Eminence is LIVE!!!

[UltimateDeron]

A member here just posted this Bird on eBay..

Panini Eminence Larry Bird Silver Metal Roy Auto 1 1 One of One Celtics Patch | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PANINI-EMINENCE-LARRY-BIRD-SILVER-METAL-ROY-AUTO-1-1-ONE-OF-ONE-CELTICS-PATCH-/231784603309?hash=item35f7705ead:g:-foAAOSwhkRWb9RH)

Likely the best card in a $5k box?? :eek:

I am very interested in seeing what some of these cards bring.

[hairyangryfella]

That card is fugly. From the fat, dark, streaky auto to the unbelievably amateur-looking foil curve. Blergh.

[EricMetcalf21]

I wonder what the players were thinking when they were signing this garbage .

[bma0215]

No matter how I look at the card, I just don't feel any urge to go for it, even it being a 1/1.

[BigAl83]

I wonder how many boxes he broke?

7-10 card per box. And the seller has listed 5 so far (makes you wonder if he kept the good hits, cut auto perhaps?!)

But the 5 cards listed are unimpressive to say the least. 3 of the same cards in one box!! (i assume)

Karl Malone Silver chunk auto /10, Dr.J Silver chunk auto /10, Bill Walton Silver chunk auto /10, Nowitzki plain auto /10 and then that Bird 1/1.

At 5.5k, OUCH!!!! :eek: :eek:

[tmar214]

Man thaTs rough. I'm sure the silver cards will sell ok at first but ....

Malone, Walton and Erving autos w 13$ worth of metal in them. Throw in a Dirk regular auto. I'm sure being first out of the gate in posting on ebay it won't be to rough but down the line I could see those cards selling for 5-600 combined. That's half of a 6k case. So brutal.

I'm with a few other people on the bird. The auto being signed w huge pen and mediocre tag kills it for me. Don't really uderstand the draw for tags over prime patches.

I've come real close to treating myself to a case on a couple occasions and now extremely happy I didnt.



The seller posted in another thread that the other cards were. Anthony Davis, jabari and milsapp. Seems like this box could have returned 2-3k max ?

Bird
Malone
Dirk
Anthony Davis
Erving
Jabari
Milsapp
Walton

sounds like a mediocre case of flawless.

[MiracleSports]

Just witnessed a total of 9 boxes(cases) busted locally in the LCS. Results were dreadful and a total ship wreck...Panini is getting away with highway robbery and IMHO this release marks a shameful day in our hobby. And the sheer fact that they're getting away with all this made everyone in the room shook their head in disgust. Even the high rollers who crack these boxes had nothing but complete and utter numbness after the breaks. Cut signatures seems to fall in the ratio of 1 in every 7-8 cases, since there's only 1 cut signature that was pulled out of 9 boxes.

One thing is certain though: they definetely held back all the nice cases for local US distribution this year. Both HK and Singapore had below average cases allocated. This looks to be a back-loaded product for sure. Distributors better reserve some extra shelf space, cuz these suckers ain't goin anywhere anytime soon....

Good job "Monopolini"! Never have I thought or imagined that the incompetence of a single company can make a passionate collector like myself who has been doin it for almost 20 years want to get out of this hobby. Well you just proved that it is indeed possible. Thanks for turning this hobby into nothing other than a bacarrat or blackjack table in a casino VIP lounge.

Here's a new company slogan perhaps you can take into consideration. :D

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQy4W_8B9fhLTJssg3ZE2q9gxToPxBd-yQcqVLJxIu-Dj1hqLK1nA

[tmar214]

Miraclesports can you give us a breakdown of the big hits ? How many 1 oz gold cards ? Wiggins? Tags ? Etc

Overall way to many plain autos? Silver autos fall 2-3 per box?

[MiracleSports]

On average 8 cards per pack. About 2-3 metal cards (1 of them being auto'd) per box, mostly that .999 Troy Ounce Silver crap. 2 patch autos per box (Tier one guys being: Wiggins, Jabari, Kobe, Durant CP3 Tier two guys such as: Bird, Magic, Dr. J. Payton, Malone, Stockton Webber Iverson etc...) At least 1 USA dream team theme cards per box. 2-3 plain autos per box. All cards are 360 PT, so they're thick as hell. That's pretty much the actual breakdown. Have not seen the "one of one 14K Gold Auto" version out of the 9 cases. Platinum one of ones are also nowhere to be found. I guess those are hard to come by. Like I said, they're being held back for sure. A really nice cut signature was pulled (definetely a monster IMO). The card was also featured in their eminence preview video posted earlier. I can't reveal what the cut signature is since I'm not sure if the owner wants it to go public. And he's definetely a member on this board. So I'll just leave that decision to him. :)

[tmar214]

Thanks man. That has to be worst case scenario for how this product would turn out.

[tacoma34]

Just witnessed a total of 9 boxes(cases) busted locally in the LCS. Results were dreadful and a total ship wreck...Panini is getting away with highway robbery and IMHO this release marks a shameful day in our hobby. And the sheer fact that they're getting away with all this made everyone in the room shook their head in disgust. Even the high rollers who crack these boxes had nothing but complete and utter numbness after the breaks. Cut signatures seems to fall in the ratio of 1 in every 7-8 cases, since there's only 1 cut signature that was pulled out of 9 boxes.

One thing is certain though: they definetely held back all the nice cases for local US distribution this year. Both HK and Singapore had below average cases allocated. This looks to be a back-loaded product for sure. Distributors better reserve some extra shelf space, cuz these suckers ain't goin anywhere anytime soon....

Good job "Monopolini"! Never have I thought or imagined that the incompetence of a single company can make a passionate collector like myself who has been doin it for almost 20 years want to get out of this hobby. Well you just proved that it is indeed possible. Thanks for turning this hobby into nothing other than a bacarrat or blackjack table in a casino VIP lounge.

Here's a new company slogan perhaps you can take into consideration. :D

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQy4W_8B9fhLTJssg3ZE2q9gxToPxBd-yQcqVLJxIu-Dj1hqLK1nA

Haha while I agree this product is disgusting, you made some a lot of conclusions from only seeing 9 boxes.

[oldgoldy97]

Just witnessed a total of 9 boxes(cases) busted locally in the LCS. Results were dreadful and a total ship wreck...Panini is getting away with highway robbery and IMHO this release marks a shameful day in our hobby. And the sheer fact that they're getting away with all this made everyone in the room shook their head in disgust. Even the high rollers who crack these boxes had nothing but complete and utter numbness after the breaks. Cut signatures seems to fall in the ratio of 1 in every 7-8 cases, since there's only 1 cut signature that was pulled out of 9 boxes.

One thing is certain though: they definetely held back all the nice cases for local US distribution this year. Both HK and Singapore had below average cases allocated. This looks to be a back-loaded product for sure. Distributors better reserve some extra shelf space, cuz these suckers ain't goin anywhere anytime soon....

Good job "Monopolini"! Never have I thought or imagined that the incompetence of a single company can make a passionate collector like myself who has been doin it for almost 20 years want to get out of this hobby. Well you just proved that it is indeed possible. Thanks for turning this hobby into nothing other than a bacarrat or blackjack table in a casino VIP lounge.

Here's a new company slogan perhaps you can take into consideration. :D

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQy4W_8B9fhLTJssg3ZE2q9gxToPxBd-yQcqVLJxIu-Dj1hqLK1nA

Robbery is taking something from someone against their will by violence or intimidation. This is either fleecing or separating fools from the burden of money.

[MiracleSports]

Haha, nah man I'm just agonizing a little bit for my brothers in HK who broke this stuff and pretending I'm completely lubricated head to toe while cracking the cases~ lol. But seriously man, if you as a corporation have a bunch of overseas millionairs and successful businessman giving you the middle fi*ger and cursing out @$#%^&* in Chinese, YOU know you're company is an EPIC FAILure...lol

The eminence box is a work of art though! I'll give them that. I've always wondered if they have a complete different design team for the boxes and packaging of their products. Cuz they sure do a much better job everytime on the boxes than the actual content that was in it. The eminence box should sell for around 2-300 on feebay though. That'll help em a bit in recouping the funds. :D

[MiracleSports]

Robbery is taking something from someone against their will by violence or intimidation. This is either fleecing or separating fools from the burden of money.

True. Except for next time when Panini try to pull this on them, these sheeps will not be lining up for the haircut & staying indoors seeking another hobby to get their fix on. What card companies fail to realize is that: hobbyists and true collectors are leaving the hobby. Outrageous pricing on these uninspired & uninnovative products year in and year out. And once the gambling addicts turn their attention to new interests, YOU'll have nothing to build on.

[NoleinJax]

A member here just posted this Bird on eBay..

Panini Eminence Larry Bird Silver Metal Roy Auto 1 1 One of One Celtics Patch | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PANINI-EMINENCE-LARRY-BIRD-SILVER-METAL-ROY-AUTO-1-1-ONE-OF-ONE-CELTICS-PATCH-/231784603309?hash=item35f7705ead:g:-foAAOSwhkRWb9RH)



Likely the best card in a $5k box?? :eek:

I am very interested in seeing what some of these cards bring.

Can't even get a clear specific COA on a 6k box product.

[NoleinJax]

Just witnessed a total of 9 boxes(cases) busted locally in the LCS. Results were dreadful and a total ship wreck...Panini is getting away with highway robbery and IMHO this release marks a shameful day in our hobby. And the sheer fact that they're getting away with all this made everyone in the room shook their head in disgust. Even the high rollers who crack these boxes had nothing but complete and utter numbness after the breaks. Cut signatures seems to fall in the ratio of 1 in every 7-8 cases, since there's only 1 cut signature that was pulled out of 9 boxes.

One thing is certain though: they definetely held back all the nice cases for local US distribution this year. Both HK and Singapore had below average cases allocated. This looks to be a back-loaded product for sure. Distributors better reserve some extra shelf space, cuz these suckers ain't goin anywhere anytime soon....

Good job "Monopolini"! Never have I thought or imagined that the incompetence of a single company can make a passionate collector like myself who has been doin it for almost 20 years want to get out of this hobby. Well you just proved that it is indeed possible. Thanks for turning this hobby into nothing other than a bacarrat or blackjack table in a casino VIP lounge.

Here's a new company slogan perhaps you can take into consideration. :D

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQy4W_8B9fhLTJssg3ZE2q9gxToPxBd-yQcqVLJxIu-Dj1hqLK1nA

To be fair, they did post plenty of preview pics and even what looked to be a packed out box and I didn't see anything that would make me want to drop. With national treasures you had chances at cards worth 7-8x + the cost of a box. Are there any cards in this product with close to 50k?

[BigAl83]

It baffles me anyway how a company can command huge $$ for their products with 3rd tier content at best.

Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (wait for it) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (still not even close) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (still nothing Panini insight) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (still far far away) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (are we there yet? Nope!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (man this is taking forever! Hey its Panini were talking about) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Come on now we must be getting close) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anything Panini.


The only thing driving this Eminence stuff is the cut autos from deceased individuals (Wilt, Pistol, JFK, Napoleon, Mikan etc.). Everything else doesnt even come close to warrand such a hefty price tag.

The prices they ask for their products exceed simple inflation coverage, they just went overboard with doubling and tripling prices compared to what it used to be for similar or even better content from UD and Topps.

[fdjizm]

Would love to see the return on the busted boxes... none of those cards are going to sell for over $800 each.

This is definitely a risky bet that is not in the customers favor.

[mfw13]

True. Except for next time when Panini try to pull this on them, these sheeps will not be lining up for the haircut & staying indoors seeking another hobby to get their fix on. What card companies fail to realize is that: hobbyists and true collectors are leaving the hobby. Outrageous pricing on these uninspired & uninnovative products year in and year out. And once the gambling addicts turn their attention to new interests, YOU'll have nothing to build on.

Substitute Topps for Panini, and you have the same situation in baseball. Gambling has taken over the hobby...

[kevinshreves]

I generally am all-in for the higher end cases when I see the possibility of a good return.....but on this product I am staying FAR away. My gut feeling tells me that the average box will yield about a 20% return. I think I would much rather do 2 cases of Flawless or almost 3.5 cases of NT than this garbage. Think about this.....you could probably buy 12 cases of 2014-15 prizm and hit more $100 cards than you would in your one case of this stuff.

[MiracleSports]

There is 3 layers to the Eminence box. Top 2 layers had the cut-out space and layout prepared for the thick 360PT holder containing the cards (8-10). The bottom layer has the perfect space to fit a nice Panini Authentics piece ( autographed jerseys, autographed photos, jumbo box toppers, mystery redemptions cards etc...) You can tell from the design of the box that originally they reserved something special to be randomly inserted into these boxes. I was also informed by our local distributors that a Panini sales rep once told them that one of their 14-15 high end product (names unknown) will contain a combo mixture of cards + Panini Authentics stuff. Since Eminence is the last product on their 14-15 releases calender, this will be the last chance for them to have these inserted. Sure enough, after calculating the cost efficiency ratio, Panini decide to put the idea/extra incentive to rest. This company loves to play cat & mouse games with their customers, as if the mystery and suspense will keep people interested...SMH! At least with UD in the old days, you know what's coming to a product long before it's release. Almost a decade later and 10X SRP, we get a half finished product and a disfunctional company lacking both genuity and innovation.

BTW, this is how you do a high end product and a most anticipated preview. Bread company, you should take some serious notes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=220zdMz9sVc

[jprk31]

That Larry bird looks like Noir to me. When people stop busting this product is when Panini will stop making them. They should have stopped with Flawless but greed always tops things.

[bigcwd2000]

Panini is just loving this. It is just more money for them for anyone who buys this product.

[COMCMax]

Should have scrapped the gold/silver cards and included logoman autographs and jumbo patch HOF autographs (original Flawless jumbo patches with autographs). Then it would have made the price tag a little less crazy. Nothing new here.

PS:The jumbo gold ink pens have got to go.

[tke1600]

Would love to see the return on the busted boxes... none of those cards are going to sell for over $800 each.

This is definitely a risky bet that is not in the customers favor.

Looks like the entire box is listed at $0.99 NR auction. Well see this weekend about the ROI, etc of this box.

[Quigley24]

The 5 listings are already up to insane numbers, and he's STILL taking a blood bath at $600+/card box prices

[WaiverWire]

Be ready for non paying bidders.

[the27guy]

Looks like the entire box is listed at $0.99 NR auction. Well see this weekend about the ROI, etc of this box.
I only see 5 cards up right now. Am I missing something?

[Ottomatic]

This might be the worst product ever. Unless consumers end up paying significantly more for the singles because they came out of a 6000 dollar box. Product literally makes no sense.

[spurs50fan]

Hobby is tough to watch now. I'm not sure how it got to this point but I warned back with Exquisite that they will keep pushing the high water mark until it collapsed and run away without saying goodbye. The Bird will get 1-1.5k but will eventually be worth 6-800. It's happening over and over and you really can't blame a company for taking advantage of someone holding money-burning ceremonies every time they see something new & shiny. That's good business.

The cards look nice but the box/cases are extremely overpriced. They will sell because those who can absorb the cost will and make the max amount at release. Mostly card/comic shops who can hide the losses.

[tke1600]

I only see 5 cards up right now. Am I missing something?

Yea. Only 5 cards. Does anyone know the other 3 cards? Are they too low priced to run at auction or something?

I read about him hitting a Milsap and that is not listed.

[Jsquared123]

those 5 cards will be lucky to pull 2500 total.. if the Bird was the case hit.. ouch

[BigAl83]

I think this product is pretty much doomed from the start. It has no identity!

It will compete with Flawless, with its similar gimmicky cards (stones vs metals). Look at where those diamond cards are at right now after 3 years of Flawless.

This Eminence stuff has the same foil shapes and finishes from Flawless, paired with some Noir black backgrounds and Spectra Gold type Jumbo square patches. Its just a bunch of other products combined into one.


For me it leaves only Immaculate as a truelly nice distinct product with its own identity.

[tke1600]

those 5 cards will be lucky to pull 2500 total.. if the Bird was the case hit.. ouch

Looks like his other 3 cards are a Jabari, AD, and Milsap. Don't know what how much those 3 are worth but no sure all 8 cards will get that much back from the original $6k.

[Bruin7]

Well seeing as how the average NT case yields $300-500 in return value (unless you hit a major card like a logoman or RPA) that's roughly 17%-28%. I saw the same if not worse return on Noir. So wouldn't you consider a 25% return on Eminence as expected? I'm not sure why everyone is expecting these breaks to pull 50% or greater unless you hit a major card. For crying out loud they inserted Wes Unseld autos into the product!?!?!

[thekiddfan]

Haha. Im a pleasantly surprised man

All i can say is. I believe i got one of the worst cases made. But somehow from the offers i am receiving. Its not that bad

USA folks. U guys will get the gd cases. Trust me

[UltimateDeron]

Haha. Im a pleasantly surprised man

All i can say is. I believe i got one of the worst cases made. But somehow from the offers i am receiving. Its not that bad

USA folks. U guys will get the gd cases. Trust me

Can you post the other cards from your case here so we can see?

[the27guy]

Haha. Im a pleasantly surprised man

All i can say is. I believe i got one of the worst cases made. But somehow from the offers i am receiving. Its not that bad

USA folks. U guys will get the gd cases. Trust me

Only 8 cards?

Man. I really thought the average would be closer to 10.

[MiracleSports]

Haha. Im a pleasantly surprised man

All i can say is. I believe i got one of the worst cases made. But somehow from the offers i am receiving. Its not that bad

USA folks. U guys will get the gd cases. Trust me

I'm guessing you're keeping the Jabari RC and AD for now. As for the Millsap, is it an all star patch piece therefore you're keeping it also? :D Anyways good luck on your sales buddy.

[thekiddfan]

Yeah buddy. I really like the AD. Lets chat on pm!

[WaiverWire]

Honest question, which would you rather have?

This Larry Bird Patch Auto from Exquisite /100 for $138 (and money in your pocket)
2004 05 Upper Deck Exquisite Larry Bird 100 Auto Celtics Patch | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-05-Upper-Deck-Exquisite-LARRY-BIRD-100-Auto-Celtics-Patch-/381489802097?hash=item58d2906b71%3Ag%3AGr4AAOSwbdpWa0Xu&nma=true&si=rUx%252B2TrWwgupPeVXa0zOrct6c7w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
OR
The Eminence Larry Bird Patch Auto /1 for over $500 (with no money in your pocket).
Panini Eminence Larry Bird Silver Metal Roy Auto 1 1 One of One Celtics Patch | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PANINI-EMINENCE-LARRY-BIRD-SILVER-METAL-ROY-AUTO-1-1-ONE-OF-ONE-CELTICS-PATCH-/231784603309?hash=item35f7705ead:g:-foAAOSwhkRWb9RH)

????

[xavieronly1]

Honest question, which would you rather have?

This Larry Bird Patch Auto from Exquisite /100 for $138 (and money in your pocket)
2004 05 Upper Deck Exquisite Larry Bird 100 Auto Celtics Patch | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-05-Upper-Deck-Exquisite-LARRY-BIRD-100-Auto-Celtics-Patch-/381489802097?hash=item58d2906b71%3Ag%3AGr4AAOSwbdpWa0Xu&nma=true&si=rUx%252B2TrWwgupPeVXa0zOrct6c7w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
OR
The Eminence Larry Bird Patch Auto /1 for over $500 (with no money in your pocket).
Panini Eminence Larry Bird Silver Metal Roy Auto 1 1 One of One Celtics Patch | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PANINI-EMINENCE-LARRY-BIRD-SILVER-METAL-ROY-AUTO-1-1-ONE-OF-ONE-CELTICS-PATCH-/231784603309?hash=item35f7705ead:g:-foAAOSwhkRWb9RH)

????

I take this one if I just want a Larry Bird auto/tag.

2013-14 National Treasures LARRY BIRD Autograph #4/5 Jersey Tag Patch Relic Auto (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-14-National-Treasures-LARRY-BIRD-Autograph-4-5-Jersey-Tag-Patch-Relic-Auto-/252157381298?hash=item3ab5c04ab2:g:X1wAAOSwr81UT8Nt)

[ninjacookies]

Haha. Im a pleasantly surprised man

All i can say is. I believe i got one of the worst cases made. But somehow from the offers i am receiving. Its not that bad

USA folks. U guys will get the gd cases. Trust me

It's because you're the first one on the market. Happens with every release and initial prices. Good on you for cashing in fast, but the sentiment won't be the same for guys busting and listing this stuff one or two weeks from now.

[kobemagee29]

I said it weeks ago. You would be better off buying a older case of exquisite then this stuff. At least you can pull MJ autos and lebrons and kobes.

[Zacy87]

Would love to see the return on the busted boxes... none of those cards are going to sell for over $800 each.

This is definitely a risky bet that is not in the customers favor.

That bird will sell for 1k or more

[goldenegg1]

Haha. Im a pleasantly surprised man

All i can say is. I believe i got one of the worst cases made. But somehow from the offers i am receiving. Its not that bad

USA folks. U guys will get the gd cases. Trust me


Topps loads up the Asian versions of their products and apparently Panini does the opposite? Sounds like a win win for the card companies and a screw job for their customers.

[DajuanWagner]

Haha. Im a pleasantly surprised man

All i can say is. I believe i got one of the worst cases made. But somehow from the offers i am receiving. Its not that bad

USA folks. U guys will get the gd cases. Trust me



I assume "gd" stands for good cases and not what I am really thinking, right??

[IronMonkey415]

probably the "God Damn"

[champs]

That card is Gorgeous, would love to have it but it appears it is heading toward the G range, Damn! Can't wait to see some of this cracked, going to be another fun week in the hobby! Oh did I post this in the wrong section or is this just for negative thoughts? LOL

[paul06901]

Haha. Im a pleasantly surprised man

All i can say is. I believe i got one of the worst cases made. But somehow from the offers i am receiving. Its not that bad

USA folks. U guys will get the gd cases. Trust me

The only reason you're getting good offers is because you have them listed so quickly. First few cards listed on eBay. You know this, because you do this with every product you open. The same unfair advantage that Asian breakers get for every product.




Generally speaking, I'm interested to see how many relists we see from eBay sales of singles for this product. I can see many auctions being shilled by the sellers. I can also see many auctions being shilled by bidders with no intent to pay, possibly to price-fix their own singles. This set is the most overrated and overpriced set in the history of sportscards. With that said, you can be sure that people who buy into this are going to try to protect their investment as much as possible, because if the secondary market truly depicted value ... we shouldn't see much activity over $500 with the exception of some of the top hits.


Beware when bidding or estimating values when using eBay auctions for this stuff, it will be manipulated like nothing we've seen before!

[Pete]

I take this one if I just want a Larry Bird auto/tag.

2013-14 National Treasures LARRY BIRD Autograph #4/5 Jersey Tag Patch Relic Auto (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-14-National-Treasures-LARRY-BIRD-Autograph-4-5-Jersey-Tag-Patch-Relic-Auto-/252157381298?hash=item3ab5c04ab2:g:X1wAAOSwr81UT8Nt)

Love the treasured tags design... would rather have that card all day !

[MeetJSquared]

That card is Gorgeous, would love to have it but it appears it is heading toward the G range, Damn! Can't wait to see some of this cracked, going to be another fun week in the hobby! Oh did I post this in the wrong section or is this just for negative thoughts? LOL

Honest thoughts can be negative but nothing wrong with some positive ones as well.

It is a bloodbath, and will continue to be, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see the breaks that will happen.

Some look nice, most look like mixes of other products, but damn those gold pens are horrendous.:doh:

[airball]

Honest thoughts can be negative but nothing wrong with some positive ones as well.

It is a bloodbath, and will continue to be, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see the breaks that will happen.

Some look nice, most look like mixes of other products, but damn those gold pens are horrendous.:doh:

pen runs out of ink.. damnit panini!

https://paniniamerica.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/panini-america-eminence-basketball-release-peek8.jpg?w=700&h=

https://paniniamerica.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/panini-america-eminence-basketball-release-peek43.jpg?w=700&h=

[jstasyk1121]

Honest question, which would you rather have?

This Larry Bird Patch Auto from Exquisite /100 for $138 (and money in your pocket)
2004 05 Upper Deck Exquisite Larry Bird 100 Auto Celtics Patch | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-05-Upper-Deck-Exquisite-LARRY-BIRD-100-Auto-Celtics-Patch-/381489802097?hash=item58d2906b71%3Ag%3AGr4AAOSwbdpWa0Xu&nma=true&si=rUx%252B2TrWwgupPeVXa0zOrct6c7w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
OR
The Eminence Larry Bird Patch Auto /1 for over $500 (with no money in your pocket).
Panini Eminence Larry Bird Silver Metal Roy Auto 1 1 One of One Celtics Patch | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PANINI-EMINENCE-LARRY-BIRD-SILVER-METAL-ROY-AUTO-1-1-ONE-OF-ONE-CELTICS-PATCH-/231784603309?hash=item35f7705ead:g:-foAAOSwhkRWb9RH)

????

well one is /100 and one is 1/1...wouldnt you expect it to sell for way more?? i dont really get the comparison...

[UltimateDeron]

well one is /100 and one is 1/1...wouldnt you expect it to sell for way more?? i dont really get the comparison...

He's saying that even though the card is a 1/1 he'd still rather have the /100.. Which I would agree with if the patch on the /100 was better. I love that 04-05 Exquisite AP /100 set.

[jstasyk1121]

He's saying that even though the card is a 1/1 he'd still rather have the /100.. Which I would agree with if the patch on the /100 was better. I love that 04-05 Exquisite AP /100 set.

well sure...sometimes patches on higher #d cards are nicer...it happens...i think this set is hot garbage all around basically...but its still a 1/1 auto of bird...which is probably more sought after overall than a /100 of same player...

[MeetJSquared]

well sure...sometimes patches on higher #d cards are nicer...it happens...i think this set is hot garbage all around basically...but its still a 1/1 auto of bird...which is probably more sought after overall than a /100 of same player...

Maybe, but I think if you polled it, I think Exquisite wins out.

I'd want the Eminence simply to sell it, then buy a Bird and Magic Exquisite /100 and still have money left over.

[jstasyk1121]

Maybe, but I think if you polled it, I think Exquisite wins out.

I'd want the Eminence simply to sell it, then buy a Bird and Magic Exquisite /100 and still have money left over.

i guess but i think alot of ppl just love love love anything exquisite so its more about the love for that and that the same people all want to hate this so much....

if you gave me $500 and said i could get /100 bird and have $350 left or get the 1/1 Bird from Eminence...im taking the 1/1...cuz might never get another shot at it...im sure the /100s come up fairly often....

(and i know this will sell for more than the $500 its at now...just saying)

or if i am a Bird collector...im taking the 1/1 and worrying about the /100 at another time...

if just a random collector and want a nice auto of one of the greats...then absolutely ill take the /100...cuz i dont need to spend $500(or like $1200 which this will prob go up to) just to get my Bird auto...

[KvnKvnKvn]

[QUOTE=airball;10234611]pen runs out of ink.. damnit panini!

$5500, should have a new marker for ever autograph. hahah

[xavieronly1]

i guess but i think alot of ppl just love love love anything exquisite so its more about the love for that and that the same people all want to hate this so much....

if you gave me $500 and said i could get /100 bird and have $350 left or get the 1/1 Bird from Eminence...im taking the 1/1...cuz might never get another shot at it...im sure the /100s come up fairly often....

(and i know this will sell for more than the $500 its at now...just saying)

or if i am a Bird collector...im taking the 1/1 and worrying about the /100 at another time...

if just a random collector and want a nice auto of one of the greats...then absolutely ill take the /100...cuz i dont need to spend $500(or like $1200 which this will prob go up to) just to get my Bird auto...

This is why I give everyone another example (Larry Bird NT auto tag /5).

Would you consider to pay x3 just because it is /1 and from a higher priced product? You still get the tag and the auto. (I assume the design does not play major role in this case)

[jstasyk1121]

This is why I give everyone another example (Larry Bird NT auto tag /5).

Would you consider to pay x3 just because it is /1 and from a higher priced product? You still get the tag and the auto. (I assume the design does not play major role in this case)

me personally i would take like a /25 from flawless for less than $100 probably...just to have a Bird auto...if im a Bird fan/PC guy then i still want the 1/1 over the /5...if i was like a serious collector and big spender(i am far from that)...i would cough up the dough for the 1/1 of him from the crazy overrated set...rather than one that is /5 ....i am just making the argument that while this price is a bit inflated...i dont think its gonna be insanely inflated...if a /100 goes for $140 and a /5 goes for $220 than a 1/1 from a super high end to me would be $500 or so....this being release day and the biggest card listed so far...adds a premium for sure...so it will prob double up to $1k...but every release has that all the time...

im sure the other cards he listed that are /10 are gonna go for 5x what other EXQ or NT or Immac/flawless of same guys are going for...cuz this is the new flashy item on the market...

[jstasyk1121]

although that Bill Walton is up to $36 already...haha...yikes...no card like that should ever be in a product like this...but thats an impossible idea.

there will always be a "worst hit"...or a group that is the bottom tier....

if you got rid of the waltons/mchales/milsaps/korvers/teagues....then all the sudden the bottom tier is Malone/tmac/nash/g.hill and so on...and those cards become the worst hits and then those would be the low selling cards...but the product would cost $8k instead of $6k...lol...that is what 15/16 Eminence will be!!!

[inopethflames]

these threads are always funny on the high-end products because its always the same thing.

1. people who cant afford the product bash it because they cant afford it. if they made a million per year they wouldnt be complaining about it.

2. people who arent opening it loudly proclaim what resale prices will be & 'should' be. the larry bird 1/1 'should' be $500, it 'might' be $1.5k now, but it 'will' be $600-$800 in the future. people say what prices 'should' be in their opinion when the actual prices will be multiple times that price because this way they can feel smarter than the buyer since they wouldnt be paying those prices, at least when they write or talk about it.

3. 9 cases out of 700 or whatever means that panini has made sure to keep the best boxes for america. we know that because .01% of the cases have been opened. if someone can prove that panini purposely favors one area of the world over another and cases arent random then you should sue panini and the nba because you would be do everyone a service and we can all get some money from a class action lawsuit.

4. nothing ever beats exquisite. everything is a ripoff of exquisite, exquisite is the best, etc etc etc. exquisite was $550 for 5 cards of which 2 were totally worthless base cards except for the top 3. that was a joke. most of the cards looked great, but upper deck couldnt stay in the nba business. if they still had a liscense most likely exquisite would now cost $5k a box, not $500. when something is gone people only remember the best parts and purposely ignore the lesser things. also 08-09 exquisite boxes had a really stupid layout where everything was basically revealed once the box was open leaving no anticipation.

[MFaulkCollector]

these threads are always funny on the high-end products because its always the same thing.

1. people who cant afford the product bash it because they cant afford it. if they made a million per year they wouldnt be complaining about it.

2. people who arent opening it loudly proclaim what resale prices will be & 'should' be. the larry bird 1/1 'should' be $500, it 'might' be $1.5k now, but it 'will' be $600-$800 in the future. people say what prices 'should' be in their opinion when the actual prices will be multiple times that price because this way they can feel smarter than the buyer since they wouldnt be paying those prices, at least when they write or talk about it.

3. 9 cases out of 700 or whatever means that panini has made sure to keep the best boxes for america. we know that because .01% of the cases have been opened. if someone can prove that panini purposely favors one area of the world over another and cases arent random then you should sue panini and the nba because you would be do everyone a service and we can all get some money from a class action lawsuit.

4. nothing ever beats exquisite. everything is a ripoff of exquisite, exquisite is the best, etc etc etc. exquisite was $550 for 5 cards of which 2 were totally worthless base cards except for the top 3. that was a joke. most of the cards looked great, but upper deck couldnt stay in the nba business. if they still had a liscense most likely exquisite would now cost $5k a box, not $500. when something is gone people only remember the best parts and purposely ignore the lesser things. also 08-09 exquisite boxes had a really stupid layout where everything was basically revealed once the box was open leaving no anticipation.

perfectly stated on all accounts

[WaiverWire]

1. people who cant afford the product bash it because they cant afford it.



To be fair, there are plenty of people that can afford it that bash it. Rich and poor are allowed to hate on Eminence.

[BestRCs]

these threads are always funny on the high-end products because its always the same thing.

1. people who cant afford the product bash it because they cant afford it. if they made a million per year they wouldnt be complaining about it.

2. people who arent opening it loudly proclaim what resale prices will be & 'should' be. the larry bird 1/1 'should' be $500, it 'might' be $1.5k now, but it 'will' be $600-$800 in the future. people say what prices 'should' be in their opinion when the actual prices will be multiple times that price because this way they can feel smarter than the buyer since they wouldnt be paying those prices, at least when they write or talk about it.

3. 9 cases out of 700 or whatever means that panini has made sure to keep the best boxes for america. we know that because .01% of the cases have been opened. if someone can prove that panini purposely favors one area of the world over another and cases arent random then you should sue panini and the nba because you would be do everyone a service and we can all get some money from a class action lawsuit.

4. nothing ever beats exquisite. everything is a ripoff of exquisite, exquisite is the best, etc etc etc. exquisite was $550 for 5 cards of which 2 were totally worthless base cards except for the top 3. that was a joke. most of the cards looked great, but upper deck couldnt stay in the nba business. if they still had a liscense most likely exquisite would now cost $5k a box, not $500. when something is gone people only remember the best parts and purposely ignore the lesser things. also 08-09 exquisite boxes had a really stupid layout where everything was basically revealed once the box was open leaving no anticipation.


Call you Moses because you strait came down with the commandments for the basketball section. Lol.

[xavieronly1]

these threads are always funny on the high-end products because its always the same thing.

1. people who cant afford the product bash it because they cant afford it. if they made a million per year they wouldnt be complaining about it.


Was this hobby created for millionaires originally?

And how do you know people who bash this product can't afford Eminence? Having $5k is not like a "rich" thing.

[bmc398]

these threads are always funny on the high-end products because its always the same thing.

1. people who cant afford the product bash it because they cant afford it. if they made a million per year they wouldnt be complaining about it.

2. people who arent opening it loudly proclaim what resale prices will be & 'should' be. the larry bird 1/1 'should' be $500, it 'might' be $1.5k now, but it 'will' be $600-$800 in the future. people say what prices 'should' be in their opinion when the actual prices will be multiple times that price because this way they can feel smarter than the buyer since they wouldnt be paying those prices, at least when they write or talk about it.

3. 9 cases out of 700 or whatever means that panini has made sure to keep the best boxes for america. we know that because .01% of the cases have been opened. if someone can prove that panini purposely favors one area of the world over another and cases arent random then you should sue panini and the nba because you would be do everyone a service and we can all get some money from a class action lawsuit.

4. nothing ever beats exquisite. everything is a ripoff of exquisite, exquisite is the best, etc etc etc. exquisite was $550 for 5 cards of which 2 were totally worthless base cards except for the top 3. that was a joke. most of the cards looked great, but upper deck couldnt stay in the nba business. if they still had a liscense most likely exquisite would now cost $5k a box, not $500. when something is gone people only remember the best parts and purposely ignore the lesser things. also 08-09 exquisite boxes had a really stupid layout where everything was basically revealed once the box was open leaving no anticipation.

I don't think you are totally wrong about SOME of the bashers....but as somebody who could afford this product all it looks to me like is a moneygrab and that Panini will officially do anything to fleece consumers of their hard earned money.

It's too big of a gamble in my book to be tried....but there are nice cards in here for sure. Problem is, a lot of the cuts won't even cover their spot/slot price say in a group break. The real money will be in the metal RCs and the Metal autos of superstars....but even then I don't see a Durant auto with $15 worth of Silver in it moving the needle that much....and that would likely be a box hit. Kobe and some of the other top tier guys will still struggle to get you half the box price back.

Why bust stuff that costs multiple mortgage payments when the value outside of like 15-20 cards in the product just isn't going to be there?

[kobemagee29]

perfectly stated on all accounts

Perfectly stated, I don't think so. Someone's opinion which I think is way off.
Saying people that can't afford are bashing it is b.s
Exquisite will never be replaced by panini & if UD still had its license, it wouldn't be anywhere close to 5000 a box.
Truth is panini could put pieces of REAL dog #@#@#@#@ in the boxes and group breakers and others would still buy it. Thats the problem with this hobby.

[gomiamigo]

Robbery is taking something from someone against their will by violence or intimidation. This is either fleecing or separating fools from the burden of money.

A fool and his money are lucky enough to have gotten together in the first place.

[gomiamigo]

perfectly stated on all accounts

The top 2 cards in Exquisite weren't always base cards, that's silly. My 2007-08 2-case breaks I got boxes like base, RAP, Auto 6/10 of Pierce/Garnett, dual patch card, and RAP.

My Durant RAP box had 2 base in it, as did others, but certainly not all.

[byronscott4ever]

5. And people bashing it will later hype up their break for sale

[fdjizm]

I don't think you are totally wrong about SOME of the bashers....but as somebody who could afford this product all it looks to me like is a moneygrab and that Panini will officially do anything to fleece consumers of their hard earned money.

It's too big of a gamble in my book to be tried....but there are nice cards in here for sure. Problem is, a lot of the cuts won't even cover their spot/slot price say in a group break. The real money will be in the metal RCs and the Metal autos of superstars....but even then I don't see a Durant auto with $15 worth of Silver in it moving the needle that much....and that would likely be a box hit. Kobe and some of the other top tier guys will still struggle to get you half the box price back.

Why bust stuff that costs multiple mortgage payments when the value outside of like 15-20 cards in the product just isn't going to be there?

Agreed, I was slightly interested but after thinking about it and checking the product specs out, it's just a bad bet all around regardless of whether or not you can afford a box. Too much risk for little gain easy to see you're going to take a bath on this stuff.

[johno654]

I'm really only curious about the cut autos. I really wish Topps or Panini would put out a historical product that is decent

[ldsports]

I think it will be very interesting to see where the top non 1/1 cards end up selling. What will the Wiggins autos go for? If these dont bring the price of a box (which I am guessing they will bring about half), this will be a tough open to ever win on. I like to open high end and am seriously considering this, but I need to feel like I have to have at least a fighting chance to have a "winner" box.

[freethrowtommy]

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

How f'in hard is that?

If nobody buys it, they don't make it.

It really is that simple.

The fact of the matter is, people ARE buying it so they keep making it. People can complain all they want and from the looks of this thread, there are plenty of people who like to complain.

[Sauceman]

Only on blowout can people be chastised for how they decide to spend their money.

[WaiverWire]

If everyone kept their mouth shut, this forum would be really boring.

But I do love the tough people who say "if you don't like it then don't buy it Bro"

Why do the tough guys read threads if they know there is going to be discussion? Oh, they probably just don't like to feel judged. Hurt feelings n all.

[pgisback]

If everyone kept their mouth shut, this forum would be really boring.

But I do love the tough people who say "if you don't like it then don't buy it Bro"

Why do the tough guys read threads if they know there is going to be discussion? Oh, they probably just don't like to feel judged. Hurt feelings n all.

Goes both ways

[Sauceman]

If everyone kept their mouth shut, this forum would be really boring.

But I do love the tough people who say "if you don't like it then don't buy it Bro"

Why do the tough guys read threads if they know there is going to be discussion? Oh, they probably just don't like to feel judged. Hurt feelings n all.

Discussion is great. A member being blamed for the downfall of the hobby is a little much. I cannot even come close to affording this stuff, so I am looking forward to seeing ballers break it!

[freethrowtommy]

If everyone kept their mouth shut, this forum would be really boring.

But I do love the tough people who say "if you don't like it then don't buy it Bro"

Why do the tough guys read threads if they know there is going to be discussion? Oh, they probably just don't like to feel judged. Hurt feelings n all.

There are some great points in here... like this one:

That card is fugly. From the fat, dark, streaky auto to the unbelievably amateur-looking foil curve. Blergh.

Then we get to useless ones, like this one:

Be ready for non paying bidders.

But "tough guys"... arg!

[NotOriginal]

There are some nice cards in here. The championship tags, all-star jerseys, and USA jerseys. I don't think the silver or gold bars look good, although I like the horizontal platinum cards.

Overall the design just seems lacking. Immaculate and Flawless look much better designed imo

[dlouisb1313]

Well there's already been 1 group breaker on this site, and I'm sure there will be a couple more, say they don't want to break this then what does that show you. Group breaks I think are awesome,but this is the 1st time they've said enough is enough.

[hairyangryfella]

Discussion is great. A member being blamed for the downfall of the hobby is a little much. I cannot even come close to affording this stuff, so I am looking forward to seeing ballers break it!
*contributing to

[WaiverWire]

There are some great points in here... like this one:

Then we get to useless ones, like this one:

But "tough guys"... arg!

That's the great thing about these threads. People have different perspectives and enjoy different viewpoints. Thats why it's foolish to tell people to keep quiet or marginalize -- because then you lose viewpoints. But some people just aren't sophisticated enough to allow opinions that differ from their own.

[bustsomewax]

I wouldnt be surprised if this is a reason Panini eventually loses an NBA license. I hope the NBA raises an eyebrow at this.

[Muzzy66]

Here are some of my thoughts on this specifc product, from what I've seen so far...

On the Bird card

1)The background seems to fade from black -> green -> white top half of the card, but then in the bottom half it's all black/green. This gives an inconsistent look that makes it look like two pieces of card stuck together. If the diagonal fade-to-white part continued past the second foil line to the bottom of the card, it would look so much better

2) In the top left corner you have the patch window, the 'ROY' writing (horizontal lettering, vertical spanning) and the 'Signatures' writing (vertical lettering and spanning). The inconsistency in how that lettering runs just makes the whole thing look awkward, whole having those two words squashed in to the left of the patch window makes it all look cluttered.

3) The huge chunk of foil at the top of the card, the strip of foil across the middle, and the foil shield - too much foil. The end result is similar to what happens when car companies put huge, thick chrome strips on their cars - it becomes tacky very quickly. Foil can look really fantastic when it's used sparingly - a neat, thin line of foil an really add presence to a card.

4) The patterns in the foil - there is a'spider web' effect in the foil at the top, and a 'rope' effect in the second foil piece across the middle. The two featuring on the one card gives a look of inconsistency. If both foil sections had the same patterning it would look much, much better. As it is, the two foil sections look like they were supposed to be on different cards.

5) The gold ink auto is something that can look really spectacular IMO when utilized correctly. I think Upper Deck absolutely aced the gold pen on their UD Black, Exquisite and All-Time Greats products. I think Panini aced it pretty well also on Noir, because the fairly plain black background create a strong contrast and causes the gold pen to really pop and stand out. On this card there are a few issues with the auto. Firstly, the card design is so cluttered that there is not enough room to fit a large auto like this without going over the top of stuff, so I count that as a fail in card design. They should have made a decision - cluttered card design and smaller auto, or more blank space on the card and large auto. They went with large auto and clutter, which looks terrible. Secondly (as a result of the above) the auto covers up the "Larry Bird Celtics" writing, which looks horrendous. Thirdly, the gold auto doesn't have nearly enough contrast against the dark green background, which takes emphasis off the auto and makes it look dull and boring. Fourthly, the auto on many of the cards seems to be faded, like the pen is running out of ink. Wouldn't be as noticeable if the auto wasn't so large and thick, or if the background was more plain (black or white).

6) The traditional foil "one of one" writing is barely visible on top of the foil area on the top right of the card

7) The card background (with the green/white fade) seems to try to go for a classic look, but the smothering of foil screams futuristic tech. The two do not blend.

8) The player image isn't a terrible one - it has a very classic / vintage look. This would look perfect on a card with a more conservative and classic look, but it doesn't suit a card that is so busy / tech heavy. A card design like this needs a more aggressive action shot to work.

9) The size of the tag / window is IMHO way too small for a one-of-one in such an expensive product. Should be at least 50% bigger. The small window kinda makes this look like an entry level patch/tag card, and is not befitting of a 1-of-1.

10) The foil are on the top right of the card - if you look closely, the curve is not smooth. It's erratic, as if the foil section has been torn away roughly from the rest of the card. I'm not sure if that's what they were aiming for, but if so it looks terrible. It's obvious enough to make it noticeable, but subtle enough that it doesn't look intentional. Horrible.

11) The back of the card looks oh so boring. It looks like what I would expect to see if looking at the back of a card that comes from a $40 - $50 a box product.

12) On the plus side, I like the 'shield' branding on the bottom right. I think that adds a classy touch.

13) I know the design is different, but when I see the dark backgrounds, the abundance of foil, and the heavy patterning within the foil...I just keep seeing UD black:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=2005/06+ud+black&safe=active&espvd=2&biw=944&bih=927&tbm=shop&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigz8Wgld_JAhXB3aYKHclaB2MQ_AUIBygC&dpr=1#q=2007/08+ud+black&safe=active&tbs=vw:g&tbm=shop&start=39&spd=13977217221696732359

I know the detailing is different, but for some reason it's the first thing that pops in to my head when I see this card.


On the metal cards

1) Panini are pushing this 'metal card' think like it's such a huge deal, but haven't they been putting pieces of 14K gold in Gold Standard for $150 a box since the 2010/11 season? The pieces that are in this product look like they are 2x (maybe 4x at most) the size of the pieces that were in the Gold Rush cards, and gold standard also featured 10 cards per box, so why does this product cost roughly 40x the price???

I suspect the answer to that is that the gold pieces are much more readily available in this product (at 1 per box at least) and hence the price increase. That makes sense, but then wouldn't it be better to just make those gold pieces more rare? The result would be two fold:

* Makes the cards harder to get, and hence more desirable
* Reduces the cost of the product, so more people can get access to it

Instead by making these "gold piece" a 'one per box' affair, all Panini is doing is reducing their value. Rarity if the insert in general is not there, so people will only chase the high profile players - all the others will be worth nothing.

Hell Gold standard even offered cards that were one entire piece of 24K gold, so compared to that a little block of gold isn't that big a deal.


2) For the most part I do really like the look of these metal cards, but one thing kills it - too much bloomin' foil.

Take this one for example:
https://paniniamerica.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/panini-america-eminence-preview50.jpg?w=587

I love this entire card design EXCEPT for one thing. The chunk of foil at the top left - why?!?! Not only does this fail the "use in moderation" concept (i.e. too much foil reduces the wow effect of having foil), but this foil 'blob' also blends in with the foil trim around the patch window piece, which looks terrible. It's a shame because try to imagine the card without that huge drop of foil - it would look utterly stunning.

If anything the gold ones seem to look even worse, because the fact that the foil is gold makes it look all the more tacky when you use too much of it.

https://paniniamerica.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/panini-america-eminence-preview37.jpg?w=600

It also makes the gold auto stand out much less, since the whole card is smothered with too much bloomin gold.

This particular silver design I think looks much, much better:

https://paniniamerica.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/dirk-eminence.jpg?w=603

There is still a lot of foil, but it just seems to be integrated in a way that makes more sense. The majority of the foil is at the bottom of the card (so it doesn't feel smothered) and there is only one pattern etched in the foil (the circles) so it looks more consistent. There is also a nice bit empty area where the auto is, which helps to make the auto look like it actually belongs there. This is a nice looking card - if every card from the product had this type of design coherence, I would be thrilled.


The autos
i think the general auto cards in the product are, I think, quite nice.

This T-Mac card, I think looks quite nice - it's a bit busy, but it's got a very unique look that cannot be mistaken for any other product:

Panini America Eminence Preview15 | The Official Panini America Blog (http://blog.paniniamerica.net/2015/12/02/into-eminence-panini-america-offers-long-first-look-at-new-high-end-release/panini-america-eminence-preview15/)

Likewise this Dr J card:

Panini America Eminence Basketball Release Peek32 | The Official Panini America Blog (http://blog.paniniamerica.net/2015/12/14/panini-america-delivers-a-final-pre-release-peek-at-eminence-basketball-gallery/panini-america-eminence-basketball-release-peek32/)

Both are nice designs IMO, though the auto on the DR J one is too smudged/blurry which kills it a bit.


Patch cards

I think these mostly look pretty nice. The All star patches look quite unique, and IMO are pretty well designed:

Panini America Eminence Preview75 | The Official Panini America Blog (http://blog.paniniamerica.net/2015/12/02/into-eminence-panini-america-offers-long-first-look-at-new-high-end-release/panini-america-eminence-preview75/)


The jumbo patches also look to me like Noir and Immaculate had a love child, but I think the combination looks nice enough to be forgivable and stand strong as a product in it's own right:

Panini America Eminence Preview5 | The Official Panini America Blog (http://blog.paniniamerica.net/2015/12/02/into-eminence-panini-america-offers-long-first-look-at-new-high-end-release/panini-america-eminence-preview5/)

On the whole I think the patch cards look quite nice, but they don't seem to really offer anything that exciting to make me want them any more than a nice patch from Noir, Immaculate or even LUXE. On their own they stand up well, but once you consider the massive price jump there is really nothing appealing enough about the patches to justify me jumping up from Immac / Noir.


Cut Autos
I think it oes without saying that these are going to be the top chase cards of the set, and in all honesty I could see them selling for huge amounts of money because their sentimental / historical significance can extend well beyond just basketball card collecting.

You don't just have a signature from a sports person here - you have an autograph from a person of great historical significance, on a very rare historical document, from a person who is no longer alive to produce any further autographs. A card like that can general appeal to a whole other market, and the fact that some of these cards have nothing to do with basketball means all kinds of people might come across them at auctions and on ebay. Considering that there have been Jordan/Lebron cards that have sold for well in excess of $15,000...it's not at all impossible to fathom the possibility that some of those cards could sell for more than $40,000 on their own.

Considering the overall lack of availability of these documents, I imagine they would be very, very rare cards. Not at all surprised to hear that 9 boxes only produced one - wouldn't surprise me if they are found one in 10 at best. They might well end up the greatest and most valuable chase cards in collector card history. I would imagine that sourcing the original documents would not have been cheap at all, and i imagine that this is a big reason why the boxes are so incredibly expensive.


Conclusive thoughts
At the end of the day, Eminence is a product that's going to sell based on two things - the Platinum cards and the Cut Autos. They are really the only two things that are unique to this product, that might be desirable enough to convince somebody to fork out $6k on a box of 8 cards.

Both of those look like they are going to be extremely rare, and to be brutally honest spending $60k trying to chase a platinum card probably makes very little sense when you can buy some very nice platinum Cartier jewelry for significantly less than that.

To a lesser extent, you might have a few people who will buy boxes to chase a gold card or two, since they appear to come one per box roughly. But then again if that's all you want, you could probably buy one of those gold cards on ebay with easy for under $1,500 - so may as well just buy the card.

That leaves the Cut autos as really the one major chase prospect. There are certain to be some collectors who have deep pockets and a love of history, who would have no problems spending $60k - $80k breaking boxes of this in hope of hitting one of the really big cut auto cards (e.g. Napoleon Bonaparte). That alone is probably going to be enough to make sur the product sells, albeit to a very small/niche market.

Once you go past the Cut autos and metal cards, there is really nothing at all that separates the rest of the cards here from those of any other high end product from Panini. The regular autos and patches don't really stand out significant enough to justify paying a premium for one of them over something from NT/Immac/Noir/Flawless so these cards will like nosedive in value in a huge way to the point where they are worth probably only a tad more than flawless.

At least that's my take on the product! Time will tell the rest.

Honestly I felt flawless was hard enough to justify (with the stone cards and packaging really being the only special thing about the product), but I do feel that this product, with the cut autos, probably does more to justify it's price tag than Flawless does. This is about double the price of flawless, but the cut auto's have to to be at least twice as rare/valuable as the biggest selling point in Flawless (diamond cards).

Not saying that I agree with the pricing - to me personally, I think it's ridiculous. Just saying that I do see the market there for it.

[Jblaw1]

these threads are always funny on the high-end products because its always the same thing.

1. people who cant afford the product bash it because they cant afford it. if they made a million per year they wouldnt be complaining about it.

2. people who arent opening it loudly proclaim what resale prices will be & 'should' be. the larry bird 1/1 'should' be $500, it 'might' be $1.5k now, but it 'will' be $600-$800 in the future. people say what prices 'should' be in their opinion when the actual prices will be multiple times that price because this way they can feel smarter than the buyer since they wouldnt be paying those prices, at least when they write or talk about it.

3. 9 cases out of 700 or whatever means that panini has made sure to keep the best boxes for america. we know that because .01% of the cases have been opened. if someone can prove that panini purposely favors one area of the world over another and cases arent random then you should sue panini and the nba because you would be do everyone a service and we can all get some money from a class action lawsuit.

4. nothing ever beats exquisite. everything is a ripoff of exquisite, exquisite is the best, etc etc etc. exquisite was $550 for 5 cards of which 2 were totally worthless base cards except for the top 3. that was a joke. most of the cards looked great, but upper deck couldnt stay in the nba business. if they still had a liscense most likely exquisite would now cost $5k a box, not $500. when something is gone people only remember the best parts and purposely ignore the lesser things. also 08-09 exquisite boxes had a really stupid layout where everything was basically revealed once the box was open leaving no anticipation.


Well I could certainly afford it, I just do t see anything here to make me want to open this dumpster Fire.

I hope OP does well but not much here that's is wow factor for the price. I buy immaculate for sneak peaks and premium patch autos, and treasures for tags and logoman autos. If I want precious metals Id but that not cards.

Only thing I could see that would be different to make this a bit would be something like experience cards. Go with panini to meet Kobe and see sign cards, or KD or go and make cards with panini and make your own patch card or something. Then I'd buy some:).

[Muzzy66]

To be honest, I think Panini are really making high end cards painful these days.

* A box of National Treasures goes for about US $600 give or take. You generally get one nice card (usually worth $100 - $200) and then the next best card in the box is rarely worth more than $40 - $50. If you get the case hit you'll usually get a card worth around $300 - $350 which still doesn't come close to paying off the box, let alone the case. If you go through several cases then you might be lucky enough to sore a huge hit worth > $1,000 but that probably won't unless you break 3+ cases, by which time you have spent a good $6,000 or so. Overall looking at probably about a 20% - 25% return on average.

* A box of Immaculate is pretty much as above, only the return tends to be ever so slightly higher.

A box of flawless probably also nets you about 25% back on average

Honestly I think the only high end products in recent years that can actually return what you pay for a box (reasonably consistently) are Upper Deck Exquisite (2011/12, 2012/13, 2013/14) and Noir.

Noir can currently be had for ~$650 a box and will typically net you at least two nice hits for every box opened. It's pretty rare to open a box and not get a least one card $200+ card, and almost every box also has a pretty nice second card worth at least $100. That means you're usually getting at least 50% return from just two cards, so by the time you add up the rest of the hits and base you're usually getting back what you paid at a minimum.

Exquisite can be had for around $350 a box (2011/12, 2013/14) or $450 a box (2012/13). If you check enough breaks of this stuff, it becomes clear that the product is very well (and very consistently) collated. Every case usually features:

* One great box that returns $500 - $550+
* One good box that returns $400 - $450+
* One weak box that returns $250+

The first box will usually feature an MJ auto (guaranteed in 2011/12) or equivalently big hit

The second box will usually feature a Lebron auto (pretty much guaranteed, in 2011/12) or similarly big hit

The third box generally will not feature a big hit, but will have at least 3 or 4 nice hits (for example, it might have a Karl Malone auto, a Hakeem Auto, a Bill Russell auto AND a Rodman auto all in the one box).

If you see enough breaks you will find this pattern is incredibly consistent for Exquisite, which shows that they put a great deal of effort into making sure the product is well collated. If you open a loose box, you basically have a 2/3 of a big hit, and if you get the bad box you still get 60% - 70% of the box price back.

By comparison it seems every other product Panini makes in the high end market is guaranteed to put you at a loss unless you happen to hit an epic one-in-several-case pull.

For example, if you want that Wiggins NT RPA that's selling for $7k or so on ebay, you are probably better off buying it for $7k then trying to hit it on a box/case break. You'll probably go through at least four cases (at around $1,800 a case) before you have a half decent chance of hitting that card yourself.

I still think 13/14 Exquisite is one of the best value high end products, pound for pound, that's still around. If you buy a case (at around $1,000 give or take) you are almost certain to hit at least one card that is worth $400+ so the risk is fairly low, and yet the opportunity for huge hits (like a great MJ/LBJ shoe card, or an MJ/LBJ rookie tribute card) is there. I know some people have been against UD since they lost the NBA licence, but with 13/14 Exquisite they have done a great job of designing some of the cards so that the photos don't really make the college context obvious, for example:

http://6.kicksonfire.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/2013-14-Exquisite-Collection-Basketball-Signature-Kicks-Autograph-Shoe-Cards-Group-2c.jpg?feae65
http://6.kicksonfire.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/2013-14-Exquisite-Collection-Basketball-Signature-Kicks-Michael-Jordan-Autograph-Shoe-Cards-1d.jpg?feae65
http://5.kicksonfire.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/2013-14-Exquisite-Collection-Basketball-Signature-Kicks-Air-Jordan-V-Michael-MJ-2-630x880.jpg?feae65

The ability to get epic hits like this of MJ in a Bulls uniform (those sneaky UD guys!) is probably more appealing to me than anything that can be offered by Immaculate, NT, Noir or other Panini products. I hate to be the one to keep beating the dead horse, but if UD still had an NBA licence they would do amazing things. This UD shoe cards absolutely destroy any attempt at a "shoe card" that I've seen from Panini. Even the design of the rest of the card is just so nice, so classic - from the background, to the photo, to the autograph. Just perfect. I don't know why Panini struggle so much to get a nice design when Upper Deck seem to get it perfect so often.

[Stats]

Wow Muzzy, Those may be the most well-structured and thought out first 2 posts by any user!

[ljandkg]

these threads are always funny on the high-end products because its always the same thing.

1. people who cant afford the product bash it because they cant afford it. if they made a million per year they wouldnt be complaining about it.

2. people who arent opening it loudly proclaim what resale prices will be & 'should' be. the larry bird 1/1 'should' be $500, it 'might' be $1.5k now, but it 'will' be $600-$800 in the future. people say what prices 'should' be in their opinion when the actual prices will be multiple times that price because this way they can feel smarter than the buyer since they wouldnt be paying those prices, at least when they write or talk about it.

3. 9 cases out of 700 or whatever means that panini has made sure to keep the best boxes for america. we know that because .01% of the cases have been opened. if someone can prove that panini purposely favors one area of the world over another and cases arent random then you should sue panini and the nba because you would be do everyone a service and we can all get some money from a class action lawsuit.

4. nothing ever beats exquisite. everything is a ripoff of exquisite, exquisite is the best, etc etc etc. exquisite was $550 for 5 cards of which 2 were totally worthless base cards except for the top 3. that was a joke. most of the cards looked great, but upper deck couldnt stay in the nba business. if they still had a liscense most likely exquisite would now cost $5k a box, not $500. when something is gone people only remember the best parts and purposely ignore the lesser things. also 08-09 exquisite boxes had a really stupid layout where everything was basically revealed once the box was open leaving no anticipation.

Gospel.

And can you imagine if Panini put out a set of rookies that were the shambles of 06-07 Exquisite, when the writing didn't even fit on the card?

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE1OFg4MDg=/z/5HYAAOSwyQtVo059/$_1.JPG

[Muzzy66]

Gospel.

And can you imagine if Panini put out a set of rookies that were the shambles of 06-07 Exquisite, when the writing didn't even fit on the card?

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE1OFg4MDg=/z/5HYAAOSwyQtVo059/$_1.JPG

I don't love EVERY card that has come out of the UD Exquisite brand, but to be fair that particular RC probably looks better than any RC Panini has produced in the past 5 years.

Given the choice, I would probably rather have a REALLY nice looking card that has a slight printing flaw (like writing not fitting on the card), rather than an ugly / mediocre looking card that is of utterly perfect quality.

[ljandkg]

I don't love EVERY card that has come out of the UD Exquisite brand, but to be fair that particular RC probably looks better than any RC Panini has produced in the past 5 years.

Given the choice, I would probably rather have a REALLY nice looking card that has a slight printing flaw (like writing not fitting on the card), rather than an ugly / mediocre looking card that is of utterly perfect quality.

So you'd rather have this card with a 'slight printing flaw' (???) than a Flawless/or Immaculate RPA of utterly perfect quality?

That 06-07 was a screw up of epic proportions. Don't down play it. This is exactly what inopetheflames was talking about. Exquisite gets a pass from collectors but it was far from perfect, and in some cases, a very average high end product.

Things in the past aways seem better. That's why people constantly compare life today to 'when we were kids...'

[TBarn291]

I don't love EVERY card that has come out of the UD Exquisite brand, but to be fair that particular RC probably looks better than any RC Panini has produced in the past 5 years.

Given the choice, I would probably rather have a REALLY nice looking card that has a slight printing flaw (like writing not fitting on the card), rather than an ugly / mediocre looking card that is of utterly perfect quality.


:eek: Madness! Not even in the past month lol.

[the27guy]

:eek: Madness! Not even in the past month lol.

I happen to agree. We all love exquisite but 06-07 was the red headed step child. Panini is certainly not error proof, but most of the NT releases, immac rookies, all of the immac acetates, significantly nicer than 06 exquisite.

[celtics]

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

How f'in hard is that?

If nobody buys it, they don't make it.

It really is that simple.

The fact of the matter is, people ARE buying it so they keep making it. People can complain all they want and from the looks of this thread, there are plenty of people who like to complain.

X2 Why should Panini stop if they are continuously selling products.

[the27guy]

I have only seen the one break.... Anyone else know if any others????

[alanlam]

Why is the ink so awful? It looks like a marker that's running out of ink. It should be a gold ink pen. I haven't seen any of these in person and I can't imagine they'd give out crappy empty markers. Is the card stock just a bad match for this ink? That's a pretty big issue for a $6k product.

If I opened any of this and wanted to PC something I pulled I'd send it back and tell them to get the ink right. I imagine they'd be open to hearing/fixing complaints from someone that just gave them 6 grand....but they have no competition so NBA collectors can't bring their business elsewhere. So they'd probably just say "Sorry but the box didn't say the autos were guaranteed to not look like crap. Wanna see what our next product looks like?"

[Muzzy66]

Wow Muzzy, Those may be the most well-structured and thought out first 2 posts by any user!

Haha thanks!

To be honest I have only really been back in the card game for the past two years or so, and prior to this I hadn't been active since about 1995.

When I did get back in to it for the fun of it, I was absolutely overwhelmed by the sheer number (and cost) of the products on the market. When I was first collecting, I used to buy packs of cards, and I would dream of being able to buy an actual 30 or so pack box! Getting an autograph card was like winning the lottery, and even if it was an autograph of a no-named bench warmer you would cherish it. Memorabilia cards didn't even exist. You used to get super excited just to see a really nice and creative looking insert!

My prize card back then was a Penny Hardaway Refractor RC which was worth a forune back then - not so much now! lol

Things have just changed so much and I think it's in a good way. Card companies have so much more available - patches, tags, shoe pieces, hat pieces, acetate products, prizm technology and so much else. Yet somehow it seems incredibly rare to ever see any of that put to creative use.

To this day I struggle to find a Panini product that I like more than the college-based UD Black and Exquisite. Even without NBA uniforms I STILL prefer the UD stuff because in terms of card design they have an overwhelming tendency to just get it right.

There are so many great looking designs coming out of UD the last few years, such as...

13/14 Exquisite shoe cards:
http://beckett-www.s3.amazonaws.com/news/news-content/uploads/2014/10/James-210x300.jpg

13/14 Exquisite Rookie Ratch
http://d8bixwancjkpp.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/JamesRookiePatch.jpg

13/14 Exquisite Rookie Auto
2013-14 UD Exquisite Michael Jordan Retro Tribute Autograph BGS 9/10 auto 31/35 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-14-UD-Exquisite-Michael-Jordan-Retro-Tribute-Autograph-BGS-9-10-auto-31-35-/111850663599)

11/12 Exquisite Championship Bling
http://img.beckett.com/news/news-content/uploads/2012/09/exquisite5.png

2012/13 Exquisite 9
http://img.beckett.com/news/news-content/uploads/2013/11/Lebron16Exq-1024x682.jpg

13/14 Exquisite Year of the Horse
http://boxbreaks.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2013-14-Upper-Deck-Exquisite-Collection-Basketball-Year-of-the-Horse.jpg

13/14 UD Black Leather Books
http://blog.bcwsupplies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Jordan-Bird-DualAuto.jpg

13-14 UD Black Arena Art
http://beckett-www.s3.amazonaws.com/news/news-content/uploads/2014/03/jordarnaena.jpg

13-14 UD Black Lustrous Rookie Signatures
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY2WDEwMjQ=/z/b-AAAOSwBahVHeke/$_57.JPG

13-14 UD Black Logo Signatures
http://beckett-www.s3.amazonaws.com/news/news-content/uploads/2014/03/AlonzoMourningPatch.jpg


Hell, even the some of their base cards look 10x than most the stuff Panini is putting out these days:

http://media2.cardboardconnection.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2013-14-Exquisite-Collection-Base-Michael-Jordan--214x300.jpg

http://beckett-www.s3.amazonaws.com/news/news-content/uploads/2014/03/BlackBase.jpg


I might be alone here, but to me pretty much every card I just linked to looks nicer than most (if not all) the stuff Panini is producing in their 10 million product lineup.

Even the Panini Letterman cards are (as far as I'm aware) a completely rip off of Upper Deck:

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l571/SportscardsGalore/Basketball/BKB%20Autographs/JordanLettermanAuto.jpg


There are some cards by Panini that I really like, such as:

Noir Colour/Acetate Rookie Patch Auto's:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Q8oAAOSwnipWUn-8/s-l1600.jpg

Immaculate Acetate Patch cards
http://waxpackcity.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/0/2015-08-31-0023.jpg

Flawless USA (diamond/ruby/sapphire) cards
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTQwMFgxMDg0/z/QmkAAOSwcBhWZ5N1/$_35.JPG?set_id=880000500F

Luxe Metal frame autos
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/331662540321-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

Luxe Jumbo patches:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTQ5NFgxMTAy/z/dJEAAOSwsB9WCwh~/$_35.JPG

Preferred- any acetate booklet
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjA0WDE2MDA=/z/fdMAAOSwPcVVrHpv/$_57.JPG


But the thing is Panini has a line of maybe 30 products out there, and I struggle to pick out as many desirable sets from that entire product line as I can pick out from just two brands of Upper Deck (Black and Exquisite).

With almost every Panini brand, you basically have one (maybe two, if you're lucky) set that is really genuinely desirable - and everything else is ugly as sin or as boring as watching paint dry. Pretty much the same deal here with Eminence. Other than the cut autos and the gold brick cards, the rest of the product is completely meh.

[Muzzy66]

So you'd rather have this card with a 'slight printing flaw' (???) than a Flawless/or Immaculate RPA of utterly perfect quality?

That 06-07 was a screw up of epic proportions. Don't down play it. This is exactly what inopetheflames was talking about. Exquisite gets a pass from collectors but it was far from perfect, and in some cases, a very average high end product.

Things in the past aways seem better. That's why people constantly compare life today to 'when we were kids...'

I expect to get thoroughly flamed for this but I, personally, think that the National Treasures RPA's are one of the most overrated card designs in card collecting history.

There is absolutely nothing that screams screams "desirability" to me about this design:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/LzUAAOSwq7JUFgxb/$_35.JPG

It's not an ugly design sure, it's nice. It's unoffensive. It's reasonably elegant. But it's not exciting in any way, shape or form. It looks ok. The next year's version will look pretty much the same, but updated slightly. The next year's will again look pretty much the same, with a slightly different border.

If you have seen one NT RPA, you've seen them all.

Similarly, there is nothing at all exciting to me about this Immaculate RPA design:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/JPMAAOSwq7JULvii/$_57.JPG

Once again it is nice enough - does the job. Doesn't make me fall out of my seat, and it doesn't make my jaw drop to the floor. But it's nice.

This one from flawless - even with the red foil - absolutely bores the hell out of me. It's basically a carbon copy of the NT design but flipped on it's side, with a smaller patch window, and with red foil.

Every single year you have three high end products from Panini - NT, Immaculate and Flawless. Every single year those three products are 90% identical to the previous year.

Flawless itself is basically just National Treasures with a slight facelift and some stones embedded in.

Again, the cards look nice enough - but there is NOTHING original there. It's the same old crap over, and over, and over, and over, and over....

I think I've only ever bought one box of NT and one box of Immaculate. I pulled an Acetate auto of David Robinson from the Immaculate, which was a stunning card (numbered 50/50). I pulled a Gold Giannis Rookie Auto from the NT, which was also a pretty nice card. Every other card in both boxes was boring and worthless enough that I could have thrown them in the bin and never felt bad about it. You're really paying $600 for one card, and everything else is worthless filler. IMHO that is unacceptable in a US $600 a box product.

To make matters worse - jersey cards and sticker autos. In products that sells for US $600 a box. Seriously?!?!?! I don't know whether that makes me want to laugh or cry.

Honestly, I have felt that Panini are improving lately. Noir (all autos on card, all memorabilia are patch or tag) was a big step in the right direction.

As was Luxe IMO, since all autos are on-card, and the silver border cards are a nice unique idea (though the regular cards look a bit too much like Immaculate).

Preferred has a nice niche with it's emphasis on booklets, but is let down severely by a horrible checklist. Not uncommon to get a box where 3/4 cards are people you have never heard of, and the 4th is a tier 4 guy.

Gold Standard is a nice product that has a clear identity, so I can roll with that. 14/15 version in particular had some really nice RPA's - I think I actually prefer those to the NT ones.

Court Kings has a unique identity, so that's cool.

Gala is a novel idea, but not very well executed. They are 100% on card I believe and the silver screen autos are nice, but most of the cards just aren't that nice looking (too much black). With a bit of work thought, the brand has potential I think.

Prizm / Select / Spectra may as well all be one product since they are basically all just variations of the same old theme.

NT/Flawless likewise. Immaculate is unique enough to separate it from those, but barely.

People keep complaining about Upper Deck getting special treatment. They don't. People kiss UD's butt because people actually like the product ranges they have put out over the years.

They pay out Panini because they feel most of their designs are either ugly, unimaginative, or both.

I'm not biased one way or the other - I will flock to any product I see that draws my desire. Hence why I had no problems a few posts up listing some of the Panini cards i do really like. The reason I get frustrated is that Panini has the NBA license (and not the College license too) so they have all the power to produce amazing products - and yet the vast majority of the stuff they churn out is boring, unimaginative or just plain hideous.

Are there exceptions? Certainly. But the consistency is just not there.

Upper Deck for the past 4 years has had no NBA license, which has thoroughly crippled them by limiting their ability to get new photos, game used memorabilia, etc. They have also only produced three high end brands (Exquisite, Black, All Time Greats). Yet stil, IMHO, UD has brought out just as many great looking sets as Panini has over that stretch of time.

Look, at the end of the day this is just my personal opinion here - but it does seem like there are a lot of people out there who share the same view.

[hermanotarjeta]

Each card is 360pt?

Those aren't cards, they're boats!

[rodmanmartinez]

The only reason you're getting good offers is because you have them listed so quickly. First few cards listed on eBay. You know this, because you do this with every product you open. The same unfair advantage that Asian breakers get for every product.




Generally speaking, I'm interested to see how many relists we see from eBay sales of singles for this product. I can see many auctions being shilled by the sellers. I can also see many auctions being shilled by bidders with no intent to pay, possibly to price-fix their own singles. This set is the most overrated and overpriced set in the history of sportscards. With that said, you can be sure that people who buy into this are going to try to protect their investment as much as possible, because if the secondary market truly depicted value ... we shouldn't see much activity over $500 with the exception of some of the top hits.


Beware when bidding or estimating values when using eBay auctions for this stuff, it will be manipulated like nothing we've seen before!

It has already begun, i checked most of the cards listed already show big signs of being shilled.

[Bigalloyd13]

Could UD use this as ammo to be a partial license holder for NBA cards again in any way. This product is just terrible in my opinion.

[Muzzy66]

Could UD use this as ammo to be a partial license holder for NBA cards again in any way. This product is just terrible in my opinion.

For what it's worth, I just read that Upper Deck just signed a "long term extension" with as an exclusive producer of MJ products.

Link:
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/

I also noted the following:


The deal limits the number of Jordan autographs, which in theory will drive up the price for collectors.


I found that interesting.

Also this:


Jordan retired from playing basketball for the third and final time a dozen years ago, but his memorabilia continues to be a hot seller. Terapeak, which is the leading analytics provider for eBay, examined eBay sales for Forbes with Jordan and other top athletes over a three-month period in late 2014. Jordan trading cards, collectibles and memorabilia sales were $9.7 million or almost six times the sales of the NBA’s current king, LeBron James. More than 150,000 non-shoe Jordan items sold at an average price of $62 with trading cards the dominant item.


Makes me thing that:

1) Panini isn't taking MJ
2) UD probably isn't going to stop producing cards any time soon

[paul06901]

Probstein looks to be consigning a box someone broke:

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/xWEAAOSwk1JWcLLK/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/88kAAOSwo3pWcLV~/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/DSMAAOSwSHZWcLUW/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/z0QAAOSwo3pWcLNU/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/R5oAAOSwJcZWcLF5/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/1TIAAOSwk1JWcLPU/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/Vt4AAOSwJcZWcLIz/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/TmIAAOSwNyFWcLSP/s-l225.jpg


Unless the breaker is withholding a card or two, this looks like (8) cards for $6000. That's $750 /card.

Even in a group break this is an absolutely BRUTAL product because, realistically speaking (when things settle and there's no shilling/manipulation), are any of these cards even $400?!

YIKES!

[xavieronly1]

Probstein = shill heaven.

[mindcycle]

Those metal cards are so terrible looking.. At least the dude has $70 worth of silver there, lol.

[xavieronly1]

Unless the breaker is withholding a card or two or three, this looks like (7) cards for $6000. That's $850+ /card.


YIKES!

You miss the 8th card.
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/TmIAAOSwNyFWcLSP/s-l225.jpg

[paul06901]

You miss the 8th card.
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/TmIAAOSwNyFWcLSP/s-l225.jpg

Missed that one, just added it into my original post. Another $200 card that cost $750!

[Muzzy66]

Unless the breaker is withholding a card or two, this looks like (8) cards for $6000. That's $750 /card.

Even in a group break this is an absolutely BRUTAL product because, realistically speaking (when things settle and there's no shilling/manipulation), are any of these cards even $400?!

YIKES!

Scary part is that even the cut signature (which are supposed to be Uber rare) of Red Auerback doesn't strike me as a card that would net massive money.

How many people out there are mad Red Auerback fans?!?

[jj2]

You miss the 8th card.
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/TmIAAOSwNyFWcLSP/s-l225.jpg

Values aside, that Clyde is awesome.

[the27guy]

Values aside, that Clyde is awesome.

The Clyde is really nice.

I don't know if it's the best or third best card though. The curry MVP is probably the best.

[XARZY]

Saw page 4 and did a huge oh hell nah! And moved on the page 5. So glad there are pictures. I just can't handle the long winded responses about money grab products. I feel like panini is stealing my time along with other people's money

[TBarn291]

To make matters worse - jersey cards and sticker autos. In products that sells for US $600 a box. Seriously?!?!?! I don't know whether that makes me want to laugh or cry.

Look, at the end of the day this is just my personal opinion here - but it does seem like there are a lot of people out there who share the same view.

You like the college exquisite releases, which are poorly designed and a chalked full of manufactured non-game worn jersey and shoe patches, but have a problem with game-worn jersey cards in a high-end release? I always thought Upper Deck was nuts for trying to charge that much for a bunch of rehashed products. It worked like the first year, but was just a disaster after that. I really thought they may have had a chance if they had done more original college products.

Personally I don't think there was any consistent quality from about 2000-2012 with a few exceptions. I always thought Exquisite was decent, but highly over rated, and also guilty of a lot of the same things people complain about in regards to Panini. UD Black was insanely priced for a product that had sticker autos and a bunch of fake patches, and I may be mistaking but didn't you only get like three cards per box or something similar?

[Nutcracker33]

First video break posted, and damn that's pretty brutal

Nice packaging at least

http://youtu.be/jVYCC5LFNvQ

[mindcycle]

First video break posted, and damn that's pretty brutal

Nice packaging at least

http://youtu.be/jVYCC5LFNvQ

So if this is an average case, 6k basically gets you thick as h*ll cards of the same old signers from every Panini release and a bunch of gaudy looking silver bricks. Wow.. just.. wow

[jbrandonw]

They straight up jacked the silver and gold cards from wheeler. Lol

[Jonathon M]

First video break posted, and damn that's pretty brutal

Nice packaging at least

http://youtu.be/jVYCC5LFNvQ

Ouch! Even top spot in a hit draft may struggle to get their spot money back on some breaks, this one included

[tmar214]

Ouch!



Yea wow. I have no idea what's going on with this set. Wild how many cards are 1 oz silver auto cards instead of patch autos. The patch auto subsets look great imo but half the cards include a 1 oz piece of silver is so odd to me.

Really need tags and 1 oz gold cards to fall at a 1 per case rate each for this set to be reasonable.

[jellyboy]

Saw a break here, come out a wiggin's patch auto /10, think it worth more than a box

[ljandkg]

I expect to get thoroughly flamed for this but I, personally, think that the National Treasures RPA's are one of the most overrated card designs in card collecting history.

There is absolutely nothing that screams screams "desirability" to me about this design:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/LzUAAOSwq7JUFgxb/$_35.JPG

It's not an ugly design sure, it's nice. It's unoffensive. It's reasonably elegant. But it's not exciting in any way, shape or form. It looks ok. The next year's version will look pretty much the same, but updated slightly. The next year's will again look pretty much the same, with a slightly different border.

If you have seen one NT RPA, you've seen them all.

Similarly, there is nothing at all exciting to me about this Immaculate RPA design:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/JPMAAOSwq7JULvii/$_57.JPG

Once again it is nice enough - does the job. Doesn't make me fall out of my seat, and it doesn't make my jaw drop to the floor. But it's nice.

This one from flawless - even with the red foil - absolutely bores the hell out of me. It's basically a carbon copy of the NT design but flipped on it's side, with a smaller patch window, and with red foil.

Every single year you have three high end products from Panini - NT, Immaculate and Flawless. Every single year those three products are 90% identical to the previous year.

Flawless itself is basically just National Treasures with a slight facelift and some stones embedded in.

Again, the cards look nice enough - but there is NOTHING original there. It's the same old crap over, and over, and over, and over, and over....

I think I've only ever bought one box of NT and one box of Immaculate. I pulled an Acetate auto of David Robinson from the Immaculate, which was a stunning card (numbered 50/50). I pulled a Gold Giannis Rookie Auto from the NT, which was also a pretty nice card. Every other card in both boxes was boring and worthless enough that I could have thrown them in the bin and never felt bad about it. You're really paying $600 for one card, and everything else is worthless filler. IMHO that is unacceptable in a US $600 a box product.

To make matters worse - jersey cards and sticker autos. In products that sells for US $600 a box. Seriously?!?!?! I don't know whether that makes me want to laugh or cry.

Honestly, I have felt that Panini are improving lately. Noir (all autos on card, all memorabilia are patch or tag) was a big step in the right direction.

As was Luxe IMO, since all autos are on-card, and the silver border cards are a nice unique idea (though the regular cards look a bit too much like Immaculate).

Preferred has a nice niche with it's emphasis on booklets, but is let down severely by a horrible checklist. Not uncommon to get a box where 3/4 cards are people you have never heard of, and the 4th is a tier 4 guy.

Gold Standard is a nice product that has a clear identity, so I can roll with that. 14/15 version in particular had some really nice RPA's - I think I actually prefer those to the NT ones.

Court Kings has a unique identity, so that's cool.

Gala is a novel idea, but not very well executed. They are 100% on card I believe and the silver screen autos are nice, but most of the cards just aren't that nice looking (too much black). With a bit of work thought, the brand has potential I think.

Prizm / Select / Spectra may as well all be one product since they are basically all just variations of the same old theme.

NT/Flawless likewise. Immaculate is unique enough to separate it from those, but barely.

People keep complaining about Upper Deck getting special treatment. They don't. People kiss UD's butt because people actually like the product ranges they have put out over the years.

They pay out Panini because they feel most of their designs are either ugly, unimaginative, or both.

I'm not biased one way or the other - I will flock to any product I see that draws my desire. Hence why I had no problems a few posts up listing some of the Panini cards i do really like. The reason I get frustrated is that Panini has the NBA license (and not the College license too) so they have all the power to produce amazing products - and yet the vast majority of the stuff they churn out is boring, unimaginative or just plain hideous.

Are there exceptions? Certainly. But the consistency is just not there.

Upper Deck for the past 4 years has had no NBA license, which has thoroughly crippled them by limiting their ability to get new photos, game used memorabilia, etc. They have also only produced three high end brands (Exquisite, Black, All Time Greats). Yet stil, IMHO, UD has brought out just as many great looking sets as Panini has over that stretch of time.

Look, at the end of the day this is just my personal opinion here - but it does seem like there are a lot of people out there who share the same view.

I think you're having a little trouble expressing yourself...

;)

[UltimateDeron]

Saw a break here, come out a wiggin's patch auto /10, think it worth more than a box

Where's "here"?

I do not think a Wiggins RPA /10 from this product will net $5k.

This product will be known as a joke in the basketball community and I believe it will have a direct effect on the values of even the nicer cards in this product.

National Treasures, Immaculate, and Flawless will remain supreme in the basketball collecting world.

[hairyangryfella]

I know they're poorly designed cards, but where is the auto on that Curry?? Friggin Probstein and PWCC with their keyword spamming.

That aside, it looks like a pretty nice box - all good players and a cut.

[UltimateDeron]

I know they're poorly designed cards, but where is the auto on that Curry?? Friggin Probstein and PWCC with their keyword spamming.

That aside, it looks like a pretty nice box - all good players and a cut.

And the Drexler is a "1/1 type" card they claim. How?

[jellyboy]

Where's "here"?

I do not think a Wiggins RPA /10 from this product will net $5k.

This product will be known as a joke in the basketball community and I believe it will have a direct effect on the values of even the nicer cards in this product.

National Treasures, Immaculate, and Flawless will remain supreme in the basketball collecting world.

"here" is HK, the picture had posted in their fb page, card looks nice and I believe the hardcore wiggin's collection willing to pay for it:)

[inopethflames]

did panini show in the previews there were metal cards with no autos, probably i suppose but i forgot or didnt really notice going through the tons of pix fast. so there is seemingly 2 cards per box with no autos, out of a 6k product? ridiculous. that is truly horrible, thats probably the worst part of the product if most boxes have 1-2 non-auto cards per box.

the other problem with this is the problem flawless has, and first year spectra, and other high end products where there is not much variety in each box. this is where immaculate completely destroys all other panini high-end products, theres so much variety in immaculate that it makes it a lot more exciting to open. you could get logoman, a variety of full card patches, multi-autos, huge short patches in 13-14, hat tags, regular tags, rap's, base 1/1's, many auto & patch sets. well we'll see wednesday what this all actually looks like and then see what prices end up going for, the prices will be higher than people think but i dunno how many boxes of this will actually make money or lose less than $500.

[UltimateDeron]

"here" is HK, the picture had posted in their fb page, card looks nice and I believe the hardcore wiggin's collection willing to pay for it:)

Post it please. Thanks :)

[eddiekyf]

https://www.facebook.com/sportscardgems/?fref=ts
Post it please. Thanks :)

[BigAl83]

First video break posted, and damn that's pretty brutal

Nice packaging at least

http://youtu.be/jVYCC5LFNvQ

Not brutal at all. The price point of this product is brutal. Any product should be priced at a point where there are cards that could fetch more than the initial lay-in. Eminence might have a few cuts that can, but i see very few other cards that will probably bring in over 2-3k.
Almost all Panini products are overpriced at the release (usually by 50%). At 2.5-3k a box this would be a decent product worth the risk.

Not much more you can ask for than a Pippen, Durant, Blake, Kyrie, Magic and Wade auto.

It says everything about this product that this person will probably feel gutted about this break while getting pretty much all top tier autographs!

[pgisback]

The only thing different here is the price. I watched a case of immaculate football for $2200 break and had maybe $500 worth of cards. Seen maybe 8 cases now, have not seen a single card worth more than a case, have not seen a single case with more resale value than the case. It's like this across all products. This one is just more expensive so for some reason people think you're gonna get your money back every case. People are gonna take a beating in this just like any other product. But the relative beating will be the same.

[Andy5]

Big, fat, red FAIL stamp! Panini should be getting used to these by now.

[M4YH3M1]

Check out the close-up of the Wiggins..

Top right corner damage to the patch window..

Time for a replacement perhaps??? LMFAO

[Pastretta]

Ouch :coffee::eek::doh:

-Chris

[fdjizm]

Check out the close-up of the Wiggins..

Top right corner damage to the patch window..

Time for a replacement perhaps??? LMFAO

Now now, they don't claim it's "flawless" :)!

[nickha2]

At least the boxes are cool looking

[LuckySlayer]

..think of the singles you could get instead! with no risk and guaranteed value??

[ACCDADEAL]

this is terrible stuff. I wouldn't pay $200 for any card I have seen yet.

[eeidlitz]

Does anyone know if there is an eminence cut auto tracker? I thought I saw one (not sure if blowout) but can't find it..?

[xavieronly1]

The only thing different here is the price. I watched a case of immaculate football for $2200 break and had maybe $500 worth of cards. Seen maybe 8 cases now, have not seen a single card worth more than a case, have not seen a single case with more resale value than the case. It's like this across all products. This one is just more expensive so for some reason people think you're gonna get your money back every case. People are gonna take a beating in this just like any other product. But the relative beating will be the same.

Panini left too much money on the table when they released 2012-13 Flawless. Since then, they decided to overprice everything (except 2014-15 Select).

[coltsnsox07]

I thought the cuts were al 1/1's but a Red Auerbach on ebay is /5.

[xavieronly1]

I thought the cuts were al 1/1's but a Red Auerbach on ebay is /5.

Check the checklist. Wilt cut is /10

[coltsnsox07]

Ah yes, I kept clicking on 2015 basketball for the checklist instead of 2014. Now I see it. Of course the checklist says the Auerbach is /4 but it's really /5, I wonder how many others are wrong.

[jstasyk1121]

I wouldnt be surprised if this is a reason Panini eventually loses an NBA license. I hope the NBA raises an eyebrow at this.

do you really think the NBA cares one bit?? like what do you think they would do?? "wow panini made a box of cards for $6k...we better get out of this deal"....lol...NBA couldnt care less....

and again...people will still buy this...
is it crap? yes...
is it insanely priced? absolutely....
are their still people who will throw money at it and join breaks? yep....then said people will be pissed often when they took the gamble that they couldnt resist trying to hit the platinum cards and got a bill walton auto instead that will bash Panini forever....

its ridiculous to think the NBA even knows this exists let alone actually cares...why should they?

[jstasyk1121]

i love how the non-auto Silver /5 cards are being listed at $700....good luck...its a base card with a $15 pc of silver in it....yikes...those shouldnt sell for much at all i would think...

[paul06901]

Here is an Asian 2-case break of Panini ENEMA-nence:

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/r270/1040556_955745554504834_8713114999695882126_o.jpg



TWELVE THOUSAND DOLLARS WORTH OF PRODUCT!!!

What's the actual market value of those singles? Three/four thousand, at most?!

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140625082633/skylandersfanon/images/c/ca/Chris-morris-jumps-out-window-o.gif

[xavieronly1]

i love how the non-auto Silver /5 cards are being listed at $700....good luck...its a base card with a $15 pc of silver in it....yikes...those shouldnt sell for much at all i would think...

I would put that Silver non-auto card like any flawless base. Rare card. That's all.

[jstasyk1121]

so if its 4k that is 33% of what they spent....thats like dropping $3200 on Flawless and getting back $1k...its the same as the other stuff...just looks sooooooo much worse cuz its at a bigger scale!!!

[smalltown]

so if its 4k that is 33% of what they spent....thats like dropping $3200 on Flawless and getting back $1k...its the same as the other stuff...just looks sooooooo much worse cuz its at a bigger scale!!!

+1 It's just scale.

[Stats]

+1 It's just scale.

Even though it's "just scale," this product is like getting 2 or 3 bad cases in a row of NT, and that is WITH getting really good autographs in the Eminence pack! I have opened high end wax for fun for over 10 years now. I would love to open Eminence, but I am priced out. There are great autographs, but I can't justify the amount I would lose for the experience. The difference is too substantial. The amount you lose is just silly. Do I want to try this and lose, say 4k so that I could have the selfish experience of trying this? Why would I do that when I could take that money and buy a vacation for my family, buy 33 Playstation 4's, buy a new family room or buy 4000 McDoubles:flex:???

The problem here is - what is the payoff for opening? What are the MONSTER hits that make it worth taking the risk?

Immaculate had logoman autos, big RPAs

NT had the big RPA's, logoman RCs and Logoman autos

Flawless had RC's /20, 1/1 Diamond RCs, Dual Logoman set, USA triple autos

Eminence has big star autos, but where is that one card or set that can get you almost all the way back?

[Ottomatic]

so if its 4k that is 33% of what they spent....thats like dropping $3200 on Flawless and getting back $1k...its the same as the other stuff...just looks sooooooo much worse cuz its at a bigger scale!!!

Yup. This times 1000000. Not many products give you even 50% back, but the scale is what makes this look so bad.

[Ottomatic]

I think the lack of monster cards is what would turn me off if I had the money to blow. It needed 1/1 logomen cards, without Lebron and MJ it really limits something like this.

[WaiverWire]

It's worse than that.... Somehow, Panini is making it so people take a real hard look at "autos" "patches" "patch-autos" and "artificial scarcity."

If...at the end of the day, a bunch of collectors are like "Hey wait a minute....all of these autos and patches are really quite overproduced. And even though it says /10 or /5...spread out over 20 products per year, every year. Maybe all these Bill Walton and Karl Malones aren't really that special." There could be collateral damage to other of their flagship products.

[MiracleSports]

these threads are always funny on the high-end products because its always the same thing.

1. people who cant afford the product bash it because they cant afford it. if they made a million per year they wouldnt be complaining about it.

2. people who arent opening it loudly proclaim what resale prices will be & 'should' be. the larry bird 1/1 'should' be $500, it 'might' be $1.5k now, but it 'will' be $600-$800 in the future. people say what prices 'should' be in their opinion when the actual prices will be multiple times that price because this way they can feel smarter than the buyer since they wouldnt be paying those prices, at least when they write or talk about it.

3. 9 cases out of 700 or whatever means that panini has made sure to keep the best boxes for america. we know that because .01% of the cases have been opened. if someone can prove that panini purposely favors one area of the world over another and cases arent random then you should sue panini and the nba because you would be do everyone a service and we can all get some money from a class action lawsuit.

4. nothing ever beats exquisite. everything is a ripoff of exquisite, exquisite is the best, etc etc etc. exquisite was $550 for 5 cards of which 2 were totally worthless base cards except for the top 3. that was a joke. most of the cards looked great, but upper deck couldnt stay in the nba business. if they still had a liscense most likely exquisite would now cost $5k a box, not $500. when something is gone people only remember the best parts and purposely ignore the lesser things. also 08-09 exquisite boxes had a really stupid layout where everything was basically revealed once the box was open leaving no anticipation.

I take it that this is somewhat directed towards me or us Asian collectors breaking high end wax in general. No I certainly can't provide prove in terms of who Panini chooses to favor in their product allocations. But I do have a pretty clear picture how the game works both as a seasoned collector and one-time cardshop owner. Everything is just a balancing act for them on the scale. People complain that Asia always gets the best cases distributed to them, well guess what: Panini held back all the monster cases this time around for US distribution purposely trying to please YOU fine folks back home in the States, yet the domestic market still reacted with a cold shoulder and a loud slap in their face. Bottom line is: This high end release lacks a identity and have no chase cards (basketball related) that could get the most avid collectors willing to shell out 6K for a crack at it. Therefore it is destined to be doomed from the beginning.

As for my respect & liking towards UD and their BKB products: even if you put product designs aside: UD high end products still blows Panini products out of the water with its reasonable pricing & rich contents. Had they survived and hanged around till this day & co-shared the NBA liscense, Panini would not have dared to disgrace themselves and the hobby community with a product called EMINENCE w/ a 6K price tag yet offering mediocre content and shoved it down collectors throats. Considering their resources at hand and the exclusive license which gives them infinite tests of trial & error, you would think they have probably figured it out what collectors want by now. But sadly the answer is NO. And the reason is them NOT willing to change cuz they know they're the ONLY game in town.

Believe me: witnessing 9 consecutive cases being ripped and having ripped 2 cases myself on release day is a very decent sample size and gives you a clear overview of the product. This is clearly a cash grab product (taking advantage of the wiggins hype) tailored made for the highrollers & gamblers, yet they failed miserably unable to insert anything (basketball related) content that can justify its price. I guess for most of the people that actually opened this product, the only decent thing that comes out of their mouth would be: "well at least I ripped the most expensive basketball product to date!"

BTW I was that HK sucker who pulled the Wiggins RPA in the 2 case emminence break. Wiggins certainly saved my as* big time. Without it making an appearance, this break would of had bloodbath written all over it. :D

Don't assume collectors can't afford this product. There are many collectors who's financially capable (especially people in my region) but are turned off by its content and Panini's incompetence to make a high end product given their capabilites and resources.

And this is coming from a guy who purchases and distributes their high-end products on a weekly basis.

[paul06901]

To stray away from the money, look at the picture I posed of the 2-case break.

How GENERIC does everything look? Looks like NIOR mixed with Luxe and some junk metal pieces and gaudy rainbow foil!

The only true appeal to the set is the championship tag autos. The design on those is pretty cruddy too, and the set doesn't really make sense for many of the players. I hope someone researches the relic pieces being used ... I wonder if the word "Championship" is not being used literally in many cases ...

The cut autos are lame. I mean, let's be honest. If they were all #1/1 ... MAYBE OK. But Wilt cut auto #/10? Really? Can't a Wilt PSA/DNA cut be purchased for a few hundred on eBay? And why do we need presidential and baseball signature cards in a basketball product?

My point being, money aside, the product is garbage. The designs, the quality, the junk metals, the smudged/streaky/ugly paint pen autos, small patch windows, player selection, condition (already have seen many dinged corners), etc. But the money involved is what forces people to give it value. A set like Select actually is so much nicer! But the mentality behind the hobby is that product cost should directly translate to secondary market value. To quote the great Gio ... SMH!

[Ottomatic]

To stray away from the money, look at the picture I posed of the 2-case break.

How GENERIC does everything look? Looks like NIOR mixed with Luxe and some junk metal pieces and gaudy rainbow foil!

The only true appeal to the set is the championship tag autos. The design on those is pretty cruddy too, and the set doesn't really make sense for many of the players. I hope someone researches the relic pieces being used ... I wonder if the word "Championship" is not being used literally in many cases ...

The cut autos are lame. I mean, let's be honest. If they were all #1/1 ... MAYBE OK. But Wilt cut auto #/10? Really? Can't a Wilt PSA/DNA cut be purchased for a few hundred on eBay? And why do we need presidential and baseball signature cards in a basketball product?

My point being, money aside, the product is garbage. The designs, the quality, the junk metals, the smudged/streaky/ugly paint pen autos, small patch windows, player selection, condition (already have seen many dinged corners), etc. But the money involved is what forces people to give it value. A set like Select actually is so much nicer! But the mentality behind the hobby is that product cost should directly translate to secondary market value. To quote the great Gio ... SMH!

Exactly, if they are going to do something this expensive there has to be something insanely unique/awesome in it. This is nothing more than a gimmick. Awful imo.

[tke1600]

2 full cases are listed as BIN/BO. The total asking prices of all 16 cards, which are extremely high on most of them, comes to $9,700. Even if the seller some how got 75% asking after fees, it looks like he would get back 60% of his $12,000.

[MiracleSports]

Here is an Asian 2-case break of Panini ENEMA-nence:

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/r270/1040556_955745554504834_8713114999695882126_o.jpg



TWELVE THOUSAND DOLLARS WORTH OF PRODUCT!!!

What's the actual market value of those singles? Three/four thousand, at most?!

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140625082633/skylandersfanon/images/c/ca/Chris-morris-jumps-out-window-o.gif

This is my break and I'm not ashamed to admit it. :D Wiggins RPA clearly the life-saver and this result is better than 70% of the other emminence breaks out there. I am in no hurry moving any of the major hits anytime soon. It's a one & done product for me. Like I said earlier, SIMPLY breaking it for the hell of it.

BTW there's no factory damage to the Wiggins RPA anywhere excep maybe a tiny little white showing on the top right corner

[paul06901]

I take it that this is somewhat directed towards me or us Asian collectors breaking high end wax in general. No I certainly can't provide prove in terms of who Panini chooses to favor in their product allocations. But I do have a pretty clear picture how the game works both as a seasoned collector and one-time cardshop owner. Everything is just a balancing act for them on the scale. People complain that Asia always gets the best cases distributed to them, well guess what: Panini held back all the monster cases this time around for US distribution purposely trying to please YOU fine folks back home in the States, yet the domestic market still reacted with a cold shoulder and a loud slap in their face. Bottom line is: This high end release lacks a identity and have no chase cards (basketball related) that could get the most avid collectors willing to shell out 6K for a crack at it. Therefore it is destined to be doomed from the beginning.

As for my respect & liking towards UD and their BKB products: even if you put product designs aside: UD high end products still blows Panini products out of the water with its reasonable pricing & rich contents. Had they survived and hanged around till this day & co-shared the NBA liscense, Panini would not have dared to disgrace themselves and the hobby community with a product called EMINENCE w/ a 6K price tag yet offering mediocre content and shoved it down collectors throats. Considering their resources at hand and the exclusive license which gives them infinite tests of trial & error, you would think they have probably figured it out what collectors want by now. But sadly the answer is NO. And the reason is them NOT willing to change cuz they know they're the ONLY game in town.

Believe me: witnessing 9 consecutive cases being ripped and having ripped 2 cases myself on release day is a very decent sample size and gives you a clear overview of the product. This is clearly a cash grab product (taking advantage of the wiggins hype) tailored made for the highrollers & gamblers, yet they failed miserably unable to insert anything (basketball related) content that can justify its price. I guess for most of the people that actually opened this product, the only decent thing that comes out of their mouth would be: "well at least I ripped the most expensive basketball product to date!"

BTW I was that HK sucker who pulled the Wiggins RPA in the 2 case emminence break. Wiggins certainly saved my as* big time. Without it making an appearance, this break would of had bloodbath written all over it. :D

Don't assume collectors can't afford this product. There are many collectors who's financially capable (especially people in my region) but are turned off by its content and Panini's incompetence to make a high end product given their capabilites and resources.

And this is coming from a guy who purchases and distributes their high-end products on a weekly basis.



Appreciate your honesty. Please don't take anything I say personal. I'm not trying to bash you or anything, but it's mind boggling why people are buying this crap.


Your best card was the Wiggins, that looks eerily similar to this card ...except with less patch, more shiny and numbered a bit lower:

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZQ8AAOSwiLdWCdVo/s-l1600.jpg

Andrew Wiggins Luxe Rookie Patch On Card Auto RPA 06/25 4 Color Super Patch! (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Andrew-Wiggins-Luxe-Rookie-Patch-On-Card-Auto-RPA-06-25-4-Color-Super-Patch-/262070009834?hash=item3d0496ffea%3Ag%3AZQ8AAOSwiLdWCdVo&nma=true&si=TaIUu9KhnP5kSBWQn1MHc8YiGm8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)


That Luxe sold for $700. Your Wiggins was the best hit from (2) cases at an average cost of $750/card. How that cannot be considered a bloodbath is beyond me.


It's scary that people have so much money that they knowingly spend it on a product like this. Everything is poor about the product. As you said, it's a lame cash-grab. I mean, to each their own with the disposable income they have ... but at some point logic needs to set in and reality needs to force the hand from making the purchase. I know gambling addition is tough. But imagine if you, and the other high-end buyers actually stopped buying until Panini decided to product actual QUALITY and VALUE instead of JUNK like Eminence?!

[LALeakers]

To stray away from the money, look at the picture I posed of the 2-case break.

How GENERIC does everything look? Looks like NIOR mixed with Luxe and some junk metal pieces and gaudy rainbow foil!

The only true appeal to the set is the championship tag autos. The design on those is pretty cruddy too, and the set doesn't really make sense for many of the players. I hope someone researches the relic pieces being used ... I wonder if the word "Championship" is not being used literally in many cases ...

The cut autos are lame. I mean, let's be honest. If they were all #1/1 ... MAYBE OK. But Wilt cut auto #/10? Really? Can't a Wilt PSA/DNA cut be purchased for a few hundred on eBay? And why do we need presidential and baseball signature cards in a basketball product?

My point being, money aside, the product is garbage. The designs, the quality, the junk metals, the smudged/streaky/ugly paint pen autos, small patch windows, player selection, condition (already have seen many dinged corners), etc. But the money involved is what forces people to give it value. A set like Select actually is so much nicer! But the mentality behind the hobby is that product cost should directly translate to secondary market value. To quote the great Gio ... SMH!




^^Game, set, match.

[smalltown]

Beautiful Curry 2/2 Championship tag pulled on blowouttv

[MiracleSports]

Appreciate your honesty. Please don't take anything I say personal. I'm not trying to bash you or anything, but it's mind boggling why people are buying this crap.


Your best card was the Wiggins, that looks eerily similar to this card ...except with less patch, more shiny and numbered a bit lower:



That Luxe sold for $700. Your Wiggins was the best hit from (2) cases at an average cost of $750/card. How that cannot be considered a bloodbath is beyond me.


It's scary that people have so much money that they knowingly spend it on a product like this. Everything is poor about the product. As you said, it's a lame cash-grab. I mean, to each their own with the disposable income they have ... but at some point logic needs to set in and reality needs to force the hand from making the purchase. I know gambling addition is tough. But imagine if you, and the other high-end buyers actually stopped buying until Panini decided to product actual QUALITY and VALUE instead of JUNK like Eminence?!

No worries Paul. I really enjoyed reading your posts & sharing your expertise on some of the hobby related issues. You seem very knowledgable and a passionate hobbyist. I find myself agreeing with alot of your viewpoints regarding the hobby. Yes we have our arguments and differences of opinion over Kobe and sports related discussions, but this hobby is what unites us and brings us collectors together. Sad to see card companies (YOU KNOW WHO) gradually tearing it down and burning it to the ground with their market manipulation and outrageous pricing. :(:(

[xavieronly1]

It's worse than that.... Somehow, Panini is making it so people take a real hard look at "autos" "patches" "patch-autos" and "artificial scarcity."

If...at the end of the day, a bunch of collectors are like "Hey wait a minute....all of these autos and patches are really quite overproduced. And even though it says /10 or /5...spread out over 20 products per year, every year. Maybe all these Bill Walton and Karl Malones aren't really that special." There could be collateral damage to other of their flagship products.

There are 51 different Shaq cards in this product. This is the true classic case for artificial scarcity.

[smalltown]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWXIZMTU4AAuXXA.jpg

[MiracleSports]

Beautiful card, but for Christ Sake, inscribe something on that card Curry!!! You just won a ring! Why the modesty? :D

[NickM]

The problem with saying Panini held back the monster cases for the U.S.: What monster cases?
This product is a bloodbath for anyone opening it. Getting the #1 pick in a hit draft still probably is a loser.

[MiracleSports]

Just thought of a perfect name for this release.

PANINI ENIGMA :D:D

[jstasyk1121]

always kinda curious as to why the companies think that making the card thicker makes it more valuable or like makes it a bigger deal...why in the world are the cards so damn thick...lol

[xavieronly1]

Beautiful card, but for Christ Sake, inscribe something on that card Curry!!! You just won a ring! Why the modesty? :D

Why would Panini ask Curry to write more when you guys break cases with just plain auto?

[tke1600]

The problem with saying Panini held back the monster cases for the U.S.: What monster cases?
This product is a bloodbath for anyone opening it. Getting the #1 pick in a hit draft still probably is a loser.

Not with this pick:

2014 15 Panini Eminence Kobe Bryant Champions 1 Troy Ounce 14k Gold Auto 1 1 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/141854515255)

2014-15 Panini Eminence Kobe Bryant Champions 1 Troy Ounce 14k Gold Auto 1/1

[NoleinJax]

Probstein looks to be consigning a box someone broke:

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/xWEAAOSwk1JWcLLK/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/88kAAOSwo3pWcLV~/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/DSMAAOSwSHZWcLUW/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/z0QAAOSwo3pWcLNU/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/R5oAAOSwJcZWcLF5/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/1TIAAOSwk1JWcLPU/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/Vt4AAOSwJcZWcLIz/s-l225.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/TmIAAOSwNyFWcLSP/s-l225.jpg


Unless the breaker is withholding a card or two, this looks like (8) cards for $6000. That's $750 /card.

Even in a group break this is an absolutely BRUTAL product because, realistically speaking (when things settle and there's no shilling/manipulation), are any of these cards even $400?!

YIKES!

I thought the USA patch cards would be cool, but the COA leaves alot to be desired as usual. For something so expensive, shouldn't one expect an airtight COA stating at minimum that the memorabilia pieces were worn by the specific player in an NBA game. I would think for something this pricey they would be able to state the specific game that the jerseys were from. This may be harder for retired guys, but for current players there are plenty of ways for them to obtain game-worn jerseys that can be dated to a specific game, if not half as many players change jerseys or entire uniforms at halftime.

[mindcycle]

If that emema Wiggins with a way smaller patch window than even Luxe pulls more than an NT RPA, i'd be very surprised. That would be manufactured scarcity at it's saddest moment in my mind.

No offense to the breaker on the better hit in his case, that's just my opinion on that card which i've posted about before.

[Stats]

If that emema Wiggins with a way smaller patch window than even Luxe pulls more than an NT RPA, i'd be very surprised. That would be manufactured scarcity at it's saddest moment in my mind.

No offense to the breaker on the better hit in his case, that's just my opinion on that card which i've posted about before.

Well, one difference is that the Eminence patches should be game used, right?

[WaiverWire]

Not with this pick:

2014 15 Panini Eminence Kobe Bryant Champions 1 Troy Ounce 14k Gold Auto 1 1 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/141854515255)

2014-15 Panini Eminence Kobe Bryant Champions 1 Troy Ounce 14k Gold Auto 1/1

Why buy the gold? Is it much cooler than the silver?

2014 15 Panini Eminence Kobe Braynt Champions 1 Ounce Silver Gold Auto 09 10 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-15-Panini-Eminence-Kobe-Braynt-Champions-1-Ounce-Silver-Gold-Auto-09-10-/361450631033?hash=item542822ef79:g:CKoAAOSwYaFWcZE5)

[xavieronly1]

Why buy the gold? Is it much cooler than the silver?

2014 15 Panini Eminence Kobe Braynt Champions 1 Ounce Silver Gold Auto 09 10 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-15-Panini-Eminence-Kobe-Braynt-Champions-1-Ounce-Silver-Gold-Auto-09-10-/361450631033?hash=item542822ef79:g:CKoAAOSwYaFWcZE5)

This card is like /50.

[mindcycle]

Not with this pick:

2014 15 Panini Eminence Kobe Bryant Champions 1 Troy Ounce 14k Gold Auto 1 1 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/141854515255)

2014-15 Panini Eminence Kobe Bryant Champions 1 Troy Ounce 14k Gold Auto 1/1

The sad thing is that card isn't much of a step up from this in all honesty.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE1OFgxNjAw/z/noUAAOSwuTxV-3K9/$_35.JPG

They both contain manufactured pieces of metal, and honestly, even though I hate the NT metal cards the design of those is actually much better than the enema card IMO.. :doh:

The main difference is that the enema Kobe is "real" 14k gold, and has a "one of one" stamp.. wow!

[Ottomatic]

Why buy the gold? Is it much cooler than the silver?

2014 15 Panini Eminence Kobe Braynt Champions 1 Ounce Silver Gold Auto 09 10 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-15-Panini-Eminence-Kobe-Braynt-Champions-1-Ounce-Silver-Gold-Auto-09-10-/361450631033?hash=item542822ef79:g:CKoAAOSwYaFWcZE5)

Isn't gold worth significantly more than silver?

[COMCMax]

Exquisite built up a premium, collector base, and had chase cards. Panini's got the idea that they can rename a product, slap a higher price tag on it, and the market will pay more for the singles. At some point this weird bubble they've created will pop.

[NoleinJax]

The Clyde is really nice.

I don't know if it's the best or third best card though. The curry MVP is probably the best.

That's crazy that a card not numbered 1/1, or one without an auto and/or game-used patch and only containing 1oz of silver might be the best hit out of 6k box. That probably says as much about the product as anything.

[NoleinJax]

First video break posted, and damn that's pretty brutal

Nice packaging at least

http://youtu.be/jVYCC5LFNvQ

Ouch:doh::doh:

[xavieronly1]

Isn't gold worth significantly more than silver?

Only if you decide to pop that gold bar and sell it. A silver bar + auto card > gold bar itself.

[dasiegel]

Thanks Miraclesports for your post, it is a very fair and honest assessment. Whether we are in the US or abroad, I think we are all in the same boat about this product. Luckily for you, you hit the Wiggins which you should sell asap on ebay. Do a high BIN/Best and if it doesn't sell in 3 days let an auction run for 7 days before this product dies!

[MiracleSports]

Why would Panini ask Curry to write more when you guys break cases with just plain auto?

Huh? What's with the hate? It's not like only us Asian collectors are breaking this product. With the support and boatload of cases that I have help this company distribute over the years, I think I earned the right to joke about their incompetence and lack of enthusiasm in executing a high-end product and making it work.

And I'm sure they're reading these threads. Just like the politicians and presidential candidates in your country like to say on the podium: "changes will come people! In approximately 20_ _ :D

[spurs50fan]

When you sit back and take it in, we're not paying for the auto, the patch, the design, the rarity. w/e you can think of. None seem to change from product to product.

We're paying for exclusivity (or the illusion). Always have been. Makes us feel different I guess. That's why the prices can keep going up with little to no change in the above card descriptions. I'll cheer and support but that's my .02

[MiracleSports]

Thanks Miraclesports for your post, it is a very fair and honest assessment. Whether we are in the US or abroad, I think we are all in the same boat about this product. Luckily for you, you hit the Wiggins which you should sell asap on ebay. Do a high BIN/Best and if it doesn't sell in 3 days let an auction run for 7 days before this product dies!

Thanks for your advise man, I'll take it into serious consideration. If I can't sell it locally, I'll eventually have to end up in this route. Just can't confirm if this card is his true RPA compared with that silver .999 auto also #'d /10! I guess only time will tell which one people view as his TRUE RC. The card actually has no visible flaws, quite a beauty in hand.

[NoleinJax]

https://www.facebook.com/sportscardgems/?fref=ts

Well at least they almost got $100 worth of silver out of that 12k break. 7 out of 16 card with 1oz of silver. There are less cards with gold or platinum in them than cut autos. I honestly can't see how many of the cases will be money makers, much less ones that pay for multiple cases. I wonder how long before Panini announces that his product has sold out?

[xavieronly1]

Huh? What's with the hate? It's not like only us Asian collectors are breaking this product. With the support and boatload of cases that I have help this company distribute over the years, I think I earned the right to joke about their incompetence and lack of enthusiasm in executing a high-end product and making it work.

And I'm sure they're reading these threads. Just like the politicians and presidential candidates in your country like to say on the podium: "changes will come people! In approximately 20_ _ :D

Hate? And you want to play race card again?

You ask for inscription. I tell you why there is no need to do more from panini's standpoint. The money is already rolled into Panini's bank before checklist or any preview.

It is like iphone 1 or LCD TV. It is missing this; it is missing that. Guess what? Apple knows it will sell, and there is no need to put everything in one year. Downgrade a bit, keep the good trick later.

[NoleinJax]

do you really think the NBA cares one bit?? like what do you think they would do?? "wow panini made a box of cards for $6k...we better get out of this deal"....lol...NBA couldnt care less....

and again...people will still buy this...
is it crap? yes...
is it insanely priced? absolutely....
are their still people who will throw money at it and join breaks? yep....then said people will be pissed often when they took the gamble that they couldnt resist trying to hit the platinum cards and got a bill walton auto instead that will bash Panini forever....

its ridiculous to think the NBA even knows this exists let alone actually cares...why should they?


Considering there are only 5 cards with 1oz of platinum out of the 6k plus cards in the release, I would hope no one is seriously joining a break hoping to hit a white whale.

[MiracleSports]

Hate? And you want to play race card again?

You ask for inscription. I tell you why there is no need to do more from panini's standpoint. The money is already rolled into Panini's bank before checklist or any preview.

It is like iphone 1 or LCD TV. It is missing this; it is missing that. Guess what? Apple knows it will sell, and there is no need to put everything in one year. Downgrade a bit, keep the good trick later.

Race card, what card game is this? :cool: NO we don't play this card game here Sir. We Asians only play Bacarrat and Blackjack. Capisce?

Not as racially diverse here as you might think. We Asians all look the same to you guys don't we? :D

[NoleinJax]

To stray away from the money, look at the picture I posed of the 2-case break.

How GENERIC does everything look? Looks like NIOR mixed with Luxe and some junk metal pieces and gaudy rainbow foil!

The only true appeal to the set is the championship tag autos. The design on those is pretty cruddy too, and the set doesn't really make sense for many of the players. I hope someone researches the relic pieces being used ... I wonder if the word "Championship" is not being used literally in many cases ...

The cut autos are lame. I mean, let's be honest. If they were all #1/1 ... MAYBE OK. But Wilt cut auto #/10? Really? Can't a Wilt PSA/DNA cut be purchased for a few hundred on eBay? And why do we need presidential and baseball signature cards in a basketball product?

My point being, money aside, the product is garbage. The designs, the quality, the junk metals, the smudged/streaky/ugly paint pen autos, small patch windows, player selection, condition (already have seen many dinged corners), etc. But the money involved is what forces people to give it value. A set like Select actually is so much nicer! But the mentality behind the hobby is that product cost should directly translate to secondary market value. To quote the great Gio ... SMH!


There are 11 players in Championship Tags Signature set checklist and 4 of them have no championship. :doh:

[xavieronly1]

Race card, what card game is this? :cool: NO we don't play this card game here Sir. We Asians only play Bacarrat and Blackjack. Capisce?

Not as racially diverse here as you might think. We Asians all look the same to you guys don't we? :D

Do you speak for all Asians? I wonder what are all these "We Asians" talking crap.

[Andrew Jones]

Another beating:

http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/basketball-box-breaks/949340-2cases-eminence-may-more.html

[MiracleSports]

Do you speak for all Asians? I wonder what are all these "We Asians" talking crap.

Oh boy look at this self righteous keyboard warrior trying to unite all human race on the internet. I was simply joking! Relax and take a deep breath. I was the one that almost got shafted on the emminence break not YOU. Sounds like you're more pissed than I am. I get the Iphone comparison to some extent, but quite frankly this is a 6000.00 USD product we're talking about here. Just giving them a little advise and constructive criticizm on how to make high end better, THAT'S ALL! And this is coming from a fat middle age Asian man in a unknow city called Hong Kong. There that makes you feel better Champ? :flex:

[hairyangryfella]

This is my break and I'm not ashamed to admit it. :D

Like I said earlier, SIMPLY breaking it for the hell of it.

And that is why they can get away with stupid crap like this. It's a narrow-minded and quite frankly selfish attitude to have. People can't control themselves and support fiascos like this, which does not encourage Panini to put in any actual effort because it'll still sell regardless!

[xavieronly1]

Oh boy look at this self righteous keyboard warrior trying to unite all human race on the internet. I was simply joking! Relax and take a deep breath. I was the one that almost got shafted on the emminence break not YOU. Sounds like you're more pissed than I am. I get the Iphone comparison to some extent, but quite frankly this is a 6000.00 USD product we're talking about here. Just giving them a little advise and constructive criticizm on how to make high end better, THAT'S ALL! And this is coming from a fat middle age Asian man in a unknow city called Hong Kong. There that makes you feel better Champ? :flex:

Hong Kong? Is it a place where all keyboard warriors will die because of Internet Article 23? Maybe time to move to US, champ.

[MiracleSports]

And that is why they can get away with stupid crap like this. It's a narrow-minded and quite frankly selfish attitude to have. People can't control themselves and support fiascos like this, which does not encourage Panini to put in any actual effort because it'll still sell regardless!

Well now that you mentioned it and looking back at the pics one more time, I do kinda feel bad for my "selfish attitude" for breaking this crap. Should of went for 3 cases of flawless instead. :D I think given the finiancial leniency (once in a while) we all have the gamblers in us to take risks at a mosnter hit.

I'll be very honest with you, I had my eye on two chase cards in this product, one being the Napoléon Bonaparte Cut, and the Kobe Championship Tag auto w/ "5 X Champs" inscription. Figured I give it a shot although the odds are stacked against me. Oh well, it is what it is. Definetely done with this product.

[MiracleSports]

Hong Kong? Is it a place where all keyboard warriors will die because of Internet Article 23? Maybe time to move to US, champ.

No we're (I'm) actually doing quite all right here Champ with a easy lifestyle many crave for :rolleyes: Enjoy your sour grapes Sir.

[yiguiri2002]

Oh it just got real!

All jokes aside, I don't think it's fair to only blame the people breaking. I just saw a PG auto numbered to 10 going for 400 (!!!) on eBay. Personally, I can't see how ANY non-patch auto from PG (beside, perhaps, his rookie year) can go for more than 300 - much less if it's numbered to 10!

Breakers will stop breaking when they realize that they can barely get 20-30% back. I feel like this is what happened with Gala. If people buying singles would purchase them at a reasonable prices, breakers would see the huge losses incurred and break less, and Panini would either: (a) decrease the ridiculous prices or (b) increase the quality of the product.

Or at least that's what I hope.

[alanlam]

Isn't gold worth significantly more than silver?

Yes. Silver is $10-$15 an oz. The gold they're using is $500-$600 an oz.

[mindcycle]

Another beating:

http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/basketball-box-breaks/949340-2cases-eminence-may-more.html

Wow.. :eek: ..that's what 12k gets you? Seriously? I'm honestly just shocked at how similar these patch/auto cards look compared to any of Panini's other releases. I actually think they look worse than a product like Immaculate for example, but to each their own I guess..

What i'm really interested in seeing is just how well these silver/gold/whatever brick cards sell on the secondary market. They are one of the few cards out this product that actually look significantly different than other Panini products. I just can't see many people wanting to drop a ton more for a manufactured piece of metal that's worth $14 on it's own. I guess we'll see once the first auctions start closing..

[hairyangryfella]

What's the most expensive Olajuwon auto patch that's ever sold? I can't imagine Exquisite selling for $600, yet people with Eminence listed are asking for that (with best offer...). These may end up with a slight premium over other auto patches, but nothing makes them worth as much as people seem to think they are, just because they come from an ultra expensive box...

[Pratyush]

That's just one card sold though. I don't see any other sold listings on ebay at all although a few are up for auction. I will be very interested on how the ROI shapes up for this. I am some one who enjoys the old vintage cards far more. The discussions around this set have been interesting to follow, any ways.

[paul06901]

That's just one card sold though. I don't see any other sold listings on ebay at all although a few are up for auction. I will be very interested on how the ROI shapes up for this. I am some one who enjoys the old vintage cards far more. The discussions around this set have been interesting to follow, any ways.

This is what's most concerning.

We knew this was coming. The point where supply quantity is outweighing demand. There's so many addicted, deep-pocket gamblers who buy case after case or enter a million group breaks, and dump everything to eBay. The collectors have been getting overwhelmed and bored, and quitting. So now there's a huge imbalance in the hobby, affecting the secondary market. So many people selling, barely any people buying (other than to resell).

With ENEMA-nence, it's really showing true. People are still throwing money at Panini for literally the most overrated product of all-time, with the quality of a $400/box product, and they're dumping everything immediately to eBay as always.

But now we're seeing that people aren't buying. Not for anywhere NEAR the $750/card average based on box cost.


What we're truly seeing here, is that collectors are SMART and gamblers are STUPID. It's why people are paying $6k for a product that can potentially have a $20 Bill Walton card, and those collectors are only paying $20 for that Bill Walton card.


I think this set is setting the ultimate ceiling. Especially considering Panini literally has nothing new to offer us. It's really ridiculous if you think about it. Everything they put in the set has been done before, by them, and OVER-done. The cut autos are nothing special, and can all be purchased PSA/DNA on the secondary market for MUCH cheaper than the cost of their per/card rate in the product. No MJ, no LBJ ... best player is Kobe who's values are averaging 1/2 to 1/3 of LBJ and 1/8 of MJ (Bulls) ... there is NO justification whatsoever for ANY product Panini produces to have this cost.


With that said, beware if you're bidding or buying now. You can bet that many sellers will shill/manipulate auctions to help recoup their costs. Also, there will be external shillers who are shilling other auctions in order to protect the investment of their OWN cards and try to price-fix the values.


This is a bad, but interesting time for the hobby.

[jprk31]

This is what's most concerning.

We knew this was coming. The point where supply quantity is outweighing demand. There's so many addicted, deep-pocket gamblers who buy case after case or enter a million group breaks, and dump everything to eBay. The collectors have been getting overwhelmed and bored, and quitting. So now there's a huge imbalance in the hobby, affecting the secondary market. So many people selling, barely any people buying (other than to resell).

With ENEMA-nence, it's really showing true. People are still throwing money at Panini for literally the most overrated product of all-time, with the quality of a $400/box product, and they're dumping everything immediately to eBay as always.

But now we're seeing that people aren't buying. Not for anywhere NEAR the $750/card average based on box cost.


What we're truly seeing here, is that collectors are SMART and gamblers are STUPID. It's why people are paying $6k for a product that can potentially have a $20 Bill Walton card, and those collectors are only paying $20 for that Bill Walton card.


I think this set is setting the ultimate ceiling. Especially considering Panini literally has nothing new to offer us. It's really ridiculous if you think about it. Everything they put in the set has been done before, by them, and OVER-done. The cut autos are nothing special, and can all be purchased PSA/DNA on the secondary market for MUCH cheaper than the cost of their per/card rate in the product. No MJ, no LBJ ... best player is Kobe who's values are averaging 1/2 to 1/3 of LBJ and 1/8 of MJ (Bulls) ... there is NO justification whatsoever for ANY product Panini produces to have this cost.


With that said, beware if you're bidding or buying now. You can bet that many sellers will shill/manipulate auctions to help recoup their costs. Also, there will be external shillers who are shilling other auctions in order to protect the investment of their OWN cards and try to price-fix the values.


This is a bad, but interesting time for the hobby.
Good point Paul. It's a shame how Panini has pushed the limits. Hopefully this would be the end to this super priced products. Let's just return to NT and Immaculate. Enough of this gimmicks ie diamond,ruby,silver,gold & platinum crap! I want memorabilia not jewelry on my cards Panini.

[gomiamigo]

^^Game, set, match.

Not remotely.

Why is it so hard to understand that some people are pure collectors and some others who just love to rip. ROI% doesn't enter into any of my high-end case purchases. I do it for fun and hopefully to hit some great cards of PC guys I collect.

I am not buying this product because I don't like the look of the cards, the pricing is a much smaller issue to me.

[alanlam]

Good point Paul. It's a shame how Panini has pushed the limits. Hopefully this would be the end to this super priced products. Let's just return to NT and Immaculate. Enough of this gimmicks ie diamond,ruby,silver,gold & platinum crap! I want memorabilia not jewelry on my cards Panini.

Can you blame them for pushing the limits? Their job is to make a profit. They push the limits in pretty much every retail business there is. Apple has a watch that costs like 10 grand. Luxury cars. Coffee at Starbucks. Just about any clothing line. Nike. Sporting event ticket sales. Pretty much anything you can think of. This is what businesses do.

If they sold out of Eminence, they'll make it again next year and they might push those limits even further with something else.

I think sometimes we get to caught up with this being our little hobby and we criticize Panini for doing what any for profit business should do.

Now, if you want to say they executed the majority of this product poorly, that's a different argument and I'd be siding with you. But I don't blame them at all for trying this.

[jprk31]

Can you blame them for pushing the limits? Their job is to make a profit. They push the limits in pretty much every retail business there is. Apple has a watch that costs like 10 grand. Luxury cars. Coffee at Starbucks. Just about any clothing line. Nike. Sporting event ticket sales. Pretty much anything you can think of. This is what businesses do.

If they sold out of Eminence, they'll make it again next year and they might push those limits even further with something else.

I think sometimes we get to caught up with this being our little hobby and we criticize Panini for doing what any for profit business should do.

Now, if you want to say they executed the majority of this product poorly, that's a different argument and I'd be siding with you. But I don't blame them at all for trying this.
As long as there are other people that will be on the other side finding ways to argue that Panini is doing this for a profit without consideration for the hobby then yes they would continue to make it.
People will find excuse to support their hobby or addiction whatever it might be. To each is his own. It's just sad that people tolerate this kinds of product for the sake of arguing that Panini needs to make it for a profit since its business for them.

[imacreative]

I broke a box of this recently. It was not very practical, and everyone has made great points in this thread. I have to agree with goamigo from a personal point of view.

But I also understand and agree with Paul with their take on the big picture of the state of our hobby. What I don't agree with is when judgement is passed on to those that has bought the product.

[Pratyush]

I am also a collector but when I buy, I do look at what price I am paying and think of how the value will shape up later on. I may still buy things which I feel are not that valuable resell wise (even if I don't resell), but I can't help thinking about it at least.

[alanlam]

As long as there are other people that will be on the other side finding ways to argue that Panini is doing this for a profit without consideration for the hobby then yes they would continue to make it.
People will find excuse to support their hobby or addiction whatever it might be. To each is his own. It's just sad that people tolerate this kinds of product for the sake of arguing that Panini needs to make it for a profit since its business for them.

Huh?

I'm not on the other side. I'm not buying Eminence. I rarely buy any new wax anymore. Thats how I show my opinion of products. With my money. The same way I'm not buying a $10k Apple Watch. But I'm not going to knock them for pushing the limits.

Also, THIS IS A BUSINESS. If people are willing to pay for this than more power to them and Panini. I think Panini executed this poorly. But there's nothing wrong with trying it.

[dasiegel]

Can you blame them for pushing the limits? Their job is to make a profit. They push the limits in pretty much every retail business there is. Apple has a watch that costs like 10 grand. Luxury cars. Coffee at Starbucks. Just about any clothing line. Nike. Sporting event ticket sales. Pretty much anything you can think of. This is what businesses do.

If they sold out of Eminence, they'll make it again next year and they might push those limits even further with something else.

I think sometimes we get to caught up with this being our little hobby and we criticize Panini for doing what any for profit business should do.

Now, if you want to say they executed the majority of this product poorly, that's a different argument and I'd be siding with you. But I don't blame them at all for trying this.

I think a lot of this topic is misdirected anger. So many of us feel like Panini screws the customer. In my world, David Sharp has been a great guy to work with and I have never had a problem with customer service. I know others say differently but I can only speak for myself. The content Panini puts out to me is pretty good. It's great product, dud, dud, great product, dud, dud, great product. Hoops, Prizm, Contenders, those haven't been bad. Hoops was very good. I didn't touch Complete so idk about it.

Where am I going with this? I think people on here aren't as mad at Panini as they are mad about the people who buy all the garbage. In any other market, even when oil prices got too high a few years ago there was a backlash. Because there are no repercussions for Panini here they keep pushing the envelope and have the exclusive.

With Flawless we saw the quality of the boxes and if you even got hit #2 (I did) in a group break you may have lost your buy in $. This Eminence thing is like that on steroids. I think people are just really angry that this product may encourage Panini to make more high end, gimmicky junk. But that is why we are allowed to voice our opinions here and hope to change a few minds. I'm not anti any company like many are on here, I'm anti bad product.

[alanlam]

I don't get why you guys are so upset at people for buying this. Its not your money.

You should organize. Gather up all of the people that are mad that people bought this. Track down the people that bought Eminence. Tell them how you don't approve of the way they spend their money on a hobby. Get them to not spend it on Eminence next year.

Panini will listen then. Just let me know some of the responses you get when you tell these guys how to spend their dough.

[xavieronly1]

Huh?

I'm not on the other side. I'm not buying Eminence. I rarely buy any new wax anymore. Thats how I show my opinion of products. With my money. The same way I'm not buying a $10k Apple Watch. But I'm not going to knock them for pushing the limits.

Also, THIS IS A BUSINESS. If people are willing to pay for this than more power to them and Panini. I think Panini executed this poorly. But there's nothing wrong with trying it.

Another thing that people do not notice is that, Panini actually does not earn more profit from this product even though the price tag is high. It is still around $3-4 million in total MSRP. The whole product for Flawless is about the same range. The cost of having Silver/Gold/Platinum bar is the about same as asking Mark Jackson, Fat Lever, and 100+ players to sign in Flawless.

So, in the end, it is just another ultra high-end release, but with less cases made.

[alanlam]

I think a lot of this topic is misdirected anger. So many of us feel like Panini screws the customer. In my world, David Sharp has been a great guy to work with and I have never had a problem with customer service. I know others say differently but I can only speak for myself. The content Panini puts out to me is pretty good. It's great product, dud, dud, great product, dud, dud, great product. Hoops, Prizm, Contenders, those haven't been bad. Hoops was very good. I didn't touch Complete so idk about it.

Where am I going with this? I think people on here aren't as mad at Panini as they are mad about the people who buy all the garbage. In any other market, even when oil prices got too high a few years ago there was a backlash. Because there are no repercussions for Panini here they keep pushing the envelope and have the exclusive.

With Flawless we saw the quality of the boxes and if you even got hit #2 (I did) in a group break you may have lost your buy in $. This Eminence thing is like that on steroids. I think people are just really angry that this product may encourage Panini to make more high end, gimmicky junk. But that is why we are allowed to voice our opinions here and hope to change a few minds. I'm not anti any company like many are on here, I'm anti bad product.

So what are people mad at? That they can't afford it? That they don't like it? And why is it being directed at people buying this stuff? Just don't buy it. Don't buy singles either. Go on with your lives. Everything will be okay.

I think Panini sucks. I think this product sucks. I'm not into shiny cheap metals and streaky autos. But I don't particularly care if someone buys their products. And I don't blame Panini for pushing the limits and making that product.

[Andrew Jones]

So what are people mad at? That they can't afford it? That they don't like it? And why is it being directed at people buying this stuff? Just don't buy it. Don't buy singles either. Go on with your lives. Everything will be okay.

I think Panini sucks. I think this product sucks. I'm not into shiny cheap metals and streaky autos. But I don't particularly care if someone buys their products. And I don't blame Panini for pushing the limits and making that product.

Some people who have a crappy experience at a restaurant simply chose not to eat at that restaurant again, others go on Yelp and give it a terrible review, while others call to complain, write letters, stand out front with a sign, etc. Different strokes for different folks.

[alanlam]

Some people who have a crappy experience at a restaurant simply chose not to eat at that restaurant again, others go on Yelp and give it a terrible review, while others call to complain, write letters, stand out front with a sign, etc. Different strokes for different folks.

Fair enough.

I think this is more like people standing outside a restaurant watching people eat through a window. Then complaining about the restaurants prices and motives.

[dasiegel]

So what are people mad at? That they can't afford it? That they don't like it? And why is it being directed at people buying this stuff? Just don't buy it. Don't buy singles either. Go on with your lives. Everything will be okay.

I think Panini sucks. I think this product sucks. I'm not into shiny cheap metals and streaky autos. But I don't particularly care if someone buys their products. And I don't blame Panini for pushing the limits and making that product.

Well I mean for some it's a simple as jealousy or wishing they could buy it. I mean there is plenty of junk and trolling on here because it's a forum and that's what happens. But I see a lot of the high end buyers and good members speaking out here too. I think the reason is because it's frustrating to see that some people will literally buy anything that they put out. They will only send the message to Panini that "these idiots will buy anything" which may affect how they handle the more common products we all commonly buy or affect the prices of those products. I don't see this product doing well. It was absolute a "test product" as someone said earlier to see if this was too much or if they can sell at this price point. I think for some it's just frustrating to watch people keep going back to the bar, craps table, hitting their head against a brick wall too.

I think what should be relieving is that there aren't too many BO breaks of this stuff and some people have drawn the line on this one.

[obzezzed]

So is National Treasures low-end, Flawless mid-end, and Eminence high-end now??? :confused:

[Pratyush]

Approximately how many total cards exist?

[Andrew Jones]

Approximately how many total cards exist?

6,142

[jprk31]

So is National Treasures low-end, Flawless mid-end, and Eminence high-end now??? :confused:

Depending on the outcome of this product. It looks like that's what we are looking at. It's sad but it's the truth. And Panini needs to make a profit so we can't do anything about it.

[hairyangryfella]

Fair enough.

I think this is more like people standing outside a restaurant watching people eat through a window. Then complaining about the restaurants prices and motives.
Very narrow-minded

Well I mean for some it's a simple as jealousy or wishing they could buy it. I mean there is plenty of junk and trolling on here because it's a forum and that's what happens. But I see a lot of the high end buyers and good members speaking out here too. I think the reason is because it's frustrating to see that some people will literally buy anything that they put out. They will only send the message to Panini that "these idiots will buy anything" which may affect how they handle the more common products we all commonly buy or affect the prices of those products. I don't see this product doing well. It was absolute a "test product" as someone said earlier to see if this was too much or if they can sell at this price point. I think for some it's just frustrating to watch people keep going back to the bar, craps table, hitting their head against a brick wall too.

I think what should be relieving is that there aren't too many BO breaks of this stuff and some people have drawn the line on this one.
Very well said

[pgisback]

Well I mean for some it's a simple as jealousy or wishing they could buy it. I mean there is plenty of junk and trolling on here because it's a forum and that's what happens. But I see a lot of the high end buyers and good members speaking out here too. I think the reason is because it's frustrating to see that some people will literally buy anything that they put out. They will only send the message to Panini that "these idiots will buy anything" which may affect how they handle the more common products we all commonly buy or affect the prices of those products. I don't see this product doing well. It was absolute a "test product" as someone said earlier to see if this was too much or if they can sell at this price point. I think for some it's just frustrating to watch people keep going back to the bar, craps table, hitting their head against a brick wall too.

I think what should be relieving is that there aren't too many BO breaks of this stuff and some people have drawn the line on this one.

So people are idiots because they want to spend their money on a product you don't like? You guys are making no sense. Not sure what the big deal is.

[alanlam]

Very narrow-minded


Very well said

Elaborate please. Because I think giving people a hard time for buying this is narrow minded. If I'm wrong I'd like to be enlightened.

[fdjizm]

Well I mean for some it's a simple as jealousy or wishing they could buy it.

I can buy a few boxes and not have anything else in my life affected. I join breaks all the times, buy boxes etc..
This product is just a bad money move, there is like literally 3 cards in the product that will have you break even on a box (if that).

Too risky even if it's for fun, just not much "up" side at all

[Pratyush]

If some one is a car lover who cannot afford to buy a big luxury card, doesn't mean he cannot say the car is over priced, or isn't good for the car lovers. In the end, card collecting is a hobby whether one collects 1 dollar cards or 1000 dollar cards. A big release like Eminence is going to affect cards in it's own way. There is bound to be discussion on such a release.

[hairyangryfella]

So people are idiots because they want to spend their money on a product you don't like? You guys are making no sense. Not sure what the big deal is.
At the time for the hobby to collectively take a stand and tell Panini that this is not acceptable, people still can't help themselves because they 'have to' buy the new product, even if they don't know why.

[hairyangryfella]

Elaborate please. Because I think giving people a hard time for buying this is narrow minded. If I'm wrong I'd like to be enlightened.
It's not because people 'can't be in the restaurant', it's because that restaurant is getting worse and worse with how they're treating the food and the customers, not to mention starting to cater for only the richest clients or groups, but some people just can't stop going because it's the only restaurant in town. If they actually stopped going, the restaurant might actually try and improve things and make it worth going back again.

[jj2]

Elaborate please. Because I think giving people a hard time for buying this is narrow minded. If I'm wrong I'd like to be enlightened.

To go back to your earlier point, apparently people buying those new fancy "create your taste" burgers and McDonalds are somehow ruining the cheeseburgers for the rest of us.

[pgisback]

At the time for the hobby to collectively take a stand and tell Panini that this is not acceptable, people still can't help themselves because they 'have to' buy the new product, even if they don't know why.

So you determine what is acceptable or not?

[AlabamaSlamma]

if this analogy gets to pineapple on a pizza, we have reached peak OJ.

[jj2]

if this analogy gets to pineapple on a pizza, we have reached peak OJ.

If you don't get pineapple on your pizza then, I'm sorry, but we can't be friends.

[hairyangryfella]

To go back to your earlier point, apparently people buying those new fancy "create your taste" burgers and McDonalds are somehow ruining the cheeseburgers for the rest of us.
Yeah, TOTALLY the same... :rolleyes:

So you determine what is acceptable or not?
WE, AS A COLLECTIVE HOBBY should be. This product is a farce, many of us know that, yet some people just can't stop buying, so the hobby continues to circle the bowl before it will eventually be flushed away. It can be stopped, but people have to be willing to change/take a stand, but right now they're too weak.

[xavieronly1]

To go back to your earlier point, apparently people buying those new fancy "create your taste" burgers and McDonalds are somehow ruining the cheeseburgers for the rest of us.

Is McDonald the only restaurant in town?

[Pratyush]

There would be around 600 boxes I would guess. Do you guys think all of them will be sold?

[Pratyush]

2015 16 Panini Eminence True 1 1 Orlando Magic Patch Auto Shaquille Oneal | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/231786206648?item=231786206648&lgeo=1&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true) Shaq 1/1 being offered for 10000 dollars.

[gamboooler]

2015 16 Panini Eminence True 1 1 Orlando Magic Patch Auto Shaquille Oneal | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/231786206648?item=231786206648&lgeo=1&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true) Shaq 1/1 being offered for 10000 dollars.

Looks like a Shaq Gold Standard Black Gold Patch with an Immaculate twist, some tacky/poorly used foil, and an IP signature.

[imacreative]

It's not because people 'can't be in the restaurant', it's because that restaurant is getting worse and worse with how they're treating the food and the customers, not to mention starting to cater for only the richest clients or groups, but some people just can't stop going because it's the only restaurant in town. If they actually stopped going, the restaurant might actually try and improve things and make it worth going back again.

And that's why the Panini restaurant creates dishes for everyone. At every price point. And they mostly edible - with a few highlight dishes.

There are some folks that can afford to taste gourmet unicorn meat from their market fresh menu. Some will balk on it. Some would be curious. A few may open that dish cover and find the beautiful horn, but most end up with the tuckus. It's not for everyone.

I wanted to experience it and ended up with the tuckus....and extras within.

[jj2]

WE, AS A COLLECTIVE HOBBY should be. This product is a farce, many of us know that, yet some people just can't stop buying, so the hobby continues to circle the bowl before it will eventually be flushed away. It can be stopped, but people have to be willing to change/take a stand, but right now they're too weak.

You're a very judgmental person, Hairy.

[alanlam]

It's not because people 'can't be in the restaurant', it's because that restaurant is getting worse and worse with how they're treating the food and the customers, not to mention starting to cater for only the richest clients or groups, but some people just can't stop going because it's the only restaurant in town. If they actually stopped going, the restaurant might actually try and improve things and make it worth going back again.

You implied that money isn't the issue yet you use it as part of your excuse for bashing buyers of this product. I'll steal this from you, it's pretty narrow minded to not expect a company to cater to its richer clientele.

I respect your point dasiegiel. You are worried that this is going to enable them. I'd be surprised if this product grosses more than Prizm or any other Panini product that sells even remotely well. I don't think this will encourage them to do anything differently. It might make them want to push it even further if it sells out. Like I said earlier, I won't buy, but I understand why they'd do it.

The people that should be mad are the people that invested money in Flawless under the assumption that it would be THE high end product of the year. I'd understand if you guys were frustrated.

[alanlam]

Yeah, TOTALLY the same... :rolleyes:


WE, AS A COLLECTIVE HOBBY should be. This product is a farce, many of us know that, yet some people just can't stop buying, so the hobby continues to circle the bowl before it will eventually be flushed away. It can be stopped, but people have to be willing to change/take a stand, but right now they're too weak.

This is insane. Did you just watch Gladiator or something? Have you considered the possibility that people might like these cards? Or is it just your opinion that matters in your revolution?

[hairyangryfella]

You're a very judgmental person, Hairy.
I stand up for what I believe in. The hobby I used to love is going down the toilet and the only licensed manufacturer is simply milking everything as much as they can with little thought to the future. Standards are low, quality is questionable, ethics... who knows.

But I guess to some extent I'm part what the poster above mentioned - angry that my Flawless collection has decreased in value by 2/3, even though I don't intend to sell any/many of them.

[hairyangryfella]

This is insane. Did you just watch Gladiator or something? Have you considered the possibility that people might like these cards? Or is it just your opinion that matters in your revolution?
Insane? Sorry that you expect everybody to be accepting and take it as it comes. Strange from a country that sues at the drop of a hat...

[GeechQuest]

I stand up for what I believe in. The hobby I used to love is going down the toilet and the only licensed manufacturer is simply milking everything as much as they can with little thought to the future. Standards are low, quality is questionable, ethics... who knows.

But I guess to some extent I'm part what the poster above mentioned - angry that my Flawless collection has decreased in value by 2/3, even though I don't intend to sell any/many of them.

I don't think your Flawless cards are devalued, and if so it will be very minimal. If anything the secondary price of Flawless cards will devalue this set. Like many have said why would I pay 5x the price for an Eminence patch auto when I can grab a very similar one from Flawless.

[jj2]

I stand up for what I believe in. The hobby I used to love is going down the toilet and the only licensed manufacturer is simply milking everything as much as they can with little thought to the future. Standards are low, quality is questionable, ethics... who knows.

But I guess to some extent I'm part what the poster above mentioned - angry that my Flawless collection has decreased in value by 2/3, even though I don't intend to sell any/many of them.

I've got no problem with you standing up for what you believe in but I think your tenancy to go straight for the jugular and make things personal hurts you in getting your point across sometimes.

[pgisback]

This is insane. Did you just watch Gladiator or something? Have you considered the possibility that people might like these cards? Or is it just your opinion that matters in your revolution?

I love the idea of mixing these metals in with the cards with the NBA logo or championship logo. I know their raw value doesn't come close to the card, but to me those are cool looking cards. I also hated Black Gold in football when I saw the pictures and the gold ink, but once I got couple in my hand, I absolutely love black gold now. I'll wait to judge these until I get some in hand. But apparently, we're idiots for liking something Harry doesn't like.

[hairyangryfella]

I don't think your Flawless cards are devalued, and if so it will be very minimal. If anything the secondary price of Flawless cards will devalue this set. Like many have said why would I pay 5x the price for an Eminence patch auto when I can grab a very similar one from Flawless.
Ask the guy who just sold most of his Flawless collection, that's what I'm basing that comment off. Tried leaving a value list for my wife for if anything happens to me and damn I need to adjust them down significantly...

I love the idea of mixing these metals in with the cards with the NBA logo or championship logo. I know their raw value doesn't come close to the card, but to me those are cool looking cards. I also hated Black Gold in football when I saw the pictures and the gold ink, but once I got couple in my hand, I absolutely love black gold now. I'll wait to judge these until I get some in hand. But apparently, we're idiots for liking something Harry doesn't like.
No, you're an idiot if you can't understand the basic concepts here. You can like the cards, but if you support them by BLINDLY buying this product because you just can't help it, and encourage them to continue putting out poorly designed or thought-out products by doing so, you are contributing to the downfall of the hobby. When will the line be drawn?

*you also state that the football market is much larger than the basketball market...

[fdjizm]

Tried leaving a value list for my wife for if anything happens to me and damn I need to adjust them down significantly...


Wasn't that always going to happen? cards aren't the best investment.

[GeechQuest]

Ask the guy who just sold most of his Flawless collection, that's what I'm basing that comment off. Tried leaving a value list for my wife for if anything happens to me and damn I need to adjust them down significantly...



Who would this guy be? The 14/15 Flawless cards I've been picking up have been roughly the same price since the product dropped.

[pgisback]

No, you're an idiot if you can't understand the basic concepts here. You can like the cards, but if you support them by BLINDLY buying this product because you just can't help it, and encourage them to continue putting out poorly designed or thought-out products by doing so, you are contributing to the downfall of the hobby. When will the line be drawn?

*you also state that the football market is much larger than the basketball market...

I like the designs. Not gonna lie. I'm sorry not everyone thinks like you. And the football market is bigger than the basketball market. The high end basketball market is bigger than the high end football market though. But after that, football dominates.

[hairyangryfella]

Who would this guy be? The 14/15 Flawless cards I've been picking up have been roughly the same price since the product dropped.
Well they're still the 'hot new' product, the older ones have tanked.