Red Grange/Chicago Bears/Historic Uniform Experts – Laundry Tag Real/Mistake?

[crac0018]

Please note: The purpose of this post is to gather objective and rational, logical thoughts. Please do not use this as a chance to interject any subjective, non-verifiable claims against Panini or as an outlet to dispense your hate and disgust towards Panini. Please, even if it’s determined Panini made a mistake, let’s keep this as civil as possible.

I’ve been watching these cards for some time now and have always had suspicions about the Red Grange laundry tag in it:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/(KGrHqR,!ioE9eOwfmnUBPppGyr0pw~~/s-l500.jpg
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/T2eC16FHJHEE9ny2p)RRBQRmw62cQw~~/s-l500.jpg

From what I can tell, it’s a Prestige Teams by Wilson laundry tag. However, this particular laundry tag may have only been used during the early-to-mid 1990’s (can anyone confirm this?). Red Grange played around the early 1930’s; most other laundry tags I've seen during this time have distinct differences from the Prestige tags used much later on. You can seen this in this example of a Wilson laundry tag from Mel Hein’s playing days (close to the same time frame Grange would have played):

http://i.ebayimg.com/05/!CDcCGVwBmk~$(KGrHqUOKj8E0vBj+H66BNOjfDiP6!~~_12.JPG

Looking at the Hein tag and comparing it to Grange’s, there are significant differences in the actual Wilson logo, text fonts used, and construction of the tag, as well as with the discoloration/deterioration. I know this isn't necessarily definitive, which is why I'm asking...

I haven’t been able to find a chronological history of the laundry tags that have been used by Wilson, but I've found other examples of their tags from different decades, which gives a sense of how much they've changed the tags through the years. For example, the one below shows how different the Wilson tags even in the 60’s (as with this Biletnikoff jersey) were compared to the Prestige Tags in the 90’s:

http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.com/ItemImages/000060/60958c_med.jpeg

Lot Detail - 1965-66 Fred Biletnikoff Oakland Raiders Game Worn Home Jersey w/ customized neck slit & team repairs (MEARS A9.5) (http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.com/1965_66_fred_biletnikoff_oakland_raiders_game_worn-lot60958.aspx)

Other examples:

http://lionsfan71.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/young4.jpg
(From a 1972 Adrian Young Lions Jersey: 1972 Adrian Young (http://lionsfan71.tripod.com/id65.html))

vs. a very similar tag to the Grange in question:

http://lionsfan71.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/graybill4.jpg.w300h225.jpg
(from a 1991 Mike Graybill Lions Jersey: 1991 Mike Graybill (http://lionsfan71.tripod.com/id149.html))

Keep in mind, I do not know what the back of the card reads, so I can’t confirm if Panini’s guarantee states all the enclosed material as “game-used” or something significantly vaguer, like "event-worn" (perhaps Red Grange wore an early 90’s Bears uniform with the Prestige Tag at an "event" just prior to his death in 1991?)

One more bit of information, here are four of the five cards from this print run:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w136/labguy42/Jim%20Thorpe%20cards/005_zpsf0a9fc13.jpg
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6-kAAOxyTMdTNzpM/s-l500.jpg
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/(KGrHqR,!ioE9eOwfmnUBPppGyr0pw~~/s-l500.jpg
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/T2eC16FHJHEE9ny2p)RRBQRmw62cQw~~/s-l500.jpg

As you see, all of the above examples have the laundry tag material inserted as the Grange jersey piece (thus I believe the tag was inserted by Panini and not altered by a collector/re-seller). The card does not specifically mention laundry tag used (on the front, anyway) AND it appears to be from the non-prime version of the Hall of Fame Materials subset, which makes sense with the materials used for Baugh and Thorpe (Clark's material looks like it could be from a helmet). This particular card does not appear in the checklist for the prime version of the HOF Quad Materials, which is where I would think laundry tags would be reserved for. Again, Panini has been known in the past to inadvertently insert prime patches in non-prime cards (and non-prime pieces in prime cards).

I've already submitted questions to Panini in the past regarding these cards, which have gone unanswered. Any information or thoughts which either helps to confirm or debunk the authenticity of this tag is appreciated!

[Clarka3]

have you asked the sellers for scans of the back of the card?

[crac0018]

have you asked the sellers for scans of the back of the card?

I know two of the three sellers, as we're all local. Unfortunately, they're not interested in assisting me, as they know it's not in their favor to do so. I asked the third seller and was ignored.

[Clarka3]

I know two of the three sellers, as we're all local. Unfortunately, they're not interested in assisting me, as they know it's not in their favor to do so. I asked the third seller and was ignored.

well i would assume that's your answer right there. if the language on the back of the card was favorable (read: authentic game used) then they'd be telling you in a heartbeat i would think.

[MeetJSquared]

Have you been able to find back scans of any of the other cards in the subset? I know the others are (relatively) modern players and are /25, but the quad with Grange doesn't have a Prime version, so it makes sense that they could have a Prime jersey piece.

[crac0018]

well i would assume that's your answer right there. if the language on the back of the card was favorable (read: authentic game used) then they'd be telling you in a heartbeat i would think.

And, yes, that would normally answer my question. Here's the issue: One of the sellers has told me the back states "game-worn material" but won't provide a picture of it and won't address any more questions from me on the card. I can assume the backs states it's not game-worn. However, I've seen the back of the other cards in the same set and they do state "game-worn."

At this point, I tend to think the back of the card guarantees game-worn, which is why I've gone down this rabbit hole.

[crac0018]

Have you been able to find back scans of any of the other cards in the subset?

I have and others do state game-worn.

I know the others are (relatively) modern players and are /25, but the quad with Grange doesn't have a Prime version, so it makes sense that they could have a Prime jersey piece.

Absolutely, and Panini has done that in the past. But that specific tag for Grange doesn't make sense to me...it seems like a tag from the 90's.

[MeetJSquared]

It's curious that your two local sellers have it up at ~$2K while the Maryland seller has it for $600 BIN, albeit with a terrible listing title.

It's disturbing that they aren't helping and would lead me to believe that it has other language rather than 'game-worn/game-used'. Since the card is serial numbered much lower than the others in the set, it's definitely plausible that it doesn't follow any of the same patterns, i.e. not game-worn, not prime, etc. Also seems a bit odd that they would use laundry tags for Grange while the rest are other jersey/relic pieces.

[hairyangryfella]

Pretty sure 1930s labels wouldn't tell you to 'machine wash' like that... It's either Panini inserting the wrong piece by mistake, it being a non-game worn jersey as they like to do, or someone has misrepresented the piece to them when they acquired it for use. Unfortunately you're not likely to find an answer either way.

[crac0018]

It's curious that your two local sellers have it up at ~$2K while the Maryland seller has it for $600 BIN, albeit with a terrible listing title.

It's disturbing that they aren't helping and would lead me to believe that it has other language rather than 'game-worn/game-used'. Since the card is serial numbered much lower than the others in the set, it's definitely plausible that it doesn't follow any of the same patterns, i.e. not game-worn, not prime, etc. Also seems a bit odd that they would use laundry tags for Grange while the rest are other jersey/relic pieces.

The two local guys are buds with one another. One guy owns a LCS and the other is a young guy with a lot of money to spend and a lot more to resell. They're both shrewd businessmen. They also know what I'm doing and they've decided to ignore me for better or worse. My guess is if you innocently asked to see the back of the card, at least one of them would probably share it (please, feel free to ask one of them - just don't mention my username or anything about the authenticity of that tag). Then we'd have our answer - and if it does state "game-used/worn" then my original question is still at hand.

[Jackg1980]

An article on halls of shame provides info that the Jim Thorpes are fake. I ask Panini multiple times about that article and they have yet to respond.

[crac0018]

Pretty sure 1930s labels wouldn't tell you to 'machine wash' like that... It's either Panini inserting the wrong piece by mistake, it being a non-game worn jersey as they like to do, or someone has misrepresented the piece to them when they acquired it for use. Unfortunately you're not likely to find an answer either way.

Thanks for the feedback - this, too, is my line of thinking. If this is the consensus, then I'll feel better about passing on this card. But also disappointed that it's not a Grange laundry tag I can add to the collection.

[ejs23]

I know two of the three sellers, as we're all local. Unfortunately, they're not interested in assisting me, as they know it's not in their favor to do so. I asked the third seller and was ignored.

Good research. I'd say it's telling that they refuse to share the back of the card with you. Also seems like a bad idea to sell a high end card like that without sharing all the information with potential buyers.

Just looking at the card, without all your good information, I wouldn't think that's a game used tag from his playing days.

[freethrowtommy]

Hmm... interesting thread and great research. Just the words "machine wash" give it away pretty easily.

Given the facts that you have presented, and the fact that Grange died in 1991, I imagine that Panini somehow got a hold of some of some personal clothing that he wore late in life maybe?

It can't possibly have been game worn.

[bigaust001]

Pretty sure 1930s labels wouldn't tell you to 'machine wash' like that... It's either Panini inserting the wrong piece by mistake, it being a non-game worn jersey as they like to do, or someone has misrepresented the piece to them when they acquired it for use. Unfortunately you're not likely to find an answer either way.

Beat me to the punchline!!!:)!:)!

But yes, I assume that this is from an old-timers day jersey. Scans of the back are crucial.

[bigaust001]

I have a feeling that this was done after production, since Panini nor Donruss has never produced a Grange relic, other than helmet swatches.

[freethrowtommy]

Beat me to the punchline!!!:)!:)!

But yes, I assume that this is from an old-timers day jersey. Scans of the back are crucial.

That is a good point. He probably did participate in those old-timers games.

[bigaust001]

That is a good point. He probably did participate in those old-timers games.

One would think that he would have a jersey card out if this was the case, but instead, he only has helmet cards. The closest thing he has to a jersey is a helmet liner card.

[wju2004]

An article on halls of shame provides info that the Jim Thorpes are fake. I ask Panini multiple times about that article and they have yet to respond.

That, I believe, was the baseball pieces. Pretty sure the jacket pieces are real.

[Jackg1980]

That, I believe, was the baseball pieces. Pretty sure the jacket pieces are real.

I lost trust in almost everything out there labeled game worn. Panini ignores all my questions and will not even say they guarantee certain items.

Have you read the latest articles on Hauls of Shame and the Johnson case? It seems like something major is about to break.

[packman80]

Piece is way to white to be old. Look at the Mel Hein how it has yellowed over the years. No way a piece will be that white and be about 80 years old.

[pnft17]

It's too funny how people bend over backwards claiming something is real. It should not be the job of the collector to do this. If this old stuff was legit Panini UD Topps ect would be posting and showing all of it before it gets hacked up If you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on all this legit old school stuff why wouldn't you advertise the crap out of it. Reason why they keep it all quite on this stuff and be as vague as possible. Amazes me how gullable collectors are.

[glen87]

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/(KGrHqR,!ioE9eOwfmnUBPppGyr0pw~~/s-l500.jpg


Wilson 100 Year Timeline (http://www.wilson.com/history/)

it does appear wilson was using that "new" style "w" as early as 1938. i looked through a lot of the pages on this site, and the "w" varies from sport to sport in the 30's. i am by no means saying it is real, just throwing out this little piece of information. unfortunately, i could not find any jerseys in the slideshow,

[cking]

I ask Panini multiple times about that article and they have yet to respond.

I lost trust in almost everything out there labeled game worn. Panini ignores all my questions.

I am awaiting the excuses the Panini fan boys will come up with as to why Panini will not answer any questions regarding game used stuff.

Refusing to answer customers questions.....fantastic customer service:rolleyes::rolleyes:


It's too funny how people bend over backwards claiming something is real. It should not be the job of the collector to do this. If this old stuff was legit Panini UD Topps ect would be posting and showing all of it before it gets hacked up If you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on all this legit old school stuff why wouldn't you advertise the crap out of it. Reason why they keep it all quite on this stuff and be as vague as possible. Amazes me how gullable collectors are.

Post of the year right here. If they had nothing to hide then why not provide your customers the info on your game used items for them to research.

Panini is exercising its right to remain silent I see. That is what criminals do, I suppose.

Yes, fraud is a crime.

[freethrowtommy]

Please note: The purpose of this post is to gather objective and rational, logical thoughts. Please do not use this as a chance to interject any subjective, non-verifiable claims against Panini or as an outlet to dispense your hate and disgust towards Panini. Please, even if it’s determined Panini made a mistake, let’s keep this as civil as possible.

I am awaiting the excuses the Panini fan boys will come up with as to why Panini will not answer any questions regarding game used stuff.

Panini is exercising its right to remain silent I see. That is what criminals do, I suppose.

Yes, fraud is a crime.



That didn't take long.

[freethrowtommy]

Wilson 100 Year Timeline (http://www.wilson.com/history/)

it does appear wilson was using that "new" style "w" as early as 1938. i looked through a lot of the pages on this site, and the "w" varies from sport to sport in the 30's. i am by no means saying it is real, just throwing out this little piece of information. unfortunately, i could not find any jerseys in the slideshow,

You might be right about the new style logo, but I am pretty sure they didn't use machine washing back then yet.

[fullmetal]

Would a jersey from the 1920s (early 30s) have washing machine instructions? Washing machines in the home were just becoming common during this time frame, slowing during the Depression. Would clothing tags note machine washing instructions at that time period?

[crac0018]

Thanks all for the great insight. I feel better passing on the card knowing several others share the same suspicions as I do.

As for the sellers not sharing the card with me, just consider it a personal thing between me and them. If anyone here is so inclined to ask one of the sellers for a scan of the back of the card, I'm certain at least of the them would provide it. Again, I'd be surprised if it did NOT state "game worn/used" on the back of the card.

Hmm... interesting thread and great research. Just the words "machine wash" give it away pretty easily.

Given the facts that you have presented, and the fact that Grange died in 1991, I imagine that Panini somehow got a hold of some of some personal clothing that he wore late in life maybe?

It can't possibly have been game worn.

Thanks, and I agree the "machine wash" is pretty damning, BUT I didn't want to make any conclusions about the tag without some sort of consensus. It's important to me since I collect HOF/legend laundry tags, and this is certainly one I'd like to obtain if proven authentic. This is also not a cheap card...thankfully due diligence is proving to be prudent once again.


I have a feeling that this was done after production, since Panini nor Donruss has never produced a Grange relic, other than helmet swatches.

Wow, I did not know the only material Donruss/Panini used of Grange were swatches from the helmet. Did you specifically read this somewhere or were you able to determine this through your own observations of collecting?

I'm still not certain that it could have been done post-production, since someone would have needed to acquire at least four of the five cards and then sell them off inconspicuously. I know Dan has had his for sale for several years now (since just after Timeless Treasures released in 2011). AJ acquired his version a couple years later. The fourth version is actually in a Jim Thorpe Super Collection (I do not know where he bought his from). I'm still leaning towards Panini making a mistake and inserting someone else's laundry tag in there.


I lost trust in almost everything out there labeled game worn. Panini ignores all my questions and will not even say they guarantee certain items.

Have you read the latest articles on Hauls of Shame and the Johnson case? It seems like something major is about to break.

I casually read through Hauls of Shame, but I'm a skeptic. That guy comes off like he has an ax to grind, which turns me off. I'm all for investigative journalism, but there's a proper way to present your findings. I think he misses it.

As for Panini ignoring questions, I with you there - I've had my questions ignored as well.

Wilson 100 Year Timeline (http://www.wilson.com/history/)

it does appear wilson was using that "new" style "w" as early as 1938. i looked through a lot of the pages on this site, and the "w" varies from sport to sport in the 30's. i am by no means saying it is real, just throwing out this little piece of information. unfortunately, i could not find any jerseys in the slideshow,

Thanks for sharing that link! While it might not show the jersey tags, I did find the timeline and history of the company's advertisements to be full of interesting information. I love reading stuff like this. It reminds me of the old LIFE magazines from the 30's/40's my grandfather passed on to me.

[Jackg1980]

Thanks all for the great insight. I feel better passing on the card knowing several others share the same suspicions as I do.

As for the sellers not sharing the card with me, just consider it a personal thing between me and them. If anyone here is so inclined to ask one of the sellers for a scan of the back of the card, I'm certain at least of the them would provide it. Again, I'd be surprised if it did NOT state "game worn/used" on the back of the card.



Thanks, and I agree the "machine wash" is pretty damning, BUT I didn't want to make any conclusions about the tag without some sort of consensus. It's important to me since I collect HOF/legend laundry tags, and this is certainly one I'd like to obtain if proven authentic. This is also not a cheap card...thankfully due diligence is proving to be prudent once again.




Wow, I did not know the only material Donruss/Panini used of Grange were swatches from the helmet. Did you specifically read this somewhere or were you able to determine this through your own observations of collecting?

I'm still not certain that it could have been done post-production, since someone would have needed to acquire at least four of the five cards and then sell them off inconspicuously. I know Dan has had his for sale for several years now (since just after Timeless Treasures released in 2011). AJ acquired his version a couple years later. The fourth version is actually in a Jim Thorpe Super Collection (I do not know where he bought his from). I'm still leaning towards Panini making a mistake and inserting someone else's laundry tag in there.




I casually read through Hauls of Shame, but I'm a skeptic. That guy comes off like he has an ax to grind, which turns me off. I'm all for investigative journalism, but there's a proper way to present your findings. I think he misses it.

As for Panini ignoring questions, I with you there - I've had my questions ignored as well.



Thanks for sharing that link! While it might not show the jersey tags, I did find the timeline and history of the company's advertisements to be full of interesting information. I love reading stuff like this. It reminds me of the old LIFE magazines from the 30's/40's my grandfather passed on to me.

In the lastest article, I think he presented good facts and gave both sides of the story. A lot of smoke at R&R and certain PSA authenticator. I hope the FBI does conduct a full investigation. The sworn statement by Mrs. Burns is very interesting. It will have to do to court for all the evidence to come out.

Panini owes it to the hobby about what they know about fake game worn jerseys inserted in their products. They are hiding something.

[cking]

Why is it all of a sudden everyone wants us to keep quiet about Paninis use of fake material in cards?

We spend thousands of dollars on cards from this company, they have been proven to have used fake material, in the highest end football product of all time at that and we are not allowed to say anything about it anymore?

So basically, screw us, right?

This thread was made by the OP to get opinions on the authenticity of a product made by Panini.

Ok, if you want to keep this on topic, I will give my opinion. Its fake.

I come to this conclusion because the company who made this card has been caught red handed using fake material in other cards. Everything they make is questionable.

Kinda like the how the Police always check someones background before they pick them up, so they know what that person is capable of doing because they have done it in the past.

Well, in the past Panini has showed what they are capable of, thats for sure.

Everyone should read that article referenced in this thread. They are without a shadow of a doubt hiding something. And if you believe otherwise then you are a sucker who deserves what you get. Fake game used cards.

Carry on and god bless

[bigaust001]

Wow, I did not know the only material Donruss/Panini used of Grange were swatches from the helmet. Did you specifically read this somewhere or were you able to determine this through your own observations of collecting?



This was found out by first referencing worthpoint and then Beckett, all are helmet swatches.

[labguy42]

The back of the card says authentic game worn material guaranteed by Panini. No one contacted me on this card as suggested by the originator of the post? I am the Jim Thorpe collector who literally has hundreds and hundreds of the Thorpe cards as well. I have contacted Panini and get no response at all.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w136/labguy42/better%20condition/001_zpsulr68jat.jpg (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/labguy42/media/better%20condition/001_zpsulr68jat.jpg.html)

[freethrowtommy]

The back of the card says authentic game worn material guaranteed by Panini. No one contacted me on this card as suggested by the originator of the post? I am the Jim Thorpe collector who literally has hundreds and hundreds of the Thorpe cards as well. I have contacted Panini and get no response at all.


Thanks for posting this up!

Panini appears to owe everyone some answers on this.

Unrelated to this thread, do you have a link to your Thorpe collection? I would love to see your stuff.

[Jackg1980]

I think we need to mass email Sharp and demand answers. Also one of the questions is why are they ignoring are questions? That question must also be answered.

[Clarka3]

I think we need to mass email Sharp and demand answers. Also one of the questions is why are they ignoring are questions? That question must also be answered.

this is a fast-track to getting your email address blocked.

if you really want a response on something like this, go with a mass twitter campaign. Companies are forced to respond eventually if it is constantly brought up in public.

[sjim8660]

I don't know if this was mentioned previously, but it would be interesting to hear from Wilson on this matter. They could be the ones to give a for sure answer on how old the tag is.

[Jackg1980]

this is a fast-track to getting your email address blocked.

if you really want a response on something like this, go with a mass twitter campaign. Companies are forced to respond eventually if it is constantly brought up in public.

That could be good also. But if they block my email for asking legitimate questions, that could end up backfiring and will raise even more questions fir them to answer.

[golferphil]

It simply says game worn. Not game worn by Red Grange. I don't even buy cards anymore because it all such a crap shoot. Did the player actually sign the sticker? Did they wear that scrap of jersey in pre-season or regular season? It is all a scam anymore.

[freethrowtommy]

That could be good also. But if they block my email for asking legitimate questions, that could end up backfiring and will raise even more questions fir them to answer.

If they blocked your e-mail, you would never know it.

[fullmetal]

Could have been game worn by John Turner in a PeeWee football game or maybe even a church softball game in 2009.

[dolphinsdude]

There once was a time when card companies gave a crap.

http://img.comc.com/i/Football/2003/Donruss-Classics-/CM-19/Dan-Marino.jpg?id=5116b788-0250-4063-9dc4-98e0eecd3fa1&size=original&side=back (http://www.comc.com/Cards/Football/2003/Donruss_Classics_/CM-19/Dan_Marino/1150497)
2003 Donruss Classics [???] #CM-19 - Dan Marino /400
Courtesy of COMC.com (http://www.comc.com)

[freethrowtommy]

There once was a time when card companies gave a crap.

http://img.comc.com/i/Football/2003/Donruss-Classics-/CM-19/Dan-Marino.jpg?id=5116b788-0250-4063-9dc4-98e0eecd3fa1&size=original&side=back (http://www.comc.com/Cards/Football/2003/Donruss_Classics_/CM-19/Dan_Marino/1150497)
2003 Donruss Classics [???] #CM-19 - Dan Marino /400
Courtesy of COMC.com (http://www.comc.com)

I want the piece of jersey closest to the shaft.

[crac0018]

The back of the card says authentic game worn material guaranteed by Panini. No one contacted me on this card as suggested by the originator of the post? I am the Jim Thorpe collector who literally has hundreds and hundreds of the Thorpe cards as well. I have contacted Panini and get no response at all.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w136/labguy42/better%20condition/001_zpsulr68jat.jpg (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/labguy42/media/better%20condition/001_zpsulr68jat.jpg.html)

Thanks for posting the back of it. No, I never contacted you since you never had the card for sale. It never crossed my mind to contact you since my initial goal was to actually purchase one of these cards.

[Clarka3]

according to a cursory look through wikipedia, washing machines were used during the time frame the guy played. it is entirely possible that it is legit if we're all just basing it off of the "machine directions" on the tag.

[crac0018]

according to a cursory look through wikipedia, washing machines were used during the time frame the guy played. it is entirely possible that it is legit if we're all just basing it off of the "machine directions" on the tag.

An excellent point, and one I've previously given thought to: while washing machines were, in fact, around during that time I don't believe they were being used widespread and probably not available in a commercial application. I also don't believe garments at that time were being manufactured with the machine wash instructions. I base this on the language used on the other earlier laundry tags that only specify washing in luke warm water with mild soap, but make no mention of actual "machine" washing (for example, Biletnikoff's 60's jersey only mentions not using an automatic dryer, the only indication of a modern machine being available during that time).

[crac0018]

I don't know if this was mentioned previously, but it would be interesting to hear from Wilson on this matter. They could be the ones to give a for sure answer on how old the tag is.

This is an excellent suggestion, thanks! I'll be sure to spend a few minutes tomorrow looking for some Wilson contact info.

[Grid]

Honestly, most pre 1940's jerseys didnt even have tags. Of the ones did that had smaller company's, most likely local, make their jerseys for them. King O'Shea & Wilson were making equipment for the team around that time. Both were based in Chicago so it makes sense.

You can try searching major auction houses for pre 1940's game used jerseys of any team and you'll see what I mean.

But since jerseys were mostly bought as "blanks" and the fact that teams had master sewers on the payroll to attached tackle twill in team specific colors a lot of these tags were never even included or were replaced with "house tags".

In the case with the Chicago Bears around this era that house tag was "May & Halas" I have never seen a Wilson tag on an early Bears jersey. Doesnt mean it never happened I have just never seen it.

As for the "machine wash" this was unheard of. While washing machines were coming into style. Most clothes were made of light cotton. Early sports jerseys said, if they said anything at all, Dry Clean Only and that was it.

Grange played in 1925. That season the Bears had strips of leather on the front of their jerseys. Are there jersey cards (not helmet cards of his) with leather? If not it isnt from 1925. He playes again from 29-34. Jerseys alone from this era are very rare. A few years have never even been found in existence.

In the late 40-50's the Bears did wear Wilson tagged jerseys. The earliest Wilson tag I know of is on an undated Ed Sprinkle jersey
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/ItemImages/000057/45580i_lg.jpeg

Thats just what I know. Who am I? I'm a guy that personally owns over 400 pieces of Chicago Bears Game Worn memorabilia. Not including cards. I've collected the Bears exclusively for over 20 years.

Wilson Logo pre 1920's
http://www.wilson.com/history/img/decades/1910s/1910s_Logo_1.png?width=294

The logo on this particular card was in use in the mid 1930's. So it is possible that the font is correct. But keep in mind Wilson used that style logo for the next 75 years as well.

[Grid]

And just for fun. Wilson Prestige tags, like the one in the card, 1st appeared in 1986 MLB jerseys. The 1st date coding of a Prestige tag is August 1990. Red died in January of 91. Anyone can contact Wilson to verify anything I have written above.

It is 100% impossible for Grange to have worn this tag in a game. Maybe on the sidelines of a Bears game in 1990 at the age of 86 while suffering from Parkinson's disease? Who knows...

[Skootown]

Pretty sad that these companies think they can (and do) get away with stuff like this.

It'd be one thing if it still costs .50 for a pack of cards...

[Clarka3]

That could be good also. But if they block my email for asking legitimate questions, that could end up backfiring and will raise even more questions fir them to answer.


Right, but if you are attached to a large contingent of emails basically saying the same thing, they might be blocked out of spite.

[bigaust001]

Any updates on this??

[bigaust001]

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/donfan23/wilsonprimerexcerpt.jpg

Thought this might help... tag appears to be from 70-80's

[MeteoriteGuy]

I casually read through Hauls of Shame, but I'm a skeptic. That guy comes off like he has an ax to grind, which turns me off. I'm all for investigative journalism, but there's a proper way to present your findings. I think he misses it.

I am almost amazed anyone would take anything from that site as an article or information. Poorly investigated, lack of references and everything angled against 2-3 companies.

For example, how he usee endless references such as "an experienced collector" and the use of terms only a court can decide, as factual terms. (Not just the writing in question, but everything he writes).

I have been published over 100 times and would embarrassed to present anything like what is posted on that site with my name on it.

[crac0018]

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/donfan23/wilsonprimerexcerpt.jpg

Thought this might help... tag appears to be from 70-80's

That's fantastic! This is exactly what I was hoping to find. Is there anyway you can scan the entire timeline? I still think the tag is one of the Prestige tags.

As for an update, I wasn't able to find an email address for Wilson Sporting Goods. I did use their contact service form to chat with someone through their website, but she had no idea what I was asking for. She took my contact information and said someone would contact me, but I haven't heard anything yet.

[crac0018]

I am almost amazed anyone would take anything from that site as an article or information. Poorly investigated, lack of references and everything angled against 2-3 companies.

For example, how he usee endless references such as "an experienced collector" and the use of terms only a court can decide, as factual terms. (Not just the writing in question, but everything he writes).

I have been published over 100 times and would embarrassed to present anything like what is posted on that site with my name on it.

I agree with this. The goal of my original response was to be more diplomatic than antagonistic.

[bigaust001]

That's fantastic! This is exactly what I was hoping to find. Is there anyway you can scan the entire timeline? I still think the tag is one of the Prestige tags.

As for an update, I wasn't able to find an email address for Wilson Sporting Goods. I did use their contact service form to chat with someone through their website, but she had no idea what I was asking for. She took my contact information and said someone would contact me, but I haven't heard anything yet.

Unfortunately, I cannot. I can give you this:

Wilson Database (http://sportstaggingdatabase.yolasite.com/wilson.php)

[Grid]

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/donfan23/wilsonprimerexcerpt.jpg

Thought this might help... tag appears to be from 70-80's

Wrong. This is a "Prestige" tag. That wasnt used on a football jersey until 1990. Still damning on Leaf/Donruss and now Panini though...

[Clarka3]

Wrong. This is a "Prestige" tag. That wasnt used on a football jersey until 1990. Still damning on Leaf/Donruss and now Panini though...

isn't there a possibility it is from one of the old-timers/legends game jerseys?

[Grid]

isn't there a possibility it is from one of the old-timers/legends game jerseys?

This was talked about earlier in the thread. The 1st date coding of a Prestige tag is August 1990. Red died in January of 91. Not sure if an 87 year old running back on his death bed would be playing in a football game...

But just for fun if it was from a "Legends Event" it should say Event and not Game Worn.

[bewareof94]

Wrong. This is a "Prestige" tag. That wasnt used on a football jersey until 1990. Still damning on Leaf/Donruss and now Panini though...

How is this damning on DLP when they didn't even make the card?

[Grid]

How is this damning on DLP when they didn't even make the card?

Panini bought DLP in 2009. This is a 2011 card. Considering all of these players had jerseys cards with DLP from 09 and earlier it is not out of the realm of reasonable to think Panini produced a card using old swatch stock. Thats why I'm willing to implicate all parties.

If the swatch came from old DLP stock or a new Panini acquisition one thing is certain, it didnt come from Grange

[bewareof94]

Panini bought DLP in 2009. This is a 2011 card. Considering all of these players had jerseys cards with DLP from 09 and earlier it is not out of the realm of reasonable to think Panini produced a card using old swatch stock. Thats why I'm willing to implicate all parties.

If the swatch came from old DLP stock or a new Panini acquisition one thing is certain, it didnt come from Grange

I get what you're saying, I know Panini did use a lot of the old stock memorabilia stuff beginning in 2010 when they took over, however, DLP never acquired a Grange jersey, nor used one in cards.

They only obtained the Grange game-worn helmet, which they used for cards from 2002-2006, (not counting the 2 total cards, both 1/1s, in 2007 releases) when I'm assuming the swatches ran out. DLP never produced a Grange game-worn anything card in their final 2 years, (3 years, if we're not counting the 2 swatches used in 2007, again, both 1/1s). So, I think we're safe to lay this one entirely at the feet of Panini.

I've actually been following this thread, not really commenting yet, but I've been intrigued since I'm into the older, DLP game-worn cards from these types of players, and I've seen this card on eBay in the past and always wondered the same things as the OP and questioned the authenticity of the material, along with other cards Panini has produced of these players. I highly doubt the Grange game-worn helmet (which is the only confirmed piece of memorabilia ever put into cards) had that tag in/on it, so I believe that it's a fake piece of material that Panini threw into the card.

What sucks the most is that the swatches from Jim Thorpe/Sammy Baugh/Dutch Clark all look to be correct, authentic, old stock pieces from DLP (I've owned/own GU DLP cards with these pieces for all 3 players). It's just the Grange that is way off...

[Grid]

DLP never produced a Grange game-worn anything card in their final 2 years, (3 years, if we're not counting the 2 swatches used in 2007, again, both 1/1s). So, I think we're safe to lay this one entirely at the feet of Panini.



You seemed to have done the leg work on this. I'm perfectly fine switching my vote to "Blame Panini". But you do agree these swatches couldn't possibly be off a game worn jersey correct?

[bewareof94]

You seemed to have done the leg work on this. I'm perfectly fine switching my vote to "Blame Panini". But you do agree these swatches couldn't possibly be off a game worn jersey correct?

Absolutely....at least not a game-worn jersey of Red Grange.

I think Panini would have certainly let us all know if they had acquired a Grange game-worn jersey, and would have made more cards with it, as they did in 2010 with the Ernie Davis "all-star game worn jersey"...I just did a quick search of Beckett, and this is the only Grange "game-worn" card Panini has ever produced, along with the 1/1 "Classic Cut Materials" card also in 2011 Timeless Treasures; so they've made 6 total cards with this supposedly Red Grange-worn material.

[Skootown]

Just a spectator in this thread - but I gotta say I do NOT think Panini expects people to do their due dilligence on things like this.

They sure were wrong in this case. Good job everyone hunting all this info down.

[bigaust001]

Any info on what came of this? I'm honestly surprised this thread didn't get more interest.