[QUOTE=superdan49;14860612][SIZE="4"]Court Documents for Download[/SIZE]

For those of you interested in reading all the details of the case (not just those related to the BGS 10 Black Label part of it) presented without comment here are the court filings in the case Leaf Trading Cards, LLC v. The Upper Deck Company. Simply click the link and then click the teal-colored download button.


[URL="https://www.scribd.com/document/418721905/177111869704"]https://www.scribd.com/document/418721905/177111869704[/URL]

[URL="https://www.scribd.com/document/418721910/177112133508-1"]https://www.scribd.com/document/418721910/177112133508-1[/URL]


_[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Some interesting stuff in these documents.
Will be really interesting, if/when the Beckett information is presented.

One of my favorite parts of the filing.

64.

The dilution of the athletes’ value is not just limited to quantity of cards
on the market, but also quality. Upper Deck is a producer of top quality, innovative
trading cards and has that reputation. Leaf’s products, on the other hand, are not of
the same quality and Leaf does not enjoy the same reputation

[QUOTE=mattglet;14860695]Probably close to zero... not really relevant to this.[/QUOTE]

I brought it up, because the court documents appear to be asking for records of manufacturer and beckett interactions and collusion. I do not know if it was ever proven that Topps was the ones that sent all those KB's to BGS or if they were submitted by someone else.

Was just an interesting angle that popped into my head.

[QUOTE=auburn35;14861145]Thanks. Some interesting stuff in these documents.
Will be really interesting, if/when the Beckett information is presented.[/QUOTE]

I think we will see a filing by Beckett to quash the subpoenas but who knows.

[QUOTE=pspa123;14861293]I think we will see a filing by Beckett to quash the subpoenas but who knows.[/QUOTE]

The potential quash, might still be interesting. Even more so, if there would be public "reasons" for the quash.

I hope Beckett doesn't get let off the hook. Giving out Black Labels probably actually results in even more money made for the parties involved than with the trimming situation.

I really think block chain technology (bitcoin) will eventually be tied into grading somehow. It would provide an ironclad, untamperable, history of ownership for each card.

[QUOTE=wmelchior628;14861266]I brought it up, because the court documents appear to be asking for records of manufacturer and beckett interactions and collusion. I do not know if it was ever proven that Topps was the ones that sent all those KB's to BGS or if they were submitted by someone else.

Was just an interesting angle that popped into my head.[/QUOTE]

In my research, I have come across several manufactures/customers that appear to receive different grading benefits. Joe/Leaf, seem to be the ones leading the way on the Black Labels.

Topps didn't popup but a former Topps employee did confirm (earlier in this thread) Brentandbecca's claim that Beckett offered guaranteed grades to bulk clients. If you make the connection, there's a better than good chance those Bryant cards were submitted by Topps. The actual grading didn't seem unusual; I think that issue was with the idea of Topps possibly grading their own cards (holding back the best quality) and not releasing (but grading) a few of the parallels.

[QUOTE=auburn35;14861425]In my research, I have come across several manufactures/customers that appear to receive different grading benefits. Joe/Leaf, seem to be the ones leading the way on the Black Labels.

Topps didn't popup but a former Topps employee did confirm (earlier in this thread) Brentandbecca's claim that Beckett offered guaranteed grades to bulk clients. If you make the connection, there's a better than good chance those Bryant cards were submitted by Topps. The actual grading didn't seem unusual; I think that issue was with the idea of Topps possibly grading their own cards (holding back the best quality) and not releasing (but grading) a few of the parallels.[/QUOTE]

It’s crazy that it went on for this long

I'm still trying to fill in data on my 2019 Black Label project and have run into several groupings of Black Labels that I haven't been able to link back to anyone specific. With the recent release of Leaf Rookie Retro; should anyone come across a Black Label card from that release, I would be interested in adding it to my notes.

[QUOTE=auburn35;14874713]I'm still trying to fill in data on my 2019 Black Label project and have run into several groupings of Black Labels that I haven't been able to link back to anyone specific. With the recent release of Leaf Rookie Retro; should anyone come across a Black Label card from that release, I would be interested in adding it to my notes.[/QUOTE]


I found a decent grouping randomly the other day that looks like it could be "Leaf Best Of" related with the multisport and amount of BGS 10's on tough cards:

8907160 2015 Topps Chrome Superfractors
Player Name : Carlos Correa BGS 10
8907161 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Carlos Correa BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907162 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Carlos Correat BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907163 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Mike Trout BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907164 1990-91 Fleer
Player Name : Michael Jordan UER/(Led NBA in scoring 4 years, not 3) BGS 10
8907165 2008-09 Topps Chrome X-Fractors
Player Name : LeBron James BGS 10
8907166 2009-10 Prestige Bonus Shots Black
Player Name : Stephen Curry BGS 10
8907167 1989 Bowman Tiffany
Player Name : Ken Griffey Jr. BGS 10 Black Label
8907168 1989 Donruss Rookies
Player Name : Randy Johnson UER/Card says born in 1964/he was born in 1963 BGS 10
8907160 1989 Score Rookie/Traded
Player Name : Ken Griffey Jr. RC BGS 10
8907170 1989 Score
Player Name : Thurman Thomas RC BGS 10

gabballplayer14, worth taking a look at those for sure.

I'm trying to limit my project to only 2019 graded items.

So far, only looking at grouped Black Labels (a minimum of 2 consecutive black Labels) the combination of Joe/Leaf are responsible for 39~% of all the black labels that Beckett has issued, this year. If we can match up some of the unidentified, grouped black Labels or non grouped black Labels, also to Joe and/or Leaf, this % will only increase.

Seems like something fishy with Leaf and accounts in Texas and Georgia.
New Jersey seems seems to be coming up in some of the other stuff too

[QUOTE=gabballplayer14;14874743]I found a decent grouping randomly the other day that looks like it could be "Leaf Best Of" related with the multisport and amount of BGS 10's on tough cards:

8907160 2015 Topps Chrome Superfractors
Player Name : Carlos Correa BGS 10
8907161 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Carlos Correa BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907162 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Carlos Correat BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907163 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Mike Trout BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907164 1990-91 Fleer
Player Name : Michael Jordan UER/(Led NBA in scoring 4 years, not 3) BGS 10
8907165 2008-09 Topps Chrome X-Fractors
Player Name : LeBron James BGS 10
8907166 2009-10 Prestige Bonus Shots Black
Player Name : Stephen Curry BGS 10
8907167 1989 Bowman Tiffany
Player Name : Ken Griffey Jr. BGS 10 Black Label
8907168 1989 Donruss Rookies
Player Name : Randy Johnson UER/Card says born in 1964/he was born in 1963 BGS 10
8907160 1989 Score Rookie/Traded
Player Name : Ken Griffey Jr. RC BGS 10
8907170 1989 Score
Player Name : Thurman Thomas RC BGS 10[/QUOTE]


A 1989 Tiffany Griffey Black Label 10 is a huge gift to someone. No way in hell a 30 year old card with condition issues should be getting a black label without some shenanigans going on.

[QUOTE=I only pull for;14875211]A 1989 Tiffany Griffey Black Label 10 is a huge gift to someone. No way in hell a 30 year old card with condition issues should be getting a black label without some shenanigans going on.[/QUOTE]

BOWMAN tiffany especially

i would love to see the centering on it

[QUOTE=ThoseBackPages;14875226]BOWMAN tiffany especially

i would love to see the centering on it[/QUOTE]

Exactly, there is no way that card should have 10 centering without someone taking a piece off, or just blatantly over-grading it.

[QUOTE=gabballplayer14;14874743]I found a decent grouping randomly the other day that looks like it could be "Leaf Best Of" related with the multisport and amount of BGS 10's on tough cards:

8907160 2015 Topps Chrome Superfractors
Player Name : Carlos Correa BGS 10
8907161 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Carlos Correa BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907162 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Carlos Correat BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907163 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Mike Trout BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907164 1990-91 Fleer
Player Name : Michael Jordan UER/(Led NBA in scoring 4 years, not 3) BGS 10
8907165 2008-09 Topps Chrome X-Fractors
Player Name : LeBron James BGS 10
8907166 2009-10 Prestige Bonus Shots Black
Player Name : Stephen Curry BGS 10
8907167 1989 Bowman Tiffany
Player Name : Ken Griffey Jr. BGS 10 Black Label
8907168 1989 Donruss Rookies
Player Name : Randy Johnson UER/Card says born in 1964/he was born in 1963 BGS 10
8907160 1989 Score Rookie/Traded
Player Name : Ken Griffey Jr. RC BGS 10
8907170 1989 Score
Player Name : Thurman Thomas RC BGS 10[/QUOTE]



Could these perhaps be pre-existing BGS 10 Pristine gold labels that a collector had reviewed to see if they could earn Black Labels? That was my first thought. Would the ones that remained Gold Label receive new serial numbers?

Incidentally, here is the aforementioned 1989 Bowman Tiffany Griffey BGS 10 Black Label. Sold on 2/14/2015 for $13,433.00 by PWCC:

[URL="https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1198072"]https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1198072[/URL]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/tCfYzJg.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=superdan49;14875402]Could these perhaps be pre-existing BGS 10 Pristine gold labels that a collector had reviewed to see if they could earn Black Labels? That was my first thought. Would the ones that remained Gold Label receive new serial numbers?

Incidentally, here is the aforementioned 1989 Bowman Tiffany Griffey BGS 10 Black Label. [B]Sold on 2/14/2015 for $13,433.00 by PWCC[/B][/QUOTE]

Of course it was.

[QUOTE=superdan49;14875402]Could these perhaps be pre-existing BGS 10 Pristine gold labels that a collector had reviewed to see if they could earn Black Labels? That was my first thought. Would the ones that remained Gold Label receive new serial numbers?

Incidentally, here is the aforementioned 1989 Bowman Tiffany Griffey BGS 10 Black Label. Sold on 2/14/2015 for $13,433.00 by PWCC:

[URL="https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1198072"]https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1198072[/URL]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/tCfYzJg.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

It looks short left to right imo.

It appears to be trimmed on the right edge on the front, it really sticks out on the back scan which would be the left edge from the back.

[QUOTE=superdan49;14875402]Could these perhaps be pre-existing BGS 10 Pristine gold labels that a collector had reviewed to see if they could earn Black Labels? That was my first thought. Would the ones that remained Gold Label receive new serial numbers?

Incidentally, here is the aforementioned 1989 Bowman Tiffany Griffey BGS 10 Black Label. Sold on 2/14/2015 for $13,433.00 by PWCC:

[URL="https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1198072"]https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1198072[/URL]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/tCfYzJg.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]


I was under the impression that cards that were "reviewed" for a BGS 10 or sub-bump showed up in the Pop Report with all 0.0 or not at all, could definitely be wrong though.

looks skinny

agree looks wider top vs. bottom.

[url]http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1902346&postcount=242[/url]

[QUOTE=ThoseBackPages;14875825]looks skinny[/QUOTE]

Bol Bol age 16 skinny L/R.

Terrible.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14876945][url]http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1902346&postcount=242[/url][/QUOTE]

Interesting.

[QUOTE=gabballplayer14;14874743]I found a decent grouping randomly the other day that looks like it could be "Leaf Best Of" related with the multisport and amount of BGS 10's on tough cards:

8907160 2015 Topps Chrome Superfractors
Player Name : Carlos Correa BGS 10
8907161 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Carlos Correa BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907162 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Carlos Correat BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907163 2014 Bowman Platinum Relic Autographs Canary Refractors
Player Name : Mike Trout BGS 9.5 (.5 away from 10)
8907164 1990-91 Fleer
Player Name : Michael Jordan UER/(Led NBA in scoring 4 years, not 3) BGS 10
8907165 2008-09 Topps Chrome X-Fractors
Player Name : LeBron James BGS 10
8907166 2009-10 Prestige Bonus Shots Black
Player Name : Stephen Curry BGS 10
8907167 1989 Bowman Tiffany
Player Name : Ken Griffey Jr. BGS 10 Black Label
8907168 1989 Donruss Rookies
Player Name : Randy Johnson UER/Card says born in 1964/he was born in 1963 BGS 10
8907160 1989 Score Rookie/Traded
Player Name : Ken Griffey Jr. RC BGS 10
8907170 1989 Score
Player Name : Thurman Thomas RC BGS 10[/QUOTE]

In addition to the Griffey Tiffany Black Label that superdan49 linked back to PWCC, the Curry BGS 10 and Thurman Thomas were also PWCC sales.
If this submission was all one individual, two of the three Correa Canary BGS 9.5 autos were sold by eBay member koppcoin.

Shenanigans aside there is a reason You would send high dollar cards to Pwcc and they get more...the payment options they offer. I know I paid more than I prob would have for a couple cards just based on the fact I knew I had 3 months to pay for them and I could send in cards to consign to take off the bill.

That centering is definitely not a 10 though in that Griffey.