[QUOTE=rob024420;14721124]So Brian and I had about a 20 minute conversation and here are the highlights.

He has been alerted to the thread through a previous email/text.

He decided to respond to me since I was the 2nd one bringing it to his attention.

Accused party in this situation is a Contract Employee of Leaf.

Brian will not be getting on this thread to give his opinion or respond to comments.

Brian "1000% vouches for accused as being a stand up individual he would trust his wallet with"

Stated he knows for a fact that the top grader at Beckett makes 6 figures and the accused has turned down several job offers from Beckett to be a grader himself. So he thinks it is non-sense that there would be some type of grading fix in for a monetary exchange.

Stated that the accused "eyes are so good when it comes to cards that he has watched him sort through boxes of commons at the National and pull out 9.5's and 10's consistently". (one of the most interesting comments of our conversation)

He commented briefly on the trimmed card threads stating that he has first hand knowledge that some of the cards listed, in particular one of the McDavid hockey cards, measured properly and he could verify it.

He went on to state that he feels like that all of these threads are starting to feel like a witch hunt but is glad that people are investigating into the card business as that is ultimately a good thing.

Overall it was an interesting conversation to say the least.[/QUOTE]

Unreal response what a joke. Man starting to feel like grading is a scam. What BS

[QUOTE=MIRRABB;14721184]"stand up individual he would trust his wallet with" is much better than "salt of the earth"

love it :coffee:[/QUOTE]

hahahahaha

[QUOTE=JLEICHTER35;14721146]How in the hell do TWO not one, TWO 18 year old cards receive PRISTINE BLACK LABELS!!!!??[/QUOTE]



Those cards were pretty notorious for sticking together too. I should know, I busted two cases of 2001 upper deck golf about 4 years ago.

[QUOTE=Ray27Ray52;14720652]This is getting juicier. Will we reach full juice later.[/QUOTE]You lika da juice yeah?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

That response just makes Leaf's Best Of releases and its Valiant autos that much more suspect.

[QUOTE=mlbfan10;14721199]You lika da juice yeah?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

da juice is good, no?

[QUOTE=lisu;14721057]I'm waiting to see Joe's response before making any sort of judgment here. In the past when Joe worked for BGS, he was always helpful in looking over my cards and advising me if I should grade them or not. And even now, he takes a lot of time to look at cards to see if they are gradeable or not. I agree that the evidence looks very suspicious but I've had a lot of dealings with Joe in the past.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure there’s a very good explanation for why he won his own auctions.

This is an amazing read and again incredible work by the OP and all others involved!

One thing I've always thought would maybe help, or change overall grading although it may not be the fastest or most cost efficient ( like Beckett is either anyways) but why not have a grader be responsible for one criteria - Grader A is corners, Grader B is edges and so forth....and those graders only grade what they are responsible for and have no knowledge of what the other graders gave for their own criteria, then the total grade is established and slabbed?

Just a thought but either way i have my popcorn as well for the rest!

quote: Stated that the accused "eyes are so good when it comes to cards that he has watched him sort through boxes of commons at the National and pull out 9.5's and 10's consistently". (one of the most interesting comments of our conversation)

again...spotting 9.5s i feel like can be done by quite a few people on this forum that grade cards often...the diff between a 9.5 which basically seems like default grade at this point for modern cards and a BL10 is a massive gap!!

ive never graded a card in my life and just based on what i know from Blowout i feel like i could pick out some 9.5s...lol

ridiculous

there are like 10 subs now or whatever shown that account for lets say 100 cards...and like 90 of them were given a Black Label...that is not "good eyes"...i dont care what company you run or that you would give your wallet to the guy

[QUOTE=superdan49;14720816][SIZE="4"]Info on Beckett's Graders[/SIZE]

One of the things I've been doing since I opened the [email]superdan49@protonmail.com[/email] anonymous e-mail tip-line is cultivating sources. Just got this from a very trusted source:

Beckett divides their graders into junior and senior graders. "There is no way a junior grader can give those results out." Therefore the culprit working with Joe Clemons is likely one of "the senior graders that have been there for awhile."


Beckett: Who graded these cards? Which of your senior graders is involved here?[/QUOTE]

This is quite interesting... so if my stuff gets assigned to a junior grader I have not shot at a 10, even on a deserving card? Hummm... guess this speaks volumes to "my grader must have been having a bad day"/"I got the grader of death"... no, you just got a junior grader....

[QUOTE=Cavaliercards;14721036]It is fraud and they do actually care.[/QUOTE]

I would hope so, BUT... there is more forgery now than Operation bullpen. Many Places like Coaches corner have been pawning off forgeries for over a decade. Obvious bad forgeries, yet they still remain in business making a fortune.

[QUOTE=MIRRABB;14721184]"stand up individual he would trust his wallet with" is much better than "salt of the earth"

love it :coffee:[/QUOTE]

You would think people would know by now that when they say things like that it is going to become a catch phrase on here until the end of time.

I am giving color to my conversation with Rob in this single post... as it doesn't fully paint our discussion....

I DO believe that investigating and pointing out hobby wrong doing is a good thing. I also believe that the current process is becoming a little crazy....
It is resembling a victim of violent crime who looks in the shadows with some level or paranoia...

I am 100% sure than PSA's top grader makes $200K plus and I believe BGS top guy makes six figures as well... I only mentioned this to show how silly some who think these guys make peanuts are...

With respect to Joe, he does work for us on a contract basis. I cannot speak to these grading submissions as I have no first hand knowledge. But, I have seen him dig through boxes at shows looking for cherry cards. I have shown him cards before when I wasnt sure a card would meet our minimum grade for a buyback product. His eye is exceptional and I would 1000% guarantee BGS or PSA would hire him in 10 seconds. [B]BUT AGAIN, I CANNOT SPEAK TO OR ADD COLOR TO HIS BUYING/SELLING/GRADING OF CARDS.[/B] I do however have a hard time believing he would ever alter a card and I do not believe he would ever bribe someone (nor do I believe anyone at PSA or BGS would accept a bribe - but again, this is merely my opinion.)

I do not believe the posts in threads showing submission results are representative of complete orders.... Additionally, I believe black labels all show up together serial number wise as I believe those labels are printed separately from other colors/grades...

With respect to alleged trimmers, I believe many of these cards measure correctly.... The cards in many cases are NOT short. I do not know what that means or how to explain it, but I do not believe ANY of the critics here could pick out the cards under discussion as being trimmed (without a comparison of exact before picture) as they measure correctly.

I AM IN NO WAY DEFENDING ANY BEHAVIOR IN THE BUSINESS THAT IS LESS THAN HONEST. I ALSO AM NOT ENDORSING A LYNCH MOB MENTALITY.

I am merely stating that for this effort to "clean up the business" to work, it must be clean, clear and focused on legitimate claims. Not throwing stuff against a wall to see if it sticks.

BG

p.s.- Leaf grades 1000's of cards for our buyback products with a minimum grade of 9. Leaf grades 1000's of cards a year for Valiant BB and FB with a minimum grade of 9.5. When we have received black labels (which is more common on Valiant than stuff we bought off ebay/shows), if we get multiple black labels the serial numbers are usually sequential.

p.s. #2- It was great speaking to Rob... I always enjoy talking about our hobby.... I do wish we celebrated the positives as zealously as we pound the negatives. But, one can hope right?

BNC, SSI, BGS, PSA, PWCC

FBI

My head is going to explode.

I saw percentages of around 1-2% for Black Labels on 2018 Chrome, which seems to be an 'easy' target.

There are 141 cards in the OP currently with 99 of them being black labels. That's just a touch over 70%.

[QUOTE=LEAF;14721249]

I DO believe that investigating and pointing out hobby wrong doing is a good thing. I also believe that the current process is becoming a little crazy....
It is resembling a victim of violent crime who looks in the shadows with some level or paranoia...
[/QUOTE]

What part of the investigations going on strike you as a witch hunt?

Investigating hundreds and hundreds of high dollar cards that have clearly been trimmed and resold?

Investigating corruption with the grading process where one ex-employee seems to be getting grades at a rate 40-50 times better than the average collector?

The notion that graders make a lot of money and therefore can't possibly be corrupt is laughable. Have you seen the amount of money being discussed here? Just because someone makes six figures means they wouldn't be tempted to make a lot more? I don't believe anyone has any solid proof yet, but there is plenty worth discussing and digging into deeper.

My response to the accusations levied against me.........
 

Rather than have this on page 9 of the other thread, I wanted it front and center:

Ok boys, here is my very last response to these accusations and then I’m moving on. I will not read these threads, reply to these threads, or anything else. What I’m telling you below is the 100% truth in every way. You can choose to believe it or not. Please know that if you’re responding to these threads I will not see it so there’s no use asking me anything else unless you do it over PM. Here you go:

The true stuff from the accusers:

Yes, I do know graders at Beckett and I like every single one of them. I don’t know everybody there because they’ve hired dozens of new people since I left but several of their graders have been there for 20 years so they were there when I arrived and are still there today.

Yes, I drop off my stuff in person. However, that stuff is NOT handed to a grader. It’s given to a sales/data entry person so my card is charged.

Yes, I’ve gotten a good amount of black labels in the past. I’m also submitting the easiest stuff on the planet to get good grades on. You will not see 1993 SP, National Treasures, Panini Noir, or any other condition sensitive card in black label on my account. You will see a ton of Chrome Update, Bowman Chrome, Topps Update, Prizm basketball, etc. I spend hours on top of hours going through 10’s of thousands of cards to submit the nicest ones.

Yes, I did have a hobby relationship with FCCG. I was their BGS account manager up until the time I left. I did make a post on here 9 years ago on behalf of them to buy cards but I simply copy and pasted an email from them because they didn’t have an account on Blowout (I have no idea whether they opened one after that). After re-reading the post I definitely should have changed the wording to not say “I” so for that I apologize. I was simply doing them a favor. I did, however, forward their info to other BGS customers looking to sell inventory because FCCG advertised on Beckett looking to buy collections. If I knew somebody was looking for someone trustworthy to sell to I would send them to FCCG because I did, and still do, trust them. I will go to my grave believing that if the guys at FCCG ended up with bad stuff it was an accident. You also have to understand that when I was their grading rep BGS offered minimum grade options so they had full orders that were all 10’s, others that were all 9.5’s, and so on. So again, yes, I helped FCCG find things to buy. Yes, I was their BGS rep. No, I did not receive any money from them outside of my compensation from Beckett.

Yes, I work at Leaf and am proud to do so. Yes, I sometimes buy Leaf product if there is any leftover, including 20 cases of Metal in 2013. I listed my cards on release date as instructed when I bought the cases. I buy our products because our content is great and the cards generally grade very well. However, I’ve been buying and selling cards since 1990 and have been on eBay since 1999 so I do my own thing as well.

No, I do not alter cards. That doesn’t seem to be an accusation but it was brought up so I just want to clarify.

Truths from me:

No, I do not have an inside man at BGS. Their system is set up so that you wouldn’t need 1 inside man, you would need 4-5. You would need all of the following people will to sacrifice their jobs to give you grades: a data entry person to accept the order, a grader to give you grades, a data entry person to enter your grades without bringing it to anybody’s attention, a person to slab the cards without saying anything, and a person to ship the cards without saying anything. A minimum of 5 people will deal with an order from the time it was received to the time it leaves. That’s why I’ve said for years, far before this controversy, that having an inside man is impossible. I just don’t see how it can be done. [B] I will say unequivocally, on the record, and under oath if necessary, I DO NOT HAVE ANYBODY AT BGS GIVING ME GRADES. I don’t think it’s impossible to see some lawsuits coming out of all of this and if asked to give testimony I will absolutely say under oath that nobody at BGS is giving me grades. [/B] BGS absolutely logs who grades which order so there would be no way for a grader to grade my order without everybody in the department being able to see that they had graded it.

I was not a grader while at BGS but I’ve inspected 10’s of thousands of cards for BGS customers when they would ask me at the show booth whether or not they should get a card graded. However, I think it is important to point out that I have never been the final say on a BGS card.

The reason it looks like I’m getting X number of black labels “in a row” is because in every list of grades I’ve ever received BGS has always grouped black labels together. They do this because that’s the way the grades are fed into their label matrix for printing. Black labels are printed together, gold labels together, silver labels together, etc.

I have been up front for years about my having been a BGS employee. I’ve made more posts than I care to count trying to explain the inner workings of grading companies so people can be more confident with the process rather than relying on speculation. I thought my having been an employee would lead to being able to provide valuable information.

Contrary to popular belief, I get hundreds of non-10’s in my orders. The people doing the research have no doubt seen those orders but don’t post them because it’s not convenient for their accusations. They have chosen to take only the black labels and/or 10’s from these orders to show. I have offered to send pictures of the cards I haven’t listed yet but that wasn’t good enough. Instead I was asked to make a video of myself logging into my account and going through each order individually so everybody can see every card I’ve ever graded. I simply will not do that. Other things I won’t film myself doing: logging into my bank accounts, logging into my health care accounts, logging into my retirement accounts, showering.

I’ve said multiple times that I submit my very best, cleanest stuff in smaller batches and pay for faster turnaround times. I submit in smaller batches in hopes of doing better on grades. Perhaps it’s just a psychological thing but I feel like my chances of going 3/3, 8/10, 10/12, etc. are better than going, say, 80 for 100. Again, I have no proof but I like my chances of breaking things into smaller batches than 1 big one. So far I’ve done well that way. However, I do big orders also. If I don’t think a card is 10 quality or it’s a really cheap card then I put it in a bigger batch and often do no sub-grades to save time and money. I also occasionally submit with friends if I don’t have enough cards to get a discount so while not all of the cards I’ve graded are on my BGS account they are sold on my eBay account. I also occasionally do minimum grade orders but I have to pay even if the card doesn’t get slabbed so I try not to do many. I will fully admit that I went 3/3 on the one order. It’s possible the other orders had more cards but I can’t say for sure.

I list all of my cards on my own account. I have sent a handful of cards to PWCC and maybe a few hundred to Probstein but I think it’s been 2 years or more since I’ve done that. My black labels, 10’s, 9.5’s, and raw go on my own account. I advertise the ungraded stuff on my account as NM or better so as not to make people think the cards are grade worthy. There are no doubt some 9.5’s in my raw stuff but I still describe them as NM or better.

Kyaa wanted to submit through me in March when I was considering doing a BGS group sub. I chose not to do the group sub and now this. I just thought it was fair to let you guys know that 2 months ago he considered me trustworthy enough to grade with despite already knowing the kind of grades I get. He even mentioned in his PM’s how well I seem to do. Since I didn’t choose to do the group sub and he has no use for me anymore he’s decided to attack me instead.

Things I am willing to do:

If anybody would like to contact people that have bought black label cards from me and ask them if they believe the card is over graded then they can send it to me. I won’t blindly buy everything back but if they can show me a noticeable flaw that BGS missed then I will absolutely buy it back.

I am going to spend the next couple of weeks listing hundreds of non-10’s, raw cards, lots etc. so everybody can see that I do, in fact, not get all 10’s and black labels. I’ve offered to provide pictures of these cards but since that wasn’t good enough I’ll list them on my account for all the world to see. The listings will start this weekend. I have an additional 300 cards at PSA, also stuff I do not feel was 10 worthy, that I hope to have back in the next 6 weeks or so and you will see those on my account as well.

I have offered, and will continue to offer, to sit down with anybody that has any questions for me in person at the National. I will bring any black labels I still have to the show with me and we can all review them together. I have nothing to hide so sitting down with everybody in person is no problem for me at all. I will wear a nametag at the show so I am easy to find.

I think that covers everything. I apologize if I left anything out. I can tell you that I am not going away. I will be on here buying and selling. I will be on eBay, I will be at shows, I will be submitting cards for grading. I will be doing what I have always done. I expect/hope to have years of 9.5’s, 10’s, black labels, PSA graded stuff, raw cards, etc. ahead of me. Some of you will not like that and that’s fine. I suspect most of you have your mind made up and that’s also fine.

Again, this is my final statement on the matter. If you post in this thread asking me questions, calling me out, or anything else you will not get a response. I will not read this thread or any other thread pertaining to me. There is simply no reason. There are no repercussions for people making false accusations, only the accused. For that reason I’m done with these threads after this.

1st!!!

[QUOTE=jstasyk1121;14721231]quote: Stated that the accused "eyes are so good when it comes to cards that he has watched him sort through boxes of commons at the National and pull out 9.5's and 10's consistently". (one of the most interesting comments of our conversation)

again...spotting 9.5s i feel like can be done by quite a few people on this forum that grade cards often...the diff between a 9.5 which basically seems like default grade at this point for modern cards and a BL10 is a massive gap!!

ive never graded a card in my life and just based on what i know from Blowout i feel like i could pick out some 9.5s...lol

ridiculous

[/QUOTE]

If the difference between a BL10 and 9.5 was "massive" that would actual help his cause. You can be trained to spot them. I think it is the opposite, since subs are mostly random then the difference between a 9.5, 10, and BL10 is just arbitrary. You could take 50 black label 10s and crack them and probably get a spread of 9.5s, 10, and BL10s back.

[QUOTE=WJCIII;14721271]Rather than have this on page 9 of the other thread, I wanted it front and center:

Ok boys, here is my very last response to these accusations and then I’m moving on. I will not read these threads, reply to these threads, or anything else. What I’m telling you below is the 100% truth in every way. You can choose to believe it or not. Please know that if you’re responding to these threads I will not see it so there’s no use asking me anything else unless you do it over PM. Here you go:

The true stuff from the accusers:

Yes, I do know graders at Beckett and I like every single one of them. I don’t know everybody there because they’ve hired dozens of new people since I left but several of their graders have been there for 20 years so they were there when I arrived and are still there today.

Yes, I drop off my stuff in person. However, that stuff is NOT handed to a grader. It’s given to a sales/data entry person so my card is charged.

Yes, I’ve gotten a good amount of black labels in the past. I’m also submitting the easiest stuff on the planet to get good grades on. You will not see 1993 SP, National Treasures, Panini Noir, or any other condition sensitive card in black label on my account. You will see a ton of Chrome Update, Bowman Chrome, Topps Update, Prizm basketball, etc. I spend hours on top of hours going through 10’s of thousands of cards to submit the nicest ones.

Yes, I did have a hobby relationship with FCCG. I was their BGS account manager up until the time I left. I did make a post on here 9 years ago on behalf of them to buy cards but I simply copy and pasted an email from them because they didn’t have an account on Blowout (I have no idea whether they opened one after that). After re-reading the post I definitely should have changed the wording to not say “I” so for that I apologize. I was simply doing them a favor. I did, however, forward their info to other BGS customers looking to sell inventory because FCCG advertised on Beckett looking to buy collections. If I knew somebody was looking for someone trustworthy to sell to I would send them to FCCG because I did, and still do, trust them. I will go to my grave believing that if the guys at FCCG ended up with bad stuff it was an accident. You also have to understand that when I was their grading rep BGS offered minimum grade options so they had full orders that were all 10’s, others that were all 9.5’s, and so on. So again, yes, I helped FCCG find things to buy. Yes, I was their BGS rep. No, I did not receive any money from them outside of my compensation from Beckett.

Yes, I work at Leaf and am proud to do so. Yes, I sometimes buy Leaf product if there is any leftover, including 20 cases of Metal in 2013. I listed my cards on release date as instructed when I bought the cases. I buy our products because our content is great and the cards generally grade very well. However, I’ve been buying and selling cards since 1990 and have been on eBay since 1999 so I do my own thing as well.

No, I do not alter cards. That doesn’t seem to be an accusation but it was brought up so I just want to clarify.

Truths from me:

No, I do not have an inside man at BGS. Their system is set up so that you wouldn’t need 1 inside man, you would need 4-5. You would need all of the following people will to sacrifice their jobs to give you grades: a data entry person to accept the order, a grader to give you grades, a data entry person to enter your grades without bringing it to anybody’s attention, a person to slab the cards without saying anything, and a person to ship the cards without saying anything. A minimum of 5 people will deal with an order from the time it was received to the time it leaves. That’s why I’ve said for years, far before this controversy, that having an inside man is impossible. I just don’t see how it can be done. [B] I will say unequivocally, on the record, and under oath if necessary, I DO NOT HAVE ANYBODY AT BGS GIVING ME GRADES. I don’t think it’s impossible to see some lawsuits coming out of all of this and if asked to give testimony I will absolutely say under oath that nobody at BGS is giving me grades. [/B] BGS absolutely logs who grades which order so there would be no way for a grader to grade my order without everybody in the department being able to see that they had graded it.

I was not a grader while at BGS but I’ve inspected 10’s of thousands of cards for BGS customers when they would ask me at the show booth whether or not they should get a card graded. However, I think it is important to point out that I have never been the final say on a BGS card.

The reason it looks like I’m getting X number of black labels “in a row” is because in every list of grades I’ve ever received BGS has always grouped black labels together. They do this because that’s the way the grades are fed into their label matrix for printing. Black labels are printed together, gold labels together, silver labels together, etc.

I have been up front for years about my having been a BGS employee. I’ve made more posts than I care to count trying to explain the inner workings of grading companies so people can be more confident with the process rather than relying on speculation. I thought my having been an employee would lead to being able to provide valuable information.

Contrary to popular belief, I get hundreds of non-10’s in my orders. The people doing the research have no doubt seen those orders but don’t post them because it’s not convenient for their accusations. They have chosen to take only the black labels and/or 10’s from these orders to show. I have offered to send pictures of the cards I haven’t listed yet but that wasn’t good enough. Instead I was asked to make a video of myself logging into my account and going through each order individually so everybody can see every card I’ve ever graded. I simply will not do that. Other things I won’t film myself doing: logging into my bank accounts, logging into my health care accounts, logging into my retirement accounts, showering.

I’ve said multiple times that I submit my very best, cleanest stuff in smaller batches and pay for faster turnaround times. I submit in smaller batches in hopes of doing better on grades. Perhaps it’s just a psychological thing but I feel like my chances of going 3/3, 8/10, 10/12, etc. are better than going, say, 80 for 100. Again, I have no proof but I like my chances of breaking things into smaller batches than 1 big one. So far I’ve done well that way. However, I do big orders also. If I don’t think a card is 10 quality or it’s a really cheap card then I put it in a bigger batch and often do no sub-grades to save time and money. I also occasionally submit with friends if I don’t have enough cards to get a discount so while not all of the cards I’ve graded are on my BGS account they are sold on my eBay account. I also occasionally do minimum grade orders but I have to pay even if the card doesn’t get slabbed so I try not to do many. I will fully admit that I went 3/3 on the one order. It’s possible the other orders had more cards but I can’t say for sure.

I list all of my cards on my own account. I have sent a handful of cards to PWCC and maybe a few hundred to Probstein but I think it’s been 2 years or more since I’ve done that. My black labels, 10’s, 9.5’s, and raw go on my own account. I advertise the ungraded stuff on my account as NM or better so as not to make people think the cards are grade worthy. There are no doubt some 9.5’s in my raw stuff but I still describe them as NM or better.

Kyaa wanted to submit through me in March when I was considering doing a BGS group sub. I chose not to do the group sub and now this. I just thought it was fair to let you guys know that 2 months ago he considered me trustworthy enough to grade with despite already knowing the kind of grades I get. He even mentioned in his PM’s how well I seem to do. Since I didn’t choose to do the group sub and he has no use for me anymore he’s decided to attack me instead.

Things I am willing to do:

If anybody would like to contact people that have bought black label cards from me and ask them if they believe the card is over graded then they can send it to me. I won’t blindly buy everything back but if they can show me a noticeable flaw that BGS missed then I will absolutely buy it back.

I am going to spend the next couple of weeks listing hundreds of non-10’s, raw cards, lots etc. so everybody can see that I do, in fact, not get all 10’s and black labels. I’ve offered to provide pictures of these cards but since that wasn’t good enough I’ll list them on my account for all the world to see. The listings will start this weekend. I have an additional 300 cards at PSA, also stuff I do not feel was 10 worthy, that I hope to have back in the next 6 weeks or so and you will see those on my account as well.

I have offered, and will continue to offer, to sit down with anybody that has any questions for me in person at the National. I will bring any black labels I still have to the show with me and we can all review them together. I have nothing to hide so sitting down with everybody in person is no problem for me at all. I will wear a nametag at the show so I am easy to find.

I think that covers everything. I apologize if I left anything out. I can tell you that I am not going away. I will be on here buying and selling. I will be on eBay, I will be at shows, I will be submitting cards for grading. I will be doing what I have always done. I expect/hope to have years of 9.5’s, 10’s, black labels, PSA graded stuff, raw cards, etc. ahead of me. Some of you will not like that and that’s fine. I suspect most of you have your mind made up and that’s also fine.

Again, this is my final statement on the matter. If you post in this thread asking me questions, calling me out, or anything else you will not get a response. I will not read this thread or any other thread pertaining to me. There is simply no reason. There are no repercussions for people making false accusations, only the accused. For that reason I’m done with these threads after this.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Davis;14721272]1st!!![/QUOTE]

If you are going to be first you have to quote...

[QUOTE=Davis;14721272]1st!!![/QUOTE]

damn you!

[QUOTE=LEAF;14721249]I am giving color to my conversation with Rob in this single post... as it doesn't fully paint our discussion....

I DO believe that investigating and pointing out hobby wrong doing is a good thing. I also believe that the current process is becoming a little crazy....
It is resembling a victim of violent crime who looks in the shadows with some level or paranoia...

I am 100% sure than PSA's top grader makes $200K plus and I believe BGS top guy makes six figures as well... I only mentioned this to show how silly some who think these guys make peanuts are...

With respect to Joe, he does work for us on a contract basis. I cannot speak to these grading submissions as I have no first hand knowledge. But, I have seen him dig through boxes at shows looking for cherry cards. I have shown him cards before when I wasnt sure a card would meet our minimum grade for a buyback product. His eye is exceptional and I would 1000% guarantee BGS or PSA would hire him in 10 seconds. [B]BUT AGAIN, I CANNOT SPEAK TO OR ADD COLOR TO HIS BUYING/SELLING/GRADING OF CARDS.[/B] I do however have a hard time believing he would ever alter a card and I do not believe he would ever bribe someone (nor do I believe anyone at PSA or BGS would accept a bribe - but again, this is merely my opinion.)

[B]I do not believe the posts in threads showing submission results are representative of complete orders.... Additionally, I believe black labels all show up together serial number wise as I believe those labels are printed separately from other colors/grades...[/B]

With respect to alleged trimmers, I believe many of these cards measure correctly.... The cards in many cases are NOT short. I do not know what that means or how to explain it, but I do not believe ANY of the critics here could pick out the cards under discussion as being trimmed (without a comparison of exact before picture) as they measure correctly.

I AM IN NO WAY DEFENDING ANY BEHAVIOR IN THE BUSINESS THAT IS LESS THAN HONEST. I ALSO AM NOT ENDORSING A LYNCH MOB MENTALITY.

I am merely stating that for this effort to "clean up the business" to work, it must be clean, clear and focused on legitimate claims. Not throwing stuff against a wall to see if it sticks.

BG

p.s.- Leaf grades 1000's of cards for our buyback products with a minimum grade of 9. Leaf grades 1000's of cards a year for Valiant BB and FB with a minimum grade of 9.5. When we have received black labels (which is more common on Valiant than stuff we bought off ebay/shows), if we get multiple black labels the serial numbers are usually sequential.

p.s. #2- It was great speaking to Rob... I always enjoy talking about our hobby.... I do wish we celebrated the positives as zealously as we pound the negatives. But, one can hope right?[/QUOTE]

BG,

Trimming is in another thread. Joe has not been accused of trimming, so kee that separate. You are completely wrong about black labels all being grouped together. That is not true, and I am surprised with all of your expertise you thought that. Your boy Joe is in a lot of trouble. He's a nice guy. He's a family guy. He's a church guy (he invited me to his church the next time I'm in The Colony, TX). But he has also obtained hundreds of thousand of dollars (millions, more likely) by cheating the system and doing insider trading. It would be best for your business if you would recognize this quickly and distance yourself from him as much as possible.

Only thing I can help contribute to this thread... I believe BG is right by saying the serial numbers go in order for black labels..

A simple look on eBay showed that a 2018 leaf valiant black label of Seth beer as serial # 0011107743 and a 2018 lead valiant black label of Jameson Hannah (not even remotely close of card #’s in the set) as 07728 (15 number difference).

I find it odd that Beckett does this though.

One thing that has not been mentioned that should warrant some consideration are the cards Joe has been getting black labels on (I think that is the main point of contention here?). I don't know anything about Leaf cards so my comments is about the other cards with one of the frequent brand popping up on OP's list: 2018 Topps Chrome Update. The cards he's getting the black labels are mostly base cards correct? Is it not possible that Joe started with a lot of 100 TCU of a particular player, and with his expert trained grading eye (it's been mentioned that he worked for Beckett so I assume his grading eye is superior to all of the people here just from the volume of cards he has looked at) whittled down that list of 100 TCU stack down to say 30 that he thinks will gem mint or pristine. He then submits that stack for grading. Now I am not sure how the step by step grading process works at Beckett...from the point of physically looking/assigning a grade to a card...and then have the label printed...and then having the card encased with the label. Is it not possible that out of that stack of 30 cards he sent (don't forget he started with 100, so there's 70 rejects sitting ungraded in a box somewhere), 25 end up getting 9.5s, 3 end up getting 10s but not black label and 2 does get black label. Then, labels are printed for the 9.5s first...sequentially numbered sequence...and then the 10s are printed...thus the sequential order for that small lot as evidenced by the below block presented by OP.

11143125 2018 Topps Chrome Update Ronald Acuna BGS 10
11143126 2018 Topps Chrome Update Ronald Acuna BGS 10
11143127 2018 Topps Chrome Update Ronald Acuna BGS 10
11143128 2018 Topps Chrome Update Ronald Acuna BGS 10
11143129 2018 Topps Chrome Update Ronald Acuna BGS 10
11143130 2018 Topps Chrome Update Ronald Acuna BGS 10

Is it not possible that Joe just understands what grades well better than 100% of everyone here? It would be interesting to see amongst everyone here in the forum, how many of you submits on the average, on your own and not as a manager of a submission group, say a 1000 cards a year? I think if you look at 1000 cards a year, over many years, the eye would then become more trained in terms of what may get gem mint and pristine and what may not. I myself have submitted over 5000 cards in the past 17 years to both BGS and PSA. To this day, I am still learning what a gem mint card look like, let alone a pristine. Anyone that dismisses someone's grading eye truly has never looked at thousands of cards before. When I now look at the very first batch of cards (1990 Sammy Sosas) that was my first submission to PSA in 2002 (bulk of which came back as 8s), I laugh at myself for wasting so much money. I can see quite easily now, with my 2019 eye (which has now seen reviewed over 15,000+ cards with 5000 submitted in 17+ years) that I made many grading assumptions and "hope this gets a 10" errors. If a person has limited experience pre-screening a card, then it's more likely that a gem mint card won't happen, let alone a pristine card. I will probably get crucify by the mob here. I think people get jealous when they see others get a black label (because that ultimately translate into dollars in the pocket) and their own submission would be lucky enough to get a 9.5 OR A regular 10.

On OP's list, I would be curious to see the graded TCU cards before and after the 10s that he got. If those cards could be verify as Joe's, I imagine there should be some 9.5s as well? I can't speak about the 22 consecutive black labels on the 2018 Leaf Metal cards as I've never bought a Leaf Metal card (I did see that none of them are autos so those cards were not handled by the players during a signing process which would reduce the chance of a pristine). But I would think it is possible if the set as a whole were manufactured and cut very well and handled very well and distributed in a manner that involved minimal human handling, that getting a black label is not out of the question. Those of you that think grading is a scam, great...save your money from buying graded cards and ignore graded card sales so you don't get upset that your raw card is being "de-valued" by a graded sale since grading is a scam after all...or save your money from submitting cards to Beckett trying to get a black label and double down with PSA. Those that happen to make money selling BGS graded cards will be fine with less competition I'm sure. Anyways, back to reading about the witch hunt.

[QUOTE=LVDan;14721205]da juice is good, no?[/QUOTE]

Hey, Marco! He like a da juice!