I would expect >99% of the boxes he authenticates to be legit. Would you agree that his cohort of wax he sees is >99% authentic?

The correct measure of his success is his sensitivity for bad packs/boxes/cases. Of all the bad wax that comes through his door, what proportion does he catch? It’s a statistic that’s impossible to know because the majority of what he authenticates stays sealed.

With the Pokemon case, Steve demonstrated that he’s fairly careless in his process, even on high end items. He’ll also authenticate a product he knows nothing about as long as the price is right. And when wrong, he won’t take responsibility for it.

With the 86F box, Steve demonstrated he’ll authenticate Frankenstein boxes after swapping out bad packs, and doesn’t think that needs to be disclosed. He’ll also make up an excuse for collation that’s never been seen before.

No company in this hobby is perfect. But it’s about how those mistakes occur.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18364124]
No company in this hobby is perfect. But it’s about how those mistakes occur.[/QUOTE]

True but you are being kind by using the word mistakes, these are not mistakes, this is at the least gross negligence and perhaps fraud at various levels.

A grader missing a print line can be a mistake, we are all human. What this company is doing has reached nearly criminal levels.

Exactly! It’s pretty clear scammers have been using BBCE to legitimize their fraudulent products. And Steve either doesn’t have the expertise to actually spot these fraudulent products, or he is in on the fraud. Possibly both.

[QUOTE=CanadianKid;18364136]True but you are being kind by using the word mistakes, these are not mistakes, this is at the least gross negligence and perhaps fraud at various levels.

A grader missing a print line can be a mistake, we are all human. What this company is doing has reached nearly criminal levels.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. But it’s easier to argue how bad the best case scenario is.

Did he get a motorcycle this time too?

[QUOTE=mc1;18364120]How about being a man and accepting that he made a mistake?

Instead we get this:

[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/siKk_EjvS4gAAAAd/duped-we-all-got-duped.gif[/IMG]

Or this:

[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/DmrW9-x8oS8AAAAM/one-in-a-million-steve-irwin.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Exactly. I don't think anyone here is asking for 100% perfection. But when you mess up, own it and take responsibility and make it right.

"We all got duped....agree???" is not what I want to hear from any authenticator or grading service rep and certainly not from an owner.

BBCE, you got duped. You got fooled. You messed up. You gave the hobby a black eye.

Stand by your services. When you're wrong, do everything you can to make it right. And don't insult/belittle your audience by using terms like "every advanced collector will tell you..."

btw, mc1 thanks again for sharing the gif :)!

I went back and found the video when Triple Double Sports opened the “tampered” pack from the box. The one with the Abdul-Jabbar sticker.

[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=osXVyIAu7uI[/url]

22:00 minute

These were the cards they showed or mentioned:

Natt
Norm Nixon
Oakley
Olajuwon
Parish
Paxson
Eric Floyd
World B Free

Thats not 12 cards, so they skipped and ignored some. I dont know if they were reading them from the first card down to the sticker or the other way. They dont show the opened pack.

Finally, was the box a built box with packs from many locations or did this box have one in a million collation? Its one or the other. It cant be both.

[QUOTE=mc1;18364289]Finally, was the box a built box with packs from many locations or did this box have one in a million collation? Its one or the other. It cant be both.[/QUOTE]
Depends on what day you ask Steve.

Did WhatNot Open a FAKE 1986-87 Fleer Basketball Box at The National?
 

[QUOTE=mc1;18364289]I went back and found the video when Triple Double Sports opened the “tampered” pack from the box. The one with the Abdul-Jabbar sticker.

[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=osXVyIAu7uI[/url]

22:00 minute

These were the cards they showed or mentioned:

Natt
Norm Nixon
Oakley
Olajuwon
Parish
Paxson
Eric Floyd
World B Free

Thats not 12 cards, so they skipped and ignored some. I dont know if they were reading them from the first card down to the sticker or the other way. They dont show the opened pack.

Finally, was the box a built box with packs from many locations or did this box have one in a million collation? Its one or the other. It cant be both.[/QUOTE]


Yeah that was my question. I thought the claim was that this was an authentic box, but it might have a mix of packs from different sources. So did all the packs exhibit this anomaly or just some? If they all did then I would seem statistically impossible that this never before seen collation would be consistent across random packs. If it was just some, then it might indicate some were tampered and others were not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=Archangel1775;18363510]Agreed, if he had PR manager it would've been a lot easier after they researched who they were dealing with. It simply wouldn't have happened at all.



[/QUOTE]

You should send him a proposal via email perhaps you can get that PR gig. Clearly BBCE means the world to you judging by your post count here, such a staunch defender/deflection master?

Perhaps your mate Steve at one time provided a service, looks like hes phoning it in these days

[QUOTE=mc1;18364289]
Finally, was the box a built box with packs from many locations or did this box have one in a million collation? Its one or the other. It cant be both.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it will be interesting to see what additional opinions Steve provides.

The sticker count suggests this was already a built box, before Steve swapped out a couple opened/resealed packs. If a full pack breakdown ever becomes available, it will be interesting to see how many "anomaly" packs were present.

Interestingly, Steve has previously noted that packs (sticker placement) came from [URL="https://www.bbcexchange.com/blog-1986-87-fleer-basketball"]Fleer in alphabetical order[/URL].
"This box is extremely fresh and exactly as Fleer made them. In fact, the packs were still in the alphabetical order in the way Fleer put them in rows of 9!"

I’m out the loop but just thought of something.

Does PSA guarantee the packs that Steve “authenticates”? I know BBCE doesn’t have any guarantee on their end.

[QUOTE=PSA2Pac;18364429]I’m out the loop but just thought of something.

Does PSA guarantee the packs that Steve “authenticates”? I know BBCE doesn’t have any guarantee on their end.[/QUOTE]

Nope.

Unless you take them to court, PSA has an out for just about everything they grade.

"the Guarantee does not apply to the authenticity or grade assigned to any unopened material, such as packs and boxes, nor is PSA responsible for any damage caused to a pack’s wrapper due to gum movement;"

[QUOTE=auburn35;18364503]Nope.

Unless you take them to court, PSA has an out for just about everything they grade.

"the Guarantee does not apply to the authenticity or grade assigned to any unopened material, such as packs and boxes, nor is PSA responsible for any damage caused to a pack’s wrapper due to gum movement;"[/QUOTE]

Gotcha thank you

I tried looking realquick but I missed that verbiage

People should just stop holding on to all this vintage wax and rip it open. Problem solved!

Technically it's not an authentic box if you start switching packs out and make it a Frankenbox. I mean we've already discussed the normal collation so by seeing one of the cards through the packs someone could search through the box and theoretically take the Jordan packs out. I realize there were some Jordan's pulled in the break but who knows at this point if they were legit from the box or lower grade ones swapped out with better one's that were originally in the box.

If that's what happened the alleged scammer wasn't too bright to go the extra mile and put the cards back in the correct collation sequence. Then no one would have been the wiser. That's why i wouldn't touch these old wax packs. No shrink wrap, wax packs are notorious for being resealed, and any half smart crook would do as described above.

[QUOTE=mc1;18364120]How about being a man and accepting that he made a mistake?

Instead we get this:

[/QUOTE]

Everyone that was between the first buyer of the fraudulent Pokemon case until it got to Jake Paul, got duped. It was all suspect, from the start of the online conversation, to the physical trip when the Pokey guy took the case to that shop that didn't want their faces to be shown. I wonder why. Yes, absolutely BBCE and Steve are partly responsible. But saying all those characters prior to Jake Paul weren't responsible in any way is completely BS.

To me it's no different than someone sending in a known altered card, getting it passed the TPG and saying, well, the TPG said it's good so I'm not responsible anymore....complete BS

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;18364555]Technically it's not an authentic box if you start switching packs out and make it a Frankenbox. [B]I mean we've already discussed the normal collation so by seeing one of the cards through the packs someone could search through the box and theoretically take the Jordan packs out. I realize there were some Jordan's pulled in the break but who knows at this point if they were legit from the box or lower grade ones swapped out with better one's that were originally in the box. [/B]

If that's what happened the alleged scammer wasn't too bright to go the extra mile and put the cards back in the correct collation sequence. Then no one would have been the wiser. That's why i wouldn't touch these old wax packs. No shrink wrap, wax packs are notorious for being resealed, and any half smart crook would do as described above.[/QUOTE]

That's another good point, why would a scammer include the legit MJ cards, then put the cards that were sequenced, in a different order, in this case alphabetical. That seems like a lot of work. Hopefully someone gets a full pack breakdown so that we can see if there is a mathematical explanation to this box's collation.

As for the condition, it was always common to open a few packs of a box to gage the centering of that run and if it started OC, to stop and move on to the next box. The NM 7 OC grades are not surprising. However, the alleged corner wear on one is concerning.

[QUOTE=auburn35;18364415]Yeah, it will be interesting to see what additional opinions Steve provides.

The sticker count suggests this was already a built box, before Steve swapped out a couple opened/resealed packs. If a full pack breakdown ever becomes available, it will be interesting to see how many "anomaly" packs were present.

Interestingly, Steve has previously noted that packs (sticker placement) came from [URL="https://www.bbcexchange.com/blog-1986-87-fleer-basketball"]Fleer in alphabetical order[/URL].
"This box is extremely fresh and exactly as Fleer made them. In fact, the packs were still in the alphabetical order in the way Fleer put them in rows of 9!"[/QUOTE]

That makes 0 sense "the packs were still in the alphabetical order in the way Fleer put them in rows of 9!". Fleer cut the cards from a sheet that was 11 across and 12 down. Even the sticker set had 11 in it. So where does he get the Fleer put them in rows of 9 from?

He also said that back in the 80s Fleer was pumping out product so much that errors would happen. Sure, I grew up collecting in the junk wax era, but NEVER have I seen or heard of this happening. In the 25ish years of the internet there would be some other store somewhere with this very same issue, but no one has been able to find one other than Hart describing another of his boxes.

Obviously though, this is a franken box judging by the sticker count even leaving the Jordan and Hakeem stickers in the count is off. You still would of had at least 5 Olajuwons maybe even 6 and only 2 Jordans.

Certified in the box

Jabbar – 3
Bird – 3
Dantley – 3
English – 3
Erving – 3
Ewing – 3
Johnson – 4
Jordan – 1
Olajuwon – 5
Thomas – 5
Wilkins – 4

Some things to wonder are, did WHATNOT have the certification with the sticker count and where they made aware of how the box was certified? Where did Triple Double get the box?

I stand by my statement that Triple Double repacked a box with lesser Jordans and other big name cards. With all of the 86 Fleer he has (judging by the videos of him sending and receiving 86 Fleer graded cards) adding in lesser ones and reselling the box would net him far more then had he graded them himself. Plus with the 3 lesser Jordans and what was supposed to have been 2 Jordan stickers even with the bad collation he could simply say it wasn't search because Jordans were pulled. Did Hart know about this? Maybe not since he removed 1 of the Jordan packs. WHATNOT is going to get its money back, either through Goldin or insurance or combination of the 2. I would be shocked if they hadn't taken some kind of insurance out on the boxes just in case things went really south like no Jordans being pulled.

[QUOTE=Archangel1775;18364625]That's another good point, why would a scammer include the legit MJ cards, then put the cards that were sequenced, in a different order, in this case alphabetical. That seems like a lot of work. Hopefully someone gets a full pack breakdown so that we can see if there is a mathematical explanation to this box's collation.

As for the condition, it was always common to open a few packs of a box to gage the centering of that run and if it started OC, to stop and move on to the next box. The NM 7 OC grades are not surprising. However, the alleged corner wear on one is concerning.[/QUOTE]

Here are the 3 Jordans on PSA's site

PSA 7 - [url]https://www.psacard.com/cert/65277648[/url]

PSA 7 - [url]https://www.psacard.com/cert/65278479[/url]

PSA - 6 [url]https://www.psacard.com/cert/65277523[/url]

The centering is off but you can find 8s and 9s that are about the same. The 6 is mainly due to the white spot to the left of Jordan's name. By PSAs standards that is enough to make it a 6 at best.

Some examples are

BGS 9 - [url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/385051161971?hash=item59a6d67573:g:xZMAAOSwBkdi6Epd[/url]

BGS 8.5 - [url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/155105376376?hash=item241d003878:g:WUMAAOSwAgBi7EaS[/url]

PSA 8.5 - [url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/265813806889?hash=item3de3bccf29:g:QRYAAOSwMR9i7DIP[/url]

PSA 8 - [url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/265813781582?hash=item3de3bc6c4e:g:H9sAAOSw~35i2f1r[/url]

PSA 9 - [url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/363932557165?hash=item54bc121f6d:g:HuwAAOSwuuZi7DIM[/url]

PSA 8 - [url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/325296259609?hash=item4bbd2b0219:g:ZbQAAOSwwNxi2w5-[/url]

PSA 9(OC) - [url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/353394640278?epid=10052893648&hash=item5247f64596:g:fRQAAOSwQjNgLrL7[/url]

[QUOTE=mc1;18364289]I went back and found the video when Triple Double Sports opened the “tampered” pack from the box. The one with the Abdul-Jabbar sticker.

[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=osXVyIAu7uI[/url]

22:00 minute

These were the cards they showed or mentioned:

Natt
Norm Nixon
Oakley
Olajuwon
Parish
Paxson
Eric Floyd
World B Free

Thats not 12 cards, so they skipped and ignored some. I dont know if they were reading them from the first card down to the sticker or the other way. They dont show the opened pack.

Finally, was the box a built box with packs from many locations or did this box have one in a million collation? Its one or the other. It cant be both.[/QUOTE]

Interesting that the Akeem was in there. He was an NBA star from the start. The explanation in the video of that seal being pressed seems correct but now I'm wondering if the pack being 4 cards short may have factored into that. Either way, easy fail with only 8 cards. The centering was good, consistent and the corners looked perfect. Maybe this is the most important factor in the explanation. I want to see what's in the MJ sticker with the popped seal now.

[U]Kareem Sticker (Failed Authentication)(Only 8 cards + Sticker)[/U] -Per video, no word or anything edited out but the pack was not on screen
79 Calvin Natt
80 Norm Nixon
81 Charles Oakley
82 Akeem Olajuwon
84 Robert Parish
85 Jim Paxson
34 Eric Floyd
35 World B Free

Heres the video of some pictures of a few packs from this box.

[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UsdZ008MW-Q[/url]

The guy mentions that the sticker count is correct and nothing is off. :confused:

In the comments he claims he bought the box in 1990 for $1100.

[QUOTE=FBCardFan;18364678]Here are the 3 Jordans on PSA's site

PSA 7 - [url]https://www.psacard.com/cert/65277648[/url]

PSA 7 - [url]https://www.psacard.com/cert/65278479[/url]

PSA - 6 [url]https://www.psacard.com/cert/65277523[/url]

The centering is off but you can find 8s and 9s that are about the same. The 6 is mainly due to the white spot to the left of Jordan's name. By PSAs standards that is enough to make it a 6 at best.

[/QUOTE]

I can also see some extra paper on the top left of the PSA 6. It extends beyond the standard size of the card. I think it's important to see the rest of the cards in the pack to compare centering. The NM 7 -648 is really nice except the centering. The one I would question is the -479, some touches of white on 3 of the 4 corners so the rest of the pack is important to see. Then again, you also have about 3-4 guys jumping up and down and sleeving them instead of just raw dawging with CS1's . Thanks for the links.

[QUOTE=Archangel1775;18364605]Everyone that was between the first buyer of the fraudulent Pokemon case until it got to Jake Paul, got duped. It was all suspect, from the start of the online conversation, to the physical trip when the Pokey guy took the case to that shop that didn't want their faces to be shown. I wonder why. Yes, absolutely BBCE and Steve are partly responsible. But saying all those characters prior to Jake Paul weren't responsible in any way is completely BS.

To me it's no different than someone sending in a known altered card, getting it passed the TPG and saying, well, the TPG said it's good so I'm not responsible anymore....complete BS[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Steve/BBCE isn't the only one to blame in the Pokemon scam, but Steve/BBCE was the only one in the room paid to authenticate the case.

Steve/BBCE failed and instead of owning it, Steve tries to bring everyone in the room down with him. I'd rather he accept responsibility and then let other people come to his defense instead of him trying to pass the blame around as quickly as possible.

When you open up shop as an authenticator, your job is to spot the legit stuff and the fake stuff. Of course ppl are going to try to get stuff past you (unfortunately) but that comes with the territory. If you don't know how to spot fakes, ppl should not be paying you to slab real stuff.

Companies like BBCE are supposed to exist to weed out fake stuff so ppl that see their label can have confidence it's legit.

If I see a Pokemon case sealed by BBCE, it gives me very little confidence that case is legit because BBCE sealed a fake case.

If I see a 1986 Fleer box sealed by BBCE, it gives me very little confidence that box is legit because BBCE sealed a box that was tampered with.

In any case of fraud you always follow the money. Well here is the money:

Triple Double Sports Card has

14x 86 Fleer graded Jordans, 1 BGS 6.5 and 1 BGS 7 the rest are 8s and higher. [url]https://tripledoublesportscards.com/product-category/all/80s/?jsf=jet-engine&_s=1986%20fleer%20jordan[/url]

250 graded 86 Fleer cards for sale. [url]https://tripledoublesportscards.com/product-category/all/80s/?jsf=jet-engine&_s=1986%20fleer[/url]

If anyone had anything to gain from this it was him. He had the motive (money ie individual card value of $20-$35k vs $168k for the box) and opportunity to do this.

I don't know for certain if he did or didn't but my money would be on him. Maybe Hart knew about it maybe he counted on Hart being an idiot. My hopes are that the FBI opens a case on this. They have investigated several sports card fraud cases before and they usually end with someone going to jail.