Report: Spygate scandal worse than thought [Archive]

88horsepower

09-08-2015, 06:24 PM

This just feels like the NFL being sour grapes. It's so hard to believe anything that comes out of the league office anymore. I'm not saying the Patriots are innocent or guilty, I'm just taking anything with a grain of salt. This just seems too coincidental with how bad a week the league office just had.

The whole Spygate bit certainly is unearthing a lot of ugly feelings I've had about the Patriots. It's like re-opening an old wound, so to speak. I've never felt resolution about how Spygate was handled, and the timing of this story is, well, timely, considering the kind of week the NFL has endured. Bringing up something new that reminds us why we hate the Patriots keep the Patriots on the hot seat. Still, the story puts Goodell on the hot seat as much as anybody. Everyone gets to take aim at their favorite targets on this one.

whodatbeastly16

09-08-2015, 06:29 PM

Can anyone summarize the whole new situation that's going on with this? What's been unearthed that hasn't been already

ssbledsoe

09-08-2015, 06:38 PM

Can anyone summarize the whole new situation that's going on with this? What's been unearthed that hasn't been already

The NFL and ESPN continue their efforts to smear the Patriots since the NFL lost in court...

88horsepower

09-08-2015, 06:39 PM

The NFL and ESPN continue their efforts to smear the Patriots since the NFL lost in court...

So helpful. So, so helpful.

ssbledsoe

09-08-2015, 06:39 PM

So helpful. So, so helpful.

I was helpful yesterday with RW3FAN. Weekly quota fulfilled :)!

whodatbeastly16

09-08-2015, 06:41 PM

So helpful. So, so helpful.

Can you help me? Or is it not 40 pages I have to read through to understand what's going on?

chitownbears22

09-08-2015, 06:43 PM

Can you help me? Or is it not 40 pages I have to read through to understand what's going on?

It is an article that presents itself as something new, but adds nothing new to the story we already know. If you take the reports we already know + the ESPN writing of deflategate = this story.

Goodell brushed it under the rug.
Tapes got destroyed.
Goodell and Kraft were friends.
Why were the tapes destroyed?
Speculation without proof.
The end

whodatbeastly16

09-08-2015, 06:45 PM

It is an article that presents itself as something new, but adds nothing new to the story we already know. If you take the reports we already know + the ESPN writing of deflategate = this story.

Goodell brushed it under the rug.
Tapes got destroyed.
Goodell and Kraft were friends.
Why were the tapes destroyed?
Speculation without proof.
The end

Thanks for the help!

chitownbears22

09-08-2015, 06:46 PM

Thanks for the help!

Yup. It isn't a bad read, but nothing new has been added. I do enjoy the OTL writers though.

88horsepower

09-08-2015, 06:49 PM

Can you help me? Or is it not 40 pages I have to read through to understand what's going on?

Ok, so this is some of what is now being talked about:

ESPN reporters, under the Outside the Lines banner, are stating, per sources, Belichick taped at least 40 games between 2000 and 2007, while Goodell insisted it only occurred a few times between 2006 and 2007. Moreover, the Patriots allegedly had opposing teams’ play sheets stolen from locker rooms.

***

Allegedly, Goodell also pushed then-Rams head coach Mike Martz to exonerate the league's Spygate investigation to relieve pressure from people demanding more answers.

Martz, who coached the Rams from 2000-05, also told ESPN that Goodell called him in 2008 and asked him to provide a statement saying he was satisfied with the league's look into Spygate. Arlen Specter, a senator from Pennsylvania, was calling for a congressional investigation.

"He (Goodell) told me, 'The league doesn't need this. We're asking you to come out with a couple lines exonerating us and saying we did our due diligence,'" Martz told ESPN.

Martz agreed to release a statement through the 49ers, for whom he was coaching at the time.

"I was stunned at Matt Walsh’s allegation that he was on the sideline in New England Patriots apparel during our walk-thru," read one part. "I find that insulting, disturbing and a slap in the face to both our team security and NFL security, who both do outstanding jobs. I promise you that if he was on the sideline, he was not in New England Patriots apparel because he would have been identified."

Now that Martz is out of coaching, his tune has changed. He balked when ESPN reintroduced his statement from 2008.

"It shocked me," Martz told ESPN. "It appears embellished quite a bit — some lines I know I didn't write. Who changed it? I don't know."

***

Allegedly, the Patriots went to great lengths to get signals and other information about their opponents.

Patriots staffers would dress like media members, covering team logos on their clothing or turning sweatshirts inside out to hide their team gear. They would also wear badges, credentials marked for Patriots TV or Kraft Productions.

Patriots employees would go through a visiting team's hotel looking for playbooks and other materials left behind. They would also send a staffer into an opponent's locker room to steal play sheets with the first 20 scripted plays on them.

***

Is any or all of this true? Beats me.

blackbears86

09-08-2015, 06:49 PM

The whole Spygate bit certainly is unearthing a lot of ugly feelings I've had about the Patriots. It's like re-opening an old wound, so to speak. I've never felt resolution about how Spygate was handled, and the timing of this story is, well, timely, considering the kind of week the NFL has endured. Bringing up something new that reminds us why we hate the Patriots keep the Patriots on the hot seat. Still, the story puts Goodell on the hot seat as much as anybody. Everyone gets to take aim at their favorite targets on this one.

You mean you hate the Patriots----I love the Patriots and hope they pull off another 18-0 season like 2008 when they were pissed at the league.:flex:

88horsepower

09-08-2015, 06:54 PM

You mean you hate the Patriots----I love the Patriots and hope they pull off another 18-0 season like 2008 when they were pissed at the league.:flex:

18-1, champ.

wheeler281

09-08-2015, 06:55 PM

Yay!!!! Another thread!!!

LOL

Maybe just cut and paste the 5 pages worth of responses from the other Brady thread that went on all morning

ssbledsoe

09-08-2015, 06:55 PM

Ok, so this is some of what is now being talked about:

ESPN reporters, under the Outside the Lines banner, are stating, per sources, Belichick taped at least 40 games between 2000 and 2007, while Goodell insisted it only occurred a few times between 2006 and 2007. Moreover, the Patriots allegedly had opposing teams’ play sheets stolen from locker rooms.

***

Allegedly, Goodell also pushed then-Rams head coach Mike Martz to exonerate the league's Spygate investigation to relieve pressure from people demanding more answers.

Martz, who coached the Rams from 2000-05, also told ESPN that Goodell called him in 2008 and asked him to provide a statement saying he was satisfied with the league's look into Spygate. Arlen Specter, a senator from Pennsylvania, was calling for a congressional investigation.

"He (Goodell) told me, 'The league doesn't need this. We're asking you to come out with a couple lines exonerating us and saying we did our due diligence,'" Martz told ESPN.

Martz agreed to release a statement through the 49ers, for whom he was coaching at the time.

"I was stunned at Matt Walsh’s allegation that he was on the sideline in New England Patriots apparel during our walk-thru," read one part. "I find that insulting, disturbing and a slap in the face to both our team security and NFL security, who both do outstanding jobs. I promise you that if he was on the sideline, he was not in New England Patriots apparel because he would have been identified."

Now that Martz is out of coaching, his tune has changed. He balked when ESPN reintroduced his statement from 2008.

"It shocked me," Martz told ESPN. "It appears embellished quite a bit — some lines I know I didn't write. Who changed it? I don't know."

***

Allegedly, the Patriots went to great lengths to get signals and other information about their opponents.

Patriots staffers would dress like media members, covering team logos on their clothing or turning sweatshirts inside out to hide their team gear. They would also wear badges, credentials marked for Patriots TV or Kraft Productions.

Patriots employees would go through a visiting team's hotel looking for playbooks and other materials left behind. They would also send a staffer into an opponent's locker room to steal play sheets with the first 20 scripted plays on them.

***

Is any or all of this true? Beats me.

The thing is, as you've mentioned before, this article "opened old wounds." That was its purpose. There isn't much proof and none of it goes beyond what the Patriots were already punished for. It shows the league is extremely upset that Goodell lost yet again another court case...

whodatbeastly16

09-08-2015, 06:58 PM

18-1, champ.

ZINGERRRRR

88horsepower

09-08-2015, 07:02 PM

The thing is, as you've mentioned before, this article "opened old wounds." That was its purpose. There isn't much proof and none of it goes beyond what the Patriots were already punished for. It shows the league is extremely upset that Goodell lost yet again another court case...

Oh, I get that, man. It served it's purpose. Am I buying all the new information being alleged? No. Regardless, the news is in front of me all day so it's hard to totally compartmentalize feelings of resentment from what happened in the past.

RW3FAN

09-08-2015, 07:04 PM

I was helpful yesterday with RW3FAN. Weekly quota fulfilled :)!

Ya, he's done. Mic drop.......

ssbledsoe

09-08-2015, 07:06 PM

Oh, I get that, man. It served it's purpose. Am I buying all the new information being alleged? No. Regardless, the news is in front of me all day so it's hard to totally compartmentalize feelings of resentment from what happened in the past.

I get it. It just peeves me off where it's all going. Do I think BB is squeaky clean? Absolutely not. Do I think he's any worse than any other coach? Absolutely not. I think they all push whatever boundaries they can. Some get better. Some get mad and cry foul. It's absurd when there are so many more larger issues affecting the game. Just 1 mans opinion.

ITLSJXW8

09-08-2015, 07:13 PM

A lot of the stuff written beforehand was hastily written or full of falsehoods. This is pretty damning. There are a few things you can quibble over but if you take the time to read it, it's a pretty damning indictment of Goodell, the Patriots, and the NFL.

Long story short there is enough here to cast a shadow on the Patriots accomplishments over the last 15 years.

RogerGodahell

09-08-2015, 07:38 PM

Seriously who leaves a play sheet just lying around? And it has the first 20 plays of the game. Sounds a little out there...

coltsnsox07

09-08-2015, 07:47 PM

All you haterz just hatin' on the Pats! Stop kicking sand into the Patriot fans' vage's.

jasonm2121

09-08-2015, 07:47 PM

Seriously who leaves a play sheet just lying around? And it has the first 20 plays of the game. Sounds a little out there...

Seriously, none of this seems like news to me, but it certainly shows how incompetent a lot teams are with their operations.

88horsepower

09-08-2015, 08:08 PM

Seriously, none of this seems like news to me, but it certainly shows how incompetent a lot teams are with their operations.

Considering how incompetent some of the players are these days, I'm surprised they can leave their house without tripping over their own feet. Leaving a playbook behind wouldn't shock me in the least.

coltsnsox07

09-08-2015, 08:19 PM

Hey look on the bright side Pats fans, your team may be a laughing stock rife with cheating, but at least it's not as bad as what the Yankees are being accused of today. Salacious!

ssbledsoe

09-08-2015, 08:29 PM

Hey look on the bright side Pats fans, your team may be a laughing stock rife with cheating, but at least it's not as bad as what the Yankees are being accused of today. Salacious!

Eh, better than being the fan of a team run by a drug riddled loser who is too cheap to build his own stadium...

The yodaninja

09-08-2015, 08:43 PM

Eh, better than being the fan of a team run by a drug riddled loser who is too cheap to build his own stadium...

:coffee:^^^^^^^^^

tacoma34

09-08-2015, 08:50 PM

Seriously, the football forum has been terrible lately. Can you guys go talk about this stupid crap in the Toys or Hockey subforum. I'm sure they would love some traffic.

RW3FAN

09-08-2015, 08:53 PM

Seriously who leaves a play sheet just lying around? And it has the first 20 plays of the game. Sounds a little out there...

Holmgren used to run FAKE plays just to throw the other team off.
He knew teams were watching.

ssbledsoe

09-08-2015, 08:56 PM

Holmgren used to run FAKE plays just to throw the other team off.
He knew teams were watching.

He was wasting his time! Only the Patriots were cheaters?!?!!!

BostonNut

09-08-2015, 09:08 PM

LMAO...

Troy Brown: Bill Parcells used to freeze Patriots practices any time a helicoptor or small plane flew over due to paranoia of being spied on.

21Pittsburgh58

09-08-2015, 10:20 PM

Seriously, none of this seems like news to me, but it certainly shows how incompetent a lot teams are with their operations.

Yeah, there are AT LEAST two dumba$$ Steelers that would use the playsheet to roll a fatty

:mad: :D :p

88horsepower

09-08-2015, 10:37 PM

Yeah, there are AT LEAST two dumba$$ Steelers that would use the playsheet to roll a fatty

:mad: :D :p

I did enjoy the bit where it had allegedly become such widespread knowledge that the Patriots were stealing scripts that teams would purposefully leave out fake scripts for the Pats personnel to steal.

SaveMeTheGum

09-08-2015, 11:54 PM

I did enjoy the bit where it had allegedly become such widespread knowledge that the Patriots were stealing scripts that teams would purposefully leave out fake scripts for the Pats personnel to steal.

Didn't they do that on an episode of The Brady Bunch?

jasonm2121

09-09-2015, 12:49 AM

SI.com story on Pats has compelling, but inaccurate, anecdote | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/08/si-com-story-on-pats-has-compelling-but-inaccurate-anecdote/)

88horsepower

09-09-2015, 12:53 AM

SI.com story on Pats has compelling, but inaccurate, anecdote | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/08/si-com-story-on-pats-has-compelling-but-inaccurate-anecdote/)

There was an SI story? I guess that was lost amidst the ESPN story.

phinzphan1372

09-09-2015, 04:33 AM

From this thread

http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/football/917403-teflon-tom-brady-2.html

Weren't you just complaining about Brady/Deflategate/Patriots thread.

hmmmmmmmmmm

He's a witch! Burn him!

phinzphan1372

09-09-2015, 04:40 AM

The thing is, as you've mentioned before, this article "opened old wounds." That was its purpose. There isn't much proof and none of it goes beyond what the Patriots were already punished for. It shows the league is extremely upset that Goodell lost yet again another court case...

Is martz a liar? ... Or is that what we are going to call him because he can paint the pats in a negative light?

chitownbears22

09-09-2015, 04:45 AM

Is martz a liar? ... Or is that what we are going to call him because he can paint the pats in a negative light?

Martz’s 2008 statement hasn’t changed | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/08/martzs-2008-statement-hasnt-changed/)

SI.com story on Pats has compelling, but inaccurate, anecdote | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/08/si-com-story-on-pats-has-compelling-but-inaccurate-anecdote/)

PFT > ESPN

jasonm2121

09-10-2015, 09:17 AM

ESPN gives “tighter edit” to column criticizing ESPN’s Patriots opus | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/09/espn-gives-tighter-edit-to-column-criticizing-espns-patriots-opus/)

Report: ESPN has more lies in stories, again

twisty571

09-10-2015, 11:45 AM

Oh, I get that, man. It served it's purpose. Am I buying all the new information being alleged? No. Regardless, the news is in front of me all day so it's hard to totally compartmentalize feelings of resentment from what happened in the past.

So do you hate every team in the league also. Everyone was taping and getting signals. The wrong doing was the Pat's had a camera at the wrong angle. Do not exclude the other teams who have admitted to doing this kind of stuff. It's been done for along time.

SaveMeTheGum

09-10-2015, 11:58 AM

So do you hate every team in the league also. Everyone was taping and getting signals. The wrong doing was the Pat's had a camera at the wrong angle. Do not exclude the other teams who have admitted to doing this kind of stuff. It's been done for along time.

The hilarious reality is that taping signals IS STILL LEGAL in football. You just can't do it from the sideline. Also, it was always legal before 2006.

Here is a perfect analogy of spygate:

Let's say there's a carpool lane that is 2+ passengers. And you've driven to work every day with someone else legally in the carpool lane. And you've done this for 10 years. And then, all of a sudden, they change the rule to 3+. You continue to drive in the carpool lane with 2 anyways, and you get stopped and get a ticket. No big deal right, except, you get a ticket for $10,000 and they take away your car.

jasonm2121

09-10-2015, 12:11 PM

The hilarious reality is that taping signals IS STILL LEGAL in football. You just can't do it from the sideline. Also, it was always legal before 2006.

Here is a perfect analogy of spygate:

Let's say there's a carpool lane that is 2+ passengers. And you've driven to work every day with someone else legally in the carpool lane. And you've done this for 10 years. And then, all of a sudden, they change the rule to 3+. You continue to drive in the carpool lane with 2 anyways, and you get stopped and get a ticket. No big deal right, except, you get a ticket for $10,000 and they take away your car.

If we are saying that, then ESPN will say you drove in the HOV lane in a high speed tank with 12 militants looking to take over the world at all costs

88horsepower

09-10-2015, 12:24 PM

So do you hate every team in the league also. Everyone was taping and getting signals. The wrong doing was the Pat's had a camera at the wrong angle. Do not exclude the other teams who have admitted to doing this kind of stuff. It's been done for along time.

Hi, Twisty. I strongly dislike when any team, including my own, takes measures to skirt the rules. I don't need you to tell me how I should or shouldn't feel about this. I didn't dislike the Patriots to the level I do now prior to the cheating allegations. Over the past several years, there have been a significant number of accusations that have altered my perception of the Patriots. If this were, for example, the Pittsburgh Steelers or the Carolina Panthers, I would still be very upset by it and you, nor anybody else, gets to tell me otherwise. I have a strong disdain for anything that compromises the integrity of athletic competition. Having been an athlete and a coach myself, it's something I have zero tolerance for.

SaveMeTheGum

09-10-2015, 12:40 PM

Hi, Twisty. I strongly dislike when any team, including my own, takes measures to skirt the rules. I don't need you to tell me how I should or shouldn't feel about this. I didn't dislike the Patriots to the level I do now prior to the cheating allegations. Over the past several years, there have been a significant number of accusations that have altered my perception of the Patriots. If this were, for example, the Pittsburgh Steelers or the Carolina Panthers, I would still be very upset by it and you, nor anybody else, gets to tell me otherwise. I have a strong disdain for anything that compromises the integrity of athletic competition. Having been an athlete and a coach myself, it's something I have zero tolerance for.

" there have been a significant number of accusations that have altered my perception of the Patriots" = They keep beating the hell out of the Colts.

88horsepower

09-10-2015, 12:48 PM

" there have been a significant number of accusations that have altered my perception of the Patriots" = They keep beating the hell out of the Colts.

The losses in the 2003 AFC Title game & 2004 AFC Divisional game certainly hurt. The win over the Patriots in the 2006 AFC Title game helped put the hard feelings to rest. If memory serves, there were no widespread accusations being made against the Patriots at that time. My feelings about the Patriots were limited to wins and losses in big games. Naturally, rivalries bring about feelings of resentment towards the opposition. That's how rivalries work.

Once the accusations of skirting rules came out, my feelings changed. The accusations, as they have mounted, have understandably impacted my perception of the Patriots.

jasonm2121

09-10-2015, 12:54 PM

The losses in the 2003 AFC Title game & 2004 AFC Divisional game certainly hurt. The win over the Patriots in the 2006 AFC Title game helped put the hard feelings to rest. If memory serves, there were no widespread accusations being made against the Patriots at that time. My feelings about the Patriots were limited to wins and losses in big games. Naturally, rivalries bring about feelings of resentment towards the opposition. That's how rivalries work.

Once the accusations of skirting rules came out, my feelings changed. The accusations, as they have mounted, have understandably impacted my perception of the Patriots.

Even as a Patriots fan, you cannot help but think so many of the stories and allegations seem unconfirmed, false or fabricated. With that being said, how upset can you be knowing it is coming from anonymous/Ted Danson sources and many are later retracted or never proven. At the end of the day, one thing is for sure, the Patriots are in the opponents head well before kick off and I do think that they can worry so much that is does indeed distract them and soften their preparation. Advantage BB.

twisty571

09-10-2015, 01:15 PM

Hi, Twisty. I strongly dislike when any team, including my own, takes measures to skirt the rules. I don't need you to tell me how I should or shouldn't feel about this. I didn't dislike the Patriots to the level I do now prior to the cheating allegations. Over the past several years, there have been a significant number of accusations that have altered my perception of the Patriots. If this were, for example, the Pittsburgh Steelers or the Carolina Panthers, I would still be very upset by it and you, nor anybody else, gets to tell me otherwise. I have a strong disdain for anything that compromises the integrity of athletic competition. Having been an athlete and a coach myself, it's something I have zero tolerance for.

And do you think if the Colts were winning as much there wouldn't be "allegations" of funny business done by the Colts? I already think you are playing a 2 way street as your team had 2 of their 4 tested balls under inflated but you never want to discuss that or wonder where their fines and suspensions and investigations are. Edit,as you seems to say I am telling you how to feel,no I asked plain and simple. No need to get defensive,just asking.

Pot Roast

09-10-2015, 01:22 PM

Metal Gear?! Is this amateur hour?

Splinter Cell, son! :coffee:

http://media.giphy.com/media/SedMCzMp4uecM/giphy.gif

21Pittsburgh58

09-10-2015, 01:32 PM

And do you think if the Colts were winning as much there wouldn't be "allegations" of funny business done by the Colts? I already think you are playing a 2 way street as your team had 2 of their 4 tested balls under inflated but you never want to discuss that or wonder where their fines and suspensions and investigations are. Edit,as you seems to say I am telling you how to feel,no I asked plain and simple. No need to get defensive,just asking.

Now, now. If the allegations against the Patriots footballs are incorrect, then you sure AS HELL cannot use those same allegations against the Colts footballs. If you are saying that the Colts are guilty then guess what, you're adamant stance for the Patriots is null and void. Pot, kettle type of thing.

It's been a witch hunt and it continues to be a witch hunt. Patriots won the SB straight up. Everybody needs to get over it.

twisty571

09-10-2015, 01:55 PM

Now, now. If the allegations against the Patriots footballs are incorrect, then you sure AS HELL cannot use those same allegations against the Colts footballs. If you are saying that the Colts are guilty then guess what, you're adamant stance for the Patriots is null and void. Pot, kettle type of thing.

It's been a witch hunt and it continues to be a witch hunt. Patriots won the SB straight up. Everybody needs to get over it.

Well they were under inflated by the same amount & it changes nothing how he has these feelings that all this stuff is somehow true even though not proven but yet won't answer the question that has been asked in all these threads..... where is the Colts witch hunt?

Cactuspies

09-10-2015, 02:02 PM

The losses in the 2003 AFC Title game & 2004 AFC Divisional game certainly hurt. The win over the Patriots in the 2006 AFC Title game helped put the hard feelings to rest. If memory serves, there were no widespread accusations being made against the Patriots at that time. My feelings about the Patriots were limited to wins and losses in big games. Naturally, rivalries bring about feelings of resentment towards the opposition. That's how rivalries work.

Once the accusations of skirting rules came out, my feelings changed. The accusations, as they have mounted, have understandably impacted my perception of the Patriots.

actually the Colts and Irsay (I believe) complained about the Pats being bullies and got the WR/DB rules changed which only helped Peyton.

if everything really is true and if you** believe what is being pumped out, then wouldn't the team be 8-8 every year? They have played better after all the issues than before. 18-1 after spygate - only a fluke catch, and a superbowl win after deflategate. maybe there should have been a couple of more gates and they would have 15 straight titles.

**for "you" - I just mean in general, 88 you have become more level headed with things and that makes me happy**

88horsepower

09-10-2015, 02:48 PM

Even as a Patriots fan, you cannot help but think so many of the stories and allegations seem unconfirmed, false or fabricated.

Oh, I agree. Where once I took everything to heart that came out about cheating allegations, I'm far more skeptical about all of the so-called "news" that's coming out these days. Though I still believe there is at least a kernel of truth to allegations, I certainly don't believe everything I'm hearing. I'd say I'm a skeptic at this point rather than a full-fledged believer.

And do you think if the Colts were winning as much there wouldn't be "allegations" of funny business done by the Colts? I already think you are playing a 2 way street as your team had 2 of their 4 tested balls under inflated but you never want to discuss that or wonder where their fines and suspensions and investigations are. Edit,as you seems to say I am telling you how to feel,no I asked plain and simple. No need to get defensive,just asking.

21Pittsburgh58 seems to have answered this already, so moving on...

actually the Colts and Irsay (I believe) complained about the Pats being bullies and got the WR/DB rules changed which only helped Peyton.

That first part you wrote about the WR/DB rule, just watch the 2003 AFC Title game again and I think you might see why the rule was changed. One play in particular still has me scratching my head...

https://captaincomeback.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/pol.jpg

The Patriots were all over Colts receivers in that game. In fact, the play I showed above is just one example where Pats defenders were making illegal contact on Colts pass-catchers.

The most egregious part was the end of the game. Despite how badly they had played, the Colts were down 21-14 at their own 20 with 2:01 remaining and two timeouts. On two consecutive plays Peyton Manning targeted tight end Marcus Pollard, who was first jammed at the line and grabbed by the jersey by linebacker Willie McGinest. He was then passed off to linebacker Roman Phifer, who continued the contact more than five yards down the field, which is illegal.

The second play came on a decisive 4th-and-10, and it was the same approach with McGinest getting a clear hold around Pollard’s neck before passing him off to Phifer, who made even more contact this time, including a subtle arm pull just before the ball arrived incomplete. No flags came and that clinched the win for New England.

To be fair, the Panthers were doing a lot of the same illegal contact plays against the Eagles, who they beat earlier in the day. The refs just let it go, for whatever reason. In the Colts/Pats game, there were 7 combined penalties, all for false starts. Not one penalty against a defense. Not one. That's a problem. So, say what you will about the rule change, but I think this was the right call for the Colts to be upset about.

**for "you" - I just mean in general, 88 you have become more level headed with things and that makes me happy**

I really am making a concerted effort to be less biased. Obviously, some biases are hard to shake. Guilty as charged here. But, I really am trying to see things in a more balanced light instead of jumping to emotional conclusions at the onset. :cool: