PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc
 

Here is the raw card: [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/55c3f1ebc813a7fdabbac749eb8b8ebb.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/d717941d79fca5ebc9484719dd8ae7e0.jpg[/IMG]

Here is the initial PSA slab sold through Heritage (photos by Heritage Auctions): [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/af0db6374de0a3c8815b768b3f649629.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/1e5c6c0d344f735e21c30575fcab5142.jpg[/IMG]

Current PSA slab through PWCC (photos by pwcc):

[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/290fe87eb68be7871c1fa6fdd93da3b7.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/058eae99d695d0740a09fd3b738a6ead.jpg[/IMG]

Was it trimmed left/right, up/down, or both?

Oof--this is the song that never ends...

How did they trim it and get no grade increase?

Fake? Trimmed? Different card? I can’t tell.

[QUOTE=Soxfanguy;14624938]How did they trim it and get no grade increase?[/QUOTE]

I think it was trimmed even before the initial grading

They did nice restorative work on that top right corner!

[QUOTE=LCM1223;14624944]I think it was trimmed even before the initial grading[/QUOTE]

Oh ok that makes sense

goodness that was a beautiful mantle! incredible shame about the trim. high profile card pwcc needs to take it down.

Beautiful card!

Trimmers suck at their job, could only get it to a 4.5. Good job catching this

[QUOTE=Soxfanguy;14624938]How did they trim it and get no grade increase?[/QUOTE]

trimmed from raw to initial grading. eye appeal is so nice im not totally surprised by the bump effort after first grading. but its an altered card now and worth maybe 20% of what it would have been without the trim.

[QUOTE=rainmaker;14624965]trimmed from raw to initial grading. eye appeal is so nice im not totally surprised by the bump effort after first grading. but its an altered card now and worth maybe 20% of what it would have been without the trim.[/QUOTE]
But it’s got that PWCC-HE designation. So it’s worth 97% more!

Context please.

Micky always liked getting some trim but not like this!

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14624973]But it’s got that PWCC-HE designation. So it’s worth 97% more![/QUOTE]

in a previous auction they gave one of my lower grade mantles the high end tag and it brought a 50% increase to the hammer over similar graded comps. for that i will forever embrace this tactic :coffee:

This was a stunning card from a family collection that I viewed about a year ago. I wasn’t convinced the edges weren’t trimmed and couldn’t agree on a price. I think the family sent it away as a consignment through Heritage. It has several distinct makes
Including a stain by the “e” of “Mickey”. I was shocked to see the transformation when I saw it initially for auction through Heritage last fall.

[QUOTE=astrotrevor;14624995]This was a stunning card from a family collection that I viewed about a year ago. I wasn’t convinced the edges weren’t trimmed and couldn’t agree on a price. I think the family sent it away as a consignment through Heritage. It has several distinct makes
Including a stain by the “e” of “Mickey”. I was shocked to see the transformation when I saw it initially for auction through Heritage last fall.[/QUOTE]
What a shame.

[QUOTE=astrotrevor;14624995]This was a stunning card from a family collection that I viewed about a year ago. I wasn’t convinced the edges weren’t trimmed and couldn’t agree on a price. I think the family sent it away as a consignment through Heritage. It has several distinct makes
Including a stain by the “e” of “Mickey”. I was shocked to see the transformation when I saw it initially for auction through Heritage last fall.[/QUOTE]

So...who trimmed it prior to grading, then?

I am somewhat slow. How do you know they are all the same card?

[QUOTE=dbpsooner;14625059]I am somewhat slow. How do you know they are all the same card?[/QUOTE]
There are markings. The most noticeable of which (to me) is the central black mark on the rear bottom edge.

You can also see a number of improvements in the quality of the rear left edge.

[QUOTE=jjeanius;14625053]So...who trimmed it prior to grading, then?[/QUOTE]



I have no idea. The edges looked rough when I saw / held the card. They looked much better when I saw completed auction through Heritage. To me, they looked even better this auction.

[QUOTE=dbpsooner;14625059]I am somewhat slow. How do you know they are all the same card?[/QUOTE]

To the left of the "E" in Mickey, on the front of the card. Consistent stain on all 3 pictures.

It's like Mick went in for the $299.99 detail service at Nissan.

[QUOTE=dbpsooner;14625059]I am somewhat slow. How do you know they are all the same card?[/QUOTE]



Thank you for asking. I wanted to ask the same question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14625070]There are markings. The most noticeable of which (to me) is the central black mark on the rear bottom edge.

You can also see a number of improvements in the quality of the rear left edge.[/QUOTE]
I'm seeing a dot mark below the "M" in Mantle in the PSA 4.5 but not the raw version.

I'm not 100% convinced this is the exact same card.

Check the cutting room floor for missing marks!

[QUOTE=astrotrevor;14625075]I have no idea. The edges looked rough when I saw / held the card. They looked much better when I saw completed auction through Heritage. To me, they looked even better this auction.[/QUOTE]

can you find out who they sold it to raw after you passed?

[QUOTE=Bowman1951;14625101]I'm seeing a dot mark below the "M" in Mantle in the PSA 4.50 but not the raw version.

I'm not 100% convinced this is the exact same card.[/QUOTE]



Good catch!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=Bowman1951;14625101]I'm seeing a dot mark below the "M" in Mantle in the PSA 4.50 but not the raw version.

I'm not 100% convinced this is the exact same card.[/QUOTE]
Nevermind....

[QUOTE=CharlieHustle;14625116]The one on the front? Between the "M" and the "I"?[/QUOTE]Yes, on the front.

And sorry, it's between the "A" and the "N".

[QUOTE=wharfrat7624;14625084]Thank you for asking. I wanted to ask the same question.
[/QUOTE]

I've looked at this card many times. The mentioned 'e' stain on the front, wear on the back at '433' and just above the black spot (center bottom). It also has a stain beside 'Kansas' and a light spot below the '311'. Also black dot to the left of the "A" in 'Topps Baseball' on back. It also has a black dot next to the '4' (Assists).

[QUOTE=Bowman1951;14625124]Yes, on the front.

And sorry, it's between the "A" and the "N".[/QUOTE]

Yeah, sorry, once I read "under the M", I rushed back to look at the pics, disregarding that you also said "Mantle".
You're right about that dot.

Knowing how much utter fraud goes into the preparation, grading and sale of vintage (and new!!) cards, you'd have to be a dupe of the highest order to ever spend any real money on these collectible pieces of easily manipulated cardboard.

The jig is up.

The crooks are in the hobby and they are making a killing. If a card doesn't come directly from a pack and into my hands, it's suspect. I'd never spend more than $100 on any single, ever. Too much risk of being the guy PT Barnum was talking about...

A sucker!

[QUOTE=ThoseBackPages;14625107]can you find out who they sold it to raw after you passed?[/QUOTE]



I’ve asked and the reply was “it was sold through Heritage auctions.”

[QUOTE=fitefanSHO;14625149]Knowing how much utter fraud goes into the preparation, grading and sale of vintage (and new!!) cards, you'd have to be a dupe of the highest order to ever spend any real money on these collectible pieces of easily manipulated cardboard.

The jig is up.

The crooks are in the hobby and they are making a killing. If a card doesn't come directly from a pack and into my hands, it's suspect. I'd never spend more than $100 on any single, ever. Too much risk of being the guy PT Barnum was talking about...

A sucker![/QUOTE]

i dont agree with all of this but i will not be a buyer of [I]high grade[/I] high value (5 figure) cards.

i dont mind high value low grade, i dont think anyone will alter a 14 cracker jack cobb psa 2. but any psa 7 or 8 (or even 4.5 i guess) 52 mantle is now always going to be questionable. i would never be a buyer even if i had the money.

Man, I was really hoping I didn't have to read more boring overreactions in yet another thread.

[QUOTE=Bowman1951;14625200]Man, I was really hoping I didn't have to read more boring overreactions in yet another thread.[/QUOTE]


good news...you don't have to. just don't click the link

Irrespective of trimmed/not trimmed, that is some amazing centering.

[QUOTE=jstephens24;14625236]good news...you don't have to. just don't click the link[/QUOTE]Uuuhhhh, what? Everything was great in here and informative until we had to be lectured yet again about how someone thinks people are dumb when dropping X amount of dollars on graded cards.

It gets old and boring super fast.

[QUOTE=PatchSentinel;14625303]Irrespective of trimmed/not trimmed, that is some amazing centering.[/QUOTE]

Not sure you can have the amazing centering without the trimming :D

It's like restoring a 54 chevy bel air.

Why you all hef to be so mad?

[youtube]xzpndHtdl9A[/youtube]

[QUOTE=mattglet;14625315]Not sure you can have the amazing centering without the trimming :D[/QUOTE]

I get what the jig is, but I'm talking about the original. Even with the dinged corners, I'd would've been happy with that and not felt the need to trim the card. #iguessmoneytalks.

[QUOTE=Bowman1951;14625314]Uuuhhhh, what? Everything was great in here and informative until we had to be lectured yet again about how someone thinks people are dumb when dropping X amount of dollars on graded cards.

It gets old and boring super fast.[/QUOTE]
Yup. shouldn't be much longer until we get the 'grading is a scam' crowd chiming in.

* If there's a hell way down below, I bet you see someone you know *

Pretty damm nice trim job. I will never buy from PWCC or Probstein.

* If there's a hell way down below, I bet you see someone you know *

[QUOTE=psd2k10;14625348]Pretty damm nice trim job. I will never buy from PWCC or Probstein.[/QUOTE]

i consign to pwcc often and my cards are clean :cool: i dont believe they are at fault if a consignor sends altered graded cards. put the blame on the psa.

as anyone should/would do, be sure to research if you are going to be spending big bucks.

with that it is their risk as the auction house and if a card is discovered to be altered they need to take it down or make the buyer whole should something be uncovered down the road.

[QUOTE=rainmaker;14625374]i consign to pwcc often and my cards are clean :cool: i dont believe they are at fault if a consignor sends altered graded cards. put the blame on the psa.

as anyone should/would do, be sure to research if you are going to be spending big bucks.[/QUOTE]

and I commend you for it. My problem with these two (actually 3 companies- counting Heritage now), is that they do't have a process to screen cards for potential alterations. To me it seems they care more for money than they do the hobby. I get it, most cards are legit but because they show no care for this issue and because they have been caught multiple times, they wont get my business.

* If there's a hell way down below, I bet you see someone you know *

If OP can provide confirmation that the card was sent raw to Heritage...

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14625428]If OP can provide confirmation that the card was sent raw to Heritage...[/QUOTE]

He doesn’t know what happened to the card. He can confirm.

ETA: It does make sense that Heritage had it graded though because if you look around that first Mantle serial number, there’s a bunch of massive cards sold by Heritage. Close to 7 figures if I remember correctly.

[QUOTE=3124508 on COMC;14625431]He doesn’t know what happened to the card. He can confirm.[/QUOTE]
But he said he believes the family sent it to Heritage. He could reach out to them again?

“As all the slab-heads grab at their collection....no...not my precious”

[QUOTE=discostu;14625422]Unless we're to believe that the original owner of this card pressed/restored the card themselves, then submitted it to PSA...then we need to believe that Heritage pressed/restored the card and then submitted it to PSA.

It's not a matter of these auction houses not having a process to screen for alternations...it appears to be the fact that they actually screen for the need to alter and submit/resubmit.[/QUOTE]

oh be careful there i dont think that your last sentence is accurate. would have to find clear evidence it was bought by heritage or the original beneficiary worked with heritage to sell. my guess is a 3rd party bought it for a good price, altered it and sent it to heritage.

heritage is a massive world known auction house that wouldnt risk their reputation for a 40k mickey mantle card. i would stand by them 100% until crystal clear proof of the contrary. and if that were to happen their multi-million dollar business would crumble.

[QUOTE=rainmaker;14625445]oh be careful there i dont think that your last sentence is accurate. would have to find clear evidence it was bought by heritage or the original beneficiary worked with heritage to sell. my guess is a 3rd party bought it for a good price, altered it and sent it to heritage.

heritage is a massive world known auction house that wouldnt risk their reputation for a 40k mickey mantle card. i would stand by them 100% until crystal clear proof of the contrary. and if that were to happen their multi-million dollar business would crumble.[/QUOTE]

This is one of the worst cards in that PSA sub. Either way, not good.

Take a look at the surrounding serial #s

96: 1952 Mays PSA 8
97: NOT FOUND
98: OP Mantle
99: 1952 Mantle PSA 8 (Heritage 11/2018)
00: 1952 Mantle PSA 6.5 (Heritage 2/2019)

Wonder why the 97 card was struck from the database?

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14625474]Take a look at the surrounding serial #s

96: 1952 Mays PSA 8
97: NOT FOUND
98: OP Mantle
99: 1952 Mantle PSA 8 (Heritage 11/2018)
00: 1952 Mantle PSA 6.5 (Heritage 2/2019)

Wonder why the 97 card was struck from the database?[/QUOTE]

20% catch rate of trimmed cards?

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14625474]Take a look at the surrounding serial #s

96: 1952 Mays PSA 8
97: NOT FOUND
98: OP Mantle
99: 1952 Mantle PSA 8 (Heritage 11/2018)
00: 1952 Mantle PSA 6.5 (Heritage 2/2019)

Wonder why the 97 card was struck from the database?[/QUOTE]

There’s missing cards all over both the PSA and BGS databases. Probably nothing to get worked up about. If you keep searching there’s more $$$$ cards just like those. Pretty interesting.

* If there's a hell way down below, I bet you see someone you know *

[QUOTE=discostu;14625483]

I'm not taking a great leap here to assume that the original owner doesn't have the comfort or skill-set to press/restore a 1952 Mantle[/QUOTE]

There were over 200 1952 Topps cards in pile. None in a penny sleeve. The Mantle was in the best condition followed by a Mays. The collection also had a Matthews and many other high numbered cards. I believe the others (excluding the Mantle) sold during the same auction as a lot

Doesn't look trimmed. I'm guessing it got pressed to repair the edge and corner wear but not trimmed.

Arthur

For those who may be having difficulty seeing that these three images are all of the same card, I chose to look at the back of the card where the card stock is in it's unbleached fibrous natural surface. I have circled the same spots on each image where there are visible fibers in the paper stock. Fibers are no different than autographs in that each vintage card will be one of a kind as long as you can match fibers.

OP, this in an excellent job by you of catching an alteration on a vintage card!
This trimming/altering/grading fiasco just blew wide open with genuine proof!

Raw:
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1026923040_o.jpg[/IMG]

1st PSA:
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1026923047_o.jpg[/IMG]

Current PSA:
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1026923056_o.jpg[/IMG]

I think you guys are going to find that pressing a card isn't as looked down upon as trimming or rebuilding or chemical soaks. Don't get me wrong, I know you're all out to just light the torches and grab the pitchforks so it's going to happen anyway but if you put this on Net54 I bet you'd just get the usual anti-PWCC/anti-PSA people, like we're going to see here.

Arthur

* If there's a hell way down below, I bet you see someone you know *

[QUOTE=HarryLime;14625570]I think you guys are going to find that pressing a card isn't as looked down upon as trimming or rebuilding or chemical soaks. Don't get me wrong, I know you're all out to just light the torches and grab the pitchforks so it's going to happen anyway but if you put this on Net54 I bet you'd just get the usual anti-PWCC/anti-PSA people, like we're going to see here.

Arthur[/QUOTE]

Arthur,

I'd be pretty bummed if I was the buyer and found out after the fact the
card had any type of work done to it, including pressing of corners. Might
not bother me on an 1967 Bob Gibson or 2018 Acuna. I'd rather have it
sold to me as it was than fixed up.

[QUOTE=HarryLime;14625570]I think you guys are going to find that pressing a card isn't as looked down upon as trimming or rebuilding or chemical soaks. Don't get me wrong, I know you're all out to just light the torches and grab the pitchforks so it's going to happen anyway but if you put this on Net54 I bet you'd just get the usual anti-PWCC/anti-PSA people, like we're going to see here.

Arthur[/QUOTE]
If it’s not looked down upon, it would have been disclosed in the auction.

[QUOTE=HarryLime;14625570]I think you guys are going to find that pressing a card isn't as looked down upon as trimming or rebuilding or chemical soaks. Don't get me wrong, I know you're all out to just light the torches and grab the pitchforks so it's going to happen anyway but if you put this on Net54 I bet you'd just get the usual anti-PWCC/anti-PSA people, like we're going to see here.

Arthur[/QUOTE]

If that's the case then it shouldn't be a problem if it's disclosed to potential buyers. After all, if its NBD it should bring the same amount of money, right?

Oh I wasn't trying to say that the info and discussion is without merit, it certainly has merit. And this is definitely stuff that should be shared so other collectors know about it. I just know where this thread is going to end up, that's all.

Tony, I certainly respect your opinion. I'm not real comfortable with the fact that Heritage did it on their own and without knowledge or consent from the consignor. There's a whole barrel full of worms to be opened there. But, then again, I have a laundry list of issues with Heritage to begin with, so...

I'm not sure how I feel about the disclosure part. On one hand, I think there are a lot of people like you that would obviously want to know about what has been done to the card so you could refrain from bidding. On the other hand, I think of some of the prewar sets I've found glued into albums and had to soak out -- it never occurred to me that I would need to disclose that information down the line and I wouldn't feel nefarious if I didn't.

Big gray area.

Arthur

i agree disclosure if important.

a press is always disclosed when done to comic books. its an accepted practice but if the seller has knowledge on it then disclosure is expected.

now comic booking is a different hobby with far greater character than sports cards and far fewer examples of each item. but even still any alteration whether accepted or not should always be disclosed. thats not pitchforking thats just being forthright in ones handling of a sale.

[QUOTE=yankee98;14625631]If that's the case then it shouldn't be a problem if it's disclosed to potential buyers. After all, if its NBD it should bring the same amount of money, right?[/QUOTE]

Haha okay, right. Because that's what I said.

Arthur

I must admit I know next to nothing about vintage but never heard of pressing or soaking before

Just joining in. Upper left corner of the reverse of the raw Mantle: is that a shadow or a paper flaw/ink stain? It is gone in both graded photos.

[QUOTE=boston12;14625668]I must admit I know next to nothing about vintage but never heard of pressing or soaking before[/QUOTE]

I was talking to a dealer at the Philly show a couple years ago about a 68 Ryan RC I had that I thought was a 6 but came back from PSA as a 4. PSA told me they dropped it two graded because there was a slight indentation not visible to the naked eye. I explained this to him and he said he could soak and press to get it out. I opted not to because I did not feel comfortable doing this, sent to PWCC and they gave an HE rating and I made a little $$$ on it.