does this seem like shilling?

[DalliLlama11]

ill give a little background information first cuz itll probably help to know. this card was listed at $300 obo and never sold. i offered $75, when a lil more than $100. the guy never countered, instead he just said "u gotta come closer to my bin price". so in my head he was looking for at least $150, since i think thats how most ppl set up their bins/obo. well the card went to auction this past week. within the last hour of the auction theres a bid from some1 with 1 feedback, i thought it was timely so looked. the guy has 100% bids with this seller in the last 30 days with 17 different items. im thinking this is a side/friend account or whatever that bid up to what he woulda taken on the obo scenario. and it seems like he does this frequently with the bid % and items from this seller. am i wrong and there another reason both would b relatively high?

http://i.gyazo.com/e9ad0cb4d1634d5f697bf96ddc0922d3.png

note: i did not contact the seller, just thinking to myself and wanted other opinions. and if he sends a second chance offer i am not accepting b/c the 1 feedback buyer bumped the price from around $80 to $120.

[Tvanho]

Theres a 99% probability its shilled. Even without the background story its pretty easy to tell. Looks like the seller isn't even trying to hide it either.

[bhmgatech]

Looks like the same account won the five star booklet he was selling.

[DalliLlama11]

Theres a 99% probability its shilled. Even without the background story its pretty easy to tell. Looks like the seller isn't even trying to hide it either.

well thats lame, was a card i really wanted too. guess im gunna have to hope he relists it and doesnt shill it again.

[crac0018]

1. Click on Report item
2. Under Report Category choose: Listing Practices
3. Under Reason For Report choose: Fraudulent Listing Activities
4. Under Detailed Reason choose: Seller is using other accounts to inflate item price (shill bidding)

I called ebay CS and asked what happens after this - they stated they investigate and take appropriate action, but they won't contact the user who reported the violation (privacy concerns, or something of the such). I don't know if ebay does anything, but at the very least it feels like something official was done.

You can still report it, even on a closed auction.

[DalliLlama11]

yea im pretty positive it is then cuz on 1 of his julio auctions got the price bumped from 50-100 too. part of me wants to call him out, but then i almost ruin any chance of getting the card if it gets relisted.

[crac0018]

Don't call him out, just report it using the process I detailed above. If ebay contacts him, he won't know who reported him or if ebay discovered the shilling using their "sophisticated" software.

[DalliLlama11]

Don't call him out, just report it using the process I detailed above. If ebay contacts him, he won't know who reported him or if ebay discovered the shilling using their "sophisticated" software.

I went ahead and did, thanks. Should i report the other listings that had it happen to then or no?

[crac0018]

I went ahead and did, thanks. Should i report the other listings that had it happen to then or no?

That's totally up to you, but I probably wouldn't. There's always the slim chance that it's NOT shilling (could be someone who wants those cards cheap and made another account to make everyone think the seller is shilling).

Plus, if ebay reviews this one case, I imagine they'll look at his other listings as well.

[DalliLlama11]

That's totally up to you, but I probably wouldn't. There's always the slim chance that it's NOT shilling (could be someone who wants those cards cheap and made another account to make everyone think the seller is shilling).

Plus, if ebay reviews this one case, I imagine they'll look at his other listings as well.

yea i probably wont. but if the goal of the guy was to get the cards cheap (doubtful but still) then he failed cuz for the 3 auctions it went to $300 and was 4 cards that shouldnt be up that much in most cases. hopefully he relists them if this is the case so i get another chance. if not, nothing i can do about it now.

[GeechQuest]

OP this isn't directed specifically at you but just in general. I'll probably be flamed but why does anybody care if somebody shills their auctions? Whenever I have an item I want I set a price I'll pay and if I get out bid it's an "oh well".

If this auction is shilled by his buddy and his buddy wins, he owes 10% FVF. Unless he files a claim to recoup the fees, in which case his buddy could never bid again as most smart sellers block non-payers.

I guess I've just always wondered why people get so upset by it? It sucks to miss out on a card but if it truly was shilled the seller pays in the end. I never check bid history nor do I care if somebody shills the auction as I'm not going to go over my limit regardless.

[bigzig]

OP this isn't directed specifically at you but just in general. I'll probably be flamed but why does anybody care if somebody shills their auctions? Whenever I have an item I want I set a price I'll pay and if I get out bid it's an "oh well".

If this auction is shilled by his buddy and his buddy wins, he owes 10% FVF. Unless he files a claim to recoup the fees, in which case his buddy could never bid again as most smart sellers block non-payers.

I guess I've just always wondered why people get so upset by it? It sucks to miss out on a card but if it truly was shilled the seller pays in the end. I never check bid history nor do I care if somebody shills the auction as I'm not going to go over my limit regardless.


Says the guy who went and spent more money at the same store that ripped his girlfriend off......


A shill is working with the seller. Why would a seller block his buddy who is helping jack up the prices? They can cancel as many auctions as they want so the seller would never be out anything but listing fees.

I just don't understand people who say they don't care if they were shilled. Stealing through jacking up the prices is no different than someone Taking money directly out of your wallet.

[GeechQuest]

Says the guy who went and spent more money at the same store that ripped his girlfriend off......


A shill is working with the seller. Why would a seller block his buddy who is helping jack up the prices? They can cancel as many auctions as they want so the seller would never be out anything but listing fees.

I just don't understand people who say they don't care if they were shilled. Stealing through jacking up the prices is no different than someone Taking money directly out of your wallet.


Shilling doesn't steal money from you. Nobody forces you to bid. What's the difference from a seller having a ridiculously high BIN? If you're dumb enough to buy it (or bid on it) they didn't steal from you.

Most smart sellers have Non Paying Buyers blocked by default, so he wouldn't need to block his buddy.

Cancel too many transactions and ebay will suspend or put heavy limitations on your account. Should I spell out how that is worth more than the 10% fee?

So again, how does shilling hurt anybody other then the seller?

[mrdallas]

OP this isn't directed specifically at you but just in general. I'll probably be flamed but why does anybody care if somebody shills their auctions? Whenever I have an item I want I set a price I'll pay and if I get out bid it's an "oh well".

If this auction is shilled by his buddy and his buddy wins, he owes 10% FVF. Unless he files a claim to recoup the fees, in which case his buddy could never bid again as most smart sellers block non-payers.

I guess I've just always wondered why people get so upset by it? It sucks to miss out on a card but if it truly was shilled the seller pays in the end. I never check bid history nor do I care if somebody shills the auction as I'm not going to go over my limit regardless.


I would like to add one thing to this. Just snipe the cards at the end of the auction and POOF a seller can't shill his auctions..

[bigzig]

Shilling doesn't steal money from you. Nobody forces you to bid. What's the difference from a seller having a ridiculously high BIN? If you're dumb enough to buy it (or bid on it) they didn't steal from you.

If you would've won the item for a lower price then it is stealing. Do I need to spell that out?

Most smart sellers have Non Paying Buyers blocked by default, so he wouldn't need to block his buddy.

mutal cancelation is not a non paying bidder. Do you even use ebay?
Cancel too many transactions and ebay will suspend or put heavy limitations on your account. Should I spell out how that is worth more than the 10% fee?

So again, how does shilling hurt anybody other then the seller?

Ebay doesn't suspend anyone for hardly anything. The only time it hurts the seller is when people catch on to him. It's really not that hard to understand.

I would like to add one thing to this. Just snipe the cards at the end of the auction and POOF a seller can't shill his auctions..

If the shill has a max bid entered, your snipe is still affected. He may not be able to nibble yours bid up, but you're still paying more than you would have.

[GeechQuest]

Yes spell out the stealing aspect please. Is it illegal to shill? I'm certain that theft is illegal. You bid what you bid.

If I have someone shill an item I have up to $100, and you snipe at $50 because that's what you were going to pay, you're not affecteted.

I dunno, agree to disagree...

[bigzig]

Yes, actually it is illegal. Felony in some states.

If the last legitimate bidder bids $35. Shiller bids $45. You bid $50. Without the shiller you win for $36. The seller who set up the shill stole at least $10 from you.

[DalliLlama11]

I would like to add one thing to this. Just snipe the cards at the end of the auction and POOF a seller can't shill his auctions..

i set a snipe. idt this is a classic shilling in the case of "keep bidding til u get a price then cancel/retract a bid". the card was at $50. with an hr left it jumped up to $77. i can get that to an extent. i had my snipe set for a few days. not a single bid from that hr where it was at $77 til my snipe set in. my snipe was for $127. i more or less think this guy set a "side reserve" or whatever. where he used a side account and placed a bid as that max, which is technically the lowest hed take for a card. accounts max=sellers min to actually get the card. having 17 items bid on and 100% with a seller is just too coincidental. if it was 3-4 even 5 items i get it. but for it to be high double digit items and still all with the same seller, something is fishy.

to geech saying shilling only affect the seller, im sry but i have to disagree by a mile. im in position to win a card, the card gets shilled to the pt where im outbid by the side account. 2 things r gunna happen, either i get charged more than i would have had the item not been shilled. or 2 the seller is gunna say "there isnt enough interest in the card" and not relist the card, making me lose out on the item all together. both of these situations r bad for the buyer, not seller.

[GeechQuest]

Yes, actually it is illegal. Felony in some states.

If the last legitimate bidder bids $35. Shiller bids $45. You bid $50. Without the shiller you win for $36. The seller who set up the shill stole at least $10 from you.


Ahhhh a felony :rolleyes:... So because he "forced" you to bid $50 he stole money from you. Got it :)!

[GeechQuest]

i set a snipe. idt this is a classic shilling in the case of "keep bidding til u get a price then cancel/retract a bid". the card was at $50. with an hr left it jumped up to $77. i can get that to an extent. i had my snipe set for a few days. not a single bid from that hr where it was at $77 til my snipe set in. my snipe was for $127. i more or less think this guy set a "side reserve" or whatever. where he used a side account and placed a bid as that max, which is technically the lowest hed take for a card. accounts max=sellers min to actually get the card. having 17 items bid on and 100% with a seller is just too coincidental. if it was 3-4 even 5 items i get it. but for it to be high double digit items and still all with the same seller, something is fishy.

to geech saying shilling only affect the seller, im sry but i have to disagree by a mile. im in position to win a card, the card gets shilled to the pt where im outbid by the side account. 2 things r gunna happen, either i get charged more than i would have had the item not been shilled. or 2 the seller is gunna say "there isnt enough interest in the card" and not relist the card, making me lose out on the item all together. both of these situations r bad for the buyer, not seller.

So the seller, who is wanting to SELL his card, is not hurt when it doesn't sell because he essentially won it?

I get that shilling sucks and is annoying if you were trying to buy a card. To me it's no different then absurd BINs listed on cards. It sucks because the seller is unreasonable, but it's the seller's card. He or she can do whatever they want with it. Sure it's lame, but it is what it is.

In the end the seller lost out on a potential REAL sale, which is what he's on ebay for. Also, if he cancels enough transactions all confidence is lost with the seller and he can have restrictions put against him.

or worse....FELONY CHARGES:eek:

[bigzig]

Ahhhh a felony :rolleyes:... So because he "forced" you to bid $50 he stole money from you. Got it :)!

:confused::confused::confused: he wouldn't have forced me to bid anything. However I would have legitimately won for $36 in my scenario vs $46. What's so hard to understand? If you don't mind wasting money then go for it, but it doesn't it make it ok.

Look up the legality of it if you don't believe me.

[Tvanho]

OP this isn't directed specifically at you but just in general. I'll probably be flamed but why does anybody care if somebody shills their auctions? Whenever I have an item I want I set a price I'll pay and if I get out bid it's an "oh well".

If this auction is shilled by his buddy and his buddy wins, he owes 10% FVF. Unless he files a claim to recoup the fees, in which case his buddy could never bid again as most smart sellers block non-payers.

I guess I've just always wondered why people get so upset by it? It sucks to miss out on a card but if it truly was shilled the seller pays in the end. I never check bid history nor do I care if somebody shills the auction as I'm not going to go over my limit regardless.

Oh wow. I don't think I've ever seen someone defend a shiller. I hope this doesn't mean what it leads me to believe about you.

The middle paragraph is incorrect. Sellers can back out of an auction afterwards either by saying the item was lost or damaged, etc. Not only that, its probably not a buddy, but an additional account set up solely for this purpose. And once this account is blocked, he can just create a new one for the same purpose and never be out anything.

You can say all day that you will never go over your limit, lets say $100 for a hypothetical card. This hypothetical card would have sold for $50 but the auction gets shilled all the way up to $90. You still never went over your max, but if you say you are fine spending $40 more just because a seller got that money out of you, then there is no sense in even arguing this with you.

[bigzig]

So the seller, who is wanting to SELL his card, is not hurt when it doesn't sell because he essentially won it?

I get that shilling sucks and is annoying if you were trying to buy a card. To me it's no different then absurd BINs listed on cards. It sucks because the seller is unreasonable, but it's the seller's card. He or she can do whatever they want with it. Sure it's lame, but it is what it is.

In the end the seller lost out on a potential REAL sale, which is what he's on ebay for. Also, if he cancels enough transactions all confidence is lost with the seller and he can have restrictions put against him.

or worse....FELONY CHARGES:eek:

Shilling helps the seller get more money. Shilling does not hurt a seller AT ALL. Unless they get caught.

So let me get this straight. If you were selling a card on Ebay, you would be perfectly ok with letting a friend of yours bid the card up so a legitimate bidder would have to pay more to win it? Good to know.

If you don't want to sell below a certain price then start the auction at the least you would be willing to accept, or set auction reserve on it.

[DalliLlama11]

So the seller, who is wanting to SELL his card, is not hurt when it doesn't sell because he essentially won it?

I get that shilling sucks and is annoying if you were trying to buy a card. To me it's no different then absurd BINs listed on cards. It sucks because the seller is unreasonable, but it's the seller's card. He or she can do whatever they want with it. Sure it's lame, but it is what it is.

In the end the seller lost out on a potential REAL sale, which is what he's on ebay for. Also, if he cancels enough transactions all confidence is lost with the seller and he can have restrictions put against him.

or worse....FELONY CHARGES:eek:

yea he may lose out on a potential real sale....on ebay. he can still sell it at a show, lcs, comc, several other places. all of which probably wouldnt know this happened to show him as a shady seller..and even so, sure the effect of shilling has 1 potential negative effect for the seller, and 2 negative effects for the buyer. so who really gets hurt more? the seller has something to lose but the buyer has more to lose, including their money that otherwise wouldnt be spent on it. see thats a major difference for me and u, udt theres a difference from shilling and high bins, which i clearly see there is.a high bin at least the seller is honest. i had no problem when the seller said he wanted closer to $300 when i offered a lil more than $100 when he had it listed as a bin obo. thats fine, its his card. when he gets it, he gets it. but to auction it then shill it because he didnt get the offer is different. some high bins r just b/c ppl pc cards and thats the price to get it out of their pc, and ah is the opposite where ur saying, whatever it ends at is what ill let it go for. clearly this seller wasnt ethical and that is a major difference.

[bigzig]

Oh wow. I don't think I've ever seen someone defend a shiller. I hope this doesn't mean what it leads me to believe about you.

The middle paragraph is incorrect. Sellers can back out of an auction afterwards either by saying the item was lost or damaged, etc. Not only that, its probably not a buddy, but an additional account set up solely for this purpose. And once this account is blocked, he can just create a new one for the same purpose and never be out anything.

You can say all day that you will never go over your limit, lets say $100 for a hypothetical card. This hypothetical card would have sold for $50 but the auction gets shilled all the way up to $90. You still never went over your max, but if you say you are fine spending $40 more just because a seller got that money out of you, then there is no sense in even arguing this with you.

This is what I'm leaning towards. After all, he thought it was a great deal to get 15% off a box of cards after the shop straight up ripped off his girlfriend.

[GeechQuest]

Oh wow. I don't think I've ever seen someone defend a shiller. I hope this doesn't mean what it leads me to believe about you.

The middle paragraph is incorrect. Sellers can back out of an auction afterwards either by saying the item was lost or damaged, etc. Not only that, its probably not a buddy, but an additional account set up solely for this purpose. And once this account is blocked, he can just create a new one for the same purpose and never be out anything.

You can say all day that you will never go over your limit, lets say $100 for a hypothetical card. This hypothetical card would have sold for $50 but the auction gets shilled all the way up to $90. You still never went over your max, but if you say you are fine spending $40 more just because a seller got that money out of you, then there is no sense in even arguing this with you.

I'm saying nobody can force more money out of you when you're the one bidding. Worst case is you don't get the card because (in the scenario above) you bid $50.

Again, we all agree that shilling sucks. If you complain that you paid more than you would have because of shilling you're an idiot. You bid what you bid and move on.

Sounds like a lot of you spent more money then you intended and want to blame shill bids as opposed to your own self discipline.

[GeechQuest]

:confused::confused::confused: he wouldn't have forced me to bid anything. However I would have legitimately won for $36 in my scenario vs $46. What's so hard to understand? If you don't mind wasting money then go for it, but it doesn't it make it ok.

Look up the legality of it if you don't believe me.

I've looked up the legality of it. You're right....

Also did you know that people's income tax returns are delayed until October??? ;););)

Show me the law and I'll admit I'm wrong...I honestly can't find it...

[kevinh1919]

:confused::confused::confused: he wouldn't have forced me to bid anything. However I would have legitimately won for $36 in my scenario vs $46. What's so hard to understand? If you don't mind wasting money then go for it, but it doesn't it make it ok.

Look up the legality of it if you don't believe me.

I think that's been proven already.

:D

Oh wow. I don't think I've ever seen someone defend a shiller. I hope this doesn't mean what it leads me to believe about you.

The middle paragraph is incorrect. Sellers can back out of an auction afterwards either by saying the item was lost or damaged, etc. Not only that, its probably not a buddy, but an additional account set up solely for this purpose. And once this account is blocked, he can just create a new one for the same purpose and never be out anything.

You can say all day that you will never go over your limit, lets say $100 for a hypothetical card. This hypothetical card would have sold for $50 but the auction gets shilled all the way up to $90. You still never went over your max, but if you say you are fine spending $40 more just because a seller got that money out of you, then there is no sense in even arguing this with you.

There's nothing wrong with it, but "he" doesn't do it.

:D

[Tvanho]

I'm saying nobody can force more money out of you when you're the one bidding. Worst case is you don't get the card because (in the scenario above) you bid $50.

Again, we all agree that shilling sucks. If you complain that you paid more than you would have because of shilling you're an idiot. You bid what you bid and move on.

Sounds like a lot of you spent more money then you intended and want to blame shill bids as opposed to your own self discipline.

This logic is fundamentally flawed by the way I just described. Your max is $100, card would have sold for $50 if the seller hadn't shilled it to $90, you now lose $40 because of an unethical act. I am now pretty convinced you must do this.

[DalliLlama11]

i can just go on a limb and say u can report shilling on ebay, b/c ur not suppose to do it. but who knows, maybe they just put it there to give me something to click.

[GeechQuest]

This logic is fundamentally flawed by the way I just described. Your max is $100, card would have sold for $50 if the seller hadn't shilled it to $90, you now lose $40 because of an unethical act. I am now pretty convinced you must do this.


You spent $90 because you bid $100 and that's what the auction ended at. If you didn't want to spend that much why bid $100?

You do understand logic and reason correct? If you only wanted to spend $50, then bid $50...

[kevinh1919]

I've looked up the legality of it. You're right....

Also did you know that people's income tax returns are delayed until October??? ;););)

Show me the law and I'll admit I'm wrong...I honestly can't find it...

Serious question:

If your girlfriend was going to buy you a pack of cards for Christmas...what difference does it make which price the LCS sold it to her for?

After all, she willingly walked into the store and asked for Bowman Sterling (and she was willing to pay $50).

:cool:

[SK40]

And people have a crack at the Basketball forum.....

[GeechQuest]

Serious question:

If your girlfriend was going to buy you a pack of cards for Christmas...what difference does it make which price the LCS sold it to her for?

After all, noone made her walk into the store and ask for Bowman Sterling.

:cool:

what's a noone?

I hope you don't think shilling and that thread are remotely similar? Do you :(?

[DalliLlama11]

Serious question:

If your girlfriend was going to buy you a pack of cards for Christmas...what difference does it make which price the LCS sold it to her for?

After all, noone made her walk into the store and ask for Bowman Sterling - she was willing to pay $50.

:cool:

+1 to u sir

[bigzig]

You spent $90 because you bid $100 and that's what the auction ended at. If you didn't want to spend that much why bid $100?

You do understand logic and reason correct? If you only wanted to spend $50, then bid $50...

Just because you were willing to pay 100 doesn't mean you should've had to.

[DalliLlama11]

what's a noone?

I hope you don't think shilling and that thread are remotely similar? Do you :(?

how is it not? she wanted something got charged more than she woulda otherwise, but still paid the price. isnt that the exact scenario of a shill if the person still wins?

im done with this threa anyways. geech has no moral compass evidently and either the card will be relisted or its gone and i save 100+. nbd, the pt of the thread was never that i didnt get it, its just that a seller had the nerve to reject 2 offers and list it then shill it to the price i offered. its 1 thing to reject the offers, idc. its another to auction it afterwards and shill.

[GeechQuest]

how is it not? she wanted something got charged more than she woulda otherwise, but still paid the price. isnt that the exact scenario of a shill if the person still wins?

I guess in a round about, stretch kind of way sure.

One walks in, ask's for Bowman Sterling, but isn't aware of the difference between 2013 and 2014 because they don't buy cards.

The other KNOWINGLY bids $100 on SOMETHING THEY WANT on eBay, then complains when the auction ends at $90.

"They must have been a shill bidder! I'm going to report them! Did you see the percentage of bids with that seller???" :rolleyes:

[Tvanho]

Serious question:

If your girlfriend was going to buy you a pack of cards for Christmas...what difference does it make which price the LCS sold it to her for?

After all, noone made her walk into the store and ask for Bowman Sterling - she was willing to pay $50.

:cool:

Excellent point, sir. But obviously Mr. Quest is beyond arguing with. I am pretty sure he shills and is looking for any reason to think its acceptable.

Along with that, I am also pretty sure that he has given up on this forum after that other thread and has dedicated himself to becoming a full time troll. I don't think any honest person could ever defend the practice of shilling.

[GeechQuest]

how is it not? she wanted something got charged more than she woulda otherwise, but still paid the price. isnt that the exact scenario of a shill if the person still wins?

im done with this threa anyways. geech has no moral compass evidently and either the card will be relisted or its gone and i save 100+. nbd, the pt of the thread was never that i didnt get it, its just that a seller had the nerve to reject 2 offers and list it then shill it to the price i offered. its 1 thing to reject the offers, idc. its another to auction it afterwards and shill.

The difference being you reported somebody on a "hunch". It sucks you lost out on a card and I feel for you on that. You saved money though, and your detective work took one more shill bidder off of eBay...

[GeechQuest]

Just because you were willing to pay 100 doesn't mean you should've had to.


Where's the law again?

[bigzig]

Shill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill)

You got me on the tax returns though. :rolleyes: I wasn't for sure on something so I asked for confirmation.

[GeechQuest]

Excellent point, sir. But obviously Mr. Quest is beyond arguing with. I am pretty sure he shills and is looking for any reason to think its acceptable.

Along with that, I am also pretty sure that he has given up on this forum after that other thread and has dedicated himself to becoming a full time troll. I don't think any honest person could ever defend the practice of shilling.

I'm not defending it at all. It's annoying and sucks.

I also know none of you can prove shill bidding. If you could you wouldn't need to ask a forum "does this look like shilling?"

[DalliLlama11]

The difference being you reported somebody on a "hunch". It sucks you lost out on a card and I feel for you on that. You saved money though, and your detective work took one more shill bidder off of eBay...

every report on ebay is a "hunch" theres not gunna b tracing ips or anything to see if the id is in the same house or w.e. and yes, i reported him and im glad i did. whether or not it was shilled, i still think it was maybe itll let him know that other potential buyers r weary of his auctions. and as long as they think hes a shiller hell get less business. sometimes rejecting a person with 1 feedback and 100% on ur items (cuz i know so many ppl that have 15+ items bid on from the exact same seller in a 30 day period....)is better than having them buy ur stuff.

[GeechQuest]

Shill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill)

You got me on the tax returns though. :rolleyes: I wasn't for sure on something so I asked for confirmation.


If you read deeper into that, you'd realize he was convicted of fraud due to selling a fake painting not for shilling an eBay auction...:confused:

Dan Glaister reports on arts fraud in eBay | Art and design | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2006/aug/02/art.crime)

Again, the law please?

[GeechQuest]

every report on ebay is a "hunch" theres not gunna b tracing ips or anything to see if the id is in the same house or w.e. and yes, i reported him and im glad i did. whether or not it was shilled, i still think it was maybe itll let him know that other potential buyers r weary of his auctions. and as long as they think hes a shiller hell get less business. sometimes rejecting a person with 1 feedback and 100% on ur items (cuz i know so many ppl that have 15+ items bid on from the exact same seller in a 30 day period....)is better than having them buy ur stuff.

I don't disagree with you on that one. Nor do I on the shill bidding, it sucks. But it doesn't affect anything.

In a perfect world the seller will see what you "the real bidder" was willing to spend and send you a 2nd chance offer.

I've probably won 10 auctions by way of 2nd chance offer...maybe due to shilling, maybe not...

[bigzig]

I guess in a round about, stretch kind of way sure.

One walks in, ask's for Bowman Sterling, but isn't aware of the difference between 2013 and 2014 because they don't buy cards.

The other KNOWINGLY bids $100 on SOMETHING THEY WANT on eBay, then complains when the auction ends at $90.

"They must have been a shill bidder! I'm going to report them! Did you see the percentage of bids with that seller???" :rolleyes:

You're a flipping moron if you think that is the thought process for most people

Where's the law again?

I'll be home in a bit I'm positive I can find several instances of arrests for shill/ price fixing.

[DalliLlama11]

I don't disagree with you on that one. Nor do I on the shill bidding, it sucks. But it doesn't affect anything.

In a perfect world the seller will see what you "the real bidder" was willing to spend and send you a 2nd chance offer.

I've probably won 10 auctions by way of 2nd chance offer...maybe due to shilling, maybe not...

i dont want a second chance offer when im rang up an extra $50 bucks. thats what i dont think u understand. if it was a real account that was interested in the card from the start that didnt pay and he offered me a second chance, id take it. maybe that person ran into financial problems or didnt get paid yet or whatever. but when some1 is deliberately nickle and diming me, im not gunna pay u an extra $50 just b/c ur stingy and not satisfied by how much ur card yielded.

[GeechQuest]

i dont want a second chance offer when im rang up an extra $50 bucks. thats what i dont think u understand. if it was a real account that was interested in the card from the start that didnt pay and he offered me a second chance, id take it. maybe that person ran into financial problems or didnt get paid yet or whatever. but when some1 is deliberately nickle and diming me, im not gunna pay u an extra $50 just b/c ur stingy and not satisfied by how much ur card yielded.

A 2nd chance offer is just an offer at a price you bid. If you don't bid more than you intend on spending, you will never have a problem I promise...

[kevinh1919]

what's a noone?

I hope you don't think shilling and that thread are remotely similar? Do you :(?

No one, nobody, noone, no common sense...better yet...it's the same thing as "dunno".

:rolleyes:

That being said, I'll steal a line from you as it relates to your non-favorite LCS owner:

"Ahhhh a felony ... So because he "forced" her to pay $50 he stole money from her. Got it"

For the record, I actually felt bad for your girlfriend as I think she was taken advantage of.

:cool:

[DalliLlama11]

A 2nd chance offer is just an offer at a price you bid. If you don't bid more than you intend on spending, you will never have a problem I promise...

i didnt bid more than i was willing or intending to spend. but if a card isnt gunna go for that much y would i be ok with it. im a college kid working a part time job. y would i be ok with losing out on $50 b/c some1 else is greedy? i think most of us here can say we've auctioned a card and got less out of it than we wanted. that doesnt mean shill the card to get a price u want. what i dont understand how ur defending the shill is that u say "dont bid more than u dont want to spend". so y arent u saying "the seller shoulda set a reserve to the least amount theyd accept". y r u continually saying the buyer should do this, or do that. when the seller coulda made it all avoidable by setting a reserve, or starting an auction at their min price...

[bigzig]

I'm not defending it at all. It's annoying and sucks.

I also know none of you can prove shill bidding. If you could you wouldn't need to ask a forum "does this look like shilling?"

um..what? Because one person asked, it means no one can spot it?


If you read deeper into that, you'd realize he was convicted of fraud due to selling a fake painting not for shilling an eBay auction...:confused:

Dan Glaister reports on arts fraud in eBay | Art and design | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2006/aug/02/art.crime)

Again, the law please?

Directly from that link I posted ... Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions[1]#@because of the potential for fraud and damage

I don't disagree with you on that one. Nor do I on the shill bidding, it sucks. But it doesn't affect anything.


In a perfect world the seller will see what you "the real bidder" was willing to spend and send you a 2nd chance offer.

I've probably won 10 auctions by way of 2nd chance offer...maybe due to shilling, maybe not...

You can't possibly be serious. It affects the final price you are paying.

[GeechQuest]

i didnt bid more than i was willing or intending to spend. but if a card isnt gunna go for that much y would i be ok with it. im a college kid working a part time job. y would i be ok with losing out on $50 b/c some1 else is greedy? i think most of us here can say we've auctioned a card and got less out of it than we wanted. that doesnt mean shill the card to get a price u want. what i dont understand how ur defending the shill is that u say "dont bid more than u dont want to spend". so y arent u saying "the seller shoulda set a reserve to the least amount theyd accept". y r u continually saying the buyer should do this, or do that. when the seller coulda made it all avoidable by setting a reserve, or starting an auction at their min price...

Fair enough, reserve price or not you still end up with the same result. You don't get the card for the price you want.

[DalliLlama11]

Fair enough, reserve price or not you still end up with the same result. You don't get the card for the price you want.

correct, but setting a reserve isnt shady or unethical.

[bigzig]

Fair enough, reserve price or not you still end up with the same result. You don't get the card for the price you want.

Reserve=ethical. Shilling = unethical/illegal. Big difference

[bigzig]

For starters...

Shill bidding policy (http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html)

Make sure you follow these guidelines. If you dont, you may be subject to a range of actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account. Shill bidding is also illegal in many places and can carry severe penalties.

A Message from Rob Chesnut | eBay Announcement Page (http://announcements.ebay.com/2007/01/a-message-from-rob-chesnut-launch-of-safeguarding-member-ids-on-ebaycom-and-ebay-canada/)

Not only is this activity prohibited by our policies (read our shill bidding policy), it is also a crime in many states

https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/what-is-shill-bidding/

For the shill bidder, the consequences can range from being barred from participating in auctions, to civil and and even criminal charges; fines alone to-date have been as high as $400,000 for shill bidding. Most every case of shill bidding resulting in civil charges has involved some type of online auction, where the identity of the bidders is more easily concealed.

Shill bidding is a crime and auctioneers need to do everything they can to help eliminate it from the auction industry.


F.B.I. Opens Investigation of EBay Bids (http://partners.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/06/biztech/articles/07ebay-fraud.html)

Self-bidding, known as shill bidding, is forbidden by eBay rules and is generally illegal in the traditional auction world.

Participation in a shill-bidding ring would run afoul of federal statutes prohibiting mail fraud and wire fraud; each count could carry a maximum penalty of up to five years in prison and $1 million in fines


"shill Bidding" Exposed In Online Auctions | Eric T. Schneiderman (http://www.ag.ny.gov/press-release/shill-bidding-exposed-online-auctions)

In the first case, three individuals pleaded guilty to criminal charges stemming from actions they took to inflate the prices of artwork and other merchandise that was sold in E-Bay auctions

"The use of shill bids in on-line auctions illegally drives up prices and defrauds consumers," Spitzer said. "These cases and continuing efforts to monitor transactions should help maintain the integrity of on-line auctions

According to the criminal charges, Schuster, Szydlowski and Komsisky cast bids in over 1,100 of each others' eBay auctions for the sole purpose of driving up the price of the merchandise that they offered for sale over a five-year period

In a separate civil case, Robert Baranovich and his son, Steven Baranovich, of West Babylon, agreed to pay $10,000 in penalties and restitution to consumers harmed by their shill bidding. In a complaint filed with the Consent Order settling the case, the Attorney General alleged that the Baranoviches placed 170 phony bids in 165 of their own E-Bay auctions of sports memorabilia.

In another civil case, Richard Eggleston, Darryl Lien, and David Printy, together with a related corporation, Daryl Lien, Inc., agreed to pay more than $28,000 in penalties and restitution for their shill bidding practices.

For example, in one auction, Schuster's New Windsor Gallery "shilled up" by more than $7,300 an oil painting attributed to Hudson River School artist Ralph Blakelock (1847-1919). The high bidder paid $7,500 for the painting. Another purported Blakelock fetched $3,000 - shilled up by more than $2,800. The Gallery shilled up its auction of an antique cloisonne vase by more than $2,500 - ultimately selling for $3,250. Yet another bidder was overcharged $2,372, for art work he purchased in over thirty separate auctions.

But, but, but...They were willing to spend that much so whats the big deal?!!:rolleyes:

In one of Daryl Lien Inc.'s online auctions, the high bidder for a 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee overpaid by more than $3,000. In one of the Baranoviches' auctions, the purchaser of a bat signed by the 2000 New York Yankees paid $999 - a sum shilled up $175 from its previous high bid of $824.

The cases were handled by Stephen Kline of the Attorney General's Internet Bureau, Michelle Maerov of the Criminal Prosecutions Bureau, Howard Wettan of the Antitrust Bureau, and Kenneth Dreifach, who is Chief of the Internet Bureau. Hampton Finer, Chief Economist for the Antitrust Bureau, Vanessa Ip, Investigator for the Internet Bureau, and Brian Ford of the Investigations Bureau also assisted in these investigations.



So yea...it's illegal

[GeechQuest]

I apologize....You were right, I was wrong

[hairyangryfella]

I guess in a round about, stretch kind of way sure.

One walks in, ask's for Bowman Sterling, but isn't aware of the difference between 2013 and 2014 because they don't buy cards.

The other KNOWINGLY bids $100 on SOMETHING THEY WANT on eBay, then complains when the auction ends at $90.

"They must have been a shill bidder! I'm going to report them! Did you see the percentage of bids with that seller???" :rolleyes:

I'm really not sure if this forum is the best place for you...

You have no backbone/morals - continuing to purchase from a store that knowingly rips you/people off.
You think shilling is ok as long as you get it for less than your max bid.

If I'm prepared to pay $400 for a card I badly want and snipe it, and it would have sold for $120 but a seller 'bids a reserve price' of $250, then I am paying over $130 more than I should have, even though I was willing to pay more.
If I'm prepared to pay $400 for a card I badly want and bid that $400 early in the auction, and a seller gets another account to to bid it up and up to $250, then again I am paying over $130 more than I should have, even though I was willing to pay more.

Both examples of shilling and how sellers steal from you when doing it, in this example an amount of $130.

Being willing to pay something and having to pay something are not the same thing!!

[GeechQuest]

What's the saying? Something is worth what someone is willing to pay I believe?

So if you're willing to pay $400 then that's what the card is worth. If you're willing to pay $120 then that's what the card is worth.

I'm not sure where you learned economics...

I'm sure all of you complaining about being shilled up and having to pay more, being "ripped off" as you put, would notify the seller if you paid way under market value for a card because the seller made a mistake in the listing or ended the listing at an awful time right?

If a seller misspells "Giannis Antetokounmpo" and you run across the listing I know you would message the seller so he can get his proper value for the card. That would be the "MORAL" thing to do right? You wouldn't steal from the seller because he spelled the card wrong or had an awful listing would you? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm really not sure if this forum is the best place for you...

You have no backbone/morals - continuing to purchase from a store that knowingly rips you/people off.
You think shilling is ok as long as you get it for less than your max bid.

If I'm prepared to pay $400 for a card I badly want and snipe it, and it would have sold for $120 but a seller 'bids a reserve price' of $250, then I am paying over $130 more than I should have, even though I was willing to pay more.
If I'm prepared to pay $400 for a card I badly want and bid that $400 early in the auction, and a seller gets another account to to bid it up and up to $250, then again I am paying over $130 more than I should have, even though I was willing to pay more.

Both examples of shilling and how sellers steal from you when doing it, in this example an amount of $130.

Being willing to pay something and having to pay something are not the same thing!!

[bigzig]

What's the saying? Something is worth what someone is willing to pay I believe?

So if you're willing to pay $400 then that's what the card is worth. If you're willing to pay $120 then that's what the card is worth.

I'm not sure where you learned economics...

I'm sure all of you complaining about being shilled up and having to pay more, being "ripped off" as you put, would notify the seller if you paid way under market value for a card because the seller made a mistake in the listing or ended the listing at an awful time right?

If a seller misspells "Giannis Antetokounmpo" and you run across the listing I know you would message the seller so he can get his proper value for the card. That would be the "MORAL" thing to do right? You wouldn't steal from the seller because he spelled the card wrong or had an awful listing would you? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I was going to take your apology and drop it, but now you are comparing shilling to making a poor listing???? That is down right laughable.

[DalliLlama11]

What's the saying? Something is worth what someone is willing to pay I believe?

So if you're willing to pay $400 then that's what the card is worth. If you're willing to pay $120 then that's what the card is worth.

I'm not sure where you learned economics...

I'm sure all of you complaining about being shilled up and having to pay more, being "ripped off" as you put, would notify the seller if you paid way under market value for a card because the seller made a mistake in the listing or ended the listing at an awful time right?

If a seller misspells "Giannis Antetokounmpo" and you run across the listing I know you would message the seller so he can get his proper value for the card. That would be the "MORAL" thing to do right? You wouldn't steal from the seller because he spelled the card wrong or had an awful listing would you? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


i notice this a lot of times for a guy like devonta freeman. ive seen him spelled davanta freeman, or devonte freeman, both of which r wrong. 1 of them was a 1/1. and actually, i did message the sellers to tell them they spelled it wrong. b/c while i may not be interested in the card, another falcons fan may or freeman collector may be. i rather have them get it than some1 trying to flip it for personal gain. so i told the sellers that it was spelled wrong, hoping they would and more falcons/freeman fans would see the card and it would go to 1 of them.

[cadillac540]

Serious question:

If your girlfriend was going to buy you a pack of cards for Christmas...what difference does it make which price the LCS sold it to her for?

After all, she willingly walked into the store and asked for Bowman Sterling (and she was willing to pay $50).

:cool:

Well played sir, well played.

[GeechQuest]

I was going to take your apology and drop it, but now you are comparing shilling to making a poor listing???? That is down right laughable.


And I was apologizing to drop it....but I guess you want to see the real law.

This is from the Uniform Commercial Code, which is adhered to by all 50 states:

U.C.C. – ARTICLE 2 – SALES
PART 3. GENERAL OBLIGATION AND CONSTRUCTION OF CONTRACT
§ 2-328. Sale by Auction.

(1) In a sale by auction if goods are put up in lots each lot is the subject of a separate sale.

(2) A sale by auction is complete when the auctioneer so announces by the fall of the hammer or in other customary manner. Where a bid is made while the hammer is falling in acceptance of a prior bid the auctioneer may in his discretion reopen the bidding or declare the goods sold under the bid on which the hammer was falling.

(3) Such a sale is with reserve unless the goods are in explicit terms put up without reserve. In an auction with reserve the auctioneer may withdraw the goods at any time until he announces completion of the sale. In an auction without reserve, after the auctioneer calls for bids on an article or lot, that article or lot cannot be withdrawn unless no bid is made within a reasonable time. In either case a bidder may retract his bid until the auctioneer’s announcement of completion of the sale, but a bidder’s retraction does not revive any previous bid.

(4) If the auctioneer knowingly receives a bid on the seller’s behalf or the seller makes or procures such a bid, and notice has not been given that liberty for such bidding is reserved, the buyer may at his option avoid the sale or take the goods at the price of the last good faith bid prior to the completion of the sale. This subsection shall not apply to any bid at a forced sale.


If you consult your lawyer you keep on retainer, he will explain it to you.

In short, the buyer can AVOID THE SALE (in eBay terms that would be cancel) or TAKE THE GOODS AT THE PRICE OF THE LAST GOOD FAITH BID (in our example you would get the goods at your $50 bid)

That's the actual LAW

That's assuming in the fine print of the listing the seller hasn't said that they reserve the right to "shill their auctions", which I have seen in very fine print in some people's eBay listing's before.

Also, you would have to PROVE the seller is shilling his auction, which can be tough. Or, as some of you do, you can get on a forum and accuse an eBay seller of shilling his auction. This of course could lead to you facing a libel or slander case, as you have now tried to hurt a person's reputation and/or livelihood. I'm sure there are civil litigation attorneys on this site that would love to bring these charges against some of you ;), so I would be careful in the future making those type of threads.


Any lawyer worth a damn would have the case immediately thrown out, and the plaintiff (the person bringing the accusations of shill bidding) would pay for the defendant's (the person defending his actions of shill bidding) legal fees.

[bigzig]

Its still a law though. That's the point. You're the one arguing legality. You're the one saying it only hurts the seller. You're the one saying that if you were willing to pay $400, then what's the big deal if you should've won it for $50, but got shilled up to $399.

[GeechQuest]

Again, agree to disagree. It's a law because this has been discussed in various forms before this forum was ever created.

You say it's illegal, I showed you the actual LAW, which states in "legal speak" that it's NOT illegal. At least not in the instances we've been discussing.

I've been a dick to you and I apologize for that. I'm saying this seriously, If there's anything you collect you can PM and I'll check to see if I got something for you. I'll send you something as an apology. This goes for the OP as well.




Its still a law though. That's the point. You're the one arguing legality. You're the one saying it only hurts the seller. You're the one saying that if you were willing to pay $400, then what's the big deal if you should've won it for $50, but got shilled up to $399.

[crac0018]

Again, agree to disagree. It's a law because this has been discussed in various forms before this forum was ever created.

You say it's illegal, I showed you the actual LAW, which states in "legal speak" that it's NOT illegal. At least not in the instances we've been discussing.

I've been a dick to you and I apologize for that. I'm saying this seriously, If there's anything you collect you can PM and I'll check to see if I got something for you. I'll send you something as an apology. This goes for the OP as well.

Wow, don't know if an instigator has ever done this on BO before...

[Tvanho]

http://www.troll.me/images/ancient-aliens-guy/your-argument-is-invalid-because-aliens.jpg

[bigzig]

Again, agree to disagree. It's a law because this has been discussed in various forms before this forum was ever created.

You say it's illegal, I showed you the actual LAW, which states in "legal speak" that it's NOT illegal. At least not in the instances we've been discussing.

I've been a dick to you and I apologize for that. I'm saying this seriously, If there's anything you collect you can PM and I'll check to see if I got something for you. I'll send you something as an apology. This goes for the OP as well.

Agree to disagree it is, I guess. I'll never understand why some people think shilling is ok because you were willing to spend that much anyway...

[hairyangryfella]

What's the saying? Something is worth what someone is willing to pay I believe?

So if you're willing to pay $400 then that's what the card is worth. If you're willing to pay $120 then that's what the card is worth.

I'm not sure where you learned economics...

I'm sure all of you complaining about being shilled up and having to pay more, being "ripped off" as you put, would notify the seller if you paid way under market value for a card because the seller made a mistake in the listing or ended the listing at an awful time right?

If a seller misspells "Giannis Antetokounmpo" and you run across the listing I know you would message the seller so he can get his proper value for the card. That would be the "MORAL" thing to do right? You wouldn't steal from the seller because he spelled the card wrong or had an awful listing would you? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Actually it's worth one increment more than someone else is willing to pay... ;)
And if a fake bid is placed then that ruins the entire process.

However, it's pointless trying to be logical with someone who doesn't understand basic concepts of right and wrong :rolleyes:

[barnsz]

this guy here only bidding with this seller
Bidding Details

Bidder Information
Bidder: d***a ( 280Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: Item Title: 2012 All Time Greats Sports #GA-DM2 Dan Marino Signatures Auto Card 1/6
Bids on this item: 6

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 743
Items bid on: 138
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 98% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0
30-Day Bid History
Category No. of Bids Seller Help Last Bid Help
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Football 6 Seller 1 6d
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Football 2 Seller 1 5d 23h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 1 Seller 1 1d 3h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 1 Seller 1 1d 2h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 1 Seller 1 1d 1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Other 1 Seller 1 3d 22h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Other 1 Seller 1 3d 3h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Hockey 4 Seller 1 3d 2h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 5 Seller 1 3d 1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 3 Seller 1 2d 2h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 7 Seller 1 2d 2h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 1 Seller 1 2d 1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 1 Seller 1 1d 22h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 10 Seller 1 1d 22h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 3 Seller 1 1d 22h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 2 Seller 1 1d 3h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 1 Seller 1 1d 2h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 6 Seller 1 1d 1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 6 Seller 1 22h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 7 Seller 1 2d 4h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 8 Seller 1 3d 2h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 15 Seller 1 3d
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 16 Seller 1 1d 22h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 2 Seller 1 1d 21h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Football 3 Seller 1 1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 8 Seller 1 2d 23h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Other 1 Seller 1 4d 19h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 1 Seller 1 3d 19h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 1 Seller 1 3d 18h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 3 Seller 1 3d 17h

[DalliLlama11]

just wanna say, this card is relisted by the account with now "2" feedback. different city in virginia but still says its in virginia, and the item description is the exact same format. shoutout to bo ppl that helped assure me of what i figured was the case.

[DalliLlama11]

and the buyers account has feedback as a buyer, all from the same account. intriguing. so just a headsup for ppl if u wanna block him or whatever, the ebay id is 11mvp23 and the side account is ejl-erl-m11az4