Sports Card Companies/Individuals taking out PPP loans durning the Pandemic
 

[I]*All credit goes to @southpark_cards on IG for pointing this out. I will preface this by saying nothing illegal or nefarious looks to have been done here on the surface. These funds could very well have been used for legitimate purposes and a lot of it was during the beginning of the pandemic when there was a lot of uncertainty of what the future would hold. Lots of these guys seem to be sue happy so i'm not accusing anyone of anything here.[/I]

What I will say is taking out a PPP loan during a time when all these guys were constantly telling us about record sales, how much money they were making off cards (high end basketball stuff especially), it just seems odd that they'd also need government assistance. A lot of this may have also been forgiven without anything being paid back per the terms of the loans that were being given out. [URL="https://bit.ly/3iCexUp"]https://bit.ly/3iCexUp[/URL]

This is all publicly available info. You can search here: [URL="https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/"]https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/[/URL]

If you're not familiar with PPP loans look here: [URL="https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/covid-19-relief-options/paycheck-protection-program"]https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/covid-19-relief-options/paycheck-protection-program[/URL]

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52541881756_019a7d386b.jpg[/img]

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52542176239_3eee96e292.jpg[/img]

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52542176254_a83be486f6_z.jpg[/img]

Three Five Two is a company Geoff Wilson is the President of. [URL="https://www.threefivetwo.com/our-team"]https://www.threefivetwo.com/our-team[/URL] I don't know if there is any relation to his sports card endeavors, may very well not be any association. ([B]EDIT:[/B] confirmed there is no association to SCI other than Geoff being the president) It does seem odd to me that his company took in over 2 million in government assistance, the second million during the time he was paying half a million for a Jordan RC and 270k for a Lebron Refractor RC..
[URL="https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1501172&page=6"]https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1501172&page=6[/URL]

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52541881711_773376dc0c.jpg[/img]

With so many businesses failing during the pandemic and the sports card market seemingly unaffected or increasing in sales overall (at least from what we were told) this just seems odd. Am I wrong here?

[B]EDIT:[/B] Here's a post regarding Collectors Universe initially taking out 4 million via this program.
[URL="https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=15825994"]https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=15825994[/URL]

Article stating they returned the money: [URL="https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/which-companies-are-returning-their-ppp-loan-here-s-list-n1194566"]https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/which-companies-are-returning-their-ppp-loan-here-s-list-n1194566[/URL]
Maybe after some backlash? Lmk if anyone has any info or additional articles on this and i'll add them here.

If you have active federal student loans and can pay them, but are taking advantage of the deferment offered, are you any different than companies taking PPP who didn’t need it?

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18575617]If you have active federal student loans and can pay them, but are taking advantage of the deferment offered, are you any different than companies taking PPP who didn’t need it?[/QUOTE]

Are you asking me this question? I'm guessing this is more of a general statement, but I personally paid my student loans off in full over 10 years ago, including government loans.

[QUOTE=mindcycle;18575622]Are you asking me this question? I'm guessing this is more of a general statement, but I personally paid my student loans off in full over 10 years ago, including government loans.[/QUOTE]
Not a personal question. Just a general question.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18575624]Not a personal question. Just a general question.[/QUOTE]

Got ya, fair enough.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18575617]If you have active federal student loans and can pay them, but are taking advantage of the deferment offered, are you any different than companies taking PPP who didn’t need it?[/QUOTE]

Deferrals? Yes. Assuming that it's just a temporary pause and payment will resume in full.

Now if that amount gets forgiven, it all comes down to individual circumstances and if the application for PPP funds was made in good faith. We all know damn well that there were cases of people taking advantage of the program by giving false information. And while I have no idea of the details, the amounts that Geoff received raises some eyebrows.

[QUOTE=tjforce;18575673]Deferrals? Yes. Assuming that it's just a temporary pause and payment will resume in full.

Now if that amount gets forgiven, it all comes down to individual circumstances and if the application for PPP funds was made in good faith. We all know damn well that there were cases of people taking advantage of the program by giving false information. And while I have no idea of the details, the amounts that Geoff received raises some eyebrows.[/QUOTE]
Every month of deferment counts toward public service loan forgiveness. Does that change your opinion?

PPP was a government subsidy for keeping your employees employed. Being financially harmed by Covid was not a requirement to get funds. It was a terrible program, just like every other government handout.

[QUOTE=tjforce;18575673]And while I have no idea of the details, the amounts that Geoff received raises some eyebrows.[/QUOTE]

Yeah to say the least lol. Especially the second loan there approved in 2021 during a time period he was spending hundreds of thousands on cards..

To be fair, a lot of the other companies look to have applied for theirs at the beginning of the pandemic when there was still a good deal of uncertainty for any business.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18575708]PPP was a government subsidy for keeping your employees employed. Being financially harmed by Covid was not a requirement to get funds. It was a terrible program, just like every other government handout.[/QUOTE]

No doubt it was terrible. I'm just questioning the legitimacy of needing these funds during a time when lots of sports card figures were talking about record sales/income.

IDK.. Maybe don't take free handouts while there are actual businesses out there that truly need them..?

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18575708]Every month of deferment counts toward public service loan forgiveness. Does that change your opinion?

PPP was a government subsidy for keeping your employees employed. Being financially harmed by Covid was not a requirement to get funds. It was a terrible program, just like every other government handout.[/QUOTE]

Not if you don’t qualify for public service loan forgiveness.

But look, I don’t blame anyone for taking advantage of the programs offered to them, provided they are doing it legally. I take every tax break I am legally afforded, and everyone should too.

But it just brings us right back to whether or not these PPP loan applications were made truthfully. If you can’t see the difference between that and the people who were following the programs by the correct guidelines then I can’t help you.

[QUOTE=tjforce;18575734]But it just brings us right back to whether or not these PPP loan applications were made truthfully. If you can’t see the difference between that and the people who were following the programs by the correct guidelines then I can’t help you.[/QUOTE]
I agree. But there’s no evidence that any of the companies mentioned illegally took PPP. So to me, this is no different than complaining about companies taking full advantage of the tax code. It’s not DACW’s fault that the government is stupid and wanted to give a booming business over $800k.

[QUOTE=mindcycle;18575723]No doubt it was terrible. I'm just questioning the legitimacy of needing these funds during a time when lots of sports card figures were talking about record sales/income.

IDK.. Maybe don't take free handouts while there are actual businesses out there that truly need them..?[/QUOTE]
If you don’t take the handout, you are at a disadvantage to your competitors who do. This isn’t the fault of the companies, assuming they operated within the rules. This is the fault of the government. Name me one government handout program that benefits the people as intended, without unintended consequences, and isn’t abused by bad actors.

Wait -- Geoff doubled dipped in PPP money a year into the pandemic ... And his business is based in Atlanta Georgia ... And both payments were over $1 million dollars?

What am I missing here?

Waiting a year to dip into PPP could have allowed him to raise payroll costs.

On a similar topic, PSA (CU) initially took out a 4.2 million PPP loan but after getting publicly blasted, they returned the loan $.

There's several articles online but if anyone was interested, here's the blowout thread.
[url]https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=15825994[/url]

[QUOTE=mindcycle;18575612][I]*All credit goes to @southpark_cards on IG for pointing this out. [B]I will preface this by saying nothing illegal or nefarious looks to have been done here on the surface.[/B] These funds could very well have been used for legitimate purposes and a lot of it was during the beginning of the pandemic. Lots of these guys seem to be sue happy so i'm not accusing anyone of anything here.[/I]

What I will say is taking out a PPP loan during a time when all these guys were constantly telling us about record sales, how much money they were making off cards (high basketball stuff especially), it just seems odd that they'd also need government assistance. A lot of this may have also been forgiven without anything being paid back per the terms of the loans that were being given out. [/QUOTE]

The simple fact the loans were forgiven is nefarious.

Interesting though that he left Collectors Universe off. They got a $4 million loan, you know, during the time when they had a 10+million card backup. There's a lot of people in the collecting community who run LLC's and got PPP loans that were forgiven too. My guess is, majority of the "big players" wouldn't be so big without that little cash infusion.

It looks like the attempted hit piece on companies/people who got loans was limited to those he didn't like and he was just piling on. Couldn't be bothered to post his "friends" in the hobby who got them though.

[QUOTE=Blazed;18575759]The simple fact the loans were forgiven is nefarious.[/QUOTE]
Nefarious on the part of who?

[QUOTE=Blazed;18575759]The simple fact the loans were forgiven is nefarious.

Interesting though that he left Collectors Universe off. They got a $4 million loan, you know, during the time when they had a 10+million card backup. There's a lot of people in the collecting community who run LLC's and got PPP loans that were forgiven too. My guess is, majority of the "big players" wouldn't be so big without that little cash infusion.

It looks like the attempted hit piece on companies/people who got loans was limited to those he didn't like and he was just piling on. Couldn't be bothered to post his "friends" in the hobby who got them though.[/QUOTE]

I'm hoping you aren't referring to me. I have zero friends at Collectors Universe, lol.

I looked and couldn't find Collectors Universe or Collectors Holdings, Inc. (via their website) listed. If you can find them please let me know and i'll gladly up the OP. [URL="https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/"]https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/[/URL]

EDIT: Added some info on this to the end of the OP.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18575742]I agree. But there’s no evidence that any of the companies mentioned illegally took PPP. So to me, this is no different than complaining about companies taking full advantage of the tax code. It’s not DACW’s fault that the government is stupid and wanted to give a booming business over $800k.[/QUOTE]

There is none, but I will make the leap that I am suspicious about Geoff's payout here.

[QUOTE=fabiani12333;18575756]Wait -- Geoff doubled dipped in PPP money a year into the pandemic ... And his business is based in Atlanta Georgia ... And both payments were over $1 million dollars?

What am I missing here?

Waiting a year to dip into PPP could have allowed him to raise payroll costs.[/QUOTE]

Or he could have just sold some cards.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18575782]Nefarious on the part of who?[/QUOTE]

Look at the loans that were forgiven then look at the loans that weren't. Seems like the small businesses who needed them the most have to pay them back based on info publicly available.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18575742]I agree. [B]But there’s no evidence that any of the companies mentioned illegally took PPP[/B]. So to me, this is no different than complaining about companies taking full advantage of the tax code. It’s not DACW’s fault that the government is stupid and wanted to give a booming business over $800k.[/QUOTE]

Weak argument there. Of course it wasn't illegal, there were certain criteria requirements to be eligible to get the loans. But the government made it clear they wanted the money to get out fast and they were going off the honor system. Green light was given to "get what you can while we close our eyes, but be honest please".

[QUOTE=tjforce;18575790]There is none, but I will make the leap that I am suspicious about Geoff's payout here.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t know Geoff had this Three Five Two company before the post yesterday. I’m not sure if what he does with sports cards has anything to do with that company.

[QUOTE=Blazed;18575826]Look at the loans that were forgiven then look at the loans that weren't. Seems like the small businesses who needed them the most have to pay them back based on info publicly available.[/QUOTE]
Without knowing the details of a specific loan that was denied forgiveness, I don’t think you can draw any conclusions.

[QUOTE=mindcycle;18575784]I'm hoping you aren't referring to me. I have zero friends at Collectors Universe, lol.

I looked and couldn't find Collectors Universe or Collectors Holdings, Inc. (via their website) listed. If you can find them please let me know and i'll gladly up the OP. [URL="https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/"]https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/[/URL]

EDIT: Added some info on this to the end of the OP.[/QUOTE]

Nah. Referring to southpark.

But a lot of the people in the hobby who are idolized right now, who no one had ever heard of before COVID hit, got some nice size loans.

[QUOTE=Blazed;18575834]Weak argument there. Of course it wasn't illegal, there were certain criteria requirements to be eligible to get the loans. But the government made it clear they wanted the money to get out fast and they were going off the honor system. Green light was given to "get what you can while we close our eyes, but be honest please".[/QUOTE]
I don’t know what you’re trying to argue here. The government created yet another disaster free handout program. Companies used it. Did some do so illegally? We know they did. But for the card companies mentioned, did any of them do so? If not, this isn’t a story specific to these companies.

But I certainly enjoy discussing how stupid the program was.

What if the government was just subsidizing every form of “dumb money” investment?

It’s not like this wasn’t said on these very forums going back to the time these programs were announced.

Leverage and free money do crazy things to prices.