Roger Maris HOF
 

Im sure this has been brought up before...But,why isnt Maris in the hall of fame?Makes no sense

1 epic season and another great season is not enough. There are certain names that are will live on in baseball like Maris, Larsen, Bobby Thompson, and Tommy John. Of those players, Tommy John should be the one in for his stats and his relevant name in the hobby with his surgery.

Denny McLain is another name that is similar to Maris. Had maybe one of the greatest pitching seasons in MLB history with 31 wins, getting both the Cy Young and MVP. Followed that up with another Cy Young.

[QUOTE=katho;19817609]Im sure this has been brought up before...But,why isnt Maris in the hall of fame?Makes no sense[/QUOTE]

Same career WAR as Chili Davis.

Didn't do enough in his entire career.

Peak seasons were great, though.

[QUOTE=hammertime;19817622]Same career WAR as Chili Davis.[/QUOTE]
And just shy of Baines, per Baseball Ref, 38.8 v. 38.3

he should be!

While I don't think he did enough to be in the hall, his legend lives on here in Fargo.

My grandpa worked with Roger's dad for a few years before Rudy retired. My aunt has a picture of Roger, Rudy, My grandpa, and my father when he was in 1st or 2nd grade. Pretty cool...to me anways.

Just not on the same level as legends like Freddie Lindstrom, Ross Youngs, Ray Schalk and Harold Baines

It makes a lot of sense why he is not in.

Higher WAR then Harold, still not a HOFer

Willie Randolph pisses over all these guys in WAR. and I think Giancarlo Stanton just passed Brett Gardner. WAR is fun.

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By the numbers it will never show he deserves to be in... However you can't tell the story of baseball without Roger Maris and because of this I wouldn't have a problem with him being elected one day.... Simple opinion

I know there has to be players that were inducted with similar stats as Rogers.Im going to go look them up....Thanks for all the answers and FWIW I think Denny Mcclain should have been inducted also

They should change the name from Hall of Fame to Hall of Stats since that's all that matters.

That said. His stats weren't good enough.

It is kinda wild when you look at his career numbers. That one year just explodes off the page.

[QUOTE=katho;19817609]Im sure this has been brought up before...But,why isnt Maris in the hall of fame?Makes no sense[/QUOTE]

It is surprising he hasn’t made it. When he was still alive, Mickey Mantle was a pretty big Maris advocate. But Maris didn’t appear on a Veteran’s Committee ballot until 1994 and the Mick would be gone a year later. With Hack Wilson being in the Hall of Fame I always assumed Maris was going to be a shoo-in. Wilson got in because he owned the single season RBI record while Maris owned the most important single season record. 40 years ago, it seemed obvious the single season HR holder was also getting in. Of all candidates before Maris, only 1 with 40%+ of the BBWAA vote hasn't gotten in & only 1 with a top 5 finish hasn't. (Now there are 6) He’s one of a very small list of players who got 40%+ on the BBWAA ballot not to eventually make it…yet.

[img] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GjnUO2eWEAA-aZW?format=png&name=240x240[/img]

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[QUOTE=Onions;19817656]While I don't think he did enough to be in the hall, his legend lives on here in Fargo.

My grandpa worked with Roger's dad for a few years before Rudy retired. My aunt has a picture of Roger, Rudy, My grandpa, and my father when he was in 1st or 2nd grade. Pretty cool...to me anways.[/QUOTE]

I was excited to see the Roger Maris Museum when I moved into the area. I put the address into Google but was saddened when I saw they built a mall on top of where it once was.

Later, while shopping at said mall, I realized that it's actually in the mall next to a nail salon and a Best Buy. It's small but nicely done.

[QUOTE=ottobord;19817699]Higher WAR then Harold, still not a HOFer[/QUOTE]

HOF voters don't care about WAR.

[QUOTE=rats60;19817866]HOF voters don't care about WAR.[/QUOTE]

Not true at all. The only reason certain players got voted in was because of WAR -- Mike Mussina, Scott Rolen, Joe Mauer, and Todd Helton.

On the flip side, Fred McGriff didn't get voted in because of his relatively low WAR.

He absolutely belongs in the hall of fame. He did something notable. It made him famous. That should be the parameter.

But the hall of fame isn't actually the hall of fame, it's the lifetime achievement award. Which is what they should call it.

[QUOTE=Blamo;19817917]He absolutely belongs in the hall of fame. He did something notable. It made him famous. That should be the parameter.

But the hall of fame isn't actually the hall of fame, it's the lifetime achievement award. Which is what they should call it.[/QUOTE]

Maris along with other famous baseball moments are represented well in the museum, just not in the hall of plaques. Interesting though most people are shocked to find that Maris isn't a Hofer.

Okay, it makes little sense to respond to a "why isn't Maris in the Hall of Fame" by falling back on WAR, which wasn't a thing when Maris was around.

Yes, he had the two other-worldly seasons, and was solid in a few more. But he was largely cooked by the time he hit 30. As such, his career numbers fall short: 1300 hits / 275 home runs / 850 RBIs (not to mention a .260 batting average), only four All-Star seasons... From that perspective, he's basically Raul Mondesi.

He also hit the HOF ballot at a terrible time - literally on the same one as Mickey Mantle (and 15 others who've now been sent to Cooperstown). His numbers pale in comparison to Mantle, and even players such as Eddie Matthews, who took five turns to get the call.

(I also can't speak about the relationship with the media. He was famously not as outgoing as Mantle. Don't know if there was acrimony).

It's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but I'm sort of reminded of Denny McClain the pitcher. He had two years as the greatest pitcher on the planet, but such a short career.

He'll, of course, always have a spot in baseball lore. Just like so many others. Hall of very good. Hall of Legends. And that should be good enough.

Maris was basically a one-year wonder.

Well, he had maybe a three-year stretch of being an elite slugger. But if you take away his ‘61 season, then nobody even knows who he is.


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there are some clowns in the hobby that think Aaron Judge is the single season Home Run King because he hit 62 home runs in one season.

[QUOTE=ThoseBackPages;19818014]there are some clowns in the hobby that think Aaron Judge is the single season Home Run King because he hit 62 home runs in one season.[/QUOTE]how great is that?

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[QUOTE=ThoseBackPages;19818014]there are some clowns in the hobby that think Aaron Judge is the single season Home Run King because he hit 62 home runs in one season.[/QUOTE]

I guess I am a clown then.

:flex:

[QUOTE=ThoseBackPages;19818014]there are some clowns in the hobby that think Aaron Judge is the single season Home Run King because he hit 62 home runs in one season.[/QUOTE]

And who think Judge is already a first ballot HOF inductee because of that and 2 awesome MVP seasons. Maris' case should open their eyes... he was he actual Home Run King, won 2 MVPs, and 3 World Series, and isn't in. Because as mentioned above, the HOF is mostly about lifetime stats, and Maris didn't play long enough.

If I had a vote I'd vote for Maris, Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly. All were iconic players who were among the best for a substantial but relatively brief period. There are a number of less-deserving players in the Hall.

[QUOTE=fabiani12333;19817870]Not true at all. The only reason certain players got voted in was because of WAR -- Mike Mussina, Scott Rolen, Joe Mauer, and Todd Helton.

On the flip side, Fred McGriff didn't get voted in because of his relatively low WAR.[/QUOTE]

False

Ichiro 60 WAR 99.7%
Bobby Abreu 60.2 WAR 19.5%
Mark Buehrle 59.1 WAR 11.4%

Clearly WAR doesn't matter.

[QUOTE=Handsome Wes;19817996]Okay, it makes little sense to respond to a "why isn't Maris in the Hall of Fame" by falling back on WAR, which wasn't a thing when Maris was around.

Yes, he had the two other-worldly seasons, and was solid in a few more. But [B]he was largely cooked by the time he hit 30[/B]. As such, his career numbers fall short: 1300 hits / 275 home runs / 850 RBIs (not to mention a .260 batting average), only four All-Star seasons... From that perspective, he's basically Raul Mondesi.

He also hit the HOF ballot at a terrible time - literally on the same one as Mickey Mantle (and 15 others who've now been sent to Cooperstown). His numbers pale in comparison to Mantle, and even players such as Eddie Matthews, who took five turns to get the call.

(I also can't speak about the relationship with the media. He was famously not as outgoing as Mantle. Don't know if there was acrimony).

It's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but I'm sort of reminded of Denny McClain the pitcher. He had two years as the greatest pitcher on the planet, but such a short career.

He'll, of course, always have a spot in baseball lore. Just like so many others. Hall of very good. Hall of Legends. And that should be good enough.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like Mike Trout.

[QUOTE=ThoseBackPages;19818014]there are some clowns in the hobby that think Aaron Judge is the single season Home Run King because he hit 62 home runs in one season.[/QUOTE]

There are also those that discount players from the 90s because of PEDs not realizing they were being used since the early days of baseball.

[QUOTE=Natsfan32;19818118]If I had a vote I'd vote for Maris, Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly. All were iconic players who were among the best for a substantial but relatively brief period. There are a number of less-deserving players in the Hall.[/QUOTE]

That’s why it’s meaningless. There’s no rhyme or reason to it

[QUOTE=xDomePatrolx;19818192]There are also those that discount players from the 90s because of PEDs not realizing they were being used since the early days of baseball.[/QUOTE]

thats true.

those people also tend to have a holier than thou attitude which is unfortunate as Baseball is for our entertainment.

[QUOTE=rats60;19818140]False

Ichiro 60 WAR 99.7%
Bobby Abreu 60.2 WAR 19.5%
Mark Buehrle 59.1 WAR 11.4%

Clearly WAR doesn't matter.[/QUOTE]

You have to compare players from the same position. You also have to factor in peak WAR along with career WAR -- JAWS does that.

Ichiro is a unique case, as he started his MLB career later due to first being a professional in Japan. Plus, he had 3,000 hits, which makes a player an automatic Hall of Famer -- e.g., Craig Biggio.

JAWS positional ranking:

Ichiro: 17 (three spots below average)
Abreu: 22
Buehrle: 79

Ichiro has an above-average WAR7.

Mike Mussina, Scott Rolen, Joe Mauer and Todd Helton are all above average in JAWS score -- McGriff is below average.

[QUOTE=hxcmilkshake;19818027]how great is that?

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[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/55/42/b7/5542b73ae9b3078a56953fa151d253f4.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=ThoseBackPages;19818202]thats true.

those people also tend to have a holier than thou attitude which is unfortunate as Baseball is for our entertainment.[/QUOTE]

yeah, and for those keeping score at home, the PED players don't get in because their numbers are artificially inflated, but the non-PED players don't get in because their numbers weren't as good as those whose numbers were artificially inflated.

[QUOTE=Handsome Wes;19818299]yeah, and for those keeping score at home, the PED players don't get in because their numbers are artificially inflated, but the non-PED players don't get in because their numbers weren't as good as those whose numbers were artificially inflated.[/QUOTE]

I’ve always felt this way too

[QUOTE=Handsome Wes;19818299]yeah, and for those keeping score at home, the PED players don't get in because their numbers are artificially inflated, but the non-PED players don't get in because their numbers weren't as good as those whose numbers were artificially inflated.[/QUOTE]"non-PED"

:cry:

That's rich.

He absolutely should be in. It’s the Hall of FAME not the Hall of Stats or the Hall of WAR. Nobody’s making a movie about Harold Baines.

Excuse the ignorance, but just to clarify, does this mean the only reason I know Roger Maris is because of that 61 HR record?


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The 10 year minimum requirement implies that the Hall of Fame is very much about lifetime achievement. Maris' career isn't even close. A single season record, however historical, does not qualify him. He had several very good seasons as well, but for his career, not close.

[QUOTE=everwake;19817843]I was excited to see the Roger Maris Museum when I moved into the area. I put the address into Google but was saddened when I saw they built a mall on top of where it once was.

Later, while shopping at said mall, I realized that it's actually in the mall next to a nail salon and a Best Buy. It's small but nicely done.[/QUOTE]

There was a card shop in that wing many years ago. Sadly, his MVP trophy and Hickok Belt were stolen from the museum in 2016. The thieves were eventually caught, but they had melted the trophy down and cut the belt in half.

Welcome to the frozen tundra!

Maris should not be in.

With that said, it is so ridiculous for people to use WAR as a tool for gauging whether a player should or should not be in the hall of fame. People use the numerical value of WAR and justify whoever have the higher WAR must be the better player.

1973 Bobby Grich [B]8.3 WAR[/B]

.251 BA 12 HR 50 RBI's .373 OBA .387 SLG .760 OPS

2012 Miguel Cabrera [B]7.1 WAR[/B]

.330 BA 44 HR 139 RBI's .393 OBA .606 SLG .999 OPS *1st Triple Crown in 45 years*

If you go by WAR....clearly Bobby Grich had the better season and was the better player.

[QUOTE=49ersSF;19818522]Maris should not be in.

With that said, it is so ridiculous for people to use WAR as a tool for gauging whether a player should or should not be in the hall of fame. People use the numerical value of WAR and justify whoever have the higher WAR must be the better player.

1973 Bobby Grich [B]8.3 WAR[/B]

.251 BA 12 HR 50 RBI's .373 OBA .387 SLG .760 OPS

2012 Miguel Cabrera [B]7.1 WAR[/B]

.330 BA 44 HR 139 RBI's .393 OBA .606 SLG .999 OPS *1st Triple Crown in 45 years*

If you go by WAR....clearly Bobby Grich had the better season and was the better player.[/QUOTE]

You're using an extreme example. Grich's very high WAR that season is due to his extremely-high dWAR -- 4.0. Defensive ratings prior to the 2000s are not reliable -- they are guesstimations.

As for Cabrera's 2012 WAR being only 7.1 bWAR -- even though he won the so-called prestigious Triple Crown Award, it wasn't even his best offensive season. He'd follow it up with even a better season in 2013, with a much higher BA, OBP and SLG%. If you go by RE24 and WPA, his 2013 season blows his 2012 season out of the water.

Only oWAR should ever be used imo.

[QUOTE=Noles939913;19818380]Nobody’s making a movie about Harold Baines.[/QUOTE]
Is there anything from the 60's that hasn't gotten a movie? It isn't a high bar.

[QUOTE=volblorx8634;19818393]Excuse the ignorance, but just to clarify, does this mean the only reason I know Roger Maris is because of that 61 HR record?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Pretty much, he played on winning teams that helps too. Bobby Murcer had a similar career with no huge year. We don't hear anything about him

[QUOTE=fabiani12333;19818591]You're using an extreme example. Grich's very high WAR that season is due to his extremely-high dWAR -- 4.0. Defensive ratings prior to the 2000s are not reliable -- they are guesstimations.

As for Cabrera's 2012 WAR being only 7.1 bWAR -- even though he won the so-called prestigious Triple Crown Award, it wasn't even his best offensive season. He'd follow it up with even a better season in 2013, with a much higher BA, OBP and SLG%. If you go by RE24 and WPA, his 2013 season blows his 2012 season out of the water.[/QUOTE]

WAR makes Grich looks better than Maz and Aparicio. What imperfection accounts for that?

[QUOTE=TBTC Baseball;19818815]Is there anything from the 60's that hasn't gotten a movie? It isn't a high bar.[/QUOTE]

Well yeah the 1960s was an interesting time.

It is the Hall of "FAME".

Is Maris not famous ?

Did Maris not hold one of the most hallowed records in all of sports ?

Baseball and the fans deserve so see FAMOUS ballplayers in the Hall, no ?

Always exceptions to the general rule - this is one of them.

The case for Roger Maris isn’t about career totals or WAR. It’s about narrative. He won back to back MVPs, he held the all-time single season HR record for decades, and he was one of the best players on one of the best teams in history. Frankly, it’s a pretty easy case.

He’s a very normal Veterans Committee selection. He was every bit as great as most of the recent Vet Committee selections: Dave Parker, Dick Allen, Tony Oliva, Minnie Minoso, Gil Hodges, etc

And his narrative is stronger than all of those players except maybe Gil Hodges and maybe Minnie Minoso.

[QUOTE=Above the Rim;19818915]It is the Hall of "FAME".

Is Maris not famous ?

Did Maris not hold one of the most hallowed records in all of sports ?

Baseball and the fans deserve so see FAMOUS ballplayers in the Hall, no ?

Always exceptions to the general rule - this is one of them.[/QUOTE]


You're right, Canseco needs to be rushed to the Hall, NOW!

Ok, sure. Probably better choice than Harold Baines. Oh, but wait, the PED's, er, nevermind.

[QUOTE=Noles939913;19818380]He absolutely should be in. It’s the Hall of FAME not the Hall of Stats or the Hall of WAR. Nobody’s making a movie about Harold Baines.[/QUOTE]

They made a movie about Jim Morris, should he be in the HOF?

[QUOTE=Above the Rim;19819072]Ok, sure. Probably better choice than Harold Baines. Oh, but wait, the PED's, er, nevermind.[/QUOTE]

[I]It is the Hall of "FAME".[/I] It's not he Hall of the Unroided.

Is [s]Maris[/s] Canseco not famous ?

[QUOTE=Above the Rim;19818915]It is the Hall of "FAME".[/QUOTE]

Your words, not mine. Just two famous dudes squaring off.


[img]https://i.imgur.com/Yfw5kY6.jpg[/img]

comp---gale sayers, maybe?

[QUOTE=bigdog2003;19819081]They made a movie about Jim Morris, should he be in the HOF?[/QUOTE]

Yeah shut up. Was Morris a 2x MVP who once held the HR record? Didnt think so.

If you are comparing Maris to a running back I'd say Barry Foster would be the best comp.

[QUOTE=Donkaylove;19819130]comp---gale sayers, maybe?[/QUOTE]

Tough to translate Football to Baseball but more like Kurt Warner.

Terrell Davis is the best comparison to Roger Maris if you ask me and guess what he is in the Hall!
But you can't compare football to baseball.
We all know Lawrence Taylor was on coke/steroids and who knows what else every game and he was elected first ballot. Tom Brady will get in when he clearly cheated with the deflate balls stuff.. If that was baseball he would get black balled. Football puts the best players in period.. Baseball voters are a bunch of geeks who don't even know how to throw a baseball.

Carlos Beltran would already be in if it wasnt for the trash can incident. He was then 5th outfielder who didnt even play and they hold it against him.

Ive really lost my respect for the honor of baseball hall of fame of the last 10 years. Many guys elected did the same thing guys are being held out for....

[QUOTE=jeff152380;19819229]Terrell Davis is the best comparison to Roger Maris if you ask me and guess what he is in the Hall!
But you can't compare football to baseball.
We all know Lawrence Taylor was on coke/steroids and who knows what else every game and he was elected first ballot. Tom Brady will get in when he clearly cheated with the deflate balls stuff.. If that was baseball he would get black balled. Football puts the best players in period.. Baseball voters are a bunch of geeks who don't even know how to throw a baseball.

Carlos Beltran would already be in if it wasnt for the trash can incident. He was then 5th outfielder who didnt even play and they hold it against him.

Ive really lost my respect for the honor of baseball hall of fame of the last 10 years. Many guys elected did the same thing guys are being held out for....[/QUOTE]I'm in favor of putting them all in, including Beltran, but don't downplay his involvement. He was the ringleader of the trash can incident.

[url]https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/1600638/2020/02/11/details-emerge-about-carlos-beltrans-role-in-the-2017-astros-clubhouse-and-the-teams-sign-stealing-scheme/[/url]

When comparing Terrell Davis or Gale Sayers to Maris. Every single season TD and Sayers played healthy (60%+ of their career) they were elite. There was no random huge season mixed in mostly with subpar seasons.

Maris was a mediocre player who had only 2 seasons that would be worthy of mention. Outside of those 2 seasons, he is nearly identical to Joe Pepitone.

first ballot lol


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[QUOTE=49ersSF;19819309]When comparing Terrell Davis or Gale Sayers to Maris. Every single season TD and Sayers played healthy (60%+ of their career) they were elite. There was no random huge season mixed in mostly with subpar seasons.

Maris was a mediocre player who had only 2 seasons that would be worthy of mention. Outside of those 2 seasons, he is nearly identical to Joe Pepitone.[/QUOTE]

Well that’s because TD was worthless outside of 4 seasons.

[QUOTE=jeff152380;19819229]Terrell Davis is the best comparison to Roger Maris if you ask me and guess what he is in the Hall!
But you can't compare football to baseball.
We all know Lawrence Taylor was on coke/steroids and who knows what else every game and he was elected first ballot. [B]Tom Brady will get in when he clearly cheated with the deflate balls stuff[/B].. If that was baseball he would get black balled. Football puts the best players in period.. Baseball voters are a bunch of geeks who don't even know how to throw a baseball.

Carlos Beltran would already be in if it wasnt for the trash can incident. He was then 5th outfielder who didnt even play and they hold it against him.

Ive really lost my respect for the honor of baseball hall of fame of the last 10 years. Many guys elected did the same thing guys are being held out for....[/QUOTE]

No he didn't.

WAR is a lame stat to hang your hat on. Fun fact, if you like at Trout's stats minus WAR his career looks a lot different.

[QUOTE=Gem10collection;19819507]WAR is a lame stat to hang your hat on. Fun fact, if you like at Trout's stats minus WAR his career looks a lot different.[/QUOTE]Maybe if you don't understand baseball and its stats. :doh:

Edit: I just looked at his stats to see what insanity you are talking about, and my reaction was "GEEZ that's a lot of black ink!" Thanks for solidifying Trout's greatness for me by causing me to take another look at his stats.

Ironically, WAR is made for people like you who are incapable of looking at baseball stats and appropriately analyzing them yourself. :)!

[QUOTE=Noles939913;19818905]Well yeah the 1960s was an interesting time.[/QUOTE]
It is mythologized.

[QUOTE=49ersSF;19819309]When comparing Terrell Davis or Gale Sayers to Maris. Every single season TD and Sayers played healthy (60%+ of their career) they were elite. There was no random huge season mixed in mostly with subpar seasons.

Maris was a mediocre player who had only 2 seasons that would be worthy of mention. Outside of those 2 seasons, he is nearly identical to Joe Pepitone.[/QUOTE]

Maris had more than 2 seasons. He had 2 MVP seasons on par with most anyone and then he had several other good/great seasons. He was also huge in the ‘67 World Series.

Either way, he’s every bit as good and more accomplished than most of the Veterans Committee selections.

True about the '67 WS, but he was like Aaron Judge in the '68 Series for St. Louis and other than in the '60 loss to Pittsburgh, Maris never hit well for the Yankees in the postseason, either.

In the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, they have a special category for significant recordings from artists who didn't necessarily have the full career's worth of accomplishments to merit regular induction, and they could certainly do that in baseball, by celebrating particular seasons (or even single game or consecutive game feats) from players who don't have the overall numbers/longevity for standard induction.

[QUOTE=Noles939913;19819190]Yeah shut up. Was Morris a 2x MVP who once held the HR record? Didnt think so.[/QUOTE]

Somebody is salty

[QUOTE=Onions;19818449]There was a card shop in that wing many years ago. Sadly, his MVP trophy and Hickok Belt were stolen from the museum in 2016. The thieves were eventually caught, but they had melted the trophy down and cut the belt in half.

Welcome to the frozen tundra![/QUOTE]

Treasure Island was the card shop. I remember it from the 80s before they remodeled it into a bigger space in the 90s.

[QUOTE=bigdog2003;19819554]Somebody is salty[/QUOTE]

You’re comparing Roger Maris to a guy who pitched 15 innings…

[QUOTE=Noles939913;19819766]You’re comparing Roger Maris to a guy who pitched 15 innings…[/QUOTE]

Do they or do they not both have movies about them?

I don’t see where the Maris stats are HOF worthy. Sure he has the 2 MVP’s, but look at the margin he won them by. Not like he was so much more dominant than the other players in the league.

I get that 61 has a special place for a lot of fans, but hitting 61 in a season doesn’t change what was overall a mediocre career. Take out 60-61 seasons where he hit 100 HR’s, and he only hit an average of 17.5 a season for a year other 10 seasons.

Just my opinion. I don’t mean any harm or anything.