[QUOTE=mrbasepauly;14742893]Over 109 pages, wow. Wonder when/if Beckett will chime in at some time.[/QUOTE]

page never

[QUOTE=StayingWarm;14738118]This thread is turning into a referendum on the poor state of American math and critical thinking skills. [B][U]The fact is that we have a great deal of evidence that strongly suggests something nefarious has occurred within BGS and its relationship with Joe Clemons[/U][/B]:

• [B]We have proof that Joe receives a MINIMUM of 14% of PERFECT 10 BLACK LABELS in his submissions[/B]. It is possible that the real percentage is higher, as there is some debate as to the completion of the data set used to arrive at this number.

• [B]This 14% appears to be a statistical anomaly on par with someone winning the Powerball in back to back drawings[/B]. It seems that people may be getting hung up on 14% in the absolute, saying things like “well, if it were 30% it would be high” and “14% seems normal”. This is incorrect analysis. While we don’t have a complete dataset, we have significant anecdotal evidence to suggest that other “best in class” graders receive somewhere around 4% Black Labels and we have (to my knowledge) exactly zero cases of anybody who either personally or even knows of someone who has received even 6% Black Labels over a significant sample size. The impact of this absolute cannot be over-stated. See my post #2015 for an attempt to explain this in simple terms. Any stats PhD out there want to give it a shot to succeed where I have failed?

• [B]We have a case of Joe purposefully failing to provide information that could potentially help clear his name[/B], namely the %s of these same submissions that were given a 10 grade (but not Black Label). Occam’s Razor would tell us this is because he feels the information will not help him. We have seen from work by kyaa that anecdotally Joe receives a large % of 10 grades. It is likely that this information would present a similar statistical anomaly as to the above.

• [B]Additionally, we have several examples of where Joe has “beaten extreme odds”[/B], including:[INDENT]o Having the only 2018-19 Panini Prizm silver prizm Black Label (out of thousands of cards submitted)[/INDENT][INDENT]o Having the only 2018-19 Panini Prizm blue prizm Black Label (out of thousands of cards submitted)[/INDENT][INDENT]o Having something like 50% of the total number of 2018 Topps Chrome Update Black Labels in existence (out of many thousands of cards graded)[/INDENT][INDENT]o Having two of the three 2001 Upper Deck Gallery Tiger Woods Black Labels in existence (out of thousands of cards graded)[/INDENT][INDENT]o Having received three Black Labels in a single submission of three cards. Even if these cards were RCRd, that seems like the most unlikeliest of results for any submitter regardless of how well-trained and previously successful[/INDENT]
• [B]We have additional circumstantial evidence to support the conditions necessary for Joe and someone(s) in BGS to knowingly give/receive preferential grades[/B], including:[INDENT]o Joe used to be an employee at BGS and remains friends with several active BGS graders[/INDENT][INDENT]o Joe uses submission techniques that would maximize the chances of removing any “blinds” from the process, including dropping off submissions in person (which allows graders to know they are getting cards from him) and using same day submissions (which allow him to know which grader(s) is/are likely to grade his cards)[/INDENT][INDENT]o Joe’s submissions have, at times, appeared to not follow standard BGS operating procedures, such as grouping of Black Labels together, etc.[/INDENT]
[B]Taken together, this evidence provides a strong case that Joe has someone(s) at BGS who provide him with “special treatment” in the form of grading results that far and away exceed what he or any other highly successful, high-volume grader should receive.[/B]

Now, does this data meet the US criminal justice system requirement for conviction of “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt”? No, probably not, at least in my opinion. But it could meet the US civil justice system for “a preponderance of evidence”, especially when Joe has failed to provide other evidence that should tip the scales in his favor were he not involved in nefarious conduct. And in reality this is neither a criminal or a civil court case, but an assessment of a market that relies (as most markets do) on the trust of parties in the good intentions of one of the market participants (in this case BGS). [U][B]To me, the data presented above is enough to cause me to lose faith in BGS as a neutral arbiter of card condition and, for me, to change my buying habits accordingly. [/B] [/U]

[B]Now, there are certainly things that could change my opinion[/B]. BGS could release its entire database and we could see that there are in fact “more Joes” out there who receive a seemingly improbably % of Black Label and/or 10 grades. We could get Joe’s full dataset that shows he’s really submitted millions of cards and actually receives Black Labels closer to 2-4% and has been playing up his “eagle eye” reputation for personal status. Sure, that’s dumb and unlikely, but it’s an example of something that could change opinions. But in the absence of more data both math and critical thinking tell us that something nefarious is likely to have occurred between Joe Clemons and BGS, and we should all proceed accordingly. Thanks to kyaa, Superdan49 and others for helping us get to the point where we can all make informed opinions about the parties involved.

EDIT: I don't know Joe or, to my knowledge, anyone who has posted in this thread. I actually don't even think this issue is about Joe. To me, it's about the status of BGS as a neutral arbiter of card condition (and, as follows, card value). And that status is not as good as it was before this thread...[/QUOTE]

Still true.

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;14742134]Because that's the scam.

Basically (my opinion) he's getting his cards pre graded by his buddy outside of BGS headquarters at the shows. When he turns in 100 RCR 10's he probably gets 20-30 black labels back.

He has hundreds and hundreds possibly thousands of gold 10's. Just since last August his eBay inventory has several hundred gold 10's included.

742 cards currently for sale.

218 of them are BGS 10's.

He has 351 cards in his sold listings history.

171 of those were BGS 10's. 48.72%

The dates go back as far as August 17 of 2018 but the majority of them were sold this year.

1093 total cards. Which have previously sold + are still for sale.

389 of those are BGS 10's (black labels included)

35.59% of his eBay inventory since August 17 are BGS 10[/QUOTE]


To me this makes the most sense. We have so many consecutive serial numbered cards that goes directly against what Beckett states they always do. He also admits that he worked shows for Beckett. I assume he worked with RCR at the shows.

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;14742134]Because that's the scam.

Basically (my opinion) he's getting his cards pre graded by his buddy outside of BGS headquarters at the shows. When he turns in 100 RCR 10's he probably gets 20-30 black labels back.

He has hundreds and hundreds possibly thousands of gold 10's. Just since last August his eBay inventory has several hundred gold 10's included.

742 cards currently for sale.

218 of them are BGS 10's.

He has 351 cards in his sold listings history.

171 of those were BGS 10's. 48.72%

The dates go back as far as August 17 of 2018 but the majority of them were sold this year.

1093 total cards. Which have previously sold + are still for sale.

389 of those are BGS 10's (black labels included)

35.59% of his eBay inventory since August 17 are BGS 10[/QUOTE]

Bingo. RCR outside of the standard process.

[QUOTE=GoBeavs;14742158]Which then leads us back to the "witch hunt". What good comes from burning Joe at the stake? Nothing I can think of other than the joy of tearing someone down. Wouldn't the hobby be better served to focus on making changes at BGS? Just because no one from there is posting here is completely irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

Interesting to see the consistent change of tune by the gang. Let's leave Joe alone and blame the real culprit, BGS! Ironically though, I am with you on that. I have no desire to continue the bashing of poor Joe Clemons, he just wants to continue being active in the hobby after all. It's become pretty apparent what he has been involved in to this point, now it's just beating a dead horse.

Let's turn our attention to not only BGS, but to Brian Gray. I am now convinced after, admittedly, thinking for the past week about where you people come from, that BG is the main culprit behind all these shenanigans. He has been giving Joe bad advice for years. While Joe is a pretty level headed guy and cares deeply for the hobby, he couldn't resist getting caught up in the shady games of BG (for whatever reasons). Joe has been very beneficial to BG during this time. He's a smart guy, he's good with people, he worked at Beckett (probably due to his love of cards in the first place), he knows how to network, etc, etc. But BG can not help living in the dark side of the hobby and doing whatever it takes to make money, which includes using people to his advantage.

Anyway, just my opinion. Carry on. All speculation :)

[QUOTE=brentandbecca;14742023]With all that is going on with PWCC/PSA/BVG I am surprised to see some of our community that don't see anything unusual or suspect here. Where money is involved there is always temptation. Do we really believe that favors or deals are not made in this hobby? That people who know people don't sometimes help one another? It's not possible that 2-3 or more are involved in something like favorable grading? Maybe not with this specific situation but [B]I know there will be more to come out over time and hopefully it will be presented with facts yet not so much speculation.[/B][/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=blackbears86;14742225]For those who say there are people in this thread with "pitchforks" and a mob mentality----I am waiting to see your response to Brent.[/QUOTE]

Blackbears: I've used "mob," "pitchforks," and "burned at the stake" liberally in this thread. Also, I bolded a different part of Brent's quote.

Brent: always good to have long-time well-respected names in the thread. I agree with the last sentence, wholeheartedly. Amen, brother. Depending on who you're referring to at the beginning of the post, I may disagree. I don't see many people saying there is nothing unusual going on. Joe gets more black labels than anyone else, and he gets them more frequently. Many of us in the anti-mob crowd just want something to be proven before someone's name is dragged through the mud. See: Sunil Tripathi. But based on the latter part of that paragraph, I think you agree.

I like Bluestreak's quote: "Better to conclude late but correctly than conclude first but erroneously."

And I like Benjamin Franklin's quote: "That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer..."

[QUOTE=DaRitz;14743165]Blackbears: I've used "mob," "pitchforks," and "burned at the stake" liberally in this thread. Also, I bolded a different part of Brent's quote.

Brent: always good to have long-time well-respected names in the thread. I agree with the last sentence, wholeheartedly. Amen, brother. Depending on who you're referring to at the beginning of the post, I may disagree. I don't see many people saying there is nothing unusual going on. Joe gets more black labels than anyone else, and he gets them more frequently. Many of us in the anti-mob crowd just want something to be proven before someone's name is dragged through the mud. See: Sunil Tripathi. But based on the latter part of that paragraph, I think you agree.

I like Bluestreak's quote: "Better to conclude late but correctly than conclude first but erroneously."

And I like Benjamin Franklin's quote: "That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer..."[/QUOTE]

Great stuff, as always. Love the quote by Ben Franklin after a Bluestreak quote. They are basically on the same level in my book.

In case you are serious, I'll just say this; the countless amount of information and details provided in this thread, is enough proof for many of us to form an opinion. He is not on trial, remember?

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;14742247]I’ll take this one.

If I submitted the same cards the “accused” has submitted, do I believe I would have the same favorable results. Put a gun to my head, my answer is no.

Do I think that he has a sweet deal with BGS that is likely better than any group sub/bulk rate deal out there. Don’t need to put a gun to my head, I’d probably do for sure! He better, he worked there lol.

Does the above necessitate a 100+ page thread equivalent to burning someone at the stake? No, not without more evidence. You can lean one way in your opinions. But just don’t call people out till you have the data. Same can be said in the EARLY stages of the PWCC stuff. [B]Better to conclude late but correctly than conclude first but erroneously[/B][/QUOTE]

LOL, they both suck. When you're late, you're out a ton of money and when you conclude first but erroneously you end up looking like an ahole. I guess it's better to be an ahole than to be out a lot of money.

[QUOTE=DaRitz;14743165]Blackbears: I've used "mob," "pitchforks," and "burned at the stake" liberally in this thread. Also, I bolded a different part of Brent's quote.

Brent: always good to have long-time well-respected names in the thread. I agree with the last sentence, wholeheartedly. Amen, brother. Depending on who you're referring to at the beginning of the post, I may disagree. I don't see many people saying there is nothing unusual going on. Joe gets more black labels than anyone else, and he gets them more frequently. Many of us in the anti-mob crowd just want something to be proven before someone's name is dragged through the mud. See: Sunil Tripathi. But based on the latter part of that paragraph, I think you agree.

I like Bluestreak's quote: "Better to conclude late but correctly than conclude first but erroneously."

[B]And I like Benjamin Franklin's quote: "That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer..."[/B][/QUOTE]

I like Ben Franklin BUT that's a terrible quote.

[QUOTE=3124508 on COMC;14720483]He also got the first 20 cases (if you are to believe him) of 2013 Leaf Metal Draft and sold the cards before anyone else got the product:

[url]https://www.freedomcardboard.com/forum/showthread.php/119868-First-leaf-metal-on-eBay[/url]

Pretty lucky 20 cases, no?

Also of note is that apparently First Class Card Guys "also had the table at the National in Chicago with hundreds of Leaf printing plates".[/QUOTE]

Just went back to the first page and read this thread for the first time. My god, lol. They've been doing this for how long!?! Some shocking similarities between these two threads!

:cry::cry::cry:

P.S. I take back anything nice I've said about Joe Clemons.

Let’s not lose track of the situation...

An ex-employee of BGS, who still has relationships inside the company, receives a disproportionate amount of incredibly difficult grades (ie black labels)...

Quack quack...

[QUOTE=salthill;14743216]Let’s not lose track of the situation...

An ex-employee of BGS, who still has relationships inside the company, receives a [B]disproportionate[/B] amount of incredibly difficult grades (ie black labels)...

Quack quack...[/QUOTE]

It's not even that it's disproportionate, it's completely improbable.

Joe worked at BGS.
Joe drops off cards in person.
Joe cleans house with Black Labels at astronomical proportions that blow away any other submitter on record.
Joe's Black Labels are entered in Pop report in an unusual sequential method.
Joe clears Black Labels on cards that have never had Black Labels before.
Joe profits.

Where is the disconnect for people to not see how this just doesn't make sense?

First time chiming in on this. As several people have noted this is a forum conversation and not a trial or at this point even an acknowledged investigation. IF it ever gets to that, subpoenas or document requests, and then testimony under oath would follow and we would not be dealing with selective data production, self limited by the person or persons who are being looked at.

With that said, from a preliminary standpoint the inaccurate data is VERY troubling. To get just the percentage of black labels he was willing to provide stretches credulity to its breaking point. The he’s got a good eye argument might hold water if he were getting one standard deviation better than others. I would expect him to do better than me or casual collectors. However his stats that he was willing to let out are like if 1961-62 season Wilt was playing against grade school kids it’s so far on the fringe. He’s not an outlier, he’s off the tail end of the chart all by his lonesome.

If that’s what he’s willing to show, a reasonable assumption is the stuff he won’t disclose is unhelpful. From my experience over the last 25 years of what I do, the stuff they don’t want to disclose is where the key evidence is. In fact, the law in most states Holds there is a presumption that if you have information and refuse to provide it, the jury or other fact finder can presume it would be harmful to your claim. Could it be the huge percent of pristine 10’s he has received over and above the black labels? Possibly. Could be anything or nothing but the presumption stands at this point.

Finally, this is not a court case and the individual in question does not have to provide anything, so the fact someone here was able to get even limited data has to be very helpful, if for nothing else to allow people to make a reasoned decision on grading with Beckett given this hard to explain discrepancy.

Disclosure wise I don’t know Joe, OP or anyone else in this thread other than seeing their names in this forum, or selling a few cards to people like Jewcer. I have graded twice with BGS and don’t “invest” in graded cards but have seen the value benefits in that, until the recent s... storm.

[QUOTE=Cubsfanp;14741959]Fixed it for you. This thread would be better served if it understood the bolded was the real issue. Unfortunately, Kyaa steered you wrong from the beginning.[/QUOTE]

Wrong

Grading companies should simply not allow employees or past employees to use their services.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;14742247]Does the above necessitate a 100+ page thread equivalent to burning someone at the stake? No, not without more evidence. You can lean one way in your opinions. But just don’t call people out till you have the data. Same can be said in the EARLY stages of the PWCC stuff. Better to conclude late but correctly than conclude first but erroneously[/QUOTE]

WE HAVE THE DATA. Joe's cards as part of a group submission got 5% black labels, the ones he submitted on his own in person got a minimum of 14% black labels. Add to that Joe has submitted cards for grading that are only profitable if he gets a black label. Don Draper would be ashamed of how gullible you're being.

[QUOTE=dizzydolse;14743199]Just went back to the first page and read this thread for the first time. My god, lol. They've been doing this for how long!?! Some shocking similarities between these two threads!

:cry::cry::cry:

P.S. I take back anything nice I've said about Joe Clemons.[/QUOTE]

It’s leaf who’s motto is NOTHING TO SEE HERE... we made 20 million dollars so we’re innocent.

[QUOTE=tier1dc;14743446]It's not even that it's disproportionate, it's completely improbable.

Joe worked at BGS.
Joe drops off cards in person.
Joe cleans house with Black Labels at astronomical proportions that blow away any other submitter on record.
Joe's Black Labels are entered in Pop report in an unusual sequential method.
Joe clears Black Labels on cards that have never had Black Labels before.
Joe profits.

Where is the disconnect for people to not see how this just doesn't make sense?[/QUOTE]

Makes me want to vomit. All the cards I've graded over the years - all the 9's and min sub 9.5's are just there to offset the high grades this guy is getting. I want a class action to join.

[QUOTE=dizzydolse;14743199]Just went back to the first page and read this thread for the first time. My god, lol. They've been doing this for how long!?! Some shocking similarities between these two threads!

:cry::cry::cry:

P.S. I take back anything nice I've said about Joe Clemons.[/QUOTE]

Joe Clemons is as arrogant as Brent (PWCC). The leaf thread from FCB just adds fuel to how shady he has been and this thread shows it continues to today. Joe says people can talk to him at the National's cause he will have his "Name" tag on. Won't do anybody any good cause a sociopath can lie straight to your face and not think twice about it, so thinking he will give you anything but BS would be fooling yourself. UNREAL!!

Edit. Adding the FCB thread here again that 312 posted
[url]https://www.freedomcardboard.com/forum/showthread.php/119868-First-leaf-metal-on-eBay[/url]

For me it's not even just the black labels it's the insane amount of gold label 10's as well.

His eBay sold inventory which totals over 350 cards but only goes back to last August is comprised of 50% BGS 10's.

Anyone else here get 50% of their cards graded BGS 10 by the hundreds?

He must have an unbelievable eye.

[youtube]5BCwLQcf7qE[/youtube]

I appreciate the effort on drawing the curtain back and I am now sold on the fraud at all levels.

Just like the police officer who once told me it wasn't Identity theft until somebody USED a credit card... in my experience, law enforcement is a joke in these matters.

He's just one of many and will never be prosecuted.

BGS/PSA cannot stop them, and likely wont.

Like many, I will vote by closing my wallet.

The strategy is simple. Stay quiet and do your best to hide behind the PWCC/PSA/Moser robberies and pray law enforcement doesn’t come knocking on your door.

Thankfully, our fight against these criminals is growing daily.

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;14743959]For me it's not even just the black labels it's the insane amount of gold label 10's as well.

His eBay sold inventory which totals over 350 cards but only goes back to last August is comprised of 50% BGS 10's.

Anyone else here get 50% of their cards graded BGS 10 by the hundreds?

He must have an unbelievable eye.

[youtube]5BCwLQcf7qE[/youtube][/QUOTE]

Not just him. Matching his eye talent with the superb eye talent of a Beckett grader to conclusively come to a 10 label should not be understated. It takes two to PARTY.

Some more free time this morning and wanted to take another look at those Acuna Topps now cards that HBMC linke to him the other day.

Appears that in addition to the May 23rd order, Joe also had a really nice June 29, 2018 order.

10607546- 10.0 9.5 10.0 10.0 10.0
10607547- 10.0 9.5 10.0 10.0 10.0
10607548- 10.0 9.5 9.5 9.5 9.5
10607549 - 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0
10607550- 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0
10607551 -10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0


Joe has BGS 10 #10607547 from this submission currently up for sale

[url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/RONALD-ACUNA-2018-Topps-Now-Rookie-Card-RC-125-BGS-10-PRISTINE/123654674665?hash=item1cca6498e9:g:83gAAOSweEFcbF7s[/url]

Now he’s linked to 100% of the 31 Black Labels on this card and further expands on the % above the what all other submissions on this specific card.

For a card/product that other than printer variations, eliminates most of what can differ from one card to the next: circulation, handling,…. this is a perfect example of the “advantage” Joe seems to have over every other paying Beckett customer.

[QUOTE=auburn35;14744062]Some more free time this morning and wanted to take another look at those Acuna Topps now cards that HBMC linke to him the other day.

Appears that in addition to the May 23rd order, Joe also had a really nice June 29, 2018 order.

10607546- 10.0 9.5 10.0 10.0 10.0
10607547- 10.0 9.5 10.0 10.0 10.0
10607548- 10.0 9.5 9.5 9.5 9.5
10607549 - 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0
10607550- 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0
10607551 -10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0


Joe has BGS 10 #10607547 from this submission currently up for sale

[url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/RONALD-ACUNA-2018-Topps-Now-Rookie-Card-RC-125-BGS-10-PRISTINE/123654674665?hash=item1cca6498e9:g:83gAAOSweEFcbF7s[/url]

Now he’s linked to 100% of the 31 Black Labels on this card and further expands on the % above the what all other submissions on this specific card.

For a card/product that other than printer variations, eliminates most of what can differ from one card to the next: circulation, handling,…. this is a perfect example of the “advantage” Joe seems to have over every other paying Beckett customer.[/QUOTE]

Good find. He's got the greatest eyes of all time :flex: