.
I dont mean to pick on you specifically or try to be combative, but facts are facts. Cards were good in 1993, they were dead in 1994. SOME of the dealers that made the quick leap and focused on basketball and football were able to hang in there, but baseball, which represented a LARGE portion of the card business was dead in the water. Value was gone, liquidity was gone, collectibility was gone, popularity was gone. However you want to define the 90's bubble, it was burst in late 1994, early 1995. I went to shows in 1995 where I was the only shopping customer in a row of 20 tables. That would have been unheard of in 1993. More specifically, as it relates to your point about value, the "bargin bins" became insanely popular in 1994-1996, as dealers tried to blowout $5 BV cards, for "3 for a dollar" or something to that effect. Again, cards going for less than 10% of Beckett value would have been unheard of in the early 90's, but not in 1994-95.

Not worried about someone disagreeing with me on a message board, I'm a big kid and can handle it :cool:

I'm not going to argue your point because I was 5 in 1994 and while I was a collector already, I certainly didn't care or understand the intricacies of the baseball card industry. I guess I look at it more from the standpoint of perceived value and I'm speaking more about why current prices are low rather than the actual act of the bubble bursting. A good example is your less-serious population of card owners. Some of these people STILL think they have a gold mine in their closet of late 80s and early 90s stuff. They go to ebay and realize the same cards don't sell for 99 cents and their dream is gone. If the internet didn't exist, wouldn't you think a person would be able to move those same cards for more in-person? I would imagine so. Availability matters, because availability IS the immediate supply. There is a finite number of each card that has ever been made, but if there is only one copy that surfaces over the course of a year, it will probably sell for more than if the same card surfaced once every day.

[ctbinvestments]

Agree. The party was over by 96. Slowly started 93ish.

Party was over in 1994 thru early 1998 but then began again. Sosa & McGwire's home run chase brought collectors back and with it new sets/innovations and higher "hype" prices than ever before.

[base set]

aside from different parts of the decade, perhaps we are all thinking about two different bubbles - prices in general, and production

[Rooftop]

1989 was the beginning of over production.

[BostonNut]

1989 was the beginning of over production.

Yeah...1987 Topps and 1988 Donruss are incredibly short printed.

[Steve2112]

Yeah...1987 Topps and 1988 Donruss are incredibly short printed.

Oh gosh...is 1988 Donruss the most overproduced baseball product of all-time? I was between 5 and 6 years old that year, and eventually my childhood nightmares changed from monsters and Godzilla to futuristic blue card borders and Dale Murphy's advertising face.

[rats60]

I'm talking about what the last 4 pages of responses have been talking about...the 90's bubble. If you want to define it all the way down and only refer to the "value" aspect of the 90's bubble, you're still wrong.
Again, not an opinion, a fact.
I dont mean to pick on you specifically or try to be combative, but facts are facts. Cards were good in 1993, they were dead in 1994. SOME of the dealers that made the quick leap and focused on basketball and football were able to hang in there, but baseball, which represented a LARGE portion of the card business was dead in the water. Value was gone, liquidity was gone, collectibility was gone, popularity was gone. However you want to define the 90's bubble, it was burst in late 1994, early 1995. I went to shows in 1995 where I was the only shopping customer in a row of 20 tables. That would have been unheard of in 1993. More specifically, as it relates to your point about value, the "bargin bins" became insanely popular in 1994-1996, as dealers tried to blowout $5 BV cards, for "3 for a dollar" or something to that effect. Again, cards going for less than 10% of Beckett value would have been unheard of in the early 90's, but not in 1994-95.

This is just wrong. Basketball past up Baseball in popularity in late 1992 and through 1993. The strike of 1994 may have hurt Baseball sales, but Basketball was still strong through 1998. Maybe shows were bad in your area and shops closed up, but not around here.

[rats60]

1989 was the beginning of over production.

The 1986 Topps Traded set was the beginning of overproduction.

[Skipscards]

It's pretty simple really. The card companies got greedy. In 1984 Donruss was very scarce. In 1985 they expanded to more markets but were still uncommon. In 1986 and 1987 they expanded further while 87 also included more product (Opening Day). In 1988 they signed a distribution deal with anyone and everyone. You could find their cards at every conceivable place you could spend money. This continued through the early 90s. Upper Deck did come along in 1989 with a higher quality card, Griffey #1, lower production rates, and $1 packs (prior to this pack sold for 3 and 4 for $1). This created new demand. Error cards were also pretty hot (the Billy Ripken card, the reverse negatives in UD and Donruss, etc). Card companies tried ginmicks like this throughout that time to keep things interesting. After a while, the market was way oversaturated. Ultimately the supply was so great it out distanced the demand (especially as the demand started to wane with the 80s children getting older and the baseball strike both diminishing interest in baseball).

Perspective may differ from market to market, but this was my experience in Jacksonville. Also, I've broadbrushed a bit. Topps, Fleer, and Score did plenty of overproducing. In fact so many card companies also contributed substantially to the over-supply.

We also witnessed the beginning of premium sets with Stadium Club and Ultra but nothing like we see today.

[lindeman79]

1989 was the beginning of over production.

Yeah this guy is wrong on many level with one sentence.

[CharlieHustle]

This is just wrong. Basketball past up Baseball in popularity in late 1992 and through 1993. The strike of 1994 may have hurt Baseball sales, but Basketball was still strong through 1998. Maybe shows were bad in your area and shops closed up, but not around here.

Yes, I understand that, which is why I said:
"SOME of the dealers that made the quick leap and focused on basketball and football were able to hang in there, but baseball, which represented a LARGE portion of the card business was dead in the water."

Baseball was the work horse of the card industry and the dealers who got too deep into baseball chasing a quick buck, were gone by 1995.
I'm leaving some things out, under the assumption that everyone here understands what it means when a bubble "bursts". Apparently I shouldn't do that as the posters of this topic are confused between "what's wrong with the card industry?" and "why did the 90's bubble burst?".
These are 2 different topics.

[rats60]

Yes, I understand that, which is why I said:
"SOME of the dealers that made the quick leap and focused on basketball and football were able to hang in there, but baseball, which represented a LARGE portion of the card business was dead in the water."

Baseball was the work horse of the card industry and the dealers who got too deep into baseball chasing a quick buck, were gone by 1995.
I'm leaving some things out, under the assumption that everyone here understands what it means when a bubble "bursts". Apparently I shouldn't do that as the posters of this topic are confused between "what's wrong with the card industry?" and "why did the 90's bubble burst?".
These are 2 different topics.

Except there was no bursting of the bubble during the 1994 strike. Prices remained strong, but new card sales slowed as collectors had moved away from baseball into basketball chasing Shaq Rcs and Michael Jordan cards.Further proof that there was no bubble bursting, UD Griffey Rc at 100.00+ and 85 McGuire hitting 200+.

I'm not aware of any dealers who were selling strictly baseball after 1989-1990. 89 Score Fb, 89 Hoops Bkb, Upper Deck Fb, Bkb, Hky, ect. Long before the 94 strike, everyone had deversified into all the major sports.

[Skipscards]

Except there was no bursting of the bubble during the 1994 strike. Prices remained strong, but new card sales slowed as collectors had moved away from baseball into basketball chasing Shaq Rcs and Michael Jordan cards.Further proof that there was no bubble bursting, UD Griffey Rc at 100.00+ and 85 McGuire hitting 200+.

I'm not aware of any dealers who were selling strictly baseball after 1989-1990. 89 Score Fb, 89 Hoops Bkb, Upper Deck Fb, Bkb, Hky, ect. Long before the 94 strike, everyone had deversified into all the major sports.

Big Mac's 85 Topps didn't launch into the $200+ stratosphere until the chase of 98.

[edgeusaf1]

All the answers listed here answer a different question. The internet absolutely did NOT cause the 90's bubble to burst. The 90's bubble was burst long before the internet, and ebay, came into great popularity. If anyone here remembers, 1995-1997 was freezing, ice cold in the collecting world. Shows died out, product was being released at an unmanageable pace and wax prices were through the roof (not in a good way). IMO, the bubble was burst when wax packs started to routinely cross the threshold of $5 a pack, timed perfectly with the baseball strike. It started with 1990 Leaf, then 1991 Stadium Club and 1991 OPC Premiere, then 1992 Ultra and 1992 Bowman, then Shaquille O'Neal came on to the scene and basketball products were $3-5 a pack for standard base cards. Everything started becoming more and more "premium", but the value wasn't being returned through the product (who remembers opening $60 boxes and the biggest "hit" being a $3 insert card). Then the real killers, 1993 SP and 1993 Finest. They created a temporary frenzy, but had a reverse effect in 1994 when everyone doubled down on the 1994 versions of the same sets and the baseball strike happened. The strike was like a door slamming shut on the collecting community. People just stopped buying cards cold.

Fast forward to 1998 and the homerun race between McGwire and Sosa. All of a sudden, old sealed product became popular again. The internet made cards more accessible and all of this gave way to the next "boom" in card collecting...graded cards.
So, IMO, you guys have it all wrong. The internet actually brought card collecting back, it didn't burst the bubble. The internet filled people's heads with dollar signs as they snatched up factory sets, massive surplus lots, and sealed product, looking for key superstar cards to send in for grading. Then in 2001, S/n rookies and autos really took off and became the new "must haves" for collectors, which kept things hot for a couple of years. The next cool down period was probably either 2002 or 2003 through 2006. In 2007, most collectors made their way back to collecting because of blaster boxes at Target/Walmart. So yes, it could be argued that the internet killed the card market in the early/mid 2000's, but as far as the 90's bubble goes, that was burst several years before people even had the internet in their homes.

This is it right here! Hitting the nail on the head!

[Chicosbailbonds]

1989 was the beginning of over production.

I remember 87 as being very overproduced (or whenever Canseco's ROokie was). Was out of hand after that. I have some old SCD's from the 80's and you could buy bricks of 500 of your fav player, insane.

500 Matt Nokes or Kevin Maas rookies anyone?

[bluejet66]

Cards such as these continue to haunt me in my nightmares:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y487/bluejet66/DSCN2681_zps0e991d87.jpg

Of course, as Im sure with all of us, whenever a friend/acquaintance/relative claims to have "old cards" its usually those. Can I at least get some that are older than 1984?

[Melagoo]

It was because the Blue Jays won the World Series in 92, 93 and 94 (since there was a strike) ... :flex::flex: :p:p

[Stat Monsters]

Supply and Demand.

First off, too many brands and sub-brand releases, so any given player had way too many cards including insert cards

Secondly, overproduction where the printing presses were cranking them out in masses

Thirdly, there were too many wannabe investors in the hobby buying to sit on product holding them hostage, only to eventually lose patience and due to lack of experience/education didn't know how to properly flip/turn their investments so what was hot yesterday was getting cold fast tomorrow and those investors were willing to take loses yet there was no demand for their supply.

The internet and eBay only had a minor impact in the aftermath, in that that became a method in which product was dumped and it became a buyer's market for rock bottom deals and everyone was undercutting others.

[abcd1234]

the home run chase was good for card collecting but once that was over....not as fun to collect.

[lindeman79]

No it actually destroyed the community aspect of collecting. Even in the early 90's the only way to find hard inserts and vintage was to go to shows or hobby shops.

Collectors started creating networks finding cards for each other, scanning card shops while traveling, going on the road to shows in other states etc.

It made finding those hard cards that much more meaningful. Finding a cool card for a friend was even better.

Nowadays you just have to spend 10 seconds on ebay to find that same card, it just doesn't have the same feel.

WOW, well put. Agree 100%

[lindeman79]

Where can I buy a 93 topps jeter rc or Carbrera topps traded rc for $2-3 dollars? Let me know

Supply and Demand,
The companies got greedy plain and simple. The funny thing is base cards used to drive the market but now people realize a star player (example Albert Pujols) will have at least a couple hundred sets his cards are featured in plus there are 10,000+ copies of this card in existence. Rookies cards are barely worth a couple bucks heck I could pick up a nice Jeter or Cabrera RC for $2-$3 because they made so many sets featuring Cabrera and Jeter RCs and the supply of cards far exceeds the demand.

"Investors" hurt the market as much as the help it, while they drive the price of singles up it ruined the fun for a lot of people when it comes to collecting, it's all about when can I cash out when can I make the most money hell, you'll see 10+ threads a week about whether to buy sell or hold a prospects card. When's the last time you saw somebody super excited to pull an average card just an ok $5-$10 auto or a cheap relic card? The excitement is gone, it's all a game now and not really a hobby. People have started to see cards as an investment rather then a hobby how often do you see somebody whine about not getting a good enough box and not getting there super duper 1/1 Aberu Superfractor? All the time.

Bringing me to my final point, the hobby bubbled popped because everyone who "invested" a boatload of cash into 90s junk wax believed that someday it will be worth something, killing off alot of the real collectors and driving up prices, I can't count how many times I've had people tell me about their junk wax collection and say "if I would've held onto them they'd be worth a fortune". When it stops become recreation, when it stops becoming a hobby that people do to have fun that's when a market dies and that's exactly why the market crashed in the 90s and why I feel the entire prospect market is going to crash. Eventually cooler heads will prevail and you'll realize you're never going to make your money back

That being said I'm still actively involved in the hobby and enjoy myself but I'm defiantly not to worried about making every penny I put into my collection back I just do it to have fun and have a piece of the games I love

My thoughts

[lindeman79]

That you sir for correcting this guy. He indeed is the one who needs to chill out.

I find it funny that the least coherent comment is yours. I think you missed the point of the entire thread. The bubble did burst on the card business at one point, the OP was asking what triggered it. If anyone needs to chill out it is you.

[lindeman79]

This is what it is all about. :flex:

Yesterday I did see a couple kids at the card store I go to. They were there with their dad. One said he was nine. He bought a box of 1989 Donruss baseball. It cost less than $10. His brother (early teens) bought a box of 2002 (I think) Upper Deck Rookies & Prospects and a couple McGwire 1987 Topps cards. I do remember seeing some kids at the June Tristar show in Houston buying stuff. One kid was trying to sell some higher dollar cards to a dealer. My 15 year old cousin collects cards. Maybe these are just anomalies, but I think there is still hope for the younger generations when it comes to card collecting.

At the store I bought 10 packs of 1986 Topps baseball for $10 & a box of 1988 Topps baseball for $7.50. I had more fun opening those packs than anything from today. I got a Reggie Jackson card out of one of the '86 packs. I was more excited about that than any memorabilia or autograph cards I've pulled the last two years.

HTownFan[/QUOTE]

[lindeman79]

Who really took wild card serious?

Wild Card going down was an eye opener for a lot of collectors to. I remember that leaving a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths, that seemed to really make people aware of just how bad it was.

[CharlieHustle]

Except there was no bursting of the bubble during the 1994 strike. Prices remained strong, but new card sales slowed as collectors had moved away from baseball into basketball chasing Shaq Rcs and Michael Jordan cards.Further proof that there was no bubble bursting, UD Griffey Rc at 100.00+ and 85 McGuire hitting 200+.

I'm not aware of any dealers who were selling strictly baseball after 1989-1990. 89 Score Fb, 89 Hoops Bkb, Upper Deck Fb, Bkb, Hky, ect. Long before the 94 strike, everyone had deversified into all the major sports.

I'm not even going to bother mincing words...this is the dumbest thing I've read in a while. You either weren't born yet or you were nowhere close to the card industry during the years of 1994-1996. Flat out, you're wrong. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. There was a collecting bubble in the 90's and it did indeed burst.
FYI, as it's already been pointed out, the 1985 Topps McGwire card never hit $200+ until AFTER 1998. Also, 89 Upper Deck Griffey Jr cards never hit $100 until 1997. His 1995 season was cut short by injury and he came back strong in 1996, then had a monster 1997, which is when his UD rc's soared in "value".
I like your fantasy land better, but reality is a helluva thing.

[HTownFan]

Interesting article:

Junk Wax and Observations on the Crazy World of Sports Cards: Junk Wax and Junk Cards (http://junkwaxandobservations.blogspot.com/search/label/Junk%20Wax%20and%20Junk%20Cards)

HTownFan

[mike barnes]

The Upper deck selling under the table happened in the phx area alot
ive talked to a few dealers who used to buy them everytime a ud bigwig came to scottsdale
same with yugiho rarities a few years back comic stores would buy rare stuff for a deal to sell as singles in the store

[HTownFan]

Some articles:

Requiem for the 00s: The Decline of Topps Baseball Cards - SBNation.com (http://www.sbnation.com/2013/2/2/3943618/topps-2013-baseball-cards-review)

The Rise and Fall of Baseball Cards: Part-1 – The Rise | Think Blue LA (http://www.thinkbluela.com/index.php/2012/12/15/the-rise-and-fall-of-baseball-cards-part-1-the-rise/)

The Rise and Fall of Baseball Cards: Part-2 – The Fall | Think Blue LA (http://www.thinkbluela.com/index.php/2012/12/17/the-rise-and-fall-of-baseball-cards-part-2-the-fall/)

The Baseball Card – Down but not Out | Think Blue LA (http://www.thinkbluela.com/index.php/2013/01/04/the-baseball-card-down-but-not-out/)

10 Tips to Win at Baseball Card Investing - DailyFinance (http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/07/18/10-tips-to-win-at-baseball-card-investing/)

HTownFan

[rats60]

I'm not even going to bother mincing words...this is the dumbest thing I've read in a while. You either weren't born yet or you were nowhere close to the card industry during the years of 1994-1996. Flat out, you're wrong. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. There was a collecting bubble in the 90's and it did indeed burst.
FYI, as it's already been pointed out, the 1985 Topps McGwire card never hit $200+ until AFTER 1998. Also, 89 Upper Deck Griffey Jr cards never hit $100 until 1997. His 1995 season was cut short by injury and he came back strong in 1996, then had a monster 1997, which is when his UD rc's soared in "value".
I like your fantasy land better, but reality is a helluva thing.

I was making a very good living selling cards during those years. I don't know what type of fantasy world you are living in, but there is absolutely no truth in your post. No collecting bubble that burst during those years. You clearly were no where near the hobby during those years or you would have known how hot Topps was in 1996 from the day series one was released.

1994 was a very good year for baseball until the strike. As soon as they started playing in 95, sales started picking up, by the beginning of 96, baseball was back. This Is Ignoring how strong basketball was during this time plus football sales. Sorry you are wrong and the only dumb post is yours.

[HTownFan]

Here is part of the "investment" column in the September, 1990 'Baseball Cards' magazine:

"The '87 Topps is a low-risk investment at $35, especially when you consider the number of superstars in that set. Here's a few of the first cards in that set: Mike Greenwall, Ruben Sierra, Rafael Palmeiro, Bobby Thgpen, Devon White, Cory Snyder, Randy Myers, B.J. Surhoff, and Mitch Williams. It also has the rookie cards of Will Clark, Bo Jackson, Kevin Mitchell, and Wally Joyner. It's a no-lose set that jumped $15 in the last year. You can bet the mobile home on these investments; I know I have. We'll keep a running tally for all of you scoring at home, with myself purchasing 100 of each individual card and 10 sets of the '87 Topps. I'll nervously be watching my investments, along with you."

Underneath the column it says: "Greg Ambrosius is the assistant editor of Baseball Cards. He's more of an investor than a collector."
------------------------

People like him are the reason why the card companies printed so many copies of cards. Hoarders & people trying to corner the market on players & sets.


HTownFan

[CharlieHustle]

Here is part of the "investment" column in the September, 1990 'Baseball Cards' magazine:

"The '87 Topps is a low-risk investment at $35, especially when you consider the number of superstars in that set. Here's a few of the first cards in that set: Mike Greenwall, Ruben Sierra, Rafael Palmeiro, Bobby Thgpen, Devon White, Cory Snyder, Randy Myers, B.J. Surhoff, and Mitch Williams. It also has the rookie cards of Will Clark, Bo Jackson, Kevin Mitchell, and Wally Joyner. It's a no-lose set that jumped $15 in the last year. You can bet the mobile home on these investments; I know I have. We'll keep a running tally for all of you scoring at home, with myself purchasing 100 of each individual card and 10 sets of the '87 Topps. I'll nervously be watching my investments, along with you."
...
People like him are the reason why the card companies printed so many copies of cards. Hoarders & people trying to corner the market on players & sets.


HTownFan

I remember going to a show in 1990 and a majority of the dealer tables were filled with these 100 card lots. Then I would flip through a Tuff Stuff and see these 100 card lots advertised from Fritsch. For years I thought that card companies would sell you 100 of any player in the set, to order.

[CharlieHustle]

I was making a very good living selling cards during those years. I don't know what type of fantasy world you are living in, but there is absolutely no truth in your post. No collecting bubble that burst during those years. You clearly were no where near the hobby during those years or you would have known how hot Topps was in 1996 from the day series one was released.

1994 was a very good year for baseball until the strike. As soon as they started playing in 95, sales started picking up, by the beginning of 96, baseball was back. This Is Ignoring how strong basketball was during this time plus football sales. Sorry you are wrong and the only dumb post is yours.

If baseball "was back" in 1996, then what was it in 1998? Backer? More backest? 1998 and the HR chase brought collecting out of the muck, not 1996 Topps Series 1. Baseball was a lonely sport in 1995 and 1996, to try to argue otherwise would be to argue against fact. Look I'm happy for you that you never felt the collecting downturn and were still able to do great business. But the rest of the collecting industry didn't. Card shows were dead, card shops went out of business by the dozens and baseball in general was dead in the water. The 1998 HR chase created the next boom in cards. There's no debating that.
But given your hazy recollection of Mark McGwire and the value of his RC, I'm guessing that you have this time frame mixed up as well.
To debate the cause of the internet bubble is one thing, but to try and argue that there was no bubble? That's madness.

[rats60]

If baseball "was back" in 1996, then what was it in 1998? Backer? More backest? 1998 and the HR chase brought collecting out of the muck, not 1996 Topps Series 1. Baseball was a lonely sport in 1995 and 1996, to try to argue otherwise would be to argue against fact. Look I'm happy for you that you never felt the collecting downturn and were still able to do great business. But the rest of the collecting industry didn't. Card shows were dead, card shops went out of business by the dozens and baseball in general was dead in the water. The 1998 HR chase created the next boom in cards. There's no debating that.
But given your hazy recollection of Mark McGwire and the value of his RC, I'm guessing that you have this time frame mixed up as well.
To debate the cause of the internet bubble is one thing, but to try and argue that there was no bubble? That's madness.

Who are you? This post is 100% false. Have you ever heard of Sportsnet? Nationally the market was still strong. Shows here in the Midwest were still strong. Maybe in your little town of nowhere USA the market died, but to pretend that it applied to the whole country is just ignorant.

Are you going to argue that Cal Ripen cards weren't on fire in 1995? I mean you foolishly claim that Griffey cards were dead, when any real Baseball fan knows that was further from the truth. I guess you forgot the playoff series against the Yankees where he hit 5 home runs and scored the winning run.

Anyone arguing that there was a bubble burst anytime before 1999-2001 is just wrong.

[HTownFan]

Interesting articles:

Off Base: The rise and fall of baseball cards - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/090812)

It's no longer in the cards -- collectors strike out when they try to cash in -- speculators who sought big score come up short - SFGate (http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/nevius/article/It-s-no-longer-in-the-cards-collectors-strike-2514256.php)

Card collapse - Tulsa World: Archives (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/card-collapse/article_3cf9156f-6a03-5c42-8f51-8e246c76e51a.html)

HTownFan

[k13]

Who are you? This post is 100% false. Have you ever heard of Sportsnet? Nationally the market was still strong. Shows here in the Midwest were still strong. Maybe in your little town of nowhere USA the market died, but to pretend that it applied to the whole country is just ignorant.

Are you going to argue that Cal Ripen cards weren't on fire in 1995? I mean you foolishly claim that Griffey cards were dead, when any real Baseball fan knows that was further from the truth. I guess you forgot the playoff series against the Yankees where he hit 5 home runs and scored the winning run.

Anyone arguing that there was a bubble burst anytime before 1999-2001 is just wrong.

Yeah it was dead...from 30 stores to 2...

No one cares about ripen that much...Most were out of the hobby by 1995 as I was...

[gpenko826]

If baseball "was back" in 1996, then what was it in 1998? Backer? More backest? 1998 and the HR chase brought collecting out of the muck, not 1996 Topps Series 1. Baseball was a lonely sport in 1995 and 1996, to try to argue otherwise would be to argue against fact. Look I'm happy for you that you never felt the collecting downturn and were still able to do great business. But the rest of the collecting industry didn't. Card shows were dead, card shops went out of business by the dozens and baseball in general was dead in the water. The 1998 HR chase created the next boom in cards. There's no debating that.
But given your hazy recollection of Mark McGwire and the value of his RC, I'm guessing that you have this time frame mixed up as well.
To debate the cause of the internet bubble is one thing, but to try and argue that there was no bubble? That's madness.

Baseball cards were indeed "back" in 1996. I don't think a lot of people remember the fervor surrounding the Mantle reprints in Topps series 1. Every local show I went to, every shop I visited - those cards were heavily sought after. It brought older collectors back that hadn't purchased a pack or a single in years, and it seemed like EVERYONE wanted to make that set.

It all died down again a few months after release, and they couldn't hit again with the Mays reprints in 1997, but to say the market was "dead" until the 1998 Home Run Race is not true...

[CharlieHustle]

Who are you? This post is 100% false. Have you ever heard of Sportsnet? Nationally the market was still strong. Shows here in the Midwest were still strong. Maybe in your little town of nowhere USA the market died, but to pretend that it applied to the whole country is just ignorant.

Are you going to argue that Cal Ripen cards weren't on fire in 1995? I mean you foolishly claim that Griffey cards were dead, when any real Baseball fan knows that was further from the truth. I guess you forgot the playoff series against the Yankees where he hit 5 home runs and scored the winning run.

Anyone arguing that there was a bubble burst anytime before 1999-2001 is just wrong.


I didn't say Griffey's market was dead. You seem to have real trouble interpreting what I'm writing. YOU said that Griffey's UD Rc was worth $100 during 1994-1996. I said that between the strike and his injury, his Rc wasn't worth $100 until late 1997, when he went on his HR tear. Get it straight.
Also, I'm not arguing that INDIVIDUAL rushes took place between 1994-1996. IE, Ripken cards, or 1994 SP holoview die cuts, or Michael Jordan baseball Rc's, or the "Regional" Diamond Collection cards that were inserted in 1994 Upper Deck East, West and Central boxes. BUT, don't interpret INDIVIDUAL success across a global scale as success for the whole industry.
What I'm saying, and I'm sure I'll say it again because you can't comprehend, is that the card industry and the supporting facilities around it (shops, shows,etc) were nowhere near as strong as they were in 1990-1993. No sane person could argue that. That is called a bubble. There were a TON of collectors, then there wasn't. Bubble burst.

[CharlieHustle]

Anyone arguing that there was a bubble burst anytime before 1999-2001 is just wrong.

Also, you forgot about grading. Grading created a BOOM from 1999-2001. No bubble was being burst in this time.

[CharlieHustle]

Baseball cards were indeed "back" in 1996. I don't think a lot of people remember the fervor surrounding the Mantle reprints in Topps series 1. Every local show I went to, every shop I visited - those cards were heavily sought after. It brought older collectors back that hadn't purchased a pack or a single in years, and it seemed like EVERYONE wanted to make that set.

It all died down again a few months after release, and they couldn't hit again with the Mays reprints in 1997, but to say the market was "dead" until the 1998 Home Run Race is not true...

Go look up what a bubble is and what it means for that bubble to burst.
It's like saying "I made a killing on real estate property from 2008-2010, so obviously there was no recession." We're looking at a market as a whole, not individual bright spots.

[rats60]

I didn't say Griffey's market was dead. You seem to have real trouble interpreting what I'm writing. YOU said that Griffey's UD Rc was worth $100 during 1994-1996. I said that between the strike and his injury, his Rc wasn't worth $100 until late 1997, when he went on his HR tear. Get it straight.
Also, I'm not arguing that INDIVIDUAL rushes took place between 1994-1996. IE, Ripken cards, or 1994 SP holoview die cuts, or Michael Jordan baseball Rc's, or the "Regional" Diamond Collection cards that were inserted in 1994 Upper Deck East, West and Central boxes. BUT, don't interpret INDIVIDUAL success across a global scale as success for the whole industry.
What I'm saying, and I'm sure I'll say it again because you can't comprehend, is that the card industry and the supporting facilities around it (shops, shows,etc) were nowhere near as strong as they were in 1990-1993. No sane person could argue that. That is called a bubble. There were a TON of collectors, then there wasn't. Bubble burst.

I never said that Griffey's RC was 100 during that period. I said that it went over 100 AFTER you claim the bubble burst. It was actually 75 during the 94-95 strike and later went to 125.00-150.00. Now it's 20.00. A bubble bursting means a large drop in prices. That didn't happen until after 1999.

The peak of the hobby was 1991. Sales have been declining since. However, there was no bubble burst. If you want to argue a slow bleed that started in 1992, ok. You posted this:

If anyone here remembers, 1995-1997 was freezing, ice cold in the collecting world. Shows died out, product was being released at an unmanageable pace and wax prices were through the roof (not in a good way).

This is 100% false. Maybe in your local area, wherever that is, but not in the Midwest. Definitely not nationally where most products still did well. Shows were still strong. Lines of people waiting to get in when the doors opened. Buying frenzy the first hour or two. The internet killed shows where dealers could just list their cards and sell worldwide instead of only to those who walked through the show.

Go back to the first page. Most people had the correct answer, the internet caused the bubble to burst. You are the lone wolf arguing otherwise. I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Maybe in your local world you believe that to be true, but that doesn't make it so.

[CharlieHustle]

I never said that Griffey's RC was 100 during that period. I said that it went over 100 AFTER you claim the bubble burst. It was actually 75 during the 94-95 strike and later went to 125.00-150.00. Now it's 20.00. A bubble bursting means a large drop in prices. That didn't happen until after 1999.

The peak of the hobby was 1991. Sales have been declining since. However, there was no bubble burst. If you want to argue a slow bleed that started in 1992, ok.

So, if 1991 was the peak...then the decline started for no good reason?
Just because?

Good logic.

8,000 shops in 1990
5,500 shops in 1995

31% decrease in 5 years. Sounds like solid business to me.
Nope, no bubble bursting going on here.

[rats60]

So, if 1991 was the peak...then the decline started for no good reason?
Just because?

Good logic.

8,000 shops in 1990
5,500 shops in 1995

31% decrease in 5 years. Sounds like solid business to me.
Nope, no bubble bursting going on here.

Is there an argument in there? Because I think you proved my point. If 8000 tof 5500 is a bubble, what is 5500 to 500? You still haven't explained how a bubble burst doesn't cause prices to drop across the board. Why was the market still strong nationally and in many local regions. Why did mass produced cards retain their value?

The decrease in shops should be expected. When the hobby was growing, lots of get rich quick guys opened. They had no business sense. They didn't have the capital needed to run a business. They saw easy money and as soon as things were no longer easy, they were gone.

[Bhenry4]

It was the inception of internet porn, nothing more and nothing less.

[lindeman79]

It took some time for grading to really catch on. Not only myself and the couple shops within an hour Northern Michigan, but at that time (2000) I flew to Seattle for a concert and visited about 6 shops and they all said they had been sitting on their graded cards and only of late are they slowly starting to sell and move. PERIOD

Also, you forgot about grading. Grading created a BOOM from 1999-2001. No bubble was being burst in this time.

[andyzk3]

I didn't say Griffey's market was dead. You seem to have real trouble interpreting what I'm writing. YOU said that Griffey's UD Rc was worth $100 during 1994-1996. I said that between the strike and his injury, his Rc wasn't worth $100 until late 1997, when he went on his HR tear. Get it straight.
Also, I'm not arguing that INDIVIDUAL rushes took place between 1994-1996. IE, Ripken cards, or 1994 SP holoview die cuts, or Michael Jordan baseball Rc's, or the "Regional" Diamond Collection cards that were inserted in 1994 Upper Deck East, West and Central boxes. BUT, don't interpret INDIVIDUAL success across a global scale as success for the whole industry.
What I'm saying, and I'm sure I'll say it again because you can't comprehend, is that the card industry and the supporting facilities around it (shops, shows,etc) were nowhere near as strong as they were in 1990-1993. No sane person could argue that. That is called a bubble. There were a TON of collectors, then there wasn't. Bubble burst.


I don't have a horse in this race but thank you for being one of three people on a baseball forum who spelled Ripken correctly!!

[andyzk3]

It was the inception of internet porn, nothing more and nothing less.

Hey it probably led to the demise of many other things too!! :)!

[HTownFan]

Bursting isn't the right word. When a bubble bursts, it's no longer exist. The card hobby is still here. We should say that the bubble shrunk. Are there fewer card shops? Yes. Are there fewer dealers? Yes. Are there fewer investors/speculators? Yes. Are there fewer shows? Yes. Are there fewer card companies? Yes. Are there fewer collectors? Yes.

HTownFan

[lindeman79]

BUMP :flex:

It took some time for grading to really catch on. Not only myself and the couple shops within an hour Northern Michigan, but at that time (2000) I flew to Seattle for a concert and visited about 6 shops and they all said they had been sitting on their graded cards and only of late are they slowly starting to sell and move. PERIOD

[CharlieHustle]

Is there an argument in there? Because I think you proved my point. If 8000 tof 5500 is a bubble, what is 5500 to 500? You still haven't explained how a bubble burst doesn't cause prices to drop across the board. Why was the market still strong nationally and in many local regions. Why did mass produced cards retain their value?

The decrease in shops should be expected. When the hobby was growing, lots of get rich quick guys opened. They had no business sense. They didn't have the capital needed to run a business. They saw easy money and as soon as things were no longer easy, they were gone.

Going from 8,000 to 5,500 shops isn't the bubble. Going from X to 8,000 is the bubble, ie the bubble is blowing up and getting bigger. The market couldn't support itself. Bubble goes pop. The market never comes close to that level of sales EVER again. That's not a bubble? The mass exodus of speculators isn't the first sign of a bubble popping?

The market steadily increased from 1978(?)-1985
Then sharply increased from 1986-1991.
1991 was the absolute peak year for sales, with 1.2 Billion
1992-1994 saw a steady decrease.
Then 1994-1996 saw a sharp decrease.

Market went up. Bubble popped. Market went down. There is NO other time period in the sports card industry (1986-1996) where the market fluctuated this wildly. Forbes magazine estimates sports card sales at 1.2 billion in 1991 and about 400 million in 2000. Then about 200 million for year end, 2008. LINK (http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/28/baseball-cards-economy-inflation-opinions-columnists-john-tamny.html)

[CharlieHustle]

It took some time for grading to really catch on. Not only myself and the couple shops within an hour Northern Michigan, but at that time (2000) I flew to Seattle for a concert and visited about 6 shops and they all said they had been sitting on their graded cards and only of late are they slowly starting to sell and move. PERIOD

Grading was very active during this time.
The first Derek Jeter 1993 SP BGS 9.5 card sold for $33,000 during early 2001, which really kicked the frenzy into overdrive because it was on the cover of Beckett the next month.

[CharlieHustle]

Bursting isn't the right word. When a bubble bursts, it's no longer exist. The card hobby is still here. We should say that the bubble shrunk. Are there fewer card shops? Yes. Are there fewer dealers? Yes. Are there fewer investors/speculators? Yes. Are there fewer shows? Yes. Are there fewer card companies? Yes. Are there fewer collectors? Yes.

HTownFan

Not true. There are still dot com businesses and venture capital. There is still a tech stock market. There is still a housing market.
You dont have to get to zero to define a bubble being popped.

[rats60]

The market steadily increased from 1978(?)-1985
Then sharply increased from 1986-1991.
1991 was the absolute peak year for sales, with 1.2 Billion
1992-1994 saw a steady decrease.
Then 1994-1996 saw a sharp decrease.

]

This is not true. Your link doesn't back up your claim that there was a sharp decrease 94 to 96. There has been a steady decrease. By your arguement, the bubble burst in 1992. Good luck trying to convince anyone of that.

You still haven't answered how a bubble could burst, but prices not drop, then later increase only to crash later. Bubble burst =card prices dropping.

[HTownFan]

Interesting read:

Is the Sports Card Industry Dying? (http://www.sportscardradio.com/news/1661-is-the-sports-card-industry-dying)

HTownFan

[benshobbies]

Interesting. I'm seeing a resurgence of Early 80s cards.

Next year on Opening Day 1985 Topps Will be 30 years old. Been seeing in up-tick in key rookies & star hall of fame. Been testing the waters more & more and some stuff I coudln't give away for years has been selling. Strawberry, Henderson, Rose, Ryan....etc.

With a number of those guys up for hall of fame voting this year it'll be interesting to see what the later 80s cards will do.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

Going from 8,000 to 5,500 shops isn't the bubble. Going from X to 8,000 is the bubble, ie the bubble is blowing up and getting bigger. The market couldn't support itself. Bubble goes pop. The market never comes close to that level of sales EVER again. That's not a bubble? The mass exodus of speculators isn't the first sign of a bubble popping?

The market steadily increased from 1978(?)-1985
Then sharply increased from 1986-1991.
1991 was the absolute peak year for sales, with 1.2 Billion
1992-1994 saw a steady decrease.
Then 1994-1996 saw a sharp decrease.

Market went up. Bubble popped. Market went down. There is NO other time period in the sports card industry (1986-1996) where the market fluctuated this wildly. Forbes magazine estimates sports card sales at 1.2 billion in 1991 and about 400 million in 2000. Then about 200 million for year end, 2008. LINK (http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/28/baseball-cards-economy-inflation-opinions-columnists-john-tamny.html)

This is spot on. I used to sell cards at a flea market in Ohio to get spending money for college. I remember in 1991 EVERYBODY asking me for Stadium Club. I mean farmers, elderly folks, etc. I was selling series one for 110-120 a set(sometimes more). You know it's a bubble when everyone is buying, and in the end, what they were buying is now practically worthless. Anyone who dealt with cards in that era knows this. You could sell anything then and make money and sell out. Proset, UD, Broders, etc. Whoever says that there wasn't a bubble, was either too young to remember, or they have their head up their ass.

[HTownFan]

A good podcast about the 90s bubble:

The History Podcast: The History Podcast #12 - The 90s Sports Card Bubble (http://thehistorypodcast.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-history-podcast-12-90s-sports-card.html)

HTownFan

[Shogun2049]

Could the current decline have anything to do with a general decline in baseball fans? I've heard for the past couple years that the MLB is trying to do something to bring people back to watching baseball. Maybe that's one of the factors hurting the industry.

Personally, I think that the card industry is hurting more from the overproduction (20+ different sets just in football) and the cost per pack being too high for the younger generation to be able to casually enter the hobby.

[benshobbies]

Could the current decline have anything to do with a general decline in baseball fans? I've heard for the past couple years that the MLB is trying to do something to bring people back to watching baseball. Maybe that's one of the factors hurting the industry.

Personally, I think that the card industry is hurting more from the overproduction (20+ different sets just in football) and the cost per pack being too high for the younger generation to be able to casually enter the hobby.

I think its a financial drain. Nobody has enough extra cash to spend on product. They have x amount of dollars they can spend on cards/week & that is it.

My "Free Money" has been very limited lately. Have so many other things I have to think about right now. I know others feel the pinch too.

[CharlieHustle]

This is not true. Your link doesn't back up your claim that there was a sharp decrease 94 to 96. There has been a steady decrease. By your arguement, the bubble burst in 1992. Good luck trying to convince anyone of that.

You still haven't answered how a bubble could burst, but prices not drop, then later increase only to crash later. Bubble burst =card prices dropping.

Prices didn't drop?
How many 1991 OPC Premier boxes would you like to buy from me for $100+ per box? How many 1987 Topps sets can I sell you for $30? How many boxes of 1990 Leaf Series 2 would you like to buy for $300+? Let me know, I'm up to my armpits in all of them.

[CharlieHustle]

Could the current decline have anything to do with a general decline in baseball fans? I've heard for the past couple years that the MLB is trying to do something to bring people back to watching baseball. Maybe that's one of the factors hurting the industry.

Personally, I think that the card industry is hurting more from the overproduction (20+ different sets just in football) and the cost per pack being too high for the younger generation to be able to casually enter the hobby.

IMO, baseball fandom is at it's all-time high, but that doesn't translate to card collecting. Card collecting is still tangled up with "value" and "worth" and keeps people at a distance when they feel like they didn't get either of those 2 things from their pack/box/case. No matter how much collectors say "It's just a hobby for me", you'll still hear them say "I didn't get anything" when they open a bad pack/box/case. Value and worth are too engrained in modern collector's brains. With a lack of perceived value, there will always be a hesitation to spend more money.

I agree that the card manufacturers have to do a better job of getting kids involved. However, one of the most patronizing suggestions to accomplish this, IMO, is when people say to make a "basic, generic, cheap" set of cards that kids can buy. As if kids are going to have a desire to collect "boring" cards. When I was a kid, cards were everywhere. EVERYWHERE. They were in boxes of cereal, in boxes of Jimmy Dean breakfasts, on Hostess boxes, in Pepsi boxes, in Coke boxes, in Mother's Cookies, in frozen pizza boxes, in Cracker Jack's, Denny's, at gas stations when you buy x gallons of gas, in hot dog packs, everywhere. What about now? You get a pack of Topps for $2 at Walmart. What about the free taste? Bring back the free taste and you have a good shot at bringing back the kids. Just my opinion though.

[rats60]

Prices didn't drop?
How many 1991 OPC Premier boxes would you like to buy from me for $100+ per box? How many 1987 Topps sets can I sell you for $30? How many boxes of 1990 Leaf Series 2 would you like to buy for $300+? Let me know, I'm up to my armpits in all of them.

Those boxes didn't crash in 94-96. In particular 90 Leaf 2 was sky high because of Frank Thomas. Keep trying because you support my claim and that of most on here. Like singles, much of that wax crashed after the grading craze and people saw how easy it was to buy online.

This is really simple if you took and passed a high school economics class. When people were buying at shows and shops, they saw a limited supply. That created demand. Prices rose. When people saw how easy it was to find things on the Internet, over produced items crashed.

[HTownFan]

IMO, baseball fandom is at it's all-time high, but that doesn't translate to card collecting. Card collecting is still tangled up with "value" and "worth" and keeps people at a distance when they feel like they didn't get either of those 2 things from their pack/box/case. No matter how much collectors say "It's just a hobby for me", you'll still hear them say "I didn't get anything" when they open a bad pack/box/case. Value and worth are too engrained in modern collector's brains. With a lack of perceived value, there will always be a hesitation to spend more money.

I think it's very natural for any collector to wonder if they got their money's worth after spending $5+ on a pack or $80+ on a box.

HTownFan

[k13]

IMO, baseball fandom is at it's all-time. imo.

Not even close... quite the opposite.

[CharlieHustle]

Not even close... quite the opposite.

MLB heads for record merchandise sales - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/mlb-heads-for-record-merchandise-sales-2012-04-04)

I'd love to hear why you think that.

[mfw13]

Personally, I think that the card industry is hurting more from the overproduction (20+ different sets just in football) and the cost per pack being too high for the younger generation to be able to casually enter the hobby.

Agree.

Boxes are generally overpriced, there is too much focus on prospecting, and too many mediocre looking virtually identical products.

The root of the problem is the huge contracts which the players unions extracted from the manufacturers....having paid so much money for their licenses, the manufacturers have no choice but to release tons of products.

But they don't have to release so many identical products....not every product has to have relics/autos/parallels, etc.

I don't know how big the market would be, but there is some sort of market for a well-designed, inexpensive product, featuring nothing but good-looking base cards/SP's, for example.....

[HTownFan]

Interesting article:

Cards No Gold Mine for 80s, 90s Buyers | Sports Collectors Daily | Sports collecting news (http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/cards-no-gold-mine-for-80s-90s-buyers/)

HTownFan

[HTownFan]

Interesting articles:

30 of the Best Baseball Cards from the 80s and Early 90s (http://www.cardboardconnection.com/best-baseball-cards-80s-90s)

10 Things to do with your Old Junk Sports Cards - The Card Hobbyist (http://cardhobbyist.com/2013/07/14/10-things-to-do-with-your-old-baseball-cards/)

Card Collector Digest » A Tale of Junk Wax Heartbreak (http://www.cardcollectordigest.com/2009/10/17/a-tale-of-junk-wax-heartbreak/)

Junk Wax Defined & Unreal Expectations | supportingtheminnow (http://supportingtheminnow.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/junk-wax-defined/)

Junk Wax Is About to Get Just a Little Rarer | Sports Card Forum Articles (http://www.sportscardforum.com/articles/2011/04/junk-wax-is-about-to-get-just-a-little-rarer/)

HTownFan

[altaeria]

Eh, the old timers in the hobby, the ones collecting from the 70's into the 80's got burned when they literally couldn't collect one of every card. Up until around 1993 that was possible but 1993 onwards it was an impossibility.

I think being a OCD collector for years and then realizing you just can't have every Cub's or Braves card printed would be pretty awful and make you want to give up.

The companies also just released bizarre and stupid sets during this time period as well. The Fractal Matrix set is still confusing people to this day.


Yup, I get this.

I feel like modern collecting has essentially become an arbitrary mish-mash of whatever random cards you can luckily stumble upon. It feels like there’s no tangible end-game since it is literally impossible to be a true completist.

You’d think that the industry would’ve wanted to cater to the old compulsive collectors instead of alienating them. But I guess there wasn’t enough money in that.

[gabballplayer14]

It's great that a 4 year old thread about inflation, cards bottoming out, and clectors leaving the hobby has been brought back from the dead.

We have some of the highest prices on prospects, Vintage and Modern stars right now, and the rookie classes of the last two years have brought it tons of new clectors as well.

There will always be a perceived "bubble" from people outside the industry, since they are (generally) not nearly involved in the hobby as much as the members on this board.

It's easy to try and draw comparisons between the 90's and now, but the (relative) stability in the hobby the last twenty years can be attributed to places like here, eBay, COMC, etc.

[ThoseBackPages]

Correct, bubble burst long before internet.

PROSPECT RUSH!!!!!!!

[byronscott4ever]

For me, the strike killed it.

[smapdi]

The strike, plus the 12-24 month attention span most people have for most things caused the early 90s bubble to burst. But it didn't burst like chewing gum. It was a bubble in a pot of water that keeps getting hotter, and the next bubble came up bigger and bubblier than ever.

I think there are fewer actual collectors now as a percentage of the population than at any point since the 70s, but the population grows. For sure the number of dollars being spent is higher than ever.

[mfw13]

Also keep in mind that the internet "arrived" in the mid-90's....Mosiac was released in 1994 and Netscape went public in 1997. So the mid-90's was also the time period when people's attention started to be diverted from the physical to the digital.

At the same time, you had everyone jumping in to try to duplicate the success of Upper Deck, resulting in supply growing far in excess of demand.

[mainerunr]

Well, contrary to what some of you think, the internet did exist before the web and browsers. Plenty of cards changed hands through usenet newsgroups groups in the early 1990's (Usenet came into existence in the early 1980's).

[carlo16]

Don't remember reading this thread before. Charlie Hustle was and still is correct. Card show in Ny NJ and CT were chaos 88-90. Basically you had to buy from whatever table you were able to stand in front of. By 91-92 there was a very noticeable difference in attendance as well as prices and buyer behavior.

[COMCMax]

The internet was MIA or maybe it was the internets fought..

[Orange October]

PROSPECT RUSH!!!!!!!

Blast from the past

[seth2720]

That's a good point. Beckett's bullcrap pricing is partly culpable. Wouldn't have been as much demand to cause a bubble if we all knew that $5 card was really worth a quarter. The fact that cards sell at 1/10 BV just shows it is complete BS.

Haha I remember this. We were trading actual $5-$10 cards at $75-$100 back in the day lol....only to find out that three quarters of our collection was a bunch of cards that were barely worth postage.

[CardBoard4Life]

For me as a 12 year old kid in 92, it went like this. Why is every card an insert card now? Oh lets see how Beckett handles all these inserts....oh look they can't. Kevin Maas was a bust, Steve Decker was a bust, Van Poppel was a bust. And my three Griffey UD RCs all came back 8.5s 20 years later. I opened so many Upper Deck packs hoping for a /2500 Nolan Auto. Of course looking back I would need to open a case for every pack I opened. The good news, the hobby is back, and it seems in control.... for now.