If Manny Ramirez had gone blind in 2008, would he be in the HOF?
 

I fell down a rabbit hole of 90s and early 2000’s hitters. Who was in the HOF (Kirby Puckett), who wasn’t (Manny, Albert Belle), etc etc. Manny was an absolute force behind the plate for a solid 10 year stretch. Was he a clown in the outfield? Sometimes. But some of that was ESPN making him the butt of jokes at times. And the stereotypes stuck.

Meanwhile, I look at the career of Kirby Puckett. Puckett was first ballot despite Manny being a significantly a more potent hitter in a similar timeframe that Kirby played.

I’m not sure if my point is that Manny should be in the HOF. He maybe shouldn’t be. But if Kirby basically got a pass for going blind when he was in his early/mid 30s, would Manny be in if he had gone blind at 34?

It seems weird that a full career arc handicaps Manny while a shortened arc may have benefited Kirby.

Maybe this is kind of like the Kurt Cobain effect. Where dying young made him a legend. We never got to see Kurt finish the arc where he got clean, found God, and joined Alter Bridge. I mean that jokingly. lol. But you get the point.

Are there any other weird scenarios with a guy getting in, partially, because their career was cut short from non professional forces?

Yes. But he did PEDs and he deserves to be out.

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He belongs in for sure

Puckett shouldn’t be in either if the so called “character clause” was adhered to.

I can still see Manny and his beat up pine tar covered batting helmet creating all sorts of havoc in the 2004 and 2007 playoffs.
Love him for that, and that walk off homer vs K Rod and the Angels was epic.

[QUOTE=Biohazarddfl;20162930]Yes. But he did PEDs and he deserves to be out.

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He got busted after the league implemented testing and punishment -- others from his era used prior to testing and still got in. There is no Hall of Fame eligibility rule that says you're disqualified for using PEDs, but he got officially punished by MLB for it and it makes it hard for voters to justify voting for him.

Puckett was one of if not the best hitter of his era and did it without PED's and in an era where Pitching dominated the game.

Manny played in the post strike era where players started juicing, and balls were doctored in order to bring fans back to the stadiums.

Whether roids weren't banned at the time or not, they still served their purpose of enhancing stat numbers along with the juiced balls.

He should be in the HOF regardless.

As the old saying goes… “he didn’t know whether to schitt or go blind…”

Manny chose the wrong one if the HOF was important to him. Shoulda gone blind.

Big fan, doesn't belong in the HOF.

[QUOTE=Biohazarddfl;20162930]Yes. But he did PEDs and he deserves to be out.

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Do you think Mike Trout [I]isn't[/I] on PEDs?

Or that let's say, <50-70% of current players aren't using PEDs? Just curious.

[QUOTE=Cracktoast;20163052]Puckett was one of if not the best hitter of his era and did it without PED's and in an era where Pitching dominated the game.

Manny played in the post strike era where players started juicing, and balls were doctored in order to bring fans back to the stadiums.

Whether roids weren't banned at the time or not, they still served their purpose of enhancing stat numbers along with the juiced balls.[/QUOTE]

The issue is that far more players past and present are on PEDs than you think or voters or the average person believes. To reach the top levels of sport and pinnacles within that top level, the vast majority of athletes are getting an edge however they can.

The difference between someone natural versus someone simply on testosterone let alone designer cocktails of steroids/HGH/recovery agents is not night and day, it's Earth and Pluto.

Have you not watched Icarus for example? There is a reason why ~90%+ of Olympians are on PEDs. The vast majority of MMA fighters, almost all football/NFL players (some positions don't "need" it), etc. It's just infuriating and also concerning how people can be so naive, ignorant, and unintelligent to think that someone like - Trout, Judge, Caminero, Soto, Schwarber, Raleigh, probably Ohtani, even soft guys like Devers, a Bichette, etc - aren't all most likely or possibly using PEDs.

Obviously there are some players who didn't use anything. But I think that is few and far between 80s onward. People seriously think Bonds/A-Rod/Manny aren't HoFers and are cheats but Pujols/Frank Thomas/Miguel Cabrera are and didn't use PEDs because they simply weren't caught? Ronald Acuna isn't a PED user because he wasn't "caught" using test/steroids but conveniently and randomly had gondatropin in his system which is post-cycle therapy after a steroid/test cycle? Sure thing.

[QUOTE=Tea10;20163083]The issue is that far more players past and present are on PEDs than you think or voters or the average person believes. To reach the top levels of sport and pinnacles within that top level, the vast majority of athletes are getting an edge however they can.

The difference between someone natural versus someone simply on testosterone let alone designer cocktails of steroids/HGH/recovery agents is not night and day, it's Earth and Pluto.

Have you not watched Icarus for example? There is a reason why ~90%+ of Olympians are on PEDs. The vast majority of MMA fighters, almost all football/NFL players (some positions don't "need" it), etc. It's just infuriating and also concerning how people can be so naive, ignorant, and unintelligent to think that someone like - Trout, Judge, Caminero, Soto, Schwarber, Raleigh, probably Ohtani, even soft guys like Devers, a Bichette, etc - aren't all most likely or possibly using PEDs.

Obviously there are some players who didn't use anything. But I think that is few and far between 80s onward. People seriously think Bonds/A-Rod/Manny aren't HoFers and are cheats but Pujols/Frank Thomas/Miguel Cabrera are and didn't use PEDs because they simply weren't caught? Ronald Acuna isn't a PED user because he wasn't "caught" using test/steroids but conveniently and randomly had gondatropin in his system which is post-cycle therapy after a steroid/test cycle? Sure thing.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agree, these people need their hand held in nearly all aspects of life and generally desire for some greater body to tell them what to think

Grown men who simply do not understand it is an entertainment product much akin to the WWE; its not that pure and neither are YOU

If someone declared to me in person that Aaron Judge (or any of the other guys you mentioned) was NOT on peds i'm not sure i could maintain decorum

[QUOTE=Cracktoast;20163052]Puckett was one of if not the best hitter of his era and did it without PED's and in an era where Pitching dominated the game.[/QUOTE]

Uh, you sure Puckett wasn't juicing?:

Bill James certainly thought he was: [url]https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/7421/lies-damned-lies-the-age-of-suspicion/[/url]

He's the only player to both hit 0 home runs in a full season and 30 home runs in a full season:

1984: 0 HR, 583 PA
1985: 4 HR, 744 PA
1986: 31 HR, 723 PA

Plus, he was noticeably quite muscular -- here's a commercial of him pumping iron in a 1993 Nike commercial: [url]https://youtu.be/jErOH_RaJjI[/url]

[QUOTE=Tea10;20163077]Do you think Mike Trout [I]isn't[/I] on PEDs?

Or that let's say, <50-70% of current players aren't using PEDs? Just curious.[/QUOTE]You're missing the point. He tested positive

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[QUOTE=Biohazarddfl;20163125]You're missing the point. He tested positive

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Who cares? If Mike Trout is on steroids/HGH aka PEDs, just because he hasn't "tested positive" means nothing. It's too easy to beat the tests and these sport orgs don't even really test seriously. There was a witch hunt in the 90s/00s because guys were huge and going nuts with it.

Barry Bonds was never tested positive by the MLB. There were only BALCO tests done that were later discovered, a 3rd party lab/company, and were never accepted in court.

Either way, obviously Bonds used PEDs. And I think it's pretty obvious Mike Trout is on PEDs personally. It seems rather childish to not even suspect that someone is using without testing. You seem to not understand how easy it is to beat testing.

Google Yoel Romero. Former UFC fighter, Strikeforce, MMA fighter. Do you think he's clean? He's never tested positive. So I guess he is.

[QUOTE=Tea10;20163210]Who cares? If Mike Trout is on steroids/HGH aka PEDs, just because he hasn't "tested positive" means nothing. It's too easy to beat the tests and these sport orgs don't even really test seriously. There was a witch hunt in the 90s/00s because guys were huge and going nuts with it.

Barry Bonds was never tested positive by the MLB. There were only BALCO tests done that were later discovered, a 3rd party lab/company, and were never accepted in court.

Either way, obviously Bonds used PEDs. And I think it's pretty obvious Mike Trout is on PEDs personally. It seems rather childish to not even suspect that someone is using without testing. You seem to not understand how easy it is to beat testing.

Google Yoel Romero. Former UFC fighter, Strikeforce, MMA fighter. Do you think he's clean? He's never tested positive. So I guess he is.[/QUOTE]Very easy to beat the tests, especially when you are Bonds and a company is literally creating drugs for you that testers wouldn't even know to test for. That's why Bonds isnt in. Ramirez isn't in due to failed tests. It's not a witch hunt, it's common knowledge

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[QUOTE=Tea10;20163210]Who cares? If Mike Trout is on steroids/HGH aka PEDs, just because he hasn't "tested positive" means nothing. It's too easy to beat the tests and these sport orgs don't even really test seriously. There was a witch hunt in the 90s/00s because guys were huge and going nuts with it.

Barry Bonds was never tested positive by the MLB. There were only BALCO tests done that were later discovered, a 3rd party lab/company, and were never accepted in court.

Either way, obviously Bonds used PEDs. And I think it's pretty obvious Mike Trout is on PEDs personally. It seems rather childish to not even suspect that someone is using without testing. You seem to not understand how easy it is to beat testing.

Google Yoel Romero. Former UFC fighter, Strikeforce, MMA fighter. Do you think he's clean? He's never tested positive. So I guess he is.[/QUOTE]

"Guilty until proven innocent" isn't how things work, otherwise OJ would have been jailed for life. We all suspect these guys were juicing, but it was never proven, so as childish as that seems, it's the way it goes.

[QUOTE=Tea10;20163210]Who cares? If Mike Trout is on steroids/HGH aka PEDs, just because he hasn't "tested positive" means nothing. It's too easy to beat the tests and these sport orgs don't even really test seriously. There was a witch hunt in the 90s/00s because guys were huge and going nuts with it.

Barry Bonds was never tested positive by the MLB. There were only BALCO tests done that were later discovered, a 3rd party lab/company, and were never accepted in court.

Either way, obviously Bonds used PEDs. And I think it's pretty obvious Mike Trout is on PEDs personally. It seems rather childish to not even suspect that someone is using without testing. You seem to not understand how easy it is to beat testing.

Google Yoel Romero. Former UFC fighter, Strikeforce, MMA fighter. Do you think he's clean? He's never tested positive. So I guess he is.[/QUOTE]

Yoel Romero has absolutely tested positive. Please know what you’re talking about next time.

[QUOTE=Noles939913;20162956]Puckett shouldn’t be in either if the so called “character clause” was adhered to.[/QUOTE]If social media was around back then, he absolutely would not be

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I asked the Bat Flip Committee

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They elected Manny

[QUOTE=Noles939913;20163230]Yoel Romero has absolutely tested positive. Please know what you’re talking about next time.[/QUOTE]

That's hilarious. He never tested positive for any anabolic steroids first off, secondly here's the Gemini summary of his only positive test:

[B]In 2016, Yoel Romero accepted a 6-month suspension from USADA after testing positive for the banned growth hormone-releasing compound Ibutamoren. The violation was deemed to be caused by a contaminated supplement, a finding later validated in a 2019 lawsuit where Romero was awarded $27.5 million, though it was largely uncollectable[/B]

It was from a tainted supplement and he won the lawsuit and 28 million dollars. Great point, thanks. So where does that leave us? Does he hypothetically make the HoF as a baseball player? I'd say, yes. Pretty obviously. Do you know what you're talking about?

[QUOTE=Biohazarddfl;20163218]Very easy to beat the tests, especially when you are Bonds and a company is literally creating drugs for you that testers wouldn't even know to test for. That's why Bonds isnt in.[B] Ramirez isn't in due to failed tests.[/B] It's not a witch hunt, it's common knowledge

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Sorry, why isn't Manny Ramirez in the HoF if not for failed tests? He's a 2x WS champion, WS MVP, 15th all-time with 555 HRs in the 500 club, a career .300 hitter at .312, and has 69.3 WAR.

Everyone around his HR total is in the HoF besides the positive testers in the steroid era, and everyone around his WAR is in the hall to. I'm confused.

[QUOTE=Triple B;20163228]"Guilty until proven innocent" isn't how things work, otherwise OJ would have been jailed for life. We all suspect these guys were juicing, but it was never proven, so as childish as that seems, it's the way it goes.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, I respect the logical response. I don't believe in guilty until proven innocent either, not how it works in this country. But at the same time, I feel as though only lazy/dumb players are punished for positive tests when far more are using and getting away with it.

I'm sure Derrick Henry, JJ Watt, TJ Watt, Aaron Donald, Chris Jones, and AJ Brown --- for example, for the NFL probably have 0 combined positive steroid tests. Mike Trout also, does not. I think the odds of none of these guys using steroids is less than the odds of one of us winning the powerball if we all played it together once. The odds of even more than one or even one being natural is probably very low.

I think the voters over-penalize in baseball to archaic, ridiculous degrees. Hey, surgery and nutrition and supplements and training got a lot better over the past 60-120 years too. If someone can recover from Tommy John this decade where as a 60s-80s player really can't - ditto ACLs, shoulders, etc, then how is that "fair" either. It's an exogenuous factor.