Veteran's Committee says No Thanks

[Skipscards]

All 10 Golden Era candidates fall short of Hall of Fame induction - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/11999830/all-10-golden-era-candidates-fall-short-hall-fame-induction)

Oliva and Allen came within one vote. They'll get in when they're dead.

[awz50]

I kinda thought Luis would get in...

[bluejet66]

"Ken Boyer, Gil Hodges, Billy Pierce and Luis Tiant each received three or fewer votes, as did the late Cincinnati Reds general manager Bob Howsam."

What a joke....

[ToppsCollector1]

At least let Hodges in!!

Who's on this committee anyway?

[ToppsCollector1]

Double post..........

[signal_fifty]

You know who's on it? Actual Hall of Famers who aren't going to cheapen the brand by letting guys like Minnie Minoso in...nice job by the veterans committee. There are 0
Hall of Famers on that list.

[Twinsfan33]

Tony O should be in..1 vote shy, he'll get it...maybe when he's dead..but he'll get it

[SportsAutoFreak]

It's time for a rant, much of which I posted on Twitter.

I am frankly very irate. Not since 2001 has a living player been elected by the VC. This isn't a committee, it's a graveyard. You want to be a player elected to Cooperstown? Die. That's what you need to do. That's the harsh truth. There's absolutely no reason why Ron Santo shouldn't have been elected before hiss passing. Then he's inducted less than 24 months after his death. What did he do to become a Hall of Famer? He passed away. That's what. With this age of advanced metrics, sabermetricians would point out that Santo was one of the best. I'd argue Ken Boyer was a Hall of Famer and may he RIP. I'm not sure why he isn't in yet.

What else happened not too long ago? Joe Gordon got posthumously elected. He should've been in years ago, but it took decades until after his passing. The 19th Century Committee had no problem electing Deacon White, Hank O'Day and Jacob Ruppert and quite honestly, Bill Dahlen should have been elected, too.

You could argue Bill Mazeroski was a mistake. You could point out the politics of when Frankie Frisch ran the VC when many of his former teammates got in and people would say they didn't deserve it. That's how someone like a George Kelly got in. Mistakes happen. I get it, but this does not help either. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during that meeting in San Diego yesterday.

I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not. I know I'm not. I know in what, three years from now, is it? This same committee will meet again and elect no Golden Era players unless someone passes. If Dick Allen, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso or Tony Oliva had passed on before this, some, if not all of them, would have been elected.

But the VC can elect managers no problem. I have no denying the likes of Joe Torre, Tony La Russa and Bobby Cox all deserved it. I'm happy Dick Williams got his day in the sun before his passing. With umpires, Doug Harvey rightfully got elected and I hope Bruce Froemming gets in soon, too. With executives, thankfully Pat Gillick got in and I hope soon Buzzie Bavasi will got his rightful Hall call. When Bochy becomes eligible for the VC for manager's, he'll get elected and it'll be a well deserved election.
I remember I was heartbroken when Craig Biggio fell two votes short. I hope he gets his justice this coming year, but with a crowded ballot and the games the BBWAA plays, I won't be surprised if he falls short again. It seems like the VC is no better. Buck O'Neill also fell one vote short many years ago, too. The same goes for the late great Marvin Miller.

The Pro Football Hall of Fame committee gets a lot of crap, but they're different. It's not that their committee doesn't think these players arne't Hall of Famers. There's a logjam and only a handful of modern era candidates can get elected. That's the problem. If you're a senior nominee for the Pro Football HOF, chances of you getting elected are very good. I trust very much the committee will do the right thing in Arizona and give Mick Tingelhoff his bust in Canton since he deserves it. I'm not saying Canton doesn't make mistakes, but their process and thinking isn't as warped.

This whole thing ruined my day, but I was expecting this to happen. The VC needs reform.

[SportsAutoFreak]

You know who's on it? Actual Hall of Famers who aren't going to cheapen the brand by letting guys like Minnie Minoso in...nice job by the veterans committee. There are 0
Hall of Famers on that list.

Would you please be kind enough to justify your comments?

[death2redemptions]

At least let Hodges in!!

Who's on this committee anyway?

A 16 member committee comprised of a bunch of Hall Of Fame players & executives for each of the three different eras (Pre-Integration, Golden, Expansion). The Hall Of Fame voters are selected by the Hall of Fame’s board of directors and each era rotates voting years. I'm not sure of the exact names of the voters this year.

[SportsAutoFreak]

A 16 member committee comprised of a bunch of Hall Of Fame players & executives for each of the three different eras (Pre-Integration, Golden, Expansion). The Hall Of Fame voters are selected by the Hall of Fame’s board of directors and each era rotates voting years. I'm not sure of the exact names of the voters this year.

Players like Ferguson Jenkins, Rod Carew and Jim Bunning were on. I interviewed Bunning back in April and actually asked if Dick Allen should be inducted. Bunning said he played like a Hall of Famer when they were teammates, but he also said it's the final numbers that gets someone in. It's all perspective.

[signal_fifty]

Would you please be kind enough to justify your comments?

I actually don't feel I need to justify my comments. It's my opinion that none of those players are Hall of Fame caliber. And the veterans committee agreed. Anyone that feels one of those left out were worthy, it would be up to them to justify it. I'd be curious to know who you feel was slighted.

[SportsAutoFreak]

I actually don't feel I need to justify my comments. It's my opinion that none of those players are Hall of Fame caliber. And the veterans committee agreed. Anyone that feels one of those left out were worthy, it would be up to them to justify it. I'd be curious to know who you feel was slighted.

Technically, a majority did, seeing a how three of them got at least 10 votes from a 16 man panel. Problem is, 75% needed. I think Allen, Kaat, Minoso and Pierce got slighted. Boyer and Oliva also arguably got shafted too.

[jmscoggin]

You know who's on it? Actual Hall of Famers who aren't going to cheapen the brand by letting guys like Minnie Minoso in...nice job by the veterans committee. There are 0
Hall of Famers on that list.

Agreed, I just looked at the stats of all of these guys just to back up my initial gut reaction. Hall of Very good, yep. Hall of Fame, nope.

[SportsAutoFreak]

Agreed, I just looked at the stats of all of these guys just to back up my initial gut reaction. Hall of Very good, yep. Hall of Fame, nope.

You must have a very small HOF. What's your criteria?

[Cardshack14]

Dick Allen Hall of Fame (http://dickallenhof.blogspot.com/?m=1)
Someone actually made a site because they wanted allen in.

[SportsAutoFreak]

I'd say Allen should have gotten elected. If I had four to vote for since that was the maximum, I'd have selected Allen, Kaat, Minoso and Boyer. Pierce, Howsam, Oliva would've been my holdover candidates. Wills, Tiant and Hodges I'd have passed on entirely.

[jmscoggin]

You must have a very small HOF. What's your criteria?

I agree, I would clean house if given the opportunity. The HOF should be the best of the best. I wouldn't even mind at least one MVP or CY Young at the bare minimum for entry. That may be pushing it but I'm definitely a believer in a small hall. I love watching the Garret Andersons, Nomars, Torii Hunters etc but they aren't Hall of Famers.

I don't have criteria per se but I would think hitting .285 + with 400+ hr's and 2,000 + hits should be a floor unless they were a wizard with a glove to balance out a lack of offense. I would think a pitcher should have 225 + wins with a sub 3.25 era and preferably sub 3.00. Different eras are subject to the scale going up or down obviously.

I will also say that all of these players were before my time so I'm going solely on numbers. That and the fact that if they made it this long without being voted in there is obviously a good reason for that. You should know a HOF'er when you see one. These guys have been eligible for many, many years and enough people still don't think they look like enshrinees. That should say something.

[SportsAutoFreak]

I agree, I would clean house if given the opportunity. The HOF should be the best of the best. I wouldn't even mind at least one MVP or CY Young at the bare minimum for entry. That may be pushing it but I'm definitely a believer in a small hall. I love watching the Garret Andersons, Nomars, Torii Hunters etc but they aren't Hall of Famers.

I don't have criteria per se but I would think hitting .285 + with 400+ hr's and 2,000 + hits should be a floor unless they were a wizard with a glove to balance out a lack of offense. I would think a pitcher should have 225 + wins with a sub 3.25 era and preferably sub 3.00. Different eras are subject to the scale going up or down obviously.

I will also say that all of these players were before my time so I'm going solely on numbers. That and the fact that if they made it this long without being voted in there is obviously a good reason for that. You should know a HOF'er when you see one. These guys have been eligible for many, many years and enough people still don't think they look like enshrinees. That should say something.

Whilst some players are in who should be out, I have different ways to look at them:


#1 Magic milestones without PED use gets you a vote from me. This can be the greatest of the great or the compilers. This can be Willie Mays or Jim Thome.

#2 Being consistently very good year after year with good longevity. This helps someone like an Adrian Beltre with a good SABR argument.

#3 Being unbelievably dominant with an amazing peak, like, say, Kershaw. Already at 26, he's in.

#4 Position adjustment - Mauer has an argument as a catcher, but if he played first base his whole career, it'd be tougher.

I don't think a Hall of Famer should be instantly recognized because some quietly have great careers.

Requiring one Cy Young would exclude Nolan Ryan. Requiring one MVP would exclude Eddie Murray.

Injustices happen. The game has evolved. Using advanced metrics has helped players get in or get close.

To me, there's more than one way into Cooperstown.

[CM Sports Memorabilia]

Many years ago Bill James wrote an article calling the HOF- "The Hall of very good"

He also advocated for HOF'ers to have an "A" "B" "C" and "D" listing of the HOFers.

I personally agree about the HOF- 'Hall of very good" view. Way too many good but not great players in the HOF which I believe should be for only the best of the best!!!

[SportsAutoFreak]

Many years ago Bill James wrote an article calling the HOF- "The Hall of very good"

He also advocated for HOF'ers to have an "A" "B" "C" and "D" listing of the HOFers.

I personally agree about the HOF- 'Hall of very good" view. Way too many good but not great players in the HOF which I believe should be for only the best of the best!!!

I think we all think that, but perspectives are all different.

[duwal]

You must have a very small HOF. What's your criteria?


As everyone here should have a stricter small HOF and not let just any good or all-star caliber player in. Should be for the elite and important in the history of baseball, there absolutely can be players that were all-stars for half their career and put up nice career numbers yet still reasonably be left out of the hall of fame. Gil Hodges was an all-star 8 of his 12 full seasons and put up 370 homers and a .273 lifetime average.

He was also a guy that never was voted higher than 7th for MVP in any of his years, just tough for a guy like that when he played in an era where players like Willie Mays, Duke Snider, Stan Musial, Ernie Banks and other were putting up far better seasons. Hodges put up great numbers when he played but he was never THE guy to fear at the plate, not even on his own team. Again its just my opinion, neither opinion is fact. Just what we believe

[CxG Voodoo Doll]

Politics.

Sad, but true. I've never seen sooooo many people gripe and complain about our current President; yet somehow he's there...2 terms!!!!

It all comes down to politics.

[nmculbreth]

I'd venture if Dick Allen had been a nicer guy he'd have been in the HOF a long time ago... he's a lifetime .292/.378/.534/.912 hitter with an OPS+ of 156, who won a ROY and an MVP.

[Skipscards]

Politics.

Sad, but true. I've never seen sooooo many people gripe and complain about our current President; yet somehow he's there...2 terms!!!!

It all comes down to politics.

Ans $. HOFers don't want to share the pie.

[mfw13]

As another "small Hall" guy, I'd have to agree with the Veteran's Committee. While a lot of the players on this year's ballot were very good players, none of them were GREAT, and for me, the Hall of Fame should be reserved for the all-time greats.

Let's not forget that it's not just the Veteran's Committee that turned them down, they also each had 15 years on the regular ballot.....

[BluesBroSJ]

I am more than ok with a "small hall" but lost any and all respect when politics left Buck O'Neil out of the hall of fame.

[Skipscards]

I used to be a small hall guy and then I became a big Hall guy. Or more correctly I became ambivilent to the size of the Hall. Would it be great to hit the reset button and create a true Hall that is more selective? Sure. But the Hall is a living, breathing organism that has evolved over time. At this point, I've become more a student of the Hall and just tried to determine who will go in and who will not.

The players considered by the Committee are mostly borderline cases but many are better than several Hall Famers and would not diminish the quality of the Hall. Tony Oliva was the best candidate with Dick Allen probably 2nd. There are other reasons Gil probably should be in the Hall, but I'll get into that later when I have more time. I have no issue with today's results, per se; only that they have delayed the inevitble. If they are going in anyway, why wait until their dead?

[ilovethelakings]

I'm still trying to understand how 280+ wins and 16 Gold Gloves aren't HOF worthy numbers. The Vets committee is a complete joke.

[mfw13]

I'm still trying to understand how 280+ wins and 16 Gold Gloves aren't HOF worthy numbers. The Vets committee is a complete joke.

Because those numbers are a product of Kaat's longevity, not his greatness. In actuality, he was a barely above average pitcher (108 ERA+) who only got Cy Young votes in 1 out of his 25 years and finished with a 1.26 career WHIP.

He's the definition of a journeyman pitcher who hung around a long time, like Jamie Moyer.

Kaat: 283 wins, 108 ERA+
Moyer: 269 wins, 103 ERA+

[duwal]

I'm still trying to understand how 280+ wins and 16 Gold Gloves aren't HOF worthy numbers. The Vets committee is a complete joke.


his wins were more cumulative than dominant. There was just one time in his 25 seasons that he was in the top 5 for the Cy Young, 1975 he finished 4th. He finished in the top 10 in the league in ERA just 3 times. All-star 3 times

[wwejhardyrox]

You know who's on it? Actual Hall of Famers who aren't going to cheapen the brand by letting guys like Minnie Minoso in...nice job by the veterans committee. There are 0
Hall of Famers on that list.

Dick Allen is well deserving and is better than some already in the hall. 156 OPS+, I won't even go any further.

[SportsAutoFreak]

Because those numbers are a product of Kaat's longevity, not his greatness. In actuality, he was a barely above average pitcher (108 ERA+) who only got Cy Young votes in 1 out of his 25 years and finished with a 1.26 career WHIP.

He's the definition of a journeyman pitcher who hung around a long time, like Jamie Moyer.

Kaat: 283 wins, 108 ERA+
Moyer: 269 wins, 103 ERA+

Except he wouldn't be the first pitcher election on longevity. Some think even with 300 wins that Don Sutton shouldn't be in and that he wouldn't if not for that achievement.

[SportsAutoFreak]

As everyone here should have a stricter small HOF and not let just any good or all-star caliber player in. Should be for the elite and important in the history of baseball, there absolutely can be players that were all-stars for half their career and put up nice career numbers yet still reasonably be left out of the hall of fame. Gil Hodges was an all-star 8 of his 12 full seasons and put up 370 homers and a .273 lifetime average.

He was also a guy that never was voted higher than 7th for MVP in any of his years, just tough for a guy like that when he played in an era where players like Willie Mays, Duke Snider, Stan Musial, Ernie Banks and other were putting up far better seasons. Hodges put up great numbers when he played but he was never THE guy to fear at the plate, not even on his own team. Again its just my opinion, neither opinion is fact. Just what we believe

I'm actually a Hodges opponent, but what makes a Hall of Famer? All Stars? MVP finishes? Freehan was an 11-time All Star catcher with an MVP runner up in 1968. I think players can quietly put up HOF careers.

The thing about Hodges, I'd vote him in if he played the infield anywhere but first base. A career 120 OPS+ for a first baseman who mostly played at Ebbets doesn't impress me.

[SportsAutoFreak]

Ans $. HOFers don't want to share the pie.

Let's not group them all in that category. Bunning wanted Allen in. Jenkins was disappointed, too. If two got 11 votes, they obviously got HOF support.

I'm still heartbroken Santo only got posthumously inducted.

[Skipscards]

Let's not group them all in that category. Bunning wanted Allen in. Jenkins was disappointed, too. If two got 11 votes, they obviously got HOF support.

I'm still heartbroken Santo only got posthumously inducted.

I will group them all in that category. The only exception is the buddy rule. Allen and Bunning are buddies so of course he'll support him. It's how Doerr got in, (thank you Ted Williams), for example.

[Skipscards]

Figured with today's results being the same, this thread deserved a bump. No thanks once again...

[Djameson79]

This is ridiculous. Maybe Bill Dahlen will finally get in in 2115 and his great great great great grandson can induct him.

[awz50]

Tiant and Oliva should be in

[Skipscards]

Tiant and Oliva should be in

Totally agree. Hodges too.

[Skipscards]

This is ridiculous. Maybe Bill Dahlen will finally get in in 2115 and his great great great great grandson can induct him.

Yeah. I asked around and apparently Dahlen's outside of baseball reputation may be at work here. Apparently he loved to play the ponies more than he loved baseball. While there's no evidence he ever bet on baseball, his reputation of being a gambler hurt his voting back in the day. With all the history enough voters were unwilling to induct him back in the day. Not sure if there are still remnants of that still but it explains why he never gained more steam.

[Djameson79]

Yeah. I asked around and apparently Dahlen's outside of baseball reputation may be at work here. Apparently he loved to play the ponies more than he loved baseball. While there's no evidence he ever bet on baseball, his reputation of being a gambler hurt his voting back in the day. With all the history enough voters were unwilling to induct him back in the day. Not sure if there are still remnants of that still but it explains why he never gained more steam.


Interesting. I never knew of the gambling rumors associated to Dahlen specifically, but I think if you really look into it almost every star from the 19th century was involved in some sort of "shenanigans".

Side note, 111 players currently in the hall have a smaller career WAR than Dahlen.

[Skipscards]

Interesting. I never knew of the gambling rumors associated to Dahlen specifically, but I think if you really look into it almost every star from the 19th century was involved in some sort of "shenanigans".

Side note, 111 players currently in the hall have a smaller career WAR than Dahlen.

Yeah agreed on that. It's interesting though. Gambling was sort of the Steroid topic of the day. Voters probably erred on the side of caution like they do now.

[SportsAutoFreak]

It's a travesty he isn't in, and to not open your doors to Stovey or Adams? Seriously?

[death2redemptions]

What??? Dahlen still didn't get in???

[SportsAutoFreak]

Sadly not. I think the horse race betting is a non issue. He's clearly eligible and not banned from baseball.

[preakness]

I'm
Fine with results

Saying a person is only 1 vote shy isn't that special since only handful votes total

[SportsAutoFreak]

I'm
Fine with results

Saying a person is only 1 vote shy isn't that special since only handful votes total

It's very important and shows a strong outing suggests further support and balloting. I simply think the committee needs to be educated more.

[preakness]

That list full of very good major leaguers but not HOF

[SportsAutoFreak]

That list full of very good major leaguers but not HOF

What makes you say that?

[NickM]

IMO creating a contributors category for people other than team/league executives is the most overdue change.
Lefty O'Doul, as the father of Japanese baseball, would be the most important person to induct in that category.

[rats60]

Interesting. I never knew of the gambling rumors associated to Dahlen specifically, but I think if you really look into it almost every star from the 19th century was involved in some sort of "shenanigans".

Side note, 111 players currently in the hall have a smaller career WAR than Dahlen.

Dahlen's WAR is suspect. Somehow a .928 fielding percentage equates to a dWAR of ~30 and an OPS+ of 110 adds up to 70+ wins. I just don't see these guys as hof.

Doc Adams probably needs a closer look as s contributor, but these players have been examined for years and their credentials have been found to be lacking.

[SportsAutoFreak]

Dahlen's WAR is suspect. Somehow a .928 fielding percentage equates to a dWAR of ~30 and an OPS+ of 110 adds up to 70+ wins. I just don't see these guys as hof.

Doc Adams probably needs a closer look as s contributor, but these players have been examined for years and their credentials have been found to be lacking.

For Dahlen's era he was an excellent defender. We cannot look at that time and apply it to current times.

[Skipscards]

Dahlen's WAR is suspect. Somehow a .928 fielding percentage equates to a dWAR of ~30 and an OPS+ of 110 adds up to 70+ wins. I just don't see these guys as hof.

Doc Adams probably needs a closer look as s contributor, but these players have been examined for years and their credentials have been found to be lacking.

For Dahlen's era he was an excellent defender. We cannot look at that time and apply it to current times.

I think that's the point of stats like OPS+ and WAR. They are designed to provide some context. Overall, I agree there's probably enough pre-war representation in the Hall, but I also wouldn't cry foul if Dahlen got in eventually.

[SportsAutoFreak]

How about instead of seeing how many pre-war players are enshrined, look at who is and who isn't a mistake. Dahlen would not be a mistake.

[briscogun]

The HOF is already too watered down in my book. Here's the way I look at it: if someone is truly HOF worthy, who would you remove from the Hall currently to make room for him? If he's not better than someone already in there, if he hasn't significantly moved the needle, or made a contribution above and beyond what a current member has already done, then he isn't worthy. Just because a guy had 3,000 hits or 300 wins shouldn't get your ticket punched.

As far as comparing it to football, Canton has to admit 6 members every year. So even if no one is worthy, they will scrape the barrel to get 6 guys in because they have to.

I'm okay with zero guys getting in. If they weren't HOF worthy the first time around, what changed just because they got older and closer to death? Teams can have great players that aren't HOF worthy. That's why teams have a Rings of Honor and retire jersey numbers. There's more than one way to honor a players career.

[SportsAutoFreak]

The HOF is already too watered down in my book. Here's the way I look at it: if someone is truly HOF worthy, who would you remove from the Hall currently to make room for him? If he's not better than someone already in there, if he hasn't significantly moved the needle, or made a contribution above and beyond what a current member has already done, then he isn't worthy. Just because a guy had 3,000 hits or 300 wins shouldn't get your ticket punched.

As far as comparing it to football, Canton has to admit 6 members every year. So even if no one is worthy, they will scrape the barrel to get 6 guys in because they have to.

I'm okay with zero guys getting in. If they weren't HOF worthy the first time around, what changed just because they got older and closer to death? Teams can have great players that aren't HOF worthy. That's why teams have a Rings of Honor and retire jersey numbers. There's more than one way to honor a players career.

I would say there are flawed perceptions and people don't always get it right the first time. There's always new evidence to support a player's candidacy.