[QUOTE=Astros19;14736323]Speaking just to comments about the member being suspended.
Anyone who has had any interaction with him will tell you he's a troll, plain and simple.
He has, in my opinion, a history here of arguing for nothing but the sake of arguing.
Whether it was right or wrong to suspend him can be debated, I'm just adding my 2 cents concerning his posting history.
Sometimes you get what you ask for.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

I have less of a problem with him being suspended than I have with his posts being deleted. He made several points that were valid, in my opinion, no matter what his intentions were.

Nobody else has had their posts deleted. Not even "Fudd". Go to the early pages of this thread and read what that guy contributed. Nothing but incendiary bomb-throwing, and it looks like it got him banned. But his posts remain.

[QUOTE=Astros19;14736329]The one thing that has bothered me more than anything else in this entire saga is the fact that BGS let a former employer continue to do business with them, especially given the nature of said business.
For a company as big as they are it baffles me knowing they didn't have rules against it. If for no other reason than to eliminate something exactly like what we're witnessing from happening.
I understand any exemployee could easily find someone to sub for them, but to have an exemployee hand delivering cards to be graded in the first place is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.
Whether shenanigans were happening or not, BGS's own stupidity has ended up biting them in the ass.
Deservedly so I might add.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

We reach common ground here. There's clearly an appearance of impropriety. Unlike many here, I will not convict based upon that, but it could have been--and should have been--avoided.

[QUOTE=brewtown107;14736344]I have less of a problem with him being suspended than I have with his posts being deleted. He made several points that were valid, in my opinion, no matter what his intentions were.



Nobody else has had their posts deleted. Not even "Fudd". Go to the early pages of this thread and read what that guy contributed. Nothing but incendiary bomb-throwing, and it looks like it got him banned. But his posts remain.[/QUOTE]There's been a couple of posters whom I felt were out of line with their comments. But I digress, I don't have the will to enter into that arena.

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Does anyone think that it would be beneficial to the hobby as a whole for the graded card to have the name of the professional grader on it? Example, on the back of a BGS label there is a ton of space, why not have "Joe Blow, professional grader, certifies this card ___". That way at least when horribly chipped BGS 10's appear, the actual person grading the card could take some heat instead of just the faceless company.

[QUOTE=gabballplayer14;14736104]You’re right.

There will be a separate thread with evidence in due time. Posting objective questions and statements here for people to ponder is not the correct place.

Thanks for pushing me to do the right thing.

As for me being on my own limb, dont be so sure of yourself. I’m just the one who is impulsive, doesn’t have an affiliation with Jewcer, and wanted to get the discussion going.[/QUOTE]
Looks like it’s time to put up or shut up. If you have the evidence, share it.

[QUOTE=MF514235;14736301]You guys, this is the best, most definitive way to conclusively say something fraudulent is going on. We need to build a database - even if its only chrome graded cards. If we got a large enough sample size, there would be no denying something is wrong. All the naysayers, defenders, and skeptics (at least the ones that understand a shred of math) would have no choice but to admit it.

I hardly grade any cards. I've taken graduate level stats classes, but I have no time to throw this together - and by the looks of the some of the other analysis done in other threads, I'm nowhere near as smart as some of the guys on this board.

But I can't stress this enough. With the right data, maybe we see Joe is 3 standard deviations away and legit has the best eyes in the world. Or maybe we see its 5 or 6 and clearly something nefarious is at work. I doubt our pieced together data set would be admissible in a court of law, but it could be enough for law enforcement to actually start investigating. Numbers do not lie.

I hope this all comes to a conclusion. I hate to see honest folks scammed. I could even see why the potential perpetrators continue to do this. Maybe they still need to provide for their families. They probably have kids and mortgages. But dishonesty and crime are cheap and lazy. It shouldn't be rewarded.

End of rant. Long-time lurker, infrequent poster. I love numbers and the power they hold - the truth is out there. I feel like the BO "mob" is up for the challenge.

-Matt[/QUOTE]

For those that want to use this as proof need to better understand standard deviations and six sigma. Having greater deviations here doesn’t prove Joe of wrongdoing. It only proves that there is a process which is out of control - which is the grading process.

Unless I am wrong, that is something all of us already agree on, correct?

But go ahead and spend the time putting that together...in my opinion it will get us no closer to any truth.

[QUOTE=Cubsfanp;14736404]For those that want to use this as proof need to better understand standard deviations and six sigma. Having greater deviations here doesn’t prove Joe of wrongdoing. It only proves that there is a process which is out of control - which is the grading process.

Unless I am wrong, that is something all of us already agree on, correct?

But go ahead and spend the time putting that together...in my opinion it will get us no closer to any truth.[/QUOTE]
While I don't think Joe's results are 100% legitimate, I agree with this. The reason why 312, corndog, and Dan have been so successful is that they are organized in their attack, and they present their information elegantly enough that anybody can pick up a thread at any point and understand what is going on. This thread is not that. It is a mess.

The definitive proof that some people need here is not coming. There is no equivalent of a before and after comparison of the 1952 Mantle. Your average person doesn't follow "complicated" math in long winded posts. They're not going to click on countless eBay links to follow a trail. They need pictures, and short posts that are easy to understand.

So my advice to those who are passionate enough about this, is to quit the amateur hour stuff and organize your efforts off the message board. When you have something, post it up.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14736414]While I don't think Joe's results are 100% legitimate, I agree with this. The reason why 312, corndog, and Dan have been so successful is that they are organized in their attack, and they present their information elegantly enough that anybody can pick up a thread at any point and understand what is going on. This thread is not that. It is a mess.

The definitive proof that some people need here is not coming. There is no equivalent of a before and after comparison of the 1952 Mantle. Your average person doesn't follow "complicated" math in long winded posts. They're not going to click on countless eBay links to follow a trail. They need pictures, and short posts that are easy to understand.

So my advice to those who are passionate enough about this, is to quit the amateur hour stuff and organize your efforts off the message board. When you have something, post it up.[/QUOTE]

One of the best posts in this entire thread, Khal.

As someone who has never graded but was recently contemplating it, this and a few of the other "grading scandal" threads were of immense interest to me from the beginning.

This one especially has spiraled so far away from usefulness; it desperately needs to get back on track and focus.

Here is why this thread was doomed from the beginning.

[QUOTE=kyaa;14720448]The purpose of this thread is to expose what I believe to be ongoing illegitimate grading at Beckett Grading Services. You may have seen posts in other threads about how Joe Clemons (WJCIII on this forum), a former BGS employee, accounts for about 25 percent of all the BGS 10 Black Label sales on eBay (and a significant chunk of BGS 10s as well). [/QUOTE]

Fair enough right? Purpose = expose illegitimate grading. I will argue this has already been shown to be the case many times over. Grading is illegitimate. /thread and mission accomplished, right?

[QUOTE=kyaa;14720448]The opinions expressed below are my own…[/QUOTE]

Buckle your seat belts, we're going on a ride now, folks!!!!...

[QUOTE=kyaa;14720448]Based on the results above, I believe Clemons is working with an employee or employees at BGS who give his cards illegitimately high grades. I believe Clemons drops cards off at BGS, and uses some method to ensure that they are graded by his partner or partners. I am not saying every card graded by Clemons is part of this illegitimate process. But at least some are, and possibly all. (Second possibility that BGS is effecitvely selling high grades, see post 302 on page 13 [/QUOTE]

Ok, so why don't you tell us the real purpose of the thread, Kyaa?

[QUOTE=kyaa;14720448]

What This Means[/B][/SIZE]

[B]This is ongoing and a BGS employee(s) is almost certainly involved:[/B] Unless Clemons is somehow grading his own cards without BGS’s knowledge, a BGS employee is involved either giving Clemons these grades or selling them to him (see post 302) and there are submissions as recently as this month.

[B]BGS’s oversight staff deserves plenty of blame:[/B] Any reasonable quality control should have caught this. Cross checking between graders. Spot checking from management. Noticing the guy who comes in every couple weeks with ungraded cards and walks out with a stack of Black Labels. Either BGS staffers know about this and turned a blind eye, or they don’t pay enough attention to notice ridiculous outliers under their nose. [/QUOTE]

And what are we gonna do about it??!!

[QUOTE=kyaa;14720448]

[B]Action Items[/B][/SIZE]

[B]For BGS:[/B]
1) Fire the offender(s). Until you do, BGS grades are suspect.
2) Stop accepting submissions from Clemons or any known surrogates.
3) Issue a statement apologizing and explaining how you will prevent this in the future.
4) Offer refunds to anyone who bought one of Clemons’ cards (doubt many would want one if Black Labels maintain their BS mystique, but still. If I paid $500 or $1200 for one of his Black Labels I'd want a refund).

[B]For those of us who care about the integrity of the hobby:[/B]
1) Make sure BGS knows about this so they can’t blame their inaction on ignorance. I believe Jeromy Murray is one of the higher ups there. [email]jmurray@beckett.com[/email] I know many of you also work with BGS reps you can contact.
2) Make sure Brian Gray knows about this since Clemons now works for Leaf from what I’m told. [email]brian@leaftradingcards.com[/email] Perhaps some further investigation into the relationship between Gray and Clemons is warranted.
3) Don't purchase Black Labels. Let others know that there is a good chance they are illegitimate.
4) Stop using BGS unless they get their act together: I say this as someone with BGS cards for sale and a stack I was planning on to submit. It’s hard to leave money on the table, but BGS does not deserve our business until they address this.
4) Try to find out if there are others like Clemons. He probably has the most glaring record on eBay but there may be others.

[/QUOTE]


Since post #1 have we gotten anywhere closer to the truth? No, because we were never really after the truth. You want to know why the "Mob" reference keeps getting pointed out? Because we have 100 pages of basically the same arguments, by a leaderless group of accusers with no clear goal in mind, except blood.


[I]Definition of mob (Entry 1 of 2)

1 : a large and disorderly crowd of people
especially : one bent on riotous or destructive action [/I]

So that's where i stand on this thread at this point. Its tiring reading the same crap over and over.

...and will someone ask Kyaa for the DMs please!!!

We've gone as far as we are gonna go here...we got some data, though incomplete paints a good enough picture to most....Joe/Leaf will wait it out, Joe to continue scheming, BGS looking more slimy, there was a failed attempt to deflect against a couple other members, and now, I agree absent of some additional evidence, its over Johnny.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14736414]Your average person doesn't follow "complicated" math in long winded posts. [/QUOTE]

While this statement isn't untrue on its face, the implication that skeptics don't buy the statistical argument because it's too "complicated" is insulting and untrue.

The statistical arguments, including calculusdork's absurd battleship analogy, fail because they're plainly wrong, because they are based upon faulty assumptions. This has been ably pointed out by tribefan26 in post #2270, and it was also alluded to in Jewcer' s post.

And yes, the time between my posts correctly indicates that this thread has literally kept me up for half the night. Thanks for that, fellas.

I have kept up with this thread and The accusations probably have merit. As has been stated the love of money is the root to all kinds of evil. This has soured me to grading in general, but will never say I will not do it. The sad thing is quick bucks ruin people more then they think. Yes BO is a fraction of the collecting/investing world and most will never see this thread. People buy what they like or want and many times without research.

If this is a business for you, This could really hurt your bottom line. If you grade, as I do from time to time, a black label may never be in one of my orders, and if not so be it. I still lean toward the collecting side, so buying a black label will never happen. I try to keep,it fun.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14736414]While I don't think Joe's results are 100% legitimate, I agree with this. The reason why 312, corndog, and Dan have been so successful is that they are organized in their attack, and they present their information elegantly enough that anybody can pick up a thread at any point and understand what is going on. This thread is not that. It is a mess.

[B]The definitive proof that some people need here is not coming. There is no equivalent of a before and after comparison of the 1952 Mantle. Your average person doesn't follow "complicated" math in long winded posts. They're not going to click on countless eBay links to follow a trail. They need pictures, and short posts that are easy to understand.
[/B]
So my advice to those who are passionate enough about this, is to quit the amateur hour stuff and organize your efforts off the message board. When you have something, post it up.[/QUOTE]




The biggest problem here is the fact that Dan had incomplete data to begin with. Joe did not give him complete access to his records and would not let him post any screen shots or disclose the number of 10's he received.

[QUOTE=blackbears86;14736557]The biggest problem here is the fact that Dan had incomplete data to begin with. Joe did not give him complete access to his records and would not let him post any screen shots or disclose the number of 10's he received.[/QUOTE]

Sure. You are only pointing it out for the 100th time in this thread, also. Thanks for your contributions.

[QUOTE=Cubsfanp;14736565]Sure. You are only pointing it out for the 100th time in this thread, also. Thanks for your contributions.[/QUOTE]



Just reminding you because you conveniently forget about it.:coffee:

[QUOTE=dizzydolse;14735882]On a somewhat lighter note, I'm considering launching a full investigation on these characters based purely on curiosity. The chances that they actually believe the stuff they are regurgitating consistently, and in incredibly similar fashion, are about the same as Joe receiving those BL legitimately. So...the question then becomes, what is their motive and who the heck are they? I am genuinely at a loss and would love to hear some theories. If I wasn't so lazy, I would for sure dive into some of these accounts. It is just not adding up to me...











Dishonorable mention: pgisback, ballerskip, notfast, lisu, and many others...[/QUOTE]

Because we don’t agree with the pitchfork mentality and the mob theory? Awesome, please come after me. My reputation is impeccable.

pgisback wasn't "silenced for dissent", his posts were deleted for obvious trolling and for making obviously incorrect arguments over and over again. Saying "there's actually over 100 2001 Tiger Woods black labels" when there's only two black labels of the 2001 Upper Deck Gallery cards Joe submitted on January isn't valuable dissent, it's dishonest nonsense.

I agree that this thread has run its course. Every time something that didn't help Joe came up--the 2001 Tigers that took 18 years for two black label copies to surface, the serial numbers that didn't quite look like other people's orders, the incomplete data presented to Superdan--the thread was suddenly rushed by BG, or someone claiming they know Joe, or a big-time grader throwing around questions already answered in the hopes of confusing people. The conversation has literally moved towards "Joe didn't do anything wrong, only BGS did something wrong" at least three times now. I don't see how anyone can be so passionate about defeating a "mob mentality"--usually that kind of passion is reserved for defending friends.

At this point, all the thread is is confusing. I still don't see how Joe gets as many black labels compared to everyone else, but numbers aren't compelling to everyone.

If there's anything I could do to help look into this, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, we're going to have to wait for more data which might not be coming. This thread just isn't useful now.

[QUOTE=blackbears86;14736557]The biggest problem here is the fact that Dan had incomplete data to begin with. Joe did not give him complete access to his records and would not let him post any screen shots or disclose the number of 10's he received.[/QUOTE]

I've tried to do everything I can as one person using only publicly available information. I've produced a load of verifiable submission results, linked to Joe, with results that are statistically impossible measured against every other person who consistently submits to BGS. Joe has not produced a single shred of evidence in his defense.

If people are dumb enough to fall for the "Joe showed SuperDan a portion of his Black Labels and it was onlyl 14%" scam--something that was proven to be grossly incomplete in minutes because of other Black Labels sold by Joe that were not included, and did not include his mountain of BGS 10s--so be it.

On top of that, of course there are many other key points:
1) Joe claims to go through tens of thousands of cards but his eBay and Blowout purchase history shows little purchasing or sales of ungraded cards in the past year. Check for yourself.
2) To believe Joe is innocent, you have to believe he has a magical ability to consistently find the best specimen of card, after card, after card. Hundreds of other people buy packs, 20 count lots, submit the best of the best for years, none of them get a Black Label. Just Joe.
3) Joe's orders being serial numbered differently the rest of us--as if his grades are given before the serial numbers are assigned.
4) Everything HBMC has uncovered about the suspicious buying and selling of Joe's Black Labels through other closely linked eBay accounts--some who consistently "buy" Joe's cards and then sell them for a significant loss shortly after.
5) Not to mention the connections in the OP between Joe, Odd Items 4 Sale (First Class Card Guys) brought to my attention by 3012...on COMC, who you all seem to respect so much. Just another part of "Honest Joe's" impeccable record.

Of course, this evidence is incomplete. As is evidence in nearly every crime, fraud, etc, because the wrongdoers are the only ones with access to all the evidence. Joe and BGS have the records. I don't. They haven't produced one shred. I've tried to and still am piecing together Joe's submission results. If anyone is willing to help, please PM me.

And of course the evidence is circumstantial, like DNA or fingerprint evidence. Because I don't have a camera at BGS headquarters. But the math on this is even stronger than it is on DNA. 1 in 33 2018 TC Update are Black Label. Joe gets 8 in a row. Odds of that are 1.4 trillion. Multiply that by the odds on his other orders.

One thing I didn't anticipate before I started this, was what it would be like presenting evidence like this on a message board. Trolls spreading false information like wildfire. Even Leaf's CEO trying to distract and deflect suggesting things ike Black Labels are always consecutively numbered and about a dozen other whoppers. By the way, still waiting for the answer to who submitted the order that got those 22 consecutive Leaf Metal Black Labels, since it didn't show up in Joe's account. Maybe Brian Gray will let pgisback look at his submission records and report back to us.

And sadly, the thread format can b very consuing, making it difficult for people to tell the difference between fact and fiction. Disappointing, but good to know.

In any case, I believe the facts above prove the existence of illegitimate grading practices beyond a reasonable doubt, especially in light of not a single shred of evidence from Joe or BGS. BGS doesn't even seem to care enough to look into it--showing exactly how much they care about providing the "consistent, thorough, accurate" grading they guarantee all of us.
You're all entitled to your own opinion.

As I said, anyone who is interested in trying to gain more information, please PM me.

Reserved

Just because the information you are looking for isn't in front of you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Keep looking. Think outside the box.
To continue to dwell on assumptions and speculation is not productive.

[QUOTE=auburn35;14736306]Just curious if Superdan's agreement with Joe will prevent him from offering his opinion or adding to the future discussion on this topic. If I understand correctly, the agreement was just to present the selected information without bias (I believe it was), so with Dan being one of the lead investigators and also the go between, it would be interesting if his early viewpoint has changed.

With so much incomplete/misleading information, it's easy to see why there are several differing opinions.

As Joe has been described as a great guy, great eye (better than everyone else), knows what to look for, sorts through tons of cards........ It's quite possible he is just getting favorable grades from his "buddies" based on reputation.

People that "know him" on these boards, have favorable opinions of him and his grading capabilities. If the grader(s) happen to know they were working on Joe's submission, it's very likely the grading assessment could also be favorable.

Drop off an in-person order Monday and get mostly 9.5's with a few 10's and maybe some that don't reach the 9.5 level (someone that doesn't know Joe, is the grader)
Drop off an in-person order Tuesday and get mostly 10's with a few 9.5's (person that does know Joe, is the grader)

Without the specific order details (number of cards, grades.....) completely understanding the results is just a guess, on either side of the discussion.[/QUOTE]

From what I understand, the graders never know who the customer is. That is why Joe’s post stated it would take 5 people to be involved in any fraud at BGS. I will agree that there is varibility among graders though. Some are harder on corners, others on surface, etc etc. I have had orders be terrible in the past before because the grader was harsher on corners.

My last comment about Joe’s BGS history is that it won’t show the cards that that didn’t meet the min he set when submitting. That is why I feel that his releasing his BGS history actually doesn’t make sense. I understood him to have a min 9.5 slab or min 10 slab, and BGS records don’t show the rejects. It just looks disportionately high the number of BGS pristines and black labels because of that.

[QUOTE=kyaa;14736629]

On top of that, of course there are many other key points:
1) Joe claims to go through tens of thousands of cards but his eBay and Blowout purchase history shows little purchasing or sales of ungraded cards in the past year. Check for yourself.
2) To believe Joe is innocent, you have to believe he has a magical ability to consistently find the best specimen of card, after card, after card. Hundreds of other people buy packs, 20 count lots, submit the best of the best for years, none of them get a Black Label. Just Joe.
[/QUOTE]

I just want to point out that it's been stated many times already that Joe goes through the cheap boxes at shows and picks out the cards that he believes are in great shape. He doesn't buy cards on Ebay or Blowout because he only wants to buy cards that he can examine in person. I don't think you can use that to incriminate him because there are many people who never buy anything on Ebay or Blowout. I for one will never buy raw cards on Ebay after about 2 weeks from release.

[QUOTE=corndog;14736637]Just because the information you are looking for isn't in front of you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Keep looking. Think outside the box.
To continue to dwell on assumptions and speculation is not productive.[/QUOTE]

Fantastic advice.

[QUOTE=lisu;14736652]From what I understand, the graders never know who the customer is. That is why Joe’s post stated it would take 5 people to be involved in any fraud at BGS. I will agree that there is varibility among graders though. Some are harder on corners, others on surface, etc etc. I have had orders be terrible in the past before because the grader was harsher on corners.

My last comment about Joe’s BGS history is that it won’t show the cards that that didn’t meet the min he set when submitting. That is why I feel that his releasing his BGS history actually doesn’t make sense. I understood him to have a min 9.5 slab or min 10 slab, and BGS records don’t show the rejects. It just looks disportionately high the number of BGS pristines and black labels because of that.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure about that BGS history? I just looked at my submissions and all submitted cards are listed for each order. The ones that didn't meet minimum requirements are still displayed as part of an order.

For example. this card didn't meet my requested 9.5 grade
9109178 Baseball 2015 Bowman Chrome Prospect Autographs Blue Twitter Refractors Robert Refsnyder

This card did
9109179 Baseball 2015 Bowman Chrome Prospect Autographs Superfractors Robert Refsnyder

[QUOTE=lisu;14736672]I just want to point out that it's been stated many times already that Joe goes through the cheap boxes at shows and picks out the cards that he believes are in great shape. He doesn't buy cards on Ebay or Blowout because he only wants to buy cards that he can examine in person. I don't think you can use that to incriminate him because there are many people who never buy anything on Ebay or Blowout. I for one will never buy raw cards on Ebay after about 2 weeks from release.[/QUOTE]

Actually, if you look back, early on Joe tried to say that he makes huge purchases through Blowout. But then I did, and they weren't there, and he said, "oh, they must not leave feedback." But by all means, ignore that and continue selling your narrative that all the verifiable information we have is misleading, and that unsupported theories are accurate.