Great Video on Game Grading & Auction House Fraud--Parallels to Trading Cards
 

This works as a good primer for how grading and auction houses can work together to raise prices and work the market.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLFEh7V18A[/url]

(Not my video, btw)

Just watched myself. Great video

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Tagging this so I can watch it later.

Awesome, I'll bookmark, I've always wanted to learn how to grade cards.

Ten minutes into this video, it’s completely obvious that the same situation happened/is still happening in cards.

Grading companies and auction houses doing all they can to make collectibles more expensive with their moon bois all over social media pumping and shill bidding as hard as they can.

Thanks for finding this and posting it here.

Thanks for the link. I see many parallels between WATA Games and PSA. There is a lot of market manipulation that pushes the idea that PSA is the "best" when in fact, there's really not that much difference between them and any other major TPG. Values for PSA are largely driven by sustained slick insider exploitation--the manipulation of buyers--not by reality.

Everyone should watch at least the first 20 minutes.

Please watch 24:36 to 27:10

[url]https://youtu.be/rvLFEh7V18A?t=1476[/url]

Testimony by David Wilson of Collectors Comics ([URL="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvllaJtVO3hlWTd8IM2cTnw"]Comic Book Investments[/URL] on Youtube) that Jim Halperin (part-owner, founder of HA) puts his own items (comics) in Heritage Auctions and then shills them up. Pretty devastating if true.

Could this possibly explain Heritage's use of the "make the 'owner' an offer" and "buy it now" features on its website? Shill up an HA-owned item over time, create a false perception of value, then sell it directly to a real, unsuspecting buyer. Is this the usual modus operandi?

I'm thinking that maybe HA should have received a higher percentage of votes: [url]https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1472990[/url]

Sure hope the FBI is paying attention to this thread.

Okay, a small disclaimer this video is 52 mins. (I know, I know it's long) ....however....

[U]Every second watching it? WORTH IT.[/U]

Seriously, this maybe one of the most informative Youtube videos I've watched in a very long time.

Every collector should consider watching this video & sharing it.

Thank you for sharing this video with us!

So far I'm most impressed by all the pixel perfect clips they're showing from super mario bros lol

[QUOTE=GOCubsGo32;17601048]Okay, a small disclaimer this video is 52 mins. (I know, I know it's long) ....however....

[U]Every second watching it? WORTH IT.[/U]

Seriously, this maybe one of the most informative Youtube videos I've watched in a very long time.

Every collector should consider watching this video & sharing it.

Thank you for sharing this video with us![/QUOTE]

Yes, can this thread and/or the link to that video be stickied to this board?

Heritage is trash

173,744 views in less than 24 hours. This youtube video is in the process of going viral. Some very powerful and wealthy individuals (e.g. Halperin) are going to be really upset at the allegations. It wouldn't at all surprise me if the youtuber who published this video (Karl Jobst) gets de-platformed in the near future. Watch it while you still can.

Just a reminder that ¶21 of Heritage's "Terms and Conditions of Auction" declare the following:

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/XURzjRF.png[/IMG]
[URL="https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions.zx?view=terms"]https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions.zx?view=terms[/URL]

Seems pretty much a given that Fanatics will grade their own cards and open their own auction house given the kinds of people in charge.

[QUOTE=JRX;17601163]Seems pretty much a given that Fanatics will grade their own cards and open their own auction house given the kinds of people in charge.[/QUOTE]

Which is fine if everyone knows about it.

People should know grading was never what it was cracked up to be…not even close…in terms of $$$.

The guy creating this video is a pure game nerd!

His background music is the music in Mass Effect when your on the Normandy. Just thought everyone should know.

The coin grading example is probably the best cautionary tale for games and cards.

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;17601178]The guy creating this video is a pure game nerd!

His background music is the music in Mass Effect when your on the Normandy. Just thought everyone should know.[/QUOTE]

Amazing you would know this :doh:

[QUOTE=JRX;17601182]The coin grading example is probably the best cautionary tale for games and cards.[/QUOTE]

And tulips.

[QUOTE=Rooftop;17601197]Amazing you would know this :doh:[/QUOTE]

Every hardcore gamer should know this lol!

[QUOTE=superdan49;17601153]Just a reminder that ¶21 of Heritage's "Terms and Conditions of Auction" declare the following:

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/XURzjRF.png[/IMG]
[URL="https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions.zx?view=terms"]https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions.zx?view=terms[/URL][/QUOTE]SGC has the same disclaimer about those who may submit cards for grading.

Well I finished the video, its pretty much a given that wata and heritage is a massive scam.

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;17601178]The guy creating this video is a pure game nerd!



His background music is the music in Mass Effect when your on the Normandy. Just thought everyone should know.[/QUOTE]I came across his channel by watching his breakdowns of world record Super Mario speedruns. I didn't even know of such a thing at the time but the video was so well done. It's fascinating the skill involved and the glitches that have bern discovered. He does a great job of breaking down a complex topic.

He also has a great probabilistic breakdown of how certain Minecraft records must have been achieved through cheating (tool assisted runs while not indicated as such).



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[QUOTE=JRX;17601182]The coin grading example is probably the best cautionary tale for games and cards.[/QUOTE]Yes. I had never heard that story, but it sure seems much like we're seeing these days.

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[QUOTE=SmokeyJ;17601223]I came across his channel by watching his breakdowns of world record Super Mario speedruns. I didn't even know of such a thing at the time but the video was so well done. It's fascinating the skill involved and the glitches that have bern discovered. He does a great job of breaking down a complex topic.

He also has a great probabilistic breakdown of how certain Minecraft records must have been achieved through cheating (tool assisted runs while not indicated as such).



Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]Same haha I love his videos

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Now that I think about it, I think I have watched some of his speedrun videos. The voice was kind of familiar.

[QUOTE=JRX;17601247]Now that I think about it, I think I have watched some of his speedrun videos. The voice was kind of familiar.[/QUOTE]

Same. This took me on quite the youtube journey.

Thanks for link OP!

This is a great watch - thanks for posting the link!

If BODA is hiring, this guy should get an interview

Just finished it. My thoughts:
-This is damning for the video game industry and WATA, but won’t cripple it. With WATA under CU, I would imagine Nat et al have their folks on a tight leash
-This is more damning of the auction houses. Folks have speculated that this has happened and we all knew it, Vegas Dave has done numerous vids on it calling out the manipulation of the high end market, but this is the first concrete evidence of it around the 26 minute mark.
-What this does NOT mean is that grading is killing cards. Cards were saved by grading in the mid 2000s. Fraud was involved, but the concept was life support for the market. The comparison of institutional investors coming into coin markets in the 70s because of grading does not equate to modern times. Institutional folks didn’t jump into cards in 2020 because of grading. They jumped in because of potential returns. For that reason, the article is correct that high end markets are probably in the third quarter or fourth quarter of this magical bull run. Mid/low level markets with little to no speculation from institutional investors with sound mechanics will continue to operate well into the future

-auction houses must increase transparency by allowing bids to be seen even with masked IDs
-WATA needs a pop report
-the fact that the WATA guy who was a comic guy who all of the sudden started buying video games isn’t evidence of fraud much in itself. Getting on the ground level of a speculative bubble…anyone would want to do it. There are new trends emerging now that haven’t even hit the radar of this board let alone the masses that many folks are buying into today (including me) because they are in their infancy that folks previously had zero interest in.

Great Video on Game Grading & Auction House Fraud--Parallels to Trading Cards
 

Would love to investigate any major price spikes if recent history, a la Derek Jeter and the spike of his 1993 SP #279 PSA 9 to over $30,000 back in Mar-Apr of 2021.

So. Much. Manipulation.


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I think it was more the guy was buying up games because they were getting ready to manipulate the market.

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.....

Irrelevant, post this on the video game forum, if one exists. If you don't like graded cards then don't buy them. If you don't like auction houses then don't buy from them.

[QUOTE=ScooterMcRibs;17601409]Irrelevant, post this on the video game forum, if one exists. If you don't like graded cards then don't buy them. If you don't like auction houses then don't buy from them.[/QUOTE]

Did you even watch the video? Your post is terrible!! And I'm never one to call people out. Especially you saying that after multiple valued posters stating how much they liked this on first page.

The video draws direct ties to baseball cards on multiple levels in the video. I learned a lot that directly relates to cards.

Thank you for posting this. Jim has his fingers in everything.

Have been collecting/buying/selling sealed retro games for a minute, so this is old news to me

They are not even trying to hide it, just blatantly obvious market manipulation...although i am enjoying the rising tides, its likely going to hurt the mrkt long-term

My advice to anyone would be to sell into the market on anything sixth generation and back unless its actually rare/htf or a currently trending up ip

What prevents someone from just buying a machine to re-shrink wrap games. Seems like if there is enough money in it, someone would do it.

[QUOTE=JRX;17601771][B]What prevents someone from just buying a machine to re-shrink wrap games.[/B] Seems like if there is enough money in it, someone would do it.[/QUOTE]

Ethics

There are plenty of resealed games but they are generally easy to spot

Modern mtg boxes are showing up on Amazon resealed left and right, you can buy mtg shrinkwrap on etsy :p

[QUOTE=PumpnDumpling;17601787]Ethics

There are plenty of resealed games but they are generally easy to spot

Modern mtg boxes are showing up on Amazon resealed left and right, you can buy mtg shrinkwrap on etsy :p[/QUOTE]

It seems pretty apparent that the people running heritage and wata don't have ethics.

[QUOTE=ScooterMcRibs;17601409]Irrelevant, post this on the video game forum, if one exists. If you don't like graded cards then don't buy them. If you don't like auction houses then don't buy from them.[/QUOTE]


What if it’s the only option?


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[QUOTE=PumpnDumpling;17601787]Ethics

There are plenty of resealed games but they are generally easy to spot

Modern mtg boxes are showing up on Amazon resealed left and right, you can buy mtg shrinkwrap on etsy :p[/QUOTE]

Send the game box to baseball card exchange.

[QUOTE=pewe;17601802]What if it’s the only option?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


its not

Great Video on Game Grading & Auction House Fraud--Parallels to Trading Cards
 

[QUOTE=RustyDawg37;17601852]its not[/QUOTE]


What makes you say that?

It’s certainly the only reason I own any graded cards even though I value raw much more…

…and is the only reason I bought from Gouldin Auctions even though I find their user experience and high fees quite frustrating.


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excellent video.

The similarities between the video game market and the sports card market are striking.

[I]Anyone who collects anything of value should watch this video. I wouldn’t have a problem with this being posted in every section on Blowout. [/I] I’ve always avoided Heritage because of shenanigans like this, obviously it’s possible to encounter this on any platform, but it seems worse at Heritage. In general, when bidding/buying an item, you should try your best to have an idea of its value, or how much you are willing to pay… and don’t go over it. Don’t let shill bidding suck you in. Also, and this is the most important thing: only collect what you personally enjoy. The few times I’ve bought things for speculative reasons has always left me with an empty feeling.

Side notes: I enjoyed watching those Mario clips, and that Mass Effect music. I’m on my 3rd play through of the ME trilogy at the moment, this time on the Legendary Edition, and it’s still one of the best game series of all time.

[QUOTE=ScooterMcRibs;17601409]Irrelevant, post this on the video game forum, if one exists. If you don't like graded cards then don't buy them. If you don't like auction houses then don't buy from them.[/QUOTE]

I raised an eyebrow when you came into the [URL="https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=17585409&postcount=560"]PWCC thread[/URL] defending that mess, but now you're also coming in here and trying the same thing. Did you even watch the video? How can you defend that? You must have some serious skin in the game with the auction houses.

:doh:

Really interesting video. Thanks for sharing.

With the connection between Heritage and Wata well established in the video, it will be fun to follow the new paring of Collectors Universe (owner), Wata (grader) and Goldin Auctions (seller).

Makes you question the leadership of CU that purchases a company like WATA.

[QUOTE=Rooftop;17602631]Makes you question the leadership of CU that purchases a company like WATA.[/QUOTE]


It doesn’t inspire confidence….not that I am a video game guy, but just adds more doubt that any of this is legitimate.


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[QUOTE=NYRE2PECT;17602676]It doesn’t inspire confidence….not that I am a video game guy, but just adds more doubt that any of this is legitimate.
[/QUOTE]

Can’t wait for Fanatics to slab its own cards an eschew CU entirely.

Video was VERY interesting - thanks for posting OP!
I can see how a “collectible” can go from just humming along, [B]to news shattering record sales in just a few years, when you put the right players together[/B], and create a rapidly increasing artificial market ——- and the last big buyer before the music stops is in the hot seat, holding the ‘hot potato’ with no one to pass it to!
[B]
Same thing happened decades ago in the comic market - with the 1940 Superman Ring[/B]. Let’s just say it was temporarily worth more decades ago then it is right now!

It would be interesting if the guy that made this video next investigated the huge dollar sales of MJ Fleer rookies that took place last year and early this year. I wonder if he would find any similarities between the graded games situation and that.

[QUOTE=saraceno21;17603229]It would be interesting if the guy that made this video next investigated the huge dollar sales of MJ Fleer rookies that took place last year and early this year. I wonder if he would find any similarities between the graded games situation and that.[/QUOTE]

lol I seriously doubt Karl would know anything about that card even existing. The guy is a Goldeneye and Perfect Dark speed runner from Australia. He does happen to be one of the GOATs in Goldeneye.

[URL="https://rankings.the-elite.net/goldeneye/leaders"]https://rankings.the-elite.net/goldeneye/leaders[/URL]

What a video! 50 minutes flew by watching this and relating it to the sports card hobby we love. Never been into grading myself or worrying about buying graded and this video has always been a huge reason why. Collect because you are a collector not a speculator

That is a really great video. You can definitely find the parallels with sportscards. It is not much of a leap to think of the likes of Heritage, PWCC, PSA, etc all doing there part in inflating sportscard prices. Get a couple of 3rd party willing investors, done. After all, the owner of SGC and multiple senior PSA graders were shilling Mastro auctions back in the day. I would love a full expose on the full life cycle of the vintage graded card market. Raw purchase - trimmed - dedicated PSA grader - consignment - shill - final sale - hype. I feel bad for any legitimate collectors in the that high grade market. All of it is manipulated at some point, often multiple points.

[QUOTE=Scottish Punk;17603969]That is a really great video. You can definitely find the parallels with sportscards. It is not much of a leap to think of the likes of Heritage, PWCC, PSA, etc all doing there part in inflating sportscard prices. Get a couple of 3rd party willing investors, done. After all, the owner of SGC and multiple senior PSA graders were shilling Mastro auctions back in the day. I would love a full expose on the full life cycle of the vintage graded card market. Raw purchase - trimmed - dedicated PSA grader - consignment - shill - final sale - hype. I feel bad for any legitimate collectors in the that high grade market. All of it is manipulated at some point, often multiple points.[/QUOTE]

I know Ken Goldin has been around for a while and he’s active on here. Is it safe to assume he’s one of, if not the only, guy who runs an auction house and has any integrity left? All these other auction houses bragging about record-breaking sales, like what was spoken about in this video. Meanwhile Goldin Auctions keeps humming along and sometimes their auctions go for below what previous sales at other houses were

[QUOTE=Cardboard Dawg;17604065]I know Ken Goldin has been around for a while and he’s active on here. Is it safe to assume he’s one of, if not the only, guy who runs an auction house and has any integrity left? All these other auction houses bragging about record-breaking sales, like what was spoken about in this video. Meanwhile Goldin Auctions keeps humming along and sometimes their auctions go for below what previous sales at other houses were[/QUOTE]

Consistently money in this hobby year after year can’t happen without at least some corruption somewhere.

Unless you’re Topps making the cards…with a license. Or eBay.

[QUOTE=PumpnDumpling;17601732]Have been collecting/buying/selling sealed retro games for a minute, so this is old news to me

They are not even trying to hide it, just blatantly obvious market manipulation...although i am enjoying the rising tides, its likely going to hurt the mrkt long-term

My advice to anyone would be to sell into the market on anything sixth generation and back unless its actually rare/htf or a currently trending up ip[/QUOTE]

Totally. A good friend of mine is deep into retro game collecting. Has a huge following on instagram and was even recently interviewed for a game collecting documentary (look how cool I am, I know a popular retro gamer :doh:).

Anyway. He's been calling all this stuff out since 2019. Like the comment I'm quoting says. This is all very well-known and out in the open in the gaming community. But this video does a wonderful job of compiling it all into one place and making it super easy to watch / digest.

Sadly. The Kahn artist will likely continue on without issue.

Two big-ass threads on the same topic, referencing the OP video…

[url]http://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1429869892552044547[/url]

[url]http://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1429911378144399370[/url]

[QUOTE=salthill;17604451]Two big-ass threads on the same topic, referencing the OP video…

[url]http://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1429869892552044547[/url]

[url]http://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1429911378144399370[/url][/QUOTE]It sure seems like some key players in the vintage games market are trying to get out ahead of all of the price manipulation and inform others. Too bad the same wasn't done for TPGs of sports cards (with the exception of a [URL="https://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1767003&postcount=1"]Dennis Purdy article[/URL] published back in 1996). We have accepted far too much on blind faith and have not properly questioned their methodology.

Thank you for posting this video, and is very relevant to every collectible. It is really well done and compiles information in a helpful way. This is the type of investigation that we should expect from other "news" sources that just relay the sales of collectibles without looking into it further.

[QUOTE=Rooftop;17602631]Makes you question the leadership of CU that purchases a company like WATA.[/QUOTE]

I was more worried that the same people are behind CU and Goldin Auctions now for the very reasons this video pointed out. This should probably be illegal. Beckett used to do auctions too, is this still a thing?

After the video I feel the same as you also. Why would they buy this dirtbag company? Everyone still think the boom is all legit?

[QUOTE=ScooterMcRibs;17601409]Irrelevant, post this on the video game forum, if one exists. If you don't like graded cards then don't buy them. If you don't like auction houses then don't buy from them.[/QUOTE]

What a hot take. The video even began with a cartoon on people buying tulip bulbs. Not because they wanted to grow tulips, but because they wanted to make money selling the bulbs.

And as the video ran many parallels to that, including coins and the exact same market manipulation. Ironically enough, by the same players doing so to these games right now.

Just because it focused on video games, doesn't mean it was just about that segment. Just like the OP put in his title "Parallels to Trading Cards"

When these big auction houses, or consignment sellers, conspire to pump up the market, that forces every collector to have to pay more. It has nothing to do with avoiding auction houses.

When the press releases show the latest Tom Brady RC sale being over $3.1MIL at a Lelands auction. You dont think that brings up the value of the same, and like cards, on eBay auctions?

When you inflate the market, everyone has to pay more during the bubble. It doesn't matter where you spend your money. Just that money was spent elsewhere, and its all circular.

[QUOTE=Bambino22;17601442]Did you even watch the video? Your post is terrible!! And I'm never one to call people out. Especially you saying that after multiple valued posters stating how much they liked this on first page.

The video draws direct ties to baseball cards on multiple levels in the video. I learned a lot that directly relates to cards.[/QUOTE]

Exactly!

[QUOTE=Grid;17604796]What a hot take. The video even began with a cartoon on people buying tulip bulbs. Not because they wanted to grow tulips, but because they wanted to make money selling the bulbs.

And as the video ran many parallels to that, including coins and the exact same market manipulation. Ironically enough, by the same players doing so to these games right now.

Just because it focused on video games, doesn't mean it was just about that segment. Just like the OP put in his title "Parallels to Trading Cards"

[B]When these big auction houses, or consignment sellers, conspire to pump up the market, that forces every collector to have to pay more. It has nothing to do with avoiding auction houses. [/B]

When the press releases show the latest Tom Brady RC sale being over $3.1MIL at a Lelands auction. You dont think that brings up the value of the same, and like cards, on eBay auctions?

When you inflate the market, everyone has to pay more during the bubble. It doesn't matter where you spend your money. Just that money was spent elsewhere, and its all circular.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, and it’s not like most of the money stays in the hobby either.

Collectors don’t like paying ransom.

Great video. Exactly what's happened with cards; the record after record sales, the unholy alliance of PSA and Goldin, etc, etc.

Even if one loves cards and collecting, to participate in what's going on at the expensive end of the hobby makes one feel like a mark— or like a shower is needed. Collectors just have to hope something can catalyze a massive price correction.

Shocker that video was banned from the PSA boards, :doh:

I've been a subscriber to this channel for a while now and saw this video the other day. In just the first few minutes, I immediately thought of the parallels to sports card collecting. It seems the evidence for the manipulation of the graded vintage video game market (and other collectibles) is pretty damning.

The Wata games section is really messed up

Somehow, I have to fall in love with raw cards as I did with graded. I need to get out of the insanity of manipulation being revealed day after day.


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[QUOTE=NYRE2PECT;17605221]Somehow, I have to fall in love with raw cards as I did with graded. I need to get out of the insanity of manipulation being revealed day after day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

At the heart of it, the key to manipulating the market is identifying cards that are scarce enough where your bidding isn't just a drop in the bucket. Grading is a favorite of manipulators because it creates scarcity out of cards that aren't actually that hard to find and the high grades selling for a bunch of money drags up the price of low grades/raw cards as well.

The hobby cooling off on grading would hurt manipulators since the it'd be too difficult to run up the 89 UD Griffeys of the world but they'd just turn more of their attention to rarer raw Bowman parallels and older vintage. I don't think it's possible to shake the market manipulation with how much money is in this hobby. It'd require an SEC-like governing body, which has a zero percent chance of happening.

[QUOTE=NYRE2PECT;17605221]Somehow, I have to fall in love with raw cards as I did with graded. I need to get out of the insanity of manipulation being revealed day after day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]They convinced ALL of us that if it's not in a TPG holder, then something must be wrong with it. It was a masterful stroke of psychological reprogramming.

We'll all never know what prices would look like, without the nefarious influence of forces like the AHs and PSA, WATA, fake data points, etc. In other words, without all the steroids.

That video is wild— the WATA CEO saying employees can't grade or sell games, and yet that whole Carolina Collection was a deal between two company insiders, graded by the company and sold by Heritage. Same type of stuff happens in cards every day.

It puts collectors in a terrible position; if we do what we love and collect, we are laying down with dogs and getting fleas, serving ourselves up as the grist in the profit mill for the likes of PSA, Goldin, Heritage, etc.

The coin bubble part of the video piece was very enlightening as well: Heritage contributing to a consumer redress fund back then. As was the part where that comic collector spoke to what the Heritage guy does, fake-selling pieces of his collection through his own AH.

Very informative piece. One wonders why so many mainstream media outlets merely parrot and trumpet the hype, instead of digging beneath the self-serving quotes of the profiteers. I suppose it is just laziness. But bravo to the guy who did that video.

Perhaps it's best for a collector to abstain in a marketplace so rife with manipulation, and be happy with what one has. Sit back and wait for something to give— perhaps for example the eBay/PWCC rift was the former creating distance before a hammer drops on the latter. Maybe that's the first domino. There is a lot of money, perhaps lots of fake money/fake sales, in the hobby, and so we can hope if Uncle Sam swoops in at some point, it will cause the roaches to scatter and seek the next unregulated market to infest. Until then, we'll just keep seeing things like the unholy merger of a TPG and AH. Legal, sure. But conflict of interest-- also sure.