Alteration vs. Conservation Defined
 

PWCC will soon publish our Marketplace Tenets, which describes the rules of engagement for transacting on the PWCC Marketplace and the commitments and responsibilities of all parties involved. Among other things, the Tenets will describe what cards we will allow to be sold on our marketplace and will draw a distinction between cards that were altered and cards that were conserved. Cards that are proven altered through physical evidence are not allowed to be sold, while cards that are proven conserved are indeed allowed to be sold.

In an effort to define an enforceable PWCC policy, we want to open up the dialogue with the community to allow for feedback before our official Tenets are published. Acceptable forms of conservation exist in all collectibles markets, ranging from coins to comics to fine art, and we feel it’s time the trading card market better defines a stance on what is acceptable conservation. The following is a draft of our current understanding of majority opinion, and this is subject to edit.

[B]Conservation.[/B] PWCC believes conservation, as defined, to be healthy, sustainable, and supportive of the marketplace and the investors and collectors who participate. Assets that have been conserved can be sold on the PWCC Marketplace.

Conservation is defined as an act which returns an asset closer to its as-manufactured condition but does not otherwise enhance or artificially distance the asset beyond the as-manufactured status. An act which removes a foreign substance from an asset and does so in a way which doesn’t otherwise alter the condition of the as-manufactured product is usually considered acceptable and generally renders the asset worthy of professional grading. Dirt, glue, writing, wax and other foreign substances can be removed from an asset and the result is considered acceptable conservation, so long as the professional Third-Party Authenticators agree the asset is void of unnatural aspects induced as a result of the conservation. Lying flat a warped or bent region of a card (i.e. in a screw down holder), so long as it doesn’t disrupt the card’s natural properties, is generally considered acceptable conservation, whereas pressing a card and thereby changing its as-manufactured properties (i.e. thickness of the card stock) is generally not acceptable and may render the card altered. Laying flat a nonplanar corner, crease, or edge, so long as the card stock is not pressed to a state of artificial thickness, is typically acceptable so long as no other unnatural change to the as-manufactured card stock is discernable.

[B]Alteration.[/B] PWCC believes alteration, as defined, is damaging to the marketplace. Altered assets cannot be sold on the PWCC Marketplace unless this detail is disclosed during the sale.

Alteration includes any act which meaningfully renders a change to the as-manufactured qualities of the asset, outside of the normal wear and deterioration inherent to circulation. Any purposeful material addition or material removal to or from the as-manufactured asset, outside of normal wear or environmental degradation, is generally considered an alteration. Trimming, recoloring, autograph retracing, rebuilding of corners or other surfaces, swapping of patches, or any other action which distances a card from its as-manufactured attributes is considered an act of alteration. Altered cards which are stated as such in a transparent nature are permitted for sale on the Marketplace.

Alteration is only ever officially determined by the presence of physical evidence. Speculation is not considered evidence. Evidence of alteration can be determined in two different ways; either in technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator, or when digital content asserts beyond a reasonable doubt that an alteration took place (i.e. before and after photos of trimming, recoloring, etc).

Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. The best way to share feedback is to send me a direct email at [email]betsy@pwccmarketplace.com[/email]. I will come back onto this thread to gather feedback periodically, but won't be responding to comments actively. Thank you!

As it is written so shall it be.

Please define which of these is conservation. Thank you.

[QUOTE=astrotrevor;14624920]Here is the raw card: [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/55c3f1ebc813a7fdabbac749eb8b8ebb.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/d717941d79fca5ebc9484719dd8ae7e0.jpg[/IMG]

Here is the initial PSA slab sold through Heritage: [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/af0db6374de0a3c8815b768b3f649629.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/1e5c6c0d344f735e21c30575fcab5142.jpg[/IMG]

Current PSA slab through PWCC:

[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/290fe87eb68be7871c1fa6fdd93da3b7.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/058eae99d695d0740a09fd3b738a6ead.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=corndog;14642002]I was able to find an earlier sale of the highlighted in red 1948 Leaf Stan Musial PSA 7 that was sold by PWCC on April 9, 2019. The exact same card was a BVG 6 and sold on November 11, 2017. I did the best I could to do a split screen of the two cards top to bottom and align the interior blue image up. The right edge of the PSA 7 has been trimmed - look at the white border lineup on the right edge. I have circled the areas that identify the two cards as being the same. I had to view 587 completed listings on Worthpoint to find the BVG sample. I don't have the capability to see who made the BVG purchase.

From the list I selected the Musial card first and was able to find the pre-trimmed sale. Any help to identify the buyer would be greatly appreciated.

Link to the Ebay PSA-7 sale here: [URL="https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Stan-Musial-ROOKIE-RC-4-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-HE-/401739891345?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true"]https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Stan-Musial-ROOKIE-RC-4-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-HE-/401739891345?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true[/URL]
Link to the BVG-6 sale here: [URL="https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1948-1949-leaf-stan-musial-rc-bvg-1896777694"]https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1948-1949-leaf-stan-musial-rc-bvg-1896777694[/URL]

Split image with PSA 7 on the top:
2[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027347456_o.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027346696_o.jpg[/IMG]

PSA 7 and BVG 6 front:
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027350007_o.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027352198_o.jpg[/IMG]

PSA 7 and BVG 6 back:
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027350227_o.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027350304_o.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=3124508 on COMC;14642654]My turn!

[url]https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackLeftForOthers&userid=ssho1659&iid=-1&de=off&searchInterval=30&items=200&searchInterval=30[/url]


[IMG]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0218/15/1948-leaf-121-dom-dimaggio-hof-red_1_9608747ff685a745b4d204f26bf52e7e.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images2/1/0218/15/1948-leaf-121-dom-dimaggio-hof-red_1_9608747ff685a745b4d204f26bf52e7e.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pwccauctions/2019/2019_3/medium/2_0216A509.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pwccauctions/2019/2019_3/medium/2_0216A510.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=CaptSpaulding;14642601][url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-National-Chicle-Football-Flavio-Bull-Tosi-27-PSA-6-EXMT-PWCC-PQ-/143006454290?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true[/url] This was won by a buyer with 3805 feedback.

[url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-National-Chicle-Football-Flavio-Bull-Tosi-27-PSA-8-NM-MT-PWCC-/352617679642?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true[/url] Here it is once it was relisted.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=3124508 on COMC;14642771][url]https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=deborlarso_0&iid=-1&de=off&items=200&interval=0&searchInterval=30&mPg=2&page=2[/url]

Fisheye in blue on back in same place. Dark dot under Stooges on back of both.

[IMG]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0617/28/1959-fleer-three-stooges-isa-grading_1_9aa895d37d05df32f95d6c3ca72fdb9f.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images4/1/0617/28/1959-fleer-three-stooges-isa-grading_1_9aa895d37d05df32f95d6c3ca72fdb9f.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pwccauctions/2017/2017_11/2_1107F9_1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pwccauctions/2017/2017_11/2_1107F10_1.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=corndog;14642960]Another one: Very vintage 1888 N162 Goodwin Champions Beecher

Previously graded an SGC-2.5 when sold through Heritage Auctions on November 16, 2018. Worthpoint link here: [URL="https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1888-n162-goodwin-champions-henry-1974244745"]https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1888-n162-goodwin-champions-henry-1974244745[/URL]
Sold for $8,500 by PWCC as a PSA-5 on April 21, 2019 here: [URL="https://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N162-Goodwin-Champions-Beecher-ROOKIE-RC-PSA-5-EX-PWCC-/143211321533?hash=item21580f58bd%3Ag%3AcrwAAOSwGNFcr5eN&nma=true&si=mqZwGBb%252FvHUaLUeYzY%252F79qNQGjg%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557"]https://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N162-Goodwin-Champions-Beecher-ROOKIE-RC-PSA-5-EX-PWCC-/143211321533?hash=item21580f58bd%3Ag%3AcrwAAOSwGNFcr5eN&nma=true&si=mqZwGBb%252FvHUaLUeYzY%252F79qNQGjg%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557[/URL]

Card has undergone a major restoration.

Fronts:
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027371863_o.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027371853_o.jpg[/IMG]

Backs with fibers matched:

[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027371857_o.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027371865_o.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=superdan49;14643121]1955 Parkhurst Wrestling #13 Lou Pitoscia PSA 5.5 becomes PSA 8

eBay seller: teddyball
eBay buyer: whitman111

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ZZPp8mU.jpg[/IMG]


[URL="https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=teddyball&iid=-1&de=off&interval=0&searchInterval=30&items=200&searchInterval=30"]https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=teddyball&iid=-1&de=off&interval=0&searchInterval=30&items=200&searchInterval=30[/URL]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/VmL09VG.png[/IMG]



[URL="https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1936427"]https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1936427[/URL]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/QJTJ6cV.jpg[/IMG]



[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/o5E7DkM.png[/IMG]



This is one of about 15 mid-grade Parkhurst wresting cards whitman111 bought from teddyball. I found this Pitoscia card in PWCC's archives. It was purchased as a PSA 5.5 for $17.50. It sold with PWCC for $331.[/QUOTE]

The collecting world disagrees with you.

Good luck.

By the way, have you began to refund the $100,000 plus from the cards proven altered in the Mantle thread?

* When the situation is hopeless, there's nothing to worry about. *

I think they posted it in each thread to divy up the responses that this was clearly written by some third rate lawyer. I think PWCC is a much, much bigger player in this circle than they are getting credit for.

So basically you are ok with some alterations but not all? Both of your definitions are alterations in most people’s minds.

This is my favorite part.

[QUOTE]Dirt, glue, writing, wax and other foreign substances can be removed from an asset and the result is considered acceptable conservation, so long as the professional Third-Party Authenticators agree the asset is void of unnatural aspects induced as a result of the conservation.[/QUOTE]
So long as PSA agrees or can't detect said removal. Because using any kind of solution to remove these substances is not allowed per PSA.

[QUOTE]N-7 Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=clocsta2323;14645774]I think they posted it in each thread to divy up the responses that this was clearly written by some third rate lawyer. I think PWCC is a much, much bigger player in this circle than they are getting credit for.[/QUOTE]
Of course. Which is why I posted in every thread the blatant examples of cards they have sold or are selling that by anyone's definition here, have been altered. Do they believe these examples have all been conserved and not altered? Then they should say so. Do they believe any of the examples have been altered? Then they should reach out to the buyers and make it right.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14645788]Of course. Which is why I posted in every thread the blatant examples of cards they have sold or are selling that by anyone's definition here, have been altered. Do they believe these examples have all been conserved and not altered? Then they should say so. Do they believe any of the examples have been altered? Then they should reach out to the buyers and make it right.[/QUOTE]

I just don't think anyone at PWCC realizes what they have gotten themselves into yet... its baffling but their post leads me to that conclusion.


They are WAY past disclaimers and tenets(seriously??)

[QUOTE=corndog;14645740]The collecting world disagrees with you.

Good luck.

By the way, have you began to refund the $100,000 plus from the cards proven altered in the Mantle thread?[/QUOTE]

I must have missed the vote.

[QUOTE=PWCC Marketplace;14645659]PWCC will soon publish our Marketplace Tenets, which describes the rules of engagement for transacting on the PWCC Marketplace and the commitments and responsibilities of all parties involved. Among other things, the Tenets will describe what cards we will allow to be sold on our marketplace and will draw a distinction between cards that were altered and cards that were conserved. Cards that are proven altered through physical evidence are not allowed to be sold, while cards that are proven conserved are indeed allowed to be sold.

In an effort to define an enforceable PWCC policy, we want to open up the dialogue with the community to allow for feedback before our official Tenets are published. Acceptable forms of conservation exist in all collectibles markets, ranging from coins to comics to fine art, and we feel it’s time the trading card market better defines a stance on what is acceptable conservation. The following is a draft of our current understanding of majority opinion, and this is subject to edit.

[B]Conservation.[/B] PWCC believes conservation, as defined, to be healthy, sustainable, and supportive of the marketplace and the investors and collectors who participate. Assets that have been conserved can be sold on the PWCC Marketplace.

Conservation is defined as an act which returns an asset closer to its as-manufactured condition but does not otherwise enhance or artificially distance the asset beyond the as-manufactured status. An act which removes a foreign substance from an asset and does so in a way which doesn’t otherwise alter the condition of the as-manufactured product is usually considered acceptable and generally renders the asset worthy of professional grading. Dirt, glue, writing, wax and other foreign substances can be removed from an asset and the result is considered acceptable conservation, so long as the professional Third-Party Authenticators agree the asset is void of unnatural aspects induced as a result of the conservation. Lying flat a warped or bent region of a card (i.e. in a screw down holder), so long as it doesn’t disrupt the card’s natural properties, is generally considered acceptable conservation, whereas pressing a card and thereby changing its as-manufactured properties (i.e. thickness of the card stock) is generally not acceptable and may render the card altered. Laying flat a nonplanar corner, crease, or edge, so long as the card stock is not pressed to a state of artificial thickness, is typically acceptable so long as no other unnatural change to the as-manufactured card stock is discernable.

[B]Alteration.[/B] PWCC believes alteration, as defined, is damaging to the marketplace. Altered assets cannot be sold on the PWCC Marketplace unless this detail is disclosed during the sale.

Alteration includes any act which meaningfully renders a change to the as-manufactured qualities of the asset, outside of the normal wear and deterioration inherent to circulation. Any purposeful material addition or material removal to or from the as-manufactured asset, outside of normal wear or environmental degradation, is generally considered an alteration. Trimming, recoloring, autograph retracing, rebuilding of corners or other surfaces, swapping of patches, or any other action which distances a card from its as-manufactured attributes is considered an act of alteration. Altered cards which are stated as such in a transparent nature are permitted for sale on the Marketplace.

Alteration is only ever officially determined by the presence of physical evidence. Speculation is not considered evidence. Evidence of alteration can be determined in two different ways; either in technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator, or when digital content asserts beyond a reasonable doubt that an alteration took place (i.e. before and after photos of trimming, recoloring, etc).

Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. The best way to share feedback is to send me a direct email at [email]betsy@pwccmarketplace.com[/email]. I will come back onto this thread to gather feedback periodically, but won't be responding to comments actively. Thank you![/QUOTE]

You do know there will be an indictment soon. It may be tomorrow, it may be in six months, but this has gotten to big. Your post clearly displays your company has no idea of the serverity of your situation.

I wasn’t sure what ‘PWCC Marketplace’ meant above, so I googled.

I found something called a PWCC Vault that is apparently part of that marketplace. It looks like it will go live soon, and there will apparently be no transparency about the transactions that will occur there - the way the PWCC site reads, buying there will be anonymous.

Anyone find this Vault troubling given the current PWCC climate?

The Vault is also being promoted actively as a way to evade state sales tax.

PWCC's explanations for most controversial issues that surround them tend to be filled with total dishonesty and spin.

If steps of conservation are so acceptable then why have they not been disclosed to date? Also how do we know anyone at PWCC is qualified to make the determination between what they deem a card that has undergone conservation and one that was altered. This really requires consignors to disclose the work that has been done. No consignor who has worked on a card is going to disclose anything at all.

This all so silly.

Removing wax, gum stains etc. Is one thing. but all these graded cards that have been verified as trimed/altered recently, has to only be a small percentage of them. It s terrible for the 'hobby' plain and simple

[QUOTE=mjohnatgt;14645905]The Vault is also being promoted actively as a way to evade state sales tax.[/QUOTE]

This isn't surprising either.

I think the damage has been done at this point. There are obviously a lot of issues with whats been posted previously and with how it's being handled.

:popcorn:

You didn't think a response from pwcc was going to make things better for them, did you?

all this bluster, and they’ve chosen the completely wrong word to obfuscate matters further. Discostu had it right, this is NOT conservation even in the slightest, but restoration. But conservation has a positive connotation while restoration doesn’t. Words mean things, PWCC. WE SEE YOU.

[QUOTE=chezball;14646001]You didn't think a response from pwcc was going to make things better for them, did you?[/QUOTE]


I think people were expecting a better response. lol.

They obviously have a record of whom submitted these cards. I think most individuals would like to see more than a slap on the wrist.

If their going to slap their quality high end logo on everything. Perhaps they should also do a better job sorting everything coming through the door. It's easy to blame PSA as well ,but if their inspecting the quality with some of their listings... their at fault as well.


From their website :

On average, PWCC Certified cards have consistently sold for 130-200% of average market.

More profit for a FRACTION OF THE CARD. lol.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14645780]This is my favorite part.


So long as PSA agrees or can't detect said removal. Because using any kind of solution to remove these substances is not allowed per PSA.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't address salt or earth stains. lol

Speculation is not considered evidence?

Or

Evidence is considered speculation...when the dollar value is high enough.

well. Apparently that is what we are all going to get. Hopefully, At some point this will all come crashing down with either and indictment or better yet some sort of restitution to all the poor saps that were duped out of a lot of money.

What a JOKE. There is really nothing else PWCC will say. Every thing that they say just shows their arrogance in the whole situation and they will NEVER admit wrongdoing.

All that can be done is to keep bumping threads, finding more altered cards they sell and hopefully at some point their impertinence to fraud gets outed with a big news outlet and the house of cards come crumbling down.

This is clearly not conservation. It is clearly restoration, which has many synonyms in common with the word...”alteration”.

When you start calling baseball cards an asset, stupid stuff like this and hos happen. Scumbags!

[QUOTE=CMpunk13;14646271]When you start calling baseball cards an asset, stupid stuff like this and hos happen. Scumbags![/QUOTE]

ECW! ECW! ECW!

[QUOTE=chezball;14646001]You didn't think a response from pwcc was going to make things better for them, did you?[/QUOTE]
I actually did, and I am surprised to:

1. See them post this so soon.
2. See them present something incomplete.

They are the card business experts though. Who am I to judge?

Wow, I have no idea what to even say about this. I wonder how much business they have lost and how many of their buyers have asked for a refund?

Besides calling out all of the trimmed cards, etc., everyone needs to unsubscribe from PWCC and PSA mailing lists and not patronize either business in any way going forward. Short of legal consequences, this is the best way to send a message.

[QUOTE=LSUNatChamps;14646315]Besides calling out all of the trimmed cards, etc., everyone needs to unsubscribe from PWCC and PSA mailing lists and not patronize either business in any way going forward. Short of legal consequences, this is the best way to send a message.[/QUOTE]

Ding! Ding! Totally agreed. That thread from 2005 shows that PSA has not changed their business practices. Seems every couple years a big scandal breaks out involving PSA of some sort. They delete threads and play spin. Life goes on and they make more money. Probably too many big money guys with a lot of cash tied up in PSA holders to not play along.

Conservation is an act in attempt to stop further damage from an item. Like de acidifying a piece of paper/cardboard to keep it from degrading. PWCC is not talking about conservation, but two types of restoration.

[QUOTE=daveyc1;14646375]Conservation is an act in attempt to stop further damage from an item. Like deck acidifying a piece of paper/cardboard. PWCC is not talking about conservation, but two types of restoration.[/QUOTE]


Agree. It's pretty clear they are actively engaged in "conservation" whether they are "conserving" their own inventory or advising clients on the hows and whys of "conservation".

I've always known that this hobby attracts a higher % of scum than average. I've taken it with a grain of salt. But this whole things has me disillusioned. And it's not like I'd ever buy these higher value cards.

For once, I'd like some big name in the hobby act as a gatekeeper instead of talking about pretending to be one all while working toward being one of its biggest villains.

[QUOTE=rcmb3220;14646445]Agree. It's pretty clear they are actively engaged in "conservation" whether they are "conserving" their own inventory or advising clients on the hows and whys of "conservation".

I've always known that this hobby attracts a higher % of scum than average. I've taken it with a grain of salt. But this whole things has me disillusioned. And it's not like I'd ever buy these higher value cards.

For once, I'd like some [B]big name in the hobby[/B] act as a gatekeeper instead of talking about pretending to be one all while working toward being one of its biggest villains.[/QUOTE]
Blowout may not actively be doing so, but I commend them for allowing these threads to continue. You can't have these discussions elsewhere.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14646455]Blowout may not actively be doing so, but I commend them for allowing these threads to continue. You can't have these discussions elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

Very true. Do this on Net 54 and Leon fabricates a reason to ban you. Can’t harm those advertisers.

[QUOTE=TheRealDeal;14646489]Very true. Do this on Net 54 and Leon fabricates a reason to ban you. Can’t harm those advertisers.[/QUOTE]


That and the fact he's likely sunk quite a bit of money into the companies cards as well. A lot of undiscovered trimmed vintage floating out there in slabs.

conservation shouldnt apply to sportscards unless they are being sold as restored right in the description. pwcc, seriously i would just stop posting in here.

I sure hope they have good attorneys.

I take it all the hate and discontent is directed towards soaking a card to remove stains? I really dont see any difference than removing wax or gum stains from a card. Whether someone uses their finger, pantyhose, eraser or water. I've actually used a cloth and water to wipe away some gum particles on the surface of a card. I never imagined I should have filled the sink with water and left it in there overnight. :)

[QUOTE=TheRealDeal;14646489]Very true. Do this on Net 54 and Leon fabricates a reason to ban you. Can’t harm those advertisers.[/QUOTE]

That isn't exactly fair. There are many posts highly critical of PWCC on 54. Carry on.

[QUOTE=WhiteSoxJosh;14646546]I sure hope they have good attorneys.[/QUOTE]

If they were advised to post this by attorneys, I would say not.

Vocabulary problem for sure. Conservation is intended to preserve an item from further deterioration. Few or none of the supposedly acceptable things they list are so intended. Man, if you're going to go to all that trouble, use words properly.

It's all in the name.

[B]P[/B]rofessionally
[B]W[/B]hitened
[B]C[/B]ut
[B]C[/B]ards

[QUOTE=PWCC Marketplace;14645659]PWCC will soon publish our Marketplace Tenets, which describes the rules of engagement for transacting on the PWCC Marketplace and the commitments and responsibilities of all parties involved. Among other things, the Tenets will describe what cards we will allow to be sold on our marketplace and will draw a distinction between cards that were altered and cards that were conserved. Cards that are proven altered through physical evidence are not allowed to be sold, while cards that are proven conserved are indeed allowed to be sold.

In an effort to define an enforceable PWCC policy, we want to open up the dialogue with the community to allow for feedback before our official Tenets are published. Acceptable forms of conservation exist in all collectibles markets, ranging from coins to comics to fine art, and we feel it’s time the trading card market better defines a stance on what is acceptable conservation. The following is a draft of our current understanding of majority opinion, and this is subject to edit.

[B]Conservation.[/B] PWCC believes conservation, as defined, to be healthy, sustainable, and supportive of the marketplace and the investors and collectors who participate. Assets that have been conserved can be sold on the PWCC Marketplace.

Conservation is defined as an act which returns an asset closer to its as-manufactured condition but does not otherwise enhance or artificially distance the asset beyond the as-manufactured status. An act which removes a foreign substance from an asset and does so in a way which doesn’t otherwise alter the condition of the as-manufactured product is usually considered acceptable and generally renders the asset worthy of professional grading. Dirt, glue, writing, wax and other foreign substances can be removed from an asset and the result is considered acceptable conservation, so long as the professional Third-Party Authenticators agree the asset is void of unnatural aspects induced as a result of the conservation. Lying flat a warped or bent region of a card (i.e. in a screw down holder), so long as it doesn’t disrupt the card’s natural properties, is generally considered acceptable conservation, whereas pressing a card and thereby changing its as-manufactured properties (i.e. thickness of the card stock) is generally not acceptable and may render the card altered. Laying flat a nonplanar corner, crease, or edge, so long as the card stock is not pressed to a state of artificial thickness, is typically acceptable so long as no other unnatural change to the as-manufactured card stock is discernable.

[B]Alteration.[/B] PWCC believes alteration, as defined, is damaging to the marketplace. Altered assets cannot be sold on the PWCC Marketplace unless this detail is disclosed during the sale.

Alteration includes any act which meaningfully renders a change to the as-manufactured qualities of the asset, outside of the normal wear and deterioration inherent to circulation. Any purposeful material addition or material removal to or from the as-manufactured asset, outside of normal wear or environmental degradation, is generally considered an alteration. Trimming, recoloring, autograph retracing, rebuilding of corners or other surfaces, swapping of patches, or any other action which distances a card from its as-manufactured attributes is considered an act of alteration. Altered cards which are stated as such in a transparent nature are permitted for sale on the Marketplace.

Alteration is only ever officially determined by the presence of physical evidence. Speculation is not considered evidence. Evidence of alteration can be determined in two different ways; either in technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator, or when digital content asserts beyond a reasonable doubt that an alteration took place (i.e. before and after photos of trimming, recoloring, etc).

Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. The best way to share feedback is to send me a direct email at [email]betsy@pwccmarketplace.com[/email]. I will come back onto this thread to gather feedback periodically, but won't be responding to comments actively. Thank you![/QUOTE]

All that to justify selling a 4.5 Mantle? Hope it was worth it.

i.e. alteration is only alteration if a TPA catches it?

If the marketplace supports conservation, test it out. For the next month, require all sellers to note how their cards were conserved. See if there is a significant difference in pricing between conserved and non-conserved cards. If the market truly supports it, sellers will have no issue with this and these disclosures won't impact selling prices.

The worst part of this is that PWCC is in bed with Ebay, and have been for ages. Ebay will continue to support them, feature them everywhere...and ignore their questionable and downright shady practices.

[IMG]https://i.imgflip.com/30c2uk.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=pspa123;14646778]Vocabulary problem for sure. Conservation is intended to preserve an item from further deterioration. Few or none of the supposedly acceptable things they list are so intended. Man, if you're going to go to all that trouble, use words properly.[/QUOTE]


Yes, everyone just needs to remember that shellac always conserves, preserves and protects best.

[QUOTE=13goyankees13;14646970]i.e. alteration is only alteration if a TPA catches it?

If the marketplace supports conservation, test it out. For the next month, require all sellers to note how their cards were conserved. See if there is a significant difference in pricing between conserved and non-conserved cards. If the market truly supports it, sellers will have no issue with this and these disclosures won't impact selling prices.[/QUOTE]


If only it were this easy.

I have a question for PWCC if they are reading.

What makes you think you are the one who defines what is or is not an alteration for the rest of us?

That is your opinion. Nothing more. If a customer buys a card from you and then finds out afterwards that some 'conservation' has been performed on it and they dont agree with your definition or your opinion then guess what. You will be refunding them.

Your opinion of what is and is not alteration means nothing to Ebay and Paypal. I can promise you that.

99% of this goes away for you if you just put that information in the listing. You know that,right?

Alteration vs. Conservation Defined
 

[QUOTE=cking;14647056]I have a question for PWCC if they are reading.

What makes you think you are the one who defines what is or is not an alteration for the rest of us?

That is your opinion. Nothing more. If a customer buys a card from you and then finds out afterwards that some 'conservation' has been performed on it and they dont agree with your definition or your opinion then guess what. You will be refunding them.

Your opinion of what is and is not alteration means nothing to Ebay and Paypal. I can promise you that.

99% of this goes away for you if you just put that information in the listing. You know that,right?[/QUOTE]


I’m thinking PWCC already strategically positioned itself so that it would benefit most if the hobby were to come around to the definition PWCC wants everyone to use.

Knowing this hobby, I’m waiting for a troll army to magically appear to help set a definition that coincides with that position.

[QUOTE=MoreToppsPlease;14647099]I’m thinking PWCC already strategically positioned itself so that it would benefit most if the hobby were to come around to the definition PWCC wants everyone to use.

[/QUOTE]

This will never happen. Thats exactly why they do not put the information in the listings.

They know it will stop people from buying or make them bid lower.

[B]Another question for PWCC if they are reading. And you know you are.[/B]

You say its ok to perfrom 'conservation' on cards. I come to this conclusion based on your post in this thread.

You say its ok to sell cards that have had 'conservation' performed on them. I come to this conclusion because well.....you sell cards that have been 'conserved'

[B]If you truly stand behind your belief that this practice is acceptable then why is it NOT OK to put the information in your listing if a card has had 'conservation' performed on it.

You are saying its ok to do it. Be a man and put that information out there for potential bidders to see. After all, if its ok to do it, why are you hiding that you are doing it by not putting that info in the listings? Step up to the plate my man.[/B]

How can a multi million dollar company not even use the right term? Others have already pointed out the term they are looking for is restoration. Old cars are restored all the time. When they are sold the restorations performed are listed in detail and the sale price is affected by them.

They don’t put it in the auctions because their definition doesn’t fly with what PSA has deemed acceptable to grade.

Now that PWCC has become the moral authority in the hobby, I think it’s time for a comment from PSA. PSA cannot be okay with these alterations. It would destroy what they have built, and Collector’s Universe has little room for error.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14647207]They don’t put it in the auctions because their definition doesn’t fly with what PSA has deemed acceptable to grade.

Now that PWCC has become the moral authority in the hobby, I think it’s time for a comment from PSA. PSA cannot be okay with these alterations. It would destroy what they have built, and Collector’s Universe has little room for error.[/QUOTE]
PSA isn't going to say a damn thing. Say what you want about PWCC, but at least they are commenting on the situation. The grading companies are going to remain completely silent.

By the way, you are by far the most critical of PWCC on this board. Do you have PSA cards in your collection? If so, are you going to sell them all off?

[QUOTE=GatorPie;14647229]PSA isn't going to say a damn thing. Say what you want about PWCC, but at least they are commenting on the situation. The grading companies are going to remain completely silent.

By the way, you are by far the most critical of PWCC on this board. Do you have PSA cards in your collection? If so, are you going to sell them all off?[/QUOTE]
If you would bother to read the threads, you would have seen my stance here. I own PSA and BGS. I use both services, mostly for PC purposes, but plenty to resell also. Despite some rumblings, there has been no evidence that either company is in cahoots with the individuals altering cards. Once there is evidence presented, I will change my tune. I don't expect the grading companies to catch every single altered card. That is not realistic. But I do think they should do a better job than what they are currently doing.

I am glad you see me as the most critical. Someone has to do it, or these issues just fade away. I'm encouraged by what just a few members here have accomplished in less than 6 months.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14647251]If you would bother to read the threads, you would have seen my stance here. I own PSA and BGS. I use both services, mostly for PC purposes, but plenty to resell also. Despite some rumblings, there has been no evidence that either company is in cahoots with the individuals altering cards. Once there is evidence presented, I will change my tune. I don't expect the grading companies to catch every single altered card. That is not realistic. But I do think they should do a better job than what they are currently doing. [/QUOTE]
So what you're saying is that there is clear evidence that PWCC is in cahoots with those who are altering cards? I haven't seen that clear evidence presented yet.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I just think there are some unrealistic expectations about what is going to happen to PWCC. The board can (and has) done a service by pointing out evidence of trimmed cards so PWCC can take them down, which they have been.

And no, I don't work for PWCC, have no particular love for them or anything like that. And I don't blame anyone who chooses not to buy from them, that's a wonderful right as a consumer. But they are listing 15,000+ cards a month and show no sign of slowing down. They aren't going anywhere.

[QUOTE=GatorPie;14647266]So what you're saying is that there is clear evidence that PWCC is in cahoots with those who are altering cards? I haven't seen that clear evidence presented yet.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I just think there are some unrealistic expectations about what is going to happen to PWCC. The board can (and has) done a service by pointing out evidence of trimmed cards so PWCC can take them down, which they have been.

And no, I don't work for PWCC, have no particular love for them or anything like that. And I don't blame anyone who chooses not to buy from them, that's a wonderful right as a consumer. But they are listing 15,000+ cards a month and show no sign of slowing down. They aren't going anywhere.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say that. I said they are aware this Mantle is altered, and yet they are still selling it, and using their new Tenets to back themselves up.

Does anyone believe that Mantle is not altered?

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14647277]I didn't say that. I said they are aware this Mantle is altered, and yet they are still selling it, and using their new Tenets to back themselves up.

Does anyone believe that Mantle is not altered?[/QUOTE]
You're not wrong. That Mantle has been cleaned up, no question about it. And they aren't going to mention that in their listings, I can see where people wouldn't like that. I can certainly see how people would say they wouldn't buy from them anymore.

But other than that, what do you expect to happen? This is where I'm confused. A lot of people seem to think PWCC is going down, heading out of business, and Brent is going to be hauled away in an orange jump suit and shackles. I don't see it. They are going to keep selling thousands of cards of month and people are going to keep buying them.

[QUOTE=GatorPie;14647288]You're not wrong. That Mantle has been cleaned up, no question about it. And they aren't going to mention that in their listings, I can see where people wouldn't like that. I can certainly see how people would say they wouldn't buy from them anymore.

But other than that, what do you expect to happen? This is where I'm confused. A lot of people seem to think PWCC is going down, heading out of business, and Brent is going to be hauled away in an orange jump suit and shackles. I don't see it. They are going to keep selling thousands of cards of month and people are going to keep buying them.[/QUOTE]
I expect the right thing to happen. It may take years, but I have faith that something good will come from all this.

Had it not been for one individual at the end of November providing a tip on two altered Lebron Exquisites, we wouldn't be discussing any of this. An enormous amount of progress has been made, and there's more to come.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14647293]I expect the right thing to happen. It may take years, but I have faith that something good will come from all this.[/QUOTE]
Okay, but what's the right thing to happen? PWCC out of business?

I'm really not trying to bust your balls, just trying to understand the end game here. I admire the passion of the people on this board.

Something good has already come from all this - a number of trimmed cards have been pulled from auctions. And if the trimmers keep seeing that they can't get away with it, they will stop.

[QUOTE=GatorPie;14647297]Okay, but what's the right thing to happen? PWCC out of business?[/QUOTE]
Depends on what the truth is. At the end of the day, I care less about PWCC and more about the individuals doing the alterations. That ground work has already been done though. There's no controversy there. But there is controversy when PWCC decides they're going to redefine what an altered card is.

[QUOTE=PWCC Marketplace;14645659]PWCC will soon publish our Marketplace Tenets, which describes the rules of engagement for transacting on the PWCC Marketplace and the commitments and responsibilities of all parties involved. Among other things, the Tenets will describe what cards we will allow to be sold on our marketplace and will draw a distinction between cards that were altered and cards that were conserved. Cards that are proven altered through physical evidence are not allowed to be sold, while cards that are proven conserved are indeed allowed to be sold.

In an effort to define an enforceable PWCC policy, we want to open up the dialogue with the community to allow for feedback before our official Tenets are published. Acceptable forms of conservation exist in all collectibles markets, ranging from coins to comics to fine art, and we feel it’s time the trading card market better defines a stance on what is acceptable conservation. The following is a draft of our current understanding of majority opinion, and this is subject to edit.

[B]Conservation.[/B] PWCC believes conservation, as defined, to be healthy, sustainable, and supportive of the marketplace and the investors and collectors who participate. Assets that have been conserved can be sold on the PWCC Marketplace.

Conservation is defined as an act which returns an asset closer to its as-manufactured condition but does not otherwise enhance or artificially distance the asset beyond the as-manufactured status. An act which removes a foreign substance from an asset and does so in a way which doesn’t otherwise alter the condition of the as-manufactured product is usually considered acceptable and generally renders the asset worthy of professional grading. Dirt, glue, writing, wax and other foreign substances can be removed from an asset and the result is considered acceptable conservation, so long as the professional Third-Party Authenticators agree the asset is void of unnatural aspects induced as a result of the conservation. Lying flat a warped or bent region of a card (i.e. in a screw down holder), so long as it doesn’t disrupt the card’s natural properties, is generally considered acceptable conservation, whereas pressing a card and thereby changing its as-manufactured properties (i.e. thickness of the card stock) is generally not acceptable and may render the card altered. Laying flat a nonplanar corner, crease, or edge, so long as the card stock is not pressed to a state of artificial thickness, is typically acceptable so long as no other unnatural change to the as-manufactured card stock is discernable.

[B]Alteration.[/B] PWCC believes alteration, as defined, is damaging to the marketplace. Altered assets cannot be sold on the PWCC Marketplace unless this detail is disclosed during the sale.

Alteration includes any act which meaningfully renders a change to the as-manufactured qualities of the asset, outside of the normal wear and deterioration inherent to circulation. Any purposeful material addition or material removal to or from the as-manufactured asset, outside of normal wear or environmental degradation, is generally considered an alteration. Trimming, recoloring, autograph retracing, rebuilding of corners or other surfaces, swapping of patches, or any other action which distances a card from its as-manufactured attributes is considered an act of alteration. Altered cards which are stated as such in a transparent nature are permitted for sale on the Marketplace.

Alteration is only ever officially determined by the presence of physical evidence. Speculation is not considered evidence. Evidence of alteration can be determined in two different ways; either in technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator, or when digital content asserts beyond a reasonable doubt that an alteration took place (i.e. before and after photos of trimming, recoloring, etc).

Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. The best way to share feedback is to send me a direct email at [email]betsy@pwccmarketplace.com[/email]. I will come back onto this thread to gather feedback periodically, but won't be responding to comments actively. Thank you![/QUOTE]

"Conservation" vs. "Alteration"?

As I stated on another board this is more like an "Explanation" of "Defecation"

And Betsy, I wouldn't be responding to active comments either if I weren't that good at trying to explain the downright disgusting and nefarious practices your company appears to have been engaged in for quite some time now with this ridiculous, lame and poorly written excuse in an attempt to pacify and keep those almighty dollars flowing.

"For the love of money is the root of all evil."

Certainly doesn't seem to be anything to the contrary here.

Betsy, does PWCC plan on disclosing which cards have been ¨conserved¨

I would think if you want to be transparent to your customers, you would want them to have as much knowledge about a potential purchase as possible? No?

[QUOTE=Rooftop;14646950]All that to justify selling a 4.5 Mantle? Hope it was worth it.[/QUOTE]

In all likelihood this lame distinction will be used to justify much more than the Mantle. Legitimizing crease removal and pressed out corners justifies a whole lot of altered cards.

I think there are many layers to this problem. Many people are now asking PWCC to post which cards are conserved and which cards are altered. Do you guys really believe people at PWCC have the ability to tell you that? If these cards have somehow passed thorough the hands of the almighty graders at PSA or BGS then why would we assume that a glorified consignment shop is capable of such a task? I assure you that they do not, the only ability they have is slapping a HE sticker on a slab and getting 20% more for it after all that helps everyone get more money, and we consumers fall for it.

The only reason this has become an issue is the digital history that is being provided on numerous cards in the before and after state.

But who is really responsible for this? We can all be upset with those doing the alterations to cardboard and yes these people are smart enough not to sell on their own. They will continue to use outlets such as PWCC and Probstein to remain a ghost. But if more and more of these cards are unearthed with previous history and these consignment shops are forced to dole out refunds that hurt their bottom line maybe they will choose to do less business with those that they 100% know are the problem.

The biggest issue lies with the grading companies. This is who we turn to when we are in doubt whether a card is authentic or unaltered. We all pay a few for their expert opinion and assigned numerical grade which at times is the difference in 10s of thousands of dollars. Yet what we have all learned is that they dont know much more than the rest of us. You can't expect a grader who is making 50K a year to be better than a card alteration operation that is turning millions of dollars annually. They need to get better at their craft, but after nearly 20 years of submissions, and those submission numbers continue to grow at an unprecedented rate (as we have all waited to get our cards back longer than normal), and they continue to look to add (unqualified) staff, does anyone really believe this problem is going to get better?

Dolla, dolla bills!

Would be a shame if someone told the IRS about the vault

[QUOTE=runandgun;14647445]The biggest issue lies with the grading companies. This is who we turn to when we are in doubt whether a card is authentic or unaltered. We all pay a few for their expert opinion and assigned numerical grade which at times is the difference in 10s of thousands of dollars. Yet what we have all learned is that they dont know much more than the rest of us. You can't expect a grader who is making 50K a year to be better than a card alteration operation that is turning millions of dollars annually. They need to get better at their craft, but after nearly 20 years of submissions, and those submission numbers continue to grow at an unprecedented rate (as we have all waited to get our cards back longer than normal), and they continue to look to add (unqualified) staff, does anyone really believe this problem is going to get better?[/QUOTE]
Not with the current pricing and turnaround times, no. You can't expect things to be caught when a grader only has a few minutes with a card, no matter how good he is or how much he makes.

[QUOTE=runandgun;14647445]I think there are many layers to this problem. Many people are now asking PWCC to post which cards are conserved and which cards are altered. Do you guys really believe people at PWCC have the ability to tell you that?[/QUOTE]
Seeing as they are the ones who created this standard, yes.

[QUOTE=Soxfanguy;14647450]Would be a shame if someone told the IRS about the vault[/QUOTE]

Not a federal tax issue.

[QUOTE=Randy Shields;14647338]"Conservation" vs. "Alteration"?

As I stated on another board this is more like an "Explanation" of "Defecation"

And Betsy, I wouldn't be responding to active comments either if I weren't that good at trying to explain the downright disgusting and nefarious practices your company appears to have been engaged in for quite some time now with this ridiculous, lame and poorly written excuse in an attempt to pacify and keep those almighty dollars flowing.

"For the love of money is the root of all evil."

Certainly doesn't seem to be anything to the contrary here.[/QUOTE]

[youtube]GXE_n2q08Yw[/youtube]

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14647456]Seeing as they are the ones who created this standard, yes.[/QUOTE]

Its simply a deflection. Some semantics that they think we will buy. No one is ever going to post a "card has been altered" that is already in a slab. That would be ridiculous. I am sure it is a black eye to a grading company when history proves they made an egregious error.

It's like they channeled Imac in writing this

[QUOTE=runandgun;14647479]Its simply a deflection. Some semantics that they think we will buy. No one is ever going to post a "card has been altered" that is already in a slab. That would be ridiculous. I am sure it is a black eye to a grading company when history proves they made an egregious error.[/QUOTE]

Oh, they might do it a few times on in-house cards just to create a false track record they can point to down the road if they get into legal trouble. It creates the illusion they were proactive. In my opinion the true proactive measure -- discontinuing certain relationships -- is unlikely to happen.

PWCC came out with this strong statement defending "conservation" despite the fact that there is zero shortage of cards, even high end cards, which are not restored. This implies strongly to me that they are actively doing businesses with people who traffic in restored cards. They could very easily stay quiet or even say 'we don't want to sell restored cards' but no, they are trying to redefine words to give cover to a controversial practice not at all accepted by collectors.

What a ridiculous statement from PWCC.

[QUOTE=jlzinck;14647486]It's like they channeled Imac in writing this[/QUOTE]

Thanks for making me spray water everywhere