Which will be better National Treasures or Definitive Collection?
 

NT has pretty much been the top dog in Football the last several years not counting Flawless. This year Topps is coming out with Definitive or going out i should say. They could be going out with a bang. A little higher price point per box but about the same per case as NT. Which product do you think will be better? Thoughts, opinions?

Simple logic would say NT. A brand with longevity and will be moving forward or a one and done brand.

I take NT all day.

I know Topps loses their license after this year but wont they still be able to make cards like Panini does in other sports like immaculate baseball NT baseball etc ? People say they dont like cards as much without the professional jerseys on them but that doesnt seem to slow down the sales very much.

It's Definitively Definitive Collection and it's not close.... Our Panini rep. even thinks Definitive Collection is unlike any high-end product ever released.

I'm not even sure NT will be on par with [B][I]Diamond[/I][/B], much less Definitive Collection.

With Diamond and D.C., Topps will be executing this hobby's ultimate microphone drop.

[QUOTE=Splendid;10489972]It's Definitively Definitive Collection and it's not close.... Our Panini rep. even thinks Definitive Collection is unlike any high-end product ever released.

I'm not even sure NT will be on par with [B][I]Diamond[/I][/B], much less Definitive Collection.

With Diamond and D.C., Topps will be executing this hobby's ultimate microphone drop.[/QUOTE]
This post couldn't sound more like an advertisement if it tried.

I like what Definitive seems to be offering, but I obviously can't say much else until I see the checklist and how breaks are going.

Whatever has on card autos has my vote. I never understood why they put sticker autos in NT.

Definitive preview plz

[QUOTE=Grza;10490272]Definitive preview plz[/QUOTE]

This is all i could come up with. The product is set to be released i believe Feb 24 or 26.


[url=http://www.beckett.com/news/2015/09/2015-topps-definitive-collection-football-cards/]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Football Cards First Look - Beckett News[/url]

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;10490321]This is all i could come up with. The product is set to be released i believe Feb 24 or 26.


[url=http://www.beckett.com/news/2015/09/2015-topps-definitive-collection-football-cards/]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Football Cards First Look - Beckett News[/url][/QUOTE]

Relic Cards

Definitive Helmet Collection cards bypass the regular jersey. Limited to ten first round picks from the 2015 draft, these cards have a piece of the outer shell of a helmet embedded in them. The pieces come from the logo portion of the helmet. Blue (/4) parallels use chin strap buckles.

These actually sound pretty cool, curious to see what they look like.

If its around NTs price point,it should be good. Looks like Paradigm but they got it right.

[QUOTE=BirdLaw;10490143]This post couldn't sound more like an advertisement if it tried.

I like what Definitive seems to be offering, but I obviously can't say much else until I see the checklist and how breaks are going.[/QUOTE]

Geez.... Not advertising, just giving my opinion.

I'd stick with NT. NT will maintain hobby value no matter what. In 4-5 years people will say, what is Definitive Collection? Just my opinion.

[QUOTE=IowaCubs1;10490773]I'd stick with NT. NT will maintain hobby value no matter what. In 4-5 years people will say, what is Definitive Collection? Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this! Out of site out of mind. Even if Topps makes non-logo stuff it still wont be mainstream. I remember when SP Authentic was THE rookie card to own. Now not so much. And they are still producing that.

Perfect example is Topps Gold Label. It was the cats-ass when it dropped in 98. Everyone loved the super premium look and feel. Singles of top rookies were selling for $25 for BASE cards. Once they stopped making it in 2000 people slowly stopped searching for singles and within a year or two inserts/autos/base were selling for pennies on the dollar compared to other higher end sets that stayed fairly popular.

[QUOTE=Grid;10490847]I agree with this! Out of site out of mind. Even if Topps makes non-logo stuff it still wont be mainstream. I remember when SP Authentic was THE rookie card to own. Now not so much. And they are still producing that.

Perfect example is Topps Gold Label. It was the cats-ass when it dropped in 98. Everyone loved the super premium look and feel. Singles of top rookies were selling for $25 for BASE cards. Once they stopped making it in 2000 people slowly stopped searching for singles and within a year or two inserts/autos/base were selling for pennies on the dollar compared to other higher end sets that stayed fairly popular.[/QUOTE]

If that's going to be the case with Definitive, I'd wait, but since this is a much more limited release with what looks to be a strong checklist, I'm not sure how far they will fall in the future. At least these will be all on-card auto's unlike NT.

[QUOTE=Zacy87;10489241]Simple logic would say NT. A brand with longevity and will be moving forward or a one and done brand.

I take NT all day.[/QUOTE]

Preach!

Topps is on the way out. they very well could drop the mic with this product.



but i'm not holding my breath. NT has the history.

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;10490321]This is all i could come up with. The product is set to be released i believe Feb 24 or 26.


[url=http://www.beckett.com/news/2015/09/2015-topps-definitive-collection-football-cards/]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Football Cards First Look - Beckett News[/url][/QUOTE]

Dooooope I cant wait love the designs and on-card autos.

I really think Diamond and Definitive are going to be incredible. Topps did an amazing job in baseball with Dynasty and I think these releases will be similar to that. Looking forward to both and staying away from NT.

[QUOTE=GrangerCollectr;10492402]I really think Diamond and Definitive are going to be incredible. Topps did an amazing job in baseball with Dynasty and I think these releases will be similar to that. Looking forward to both and staying away from NT.[/QUOTE]


I'm gonna bump this up.

Release date of Definitive is Wednesday. Can't wait.

Id like to say NT but with topps going out they want a bang just like panini did with 13-14 prime hockey.... so D.C. wins

[QUOTE=Grza;10492101]Dooooope I cant wait love the designs and on-card autos.[/QUOTE]

Just wait until you see the checklist :)!

[url=http://www.cardboardconnection.com/2015-topps-definitive-collection-football]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Football Checklist, Info, Boxes[/url]

[QUOTE=Splendid;10489972]It's Definitively Definitive Collection and it's not close.... Our Panini rep. even thinks Definitive Collection is unlike any high-end product ever released.

I'm not even sure NT will be on par with [B][I]Diamond[/I][/B], much less Definitive Collection.

With Diamond and D.C., Topps will be executing this hobby's ultimate microphone drop.[/QUOTE]

This post is gold. Pure gold.

[QUOTE=Splendid;10489972]It's Definitively Definitive Collection and it's not close.... Our Panini rep. even thinks Definitive Collection is unlike any high-end product ever released.

I'm not even sure NT will be on par with [B][I]Diamond[/I][/B], much less Definitive Collection.

With Diamond and D.C., Topps will be executing this hobby's ultimate microphone drop.[/QUOTE]

Tom Brady didn't make the checklist. That should alone disqualify it from being anything but above average 5 star. Not sure what that guys smoking but I'll take some. And I'm not a Pats fan. But to leave out the greats Brady, Montana etc cmon man.

[QUOTE=Hawksmack;10542452]Tom Brady didn't make the checklist. That should alone disqualify it from being anything but above average 5 star. Not sure what that guys smoking but I'll take some. And I'm not a Pats fan. But to leave out the greats Brady, Montana etc cmon man.[/QUOTE]

My mistake.... I thought there was dual signature card featuring Joe Montana and Jerry Rice..... It's [I]Steve Young[/I] with Rice.

[QUOTE=Splendid;10542465]Montana is in it, albeit on a dual signature w/ Jerry Rice.

Not sure why Tom Brady isn't on the Checklist.... However, rumor has it that there will be two mystery redemptions.... Maybe he's one of them....?[/QUOTE]

I don't see the dual of Montana.

[QUOTE=Jackg1980;10542480]I don't see the dual of Montana.[/QUOTE]

It's Steve Young and Jerry Rice.... Not Montana.... My bad.

Rookie singles will do well, and the top end hofers because they are on card. That's it for the longevity of its value.

Diamond is a whole other story and I wouldn't wait for singles to hit, cause any of the good ones will be close to the price of a box if not higher.

[QUOTE=Hawksmack;10542426]Just wait until you see the checklist :)!

[url=http://www.cardboardconnection.com/2015-topps-definitive-collection-football]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Football Checklist, Info, Boxes[/url][/QUOTE]

The Dual Autographs checklist is VERY impressive. A lot of big cards to be had out of that set alone

If I had to guess best box break / group break will be Definitive this year as this looks like a veteran heavy product and short supply. Best long term will be NT because that's just what happens when one product survives and the other is one and done. In 5 years no one will know what Definitive is, but this year if breaking high end I would choose it to rip and flip over NT

I just did a [B]fake box break thru random.org[/B]. Here is what I got. Anyone else. Yes I am bored.

DC- Base Rookie Autograph Patch Set
AIC - Autograph Inscription Set
DAP- Definitive Autograph Patch Set
DHC - Definitive Helmet Relic Set /4 1/1
PC - Definitive Patch Set 1/1
DRA - Definitive Rookie Autographs Set
DA - Dual Autograph Set
DLAP - Dual Autographed Patch Set
FRA - Framed Rookie Autograph Set
FRAP - Framed Rookie Autograph Patch Set
JPC - Jumbo Patch Set 1/1
LPRAP - Leather Bound Rookie Autograph Patch Set
LAC - Legendary Autograph Set
DNC - Rookie Nameplate Set 1/1
VNC - Veteran Nameplate Set


[B]Patches:
PC-DBY1 Dez Bryant - Dallas Cowboys 1/1
DNC-TY T.J. Yeldon - Jacksonville Jaguars 1/1

Autos:
[B]DAP-JC Jamaal Charles - Kansas City Chiefs
DAP-GB Giovani Bernard - Cincinnati Bengals
FRAP-DJO Duke Johnson - Cleveland Browns
DC-33 Jamison Crowder - Washington Redskins
DA-WB Antonio Brown - Pittsburgh Steelers Hines Ward -
LAC-LTA1 Lawrence Taylor - New York Giants[/B]

Patches:
PC-EG1 Eddie George - Tennessee Titans 1/1
PC-EL1 Eddie Lacy - Green Bay Packers 1/1

Autos:
DAP-RS Richard Sherman - Seattle Seahawks
DAP-RT Ryan Tannehill - Miami Dolphins
DLAP-HM Ty Montgomery/ Brett Hundley -
DC-4 DeVante Parker - Miami Dolphins
DLAP-WS Russell Wilson/ Richard Sherman - Seattle Seaha
DC-20 T.J. Yeldon - Jacksonville Jaguars[/B]

[QUOTE=Grid;10490847]I agree with this! Out of site out of mind. Even if Topps makes non-logo stuff it still wont be mainstream. I remember when SP Authentic was THE rookie card to own. Now not so much. And they are still producing that.

Perfect example is Topps Gold Label. It was the cats-ass when it dropped in 98. Everyone loved the super premium look and feel. Singles of top rookies were selling for $25 for BASE cards. Once they stopped making it in 2000 people slowly stopped searching for singles and within a year or two inserts/autos/base were selling for pennies on the dollar compared to other higher end sets that stayed fairly popular.[/QUOTE]

I see where you're coming from, but I have to disagree with the top part. SP Authentic (and Exquisite staring in 2005) were absolutely [I]THE[/I] rookie cards to have for just about every rookie from the mid-90s until UD lost their license - but, they still would be if UD still had a license to create NFL cards.
The key rookies from those years have maintained solid value, if not increased in value, and they will always be the best rookie cards for those given years. I can guarantee that the vast majority of NFL & NBA collectors would give anything to have UD back producing licensed cards again and Panini would be an afterthought. I would venture to guess that collectors' attitudes towards Topps will slowly move this way as well over the next few years as Panini takes a stranglehold on the NFL hobby.

When Panini is the only game in town next year producing 30+ overpriced trashy products with nothing but sticker autos, I could absolutely see demand increasing on previous Topps products, especially ones such as Definitive that have single and dual on-card autographs of veterans and HOFers - cards that Panini simply refuses to produce outside of a $1,500/box Flawless product which doesn't even include dual autos.

[QUOTE=Jackg1980;10543892]I just did a [B]fake box break thru random.org[/B]. Here is what I got. Anyone else. Yes I am bored.

DC- Base Rookie Autograph Patch Set
AIC - Autograph Inscription Set
DAP- Definitive Autograph Patch Set
DHC - Definitive Helmet Relic Set /4 1/1
PC - Definitive Patch Set 1/1
DRA - Definitive Rookie Autographs Set
DA - Dual Autograph Set
DLAP - Dual Autographed Patch Set
FRA - Framed Rookie Autograph Set
FRAP - Framed Rookie Autograph Patch Set
JPC - Jumbo Patch Set 1/1
LPRAP - Leather Bound Rookie Autograph Patch Set
LAC - Legendary Autograph Set
DNC - Rookie Nameplate Set 1/1
VNC - Veteran Nameplate Set


[B]Patches:
PC-DBY1 Dez Bryant - Dallas Cowboys 1/1
DNC-TY T.J. Yeldon - Jacksonville Jaguars 1/1

Autos:
[B]DAP-JC Jamaal Charles - Kansas City Chiefs
DAP-GB Giovani Bernard - Cincinnati Bengals
FRAP-DJO Duke Johnson - Cleveland Browns
DC-33 Jamison Crowder - Washington Redskins
DA-WB Antonio Brown - Pittsburgh Steelers Hines Ward -
LAC-LTA1 Lawrence Taylor - New York Giants[/B]

Patches:
PC-EG1 Eddie George - Tennessee Titans 1/1
PC-EL1 Eddie Lacy - Green Bay Packers 1/1

Autos:
DAP-RS Richard Sherman - Seattle Seahawks
DAP-RT Ryan Tannehill - Miami Dolphins
DLAP-HM Ty Montgomery/ Brett Hundley -
DC-4 DeVante Parker - Miami Dolphins
DLAP-WS Russell Wilson/ Richard Sherman - Seattle Seaha
DC-20 T.J. Yeldon - Jacksonville Jaguars[/B][/QUOTE]

That's awesome lol

[QUOTE=puck419;10544277]That's awesome lol[/QUOTE]

You just found 650$ in your couch. Instead of doing something useful like spending it on women and beer you decide to waste it on cards. Here is what you got.

Patches:
PC-RT1 Ryan Tannehill - Miami Dolphins 1/1
PC-MM1 Marcus Mariota - Tennessee Titans 1/1

Autos:
DRA-DC David Cobb - Tennessee Titans
DC-22 Mike Davis - San Francisco 49ers
DAP-PH Paul Hornung - Green Bay Packers
LAC-EM1 Eli Manning - New York Giants
FRAP-JH Justin Hardy - Atlanta Falcons
DAP-MSI Mike Singletary - Chicago Bears

[QUOTE=Jackg1980;10544321]You just found 650$ in your couch. Instead of doing something useful like spending it on women and beer you decide to waste it on cards. Here is what you got.

Patches:
PC-RT1 Ryan Tannehill - Miami Dolphins 1/1
PC-MM1 Marcus Mariota - Tennessee Titans 1/1

Autos:
DRA-DC David Cobb - Tennessee Titans
DC-22 Mike Davis - San Francisco 49ers
DAP-PH Paul Hornung - Green Bay Packers
LAC-EM1 Eli Manning - New York Giants
FRAP-JH Justin Hardy - Atlanta Falcons
DAP-MSI Mike Singletary - Chicago Bears[/QUOTE]


What happens if I bought a case :eek::o:)!

[QUOTE=puck419;10544334]What happens if I bought a case :eek::o:)![/QUOTE]

Well you only found 650$ in your couch, but lucky for you there was a glitch in paypal and they raised your credit limit by 1300$ even tho you have a 325 credit score.

Here is what you got:

Patches
JPC-ME Mike Evans - Tampa Bay Buccaneers
PC-JCH Jamaal Charles - Kansas City Chiefs 1/1

Autos:
DAP-TD Terrell Davis - Denver Broncos
DRA-PD Phillip Dorsett - Indianapolis Colts
DRA-BH Brett Hundley - Green Bay Packers
DAP-RT Ryan Tannehill - Miami Dolphins
DAP-JM Jordan Matthews - Philadelphia Eagles
FRAP-AA Ameer Abdullah - Detroit Lions


Patches:
VNC-MS Matthew Stafford - Detroit Lions 1/1
DNC-MD Mike Davis - San Francisco 49ers /1/

Autos
DA-BC Tim Brown - Oakland Raiders Amari Cooper Raiders
DAP-MI Mark Ingram - New Orleans Saints
AIC-FH Franco Harris - Pittsburgh Steelers
FRA-NA Nelson Agholor - Philadelphia Eagles
DC-32 Chris Conley - Kansas City Chiefs
AIC-RS Roger Staubach - Dallas Cowboys

[QUOTE=Jackg1980;10544384]Well you only found 650$ in your couch, but lucky for you there was a glitch in paypal and they raised your credit limit by 1300$ even tho you have a 325 credit score.

Here is what you got:

Patches
JPC-ME Mike Evans - Tampa Bay Buccaneers
PC-JCH Jamaal Charles - Kansas City Chiefs 1/1

Autos:
DAP-TD Terrell Davis - Denver Broncos
DRA-PD Phillip Dorsett - Indianapolis Colts
DRA-BH Brett Hundley - Green Bay Packers
DAP-RT Ryan Tannehill - Miami Dolphins
DAP-JM Jordan Matthews - Philadelphia Eagles
FRAP-AA Ameer Abdullah - Detroit Lions


Patches:
VNC-MS Matthew Stafford - Detroit Lions 1/1
DNC-MD Mike Davis - San Francisco 49ers /1/

Autos
DA-BC Tim Brown - Oakland Raiders Amari Cooper Raiders
DAP-MI Mark Ingram - New Orleans Saints
AIC-FH Franco Harris - Pittsburgh Steelers
FRA-NA Nelson Agholor - Philadelphia Eagles
DC-32 Chris Conley - Kansas City Chiefs
AIC-RS Roger Staubach - Dallas Cowboys[/QUOTE]


Little rough, dual saved me. I bet that case next to it is better. :flex::p lmao

On a side note that would be a great way to fly through a boring day. Random.org case breaking lol

[QUOTE=puck419;10544573]On a side note that would be a great way to fly through a boring day. Random.org case breaking lol[/QUOTE]

Patch
DEFINITIVE PATCH-BJ2 Bo Jackson 1/1
VETERAN NAMEPLATE SET 1/1-JE John Elway 1/1

Autos:
BASE RC AUTOGRAPH-30 Matt Jones
LEATHER BOUND RC AUTO PATCH-AC Amari Cooper
DUAL AUTO-BSS Emmitt Smith/ Barry Sanders
BASE RC AUTOGRAPH-27 Jeremy Langford
DUAL AUTO PATCH-CP DeVante Parker/ Amari Cooper
LEGENDARY AUTO-AR1 Aaron Rodgers -

First cards showing up on eBay...

Edit: Guy on eBay only did one box.

Only 3 cards posted so far.

Justin Hardy 2 color RPA /25
Mike Evans Jumbo patch auto (part of logo) /99
Dante Fowler Jr Rc Auto /99 (card design looks beautiful)

[URL=http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/DHGpuck419/media/AC08AA64-D808-4611-B0F0-F7639940A58B_zps1fqmq8ie.png.html][IMG]http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p583/DHGpuck419/AC08AA64-D808-4611-B0F0-F7639940A58B_zps1fqmq8ie.png[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/DHGpuck419/media/BD3D30F3-B68D-4392-BC58-48962C4D4CA3_zps2scpi250.png.html][IMG]http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p583/DHGpuck419/BD3D30F3-B68D-4392-BC58-48962C4D4CA3_zps2scpi250.png[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/DHGpuck419/media/05AC9578-2BEC-4AB9-826D-3D34EBA3FB8F_zps9fquhxtk.png.html][IMG]http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p583/DHGpuck419/05AC9578-2BEC-4AB9-826D-3D34EBA3FB8F_zps9fquhxtk.png[/IMG][/URL]

NT and its not gonna be close.

Maybe I'm just a lowly peasant, but the RPA don't seem all that special to me based off those pics.

[URL=http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/DHGpuck419/media/1842F100-913A-46F3-9673-CF176EE38FFF_zpswtiiqic6.png.html][IMG]http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p583/DHGpuck419/1842F100-913A-46F3-9673-CF176EE38FFF_zpswtiiqic6.png[/IMG][/URL]

I love that steelers dual

[URL=http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/DHGpuck419/media/E26DD325-E892-4832-B7F6-5E0E7A312D30_zps9z42y5cw.png.html][IMG]http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p583/DHGpuck419/E26DD325-E892-4832-B7F6-5E0E7A312D30_zps9z42y5cw.png[/IMG][/URL]

looks great

[QUOTE=Jackg1980;10544607]Patch
DEFINITIVE PATCH-BJ2 Bo Jackson 1/1
VETERAN NAMEPLATE SET 1/1-JE John Elway 1/1

Autos:
BASE RC AUTOGRAPH-30 Matt Jones
LEATHER BOUND RC AUTO PATCH-AC Amari Cooper
DUAL AUTO-BSS Emmitt Smith/ Barry Sanders
BASE RC AUTOGRAPH-27 Jeremy Langford
DUAL AUTO PATCH-CP DeVante Parker/ Amari Cooper
LEGENDARY AUTO-AR1 Aaron Rodgers -[/QUOTE]

It doesn't seem like you're taking the numbering into account here...

[QUOTE=BirdLaw;10545125]It doesn't seem like you're taking the numbering into account here...[/QUOTE]

Nope, just messing around. Don't know all the numbering.

Amari cooper is a redemption...

Looks like cases for definitive went up about $250 on BO

They are in different lanes.

Definitive is the cost of about two boxes of NT.

So is Definitive better than a single box of NT? Probably.

Two boxes of NT? Heck no.

[QUOTE=freethrowtommy;10557891]They are in different lanes.

[B]Definitive is the cost of about two boxes of NT.[/B]

So is Definitive better than a single box of NT? Probably.

[B]Two boxes of NT? Heck no.[/B][/QUOTE]

This post is so false.

[QUOTE=mcgahee21nfl;10557989]This post is so false.[/QUOTE]

Okay, it is a box and a half. I thought NT was only $350 per box, my bad.

Definitive is $700. [url=http://www.cardboardconnection.com/2015-topps-definitive-collection-football]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Football Checklist, Info, Boxes[/url]

NT is $450. [url=http://www.cardboardconnection.com/2015-panini-national-treasures-football]2015 Panini National Treasures Football Checklist[/url]

I still don't think Definitive is that much better than NT.

Point being, they aren't in the same lane, price wise.

[QUOTE=freethrowtommy;10558011]Okay, it is a box and a half. I thought NT was only $350 per box, my bad.

Definitive is $700. [url=http://www.cardboardconnection.com/2015-topps-definitive-collection-football]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Football Checklist, Info, Boxes[/url]

NT is $450. [url=http://www.cardboardconnection.com/2015-panini-national-treasures-football]2015 Panini National Treasures Football Checklist[/url]

I still don't think Definitive is that much better than NT.

Point being, they aren't in the same lane, price wise.[/QUOTE]

In the way you are talking about "lanes" they are. Their cost was very similar per case. Most people who buy and judge products do it on the case. Thankfully, Topps Definitive won't really operate in this manner as they don't seem to have definitive "case hits" but thats how the market generally operates now. Case price for X amount of hits per case. When you get down to boxes, there is usually not so much of a market since the case hit can be missing.

I'd imagine you will get much more value from cases of Definitive than you will National Treasures. Thus, you would get more for 1.5x less boxes of Definitive than you will a box of National Treasures. It doesn't matter whether or not its boxes, cases, or cards, the relative price point adjustment will equal out to the same proportionality.

Now the only thing that matters (now that you have the math correct), is whether or not you think Definitive cases will produce more value than NT cases. That prospect shouldn't be as promising with the real equation staring you in the face.

All I gotta say is that I hate the way Treasures looks this year after a stellar year last year. Definitive has tons of redemptions, but cards might be the best looking all year. People will pick treasures because of the history. People are dumb.

Some of the patches ive seen in Definitive are pretty filthy. I like those helmet patches also.

[QUOTE=mcgahee21nfl;10558117]In the way you are talking about "lanes" they are. Their cost was very similar per case. Most people who buy and judge products do it on the case. Thankfully, Topps Definitive won't really operate in this manner as they don't seem to have definitive "case hits" but thats how the market generally operates now. Case price for X amount of hits per case. When you get down to boxes, there is usually not so much of a market since the case hit can be missing.

I'd imagine you will get much more value from cases of Definitive than you will National Treasures. Thus, you would get more for 1.5x less boxes of Definitive than you will a box of National Treasures. It doesn't matter whether or not its boxes, cases, or cards, the relative price point adjustment will equal out to the same proportionality.

Now the only thing that matters (now that you have the math correct), is whether or not you think Definitive cases will produce more value than NT cases. That prospect shouldn't be as promising with the real equation staring you in the face.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. I am not going to argue with you since I don't care enough about buying cases and/or boxes to make it worth my while.

Looking at the number of hits in both products, I see that Definitive probably does offer an on par value per hit on the surface. I haven't been impressed with the singles so far and loved NT last year, so I guess I have a bit of bias.

Definitive by the proverbial country mile. NT, Flawless, Immaculate, Luxe. etc., etc..... Nothing Panini has will come close.

In fact, I'm sure Panini is thanking their lucky stars that Topps is out of the Football game for the foreseeable future.

[QUOTE=Splendid;10558443]Definitive by the proverbial country mile. NT, Flawless, Immaculate, Luxe. etc., etc..... Nothing Panini has will come close.

In fact, I'm sure Panini is thanking their lucky stars that Topps is out of the Football game for the foreseeable future.[/QUOTE]
It's gonna be a long couple of years....Just look what they did to basketball :confused:

[QUOTE=Splendid;10558443]Definitive by the proverbial country mile. NT, Flawless, Immaculate, Luxe. etc., etc..... Nothing Panini has will come close.

In fact, I'm sure Panini is thanking their lucky stars that Topps is out of the Football game for the foreseeable future.[/QUOTE]

Definite looks nothing special and defiently not better looking than immaculate/flawless...
Just does not scream high end...

Topps has been making 99% ugly for the last 25 years...
But collectors love ugly cards...contenders is ugly and people eat it up..

[QUOTE=k13;10558681]Definite looks nothing special and defiently not better looking than immaculate/flawless...
Just does not scream high end... [/QUOTE]

Really....? Have you seen the product in-hand....? D.C. doesn't just "scream high end", it epitomizes it.

[QUOTE=mr_yoshi_san;10558643]It's gonna be a long couple of years....Just look what they did to basketball :confused:[/QUOTE]

Sadly yes, it's going to get rough. There needs to be at least two licensed companies per sport..... and imo, Panini should stick to what they're actually good at.....producing cheaply made stickers.

looks better then immaculate to me, but everyone is entitled their own opinion.

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;10558145]Some of the patches ive seen in Definitive are pretty filthy. I like those helmet patches also.[/QUOTE]

Almost every one of the Vertical Patches I have seen looks to be leftover Rookie Premier stuff from guys who were in it not that long ago:

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-topps-definitive-collection-Russell-Wilson-jersey-patch-25-/272146133165?hash=item3f5d2c70ad:g:nCQAAOSwDuJWz2FN]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Russell Wilson Jersey Patch 25 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-topps-definitive-collection-Andrew-Luck-patch-40-/281946114366?hash=item41a54c493e:g:kN4AAOSwPc9Wz1jj]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Andrew Luck Patch 40 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Definitive-Collection-Autograph-Jumbo-Patch-Mike-Evans-Auto-97-99-/191813768553?hash=item2ca8fdd569:g:3GEAAOSwB4NWz3F2]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Autograph Jumbo Patch Mike Evans Auto 97 99 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Definitive-Collection-Autograph-Jumbo-Patch-Jeremy-Hill-Auto-4-5-/191813762988?hash=item2ca8fdbfac:g:IfgAAOSwx-9Wz26K]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Autograph Jumbo Patch Jeremy Hill Auto 4 5 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANDREW-LUCK-2015-TOPPS-DEFINITIVE-COLLECTION-JERSEY-2-CLR-PATCH-10-COLTS-SP-/331787787716?hash=item4d4017ddc4:g:yNUAAOSwPc9Wzuja]Andrew Luck 2015 Topps Definitive Collection Jersey 2 CLR Patch 10 Colts SP | eBay[/url] - Reebok Style Jersey weave.

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANDREW-LUCK-Jumbo-BLUE-Jersey-PATCH-20-25-2015-Definitive-Collection-/361498789800?hash=item542b01c7a8:g:TYQAAOSwezVW0Kt3]Andrew Luck Jumbo Blue Jersey Patch 20 25 2015 Definitive Collection | eBay[/url] - Same here

- Definite Event Worn

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Definitive-Collection-Autograph-Patch-Ryan-Tannehill-Auto-76-99-/191813764851?hash=item2ca8fdc6f3:g:QJEAAOSwFNZWz2-8]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Autograph Patch Ryan Tannehill Auto 76 99 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/RYAN-TANNEHILL-2015-Definitive-Collection-On-Card-Autograph-Auto-Patch-Relic-5-/191814217172?hash=item2ca904add4:g:Cf0AAOSwll1W0H3E]Ryan Tannehill 2015 Definitive Collection on Card Autograph Auto Patch Relic 5 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Definitive-Collection-CAM-NEWTON-3-COLOR-PATCH-1-15-JERSEY-NUMBER-/351662896714?hash=item51e0bdf64a:g:bUMAAOSwDuJWz7MO]2015 Topps Definitive Collection CAM NEWTON 3-COLOR PATCH #1/15 JERSEY NUMBER![/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-topps-definitive-collection-Jeremy-Hill-auto-patch-99-/272146114905?hash=item3f5d2c2959:g:7G4AAOSwFNZWz13T]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Jeremy Hill Auto Patch 99 | eBay[/url] - Can't tell if the numbers are double 8's here like the Hill I posted above.

- Probably event worn

Color me completely unimpressed :coffee:

[QUOTE=HBMC;10558947]Almost every one of the Vertical Patches I have seen looks to be leftover Rookie Premier stuff from guys who were in it not that long ago:

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-topps-definitive-collection-Russell-Wilson-jersey-patch-25-/272146133165?hash=item3f5d2c70ad:g:nCQAAOSwDuJWz2FN]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Russell Wilson Jersey Patch 25 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-topps-definitive-collection-Andrew-Luck-patch-40-/281946114366?hash=item41a54c493e:g:kN4AAOSwPc9Wz1jj]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Andrew Luck Patch 40 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Definitive-Collection-Autograph-Jumbo-Patch-Mike-Evans-Auto-97-99-/191813768553?hash=item2ca8fdd569:g:3GEAAOSwB4NWz3F2]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Autograph Jumbo Patch Mike Evans Auto 97 99 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Definitive-Collection-Autograph-Jumbo-Patch-Jeremy-Hill-Auto-4-5-/191813762988?hash=item2ca8fdbfac:g:IfgAAOSwx-9Wz26K]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Autograph Jumbo Patch Jeremy Hill Auto 4 5 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANDREW-LUCK-2015-TOPPS-DEFINITIVE-COLLECTION-JERSEY-2-CLR-PATCH-10-COLTS-SP-/331787787716?hash=item4d4017ddc4:g:yNUAAOSwPc9Wzuja]Andrew Luck 2015 Topps Definitive Collection Jersey 2 CLR Patch 10 Colts SP | eBay[/url] - Reebok Style Jersey weave.

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANDREW-LUCK-Jumbo-BLUE-Jersey-PATCH-20-25-2015-Definitive-Collection-/361498789800?hash=item542b01c7a8:g:TYQAAOSwezVW0Kt3]Andrew Luck Jumbo Blue Jersey Patch 20 25 2015 Definitive Collection | eBay[/url] - Same here

- Definite Event Worn

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Definitive-Collection-Autograph-Patch-Ryan-Tannehill-Auto-76-99-/191813764851?hash=item2ca8fdc6f3:g:QJEAAOSwFNZWz2-8]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Autograph Patch Ryan Tannehill Auto 76 99 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/RYAN-TANNEHILL-2015-Definitive-Collection-On-Card-Autograph-Auto-Patch-Relic-5-/191814217172?hash=item2ca904add4:g:Cf0AAOSwll1W0H3E]Ryan Tannehill 2015 Definitive Collection on Card Autograph Auto Patch Relic 5 | eBay[/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Topps-Definitive-Collection-CAM-NEWTON-3-COLOR-PATCH-1-15-JERSEY-NUMBER-/351662896714?hash=item51e0bdf64a:g:bUMAAOSwDuJWz7MO]2015 Topps Definitive Collection CAM NEWTON 3-COLOR PATCH #1/15 JERSEY NUMBER![/url]

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-topps-definitive-collection-Jeremy-Hill-auto-patch-99-/272146114905?hash=item3f5d2c2959:g:7G4AAOSwFNZWz13T]2015 Topps Definitive Collection Jeremy Hill Auto Patch 99 | eBay[/url] - Can't tell if the numbers are double 8's here like the Hill I posted above.

- Probably event worn

Color me completely unimpressed :coffee:[/QUOTE]

I know that Panini has screwed up wording on cards in the past, but Topps doesn't even try. Every patch I have seen from Definitive looks spotless. I haven't seen dirt on anything yet and their wording leaves it so vague that you almost need to assume everything is event worn.

I saw a patch auto pulled that had some dirt on it but cant remember who it was. I want to say Tannehill but not positive.

[QUOTE=freethrowtommy;10559030]I know that Panini has screwed up wording on cards in the past, but Topps doesn't even try. Every patch I have seen from Definitive looks spotless. I haven't seen dirt on anything yet and their wording leaves it so vague that you almost need to assume everything is event worn.[/QUOTE]

I'd be interested in precious few of these cards from an aesthetics aspect, at $600-$700 a box, this is a complete slap in the face of an informed consumer. I don't care about on card autographs if the cards themselves are boring, adding insult to injury is the event worn crap from guys who aren't rookies with their patch autos! I guess we now know why Flawless was double the price but had more real stuff in it from vets/current players.

Panini screwed up on a few cards in Flawless and [I]everyone[/I] lost their effing minds. They even fixed them at minimal-to-no cost and everyone still holds them to a ridiculous standard afterwards. This product is flaccid in basically every aspect and everybody who had their pitchforks out are crickets or actively pimping this product. Five Star cards are more believable, this stuff looks like a nearly total Event Worn product.

This product, and the hypocrisy surrounding it, is insulting.

[QUOTE=HBMC;10559280]I'd be interested in precious few of these cards from an aesthetics aspect, at $600-$700 a box, this is a complete slap in the face of an informed consumer. I don't care about on card autographs if the cards themselves are boring, adding insult to injury is the event worn crap from guys who aren't rookies with their patch autos! I guess we now know why Flawless was double the price but had more real stuff in it from vets/current players.

Panini screwed up on a few cards in Flawless and [I]everyone[/I] lost their effing minds. They even fixed them at minimal-to-no cost and everyone still holds them to a ridiculous standard afterwards. This product is flaccid in basically every aspect and everybody who had their pitchforks out are crickets or actively pimping this product. Five Star cards are more believable, this stuff looks like a nearly total Event Worn product.

This product, and the hypocrisy surrounding it, is insulting.[/QUOTE]
Wait...hold on. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that there are hypocrites out there who would excuse Topps and ream Panini for the same thing. This board can be a circlejerk of epic proportions, there's no denying that.

But the issue with Flawless was that they said it was one thing and it turned out to be another. That's a [I]really[/I] big problem to have in your most expensive product, one that specifically markets itself to have game-worn jerseys - and much of the outrage came from the debate of whether or not it was intentional. The people who want it to be an honest mistake will call it that and the people who want it to be fraud will call it that. But either way, it was a major screw up at best.

While it definitely sucks that Topps is using so much event worn material even for veterans/HOFers in their highest end product, at least by not claiming anything we know not to expect anything. It's unfortunate, but we can't say they intentionally/unintentionally deceived us.

All I'm going to say is Panini may want to stop the presses and start over. There is no way they can compete with Definitive unless everything has an on card auto. Definitive is unbelievable. Most exciting product of the year so far. You have a chance Panini you know what needs to be done. Back to the boardroom fellas.

Remember the days when jerseys on the card were actually game used? Some even had pics of the actual game used item on the back from which it was taken.

Yet, somehow the price on wax has skyrocketed and the products in general have crashed in quality (On card autos, real game used pieces).

It truly is amazing.

[QUOTE=BirdLaw;10559375]

But the issue with Flawless was that they said it was one thing and it turned out to be another. That's a [I]really[/I] big problem to have in your most expensive product, one that specifically markets itself to have game-worn jerseys - and much of the outrage came from the debate of whether or not it was intentional. The people who want it to be an honest mistake will call it that and the people who want it to be fraud will call it that. But either way, it was a major screw up at best. [/quote]

Certainly, it was a disaster and I am glad they at least owned it and fixed it as best they could, that was a major faux pas on several levels. I was certainly glad they had awesome stuff for the veterans in the product.

[quote]While it definitely sucks that Topps is using so much event worn material even for veterans/HOFers in their highest end product, at least by not claiming anything we know not to expect anything. It's unfortunate, but we can't say they intentionally/unintentionally deceived us.[/QUOTE]

So the low expectations argument (not saying you're in blind defense either)? Eh, man talk about being willing to get BOHICA'd due to brand loyalty. I just don't get it. :(

[QUOTE=BoxBreaker72;10559410]Remember the days when jerseys on the card were actually game used? Some even had pics of the actual game used item on the back from which it was taken.

Yet, somehow the price on wax has skyrocketed and the products in general have crashed in quality (On card autos, real game used pieces).

It truly is amazing.[/QUOTE]

Remember how hard to pull they were too? When you pulled a GU Jersey piece from a Hall of Famer, it really meant something.

[QUOTE=HBMC;10559530]
So the low expectations argument (not saying you're in blind defense either)? Eh, man talk about being willing to get BOHICA'd due to brand loyalty. I just don't get it. :([/QUOTE]

Yeah, it was more about the deception than anything else (not saying it was intentional deception, although that wouldn't shock me either). At least with Definitive you know you're (probably) getting event worn. If event worn doesn't bother someone - and for a lot of people, it doesn't - then it's probably not a huge deal for them.

By the way, it's funny how polarizing Definitive is right now. This thread is a weird mix of people either bashing or the product into oblivion or literally sounding like a scripted advertisement for Topps.

I mean...I think it's okay...

I think Diamond will be the best of the three. I'm ehhhh on Defenitive.

[QUOTE=oldgoldy97;10559910]I think Diamond will be the best of the three. I'm ehhhh on Defenitive.[/QUOTE]

What the hell are you doing up so early? :confused: