Current Cy Young Rankings?

[Bars and Bar]

Below is mine... SP only

NL:

1) Greinke
2) Scherzer
3) Kershaw
4) DeGrom
5) Cole
6) Arrieta
.
.
.
7) Harvey

AL:

1) Gray
2) Price
3) Keuchel
4) Archer
5) Kazmir
6) Hernandez
7) Kluber
.
.
.
8) Santiago

[Homerun]

Chris Sale doesn't even make your top 8?

I get that he had 2 crummy starts in a row, but he still leads the AL in strikeouts. He should be in the group with Santiago at the very least IMO.

[Rangers09]

I think the top five in the AL could go in any order. I'm glad to see a guy like Kazmir that high even with 6 wins, as wins mean literally nothing. Personally, I think that ERA, Strikeouts/Walk, IP/Start, WHIP, and GB Percentage show the true dominance of a pitcher and the value to a team. And IP obviously, but that's assuming everyone is around the same. For the top AL Guys, here are the stats that I mainly look at:

NAME-ERA/K per Walk/IP per Start/WHIP

1. Gray-2.06/3.4/7.0/.96

2. Keuchel-2.40/3.67/7.2/1.01

3. Price-2.35/4.59/7.0/1.08

4. Archer-2.62/5.00/6.4/1.00

5. Kazmir-2.08/2.78/6.2/1.05

6. Hernandez-3.11/3.45/6.6/1.14

7. Kluber-3.46/5.64/7.2/1.083

8. Sale-3.52/6.64/6.8/1.08

9. Santiago-2.78/3.05/6.0/1.175

I will say that by the end of the season, Price may have moved ahead of Keuchel, but Gray will win. Obviously there are many more factors to consider when picking THE BEST pitcher in a season, but I believe that these ratios balance value to a team, command of the strike zone, and overall dominance.

[rustyisin]

I bet King Felix moves up the list on reputation with the Cy Young voters. Not a winner, but higher than 6th

[Rangers09]

Since I'm really bored, I'll do the same for the NL candidates as well

ERA/K per BB/IP per Start/WHIP

1. Greinke-1.71/5.04/6.9/0.85

2. Scherzer-2.44/8.30/7.0/0.87

3. DeGrom-2.13/5.92/6.7/.090

4. Kershaw-2.51/6.57/7.0/0.95

5. Arrieta-2.38/4.05/6.8/0.99

6. Cole-2.39/4.47/6.5/1.10

7. Harvey-2.76/4.23/6.7/1.02

8. Wacha-2.92/3.50/6.3/1.08

9. Martinez-2.57/2.57/6.2/1.28

The two Cardinals were included because it felt necessary to include a team that is five games above everyone else. I'm guessing that Greinke's ERA will begin to rise, Scherzer's and Kershaw's will fall, and we will have a much closer race by the end of the season. I still see Greinke winning though.

[Rangers09]

I bet King Felix moves up the list on reputation with the Cy Young voters. Not a winner, but higher than 6th

I agree. I think Felix will finish higher than sixth, as voters are a bit biased towards household names.

[death2redemptions]

NL
1. Greinke
2. Kershaw
3. Scherzer
4. Cole
5. Arrieta
6. deGrom
7. Bumgarner

AL
1. Gray
2. Keuchel
3. Sale
4. Price
5. Archer
6. Hernandez
7. Kluber

[jumbogorilla]

NL - either Cole for wins, Greinke for domination
AL - either Kuechel for funny name, Hernandez for reputation

[exitmusicblue]

For the AL, I think it's going to come down to Sonny and Keuchel, down to the wire... with Price as a dark horse if he lowers his WHIP enough.

Kaz is great and wins don't count much (see Felix's 13-12 WL Cy campaign), but just 6 wins this late in the season will be a hard hurdle to overcome if Sonny and Keuchel end up with similar stats across the board. Also, no CGs, to 3 each (2 shutouts) for Sonny and Keuchel.

[SethMurphy]

My votes at the end of the season I think will be Zack Greinke and David Price

[bwalter1]

If Astros make the playoffs I think Keuchel win it.

[death2redemptions]

If Astros make the playoffs I think Keuchel win it.

Team success generally doesn't matter with awards like Cy Young & ROY.

It does for the MVP award.

[exitmusicblue]

If Astros make the playoffs I think Keuchel win it.

Team success generally doesn't matter with awards like Cy Young & ROY.

It does for the MVP award.

Yep, just ask Felix.

As for Sale, I collect him a bit as well, and the consecutive meltdowns have been kinda worrisome. ERA too high to recover and win the Cy this season. Maybe working through minor issues?

[Wolves4Life]

Yep, just ask Felix.

Just ask Jose Fernandez when Kershaw won.

[exitmusicblue]

Just ask Jose Fernandez when Kershaw won.

Hahahaha... Kershaw had a sub-2.00 ERA in 2013 and 0.92 WHIP, against JoFer's 2.12 and 0.98 WHIP. Not close, but thanks for being you.

Ultimately, if Sonny falters, either Keuchel or Price can swoop in easy.

[no10pin]

Just ask Jose Fernandez when Kershaw won.

What was it that Fernandez did better than Kershaw that year again? Also, Fernandez finished 3rd in the voting.

[death2redemptions]

Just ask Jose Fernandez when Kershaw won.

1.83 ERA/232 SO/0.91 WHIP > 2.19 ERA/187 SO/0.98 WHIP

There is not a single stat that favors JoFer but at the same time I do realize who made this comment so it makes sense.

[stormshadow815]

Just ask Jose Fernandez when Kershaw won.

Thank you for the good laugh today. Monday is always rough, so its good to have a chuckle. :)!

[thehueys]

1) Cole
2) Scherzer
3) Geinke
4) Kershaw

[t206blogcom]

Scherzer for NL

[jstasyk1121]

AL

1. Gray
2. Kuechel
3. Price

only 3 i think in running...Felix is not having a season anywhere near these 3.

I also think Price wins this somewhat easily. I think TOR is gonna run down the division and he will be big part of that and that will be big voting topic.

NL

1. Grienke
2. Scherzer
3. DeGrom
4. Kershaw
5. Cole

I think only way Grienke wins is if he stays 1.70 or lower. If he hits 2.00 he falls out of top 3 probably. The other guys will be low 2s for ERA and have MUCH more impressive K rate/totals.

Ultimate guess right now is Price in AL for being the Ace they needed for big push and Scherzer wins in NL as Kersh/Grienke split some votes.

[BigEd]

ESPN's Cy Young Tracker (2015 MLB Baseball Cy Young Predictor - Major League Baseball - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/mlb/features/cyyoung)) has correctly predicted both league's CY winner for the past four years. They have Keuchel and Grienke as of right now.

[exitmusicblue]

The Tracker uses VB (12 points for team leading division)... gotten flak for that. It instantly drops Keuchel down to a distant 2nd if the Halos overtake the Astros for first, and it looks close (half a game back).

[californiakron]

I've got Sonny and Greinke firmly on top right now.:)!

[exitmusicblue]

I've got Sonny and Greinke firmly on top right now.:)!

Mr. Harpah in that avatar looking very swell in the hitter department :D

[death2redemptions]

ESPN's Cy Young Tracker (2015 MLB Baseball Cy Young Predictor - Major League Baseball - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/mlb/features/cyyoung)) has correctly predicted both league's CY winner for the past four years. They have Keuchel and Grienke as of right now.

I'm actually surprised that they have Keuchel on top. I mean, he's my guy but Gray has been better so far.

[californiakron]

Mr. Harpah in that avatar looking very swell in the hitter department :D

Haha just a bit longer to go....

If Burns miraculously wins ROY(unlikely) then I'd really be smiling:)!

[Bars and Bar]

Haha just a bit longer to go....

If Burns miraculously wins ROY(unlikely) then I'd really be smiling:)!


Very unlikely :D

[exitmusicblue]

I'm actually surprised that they have Keuchel on top. I mean, he's my guy but Gray has been better so far.

12 points in their formula for Houston being div leaders is why :D tmrw it could be Sonny if Houston loses and Halos win. More important what happens in the next month+...

Haha just a bit longer to go....

If Burns miraculously wins ROY(unlikely) then I'd really be smiling:)!

would be amazing... got like 5x return off of his black ref auto already, the lil train that could lol !

[chippv]

NL
Grienke
Cole
Scherzer
AL
Gray
Kuechel

[scotthenrichs]

Super dark horse for the NL : Francisco Rodriguez

Not that he has any chance to win, but deserves at least a few top 5 votes.

26/26 on saves and a 1.37 era.

[PejaD]

AL:
Gray
Keuchel
Price
Kazmir
King Felix
WC ~ Betances

NL:
Greinke
Scherzer
Arrieta
de Grom
Kershaw
WC ~ Wacha

[Bars and Bar]

Is this the closest set of CY races in recent years?

[chansen10]

DeGrom has to be right near the top.. But Kershaw still gets my vote :)

[Enryon]

I think it will come down to price and gray for the al. Price gets my nod because of the impact he has had for the blue jays.

[exitmusicblue]

Trump card for Sonny so far... WAR. Baseball Reference:

1. Trout (LAA) 6.9
2. Greinke (LAD) 6.9
3. Harper (WSN) 6.8
4. Goldschmidt (ARI) 6.7
5. Cain (KCR) 6.5
6. Gray (OAK) 6.4
7. Donaldson (TOR) 6.2
8. Machado (BAL) 5.8
9. Posey (SFG) 5.8
10. Crawford (SFG) 5.7

[jstasyk1121]

Trump card for Sonny so far... WAR. Baseball Reference:

1. Trout (LAA) 6.9
2. Greinke (LAD) 6.9
3. Harper (WSN) 6.8
4. Goldschmidt (ARI) 6.7
5. Cain (KCR) 6.5
6. Gray (OAK) 6.4
7. Donaldson (TOR) 6.2
8. Machado (BAL) 5.8
9. Posey (SFG) 5.8
10. Crawford (SFG) 5.7



The real trump card is that the Blue Jays are now winning the East and are like 15-1 since making deals or whatever....Price being a part of that is going to way overshadow S.Gray WAR number...i know CY doesnt swing on playoff/miss playoff like MVP does...but OAK being in last place and Price going to TOR and them going crazy and winning the Division is going to take him to the #1 spot.

And the numbers are pretty darn close to begin with...

if TOR stays hot they are gonna win both awards i think....i think Donaldson can win MVP and Price will win CYA...

[exitmusicblue]

The real trump card is that the Blue Jays are now winning the East and are like 15-1 since making deals or whatever....Price being a part of that is going to way overshadow S.Gray WAR number...i know CY doesnt swing on playoff/miss playoff like MVP does...but OAK being in last place and Price going to TOR and them going crazy and winning the Division is going to take him to the #1 spot.

And the numbers are pretty darn close to begin with...

if TOR stays hot they are gonna win both awards i think....i think Donaldson can win MVP and Price will win CYA...

See exhibit Felix Hernandez, Cy winner with a 13-12 record on a terrible Mariners squad...

Price needs a lower ERA and WHIP, period. If he wins in the end, he'll deserve it -- not because he got traded.

[jstasyk1121]

Degrom keeps this up and i think he might backdoor the NL award too...almost under 2.00era....whip is amazing 0.89...great k/bb numbers...and Mets are contending....

[rustyisin]

Price beats the NYY again for the 2nd time in a week and you'll have to switch him out with Sonny Gray

[jstasyk1121]

See exhibit Felix Hernandez, Cy winner with a 13-12 record on a terrible Mariners squad...

Price needs a lower ERA and WHIP, period. If he wins in the end, he'll deserve it -- not because he got traded.

you act like Gray is just blowing him away in those areas tho?

2.06 to 2.35

0.96 to 1.07

those are pretty close...

and when Felix won he was 2.27 with 250inn and 235k.....2nd place was Price that year who was almost half run higher in era...2.72 and had about 40inn less and under 190k......3rd was CC who was a 3.18era almost a full run higher....less inn...less k...

everyone goes to Felix winning....yea he won with a crap record on a crap team...but his stats were light years ahead of the next few guys!!!!


Gray is not light years ahead of anyone in anything....

he is leading era/whip....but not by some insane amount...

The felix argument works cuz the best guys on winning teams stats just werent that good...this year there are guys on much better teams with stats that are quite comparable....

[chansen10]

See exhibit Felix Hernandez, Cy winner with a 13-12 record on a terrible Mariners squad...

Price needs a lower ERA and WHIP, period. If he wins in the end, he'll deserve it -- not because he got traded.

Ahhhhhh Price and Gray aren't even that far off.. Fangraghs has Grays war significantly lower.. 13th for pitchers I think.. Kluber is silently having another fantastic year... I think it's way to close to tell whose the front runner at this point..

[exitmusicblue]

Let the Cy voter decide their fates, bros... chilllll. ;) Cali style baby !

[kinar]

I'm actually surprised that they have Keuchel on top. I mean, he's my guy but Gray has been better so far.
Keep in mind that their ratings is based on performances of previous winners and as such is reflective of how the voters feel. Not necessarily who should win based on stats and how the general consensus of fans feel.

They post the formula at the bottom of the page:
CYP: In The Neyer/James Guide To Pitchers -- co-authored by Bill James and ESPN.com's Rob Neyer presents a method, based on past results, to predict Cy Young balloting. This page provides an in-season snapshot of the Cy Young "race," as figured by the following formula: Cy Young Points (CYP) = ((5*IP/9)-ER) + (SO/12) + (SV*2.5) + Shutouts + ((W*6)-(L*2)) + VB (see below).

The felix argument works cuz the best guys on winning teams stats just werent that good...this year there are guys on much better teams with stats that are quite comparable....

And ^^ this ^^ is why the VB in their formula exists

[exitmusicblue]

Someone pinch me, are ppl actually even debating over Sonny in the Cy convo... :D Let it be a good race 'til the end. And hopefully again next season !

[Devi8or]

Felix is about to make his run.....get ready for it!!!

[stormshadow815]

Felix is about to make his run.....get ready for it!!!

The same could be said for Kershaw, its going to be a very interesting month and a half. :)!

[death2redemptions]

I think Matt Harvey will be a super dark horse and get some top 5 votes (but no 1st place votes).

[jstasyk1121]

The same could be said for Kershaw, its going to be a very interesting month and a half. :)!

Kershaw been making his run for two months now!! haha...i think Kershaws biggest hurdle is Grienke and them splitting votes.

[Bars and Bar]

Kershaw been making his run for two months now!! haha...i think Kershaws biggest hurdle is Grienke and them splitting votes.

Why would split votes only affect them?

[jstasyk1121]

Why would split votes only affect them?

Cuz they are teammates I mean...so the voters out west will be split on them...that's what I meant...

[JustinVerlander07]

Kershaw in the NL, Keuchel in the AL.

[MBumgarner40]

It would be awesome for Sonny to win Cy, but I also remember what a great improvement he has made since last season (and considering this is only his 2nd full season).

[Bars and Bar]

I think the NL is now:

1) Greinke
2) Kershaw
3) DeGrom
4) Arrieta
5) Scherzer

[pcfriarmet]

NL

Grienke
Degrom
Kershaw
Scherzer
Arrietta

Al

Price
Sonny
Kazmir
Kuechel
Sale

[Bars and Bar]

RIP Scherzer CY Chances

[death2redemptions]

RIP Scherzer CY Chances

Looking more and more likely that it'll definitely be a Dodger winning the award.

[centereacan06]

Unless Greinke really collapses or Kershaw/deGrom go on a historic run, it's all Zack's. As a Mets fan, I'd obviously love to see deGrom win it, but Greinke has just been too good.

[billbanning]

NL

Grienke
Degrom
Kershaw
Scherzer
Arrietta

Al

Price
Sonny
Kazmir
Kuechel
Sale

I'd put Felix above Sale and Kuechel but that's just me

[Skipscards]

NL: Zack Greinke
AL: Wade Davis

At least I'd love that to be the winners. Ha!

[MBumgarner40]

I'd put Felix above Sale and Kuechel but that's just me

I get putting him above Sale, but Keuchel? He's probably in the top 3 or maybe 2

[MBumgarner40]

As of now I think it's:

1. Sonny
T2. Keuchel
T2. Price
3. Kazmir
4. Archer
5. Felix
6. Sale
7. Davis

[Thommy]

Today:

NL:

1. Greinke
2. Kershaw
3. DeGrom
4. Cole
5. Scherzer

AL

1. Gray
2. Keuchel
3. Price
4. Archer
5. Felix





End of season predictions:

NL
1. Kershaw
2. Greinke
3. Scherzer
4. Cole
5. DeGrom

AL
1. Price
2. Keuchel
3. Gray
4. Felix
5. Davis

[jstasyk1121]

seeing kazmir on a couple of these is rather confusing to me. he is having a nice year...his ERA is glowing...and 2nd in the AL....other than that...his stats are nowhere near the other top options....he is 6-7 which w-l doesnt mean much...but for a guy like him he would have to be like 15-3 right now to be in the discussion...

his k numbers are low...his innings count are low...im not a huge fan of WAR...but his sticks out....its 1.0!!!! so again...no he is not in the running and might gain some top 5-7 votes solely based on his low era...other than that he is a rather weak candidate...

[jstasyk1121]

just looked...Kazmir 1.0 WAR is tied for 68th in AL-only among just pitchers....JOHNNY CUETO also has a 1.0....he only made 3 starts in AL...haha

[Bars and Bar]

seeing kazmir on a couple of these is rather confusing to me. he is having a nice year...his ERA is glowing...and 2nd in the AL....other than that...his stats are nowhere near the other top options....he is 6-7 which w-l doesnt mean much...but for a guy like him he would have to be like 15-3 right now to be in the discussion...

his k numbers are low...his innings count are low...im not a huge fan of WAR...but his sticks out....its 1.0!!!! so again...no he is not in the running and might gain some top 5-7 votes solely based on his low era...other than that he is a rather weak candidate...

just looked...Kazmir 1.0 WAR is tied for 68th in AL-only among just pitchers....JOHNNY CUETO also has a 1.0....he only made 3 starts in AL...haha

Kazmir has a 1.0 WAR with the ASTROS. 4.1 WAR for the year.

[jstasyk1121]

Kazmir has a 1.0 WAR with the ASTROS. 4.1 WAR for the year.

this looks better...i just went to espn clicked stats...clicked war...they show his full season stats and show 1.0....and show cueto right under him with only his 3 kc starts and 1.0

price is off as well...show 3.7 but he has another 1.2 from his few TOR starts...so he is right under 5.0 for year....so clearly espn not 100% accurate in this stat...

[chansen10]

Today:

NL:

1. Greinke
2. Kershaw
3. DeGrom
4. Cole
5. Scherzer

AL

1. Gray
2. Keuchel
3. Price
4. Archer
5. Felix





End of season predictions:

NL
1. Kershaw
2. Greinke
3. Scherzer
4. Cole
5. DeGrom

AL
1. Price
2. Keuchel
3. Gray
4. Felix
5. Davis

No love for corey kluber?

[jstasyk1121]

Kluber been pretty good again...but 8-12 is tough to overcome when others having better years are like 11-5 and what not...if he was 12-8 instead maybe he would be in the convo a bit more....im a big fan tho...he will get another 250k season...not a fluke to me at all

[Thommy]

No love for corey kluber?

Nah, he's great, I have him on my fantasy team, but 12 losses to lead the league and a mid 3s ERA for a losing team won't cut it. He'd have to be pretty remarkable for the rest of the year to crack my top 5. I still think he's a top 15 pitcher though, just not so far this season.

[seabass97166]

1) Grienke
2) Kershaw
3) Degrom

1)Kuechel
2) Gray
3) Price

[JustinVerlander07]

Kluber been pretty good again...but 8-12 is tough to overcome when others having better years are like 11-5 and what not...if he was 12-8 instead maybe he would be in the convo a bit more....im a big fan tho...he will get another 250k season...not a fluke to me at all

Corey Kluber has the worst run support in the AL I believe, how on earth can you use win-loss records to judge pitchers?

[Thommy]

Corey Kluber has the worst run support in the AL I believe, how on earth can you use win-loss records to judge pitchers?

Because they're being paid to win games

[death2redemptions]

I feel the same way about Kluber. I don't put much emphasis on W/L record myself but 12 losses won't help his cause since some voters do put emphasis on W/L record. Not many pitchers win the Cy Young with a losing record & I don't know if any pitcher has won the award when leading the majors in losses. I still think he'll receive top 5 votes due to his huge strikeout numbers & his adequate ERA/FIP/WHIP.

However, if he finishes the rest of the season going 6-1 with an ERA around 2 he could have a chance.

[Thommy]

A good example of why I think win-loss is important

Keuchel's numbers are definitely better than Shelby Miller's, but it's not significant. He has an ERA that is about a tenth of a run lower than Miller's, half a strikeout more per 9. So then why has Keuchel had so much of a better year? He has come up big when the Astros need him to. His performance in big games against LA, Oakland, and Texas (4-1) have been significant for the Astros. Miller on the other hand has consistently blown seventh and six inning leads, and has struggled to hold leads since May. Sure he's been great, but he hasn't been nearly as valuable as Keuchel. Nobody's arguing that Yordano Ventura is better than Shelby Miller, but being able to perform when you're needed is at least for me a big part of pitching.

[JustinVerlander07]

Because they're being paid to win games

A good example of why I think win-loss is important

Keuchel's numbers are definitely better than Shelby Miller's, but it's not significant. He has an ERA that is about a tenth of a run lower than Miller's, half a strikeout more per 9. So then why has Keuchel had so much of a better year? He has come up big when the Astros need him to. His performance in big games against LA, Oakland, and Texas (4-1) have been significant for the Astros. Miller on the other hand has consistently blown seventh and six inning leads, and has struggled to hold leads since May. Sure he's been great, but he hasn't been nearly as valuable as Keuchel. Nobody's arguing that Yordano Ventura is better than Shelby Miller, but being able to perform when you're needed is at least for me a big part of pitching.

Keuchel, Kluber, Miller or anyone else doesn't control the run support they recieve.

Stop.

[Thommy]

Keuchel, Kluber, Miller or anyone else doesn't control the run support they recieve.

Stop.

A. Miller does
B. They do control how many runs they give up when their team is up by 2 in the seventh. Or how much they leave up to mediocre sixth and seventh inning RP.

[death2redemptions]

A good example of why I think win-loss is important

Keuchel's numbers are definitely better than Shelby Miller's, but it's not significant. He has an ERA that is about a tenth of a run lower than Miller's, half a strikeout more per 9. So then why has Keuchel had so much of a better year? He has come up big when the Astros need him to. His performance in big games against LA, Oakland, and Texas (4-1) have been significant for the Astros. Miller on the other hand has consistently blown seventh and six inning leads, and has struggled to hold leads since May. Sure he's been great, but he hasn't been nearly as valuable as Keuchel. Nobody's arguing that Yordano Ventura is better than Shelby Miller, but being able to perform when you're needed is at least for me a big part of pitching.

Keuchel pitches for the AL, if he pitched in the NL like Miller it would be even lower. On top of that...

FIP Keuchel 2.74 > Miller 3.27
WHIP Keuchel 1.01 > Miller 1.17
IP Keuchel 171.2 > Miller 145
SO Keuchel 150 > Miller 118
CG Keuchel 3 > Miller 2
SO/W Keuchel 3.78 > Miller 2.46
WAR Keuchel 5.6 > 4.0

Can't find a single stat where Miller is comparable to Keuchel except shutouts.

[jstasyk1121]

Corey Kluber has the worst run support in the AL I believe, how on earth can you use win-loss records to judge pitchers?

i didnt use win/loss to judge him...im saying everyone who votes will!! i dont care if he was 2.40era with 200k and a whip of .95....if he finishes year 10-16 or something he isnt winning...period!!

he is having a solid year...which i said as much...and i said if he was 12-8 instead of 8-12 im sure he would atleast be in the discussion....

[Rangers09]

Keuchel pitches for the AL, if he pitched in the NL like Miller it would be even lower. On top of that...

FIP Keuchel 2.74 > Miller 3.27
WHIP Keuchel 1.01 > Miller 1.17
IP Keuchel 171.2 > Miller 145
SO Keuchel 150 > Miller 118
CG Keuchel 3 > Miller 2
SO/W Keuchel 3.78 > Miller 2.46
WAR Keuchel 5.6 > 4.0

Can't find a single stat where Miller is comparable to Keuchel except shutouts.

Miller is putting together a very nice season, but apparently a 2.48 ERA in the NL doesn't constitute a top-5 Cy Young finish now due to all of the other great candidates. While I agree that Wins and Losses mean NOTHING (not even sure if they are counted into a player's WAR), it is one of the first numbers available for most pitchers, and appears to be a very easy way to judge a player at face value.

According to the uneducated baseball fan, more wins mean a player is better. And while this is generally true, it is almost always more of a correlation instead of causation. Pitchers are essentially independent from the team they are on. While some teams have valuable fielders like Kiermaier, Crawford, or Simmons, team defense usually evens out for MLB teams in the long run.

Also, an argument could be made for NL pitchers having the ability to affect their run support, but a guys like Kershaw or Scherzer could strike out every single at bat and nobody would care.

[chansen10]

Nah, he's great, I have him on my fantasy team, but 12 losses to lead the league and a mid 3s ERA for a losing team won't cut it. He'd have to be pretty remarkable for the rest of the year to crack my top 5. I still think he's a top 15 pitcher though, just not so far this season.

Not a great W/L, but he's still be a top 8 pitcher this year. 2nd in war amongst all pitchers.. Behind the one and only Kershaw. I'm just surprised how many people are overlooking Kluber. He's averaging about 7 and 2/3 innings per outing. He's ahead of Felix and Archer on my list

[jstasyk1121]

Not a great W/L, but he's still be a top 8 pitcher this year. 2nd in war amongst all pitchers.. Behind the one and only Kershaw. I'm just surprised how many people are overlooking Kluber. He's averaging about 7 and 2/3 innings per outing. He's ahead of Felix and Archer on my list

2nd in fangraphs......15th!! in b-ref WAR...id say somewhere in middle...but 15th is more accurate than 2nd...id say he is still a top 10 or so guy this year...but there are just way too many guys having great seasons..

[hohlernr]

Although I'm a Kluber and Cleveland fan, I realize that he has to put up ridiculous numbers the rest of the way to have a chance. He has to finish clearly ahead in most categories to get votes. Unfortunately the team is basically out of playoff contention and its easier to put up good numbers when there's essentially no pressure on you.

[death2redemptions]

2nd in fangraphs......15th!! in b-ref WAR...id say somewhere in middle...but 15th is more accurate than 2nd...id say he is still a top 10 or so guy this year...but there are just way too many guys having great seasons..

That's because fangraphs judges pitchers based on FIP and b-ref goes by ERA. Not saying one or the other is right.

[chansen10]

2nd in fangraphs......15th!! in b-ref WAR...id say somewhere in middle...but 15th is more accurate than 2nd...id say he is still a top 10 or so guy this year...but there are just way too many guys having great seasons..

Not saying he should win it just think he's getting over looked. I'm not a bref guy, but klubers a top 10 pitcher this year. Archer doesn't go deep enough into games imo to win it.

[jstasyk1121]

That's because fangraphs judges pitchers based on FIP and b-ref goes by ERA. Not saying one or the other is right.

yea i dont think one is more right than the other...kind of the problem i have with WAR in general is that two diff sites have there own way to calculate and one has this guy as basically the best SP in the AL and the other has him 15th overall...that is not a small difference...its a huge gap

the WAR stat for me is weighted too heavily by alot of people and this is a reason that i dont think it should be. 2nd/15th using same stat...seems silly to me

[awz50]

Vote Wade Miley for CY young 2015.....;)

[jstasyk1121]

Not saying he should win it just think he's getting over looked. I'm not a bref guy, but klubers a top 10 pitcher this year. Archer doesn't go deep enough into games imo to win it.

Kluber is a workhorse no doubt...has about 25inn more than Archer so far...but at same time you see that Archer has same amount of K's in those 25 less innings...which is dominant considering Kluber is a k machine himself...and Archer is almost 3/4 of a run lower in ERA...lower whip...both teams are not playoff bound so neither can use that...

I like Kluber way more than Archer but if the vote was today im sure 95% of the ballots would have Archer ahead of Kluber

[chansen10]

Kluber is a workhorse no doubt...has about 25inn more than Archer so far...but at same time you see that Archer has same amount of K's in those 25 less innings...which is dominant considering Kluber is a k machine himself...and Archer is almost 3/4 of a run lower in ERA...lower whip...both teams are not playoff bound so neither can use that...

I like Kluber way more than Archer but if the vote was today im sure 95% of the ballots would have Archer ahead of Kluber

This isn't a Archer vs Kluber argument. I stated that Archer doesn't pitch enough into games to win it. Archers brilliant but to be an ace you need to pitch deep into ball games.

[Bars and Bar]

RIP King Felix's slim CY chances

[SportsAutoFreak]

Remember when Joe Kelly said he'd win it?

[awz50]

RIP King Felix's slim CY chances

The red sox are pooping on him

[jstasyk1121]

RIP King Felix's slim CY chances

Seems like as good as he is he has these massive blowup games more often than other top guys...seems like 3rd-4th time this yr he got crushed early...crazy to still be mid 3s era...

[MBumgarner40]

Seems like as good as he is he has these massive blowup games more often than other top guys...seems like 3rd-4th time this yr he got crushed early...crazy to still be mid 3s era...

That's because he has spaced out those rough outings otherwise his era would be well over 4

[jason122883]

This year is Felix's worst in a long time. I feel he has regressed mentally. When he first came up, if he got rattled, or frustrated, he became very hittable after that. He has definitely shown his frustration on the mound more this year, than I can remember in many years. He has never had this many terrible games in one season

[Homerun]

Even though his peripherals are worse, I'd take Sale over Keuchel anyday. Sale is far more dominant most of the time and Keuchel benefits a lot from having a good team behind him whereas Sale doesn't.

[Bars and Bar]

Even though his peripherals are worse, I'd take Sale over Keuchel anyday. Sale is far more dominant most of the time and Keuchel benefits a lot from having a good team behind him whereas Sale doesn't.

If you want to win you'd take Keuchel. He's the left-handed Greinke.

[JustinVerlander07]

Even though his peripherals are worse, I'd take Sale over Keuchel anyday. Sale is far more dominant most of the time and Keuchel benefits a lot from having a good team behind him whereas Sale doesn't.

Keuchel has been better this season, don't be a homer.

[awz50]

Even though his peripherals are worse, I'd take Sale over Keuchel anyday. Sale is far more dominant most of the time and Keuchel benefits a lot from having a good team behind him whereas Sale doesn't.

Homer.Homeer.Homer

[Skipscards]

Homer.Homeer.Homer

Homer.Homeer.Homer.Hosmer!

[death2redemptions]

Keuchel has the better ERA, will go deeper into the game and the ability to induce double plays but Sale has the better FIP and ability to strikeout more batters.

Both are great in their own rights but I'd give the (very) slight edge to Keuchel simply because the ERA is significantly lower.

[Homerun]

If you want to win you'd take Keuchel. He's the left-handed Greinke.
How did you come to that conclusion? And how would you be able to prove that?
Keuchel has been better this season, don't be a homer.
He's only been better in a few categories. Sale is far better than him in a few.
Homer.Homeer.Homer
What's a homeer?
Keuchel has the better ERA, will go deeper into the game and the ability to induce double plays but Sale has the better FIP and ability to strikeout more batters.

Both are great in their own rights but I'd give the (very) slight edge to Keuchel simply because the ERA is significantly lower.
I disagree. Sale can go 9 whenever you need him to. And it's not really fair to judge him based on ERA, as he had 2 awful starts which made it about a run higher than it should be. It's like King Felix. His ERA should be no higher than 2.75 ish if you've seen him at all this season, but he's had 2 or 3 awful starts which inflated it by a run.

[Bars and Bar]

HOMERun, Keuchel has been better. I don't think it's even an argument.

5.6 WAR > 2.6 WAR.

[MBumgarner40]

HOMERun, Keuchel has been better. I don't think it's even an argument.

It's not, there is no argument

[Homerun]

HOMERun, Keuchel has been better. I don't think it's even an argument.

5.6 WAR > 2.6 WAR.

To be fair, you're a Keuchel/Astros homer too. But I see what you're saying. It's just a crime that me that Sale falls under the radar each and every single season. He's so good year in and year out that he deserves way, way, way more credit than he is given.

[Bars and Bar]

To be fair, you're a Keuchel/Astros homer too. But I see what you're saying. It's just a crime that me that Sale falls under the radar each and every single season. He's so good year in and year out that he deserves way, way, way more credit than he is given.

I love Chris Sale! :flex:

[death2redemptions]

I disagree. Sale can go 9 whenever you need him to. And it's not really fair to judge him based on ERA, as he had 2 awful starts which made it about a run higher than it should be. It's like King Felix. His ERA should be no higher than 2.75 ish if you've seen him at all this season, but he's had 2 or 3 awful starts which inflated it by a run.

Can't judge a pitcher on what they might do, only what they have done when it comes to winning awards and Keuchel has 3 complete games, while Sale only has 1. There is no doubt Sale has the ability to, as he led the AL in complete games in 2013. Keuchel led the majors last year. They both have the ability to go deep into games but Keuchel has averaged 7 IP (170.1 IP) per game and Sale 6.2 IP per game (150.1 IP).

As for the comment on his ERA, that is preciously the reason why I mentioned Sale has the better FIP. Both of them have great FIP's but Keuchel has benefited from better defense on his team, although not by much. I know your comment wasn't about him winning Cy Youngs but voters put way more emphasis on ERA than FIP.

HOMERun, Keuchel has been better. I don't think it's even an argument.

5.6 WAR > 2.6 WAR.

To be fair to Homerun, if going by fangraphs WAR:

Sale 4.8 WAR > Keuchel 4.7 WAR

[Bars and Bar]

RIP Chris Archer's slim CY chances

[Jakester27]

RIP Chris Archer's slim CY chances

Leads the league in ks...before today 2nd in whip and 8th in era, along with second in ks to bbs...a bunch of bloop singles this game...he will be back

[Bars and Bar]

Leads the league in ks...before today 2nd in whip and 8th in era, along with second in ks to bbs...a bunch of bloop singles this game...he will be back

Back next year? Maybe.

[MBumgarner40]

Leads the league in ks...before today 2nd in whip and 8th in era, along with second in ks to bbs...a bunch of bloop singles this game...he will be back

He doesn't go deep enough into games like Sonny, Keuchel, or Price. And even though W-L doesn't really matter, if he looses some more starts, that will slim his chances even more if he ends up with a 12-15 record

[SportsAutoFreak]

I think Scherzer has dropped stock.

[exitmusicblue]

Hello from S. Korea ! Felix is now out for the count...

[jstasyk1121]

He doesn't go deep enough into games like Sonny, Keuchel, or Price. And even though W-L doesn't really matter, if he looses some more starts, that will slim his chances even more if he ends up with a 12-15 record

He has same inning count as sonny...in 2 more starts...give sonny 7ip for those 2 so both have 25gs...and sonny has him by 15inn...which amounts to like 1.5 outs more per game...it's not some crazy thing where archer is avg under 6inn/gm and the other 3 are all over 7inn/gm...

[chansen10]

He has same inning count as sonny...in 2 more starts...give sonny 7ip for those 2 so both have 25gs...and sonny has him by 15inn...which amounts to like 1.5 outs more per game...it's not some crazy thing where archer is avg under 6inn/gm and the other 3 are all over 7inn/gm...

I'm not sure what you don't understand but you can't be an ace if you only go about 6 1/3 innings a game on average. Archer is great but he hasn't shown the ability to pitch deep into games on a consistent basis. in 13 of his 25 starts he hasn't made it to the 7th inning. I'm not sure why as I don't follow the rays.

[jbmets95]

Shocked deGrom isn't a clear clear cut 2nd behind Greinke... Has been completely dominant with the 2nd best ERA and WHIP
He still flys under the radar even after the all star game

[Jakester27]

Call me crazy but ks show how many bats you miss (which shows how nasty you are) personally I think with sonny grays incredibly low k/9, he will eventually come back to earth and finish with over a 3 ERA...contact pitchers rarely keep up a pace like this

[MBumgarner40]

Call me crazy but ks show how many bats you miss (which shows how nasty you are) personally I think with sonny grays incredibly low k/9, he will eventually come back to earth and finish with over a 3 ERA...contact pitchers rarely keep up a pace like this

Keuchel isn't a strikeout pitcher either but they've been dominating the entire year

[Bars and Bar]

Keuchel isn't a strikeout pitcher either but they've been dominating the entire year

Gray is on pace for 187 SO's and Keuchel is on pace for 209 SO's. A lot of pitchers would love those numbers!

[MBumgarner40]

Gray is on pace for 187 SO's and Keuchel is on pace for 209 SO's. A lot of pitchers would love those numbers!

Yeah, it's not like they're terrible numbers lol. I mean they're 6th and 10th in AL strikeouts

[brownbear299]

A good example of why I think win-loss is important

Keuchel's numbers are definitely better than Shelby Miller's, but it's not significant. He has an ERA that is about a tenth of a run lower than Miller's, half a strikeout more per 9. So then why has Keuchel had so much of a better year? He has come up big when the Astros need him to. His performance in big games against LA, Oakland, and Texas (4-1) have been significant for the Astros. Miller on the other hand has consistently blown seventh and six inning leads, and has struggled to hold leads since May. Sure he's been great, but he hasn't been nearly as valuable as Keuchel. Nobody's arguing that Yordano Ventura is better than Shelby Miller, but being able to perform when you're needed is at least for me a big part of pitching.

I thought I'd look into this a little bit, because I dont know of any stat that reflects how a pitcher performs as the game progresses, IE when a pitcher throws 6 shutout innings, then giving up 5 runs in the 7th (like a blown save, but more like a blown win). it seems like the kind of stat where someone claims to have seen a pitcher so many times in a season, that they know firsthand how that pitcher has really performed. and without a stat, maybe hearsay would be the best evaluation. maybe there is such a stat (pitcher performance as less outs are available for his own team to win) but i dont know of it. i just know that i always hear people ask "have YOU seen so-and-so pitch this year? because IVE seen 8 of his starts so I WOULD KNOW". ive watched all of arrieta's starts this year, so i know how he's been doing. but i havent watched all of degrom's, so how can i compare the two?

anyway, Shelby Miller has the 2nd worst run support in MLB this season. the braves have lost seven games this year where Miller allowed 2 runs or less, and theyve lost 5 games where he allowed one run or less. In (8) of Miller's losses, the braves have scored one run or zero runs. the braves have lost (6) games where Miller gave up between 3-5 runs.

So it looks like Miller "not coming up big" essentially means he allowed any amount of runs. The only games where he "gave up big runs late" in the 6/7/8 innings, were games where he allowed two runs or less over at least six innings. This means I'm evaluating Miller as a pitcher who, when he gives up more than 2 ER, is having a bad start, and that loss is totally on him.

Miller has done this (and lost) six times. The braves have 64 losses.

Also, in those (7) starts where the Braves lost and Shelby allowed 2 ER or less, Miller allowed a total of (8) runs in those seven starts, and the bullpen allowed a total of (23) runs after he left those games. Not counting runs that the bullpen gave up that were charged to Miller.

Overall, it looks like all but six of the Braves' losses when Miller started have been due to everybody on the team not named Shelby Miller.

EDIT: Miller's intradivision ERA is 2.20. Keuchel's is 2.10. Keuchel has been better than Miller against his own division/in situations where a win gets you that much closer to the playoffs. But by a .1 ERA. I wouldnt call that the difference between clutch and not clutch.

[Bars and Bar]

RIP C-Mart's chances

[SportsAutoFreak]

The Cubs are doing a magnificent job boosting Sale's chances.

[death2redemptions]

Chris Sale really helped his chances today! 15 k's in 7 scoreless IP. He is back to leading the majors in strikeouts again.

11-7 3.32 ERA 1.04 WHIP 157.1 IP/208 SO

IMO he's definitely top 3 in the AL.

Gray, Keuchel, Sale. Could make a case for each one of them.

[ChiSox22]

Chris Sale really helped his chances today! 15 k's in 7 scoreless IP. He is back to leading the majors in strikeouts again.

11-7 3.32 ERA 1.04 WHIP 157.1 IP/208 SO

IMO he's definitely top 3 in the AL.

Gray, Keuchel, Sale. Could make a case for each one of them.

Sale has been amazing, unfortunately in his non quality start outings, he has gotten lit up , 6-9 runs given up
He would need to go on another really good run to beat keuchel though who has been better overall

[death2redemptions]

Sale has been amazing, unfortunately in his non quality start outings, he has gotten lit up , 6-9 runs given up
He would need to go on another really good run to beat keuchel though who has been better overall

:eek::eek::eek:

A White Sox fan who doesn't automatically think Sale is the unanimous Cy Young winner??? That's pretty refreshing to see another fan who isn't a complete homer.

I actually think he could have an outside chance at the Cy Young with his insane strikeout numbers if he could get his ERA under or near 3.00.

[Homerun]

:eek::eek::eek:

A White Sox fan who doesn't automatically think Sale is the unanimous Cy Young winner??? That's pretty refreshing to see another fan who isn't a complete homer.

I actually think he could have an outside chance at the Cy Young with his insane strikeout numbers if he could get his ERA under or near 3.00.

I never said that he was the unanimous Cy Young winner lol. I know I'm a homer, but you're a homer for the Braves, Exit is a homer for Sonny, Bars and Bar is a homer for Keuchel, etc...it's just a part of the game. There's no point in being a fan of anything in baseball if you're not passionate about your favorite teams/players.

[MBumgarner40]

I never said that he was the unanimous Cy Young winner lol. I know I'm a homer, but you're a homer for the Braves, Exit is a homer for Sonny, Bars and Bar is a homer for Keuchel, etc...it's just a part of the game. There's no point in being a fan of anything in baseball if you're not passionate about your favorite teams/players.

^This, it's only annoying when the player has no chance lol

[Bars and Bar]

Chris Sale is now my favorite for the next five seasons.

[fert360]

Bumgarner is sneaking into the top 5 now!!

[ChiSox22]

:eek::eek::eek:

A White Sox fan who doesn't automatically think Sale is the unanimous Cy Young winner??? That's pretty refreshing to see another fan who isn't a complete homer.

I actually think he could have an outside chance at the Cy Young with his insane strikeout numbers if he could get his ERA under or near 3.00.

Exactly what I said, IF he can get his era under 3 he has a legit chance. Needs another hot streak, he tends to wear down like he did for a small stretch recently

[MBumgarner40]

Bumgarner is sneaking into the top 5 now!!

As much as I would love to see that, it'll be an extreme long shot. Considering Greinke has an era below 2.00 as well as deGrom will be soon

[USAFDODGERS]

Bumgarner is sneaking into the top 5 now!!

Nahhhhh

Greinke
Kershaw/Degrom
Cole
Max (even with his recent struggles)

I also hate Bumgarner so yeah.

[exitmusicblue]

I never said that he was the unanimous Cy Young winner lol. I know I'm a homer, but you're a homer for the Braves, Exit is a homer for Sonny, Bars and Bar is a homer for Keuchel, etc...it's just a part of the game. There's no point in being a fan of anything in baseball if you're not passionate about your favorite teams/players.

I'm a homer for Sonny, yep, but he should only win Cy if he deserves it !

If he doesn't have best ERA/WHIP by season's end, give it to the SP who does. I'm satisfied as long as Sonny is in the running more seasons than not. :)!

[fert360]

Nahhhhh

Greinke
Kershaw/Degrom
Cole
Max (even with his recent struggles)

I also hate Bumgarner so yeah.

Grienke
Degrom
Kershaw
Bum
Cole

Is what I'm getting after the recent performances. My homerism put Bum over Cole but I for sure think Bum should be at the 5 now

[death2redemptions]

I never said that he was the unanimous Cy Young winner lol. I know I'm a homer, but you're a homer for the Braves, Exit is a homer for Sonny, Bars and Bar is a homer for Keuchel, etc...it's just a part of the game. There's no point in being a fan of anything in baseball if you're not passionate about your favorite teams/players.

lol, I wasn't even referring to you. Wasn't even referring to just Chris Sale or just White Sox fans.

I was referring to homers in general. The fact that a fan from a certain team doesn't automatically believe a player on his team is the best of the best when it comes to certain awards.

[CubKings]

Jake Arrieta.


Dude isn't getting the attention of the others, but over his last 10 starts or so, he has been just as good or better than the other guys.

[death2redemptions]

Jake Arrieta.


Dude isn't getting the attention of the others, but over his last 10 starts or so, he has been just as good or better than the other guys.

He's been great, I think when this thread was created I had ham projected for 5th but it's very possible he's a top 3 candidate.

[lambeauleap87]

You can be a homer and still be reasonable. Well, it's possible...some in this thread don't have the ability to do so.

If it's up to me, I'd give the Cy Young to Keuchel. But I also wouldn't be upset if someone like Sale, Gray, or Archer won. Similar to being glad Kluber won last year, but Felix would've been just as deserving.

[death2redemptions]

You can be a homer and still be reasonable. Well, it's possible...some in this thread don't have the ability to do so.

If it's up to me, I'd give the Cy Young to Keuchel. But I also wouldn't be upset if someone like Sale, Gray, or Archer won. Similar to being glad Kluber won last year, but Felix would've been just as deserving.

I think every hardcore fan of a certain team will have some level of bias toward their players. It's pretty much unavoidable.

It's not until the fan is so blinded by the love for their players that they refuse to listen to logic or pay attention to the stats that I consider them homers.

I actually believe that Sale makes a good case for Cy Young depending on how he follows up the remainder of the season so I wasn't trying to imply that Homerun was a homer. I was one of the few in agreement...well, at least after today's 15 strikeout game.

[Thommy]

Jake Arrieta.


Dude isn't getting the attention of the others, but over his last 10 starts or so, he has been just as good or better than the other guys.

Arrieta over his last 10:

1.52 ERA 67 Ks

Kershaw over his last 10:

1.44 ERA 93 Ks

Greinke over his last 10:

1.15 ERA 67 Ks

Arrieta's been great, in my opinion he's 5 in the race, but he has not been on Kersh or Greinke's level

[jstasyk1121]

Arrieta over his last 10:

1.52 ERA 67 Ks

Kershaw over his last 10:

1.44 ERA 93 Ks

Greinke over his last 10:

1.15 ERA 67 Ks

Arrieta's been great, in my opinion he's 5 in the race, but he has not been on Kersh or Greinke's level

such a moving stat...but if you admittedly cherry pick and instead of last 10...you use 2-11 of his recent starts he then is 1.23 era with 69k which is absolutely on there level...since 11 starts ago he had cg-so....

i think Arrieta been greatly overlooked this year...if all these guys keep it up one thing is true...about 5 guys are gonna feel robbed of a cy young award!!!

pretty crazy to think about that a guy who is 14-6 with a 2.48 era and a K/inn is probably about 6th right now in the Cy Young race....cuz i dont think G.Cole is any higher than 6th right now and could be 7th easily.

1. Greinke
2. DeGrom
3. Kershaw
4. Scherzer
5. Arrieta
6. Bumgarner
7. Cole

that is an insane top 7 for one year!!!! wow...pitching is dominating more than ever...

[Bars and Bar]

such a moving stat...but if you admittedly cherry pick and instead of last 10...you use 2-11 of his recent starts he then is 1.23 era with 69k which is absolutely on there level...since 11 starts ago he had cg-so....

i think Arrieta been greatly overlooked this year...if all these guys keep it up one thing is true...about 5 guys are gonna feel robbed of a cy young award!!!

pretty crazy to think about that a guy who is 14-6 with a 2.48 era and a K/inn is probably about 6th right now in the Cy Young race....cuz i dont think G.Cole is any higher than 6th right now and could be 7th easily.

1. Greinke
2. DeGrom
3. Kershaw
4. Scherzer
5. Arrieta
6. Bumgarner
7. Cole

that is an insane top 7 for one year!!!! wow...pitching is dominating more than ever...


I think as of now it is:

1. Greinke
2. Kershaw
3. DeGrom
4. Arrieta
5. Cole
6. Scherzer
7. Bumgarner

[pcfriarmet]

I think as of now it is:

1. Greinke
2. Kershaw
3. DeGrom
4. Arrieta
5. Cole
6. Scherzer
7. Bumgarner

This is mine except maybe a switch of Kershaw and DeGrom.

[MBumgarner40]

I think as of now it is:

1. Greinke
2. Kershaw
3. DeGrom
4. Arrieta
5. Cole
6. Scherzer
7. Bumgarner

Yeah I'd give Scherzer a slight edge on Bum because of his no-no

[Athey49]

Well if we're going with homer picks, I'm going with Phil Hughes:coffee::coffee:

[SportsAutoFreak]

Nahhhhh

Greinke
Kershaw/Degrom
Cole
Max (even with his recent struggles)

I also hate Bumgarner so yeah.

Where's Arrieta?

[jstasyk1121]

to me at best cole is like 6th....and at worst scherzer is still like 4th...even with his recent struggles he is still 2nd in league with 194k and his whip is still a crazy low 0.90...era has jumped up but still 2.73 which is very good....and he has a no-hitter this year which is a tie-breaker type of thing for me


cole is not top 5 in any of the standard stats except wins....and barely top 10 in a handful of the categories...
1st in wins-tie
10th in strikeouts
11th in whip
8th in war
6th in era
12th in innings-will prob be like 7th in this one after tonight

i cant put him ahead of any of greinke, degrom, kershaw, scherzer, arrieta...they all have been better to me...which is crazy cuz he is having a good year...

[Bars and Bar]

This is mine except maybe a switch of Kershaw and DeGrom.

I have DeGrom basically tied with Kershaw except I think the lead in IP and SO give Kershaw a slight edge.

Scherzer is falling fast.

Bumgarner is rising fast.

[jstasyk1121]

I have DeGrom basically tied with Kershaw except I think the lead in IP and SO give Kershaw a slight edge.

Scherzer is falling fast.

Bumgarner is rising fast.

bumgarner this week was just insane...have him on fantasy team...scored 101 points...era under 3 now...his k/bb numbers are quietly awesome...

not sure he can do enough to get to top 3 let alone winning...

Max is falling fast....but still top 4 i think...falling fast but he was fairly clear #1 choice about a month ago...that whole team is falling fast tho!!! Harper losing his massive lead on MVP too...Washington is horrible right now...

[Kent Clements]

Nahhhhh

Greinke
Kershaw/Degrom
Cole
Max (even with his recent struggles)

I also hate Bumgarner so yeah.

Thats fine. Bum will just take another Championship ring :)!

[SaleSuperFan]

Thats fine. Bum will just take another Championship ring :)!

Giants aren't even making the playoffs...much less winning a championship. MadBum is an insane pitcher and has been even more insane in the playoffs; however, I'm sick of people using rings as an evaluation of players. It's just a silly comeback...

[COEFOR]

Giants aren't even making the playoffs...much less winning a championship. MadBum is an insane pitcher and has been even more insane in the playoffs; however, I'm sick of people using rings as an evaluation of players. It's just a silly comeback...

Giants have a better chance than most teams right now. Are you jelly because the player you "super collect" hasn't received the same attention much less be on a team to sniff the playoffs? Silly come back, I know.

[Bars and Bar]

DeGrom and Kershaw were a wash yesterday.

[grandmasterPRA]

NL:

1. Z. Greinke
2. J. DeGrom
3. C. Kershaw
4. J. Arrieta
5. M. Harvey
6. S. Miller
7. M. Scherzer
8. G. Cole
9. C. Martinez
10. M. Wacha
Honorable Mention. M. Bumgarner

AL:

1. S. Gray
2. D. Keuchel
3. J. Cueto
4. D. Price
5. S. Kazmir
6. C. Archer
7. H. Santiago
8. D. Salazar
9. M. Estrada
10. C. Sale
Honorable Mention. Odorizzi

[Wrightfan85]

NL:
1. Kershaw (It's just so unfair to be this good year after year.)
2. Arietta
3. deGrom
4. Grienke
5. Scherzer

AL:
1. Keuchel
2. Sale
3. Kluber
4. Archer
5. Price

[jstasyk1121]

NL:

1. Z. Greinke
2. J. DeGrom
3. C. Kershaw
4. J. Arrieta
5. M. Harvey
6. S. Miller
7. M. Scherzer
8. G. Cole
9. C. Martinez
10. M. Wacha
Honorable Mention. M. Bumgarner

AL:

1. S. Gray
2. D. Keuchel
3. J. Cueto
4. D. Price
5. S. Kazmir
6. C. Archer
7. H. Santiago
8. D. Salazar
9. M. Estrada
10. C. Sale
Honorable Mention. Odorizzi

1. Shelby Miller has a sparkling ERA but he also has like 5 wins...and wins may be a crazy stat to everyone in the world....except the people that actually vote. And he doesnt really K anyone either compared to others. He is 17th in just the NL in K's.

2. Johnny Cueto has about 4 starts in the AL. His NL stats do not come with him for awards season.

[jstasyk1121]

NL:
1. Kershaw (It's just so unfair to be this good year after year.)
2. Arietta
3. deGrom
4. Grienke
5. Scherzer

AL:
1. Keuchel
2. Sale
3. Kluber
4. Archer
5. Price

my kinda ballot there! have the "favorites" at 4th and not listed!!! that should get another page on this thread easy!

[SaleSuperFan]

Giants have a better chance than most teams right now. Are you jelly because the player you "super collect" hasn't received the same attention much less be on a team to sniff the playoffs? Silly come back, I know.

I was actually referring to the ridiculous Kershaw v. MadBum debate....Kershaw is light years above MadBum no matter how bad his few playoff starts have been. MadBum going off a few weeks in the postseason doesn't boost him over Kershaw's insane numbers the past 4 years. But since you brought it up....the lack of media attention Sale gets is a crime. Being on a horrible team shouldn't be a penalty to the 1-2 players on each of said horrible teams who have awesome numbers. Sad thing is Sale will never even get a shot to prove how good he could be in the postseason because the Sox prefer to implode every year.

[COEFOR]

I was actually referring to the ridiculous Kershaw v. MadBum debate....Kershaw is light years above MadBum no matter how bad his few playoff starts have been. MadBum going off a few weeks in the postseason doesn't boost him over Kershaw's insane numbers the past 4 years. But since you brought it up....the lack of media attention Sale gets is a crime. Being on a horrible team shouldn't be a penalty to the 1-2 players on each of said horrible teams who have awesome numbers. Sad thing is Sale will never even get a shot to prove how good he could be in the postseason because the Sox prefer to implode every year.

I agree.:)

[enbambam6986]

http://sportscardalbum.com/c/ei884s94.jpeg?0

[jstasyk1121]

http://sportscardalbum.com/c/ei884s94.jpeg?0

crazy stat...but to be fair...Kershaw last yr had 198.1inn so he was only 5 outs from achieving this as well....

[SaleSuperFan]

http://sportscardalbum.com/c/ei884s94.jpeg?0

I know close doesn't count but in '13 Sale pitched 214.1 innings, had 226 K's, and 46 BB. It's a strange put together stat but still impressive if DeGrom can get it. The number of incredible pitchers in their low-to-mid 20s is mind blowing

[SaleSuperFan]

crazy stat...but to be fair...Kershaw last yr had 198.1inn so he was only 5 outs from achieving this as well....

Lol we both pointed out the strangeness of the stat at the same time

[Kent Clements]

Giants aren't even making the playoffs...much less winning a championship. MadBum is an insane pitcher and has been even more insane in the playoffs; however, I'm sick of people using rings as an evaluation of players. It's just a silly comeback...

Just a FYI, he has THREE Championship rings :)!

[jstasyk1121]

just looking and only went back 1 yr....Price demolished that just last year....248inn 271k...38bb...

[SaleSuperFan]

Just a FYI, he has THREE Championship rings :)!

Thanks, we got that bud.

[jstasyk1121]

just looking and only went back 1 yr....Price demolished that just last year....248inn 271k...38bb...

and in '13 Wainwright did it....clearly that guy got his info wrong...or there is some other filter that he didnt post...maybe a sub-2.00 era as well was supposed to be listed??


*edit...it has to be also with an ERA under 2.00....i went back to like 2011 and found like 5-6 guys who did 200/200/40....halladay, c.lee x2, price, wainwright

[Bars and Bar]

Phil Hughes was 14 K's away last year.

[enbambam6986]

Yea it must be under 2era. Here's another tweet from that guy

http://sportscardalbum.com/c/1xeap9m6.jpeg?0

[jstasyk1121]

Phil Hughes was 14 K's away last year.

right...and another 5-10 guys who ended at like 41-45bb over last 4yrs ...

[jstasyk1121]

Yea it must be under 2era. Here's another tweet from that guy

http://sportscardalbum.com/c/1xeap9m6.jpeg?0

not even the same names as other tweet...what is this guy posting!! haha

[enbambam6986]

not even the same names as other tweet...what is this guy posting!! haha

Lol a lot has changed since his last post

[Homerun]

NL:

1. Z. Greinke
2. J. DeGrom
3. C. Kershaw
4. J. Arrieta
5. M. Harvey
6. S. Miller
7. M. Scherzer
8. G. Cole
9. C. Martinez
10. M. Wacha
Honorable Mention. M. Bumgarner

AL:

1. S. Gray
2. D. Keuchel
3. J. Cueto
4. D. Price
5. S. Kazmir
6. C. Archer
7. H. Santiago
8. D. Salazar
9. M. Estrada
10. C. Sale
Honorable Mention. Odorizzi

You think that Marco #@#@#@#@ing Estrada is better than Chris Sale? What are you smoking?

Sale might not be the favorite to win but he sure would be ranked ahead of Estrada, Salazar, Santiago, Kazmir, and probably Archer too.

[Bars and Bar]

You think that Marco #@#@#@#@ing Estrada is better than Chris Sale? What are you smoking?

Sale might not be the favorite to win but he sure would be ranked ahead of Estrada, Salazar, Santiago, Kazmir, and probably Archer too.

Sale is 4 or 5 for me at the moment.

[enbambam6986]

I think his first tweet was complete wrong lol

[Homerun]

Sale is 4 or 5 for me at the moment.

I'd tend to agree. My unbiased list for the AL is:

1. Gray
2. Keuchel
3. Price
4. Sale
5. Kluber
6. Archer
7. Kazmir
8. Hernandez
9. Santiago
10. Estrada

[Bars and Bar]

I could see Buehrle, Carrasco, and Salazar in the Top 10.

[death2redemptions]

Hopefully Keuchel can help build his case tonight.

A really good start would also greatly benefit my fantasy team.

[Homerun]

Hopefully Keuchel can help build his case tonight.

A really good start would also greatly benefit my fantasy team.

I hope that he gets rocked. :devil:

[MBumgarner40]

I hope that he gets rocked. :devil:

Me too:)!:devil:. Here's to hoping that Sonny and Sale will finish in the top 3 by the season's end

[Homerun]

Me too:)!:devil:. Here's to hoping that Sonny and Sale will finish in the top 3 by the season's end
Something about Keuchel just bugs the hell out of me. I think it's his beard. He looks like a douche. I don't even know how he can pitch well with that rats nest on his face.

[death2redemptions]

I hope that he gets rocked. :devil:

Me too:)!:devil:. Here's to hoping that Sonny and Sale will finish in the top 3 by the season's end

No way that's happening, he's pitching at home and he's never lost at home this year because he's got all the bearded dudes in Keuchel's Korner cheering him on!

[MBumgarner40]

No way that's happening, he's pitching at home and he's never lost at home this year because he's got all the bearded dudes in Keuchel's Korner cheering him on!

Didn't the Rays get like 6 runs off Kazmir the other day?

[death2redemptions]

Didn't the Rays get like 6 runs off Kazmir the other day?

Not sure, I don't follow Kazmir.

[darealstunna]

Price
and
Greinke

[death2redemptions]

IMO the AL is going to come down to Keuchel, Sale or Gray.

[Jakester27]

Sale honestly doesn't have a chance...I'd say ERA is what determines who wins Cy young 85% of the time...a 3.32 ERA just won't do it for him...I personally feel it should be him and kershaw as the 2 winners right now as FIP has to be the most spot on stat (Sabermetric or not) there is...Kershaw is 1st and Sale is 2nd...unfortunately (not saying ERA isn't important) but Sonny Gray who I think is good but also is the most lucky pitcher I've ever seen, is going to win due to his substantially low ERA and unless he gets it in the 2.50+ range there won't even be other considerations...same goes for Greinke (if he gets closer to 2 where degrom is.)

[exitmusicblue]

Sonny ain't lucky with the MLB-worst defense behind him and a last place offense...

Loving this race, whatever the outcome !!

[Jakester27]

Sonny ain't lucky with the MLB-worst defense behind him and a last place offense...

Loving this race, whatever the outcome !!

Semiens pretty horrible

[Jakester27]

Surprisingly (since I do feel gray is lucky) he is only 4th in BABIP...I get he allows weak contact but that also shows he catches more breaks then most too, it will come back around

[exitmusicblue]

Surprisingly (since I do feel gray is lucky) he is only 4th in BABIP...I get he allows weak contact but that also shows he catches more breaks then most too, it will come back around

Enh, 4th works for me, BABIP/FIP don't fully reflect things like Sonny buckling down with runners on base (something Keuchel also is very good at), big part of why the ERA is as low as it is...

We can sabermetric things to death Billy Boy style or just enjoy one of many damned fun races :)! what a season !

[Jakester27]

Enh, 4th works for me, BABIP/FIP don't fully reflect things like Sonny buckling down with runners on base (something Keuchel also is very good at), big part of why the ERA is as low as it is...

We can sabermetric things to death Billy Boy style or just enjoy one of many damned fun races :)! what a season !

Both are great races, every start could make or break the contenders!

[exitmusicblue]

Both are great races, every start could make or break the contenders!

Darned tootin' ! :flex:

[grandmasterPRA]

You think that Marco #@#@#@#@ing Estrada is better than Chris Sale? What are you smoking?

Sale might not be the favorite to win but he sure would be ranked ahead of Estrada, Salazar, Santiago, Kazmir, and probably Archer too.

Better ERA, Better BA against, W/L is about the same. WHIP isn't very far off. And pitches in more of a hitters ballpark than Sale. I only have him slightly above Sale. Not saying he is a better pitcher, but I think he is having a slightly better year. Also every single player you named has a better ERA than Sale...

[jstasyk1121]

Better ERA, Better BA against, W/L is about the same. WHIP isn't very far off. And pitches in more of a hitters ballpark than Sale. I only have him slightly above Sale. Not saying he is a better pitcher, but I think he is having a slightly better year. Also every single player you named has a better ERA than Sale...

no...just no....he has 120ip....barely lower era...but almost 40inn less work!

also a big stat that does matter to voters...K's....Sale has more than Estrada and Odorizzi COMBINED!!!!....estrada has 95k/40bb....Sale has 208k/32bb

[grandmasterPRA]

no...just no....he has 120ip....barely lower era...but almost 40inn less work!

also a big stat that does matter to voters...K's....Sale has more than Estrada and Odorizzi COMBINED!!!!....estrada has 95k/40bb....Sale has 208k/32bb

Batters are only hitting .210 against Estrada this year. He is having a really good season. I personally have never cared about K's. I mean you can let up 4 runs in an inning and still get 3 k's. I'll never understand the obsession with them, but you are correct voters do care a lot about them. I do think Sale will finish higher than Estrada, and he is a better pitcher. This is just my personal rankings on how I feel they are doing this season. Sale has underperformed in my opinion.

[jstasyk1121]

Batters are only hitting .210 against Estrada this year. He is having a really good season. I personally have never cared about K's. I mean you can let up 4 runs in an inning and still get 3 k's. I'll never understand the obsession with them, but you are correct voters do care a lot about them. I do think Sale will finish higher than Estrada, and he is a better pitcher. This is just my personal rankings on how I feel they are doing this season. Sale has underperformed in my opinion.

yea and they are hitting .224 vs sale....and sale has a lower obp, slg, ops against than estrada...so every stat except for the avg sale is lower.....

also Estrada is #1 in babip which is .231 and leads to believe he has been extremely lucky so far....his career number is about .270....sale on other hand has been if anything a bit unlucky since his career babip is .290 and this year its up at .317


basically for me at almost every stat i look at i think Sale is clearly ahead or since he has 40 inn more i put more weight behind his stats....and Sale is leading the whole league in some things...the only thing estrada is leading in is the luck-oriented babip.

to me what i mean is Sale's 3.32 era over 160ip is better than 3.20 over 120ip...

[jstasyk1121]

i think the obsession with K's is that it is the pitcher taking the defense out of the equation...strikeout is better than a grounder to 3rd cuz 7% of the time or whatever that grounder will lead to an error or a hit or bad throw...or quick runner beats it out....you strike him out and it eliminates all of that....and Sale is the best at it in all of baseball.

his k/9 rate is #1 and his k/bb ratio is also #1 which is even more impressive!!

[grandmasterPRA]

yea and they are hitting .224 vs sale....and sale has a lower obp, slg, ops against than estrada...so every stat except for the avg sale is lower.....

also Estrada is #1 in babip which is .231 and leads to believe he has been extremely lucky so far....his career number is about .270....sale on other hand has been if anything a bit unlucky since his career babip is .290 and this year its up at .317


basically for me at almost every stat i look at i think Sale is clearly ahead or since he has 40 inn more i put more weight behind his stats....and Sale is leading the whole league in some things...the only thing estrada is leading in is the luck-oriented babip.

to me what i mean is Sale's 3.32 era over 160ip is better than 3.20 over 120ip...

Very fair points. Like I said, Sale is a better pitcher. I just tend to put the MOST emphasis on ERA. At the end of the day, I don't care about how many people you strike out, or how unlucky you are in terms of balls in play. I just care about how many runs you are letting score because that is how you win games. I'm sure Estrada will stop being "lucky" eventually, but for now his luck has me rating him higher. If I was to base my list on talent then Sale would be top three. I'm looking at results this year and Sale doesn't have great results. You do bring up very valid points though

[Kent Clements]

Giants aren't even making the playoffs...much less winning a championship. MadBum is an insane pitcher and has been even more insane in the playoffs; however, I'm sick of people using rings as an evaluation of players. It's just a silly comeback...

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it so. Because I know when the new season is beginning in March/April I'm hoping that my teams middle infielder will lead the league in HBP.

I want my team to win the World Series !!

[Homerun]

Better ERA, Better BA against, W/L is about the same. WHIP isn't very far off. And pitches in more of a hitters ballpark than Sale. I only have him slightly above Sale. Not saying he is a better pitcher, but I think he is having a slightly better year. Also every single player you named has a better ERA than Sale...

Batters are only hitting .210 against Estrada this year. He is having a really good season. I personally have never cared about K's. I mean you can let up 4 runs in an inning and still get 3 k's. I'll never understand the obsession with them, but you are correct voters do care a lot about them. I do think Sale will finish higher than Estrada, and he is a better pitcher. This is just my personal rankings on how I feel they are doing this season. Sale has underperformed in my opinion.

Very fair points. Like I said, Sale is a better pitcher. I just tend to put the MOST emphasis on ERA. At the end of the day, I don't care about how many people you strike out, or how unlucky you are in terms of balls in play. I just care about how many runs you are letting score because that is how you win games. I'm sure Estrada will stop being "lucky" eventually, but for now his luck has me rating him higher. If I was to base my list on talent then Sale would be top three. I'm looking at results this year and Sale doesn't have great results. You do bring up very valid points though
I mean I understand where you're coming from but I'd still take Sale 100/100 times over Estrada and it isn't a debate. I think you could make a poll on here asking which pitcher people would rather have on their team and Sale would get 95% or more of the vote.

His ERA is higher, but he still isn't having a bad season. He's second in all of baseball in K's, leads the AL in FIP, and leads baseball in K/9 and K/BB ratio, not to mention he has a 3 WAR. If that's a bad season, then I don't know what to say.

[SaleSuperFan]

Very fair points. Like I said, Sale is a better pitcher. I just tend to put the MOST emphasis on ERA. At the end of the day, I don't care about how many people you strike out, or how unlucky you are in terms of balls in play. I just care about how many runs you are letting score because that is how you win games. I'm sure Estrada will stop being "lucky" eventually, but for now his luck has me rating him higher. If I was to base my list on talent then Sale would be top three. I'm looking at results this year and Sale doesn't have great results. You do bring up very valid points though

If you want to take a fair look at ERA, also realize that 22 of his 58 ERs (nearly 40%) came from 3 outings. Take out his 3 horrendous implosions of 7-8 ERs each game and his ERA recalcs to 2.25. I don't think Sale deserves the Cy Young this year - you can't give up those massive onslaughts; however, if you take those 3 awful games out, he has had an incredible season.

[death2redemptions]

Sale may not have a great ERA (it's still not bad either) but he actually leads the league in FIP which means he's been very unlucky thanks to terrible defense. Unfortunately voters pay way more attention to ERA than they do FIP.

[JackThree]

Chris Sale should win the AL Cy Young. Why? Besides his numbers, look at the team stats behind him. White Sox defense has been at the bottom all season in baseball and their offense is just as bad.

[Jakester27]

Archer can't go deep into games

[awz50]

Wade Miley cough cough ;)

[SaleSuperFan]

Wade Miley cough cough ;)

Maybe with half the ER and BB, double the K's, and some shavings off his WHIP and FIP ;)

[MBumgarner40]

Chris Sale should win the AL Cy Young. Why? Besides his numbers, look at the team stats behind him. White Sox defense has been at the bottom all season in baseball and their offense is just as bad.

Well I could say the same thing about Sonny. The A's defense is the WORST in baseball, and that was shown his last start when they lost 4-2 and gave up 3 unearned runs. Their offense isn't that great either

[Thommy]

Well I could say the same thing about Sonny. The A's defense is the WORST in baseball, and that was shown his last start when they lost 4-2 and gave up 3 unearned runs. Their offense isn't that great either

to be fair, he did let up a home run that didn't count against his ERA because there had been an error earlier that inning. Not exactly good for him.

[MBumgarner40]

to be fair, he did let up a home run that didn't count against his ERA because there had been an error earlier that inning. Not exactly good for him.

Yeah that's what I was saying. 2 outs, routine ground ball to Sogard and then looses it under his glove. Shoulda won that game 2-1 but oh well hopefully he pitches well tmrw

[chansen10]

Archer can't go deep into games

He did last night but has been able to for half is his previous 24 starts. Like I said no knock on archer he's a fantastic pitcher he just wasn't pitching deep enough into Games to win the award. If he was averaging 7ip a start than he'd certainly be at the front of my list

[jstasyk1121]

He did last night but has been able to for half is his previous 24 starts. Like I said no knock on archer he's a fantastic pitcher he just wasn't pitching deep enough into Games to win the award. If he was averaging 7ip a start than he'd certainly be at the front of my list

all of 3 guys are averaging 7ip/start in the AL.....three!!!

Kluber
Kuechel
Price

[exitmusicblue]

all of 3 guys are averaging 7ip/start in the AL.....three!!!

Kluber
Kuechel
Price

Sonny 2/3 of an IP away ! :flex:

[jstasyk1121]

Sonny 2/3 of an IP away ! :flex:

yep...but that is kinda my point...like archer is avg like 6.1 inn per start and the other guys are 6.2 or 7.0....its not some crazy gap...its an extra out per start basically...

(and sonny was over 7 before his last start...lol)

[exitmusicblue]

yep...but that is kinda my point...like archer is avg like 6.1 inn per start and the other guys are 6.2 or 7.0....its not some crazy gap...its an extra out per start basically...

(and sonny was over 7 before his last start...lol)

Oh, I meant 2/3 more of an inning pitched and the cut is made. 6 1/3 ain't his average. ;) yup yup

[jstasyk1121]

Oh, I meant 2/3 more of an inning pitched and the cut is made. 6 1/3 ain't his average. ;) yup yup

i know that is what you meant...sonny is averaging just under 7/start....if he had 2 more outs this season he would be 7/start...im saying people saying archer doesnt go deep enough sounds silly to me when gray is only averaging between 1 and 2 outs more per start...its not some crazy stat where archer is like barely over 5ip/start

[exitmusicblue]

Of course... Archer made a good run, has work to do in the ERA department.

Meanwhile, Kersh has made it into the top 5 for the NL. Can't ever count this guy out.

[grandmasterPRA]

Got some good arms going tonight:

Cueto
Price
S. Miller
Bumgarner
H. Santiago
Lackey
Sale

Should see some good pitching...

[death2redemptions]

Got some good arms going tonight:

Cueto
Price
S. Miller
Bumgarner
H. Santiago
Lackey
Sale

Should see some good pitching...

Shelby Miller pitching today? Looks like the Braves will be getting shutout again.

[Homerun]

I highly suggest reading this article if you haven't already. His stats are pretty unbelievable if you really think about it.

Facing Chris Sale of Chicago White Sox is a complete nightmare (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/13476677/facing-chris-sale-chicago-white-sox-complete-nightmare)

[awz50]

Maybe with half the ER and BB, double the K's, and some shavings off his WHIP and FIP ;)

Shut up..cant a man dream lol...

[chansen10]

all of 3 guys are averaging 7ip/start in the AL.....three!!!

Kluber
Kuechel
Price


Kluber has 26 Starts, same with archer and has pitched nearly 20 Innings more, which is basically 2 full complete games more.
Gray has pitched two less games and only one inning behind archer
Sales pitched three less games and is 12 IP behind archer

I'm simply stating Archer thus far hasn't pitched deep enough into games.

To clarify I wasn't saying you have to average 7IP, but if Archer was averaging that than he would be at the top of my list. Archer has had too many starts (11 or 13) where he hasn't made it out of the 6th inning.

[seabass97166]

Chris Sale should win the AL Cy Young. Why? Besides his numbers, look at the team stats behind him. White Sox defense has been at the bottom all season in baseball and their offense is just as bad.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t361/seabass97166/giphy_zpsmahk8lux.gif (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/seabass97166/media/giphy_zpsmahk8lux.gif.html)

[SaleSuperFan]

I highly suggest reading this article if you haven't already. His stats are pretty unbelievable if you really think about it.

Facing Chris Sale of Chicago White Sox is a complete nightmare (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/13476677/facing-chris-sale-chicago-white-sox-complete-nightmare)

I was literally just going to post that article haha even as a huge Sale fan, I didn't realize he was such a close second to Kershaw in all those career stats. It's worthless to wonder, but I've always been curious what they'd both look like if Kershaw had entered in the AL and Sale in the NL. On a real note, I'm super excited to see Sale and Felix go at it tonight, going to be a great game!

[motu79]

Got some good arms going tonight:

Cueto
Price
S. Miller
Bumgarner
H. Santiago
Lackey
Sale

Should see some good pitching...


Felix is no longer a good arm?

[SaleSuperFan]

Felix is no longer a good arm?

I've been looking forward to the Felix v. Sale matchup all day. Good luck to both sides :)!

[enbambam6986]

Felix is no longer a good arm?

Ehhhh. He's not an ace like lackey

[jstasyk1121]

Kluber has 26 Starts, same with archer and has pitched nearly 20 Innings more, which is basically 2 full complete games more.
Gray has pitched two less games and only one inning behind archer
Sales pitched three less games and is 12 IP behind archer

I'm simply stating Archer thus far hasn't pitched deep enough into games.

To clarify I wasn't saying you have to average 7IP, but if Archer was averaging that than he would be at the top of my list. Archer has had too many starts (11 or 13) where he hasn't made it out of the 6th inning.

yea and Kluber is a beast...and he still is averaging less than 1 inning more per start...

and ok so give Sale 7inn for his 3 starts to even up and he is 9inn ahead...which is minimal over 25 starts...its literally like 1 out more per start...i dont even like archer that much...he is good and what not...but im not a fan...i love sale and kluber and price...and they are more efficient...but not by a mile...


*edit*...Sale has only 2 starts less not 3...and is 12 behind...so if he went 7/7 then he would be 2inn ahead...basically being the exact same workload on the season...

**2nd edit** Archer has 6 games this year where he didnt get thru 6 inn...so idk if you meant thru 7...but since most guys at best avg 7 im sure alot of guys have 10-12 starts where they dont get 7.0ip....so only 6 times did he pitch less than 6.0 in a game...out of 26 starts...

[SaleSuperFan]

And Sale's defense already is trying to screw him over. Routine hit to Avisail Garcia who bumbles the route and tips it off his glove....so sick of watching this team screw up.

[MBumgarner40]

And Sale's defense already is trying to screw him over. Routine hit to Avisail Garcia who bumbles the route and tips it off his glove....so sick of watching this team screw up.

The Giants will take him:)!

[SaleSuperFan]

The Giants will take him:)!

I will gladly send you Avi for whatever Catching/corner outfield help you want to send. He's been pathetic in the outfield and for the most part at the plate too. Bad defense has equaled more pitches for Sale all year long. Oh well, struck out the side. He's shooting for another 15K game today.

[MBumgarner40]

I will gladly send you Avi for whatever Catching/corner outfield help you want to send. He's been pathetic in the outfield and for the most part at the plate too. Bad defense has equaled more pitches for Sale all year long. Oh well, struck out the side. He's shooting for another 15K game today.

I was talking about Sale haha

[SaleSuperFan]

I was talking about Sale haha

He had a gorgeous 7 inn, 0ER, 12K game going until he decided to give up 2 singles and a HR... :(

[MBumgarner40]

He had a gorgeous 7 inn, 0ER, 12K game going until he decided to give up 2 singles and a HR... :(

Yeah just saw that, and can we officially eliminate Felix from the race?

[SaleSuperFan]

Yeah just saw that, and can we officially eliminate Felix from the race?

Felix is definitely out, and that one pitch solidified Sale with a 3rd/4th place finish :/ Hoping to see him end with 16K's tonight though.

[SaleSuperFan]

Felix is definitely out, and that one pitch solidified Sale with a 3rd/4th place finish :/ Hoping to see him end with 16K's tonight though.

And of course he doesn't even get a shot to get 16 because our idiotic manager pulls him...this is why I don't care about IP as a stat either because fools like Ventura pull guys after 7 when they could easily go 8...

[death2redemptions]

I don't think this start hurts Sale's chances for the Cy Young award. His k/9 rate is insane now, his WHIP improved, he went a full 7 IP & got another quality start. I think with his strikeout numbers & outstanding FIP that an ERA of 3.34 would be *acceptable* for the Cy Young award but his chances would greatly improve if he could get his ERA closer to 3.00.

I still think Keuchel is the front runner at the moment but not by much at all.

[chansen10]

yea and Kluber is a beast...and he still is averaging less than 1 inning more per start...

and ok so give Sale 7inn for his 3 starts to even up and he is 9inn ahead...which is minimal over 25 starts...its literally like 1 out more per start...i dont even like archer that much...he is good and what not...but im not a fan...i love sale and kluber and price...and they are more efficient...but not by a mile...


*edit*...Sale has only 2 starts less not 3...and is 12 behind...so if he went 7/7 then he would be 2inn ahead...basically being the exact same workload on the season...

**2nd edit** Archer has 6 games this year where he didnt get thru 6 inn...so idk if you meant thru 7...but since most guys at best avg 7 im sure alot of guys have 10-12 starts where they dont get 7.0ip....so only 6 times did he pitch less than 6.0 in a game...out of 26 starts...

Chris sale made his 24th start of the year tonight, going 7ip. Still 2 starts behind archer.
Archer has 7IP or deeper in half his starts. He's simply not a workhorse YET. That's what's holding him back in the CY race still probably 5th in running right now.

Archer is as talented as anyone and if he becomes a workhorse like a price he'll be the best pitcher in all of baseball. I don't think anyone is necessarily light years ahead of anyone in either league for the award I think it's up for grab in both leagues

[Homerun]

Felix is definitely out, and that one pitch solidified Sale with a 3rd/4th place finish :/ Hoping to see him end with 16K's tonight though.

His start last night didn't really ruin his chances. The homer he threw inflated his ERA, but it went from 3.32 to 3.34. It's not that big of a deal.

Like D2R said, his other stats are so good that he still has as good of a chance as anyone.

Gray and Keuchel are due for bad starts anyway, so hopefully they have a bad start or two which would inflate their ERA.

[NeedChapmans]

His start last night didn't really ruin his chances. The homer he threw inflated his ERA, but it went from 3.32 to 3.34. It's not that big of a deal.

Like D2R said, his other stats are so good that he still has as good of a chance as anyone.

Gray and Keuchel are due for bad starts anyway, so hopefully they have a bad start or two which would inflate their ERA.

If the CY Young award ended today, Sale would be close to cracking the top 3 right now. Yes, he can blow out away start to start with strikeouts, but outside of one crazy month, Sale has been below average. Yes, below average.

April - 5.32 ERA
May - 2.68 ERA
June - 1.83 ERA (75K) Absolutely awesome month.
July - 4.19 ERA
August - 4.05 ERA

Compare that to Price, Keuchel, Gray and you'll see that while Sale has better metrics, because he can get a lot more K's than these three, he's still leaving meatballs in the zone when it matters most. Unless all of the aforementioned fall apart down the stretch, and Sale finishes with another June like September; he's not in the running. It's a three horse race, and you could even argue Archer has a better shot than Sale right now.

Fact of the matter is, Sale got worse this year. The ultimate job of a pitcher is to get outs, stop runs from scoring. Sale isn't doing that as well as a lot of other pitchers, and not as well as he did last year.

[jstasyk1121]

if he gets to 300k this year that might be the feather in his cap needed to overpower the lower era guys ahead of him...

[NeedChapmans]

if he gets to 300k this year that might be the feather in his cap needed to overpower the lower era guys ahead of him...

If Chris Sale has given up 25 more runs than a couple other pitchers in the AL, then no, it doesn't help. You just cannot be 29th in the ERA standings in baseball and win a CY Young award.

[jstasyk1121]

If Chris Sale has given up 25 more runs than a couple other pitchers in the AL, then no, it doesn't help. You just cannot be 29th in the ERA standings in baseball and win a CY Young award.

well i guess he is lucky that the cy young is given for the AL and NL so he is 12th in ERA in the AL...not 29th since that is his overall rank...

[NeedChapmans]

well i guess he is lucky that the cy young is given for the AL and NL so he is 12th in ERA in the AL...not 29th since that is his overall rank...

Hang your hat on Jack McDowell. 22 years ago, he finished with a similar ERA to Sale, and 22 wins, and wasn't in the top 10 of his own league in ERA. Back then, wins meant everything. Oddly enough, the last Sox pitcher to win the Cy Young award.

Of course, re-vote today, and Appier wins in a landslide. (Lead in ERA, ERA+, FIP etc.) and still had an 18-8 record.

[jstasyk1121]

Hang your hat on Jack McDowell. 22 years ago, he finished with a similar ERA to Sale, and 22 wins, and wasn't in the top 10 of his own league in ERA. Back then, wins meant everything. Oddly enough, the last Sox pitcher to win the Cy Young award.

Of course, re-vote today, and Appier wins in a landslide. (Lead in ERA, ERA+, FIP etc.) and still had an 18-8 record.

outside of ERA Sale has the best resume going IMO....but his 3.34era is only thing sticking out against him.

he is 4th in WHIP
he is 1st in Strikeouts
he is 1st in K/9
he is 1st in K/BB ratio
he is 1st in FIP

*the K stuff he has a pretty handsome lead over his strongest counterparts


the Wins category with 12 he is t-7th but among guy who actually have shot i would say its keuchel 14, then price/sale/gray have 12...with anyone else lower...so he could end up leading in Wins as well. his biggest hurdle might be WAR where gray has him doubled currently but alot of voters still dont hold that stat too highly...

so i think if his season ending line looked something like:

17-9
3.15 era
1.01 whip
302k
45bb
leader in FIP

that it may end up quite difficult to pass him up

Gray would maybe end up somewhere in range of:
17-7
2.25 era
1.00 whip
185k
57bb
leader in WAR

idk...to me sales numbers in this scenario are more impressive than a low ERA and pedestrian k/bb numbers...

[NeedChapmans]

^^ You're valuing strikeouts too much, which is exactly what FIP does as well. The formula suggests that a guy with high K numbers is less likely to give up runs, because when K's never lead to run scoring plays.

There's some value there, but when voters have a chance to vote for a guy like David Price, who has the team in the post-season, the ERA, the 200+K's and the .750 winning percentage, Sale can strike out 350, it won't matter. Runs are runs, and a pitcher on a losing team, with an average ERA, a good record and tremendous K numbers isn't going to trump Price.

[jstasyk1121]

^^ You're valuing strikeouts too much, which is exactly what FIP does as well. The formula suggests that a guy with high K numbers is less likely to give up runs, because when K's never lead to run scoring plays.

There's some value there, but when voters have a chance to vote for a guy like David Price, who has the team in the post-season, the ERA, the 200+K's and the .750 winning percentage, Sale can strike out 350, it won't matter. Runs are runs, and a pitcher on a losing team, with an average ERA, a good record and tremendous K numbers isn't going to trump Price.

I'm not saying he is in the lead for award right now...all I'm saying is if he gets 300 k which hasn't been done in almost 15 years...that is a big deal....every year guys have a good era on a winning team with 200+ k...not every year obviously do guys get 300k. ..I am overvaluing k's but u seem to be really stuck on runs/era...so mine as well give to gray then...on his losing team...with his 185k season but sparkling era...

I just disagree with you that if he does manage to get to 300 it won't matter...I think it will matter for sure...he might not win...I have no clue...but it would be a compelling argument I think

[MBumgarner40]

I'm not saying he is in the lead for award right now...all I'm saying is if he gets 300 k which hasn't been done in almost 15 years...that is a big deal....every year guys have a good era on a winning team with 200+ k...not every year obviously do guys get 300k. ..I am overvaluing k's but u seem to be really stuck on runs/era...so mine as well give to gray then...on his losing team...with his 185k season but sparkling era...

I just disagree with you that if he does manage to get to 300 it won't matter...I think it will matter for sure...he might not win...I have no clue...but it would be a compelling argument I think

I just heard Sonny has the lowest ERA in the AL since Pedro in 2000

[death2redemptions]

I'm not saying he is in the lead for award right now...all I'm saying is if he gets 300 k which hasn't been done in almost 15 years...that is a big deal....every year guys have a good era on a winning team with 200+ k...not every year obviously do guys get 300k. ..I am overvaluing k's but u seem to be really stuck on runs/era...so mine as well give to gray then...on his losing team...with his 185k season but sparkling era...

I just disagree with you that if he does manage to get to 300 it won't matter...I think it will matter for sure...he might not win...I have no clue...but it would be a compelling argument I think

300 k's is definitely a special achievement and if you can do it with an ERA under 3.30 then he's pretty much guaranteed 1st or 2nd place.