Alteration vs. Conservation Defined
 

PWCC will soon publish our Marketplace Tenets, which describes the rules of engagement for transacting on the PWCC Marketplace and the commitments and responsibilities of all parties involved. Among other things, the Tenets will describe what cards we will allow to be sold on our marketplace and will draw a distinction between cards that were altered and cards that were conserved. Cards that are proven altered through physical evidence are not allowed to be sold, while cards that are proven conserved are indeed allowed to be sold.

In an effort to define an enforceable PWCC policy, we want to open up the dialogue with the community to allow for feedback before our official Tenets are published. Acceptable forms of conservation exist in all collectibles markets, ranging from coins to comics to fine art, and we feel it’s time the trading card market better defines a stance on what is acceptable conservation. The following is a draft of our current understanding of majority opinion, and this is subject to edit.

[B]Conservation.[/B] PWCC believes conservation, as defined, to be healthy, sustainable, and supportive of the marketplace and the investors and collectors who participate. Assets that have been conserved can be sold on the PWCC Marketplace.

Conservation is defined as an act which returns an asset closer to its as-manufactured condition but does not otherwise enhance or artificially distance the asset beyond the as-manufactured status. An act which removes a foreign substance from an asset and does so in a way which doesn’t otherwise alter the condition of the as-manufactured product is usually considered acceptable and generally renders the asset worthy of professional grading. Dirt, glue, writing, wax and other foreign substances can be removed from an asset and the result is considered acceptable conservation, so long as the professional Third-Party Authenticators agree the asset is void of unnatural aspects induced as a result of the conservation. Lying flat a warped or bent region of a card (i.e. in a screw down holder), so long as it doesn’t disrupt the card’s natural properties, is generally considered acceptable conservation, whereas pressing a card and thereby changing its as-manufactured properties (i.e. thickness of the card stock) is generally not acceptable and may render the card altered. Laying flat a nonplanar corner, crease, or edge, so long as the card stock is not pressed to a state of artificial thickness, is typically acceptable so long as no other unnatural change to the as-manufactured card stock is discernable.

[B]Alteration.[/B] PWCC believes alteration, as defined, is damaging to the marketplace. Altered assets cannot be sold on the PWCC Marketplace unless this detail is disclosed during the sale.

Alteration includes any act which meaningfully renders a change to the as-manufactured qualities of the asset, outside of the normal wear and deterioration inherent to circulation. Any purposeful material addition or material removal to or from the as-manufactured asset, outside of normal wear or environmental degradation, is generally considered an alteration. Trimming, recoloring, autograph retracing, rebuilding of corners or other surfaces, swapping of patches, or any other action which distances a card from its as-manufactured attributes is considered an act of alteration. Altered cards which are stated as such in a transparent nature are permitted for sale on the Marketplace.

Alteration is only ever officially determined by the presence of physical evidence. Speculation is not considered evidence. Evidence of alteration can be determined in two different ways; either in technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator, or when digital content asserts beyond a reasonable doubt that an alteration took place (i.e. before and after photos of trimming, recoloring, etc).

Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. The best way to share feedback is to send me a direct email at [email]betsy@pwccmarketplace.com[/email]. I will come back onto this thread to gather feedback periodically, but won't be responding to comments actively. Thank you!

As it is written so shall it be.

Please define which of these is conservation. Thank you.

[QUOTE=astrotrevor;14624920]Here is the raw card: [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/55c3f1ebc813a7fdabbac749eb8b8ebb.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/d717941d79fca5ebc9484719dd8ae7e0.jpg[/IMG]

Here is the initial PSA slab sold through Heritage: [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/af0db6374de0a3c8815b768b3f649629.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/1e5c6c0d344f735e21c30575fcab5142.jpg[/IMG]

Current PSA slab through PWCC:

[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/290fe87eb68be7871c1fa6fdd93da3b7.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/058eae99d695d0740a09fd3b738a6ead.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=corndog;14642002]I was able to find an earlier sale of the highlighted in red 1948 Leaf Stan Musial PSA 7 that was sold by PWCC on April 9, 2019. The exact same card was a BVG 6 and sold on November 11, 2017. I did the best I could to do a split screen of the two cards top to bottom and align the interior blue image up. The right edge of the PSA 7 has been trimmed - look at the white border lineup on the right edge. I have circled the areas that identify the two cards as being the same. I had to view 587 completed listings on Worthpoint to find the BVG sample. I don't have the capability to see who made the BVG purchase.

From the list I selected the Musial card first and was able to find the pre-trimmed sale. Any help to identify the buyer would be greatly appreciated.

Link to the Ebay PSA-7 sale here: [URL="https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Stan-Musial-ROOKIE-RC-4-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-HE-/401739891345?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true"]https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Stan-Musial-ROOKIE-RC-4-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-HE-/401739891345?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true[/URL]
Link to the BVG-6 sale here: [URL="https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1948-1949-leaf-stan-musial-rc-bvg-1896777694"]https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1948-1949-leaf-stan-musial-rc-bvg-1896777694[/URL]

Split image with PSA 7 on the top:
2[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027347456_o.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027346696_o.jpg[/IMG]

PSA 7 and BVG 6 front:
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027350007_o.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027352198_o.jpg[/IMG]

PSA 7 and BVG 6 back:
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027350227_o.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027350304_o.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=3124508 on COMC;14642654]My turn!

[url]https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackLeftForOthers&userid=ssho1659&iid=-1&de=off&searchInterval=30&items=200&searchInterval=30[/url]


[IMG]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0218/15/1948-leaf-121-dom-dimaggio-hof-red_1_9608747ff685a745b4d204f26bf52e7e.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images2/1/0218/15/1948-leaf-121-dom-dimaggio-hof-red_1_9608747ff685a745b4d204f26bf52e7e.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pwccauctions/2019/2019_3/medium/2_0216A509.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pwccauctions/2019/2019_3/medium/2_0216A510.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=CaptSpaulding;14642601][url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-National-Chicle-Football-Flavio-Bull-Tosi-27-PSA-6-EXMT-PWCC-PQ-/143006454290?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true[/url] This was won by a buyer with 3805 feedback.

[url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-National-Chicle-Football-Flavio-Bull-Tosi-27-PSA-8-NM-MT-PWCC-/352617679642?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true[/url] Here it is once it was relisted.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=3124508 on COMC;14642771][url]https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=deborlarso_0&iid=-1&de=off&items=200&interval=0&searchInterval=30&mPg=2&page=2[/url]

Fisheye in blue on back in same place. Dark dot under Stooges on back of both.

[IMG]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0617/28/1959-fleer-three-stooges-isa-grading_1_9aa895d37d05df32f95d6c3ca72fdb9f.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images4/1/0617/28/1959-fleer-three-stooges-isa-grading_1_9aa895d37d05df32f95d6c3ca72fdb9f.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pwccauctions/2017/2017_11/2_1107F9_1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pwccauctions/2017/2017_11/2_1107F10_1.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=corndog;14642960]Another one: Very vintage 1888 N162 Goodwin Champions Beecher

Previously graded an SGC-2.5 when sold through Heritage Auctions on November 16, 2018. Worthpoint link here: [URL="https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1888-n162-goodwin-champions-henry-1974244745"]https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1888-n162-goodwin-champions-henry-1974244745[/URL]
Sold for $8,500 by PWCC as a PSA-5 on April 21, 2019 here: [URL="https://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N162-Goodwin-Champions-Beecher-ROOKIE-RC-PSA-5-EX-PWCC-/143211321533?hash=item21580f58bd%3Ag%3AcrwAAOSwGNFcr5eN&nma=true&si=mqZwGBb%252FvHUaLUeYzY%252F79qNQGjg%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557"]https://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N162-Goodwin-Champions-Beecher-ROOKIE-RC-PSA-5-EX-PWCC-/143211321533?hash=item21580f58bd%3Ag%3AcrwAAOSwGNFcr5eN&nma=true&si=mqZwGBb%252FvHUaLUeYzY%252F79qNQGjg%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557[/URL]

Card has undergone a major restoration.

Fronts:
[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027371863_o.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027371853_o.jpg[/IMG]

Backs with fibers matched:

[IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027371857_o.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/0/4/2/5/webimg/1027371865_o.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=superdan49;14643121]1955 Parkhurst Wrestling #13 Lou Pitoscia PSA 5.5 becomes PSA 8

eBay seller: teddyball
eBay buyer: whitman111

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ZZPp8mU.jpg[/IMG]


[URL="https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=teddyball&iid=-1&de=off&interval=0&searchInterval=30&items=200&searchInterval=30"]https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=teddyball&iid=-1&de=off&interval=0&searchInterval=30&items=200&searchInterval=30[/URL]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/VmL09VG.png[/IMG]



[URL="https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1936427"]https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1936427[/URL]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/QJTJ6cV.jpg[/IMG]



[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/o5E7DkM.png[/IMG]



This is one of about 15 mid-grade Parkhurst wresting cards whitman111 bought from teddyball. I found this Pitoscia card in PWCC's archives. It was purchased as a PSA 5.5 for $17.50. It sold with PWCC for $331.[/QUOTE]

The collecting world disagrees with you.

Good luck.

By the way, have you began to refund the $100,000 plus from the cards proven altered in the Mantle thread?

* When the situation is hopeless, there's nothing to worry about. *

I think they posted it in each thread to divy up the responses that this was clearly written by some third rate lawyer. I think PWCC is a much, much bigger player in this circle than they are getting credit for.

So basically you are ok with some alterations but not all? Both of your definitions are alterations in most people’s minds.

This is my favorite part.

[QUOTE]Dirt, glue, writing, wax and other foreign substances can be removed from an asset and the result is considered acceptable conservation, so long as the professional Third-Party Authenticators agree the asset is void of unnatural aspects induced as a result of the conservation.[/QUOTE]
So long as PSA agrees or can't detect said removal. Because using any kind of solution to remove these substances is not allowed per PSA.

[QUOTE]N-7 Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=clocsta2323;14645774]I think they posted it in each thread to divy up the responses that this was clearly written by some third rate lawyer. I think PWCC is a much, much bigger player in this circle than they are getting credit for.[/QUOTE]
Of course. Which is why I posted in every thread the blatant examples of cards they have sold or are selling that by anyone's definition here, have been altered. Do they believe these examples have all been conserved and not altered? Then they should say so. Do they believe any of the examples have been altered? Then they should reach out to the buyers and make it right.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14645788]Of course. Which is why I posted in every thread the blatant examples of cards they have sold or are selling that by anyone's definition here, have been altered. Do they believe these examples have all been conserved and not altered? Then they should say so. Do they believe any of the examples have been altered? Then they should reach out to the buyers and make it right.[/QUOTE]

I just don't think anyone at PWCC realizes what they have gotten themselves into yet... its baffling but their post leads me to that conclusion.


They are WAY past disclaimers and tenets(seriously??)

[QUOTE=corndog;14645740]The collecting world disagrees with you.

Good luck.

By the way, have you began to refund the $100,000 plus from the cards proven altered in the Mantle thread?[/QUOTE]

I must have missed the vote.

[QUOTE=PWCC Marketplace;14645659]PWCC will soon publish our Marketplace Tenets, which describes the rules of engagement for transacting on the PWCC Marketplace and the commitments and responsibilities of all parties involved. Among other things, the Tenets will describe what cards we will allow to be sold on our marketplace and will draw a distinction between cards that were altered and cards that were conserved. Cards that are proven altered through physical evidence are not allowed to be sold, while cards that are proven conserved are indeed allowed to be sold.

In an effort to define an enforceable PWCC policy, we want to open up the dialogue with the community to allow for feedback before our official Tenets are published. Acceptable forms of conservation exist in all collectibles markets, ranging from coins to comics to fine art, and we feel it’s time the trading card market better defines a stance on what is acceptable conservation. The following is a draft of our current understanding of majority opinion, and this is subject to edit.

[B]Conservation.[/B] PWCC believes conservation, as defined, to be healthy, sustainable, and supportive of the marketplace and the investors and collectors who participate. Assets that have been conserved can be sold on the PWCC Marketplace.

Conservation is defined as an act which returns an asset closer to its as-manufactured condition but does not otherwise enhance or artificially distance the asset beyond the as-manufactured status. An act which removes a foreign substance from an asset and does so in a way which doesn’t otherwise alter the condition of the as-manufactured product is usually considered acceptable and generally renders the asset worthy of professional grading. Dirt, glue, writing, wax and other foreign substances can be removed from an asset and the result is considered acceptable conservation, so long as the professional Third-Party Authenticators agree the asset is void of unnatural aspects induced as a result of the conservation. Lying flat a warped or bent region of a card (i.e. in a screw down holder), so long as it doesn’t disrupt the card’s natural properties, is generally considered acceptable conservation, whereas pressing a card and thereby changing its as-manufactured properties (i.e. thickness of the card stock) is generally not acceptable and may render the card altered. Laying flat a nonplanar corner, crease, or edge, so long as the card stock is not pressed to a state of artificial thickness, is typically acceptable so long as no other unnatural change to the as-manufactured card stock is discernable.

[B]Alteration.[/B] PWCC believes alteration, as defined, is damaging to the marketplace. Altered assets cannot be sold on the PWCC Marketplace unless this detail is disclosed during the sale.

Alteration includes any act which meaningfully renders a change to the as-manufactured qualities of the asset, outside of the normal wear and deterioration inherent to circulation. Any purposeful material addition or material removal to or from the as-manufactured asset, outside of normal wear or environmental degradation, is generally considered an alteration. Trimming, recoloring, autograph retracing, rebuilding of corners or other surfaces, swapping of patches, or any other action which distances a card from its as-manufactured attributes is considered an act of alteration. Altered cards which are stated as such in a transparent nature are permitted for sale on the Marketplace.

Alteration is only ever officially determined by the presence of physical evidence. Speculation is not considered evidence. Evidence of alteration can be determined in two different ways; either in technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator, or when digital content asserts beyond a reasonable doubt that an alteration took place (i.e. before and after photos of trimming, recoloring, etc).

Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. The best way to share feedback is to send me a direct email at [email]betsy@pwccmarketplace.com[/email]. I will come back onto this thread to gather feedback periodically, but won't be responding to comments actively. Thank you![/QUOTE]

You do know there will be an indictment soon. It may be tomorrow, it may be in six months, but this has gotten to big. Your post clearly displays your company has no idea of the serverity of your situation.

I wasn’t sure what ‘PWCC Marketplace’ meant above, so I googled.

I found something called a PWCC Vault that is apparently part of that marketplace. It looks like it will go live soon, and there will apparently be no transparency about the transactions that will occur there - the way the PWCC site reads, buying there will be anonymous.

Anyone find this Vault troubling given the current PWCC climate?

The Vault is also being promoted actively as a way to evade state sales tax.

PWCC's explanations for most controversial issues that surround them tend to be filled with total dishonesty and spin.

If steps of conservation are so acceptable then why have they not been disclosed to date? Also how do we know anyone at PWCC is qualified to make the determination between what they deem a card that has undergone conservation and one that was altered. This really requires consignors to disclose the work that has been done. No consignor who has worked on a card is going to disclose anything at all.

This all so silly.

Removing wax, gum stains etc. Is one thing. but all these graded cards that have been verified as trimed/altered recently, has to only be a small percentage of them. It s terrible for the 'hobby' plain and simple

[QUOTE=mjohnatgt;14645905]The Vault is also being promoted actively as a way to evade state sales tax.[/QUOTE]

This isn't surprising either.

I think the damage has been done at this point. There are obviously a lot of issues with whats been posted previously and with how it's being handled.

:popcorn:

You didn't think a response from pwcc was going to make things better for them, did you?

all this bluster, and they’ve chosen the completely wrong word to obfuscate matters further. Discostu had it right, this is NOT conservation even in the slightest, but restoration. But conservation has a positive connotation while restoration doesn’t. Words mean things, PWCC. WE SEE YOU.

[QUOTE=chezball;14646001]You didn't think a response from pwcc was going to make things better for them, did you?[/QUOTE]


I think people were expecting a better response. lol.

They obviously have a record of whom submitted these cards. I think most individuals would like to see more than a slap on the wrist.

If their going to slap their quality high end logo on everything. Perhaps they should also do a better job sorting everything coming through the door. It's easy to blame PSA as well ,but if their inspecting the quality with some of their listings... their at fault as well.


From their website :

On average, PWCC Certified cards have consistently sold for 130-200% of average market.

More profit for a FRACTION OF THE CARD. lol.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;14645780]This is my favorite part.


So long as PSA agrees or can't detect said removal. Because using any kind of solution to remove these substances is not allowed per PSA.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't address salt or earth stains. lol

Speculation is not considered evidence?

Or

Evidence is considered speculation...when the dollar value is high enough.

well. Apparently that is what we are all going to get. Hopefully, At some point this will all come crashing down with either and indictment or better yet some sort of restitution to all the poor saps that were duped out of a lot of money.

What a JOKE. There is really nothing else PWCC will say. Every thing that they say just shows their arrogance in the whole situation and they will NEVER admit wrongdoing.

All that can be done is to keep bumping threads, finding more altered cards they sell and hopefully at some point their impertinence to fraud gets outed with a big news outlet and the house of cards come crumbling down.

This is clearly not conservation. It is clearly restoration, which has many synonyms in common with the word...”alteration”.